Re: Running W
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi Janet, Thanks for being a good enough sport to share your experience and the things you learned from it. You made some excellent points in your Running W post (i.e. buying too many horses, wrong saddle, wrong harness, etc.) Can I sum them all up with one thought? Don't buy anything you have little knowledge about before consulting an impartial expert. This is a bit of a pet peeve of mine since as a veterinarian I commonly see people who have been sold a horse that is not really fitting for them. I'm not necessarily saying you got the wrong horses, but perhaps if you had spoken with a trainer who warned you how long it was really going to take and how expensive it might end up being, you would have purchased fewer horses. (It probably would have had to have been a trainer that was not a candidate for training your horses, to get an impartial opinion). Also, perhaps that trainer would have suggested that you, being inexperienced at driving, purchase experienced Fjords rather than green. Further, that trainer could have suggested exactly what you should look for in a harness and a cart, and could have tried a number of different saddles on your horses in an effort to find a kind that worked best. I hope everyone sees what I'm getting at. As a breeder I think I can get away with saying this. If you know nothing or next to nothing about horses, you are really taking a risk believing what the seller tells you about that animal. As a veterinarian again, the list of things people tell me the seller told them to explain away a limp or a bump, etc, is endless. For instance, he just got kicked yesterday, he's just a little tenderfooted from walking on the rocks, his eye runs like that all the time - I think it's allergies. All these sound very plausible, don't they. How can someone who knows virtually nothing about horses have any idea whether it's a minor problem that really did just happen like the seller says, or whether it's a serious problem that's been going on for a long time? Well, there is a way. Get an impartial, expert opinion. Arrange a veterinary prepurchase exam. If you are buying a used car and you don't know anything about cars, don't you have somebody look at it who knows something about them? If you are buying a harness and cart and know nothing about them, doesn't it make sense to take somebody with you who does? Unless you know the seller very well, you have no idea if they're being honest with you or they're just telling you what they think you want to hear. And in their defense, they may not even know what you really need, if you don't know yourself. So they just sell you a cart that they think is a good cart. And since I'm probably getting myself in hot water with anyone who's ever sold a horse or a cart, etc, let me really do it right. Don't ask your friend and the tack store owner; Ask someone who really has experience in the area. I honestly believe that the veterinarian is the third person who gets called when a person has a non-emergency problem with a horse. First they ask their friend/neighbor if they've ever seen anything like that. Then they ask the feed or tack store owner. Finally, several days later, when the horse still isn't any better, they call the vet. Now I'm not knocking friends and feed and tack store owners, but I am knocking their advice. As sincere as it is, very often it is not the best advice. For instance, how many of you have heard that you need to let the air get to a wound after it's been bandaged for a while so it can dry out and heal? That is absolutely, 100% wrong. Almost without exception, wounds heal better under a bandage. A moist environment is better for healing, and the bandage helps keep the wound clean, and decreases the amount of proud flesh that forms. Or how about using various ointments, sprays, and powders on wounds? In our area, the local favorites are Wonder Dust and some kind of Purple Spray. If I, as a horse owner in North Carolina, called a friend and asked what I should put on a wound, most likely that's what I would hear. Usually the names sound good - especially Wonder Dust. Sounds like it could heal anything, doesn't it? What the wonder really is, though, is that wounds ever heal with that stuff on them! It eats away healing tissue rather than promoting healing. And the purple spray is harsh and makes a big mess! Most wounds heal best if they can be cleaned well and then bandaged either with a very mild antiseptic ointment, or nothing at all on the wound. Anyhow, hope this will remind us all to seek the advice of someone who has experience before we buy something (and not from the person who's trying to sell you the whatever - they have too much at stake to be completely impartial and look out for YOUR best interests). Brian Jacobsen, DVM Norwegian Fjordhest Ranch Salisbury, North Carolina
Re: Running W
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In a message dated 11/30/99 8:08:55 Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Not having fun on my Fjord yet but hopfull and hanging in there Janet in the bueautiful Black Hills of South Dakota. That positive attitude will get you far. You may want to do to yourself the same thing you do with a horse in training. Go back to the last level you were comfortable in. And work from there, creating a good base. Some of my friends have told me they had to do EVERYTHING right at a walk before they were allowed to trot, EVERYTHING right at a trot before allowed to canter, etc. etc. It was a year before they were cantering. It is appalling the way some professionals try to rush you through the process. After 10 years away from horses, I started taking lessons again, back in 1994. The trainer had me jumping xs in my second lesson!!! I told her I really wanted to develop my seat and balance more before I did this. She said Nonsense, go jump!. I stopped taking lessons with her when I watched another student protest that a jump was too high for her confidence level. She was told to jump it. The horse crashed through it, falling. The girl broke her collarbone right in front of me. You had 2 very good quotes. fool his money and rider error, not horse. Another quote to add is I have time. Good luck, and keep hanging in there! Pamela
