Re: [Flexradio] [SPAM] Re: Apple mac book pro
No argument on any point you made, Bob. I can only say from experience that making multichannel, low-latency streaming audio work on the machines while running Windows has been a significant challenge; at least for me. I don't question that MatLab and any number of heavy-hitter Windows apps run just fine, but unless you're streaming low-latency audio at high bitrates in and out of MatLab (which is sometimes but not often done) I don't believe it's quite the same thing. Sorry all, my comments probably have fallen into the "not helping" category. We could argue this one 'till the cows come home and it really doesn't have much to do with the Flex per se. 73, Jim, N7CXI Robert Jefferis wrote: Jim, You are absolutely correct - it is not FLEX's fault. But, there is no fault, per se. Sure, the bios and drivers may be proprietary to Apple, just like any particular PC manufacturer's bios is considered to be proprietary to that particular manufacturer. Apple has to provide drivers to map keyboard, mouse, and other overhead functions into the MS world. However, a case in point: if you take the service control thread from today and try to turn things off or modify behavior, the Boot Camp/MS OS user finds that the behavior is identical to a PC from any PC manufacturer. When Apple finally decided to abandon the Power PC and use Intel guts, they also made a marketing commitment to create and maintain Boot Camp. I use a number of engineering application software packages (MatLab, just to name one, that is a serious, high powered windows only application, not a toy) that are only supported under Windows. They all install and behave normally. I certainly did NOT update to an iMAC and Boot Camp just for Amateur Radio. Apple is committed to this duality. Us iMAC users enjoy the best of both worlds. Bob KF6BC On Aug 6, 2009, at 4:57 PM, Jim Barber wrote: My interpretation of the point is that Apple PC's specifically *aren't* "Standard PC's". There are non-trivial differences that set them apart for these purposes. Mantra: At least in this particular, isolated case it just ain't Flex's fault. My .02, Jim Barber, N7CXI Brian Lloyd wrote: On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Tim Ellison wrote: Folks, As per the FlexRadio Users Reflector description (http://www.flex-radio.com/Support.aspx?topic=Reflector_Description), any discussion regarding the operation of FlexRadio's products on unsupported hardware, such as the iMacs needs to be moved to the FlexEdge Reflector. I thought that any PC running Windows XP was standard. So what you are saying is that Windows XP computers from Dell, HP, IBM, Toshiba, Acer, Asus, Gateway, and Grandma's Custom Computer and Grocery Emporium is supported but Apple is not? Seems odd to me given that Apple is one of the largest suppliers of standard PC hardware these days. I would certainly agree if we were talking about running the experimental versions of PowerSDR but are talking about just running standard Windows XP on a Standard PC made by Apple running the standard released software from Flex. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ Message delivered to jeffe...@antelecom.net ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Flexradio] [SPAM] Re: Apple mac book pro
Jim, You are absolutely correct - it is not FLEX's fault. But, there is no fault, per se. Sure, the bios and drivers may be proprietary to Apple, just like any particular PC manufacturer's bios is considered to be proprietary to that particular manufacturer. Apple has to provide drivers to map keyboard, mouse, and other overhead functions into the MS world. However, a case in point: if you take the service control thread from today and try to turn things off or modify behavior, the Boot Camp/MS OS user finds that the behavior is identical to a PC from any PC manufacturer. When Apple finally decided to abandon the Power PC and use Intel guts, they also made a marketing commitment to create and maintain Boot Camp. I use a number of engineering application software packages (MatLab, just to name one, that is a serious, high powered windows only application, not a toy) that are only supported under Windows. They all install and behave normally. I certainly did NOT update to an iMAC and Boot Camp just for Amateur Radio. Apple is committed to this duality. Us iMAC users enjoy the best of both worlds. Bob KF6BC On Aug 6, 2009, at 4:57 PM, Jim Barber wrote: My interpretation of the point is that Apple PC's specifically *aren't* "Standard PC's". There are non-trivial differences that set them apart for these purposes. Mantra: At least in this particular, isolated case it just ain't Flex's fault. My .02, Jim Barber, N7CXI Brian Lloyd wrote: On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Tim Ellison wrote: Folks, As per the FlexRadio Users Reflector description (http://www.flex-radio.com/Support.aspx?topic=Reflector_Description ), any discussion regarding the operation of FlexRadio's products on unsupported hardware, such as the iMacs needs to be moved to the FlexEdge Reflector. I thought that any PC running Windows XP was standard. So what you are saying is that Windows XP computers from Dell, HP, IBM, Toshiba, Acer, Asus, Gateway, and Grandma's Custom Computer and Grocery Emporium is supported but Apple is not? Seems odd to me given that Apple is one of the largest suppliers of standard PC hardware these days. I would certainly agree if we were talking about running the experimental versions of PowerSDR but are talking about just running standard Windows XP on a Standard PC made by Apple running the standard released software from Flex. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ Message delivered to jeffe...@antelecom.net ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Flexradio] [SPAM] Re: Apple mac book pro
