Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Brian Lloyd]

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 8:06 PM, Dave Gomberg  wrote:

> At 15:41 11/20/2011, Peter G. Viscarola wrote:
>
>> Now if we could JUST lose the Firewire and USB interfaces, and replace
>> them with Gigabit Ethernet we'd really be in great shape.
>>
>
> The problem with Ethernet is that you can have arbitrary delays due to
> collisions, so real-time performance cannot be guaranteed.


We have known for about 20 years that this is not a problem but that wive's
tale has remained. In fact, that was the argument as to why Ethernet was
not suitable as an avionics bus. However, someone noticed that even under
relatively heavy loading it isn't a problem on modern switched Ethernet
systems. The standard avionics bus on new Airbus aircraft is now Ethernet.
If Ethernet is acceptable for life-critical systems like commercial
aircraft control systems, it is acceptable to transport SDR data. In fact,
there are now several SDR receivers that use Ethernet to transport their
signal streams very effectively. You will need to find another argument.

Firewire is designed to meet real-time processing needs.   Sad to say, I
> don't think there is enough demand to ever see a real-time Windows system.
>  OS/2 was a real-time system related to Windows, but it has not done well
> recently.  I believe there are real-time versions of *nix, but it would be
> a bit strange to require not only PSDR but all the ancillary vendors to
> change their support platform from Windows to *nix.   I would say the
> stifling of folks jumping on the SDR bus would be severely impacted.   I am
> surprised that I ended up mentioning OS/2 in a contemporary, leading-edge
> setting


Yes, FireWire has an isochronous mode to preserve synchronization and
reduce latency. FWIW there is even isochronous Ethernet, not that it really
matters.

Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with using FireWire other
than the fact that it has never been particularly popular even though it is
technically superior to USB. I think that when Flex was working on the
SDR-1000, FireWire was the only choice for getting a high-dynamic-range,
high-sample-rate, high-density audio interface. But times change. Ethernet
is now a better answer.

-- 
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
br...@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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Re: [Flexradio] FlexControl install fail

[Dudley Hurry]

Larry,

You will find the FlexControl drivers in the PowerSDR install folder..

Just open Windows Device manager,   find the unknown USB device,  Right 
click and update driver,  Browse to the


C:\Program Files (x86)\FlexRadio Systems\PowerSDR 
v2.2.3\FlexControlI64folder, for the 64bit version of PSDR..   This 
should install the correct drivers for you..If you still do not have 
FlexControl folders,  uninstall PowerSDR2.2.3 , when re-installing , 
make sure to check the FlexControl  box..


When you first connect the FC  all the lights will come on,  then go 
out.  Once PSDR 2.1.5 or later is started, then the first two lights 
will come on..


This should get you going.. If not,  enter a Support Ticket at   
http://helpdesk.flexradio.com


73,
Dudley
WA5QPZ


On 11/20/2011 1:42 PM, Larry wrote:

Following the instructions for the FlexControl found at

http://support.flexradio.com/Downloads.aspx?id=367

I pluged the new FlexControl into my Mac Powerbook Pro running windows 
7 64 bit and received the message that the driver failed to install - 
no details, no error code.  This is the same laptop where I run 
PowerSDR 2.2.3.  The knob did not come with installation instructions 
or a driver cd. The install doc says that if widows ever needed to be 
told where the driver was, to look here: C:\Program Files\FlexRadio 
Systems\PowerSDR v2.1.x\FlexControlyy.  Where x is the dot release of 
PowerSDRand yy is for 64 or 32 as appropriate for my bitness of 
windows.  There is no folder named FlexControl* in this folder.  
Suggestions on next steps?  I've tried plugging the knob in with 
powersdr running and not.  Reboot of laptop did not help.  Does not 
seem to care if my Flex 5000 is plugged into the laptop or powered 
on.  When I search for the term FlexControl at 
http://kc.flexradio.com/search.aspx I get no records found.


73s

Larry

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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Tony Estep]

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Dave Gomberg  wrote:

> ... I don't think there is enough demand to ever see a real-time Windows
> system


Dave, I'm no OS expert, but I don't think any modern multi-tasking
multi-threaded general purpose OS can ever really meet the requirements of
a true real-time system. The OS is supposed to guarantee that a process
deterministically achieves certain scheduling deadlines. This requires minimal
interrupt latency and minimal scheduling latency, which in turn means that
things get out of hand if too many processes are sending interrupts and
grabbing cycles.

Neal's purpose-built PCs use Windows but get good throughput by stripping
out lots of ancillary stuff and concentrating on running just Flex
software. This could presumably be carried to another level by running a
real-time OS instead of Windows.  RTOS's include QNX and RTLinux, as well
as some cell-phone OS's etc. These systems are not for use as
general-purpose windowing systems, but rather for embedded applications,
where they find wide applicability; a typical example is in routers. QNX is
found not only in the little wireless box in your bedroom, but also in huge
routers with massively parallel processing, handling tens of thousands of
connections.


Tony KT0NY


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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Dave Gomberg]

At 15:41 11/20/2011, Peter G. Viscarola wrote:
Now if we could JUST lose the Firewire and USB interfaces, and 
replace them with Gigabit Ethernet we'd really be in great shape.


