re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: "Janet" when I was talking about quality, I was thinking of a local breeder who was breeding some very straight stifled mares, to an unproven stallion. The stallion, structurally, was quite acceptable although we really know nothing about his trainability or temperament. But a couple of those mares had some serious issues with hind limb structure and I am pretty certain they would not hold up to plowing even half a day, or a 20 mile trail ride, and they would never cut it in the dressage ring. About the only purpose they could fulfill was to be a fuzzy yard ornament. As I conduct a breeding program with a relatively small population of sheep, I understand the value of genetic diversity, but there is always room for culling, and breeding those mares really did nothing to help the Fjord breed. ** My purpose in joining this thread was to suggest that Fjord stallion owners need to share in the 'cost' of this poorer horse market if there are to be more quality Fjords produced. I do not have the numbers, but I'm sure someone here can crank some numbers as to how many foals per year we need to keep the breed afloat. Right now all of the burdon is on the Fjord mare owner. In all other breeds, stallion owners have lowered their fees to reflect the reduced value of foals. But I have not seen such a reduction in the Fjord world. With $1000 stud fees, another $300 in mare care, and approx $250 in vet fees, a foal needs to fetch $1550 just for hitting the ground (and I did not include the cost of keeping the mare). Meanwhile one can buy a fully trained Fjord for $1500 if you shop around. When the market first dropped in 2008, I can understand maintaining status quo in hopes things would turn around soon, but it has been 7 years now. I think it is safe to say this lower value horse market is the new norm. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: [Bulk] re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: Steve McIlree On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 10:51 AM, Gail Russell wrote: Gail (who clicked her three little dots dutifully, and thought, just for a > moment, that she saw flash by the words, "click here so Steve will draw and > quarter you, thank you from your friendly Google staff." > âAhh! Those folks at Google are ever so helpful! -- Steve It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.-- Aristotle 384-322 BC Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: [Bulk] re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: Gail Russell > The term "quality" can mean different things to different people. Perhaps > we're overdue to > redefine exactly what it does mean.. in the scope of long term breed > survival; being certain that we're > not inbred painting ourselves into a genetic drift corner of homozygosis. What this argues for is "different people" so you can get "different horses." Like, people who still farm with Fjords, or people who want therapy horses instead of forward dressage horses, or people who want short horses as children's horses, or people who want caisson horses for military burials at Arlington (the Rose Parade is nothingnow there is a project!...to displace the Percherons...we've already got the uniformity, plus a military buzz cut, and a much crisper look). Gail (who clicked her three little dots dutifully, and thought, just for a moment, that she saw flash by the words, "click here so Steve will draw and quarter you, thank you from your friendly Google staff." Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: [Bulk] re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" Ruthie, one can still be choosy about quality and maintain genetic diversity. Janet Yes, one could do that. But more than likely it doesn't deliberately happen a lot. Most often it is a choice of a few hyped up stud's because that is what we have been programmed toward--> the blue ribbon. That special stud may have already been used too many times and/or is related to multiple other hyped up studs that were overly used. In our quest for the crème d la crème.. the gene pool could have been incrementally chiseled down to a particular few bloodlines. The science of population genetics mandate an even gender pool--half mares and half (unrelated) studs. The term "quality" can mean different things to different people. Perhaps we're overdue to redefine exactly what it does mean.. in the scope of long term breed survival; being certain that we're not inbred painting ourselves into a genetic drift corner of homozygosis. Ruthie Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: "Janet" Ruthie, one can still be choosy about quality and maintain genetic diversity. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: Steve McIlree I am not at all sure why Google has chosen to refer to "trimmed content" in the tool tip for the three little dots. It would have been better to have it say "Click here to show what's going to be included along with your reply that probably really should be trimmed". But then that would have made for a very unwieldy tool tip. â -- Steve It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.