Re: [Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation
Hi, oh, thanks. Sorry. Was some code to put on floating point exceptions on msvc. It's now comment out. Due to a hint from Melchior I deleted turbulence.cpp from the collection, because the diff to the cvs-version was nonsense. @melchior: I will send you the file by email. Maik http://www.mjustus.de/fg/heli060719.tar.gz Melchior FRANZ schrieb: > * Maik Justus -- Wednesday 19 July 2006 00:01: > | http://members.aon.at/mfranz/flightgear/heli060718.tar.gz [78.5 kB] > > Doesn't compile: > > src/FDM/YASim/Model.cpp:215: error: '_clearfp' was not declared in this scope > src/FDM/YASim/Model.cpp:215: error: '_EM_INEXACT' was not declared in this > scope > src/FDM/YASim/Model.cpp:215: error: '_EM_INVALID' was not declared in this > scope > src/FDM/YASim/Model.cpp:215: error: '_EM_UNDERFLOW' was not declared in this > scope > src/FDM/YASim/Model.cpp:215: error: '_MCW_EM' was not declared in this scope > src/FDM/YASim/Model.cpp:215: error: '_controlfp' was not declared in this > scope > > m. > > - > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your > opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash > http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV > ___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel > > > - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation
* Maik Justus -- Wednesday 19 July 2006 08:42: > http://www.mjustus.de/fg/heli060719.tar.gz Again, if someone has problems downloading it: http://members.aon.at/mfranz/flightgear/heli060719.tar.gz [73.5 kB] > Was some code to put on floating point exceptions on msvc. It's > now comment out. Does still not compile on Unix. One gets a src/FDM/YASim/Model.cpp:24:23: error: windows.h: No such file or directory and has to enable the #ifdef HAVE_WINDOWS_H around that #include. (Will we ever get rid of this HAVE_WINDOWS and HAVE_CONFIG nonsense? No, probably not ...) Compiled, took a ride ... what can I say?! It's quite different now ... The best thing I can say is that it sinks quite fast. But apart from that: it's *extremely* pitch instable, even at higher speeds, which doesn't feel right. I didn't feel the least ground or autorotation effect. All in all ... if I felt my pilots had that much of a fight against the machine as I had, I wouldn't ever fly with them. Or does one just need very good controls now? Maybe I'll have to write an extra joystick config for fgfs helicopters, with a huuuge value ... :-} m. - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation
* Melchior FRANZ -- Wednesday 19 July 2006 12:05: > I didn't feel the least ground or autorotation effect. Heh, or maybe I'm not sensible enough. Yes, I observed some ground effect now. A bit too few IMHO, but that's only judged by my experience with other PC flight sims, so this isn't reliable input. And with some flight hours (well, minutes :-) I'm now a bit more comfortable with the "new" bo105 again. But the pitching remains annoying. Just a *tiny* bit stick movement forward, and I pitch down much too much, have to counter and pitch up too much ... swinging up and down. My poor passengers. Well, and poor me. ;-) m. - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation, bug in Yasim
Hi all, the heli simulation is almost complete for beta testing. Every thing except the vortex-state-detection and the interface to the yasim-engines is working now (the engine is simulated rather simplified, but is working). The feeling is quite different to the "old" simulation (and I hope more realistic). I just have to strip some debug-stuff and to write the documentation. Then I will publish the code. While debugging the downwash effects on stabs I found a bug in yasim (and therefore the root cause for the non working stabs). The patch I posted some weeks ago was nonsense. The result of this was not a working stab, it was such a high parameter for the drag, that the drag of the gear rises to a value similar to the total drag of the helicopter. The stabs had no effect at all. As a bug in yasim all stabs/wings without control-surface-subelements have no aerodynamical effect (not only in rotor-simulation. It's the same for fixed wing aircrafts). For every stab/wing: the outermost part of the wing up to the first control-surface-subelement as well as the innermost part up to the last control-surface-subelement is ignored. The bug is in the wing::compile() function in wing.cpp. In the boundary collection the tip and the base of the wing/stab are missing. Another problem was, that a stab in stall condition is not producing any force perpendicular to the surface (in yasim). I have looked into some naca publications where I found, that in stall the lift is reduced to about 20..30%, but not to zero. The