Re: [Flexradio] Bad fist when sending CW on the Flex 1500
Agree, that is what I have been doing for the last three (3) years or more. I forget that I am using an external keyer, but I am. I work all modes, but I spend most of my time on CW. Flex is such a good radio that it is worth it and I have used them all, 50 years of hamming.. 73, Bruce, W8HW - Original Message - From: Jerry Gardner jerryw...@gmail.com To: FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 6:32 PM Subject: Re: [Flexradio] Bad fist when sending CW on the Flex 1500 On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 10:31 AM, Brian briduff...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: My opinion is that with digital processing it is impossible to eliminate the delay completely, so if sidetone is preferred it needs to be generated at the key. I agree. I've measured around a 40 msec lag when using the internal keyer in my 5000A, which makes it very difficult to send error-free CW. The only real solution with PSDR is to use an external keyer and disable the rig's sidetone and use the keyer's sidetone. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flexradio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flexradio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flexradio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flexradio.com/
[Flexradio] Bad fist when sending CW on the Flex 1500
I'm a CW operator and my only rig is a Flex 1500. In general, I'm quite pleased with the radio but I have noticed (as have others) that I make many, many errors when sending CW with the built-in keyer on the Flex 1500. For quite some time, I attributed this to operator error until I had a brief email exchange with VE3EGA regarding the Flex 1500. He mentioned the possibility of sub-second delays in the CW transmit chain. To test his theory, I purchased the excellent K1EL keyer and built the kit. With the new keyer installed, I notice that there is perhaps a quarter of a second delay between the side-tone from the K1EL keyer and the side-tone of the Flex 1500. I now regularly turn off the side-tone on the Flex 1500 and use only the K1EL keyer and its side-tone and I notice that I make far fewer errors when sending CW. This is perhaps useful information for other CW operators experiencing similar difficulties when sending CW with the Flex 1500. Regards, Rick McClelland, AA5S Fort Collins, CO ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flexradio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flexradio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Bad fist when sending CW on the Flex 1500
Rick McClelland, AA5S aa5s.r...@gmail.com wrote: I'm a CW operator and my only rig is a Flex 1500. In general, I'm quite pleased with the radio but I have noticed (as have others) that I make many, many errors when sending CW with the built-in keyer on the Flex 1500. For quite some time, I attributed this to operator error until I had a brief email exchange with VE3EGA regarding the Flex 1500. He mentioned the possibility of sub-second delays in the CW transmit chain. To test his theory, I purchased the excellent K1EL keyer and built the kit. With the new keyer installed, I notice that there is perhaps a quarter of a second delay between the side-tone from the K1EL keyer and the side-tone of the Flex 1500. I now regularly turn off the side-tone on the Flex 1500 and use only the K1EL keyer and its side-tone and I notice that I make far fewer errors when sending CW. This is perhaps useful information for other CW operators experiencing similar difficulties when sending CW with the Flex 1500. I've noticed a great improvement as the PowerSDR software has developed, but until recently have shied away from using CW. After a discussion with a friend who trained as a marine radio op and had to be able to send with no sidetone, I now use no sidetone(with a straight key) and find good accuracy. I checked my accuracy using one of the automated decoders and using sidetone it was gibberish but 100% OK without. My opinion is that with digital processing it is impossible to eliminate the delay completely, so if sidetone is preferred it needs to be generated at the key. Now after listening to the weekend contest I'm raring to go! -- Brian Duffell G3VGZ G8AOE Yarm North East England ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flexradio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flexradio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Bad fist when sending CW on the Flex 1500
Hello Brian, My opinion is that with digital processing it is impossible to eliminate the delay completely, so if sidetone is preferred it needs to be generated at the key. It is not impossible at all. One just has to avoid errors. The PowerSDR software runs fine with a Delta44 soundcard and a Softrock receiver with a delay from antenna to loudspeaker of 13 ms with the smallest buffers: http://sm5bsz.com/lir/rxdel/3-26sdr/sdr.htm For good filters you might want 1024 DSP buffer size but that does not mean a long delay. ou should expect 38 ms. I do not know how the TX side is managed in PowerSDR, but in Linrad, my own SDR package, the delay from keydown to full power out is 11 ms: http://sm5bsz.com/linuxdsp/tx/cw/qsk.htm That was in July 2008. Then the delay from antenna to loudspeaker was 53 ms because at that time Linrad could not use ASIO drivers. Today the delay from keydown to loudspeaker output is below 50 ms with good filters and ones own tx rather than a side-tone in the earphones. One can actually hear the echo if there is aurora or a meteor reflection when operating 144 MHz. SDR is not yet a mature technology. With time it will be evident that your assumption is wrong. SDRs actually have the potential to provide better QSK performance than oldfashioned analog receivers because crystal filters are IIR filters while SDRs use FIR filters. 763 Leif / SM5BSZ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flexradio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flexradio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Bad fist when sending CW on the Flex 1500