The problem with Ethernet is that you can have arbitrary delays due 
to collisions, so real-time performance cannot be 
guaranteed.   Firewire is designed to meet real-time processing 
needs.   Sad to say, I don't think there is enough demand to ever see 
a real-time Windows system.  OS/2 was a real-time system related to 
Windows, but it has not done well recently.  I believe there are 
real-time versions of *nix, but it would be a bit strange to require 
not only PSDR but all the ancillary vendors to change their support 
platform from Windows to *nix.   I would say the stifling of folks 
jumping on the SDR bus would be severely impacted.   I am surprised 
that I ended up mentioning OS/2 in a contemporary, leading-edge setting




--
Dave Gomberg, San Francisco   NE5EE Programming since 1959
All addresses, phones, etc. at http://www.wcf.com/ham/info.html
- 



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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Brian Lloyd]

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 7:23 PM, Brett Gazdzinski <
brett.gazdzin...@verizon.net> wrote:

> This reminds me of my days in the old (maybe its still so) computer video
> games.
> Upgrade the computer every year, always behind, sometimes more often then
> every year...then the operating system changes and you can no longer run
> good games on new computers...
>
> Once I got the 5000 running, I made sure to never allow any updates, and
> never updated psdr, never connected the computer to the web, and had a 100%
> stable system.
>
> I did not use it on CW though.
>
> So the firewire interface is no limitation at all?
>

No. The FireWire interface is no limitation at all.

The CW latency problem is not from the FireWire interface either. It is
possible to have only a few milliseconds of latency with FireWire. Yes, it
does contribute to the latency but only by a small increment. That is what
isochronous data transfers provide (in addition to ensuring that all the
channels remain synchronized in time). In fact, I suspect that it is
impossible to detect the latency introduced by FireWire with your ear
unless someone has gone overboard with buffer sizes.

-- 
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
br...@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Brett Gazdzinski]

This reminds me of my days in the old (maybe its still so) computer video games.
Upgrade the computer every year, always behind, sometimes more often then every 
year...then the operating system changes and you can no longer run good games 
on new computers...

Once I got the 5000 running, I made sure to never allow any updates, and never 
updated psdr, never connected the computer to the web, and had a 100% stable 
system.

I did not use it on CW though.

So the firewire interface is no limitation at all?





  - Original Message - 
  From: William H. Fite 
  To: Brett Gazdzinski 
  Cc: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz 
  Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 9:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?


  Brett (et alia), I think the fundamental problem is insufficient power on the 
PC end.  Flex would hardly have chosen to market their systems with the caveat 
that the buyer would most likely have to purchase a new and more powerful 
computer, ideally dedicated solely to radio.  


  Nonetheless, what is evolving is the shared understanding that in order to 
extract all the delicious juices from the SDR-fruit, one probably needs to 
devote a powerful machine to that purpose.


  Now, for "old paradigm" people, that realization will be met with yowls and 
howls.  One fellow here said to me in a private post, "Hell, for that much 
money I could by a REAL radio," thereby demonstrating unequivocally that he 
does...not...get...it.


  People who are content to go along with conventional radios--with or without 
embedded controllers--will find this another reason to decry the SDR concept.  
But those of us who are eager to see just how far SDR can go, adding a big, 
butch "radio computer" and updating it at regular intervals will simply be, as 
my old Uncle Fred would have said, "the price of poker."





  On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 8:30 PM, Brett Gazdzinski 
 wrote:

Well, what is the bottleneck/source of trouble?
Slow cpu's?
The ever changing operating system?
The firewire/usb interface?

It seems to me the weakest point most mentioned is latency on cw.
Where does that come from?

Brett
N2DTS




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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Brian Lloyd]

Look, here is the thing. Radios are changing. The people playing with the
Flex radios are the first hams to get the hint of a taste of what is
possible. In the past, the radio was a stand-alone box. It did everything
by itself. Now, the potential exists for the radio to be part of a larger
communications *SYSTEM*. We are already getting a taste of that with
programs like DDutil and CW Skimmer. The *SYSTEM* consists of many devices
connected by communications links to perform many functions. As time goes
by we will add more functions to the *SYSTEM* using more and different
boxes connected to our network. We will have boxes for doing DSP, coding,
decoding, antenna control, amplification, etc. We are already using
different boxes for much of this and distributing the processing among
them.

It is time for us to pull our minds out of their common ruts and start
thinking about how things could be, and not reject that in favor of how
things used to be.

-- 
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
br...@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Brian Lloyd]

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Tony Estep  wrote:

>
> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 7:19 PM, Brian Lloyd wrote:
>
>> ...What I have just described to you can be done using an existing Flex
>> 5000 but it cannot be done by even 10 top-of-the-line quad-core PCs working
>> in parallel,...
>>
> ===
> This strange statement says that if I-Q signals are piped out to a
> general-purpose PC running Windows and some detection and filtering
> software, then many signals can be detected simultaneously; but if instead
> the output is piped to a special purpose PC running a dedicated OS, and the
> identical detection and filtering software, that it won't work. It's
> pointless to debate this.
>

No, it is not pointless to debate this. The point is, the two I/Q streams
coming from the two receivers in a standard Flex 5000 with both receivers,
will cover the entire digital portion of a band. The problem is, when you
have hundreds of CW, PSK, Olivia, DominoEX, Thor, and SSTV channels all
going at once, a single high-powered PC cannot provide enough processing
power to decode all of those at the same time. However, if the PC connected
to the Flex then relays the I/Q streams to, say, 10 other PC's, you CAN
decode all those streams. The problem is solved by running MANY processors
in parallel to solve the decoding problem.