effect was visible in hover. The stabs in the downwash were producing no force. I have coded patches for both problems and will publish them with the rotor-code. @Melchior: -do you have a sample of the sound, the bo produces when flown through narrow turns (I would call this a "flapping sound")?. If yes: the simulation generates a property "stall" for every rotor. Playing this sample with a volume generated by this parameter and a sampling rate by the rotor-rpm should sound quite realistic. -it seems, that the rpm-meter is limited to 100%. Due to autorotation, the rotor-rpm exceeds this value sometimes. -the speed-indicator seems to indicate not only the fraction in the x-direction. I do not know, how the real thing works, but I assume, that it only shows the x-fraction (and only if it is positive). -I will add an torque-property for the torque-meter (is on my todo-list) Best regards, Maik - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation, bug in Yasim
* Maik Justus -- Sunday 16 July 2006 22:26: > -do you have a sample of the sound, the bo produces when flown through > narrow turns (I would call this a "flapping sound")?. No, but I guess one could fake that by taking the 2blade helicopter sound and blend it in. I'll try once I know how the "stall" value looks like. > -it seems, that the rpm-meter is limited to 100%. Due to autorotation, > the rotor-rpm exceeds this value sometimes. Yes, turbine and rotor RPM were limited to 100%. Both were faked as there was no simulated turbine behind it, and the rotor rpm was constant. I've committed a change that allows 140% for both now, which is the maximum scale value. The dual-tacho needs to be fixed anyway. Not only doesn't it have a frame, it also has only two hands, when there should be three, and thicker ones, too. > -the speed-indicator seems to indicate not only the fraction in the > x-direction. No, it seems to only show the forward direction. What makes you think it doesn't? Do you consider wind from ahead? > I do not know, how the real thing works, but I assume, that > it only shows the x-fraction (and only if it is positive). So do I and so it should work already. > -I will add an torque-property for the torque-meter (is on my todo-list) Excellent. That's only faked now, too. m. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation, bug in Yasim
Hi Melchior > * Maik Justus -- Sunday 16 July 2006 22:26: > > Yes, turbine and rotor RPM were limited to 100%. Both were faked as > there was no simulated turbine behind it, and the rotor rpm was > constant. I've committed a change that allows 140% for both now, > which is the maximum scale value. The dual-tacho needs to be fixed > anyway. Not only doesn't it have a frame, it also has only two > hands, when there should be three, and thicker ones, too. > > Thanks. The engine will no exceed 100% now (and in detail, the engine-rpm is not simulated now. I have just a limitation of the torque the engine can produce depending on actual rotor-rpm and the derivation of the rotor-rpm. It produces no torque on rpm>100% >> -the speed-indicator seems to indicate not only the fraction in the >> x-direction. >> > No, it seems to only show the forward direction. What makes you think > it doesn't? Do you consider wind from ahead? > In autorotation I was not sure, if the indicated airspeed is correct. But probably I think I got confused by the fact, that if I vary the inclination of the heli, the speed indicator shows the cos(inclination)-fraction of the climb-speed >> I do not know, how the real thing works, but I assume, that >> it only shows the x-fraction (and only if it is positive). >> > > So do I and so it should work already. > > When flying backwards it shows a positive speed. I think the real speed indicator remains at zero. Maik - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation, bug in Yasim
* Maik Justus -- Sunday 16 July 2006 23:35: > When flying backwards it shows a positive speed. Whoops, you are right. I seem to remember that this worked at some time, and I don't usually fly backwards with a helicopter (which I find quite dangerous), so I didn't notice. The ASI reads /instrumentation/airspeed-indicator/indicated-speed-kt from the "airspeed-indicator" intrument, which delivers positive values for backwards flight, too. Who's responsible for this? David? > I think the real speed indicator remains at zero. So do I. m. - Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation, bug in Yasim