Running W
This message is from: Robert Merkle [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was the one that mentioned the use of a running w last spring. A driving trainer mentioned that he would dress the horse in padded clothes so that they would not get hurt. I think it's use sounded cruel but after visiting with many drivers at events last summer they knew its use was common. Martha didn't want to use it on big T because he was very calm, quiet, and had a very good whoa every time in the arena. As far as not using the breeching We were not on the hill when it happened. Martha mentioned afterward that she was glad he didn't have it on because he may have gotten hurt worse when the cart caught. It has just amazed me since I bought these beautiful horses how many costly mistakes I've made. Two sayings come to mind that I have come to hate. A fool and her money - and It's never the horse it's always the rider I did ask a lot of people lots of questions but I think that there are so many variables with horses that advise is hard to give. Here are some of my mistakes and if it saves even one of you some of the heart ache that its caused me then it will be worth it. 1. Buying more than one horse because I had been told by several breeders they are so easy to train and your children will love them. 2. Thinking that finding a trainer that would like to train this breed would be easy in cowboy country. 2yrs and $6000 Later 3. Buying that ready made saddle for $1000+after reassurance that semi quarter horse bars were right then being told later that they would buck if a saddle pinches their withers. Now I bought a Ortho Fex $2000 that I really like thanks to all the info from this List 4. Getting my cart before the horse so to speak. When Martha saw my harness she said who sold you that ! It's far too light for training a horse of such power. One spook and he could pop that thin cheap leather and have a bad wreck. She also said I shouldn't have bought a meadowbrook cart but a training cart --easy enter and quick exit!( I exited quick alright -- flew right over the front doing about 20 mph) So she let me use her very sturdy harness. There thats enough whining for today. I actually don't consider myself a whiner. My husband wants me to sell them but I am as stubborn as a Fjord and don't want to give up . And can't bare the thought that they might get mistreated on down the line. I think I'll go call the new trainer/riding instructor , take some more lessons on my girls experienced QH then when my confidence is there I'll try my Fjords again. Not having fun on my Fjord yet but hopfull and hanging in there Janet in the bueautiful Black Hills of South Dakota.
Re: driving training and the running W
This message is from: Starfire Farm, L.L.C. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I agree with Jean E. reference the use of a Running W. This device, which was described so well by Jean, is something to be used as a last resort. Dropping a horse to it's knees, the way it is usually done with a Running W, only creates more fear in the horse's mind, and destroys any trust you might have been able to build. Laying a horse down, using any training method, should be used only in extreme circumstances, and is done very carefully. The intent is to help place the horse into a position (laying down) where it will learn that it will not be harmed by humans while in a vulnerable position. I my conversations with people who use a Running W (usually draft horse trainers or old style cowboys who use snubbing posts, etc, to break horses), the Running W is used to throw a horse to its knees to give it a good, solid, Whoa. Think about what kind of fear that would generate. Maybe the horse learns to stop, but is it due to a thorough understanding of what is being asked, or because the horse is afraid of falling? Which type of horse would you prefer to have at the end of your lines? Heike Bean's book is thorough and excellent. The only thing I disagree about is her use of the sliding rein, which is similar to draw reins, to help a horse to go round. This equipment should be used only to help retrain a difficult horse who can't be corrected with good hands. Carol's video is also very good, as it shows all of the steps you should take before you ever think about hitching. She also emphasizes thinking about safety, and how dangerous driving is. Driving folks are full of stories about runaways! This is not meant to be a slam against driving. It is a blast! But you must take the time to train your horse properly, and without fear, to avoid being one of those people who have a story to tell about a wreck. We're looking forward to the Stock Show this week. I can't believe we only have a few more days. Will give a blow by blow description when we return! Thanks, everyone, for your detailed information on Nelson Waterers! It will help a lot! Beth Starfire Farm (we had a dusting of snow today, but it's windy - yuk!)