My interpretation of the point is that Apple PC's specifically *aren't* "Standard PC's". There are non-trivial differences that set them apart for these purposes. Mantra: At least in this particular, isolated case it just ain't Flex's fault. My .02, Jim Barber, N7CXI Brian Lloyd wrote: On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Tim Ellison wrote: Folks, As per the FlexRadio Users Reflector description (http://www.flex-radio.com/Support.aspx?topic=Reflector_Description), any discussion regarding the operation of FlexRadio's products on unsupported hardware, such as the iMacs needs to be moved to the FlexEdge Reflector. I thought that any PC running Windows XP was standard. So what you are saying is that Windows XP computers from Dell, HP, IBM, Toshiba, Acer, Asus, Gateway, and Grandma's Custom Computer and Grocery Emporium is supported but Apple is not? Seems odd to me given that Apple is one of the largest suppliers of standard PC hardware these days. I would certainly agree if we were talking about running the experimental versions of PowerSDR but are talking about just running standard Windows XP on a Standard PC made by Apple running the standard released software from Flex. ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Flexradio] [SPAM] Re: Apple mac book pro
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Tim Ellison wrote: > Folks, > > As per the FlexRadio Users Reflector description > (http://www.flex-radio.com/Support.aspx?topic=Reflector_Description), any > discussion regarding the operation of FlexRadio's products on unsupported > hardware, such as the iMacs needs to be moved to the FlexEdge Reflector. I thought that any PC running Windows XP was standard. So what you are saying is that Windows XP computers from Dell, HP, IBM, Toshiba, Acer, Asus, Gateway, and Grandma's Custom Computer and Grocery Emporium is supported but Apple is not? Seems odd to me given that Apple is one of the largest suppliers of standard PC hardware these days. I would certainly agree if we were talking about running the experimental versions of PowerSDR but are talking about just running standard Windows XP on a Standard PC made by Apple running the standard released software from Flex. -- 73 de Brian, WB6RQN/J79BPL ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Flexradio] [SPAM] Re: Apple mac book pro
Jack Haverty wrote: Thanks for the explanation - I figured it was something like that. I worked for many years in the computer industry, so I understand about the OS-level issues, proprietary BIOS and such. But I suspect there are a lot of people interested in Flex who don't understand the fine details of computer genealogy, and can't tell a "standard PC" from a non-standard one. It used to be that "standard personal computer" effectively meant any box that would run Windows. Not so any more I guess. I suggest that at least the web FAQs be amended to explicitly say that Macs, even though they are running XP, are unsupported. Personally, my "personal computer" is a Dell running Debian Lenny. I'm hoping that the "new architecture" PowerSDR will eventually mean one can choose what hardware/OS base to run SDR. I've talked with several non-computer hams recently who are very confused about the PC requirements for a Flex. The KB has an article on how to configure a Mac with XP for use with the Flex. But the forum says it's not a supported configuration. The web site says that Windows XP and Vista are supported. But advice on the forums is to avoid Vista at all costs. It's pretty confusing for a non-computer-geek, even before you dive into Firewire and patches and DPCs and such. One of my friends is waffling between a Flex and an Icom as his first HF rig. Given his head-banging experiences over the years with "standard PCs" and the confusion about what computer hardware he would need to buy to pair with a Flex, he's leaning now back towards tried-and-true knobs-and-switches. If I were Flex, ... I'd ship a "Live CD" with each unit, that had *all* the software, patches, service packs, drivers, tweakhounds, configuration settings, and other arcane tidbits needed to make any "standard PC" hardware into a functional, problem-free "PowerSDR Front Panel" for any Flex product. Better yet, make it downloadable, give 'em away at shows, etc. Then anyone could try it with whatever hardware they like - if the Live CD won't load, it must not be a "standard PC". Kind of like the Ubuntu CD - just put the CD in a computer and turn the power on. I've been amazed at the variety of machines that their Live CD runs on. But the success of such a CD will depend on the state of the computer on which the included programs are installed. Undoubtedly there are many computers with all kinds of problems that the user may never have noticed but that may prevent PowerSDR from running satisfactorily. PS - I think you're being misled to think so much about the desktop market. Desktop users almost never use real-time programs, so the software (Windows OS) doesn't support it well at all, and probably never will. Flex users are strongly advised to evict all other software from the Flex PC, and disable any non-radio OS functionality. So that PC is no longer really usable as their desktop general purpose computer. It becomes a dedicated DSP box with a nice front panel. Which is fine, that's how mine is set up and it works well with the F3K. AlacrityPC allows one to disable unneeded services, then save those settings to a special profile. Either this special profile or a standard profile can be invoked at will. Invoke the PowerSDR profile when you want to run PowerSDR, then invoke the standard profile to use the computer for other things. There may be other programs that can do the same thing. 