-- Aristotle 384-322 BC On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 11:48 PM, Gail Russell wrote: So...you got the so-called "trimmed content" > â,,,â > one has to go to the trouble of deleting > it, even if it is labelled as "trimmed content." Counterintuitive. > â Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: Gail Russell So...you got the so-called "trimmed content" as a repeat of the previous message? I was unable to see the offending "non-trimmed content," but I gather you could. In which case, one has to go to the trouble of deleting it, even if it is labelled as "trimmed content." Counterintuitive. Gail This message is from: Steve McIlree âWRONG!!! Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: Steve McIlree âWRONG!!! -- Steve It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.-- Aristotle 384-322 BC On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 1:23 PM, Gail Russell wrote: Am trying this WITHOUT hitting the 3 little dots. My "dot section" at the > bottom of the e-mail indicates that what is behind it is "trimmed content." > I think this means that I do not need to trim that unless I want to add > some of the old content to my reply. We will see. â Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: Gail Russell gen·o·type ËjenÉËtÄ«p,ËjÄnÉËtÄ«p/ *noun* BIOLOGY 1. *1*. the genetic constitution of an individual organism. *verb* 1. *1*. investigate the genetic constitution of (an individual organism). "the person appointed will be responsible for maintaining and genotyping many different lines of zebra fish" So...what about dog breeders who are doing genetic testing for everything under the sun, while preserving the phenotype that wins them ribbons. Would that work? (I think I remember you saying once before, "NO," because we cannot test for a broad enough set of genetic markers? Gail On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 2:08 PM, ruth bushnell wrote: > This message is from: "ruth bushnell" > > > ...<>...Ruthie, how do we follow the path you are talking about having > huge numbers > of horses that are physical or temperament disasters? Seems like the best > idea would be to bring back the sausage factory down the street, as they > have in Norway ?...<> > I do not think our economy will ever again allow massive > numbers of horses to be bred and live long lives, no matter their quality. > It does seem like a culling system is in order. Ruthie, do you think the > old Norwegian culling system would have worked...with maybe more emphasis > on temperament and working ability, and less on good looks and perfect > conformation. <> > > Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com > > > > > WE PROBABLY shouldn't go there, to the sausage topic, hah. > > Now this is sacrilegious, no doubt, but more than likely proverbial Norway > knew less > about maintaining a genetically balanced gene pool than we currently > appear to know today. > In fact, much of our misguided breeding dogma came on down from that era. > > Of course it will be argued that they have done a splendid job of bringing > our beloved Fjords > down to us today, and while this is true, they could have done better yet > in preserving all original > blood strands, had they been given the same genetic technology that we > have available to us today. > > Through DNA mapping and professional genetic breeding schemes, we could > advance the breed > survival expectancy far beyond the hapless course we are set upon > today--that of selective > breeding for phenotype only without thought for future genotype, and the > breed's long term > survival through genetic diversity. > > Ruthie > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" ...<>...Ruthie, how do we follow the path you are talking about having huge numbers of horses that are physical or temperament disasters? Seems like the best idea would be to bring back the sausage factory down the street, as they have in Norway ?...<> I do not think our economy will ever again allow massive numbers of horses to be bred and live long lives, no matter their quality. It does seem like a culling system is in order. Ruthie, do you think the old Norwegian culling system would have worked...with maybe more emphasis on temperament and working ability, and less on good looks and perfect conformation. <> Gail Russell g...@zeliga.com WE PROBABLY shouldn't go there, to the sausage topic, hah. Now this is sacrilegious, no doubt, but more than likely proverbial Norway knew less about maintaining a genetically balanced gene pool than we currently appear to know today. In fact, much of our misguided breeding dogma came on down from that era. Of course it will be argued that they have done a splendid job of bringing our beloved Fjords down to us today, and while this is true, they could have done better yet in preserving all original blood strands, had they been given the same genetic technology that we have available to us today. Through DNA mapping and professional genetic breeding schemes, we could advance the breed survival expectancy far beyond the hapless course we are set upon today--that of selective breeding for phenotype only without thought for future genotype, and the breed's long term survival through genetic diversity. Ruthie Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: Gail Russell Ah, yes. I assume there is the same problem with Pembroke Welsh Corgis as they begin to select carrier and DM gene free dogs. (Degenerative Myopathy, I think). Ruthie, how do we follow the path you are talking about having huge numbers of horses that are physical or temperament disasters? Seems like the best idea would be to bring back the sausage factory down the street, as they have in Norway ? I do not think our economy will ever again