But you cannot do it with a single processor. Maybe sometime in the future
we will have a single processor powerful enough to do this but we don't
now. BUT the existing Flex 5000 *BECAUSE* it uses an external processor,
can continue to get more and more processing power to enable more and more
complex decoders. Once you put the processor in the box with the RF
components you are forever locked into the that one processor. It will
become obsolete almost immediately.

As for FireWire, there is nothing wrong with FireWire. It does a perfectly
good job of transporting the isochronous I/Q streams to an external
processor for processing. That processor can act as a gateway to an
ethernet where other processors are available to do even more processing.
(Use a cheap PC to provide a Gig-E interface from the 5000 to the rest of
the world.)

-- 
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
br...@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[William H. Fite]

Brett (et alia), I think the fundamental problem is insufficient power on
the PC end.  Flex would hardly have chosen to market their systems with the
caveat that the buyer would most likely have to purchase a new and more
powerful computer, ideally dedicated solely to radio.

Nonetheless, what is evolving is the shared understanding that in order to
extract all the delicious juices from the SDR-fruit, one probably needs to
devote a powerful machine to that purpose.

Now, for "old paradigm" people, that realization will be met with yowls and
howls.  One fellow here said to me in a private post, "Hell, for that much
money I could by a REAL radio," thereby demonstrating unequivocally that he
does...not...get...it.

People who are content to go along with conventional radios--with or
without embedded controllers--will find this another reason to decry the
SDR concept.  But those of us who are eager to see just how far SDR can go,
adding a big, butch "radio computer" and updating it at regular intervals
will simply be, as my old Uncle Fred would have said, "the price of poker."



On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 8:30 PM, Brett Gazdzinski <
brett.gazdzin...@verizon.net> wrote:

> Well, what is the bottleneck/source of trouble?
> Slow cpu's?
> The ever changing operating system?
> The firewire/usb interface?
>
> It seems to me the weakest point most mentioned is latency on cw.
> Where does that come from?
>
> Brett
> N2DTS
>
>
>
>
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[Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Tony Estep]

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 7:19 PM, Brian Lloyd  wrote:

> ...What I have just described to you can be done using an existing Flex
> 5000 but it cannot be done by even 10 top-of-the-line quad-core PCs working
> in parallel,...
>
===
This strange statement says that if I-Q signals are piped out to a
general-purpose PC running Windows and some detection and filtering
software, then many signals can be detected simultaneously; but if instead
the output is piped to a special purpose PC running a dedicated OS, and the
identical detection and filtering software, that it won't work. It's
pointless to debate this.

Tony KT0NY


-- 
http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352



-- 
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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Brett Gazdzinski]

Well, what is the bottleneck/source of trouble?
Slow cpu's?
The ever changing operating system?
The firewire/usb interface?

It seems to me the weakest point most mentioned is latency on cw.
Where does that come from?

Brett
N2DTS



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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Brian Lloyd]

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Tony Estep  wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Brian Lloyd 
> wrote:
>
> > ...Well, there are alternate viewpointsif you want to do some of the
> > new things, e.g. CW Skimmer and its follow-ons...
> >
> ==
> Sure, there are alternate views. The market will eventually sort it out.
>
> However, the CW Skimmer example is poorly chosen; any radio that supplies
> I-Q outputs to a PC can drive CW-Skimmer, and certainly most CW Skimmer
> installations are being used with conventional radios with a softrock,
> LP-Pan (that's what ON4UN uses to drive it), or some such gadget in between
> if necessary. After all, it's primarily a DXer's tool, a market where SDR
> has made little penetration. ON4UN reports, for example, that in his survey
> of 400 Euro and U.S. DXers that most had not tried SDR, and only 4 had
> adopted it as their primary radio.
>

You are still thinking in the past, i.e. how things WERE done, not how they
are going to be done in the future. It doesn't really matter how people
choose to do things now. We are talking about how the technology will
enable things that heretofore have not been possible using radios that are
high-tech copies of the Collins KWM1 from almost 70 years ago now.

CW Skimmer *IS* an excellent example. CW Skimmer demonstrates how it is
possible to decode all the channels in a block of the HF spectrum. CW
Skimmer as a program is limited to one mode, CW, but the concept applies to
ALL digital modes. If you have enough computing power there is nothing to
stop you from decoding every CW, RTTY, PSK31, Olivia, Thor, DominoEX, SSTV,
etc., channel in all the ham bands at the same time. It just takes
processing power ... a LOT of processing power. If one were to use a Flex
5000 with each of RX1 and RX2 sending 160kHz of spectrum on two I/Q
channels (very possible but not with PowerSDR as it is now) to various CPUs
for processing, we could do that for one whole band easily. With a
direct-sampling radio we could do it for the entire HF spectrum. Want to
know if your buddy is transmitting anywhere at any time and then have your
computer(s) let you know, that is possible.

So I am not at all interested in looking backward to the way things were
done 70 years ago. Frankly, ham radio has been stuck-in-the-mud for a
LNG time. It is time to look at the kinds of things that are possible
with SDR that were not previously possible; not whether a bunch hide-bound
old DX chasers will embrace it as yet another way to do the same old thing.
Ho hum, not interesting.


> But look, processor power has multiplied by a zillion in the past decade
> that SDR has been growing in ham usage, and it's still not enough to do
> what can be done with a dedicated chip inside the radio. That much is clear
> from the posts you can read here every day.
>

You couldn't be more wrong.