73 Alan NV8A ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Flexradio] [SPAM] Re: Apple mac book pro
Dudley, Thanks for the explanation - I figured it was something like that. I worked for many years in the computer industry, so I understand about the OS-level issues, proprietary BIOS and such. But I suspect there are a lot of people interested in Flex who don't understand the fine details of computer genealogy, and can't tell a "standard PC" from a non-standard one. It used to be that "standard personal computer" effectively meant any box that would run Windows. Not so any more I guess. I suggest that at least the web FAQs be amended to explicitly say that Macs, even though they are running XP, are unsupported. Personally, my "personal computer" is a Dell running Debian Lenny. I'm hoping that the "new architecture" PowerSDR will eventually mean one can choose what hardware/OS base to run SDR. I've talked with several non-computer hams recently who are very confused about the PC requirements for a Flex. The KB has an article on how to configure a Mac with XP for use with the Flex. But the forum says it's not a supported configuration. The web site says that Windows XP and Vista are supported. But advice on the forums is to avoid Vista at all costs. It's pretty confusing for a non-computer-geek, even before you dive into Firewire and patches and DPCs and such. One of my friends is waffling between a Flex and an Icom as his first HF rig. Given his head-banging experiences over the years with "standard PCs" and the confusion about what computer hardware he would need to buy to pair with a Flex, he's leaning now back towards tried-and-true knobs-and-switches. If I were Flex, ... I'd ship a "Live CD" with each unit, that had *all* the software, patches, service packs, drivers, tweakhounds, configuration settings, and other arcane tidbits needed to make any "standard PC" hardware into a functional, problem-free "PowerSDR Front Panel" for any Flex product. Better yet, make it downloadable, give 'em away at shows, etc. Then anyone could try it with whatever hardware they like - if the Live CD won't load, it must not be a "standard PC". Kind of like the Ubuntu CD - just put the CD in a computer and turn the power on. I've been amazed at the variety of machines that their Live CD runs on. No more discussion of Macs - they're experimental 73, /Jack PS - I think you're being misled to think so much about the desktop market. Desktop users almost never use real-time programs, so the software (Windows OS) doesn't support it well at all, and probably never will. Flex users are strongly advised to evict all other software from the Flex PC, and disable any non-radio OS functionality. So that PC is no longer really usable as their desktop general purpose computer. It becomes a dedicated DSP box with a nice front panel. Which is fine, that's how mine is set up and it works well with the F3K. I wonder how big a share Windows PCs have in the "realtime digital signal processing" market...e.g., computers doing realtime DSP in radio astronomy, seismic monitoring, oil-drilling, satellite surveillance, etc. I'd be surprised if it was even 5-8%... On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 13:41 -0500, Dudley Hurry wrote: > Jack, > > The iMacs are not standard PCs due to the way that Apple forces the > BIOS to be set up to try to keep OS X from being run on "industry > standard" hardware. If only Steve Jobs years ago would have just > let go of the Apple proprietary firmware code, we would all be > running MACs or at least Apple's OS instead of Windows. With 85% of > the world running Windows OS, Apple is still running on a closed OS > market, and small at that, I think that Apple's market share is in > the 5 to 8% range of total desktop market. > > So with Boot Camp from Apple (and their drivers included) you are > able to run XP, but it is still not a "standard" PC. Apple could > make a BIOS change, and Boot Camp would cease working. > > > 73, > Dudley > > WA5QPZ > > > Jack Haverty wrote: > > >From the Flex-radio FAQ: > > > > "For FlexRadio Systems products that would be an Intel or AMD based > > personal computer and a recent Microsoft Windows operating system such > > as XP or Vista. > > " > > > > Doesn't an Intel-based Mac, running Windows XP, fit this definition? I > > have a Macbook Pro and an Imac and I was going to try them with my F3K. > > Why is Intel-based Mac hardware, using Win XP, unsupported? > > > > /Jack K3FIV > > > > On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 12:12 -0400, Tim Ellison wrote: > > > > > Folks, > > > > > > As per the FlexRadio Users Reflector description > > > (http://www.flex-radio.com/Support.aspx?topic=Reflector_Description), any > > > discussion regarding the operation of FlexRadio's products on unsupported > > > hardware, such as the iMacs needs to be moved to the FlexEdge Reflector. > > > > > > Thank You. > > > > > > -Tim > > > --- > > > FlexRadio Internet Systems Administrator & List Moderator > > > W4TME > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From:
Re: [Flexradio] [SPAM] Re: Apple mac book pro
Jack, The iMacs are not standard PCs due to the way that Apple forces the BIOS to be set up to try to keep OS X from being run on "industry standard" hardware. If only Steve Jobs years ago would have just let go of the Apple proprietary firmware code, we would all be running MACs or at least Apple's OS instead of Windows. With 85% of the world running Windows OS, Apple is still running on a closed OS market, and small at that, I think that Apple's market share is in the 5 to 8% range of total desktop market. So with Boot Camp from Apple (and their drivers included) you are able to run XP, but it is still not a "standard" PC. Apple could make a BIOS change, and Boot Camp would cease working. 73, Dudley WA5QPZ Jack Haverty wrote: >From the Flex-radio FAQ: "For FlexRadio Systems products that would be an Intel or AMD based personal computer and a recent Microsoft Windows operating system such as XP or Vista. " Doesn't an Intel-based Mac, running Windows XP, fit this definition? I have a Macbook Pro and an Imac and I was going to try them with my F3K. Why is Intel-based Mac hardware, using Win XP, unsupported? /Jack K3FIV On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 12:12 -0400, Tim Ellison wrote: Folks, As per the FlexRadio Users Reflector description (http://www.flex-radio.com/Support.aspx?topic=Reflector_Description), any discussion regarding the operation of FlexRadio's products on unsupported hardware, such as the iMacs needs to be moved to the FlexEdge Reflector. Thank You. -Tim --- FlexRadio Internet Systems Administrator & List Moderator W4TME -Original Message- From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of elan paim Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 11:38 AM To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: [SPAM] Re: [Flexradio] Appel mac book pro hi can some one let me know what i need in order to work with flex with apple mac book pro there is boot camp what i need then win xp to load ?on the partition ? Elan g0uut E&T Paim ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ Message delivered to jhu...@austin.rr.com ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Flexradio] [SPAM] Re: Apple mac book pro
>From the Flex-radio FAQ: "For FlexRadio Systems products that would be an Intel or AMD based personal computer and a recent Microsoft Windows operating system such as XP or Vista. " Doesn't an Intel-based Mac, running Windows XP, fit this definition? I have a Macbook Pro and an Imac and I was going to try them with my F3K. Why is Intel-based Mac hardware, using Win XP, unsupported? /Jack K3FIV On Thu, 2009-08-06 at 12:12 -0400, Tim Ellison wrote: > Folks, > > As per the FlexRadio Users Reflector description > (http://www.flex-radio.com/Support.aspx?topic=Reflector_Description), any > discussion regarding the operation of FlexRadio's products on unsupported > hardware, such as the iMacs needs to be moved to the FlexEdge Reflector. > > Thank You. > > -Tim > --- > FlexRadio Internet Systems Administrator & List Moderator > W4TME > > -Original Message- > From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz > [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of elan paim > Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 11:38 AM > To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz > Subject: [SPAM] Re: [Flexradio] Appel mac book pro > > hi > can some one let me know what i need in order to work with flex with apple > mac book pro > there is boot camp what i need then win xp to load ?on the partition ? > Elan g0uut > > > E&T Paim ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Flexradio] [SPAM] Re: Apple mac book pro
Folks, As per the FlexRadio Users Reflector description (http://www.flex-radio.com/Support.aspx?topic=Reflector_Description), any discussion regarding the operation of FlexRadio's products on unsupported hardware, such as the iMacs needs to be moved to the FlexEdge Reflector. Thank You. -Tim --- FlexRadio Internet Systems Administrator & List Moderator W4TME -Original Message- From: flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz [mailto:flexradio-boun...@flex-radio.biz] On Behalf Of elan paim Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 11:38 AM To: flexradio@flex-radio.biz Subject: [SPAM] Re: [Flexradio] Appel mac book pro hi can some one let me know what i need in order to work with flex with apple mac book pro there is boot camp what i need then win xp to load ?on the partition ? Elan g0uut E&T Paim ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ Message delivered to telli...@itsco.com ___ FlexRadio Systems Mailing List FlexRadio@flex-radio.biz http://mail.flex-radio.biz/mailman/listinfo/flexradio_flex-radio.biz Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/flexradio%40flex-radio.biz/ Knowledge Base: http://kc.flex-radio.com/ Homepage: http://www.flex-radio.com/ Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