allow massive numbers of horses to be bred and live long lives, no matter their quality. It does seem like a culling system is in order. Ruthie, do you think the old Norwegian culling system would have worked...with maybe more emphasis on temperament and working ability, and less on good looks and perfect conformation. (The other thing to think about is that horses are living a long time, and a conformational defect is now living on for 15 to 20 years in an Adequan-laced pasture pet ...instead of being euthanized. Ask me how I knowwith the $50 a month maintenance dosed 25 year old QH in the backyard who has always had bad hocks due to being post legged, plus an early roping history. By the way, my vet says that the dirty little secret about injectable Adequan is that, in many horses, it does not last a month.) I have an interesting story about genetic selection in horses. Ever heard the phrase "crazy Paint Horse?" A friend was telling me about her aunt who allowed her horses to run free on BLM (or possibly, Forestry) land. The woman raised Paint horses and sold the foals for good money. She would just go out and collect the foals in the early winter and raise them up a year or two more and sell them. Well, BLM/Forestry was having problems with protected mountain lions in California getting into trouble. They would trap the troublemakers, and then turn them loose on the woman's grazing ground. Pretty soon, she started losing foalsbut not all of them. The nutty ones with the short flight distances were surviving because they bolted when they saw something moving in the bushes. Pretty soon, all of her stock was trending toward nutty Am trying this WITHOUT hitting the 3 little dots. My "dot section" at the bottom of the e-mail indicates that what is behind it is "trimmed content." I think this means that I do not need to trim that unless I want to add some of the old content to my reply. We will see. Gail On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 10:06 AM, ruth bushnell wrote: > This message is from: "ruth bushnell" > > > This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" > The article stresses > 'Quality is better' and you can do so much with two or three good quality > mares, bred to the best studs. This article was written by Lynn Weishaar, > who is a rancher and auctioneer. ... Mary Ofjord > > > The downside of that (quality) mindset is that directional selection is > based on line-breeding.. > which is just plain old fashioned in-breeding.. which long-term results in > health anomalies; > reproduction issues and compromised immunity. (to name a few) > > Who would be the best judge of "quality" offspring.. ? > > Why, a genetic diversity professional of course. > > Yes, it's the same old song from this corner.. I am more convinced than > ever that our > priorities have been skewed by the horse world--the Horse Fancy, the show > world; > those policies and entities which are espousing an archaic ideology of > eugenics. > > The more common FJ stud might very well be of more value in genetic vigor > than the > over priced stud which has been created through line-breeding. (don't > forget it is the > matador stud which has ruined some breeds) > > The science is there for anyone to see, that smaller breeds are "hell > bent" on self-destruction, > be it dogs or horses, through selectively reducing their gene pool in the > name of "quality." > > Ruth Bushnell > NW MT US > > > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: "ruth bushnell" This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" The article stresses 'Quality is better' and you can do so much with two or three good quality mares, bred to the best studs. This article was written by Lynn Weishaar, who is a rancher and auctioneer. ... Mary Ofjord The downside of that (quality) mindset is that directional selection is based on line-breeding.. which is just plain old fashioned in-breeding.. which long-term results in health anomalies; reproduction issues and compromised immunity. (to name a few) Who would be the best judge of "quality" offspring.. ? Why, a genetic diversity professional of course. Yes, it's the same old song from this corner.. I am more convinced than ever that our priorities have been skewed by the horse world--the Horse Fancy, the show world; those policies and entities which are espousing an archaic ideology of eugenics. The more common FJ stud might very well be of more value in genetic vigor than the over priced stud which has been created through line-breeding. (don't forget it is the matador stud which has ruined some breeds) The science is there for anyone to see, that smaller breeds are "hell bent" on self-destruction, be it dogs or horses, through selectively reducing their gene pool in the name of "quality." Ruth Bushnell NW MT US Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