>
> There's no reason why you couldn't put a dedicated Pentium inside a radio,
> with a real-time OS, and have literally hundreds of times as much
> processing power as you do by feeding a stream of data to a PC over a
> serial USB or Firewire port.
>

Again, you couldn't be more wrong.

What I have just described to you can be done using an existing Flex 5000
but it cannot be done by even 10 top-of-the-line quad-core PCs working in
parallel, let alone a single, anemic, low-powered, embedded
microcontroller.

-- 
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
br...@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Frank Coffey]

I would like to see a fiber link myself
Frank W4ncs

-Original Message-
From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz
[mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Ross Stenberg
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 7:28 PM
To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

Just curious Peter, why are you so against 1394? I know that it will not be
around forever, but not much is when it comes to the world of computing. It
serves its purpose now, however.

 73 Ross K9COX

On 11/20/2011 5:41 PM, Peter G. Viscarola wrote:
> 
> Right now we can upgrade the Flex radios at any time with a more powerful
procecessor to meet future needs. Although PowerSDR is limited to a single
processor today, hopefully there will be a future version that will allow
for the possibility to use networked processor to do even more.
> 
>
> Exactly.  Putting the processing on the host, and not on the radio, opens
the radio to limitless possibilities.
>
> Now if we could JUST lose the Firewire and USB interfaces, and replace
them with Gigabit Ethernet we'd really be in great shape.
>
> I'd buy a 5000 in a second if it used GigE.  While it has 1394... not a
chance.
>
> Peter
> K1PGV
>
>


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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Ross Stenberg]

Just curious Peter, why are you so against 1394? I know that it will not 
be around forever, but not much is when it comes to the world of 
computing. It serves its purpose now, however.


73 Ross K9COX

On 11/20/2011 5:41 PM, Peter G. Viscarola wrote:


Right now we can upgrade the Flex radios at any time with a more powerful 
procecessor to meet future needs. Although PowerSDR is limited to a single 
processor today, hopefully there will be a future version that will allow for 
the possibility to use networked processor to do even more.


Exactly.  Putting the processing on the host, and not on the radio, opens the 
radio to limitless possibilities.

Now if we could JUST lose the Firewire and USB interfaces, and replace them 
with Gigabit Ethernet we'd really be in great shape.

I'd buy a 5000 in a second if it used GigE.  While it has 1394... not a chance.

Peter
K1PGV





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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Tony Estep]

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 5:25 PM, Brian Lloyd  wrote:

> ...Well, there are alternate viewpointsif you want to do some of the
> new things, e.g. CW Skimmer and its follow-ons...
>
==
Sure, there are alternate views. The market will eventually sort it out.

However, the CW Skimmer example is poorly chosen; any radio that supplies
I-Q outputs to a PC can drive CW-Skimmer, and certainly most CW Skimmer
installations are being used with conventional radios with a softrock,
LP-Pan (that's what ON4UN uses to drive it), or some such gadget in between
if necessary. After all, it's primarily a DXer's tool, a market where SDR
has made little penetration. ON4UN reports, for example, that in his survey
of 400 Euro and U.S. DXers that most had not tried SDR, and only 4 had
adopted it as their primary radio.

But look, processor power has multiplied by a zillion in the past decade
that SDR has been growing in ham usage, and it's still not enough to do
what can be done with a dedicated chip inside the radio. That much is clear
from the posts you can read here every day.

There's no reason why you couldn't put a dedicated Pentium inside a radio,
with a real-time OS, and have literally hundreds of times as much
processing power as you do by feeding a stream of data to a PC over a
serial USB or Firewire port.

Tony KT0NY


-- 
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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Peter G. Viscarola]

Right now we can upgrade the Flex radios at any time with a more powerful 
procecessor to meet future needs. Although PowerSDR is limited to a single 
processor today, hopefully there will be a future version that will allow for 
the possibility to use networked processor to do even more.


Exactly.  Putting the processing on the host, and not on the radio, opens the 
radio to limitless possibilities.

Now if we could JUST lose the Firewire and USB interfaces, and replace them 
with Gigabit Ethernet we'd really be in great shape.

I'd buy a 5000 in a second if it used GigE.  While it has 1394... not a chance. 

Peter
K1PGV

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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Brian Lloyd]

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Tony Estep  wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Brett Gazdzinski <
> brett.gazdzin...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > ...makes you wish they would just put a chip in the radio to do the
> > processing (without windows) and just have the computer display and
> control
> > the radio...
> > =
>
> This topic has come up before. Having detection, filtering, etc. done by a
> general-purpose PC with a general-purpose OS, shared with a lot of other
> programs which are sending interrupts and going about their business, is an
> idea that was good for proof of concept, but it does not seem as if it can
> be the future of SDR.
>

Well, there are alternate viewpoints. If all you want is a radio that does
what radios did for the last 50 years, you are correct. You can do it with
a dedicated processor in the hardware. OTOH, if you want to do some of the
new things, e.g. CW Skimmer and its follow-ons, then you need more
processing power. The thing is, we don't KNOW what the new functions are
going to be and locking ourselves into a processor that is adequate today
but inadequate tomorrow, and with no hope of upgrading, well, that doesn't
set well with me.

Right now we can upgrade the Flex radios at any time with a more powerful
procecessor to meet future needs. Although PowerSDR is limited to a single
processor today, hopefully there will be a future version that will allow
for the possibility to use networked processor to do even more.