Running W
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I found the following message a little disturbing, I hope it wasnt meant the way I read it. I know that there were many responses concerning the safety and/or cruelty of this method of training, and I am sure most of the folks know exactly what a Running W is. I also think that in very rare cases where the horse and/or persons are going to get hurt, as a last resort, this is truly a sure-fire way to get the horse to obey. But certainly not one that should be practiced regularly. L.Day This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Joel a harman) A running W is like any other training aid - dangerous if placed in the hands of someone that doesn't know what they are doing. A running W is meant to be used on a horse that has a problem with the concept of whoa. I have used it on one fjord I owned - a 7 yr old range gelding with no training on him. He just couldn't understand what whoa meant. If you have an occasion to use it make sure you are using a cotton rope as it stretches. Awful handy to have someone helping you. Why not take the easy way out buy trained horses if you don't know what your doing. Expect to pay more for a trained horse make sure it will do what you want it to do. It may do great with the owner or trainer but YOU are the one that will use it.
Re: running W
This message is from: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hear, Hear Lisa ! I agree. L. Day If anyone used a training method like that on one of my horses, or on anyone elses horse in my presence, it would be good if that trainer was the one RUNNING. FROM ME. Lisa P.
Running W. Bad movies
This message is from: Jon A. Ofjord [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jean Ernest said:Oh Boy! I myself would tend to avoid a trainer who regularly uses a running W in his training program! I couldn't agree with you more Jean. Thanks for speaking out on that subject. As an aside from this, my husband and I were watching an old John Wayne video tonight called The Desert Trail, made about 1935. As the horsemen were running their horses (always at full speed), Jon said:I think they just killed a horse! As we ran the scene by again we could see a horse in full gallop suddenly take a flat out fall, with its neck stretched out and the legs behind it. It did look like they just killed a horse. Upon closer examination, at slow speed, we could see the horse had been tripped! All of a sudden his back legs were jerked out from underneath him. These aren't the type of falls you see movie horses take today with the head turned back and landing on the shoulder. Further on in the movie we noticed two other falls where the horse had been tripped. It looked like they had a trip wire that would catch the horse's back legs and send it sprawling. I'm glad we don't have to see that kind of cruelty subjected on our movie horses now days. It's no wonder movies now have a disclaimer stating no animals were injured during the shooting. If you look at the way those people rode their horses, it makes you shudder. Lots of jerking on the mouth and flapping arms and always running full out. We use to call that kind of riding Cowboying around. I doubt if any real cowboys would ever treat their animals that way. Enough of this diatribe! Mary O. from northern Minnesota, where its still -15 below zero!
Re: driving training and the running W
This message is from: Reena Giola [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jean Ernest wrote: What it consists of is a rope running from a surcingle down to a hobble around one front foot, back to a ring at the bottom of the surcingle (bellyband) back to a hobble around the other front foot and back up to a ring on the other side of the surcingle and out to the trainer. The so called trainer can then pull the front feet out from under the horse and throw him to his knees and to the ground I must say, this sounds horrible and possibly hurtful to the horse. If I saw my trainer doing this I would certainly question him and most likely find a new trainer! I may be overreacting and granted I'm not a trainer and not a super knowledgeable person regarding ways to train a horse, but that seems a harsh way to train. Reena who is throwing in her 2 cents!
Re: driving training and the running W
This message is from: Jean Ernest [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oh Boy! I myself would tend to avoid a trainer who regularly uses a running W in his training program! I suppose I could see a RARE careful use of it in an extreme situation with a horse with real problems. Certainly Doris Ganton doesn't use it! What it consists of is a rope running from a surcingle down to a hobble around one front foot, back to a ring at the bottom of the surcingle (bellyband) back to a hobble around the other front foot and back up to a ring on the other side of the surcingle and out to the trainer. The so called trainer can then pull the front feet out from under the horse and throw him to his knees and to the ground. Some draft horse trainers use them(as shown in the Western Horseman Video Draft Horses Come in Handy) A good trainer shouldn't have to resort to such a device when starting a young horse in my opinion. Anybody else got some thoughts on this? (should make for a heated discussion!) I think one of the best books on training the horse to drive is the one by Heike Bean and Sarah Blanchard: CARRIAGE DRIVING, A Logical Approach Through Dressage Training. Mary Twelve ponies also discusses basic driving training as well as starting the colt riding, in her Book STARTING THE COLT Jean in Fairbanks, Alaska, +2 degrees! I have been visiting with a local fellow about training the boys to drive. He mentioned he uses a running W when he trains. I have the Doris Ganton book and tape and she doesn't mention the use of it. So I thought I would ask the rest of you your thoughts on it. ** Jean Ernest Fairbanks, Alaska [EMAIL PROTECTED]