RE: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: "Mary Ofjord" While the Fjord number may be reclining, a recent article in Western Horseman tends to say differently "Sales prices are up right now because people are looking for a quality horse and not just anything to ride." The article goes on to say that the registrations have taken a downturn, then the first thing we do is improve the quality of horses. The industry has seen a lot of improvement through less breeding. The article stresses 'Quality is better' and you can do so much with two or three good quality mares, bred to the best studs. This article was written by Lynn Weishaar, who is a rancher and auctioneer. And, yes, the stud fees for the Fjords are typically higher than for a top quality QH stallion. Just food for thought. Mary Ofjord North Coast Services, LLC 218-387-1879 This message is from: "Janet" This message is from: "Ursula Jensen" With the economic decline and the passage of time the number of Fjords being foaled each year is down. Just an observation-food for thought. Brian Jensen Yet the price of stud fees in the Fjord breed remains at $1000 or higher, and at least one owner will not allow live cover, driving the cost of breeding up even higher. Stud fees in most other breeds are considerably lower. Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
re: decline in Fjord foaling numbers
This message is from: "Janet" This message is from: "Ursula Jensen" With the economic decline and the passage of time the number of Fjords being foaled each year is down. Just an observation-food for thought. Brian Jensen As a person who owns three quality Fjord mares since 1997 with the intention to raise a foal each year to sell as a young green broke horse, I stopped breeding back in 2008 when the horse market crashed along with the economy and also due to the ceasation of horse slaughter, which led to a surplus of horses on the market.The word at the trail heads is to lock your trailer as you might find it full of horses when you return from the rideso low is the value of horses, even trained ones, that most are given away. Yet the price of stud fees in the Fjord breed remains at $1000 or higher, and at least one owner will not allow live cover, driving the cost of breeding up even higher. Stud fees in most other breeds are considerably lower. So the only people I know of that are breeding Fjords typically picked up their stock at various auctions and just run an unproven stallion with a herd of unproven mares. Unless the cost of breeding quality horses comes down, this is where future Fjords are coming from. I wish my pockets were deeper and I could just carry on in the interest of the breed without regard to the return, but I live on a shepherd's wages, and the horses have to pay their own way. Janet Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Re: Decline in Fjord Foaling numbers
This message is from: Kathleen Spiegel The downturn hit all horse breeders I think. I do the Coggins testing for many of the vets in SE Idaho. Over the last three years, it seems a large portion of the horses were marked for export to the Canadian Meat Packing plants ( Idaho borders Canada and Montana, routes to Canada). I was doing 2-3,000 coggins a year just in this area. Luckily I did not see Fjords come through. this dropped the price of good horses of all breeds to a ridiculously low range. I have seen an upsurge in interest recently and have sold three nice offspring ( all in the 4-5 year range) at relatively low prices but to good homes, but due to the markets have not been breeding any for about four years. I still have a Gjest/Maryka Stallion and four brood mares and am considering breeding one or two this year. All things are cyclical but when it come to it horses are a luxury and in a poor economy are not in demand. I do not think it is a function of the breed, just overall bad times. Hopefully the rising economy will bring interest back. On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 10:50 AM, Ursula Jensen wrote: > This message is from: "Ursula Jensen" > > > With the economic decline and the passage of time the number of Fjords > being > foaled each year is down. Europe has been experiencing similar declines in > their foaling rates. > > A noted Western trainer mentioned to me that a lot of good Western Fjord > stallions are now gone or gelded. Prominent Western Fjord breeders have now > retired and sold off their mares. > > Two of our most active brood mares are nearing the end of their career, and > some of our Fjord family are approaching retirement. This all a natural > progression with time but gives me pause to think about the Fjord future as > a breed, in America. I am hoping for a new younger generation of Fjord > owners and breeders to step forward and continue on with the breed. > > Just an observation-food for thought. Brian Jensen > > Important FjordHorse List Links: > Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e > FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw > FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
Decline in Fjord Foaling numbers
This message is from: "Ursula Jensen" With the economic decline and the passage of time the number of Fjords being foaled each year is down. Europe has been experiencing similar declines in their foaling rates. A noted Western trainer mentioned to me that a lot of good Western Fjord stallions are now gone or gelded. Prominent Western Fjord breeders have now retired and sold off their mares. Two of our most active brood mares are nearing the end of their career, and some of our Fjord family are approaching retirement. This all a natural progression with time but gives me pause to think about the Fjord future as a breed, in America. I am hoping for a new younger generation of Fjord owners and breeders to step forward and continue on with the breed. Just an observation-food for thought. Brian Jensen Important FjordHorse List Links: Subscription Management: http://tinyurl.com/5msa7e FH-L Archives: http://tinyurl.com/rcepw FH_L Shirts: http://tinyurl.com/8yky94l