-- 
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
br...@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Tony Estep]

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Brett Gazdzinski <
brett.gazdzin...@verizon.net> wrote:

> ...makes you wish they would just put a chip in the radio to do the
> processing (without windows) and just have the computer display and control
> the radio...
> =

This topic has come up before. Having detection, filtering, etc. done by a
general-purpose PC with a general-purpose OS, shared with a lot of other
programs which are sending interrupts and going about their business, is an
idea that was good for proof of concept, but it does not seem as if it can
be the future of SDR.

The ham-gear world already has lots of entries with excellent on-board DSP.
The upcoming Elecraft KX3 will have just what Brett describes: an on-board
CPU to do the detection etc., sending IQ signals out to an external PC that
can do the display/control via a program such as NaP3. I'm guessing that
the next generation of SDR radios will embody this idea. Then they could
have a really simple real-time OS, devoted entirely to doing radio stuff.
Not only would it make for a better radio, it would dramatically reduce the
support load on the manufacturers, who would have only a single
well-understood hardware configuration to debug and enhance.

Tony KT0NY

-- 
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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 review in December issue of QST Magazine

[Tony Estep]

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 12:17 PM, Neal Campbell wrote:

>
> What latency issue did they mention?
>
> They had their usual "first-two-dits" scope trace. It shows the first dit
coming out of the radio about halfway through the second dit produced by
the keyer.

I thought that on the whole, the review was diplomatic. Silver commented
that latency "can make sending CW difficult." but noted that it could be
addressed by using an external keyer. Similarly, the review noted that
operating difficulties that would frustrate "competitive operators" could
be mitigated by using the Hercules interface. He provides a link to
Tobias's website and observes that the Hercules interface is "a step in the
right direction."

He also mentioned some setup and software issues surrounding digital
operation, but again said that they could be overcome with help from guys
on this reflector.

In keeping with QST's general policy, overall the review stressed the
positives.

73, Tony, KT0NY
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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Brett Gazdzinski]

My guess is they thought the USB would be good enough for the 1500, and its 
a lot more common then a firewire.
Everything comes with a usb port, and there are even some sdr's that run 
over one, even getting power from it

)sdr-iq).

Jump up to the 3000 and 5000 and they need the firewire abilities.

I ran a 5000 on my laptop, and it ran great with no problems, but I do not 
think I could have done CW on it with the built in keyer.
The delay through the lap top was MUCH higher then it was through the custom 
built low end desktop form Neal.
The TX monitor was also useless as there was so much delay it sounds like 
echo from a phone over a satellite link.


With the desk top computer, it was very close to real time.

I know the idea is you are supposed to use a laptop and the 1500 as a 
portable station, but wonder just how well it can work on cw without a 
really fast laptop, and not just the processor part of it...


My laptop had enough processor to run the 5000 glitch free, it just had all 
that delay


Sort of makes you wish they would just put a chip in the radio to do the 
processing (without windows) and just have the computer display and control 
the radio...


It seems like there is a LOT of potential in sdr, with no one really pushing 
it.


Brett
N2DTS





- Original Message - 
From: "Jim Lowman" 

To: 
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 12:46 PM
Subject: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?


Hello, everyone.  Please overlook the rookie questions as I am a new owner 
of a Flex-1500, having ordered it at the ARRL Southwestern Division 
Convention in September.


For many years I've used my trusty Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop as the shack 
computer, but will need to move another computer in there because the 8500 
ports pre-date USB 2.0.
I'm planning to use an HP desktop that has a 2.60 GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 
dual-core CPU and 2 GB of RAM.  It will take another 2 GB of RAM but, 
since it's running Windows XP, anything over about 3 GB is not used.
This would seem to be adequate to run PowerSDR, although more is always 
better.


Are there any plans to support USB 3.0 in the near future?  I understand 
that the speed of the USB port is the limiting factor.  Any reason that 
the 1500 doesn't use FireWire, as the other Flex models do?


I would have searched the archives of this mailing list for possible 
answers, but didn't know where to locate them


Thanks for any info.  BTW, my intended use of the 1500 is primarily CW, 30 
wpm or so, and probably some digital.


72/73 de Jim - AD6CW

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Re: [Flexradio] New freq, new modes, new power for 60 Meters

[Jim fuller - N7VR]

Hi Rick,

No. We have to wait thirty days from when it is published in the Federal
Register, not 30 days from when the FCC issued the Report and Order.
While the FCC issued the Report & Order on the 16th of November, it has  not
been published in the Federal register.
The Federal register can be found at:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/browse/collection.action?collectionCode=FR 

Please do not jump the gun, as it may not be fun.

73

Jim Fuller
N7VR -- http://www.n7vr.org 
International TCP/IP Gateways Robot Operator -- http://www.ampr-gateways.org

MTAPRS NET Server Operator -- http://www.mtaprs.net 
CWOP-2 -- http://www.wxqa.com 
IRLP Node 3398 - http://irlp.fuller.net 
Original ARECC contributor


-Original Message-
From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz
[mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Rick Tharrington
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 6:56 AM
To: 'Flex-Radio E-Mail Reflector'
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] New freq, new modes, new power for 60 Meters
Importance: High

Is this true we have to wait until 30 days from 11-16-2011 to operate
digital modes on 60 meters?
Rick Kd4jrx 

-Original Message-
From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz
[mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Tom Peterson
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 12:05 AM
To: Drax Felton
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] New freq, new modes, new power for 60 Meters

A.change is afoot!  Still,  phone only until 30 days after the
change is published in the Federal Register.  Sounds like a few folks are
jumping the gun and liable to get a Christmas card from the FCC.