So why can I send OK with my 5000 but had the same results as complained about when using the 1500? --- On Mon, 11/28/11, Brian briduff...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: My opinion is that with digital processing it is impossible to eliminate the delay completely, so if sidetone is preferred it needs to be generated at the key. Now after listening to the weekend contest I'm raring to go! -- Brian Duffell G3VGZ G8AOE Yarm North East England ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flexradio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flexradio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flexradio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flexradio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Bad fist when sending CW on the Flex 1500
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 3:56 PM, Burt k1...@yahoo.com wrote: So why can I send OK with my 5000 but had the same results as complained about when using the 1500? == This has something to do with hardware differences. I have a 3000, which is quite a bit better than the 1500 that I had previously, but it still requires an external keyer. I've never used a 5000 but I'm told that it has a low enough delay to make the internal keyer work fine. However, no QSK. For that, both hardware and software may have to evolve. Tony KT0NY -- http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352 ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flexradio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flexradio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Bad fist when sending CW on the Flex 1500
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 10:31 AM, Brian briduff...@yahoo.co.uk wrote: My opinion is that with digital processing it is impossible to eliminate the delay completely, so if sidetone is preferred it needs to be generated at the key. I agree. I've measured around a 40 msec lag when using the internal keyer in my 5000A, which makes it very difficult to send error-free CW. The only real solution with PSDR is to use an external keyer and disable the rig's sidetone and use the keyer's sidetone. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flexradio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flexradio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Bad fist when sending CW on the Flex 1500
On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Jerry Gardner jerryw...@gmail.com wrote: : ... I've measured around a 40 msec lag when using the internal keyer in my 5000A... = H. Thanks for your post, Jerry. Sounds as if I got bad info when I was told that the lag was less than the 3000. That would be too much for me, I'd have to turn off the sidetone and use my external keyer. Tony KT0NY -- http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352 ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flexradio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flexradio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Bad fist when sending CW on the Flex 1500
I'm not an avid CW op, I occasionally use a straight key at a pedestrian speed and my 1500 works for that. I'm curious though, don't most diehard CW ops prefer an external keyer over a built in keyer in the first place? Don't the external ones usually have a lot more features? I've always thought of built in keyers on any radio as window dressing, just kind of there to say they are there but not good for any serious day in day out use. Michael, W4HIJ On 11/28/2011 6:44 PM, Tony Estep wrote: On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Jerry Gardnerjerryw...@gmail.com wrote: : ... I've measured around a 40 msec lag when using the internal keyer in my 5000A... = H. Thanks for your post, Jerry. Sounds as if I got bad info when I was told that the lag was less than the 3000. That would be too much for me, I'd have to turn off the sidetone and use my external keyer. Tony KT0NY ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flexradio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flexradio.com/
Re: [Flexradio] Bad fist when sending CW on the Flex 1500
Rick, I did the same thing, although I had the keyer already, and run a Flex 5000. I never tried to run the built-in keyer. I like the on-screen PSDR interface for most things, but I knew I would still want a knob to adjust speed easily. Couldn't imagine having to get my hand to a mouse, navigate to little bitty up/down buttons looking through my bi-focals on a computer screen to change speed keyer speed. I can twist that speed knob on the keyer box while I am sending and never think about it. I believe in coming back to people close to the speed they are sending to me, so I'll be twisting now and again. I didn't use the built-in keyer on my prior icom either-- can't imagine going through the menu's 2 or 3 deep required to change CW keyer speed there either. Recently, my external keyer got packed for a planned move. The Flex and paddles will be hand carried of course. So I hooked the paddles to the Flex 5K directly. I think the Flex 5K has less delay, I can't really hear it at my speeds (slow mo) but there is something different, I make more mistakes. I'll be back to the external keyer when unpacked at the new digs. For me, no big deal since I wouldn't use the internal keyer in any rig that didn't have a speed knob anyway. Steve WA7DUH On 11/28/2011 9:22 AM, Rick McClelland, AA5S wrote: I'm a CW operator and my only rig is a Flex 1500. In general, I'm quite pleased with the radio but I have noticed (as have others) that I make many, many errors when sending CW with the built-in keyer on the Flex 1500. For quite some time, I attributed this to operator error until I had a brief email exchange with VE3EGA regarding the Flex 1500. He mentioned the possibility of sub-second delays in the CW transmit chain. To test his theory, I purchased the excellent K1EL keyer and built the kit. With the new keyer installed, I notice that there is perhaps a quarter of a second delay between the side-tone from the K1EL keyer and the side-tone of the Flex 1500. I now regularly turn off the side-tone on the Flex 1500 and use only the K1EL keyer and its side-tone and I notice that I make far fewer errors when sending CW. This is perhaps useful information for other CW operators experiencing similar difficulties when sending CW with the Flex 1500. Regards, Rick McClelland, AA5S Fort Collins, CO ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flexradio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flexradio.com/ ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flexradio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flexradio.com/