Sent from my Batcomputer

On Nov 19, 2011, at 10:53 PM, "Drax Felton"  wrote:

> QRV on 5.3465 USB.  JT65HF.
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz 
> [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Brian
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 10:31 PM
> To: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
> Subject: [Flexradio] New freq, new modes, new power for 60 Meters
> 
>
http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2011/db1118/FCC-11-1
> 71A1.pdf
> 
> Guess we will need new programming software for the frequency change, 
> and perhaps a change for PSK
> 
> 
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[Flexradio] NEW 60M CHANNEL

[Leon Bishop]

Sure glad I have a MARS licence...my F5K is ready for the new channel and
modes on 60M!  Thanks Flex...couldn't ask for a better radio...better
antennas perhaps, but that's another story!


Leon
N5PU/AFA4LC  USAF MARS  (RET SMSGT)
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Re: [Flexradio] New freq, new modes, new power for 60 Meters

[Dale Brown]

OK, the rule was adopted and published on 
November 16, 2011 in the Federal Register.
http://www.fcc.gov/document/amateur-radio-service-5-mhz 
So, on Friday, December 16, the new 5 mhz band 
plan is operational.Just 26 more daysOK, 
Flex guyscan you meet the deadline?.Dale KC2PZ

At 02:26 PM 11/20/2011, you wrote:

On 11/20/2011 7:56 AM, Rick Tharrington wrote:

Is this true we have to wait until 30 days from 11-16-2011 to operate
digital modes on 60 meters?

See:  http://www.fcc.gov/document/amateur-radio-service-5-mhz

Specifically,


*V.*

*ORDERING CLAUSES*

52. Accordingly, IT IS ORDERED that, pursuant 
to Sections 4(i), 301, 302(a), 303(c), 303(f),
303(g), and 303(r) of the Communications Act of 
1934, as amended, 47 U.S.C. §§ 154(i), 301, 302a(a)
303(c), 303(f), 303(g), and 303(r), this Report 
and Order IS ADOPTED and Parts 2 and 97 of the
Commission's Rules ARE AMENDED as set forth in 
Appendix B, effective 30 days after publication in

the Federal Register.


As to the date of publication, I can't speak on 
that as I'm up to my eyes in the Federal Register at
http://www.federalregister.gov/agencies/federal-communications-commission 
looking for it and so far no joy.

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Re: [Flexradio] FlexControl install fail

[Larry]

A user on the list suggested I reinstall PowerSDR - this gave the option 
to choose the flex control.  Checked it and completed installation and 
flex control is working now.  IMO a better experience would be to have 
the PowerSDR integrated installer install the FlexControl driver as part 
of every install or remove the FlexControl driver install from the 
PowerSDR integrated installer and provide a driver disk with the device 
or offer a link to the driver software on the invoice.  I also suggest 
merging the errata and quick start guides and mention the need to 
reinstall PowerSDR.


-Larry

On 11/20/2011 8:42 PM, Larry wrote:

Following the instructions for the FlexControl found at

http://support.flexradio.com/Downloads.aspx?id=367

I pluged the new FlexControl into my Mac Powerbook Pro running windows 
7 64 bit and received the message that the driver failed to install - 
no details, no error code.  This is the same laptop where I run 
PowerSDR 2.2.3.  The knob did not come with installation instructions 
or a driver cd. The install doc says that if widows ever needed to be 
told where the driver was, to look here: C:\Program Files\FlexRadio 
Systems\PowerSDR v2.1.x\FlexControlyy.  Where x is the dot release of 
PowerSDRand yy is for 64 or 32 as appropriate for my bitness of 
windows.  There is no folder named FlexControl* in this folder.  
Suggestions on next steps?  I've tried plugging the knob in with 
powersdr running and not.  Reboot of laptop did not help.  Does not 
seem to care if my Flex 5000 is plugged into the laptop or powered 
on.  When I search for the term FlexControl at 
http://kc.flexradio.com/search.aspx I get no records found.


73s

Larry


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Re: [Flexradio] New freq, new modes, new power for 60 Meters

[Tom Peterson]

On 11/20/2011 7:56 AM, Rick Tharrington wrote:

Is this true we have to wait until 30 days from 11-16-2011 to operate
digital modes on 60 meters?

See:  http://www.fcc.gov/document/amateur-radio-service-5-mhz

Specifically,


*V.*

*ORDERING CLAUSES*

52. Accordingly, IT IS ORDERED that, pursuant to Sections 4(i), 301, 
302(a), 303(c), 303(f),
303(g), and 303(r) of the Communications Act of 1934, as amended, 47 
U.S.C. §§ 154(i), 301, 302a(a)
303(c), 303(f), 303(g), and 303(r), this Report and Order IS ADOPTED 
and Parts 2 and 97 of the
Commission's Rules ARE AMENDED as set forth in Appendix B, effective 
30 days after publication in

the Federal Register.


As to the date of publication, I can't speak on that as I'm up to my 
eyes in the Federal Register at
http://www.federalregister.gov/agencies/federal-communications-commission looking 
for it and so far no joy.

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[Flexradio] Ft Wayne Hamfest

[Larry Otto]

Ray, K9DUR did a nice job representing the Flex Radios at the Ft Wayne hamfest.

I am sure he wasn't bored, as he had someone there almost the whole Saturday.

W8LO
Larry
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Re: [Flexradio] A safe way to connect to a receive only antenna?

[Lee Mushel]

Gentlemen:

This topic is, of course, of fundamental concern to EME people who need to 
protect their low noise preamps.   You might look at those web sites to see 
how this is done by them.


73

Lee  K9WRU
- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Lloyd" 

To: 
Cc: 
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] A safe way to connect to a receive only antenna?


On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 12:26 AM, Jim fuller - N7VR  
wrote:



Hi Gary,

I would use something like a DOW-KEY Transmit-receive relay. Connect the
receive only antenna to the receive side and the transmit antenna to the
transmit side. The antenna connection on the Dow-Key to the output of the
Flex-3000. Use the TX-OUT to key the DOW-Key Relay. My personal choice
would
be one like:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dow-Key-Relay-12-VDC-Coil-TR-Extra-Contacts-Nice-/22
0875136188?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336d2f1cbc



You will notice that the Dow-Key relay has a separate set of contacts. The
purpose of these contacts is to key the rig AFTER the coax relay has
switched so that the rig doesn't produce RF before the coax relay has
switched. Use your independent PTT circuit to key the relay then use the
extra contacts on the relay to key the rig. That will ensure that the 
relay

has switched BEFORE PTT is asserted to the rig.

--
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
br...@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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[Flexradio] FlexControl install fail

[Larry]

Following the instructions for the FlexControl found at

http://support.flexradio.com/Downloads.aspx?id=367

I pluged the new FlexControl into my Mac Powerbook Pro running windows 7 
64 bit and received the message that the driver failed to install - no 
details, no error code.  This is the same laptop where I run PowerSDR 
2.2.3.  The knob did not come with installation instructions or a driver 
cd. The install doc says that if widows ever needed to be told where the 
driver was, to look here: C:\Program Files\FlexRadio Systems\PowerSDR 
v2.1.x\FlexControlyy.  Where x is the dot release of PowerSDRand yy is 
for 64 or 32 as appropriate for my bitness of windows.  There is no 
folder named FlexControl* in this folder.  Suggestions on next steps?  
I've tried plugging the knob in with powersdr running and not.  Reboot 
of laptop did not help.  Does not seem to care if my Flex 5000 is 
plugged into the laptop or powered on.  When I search for the term 
FlexControl at http://kc.flexradio.com/search.aspx I get no records found.


73s

Larry

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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 review in December issue of QST Magazine

[Neal Campbell]

Hi Jim

What latency issue did they mention?

73

On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Jim Lowman  wrote:

> If anyone is interested.
>
> There is still reference to the latency issue, which one of the reps at
> the convention assured me was no longer a problem.
> Of course, these reviews are published a few months after they are
> written, so it's possible that the problem was fixed during this time
> period.
>
> 72/73 de Jim - AD6CW
>
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>



-- 
Neal Campbell
Owner
Abroham Neal LLC
Work:+1 540 645 5394
Mobile:  +1 540 645 8171
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Re: [Flexradio] A safe way to connect to a receive only antenna?

[Brian Lloyd]

On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 12:26 AM, Jim fuller - N7VR  wrote:

> Hi Gary,
>
> I would use something like a DOW-KEY Transmit-receive relay. Connect the
> receive only antenna to the receive side and the transmit antenna to the
> transmit side. The antenna connection on the Dow-Key to the output of the
> Flex-3000. Use the TX-OUT to key the DOW-Key Relay. My personal choice
> would
> be one like:
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dow-Key-Relay-12-VDC-Coil-TR-Extra-Contacts-Nice-/22
> 0875136188?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item336d2f1cbc


You will notice that the Dow-Key relay has a separate set of contacts. The
purpose of these contacts is to key the rig AFTER the coax relay has
switched so that the rig doesn't produce RF before the coax relay has
switched. Use your independent PTT circuit to key the relay then use the
extra contacts on the relay to key the rig. That will ensure that the relay
has switched BEFORE PTT is asserted to the rig.

-- 
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
br...@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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Re: [Flexradio] Equalizer won't switch from Digital to SSB..

[Brian Lloyd]

On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 1:26 AM, Dan  wrote:

> My problem is the equalizer is not automatically enabled when going from
> digital to phone via the PPT. In order to operate the equalizer I have to
> manually select USB or LSB.
>
> Has anyone else noticed this?
>

Yes. That is how it is supposed to work. Digital mode switches out all
baseband signal processing, i.e EQ, compander, speech processor, etc., so
that it cannot distort the digital mode signal. Just hitting PTT doesn't
change mode.

But I agree that it would make sense to have the mic signal path pass
through the processing modules while the digital-mode subcarrier via VAC
enters the baseband signal chain after all the processing modules except
the ALC/limiter. But that is not what happens.

Oh, if only PowerSDR were written in such a way that processing modules
could be snapped together in whatever order made sense.

-- 
Brian Lloyd, WB6RQN/J79BPL
3191 Western Dr.
Cameron Park, CA 95682
br...@lloyd.com
+1.767.617.1365 (Dominica)
+1.916.877.5067 (USA)
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[Flexradio] Flex-1500 review in December issue of QST Magazine

[Jim Lowman]

If anyone is interested.

There is still reference to the latency issue, which one of the reps at 
the convention assured me was no longer a problem.
Of course, these reviews are published a few months after they are 
written, so it's possible that the problem was fixed during this time 
period.


72/73 de Jim - AD6CW

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Re: [Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Neal Campbell]

Hi Jim

The archives are here!
http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/

73
On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Jim Lowman  wrote:

> Hello, everyone.  Please overlook the rookie questions as I am a new owner
> of a Flex-1500, having ordered it at the ARRL Southwestern Division
> Convention in September.
>
> For many years I've used my trusty Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop as the shack
> computer, but will need to move another computer in there because the 8500
> ports pre-date USB 2.0.
> I'm planning to use an HP desktop that has a 2.60 GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2
> dual-core CPU and 2 GB of RAM.  It will take another 2 GB of RAM but, since
> it's running Windows XP, anything over about 3 GB is not used.
> This would seem to be adequate to run PowerSDR, although more is always
> better.
>
> Are there any plans to support USB 3.0 in the near future?  I understand
> that the speed of the USB port is the limiting factor.  Any reason that the
> 1500 doesn't use FireWire, as the other Flex models do?
>
> I would have searched the archives of this mailing list for possible
> answers, but didn't know where to locate them
>
> Thanks for any info.  BTW, my intended use of the 1500 is primarily CW, 30
> wpm or so, and probably some digital.
>
> 72/73 de Jim - AD6CW
>
> __**_
> FlexRadio Systems Mailing List
> FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
> http://mail.flex-radio.biz/**mailman/listinfo/flexradio_**flex-radio.biz
> Archives: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/**flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/
> Knowledge Base: http://kc.flexradio.com/  Homepage:
> http://www.flexradio.com/
>



-- 
Neal Campbell
Owner
Abroham Neal LLC
Work:+1 540 645 5394
Mobile:  +1 540 645 8171
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[Flexradio] Flex-1500 and USB 3.0?

[Jim Lowman]

Hello, everyone.  Please overlook the rookie questions as I am a new 
owner of a Flex-1500, having ordered it at the ARRL Southwestern 
Division Convention in September.


For many years I've used my trusty Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop as the 
shack computer, but will need to move another computer in there because 
the 8500 ports pre-date USB 2.0.
I'm planning to use an HP desktop that has a 2.60 GHz AMD Athlon 64 X2 
dual-core CPU and 2 GB of RAM.  It will take another 2 GB of RAM but, 
since it's running Windows XP, anything over about 3 GB is not used.
This would seem to be adequate to run PowerSDR, although more is always 
better.


Are there any plans to support USB 3.0 in the near future?  I understand 
that the speed of the USB port is the limiting factor.  Any reason that 
the 1500 doesn't use FireWire, as the other Flex models do?


I would have searched the archives of this mailing list for possible 
answers, but didn't know where to locate them


Thanks for any info.  BTW, my intended use of the 1500 is primarily CW, 
30 wpm or so, and probably some digital.


72/73 de Jim - AD6CW

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Re: [Flexradio] New freq, new modes, new power for 60 Meters

[Rick Tharrington]

Is this true we have to wait until 30 days from 11-16-2011 to operate
digital modes on 60 meters?
Rick Kd4jrx 

-Original Message-
From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz
[mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Tom Peterson
Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 12:05 AM
To: Drax Felton
Cc: 
Subject: Re: [Flexradio] New freq, new modes, new power for 60 Meters

A.change is afoot!  Still,  phone only until 30 days after the
change is published in the Federal Register.  Sounds like a few folks are
jumping the gun and liable to get a Christmas card from the FCC.

Sent from my Batcomputer

On Nov 19, 2011, at 10:53 PM, "Drax Felton"  wrote:

> QRV on 5.3465 USB.  JT65HF.
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz
> [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of Brian
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 10:31 PM
> To: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz
> Subject: [Flexradio] New freq, new modes, new power for 60 Meters
> 
>
http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2011/db1118/FCC-11-1
> 71A1.pdf
> 
> Guess we will need new programming software for the frequency change, and
> perhaps a change for PSK
> 
> 
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Re: [Flexradio] New freq, new modes, new power for 60 Meters

[Bill]

I can hear a weak qso on 5.3465 using my 80 meter dipole. Sounds like a 
roundtable?


I have one qso on 60, Chicago<>Seattle from shortly after band came 
available.


On 11/20/11 7:25 AM, Bill wrote:
I can hear a weak qso on 5.3465 using my 80 meter dipole. Sounds like 
a roundtable?


I have one qso on 60, Chicago<>Seattle from shortly after band came 
available.


On 11/19/11 10:53 PM, Drax Felton wrote:

QRV on 5.3465 USB.  JT65HF.



http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2011/db1118/FCC-11-1
71A1.pdf

Guess we will need new programming software for the frequency change, and
perhaps a change for PSK


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--

A baby sitter is a teenager acting like an adult while the adults are out 
acting like teenagers.
---
Bill H. in Chicagoland
Doing my best to annoy nearly everyone since 1945.
webcams athttp://w9ol-towercam.webhop.org:8080
weather athttp://hhweather.webhop.org:8080

--

A tree's a tree. How many more do you need to look at-Ronald Reagan
---
Bill H. in Chicagoland
Doing my best to annoy nearly everyone since 1945.
webcams at http://w9ol-towercam.webhop.org:8080
weather at http://hhweather.webhop.org:8080

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