Hi, Great to see how the state of the heli simulation goes on! Great! Hope to see the better bo 105 soon. Quote:"No, but I guess one could fake that by taking the 2blade helicoptersound and blend it in. I'll try once I know how the "stall" valuelooks like" Sounds nice, but I hope you will perhaps use a original sound. I think it must be the same sound when the pilot increase the pitch for lift off: it's a nice sound! Great things you do! Greetings HHS ___ Telefonate ohne weitere Kosten vom PC zum PC: http://messenger.yahoo.de - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation, bug in Yasim
* Heiko Schulz -- Tuesday 18 July 2006 20:19: > but I hope you will perhaps use a original sound. Umm, you mean like the other "original" bo105 sounds? Bad news: none of them is original. :-P (I nicked them from the (GPLed) SAR sim. There were other nice sounds in that package, in case someone's interested.) m. - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation, bug in Yasim
Hi, quote: "Bad news: none of them is original. :-P" That's nothing new to me - I know the Bo 105, too often she flys about my house ( and brings my work ;-)) But it must not a problem to get the real sound, or? Greetings HHS --- Melchior FRANZ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> schrieb: > * Heiko Schulz -- Tuesday 18 July 2006 20:19: > > but I hope you will perhaps use a original sound. > > Umm, you mean like the other "original" bo105 > sounds? > Bad news: none of them is original. :-P > > (I nicked them from the (GPLed) SAR sim. There were > other nice > sounds in that package, in case someone's > interested.) > > m. > > - > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get > the chance to share your > opinions on IT & business topics through brief > surveys -- and earn cash > http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV > ___ > Flightgear-devel mailing list > Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel > ___ Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation, bug in Yasim
* Heiko Schulz -- Tuesday 18 July 2006 20:37: > But it must not a problem to get the real sound, or? It is for me: Neither do I have a recorder, nor are there many Bo105 in Austria (if any at all!). I haven't *ever* seen one, and I usually look and identify them. (But I'm not totally unfamiliar with helicopters. They regularly let me fly in military ones, so I know that flapping sound etc. And we make contour flights and all, not just the cheesy taxi flights. ;-) m. - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation, bug in Yasim
Hi Heiko, > Quote:"No, but I guess one could fake that by taking > the 2blade helicoptersound and blend it in. I'll try > once I know how the "stall" valuelooks like" > > Sounds nice, but I hope you will perhaps use a > original sound. I think it must be the same sound when > the pilot increase the pitch for lift off: it's a > nice sound! > No, i was thinking of a different sound. If the bo turns quickly you can hear a very typical flapping sound. I have several acrobatic videos of the Bo on DVD, maybe I can take the sound from one of them. You are probably writing about the changing sound with and without pitch. For cross fading between this sounds we could directly use the pitch value, or I can add a property either for the a) total downwash or b) for the sum of the abs(downwash) for every simulated segment of the blades (which would give a change of the sound if you are using the cyclic) Maik - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation, bug in Yasim
Hi, > the heli simulation is almost complete for beta testing. Every thing > except the vortex-state-detection and the interface to the yasim-engines > is working now (the engine is simulated rather simplified, but is > working). The feeling is quite different to the "old" simulation (and I > hope more realistic). I just have to strip some debug-stuff and to write > the documentation. Then I will publish the code. > here it is: http://www.mjustus.de/fg/heli060718.tar.gz Only a "very" beta version with some debug- and some unused code (and a fprintf statement), which will be stripped in the final version. But it should work. I have also updated the parameters of the bo105 (and only for the bo105). But there is some fine-tuning to do. But probably we need someone with more flight experience than I have (exactly 0s at the stick of a real one). Here the "what is new" list: - calculation of the rotor in different segments (with a "twist"-Parameter) (but only in four directions (front, back, right, left) - rather realistic calculation of consumed power (and therefore you can autorotate) - ground-effect and translational lift - something like an engine - stall (but I had ti reduce the drag of the blades in stall in comparison to some NACA-publications. With "realistic" values the rotor-rpm sometimes brakes down to unflyable rpm.) There is a stall property in the property-tree for modifying the sound. - downwash effect on stabs and fuselage (I am not sure if the resulting forces are realistic. In the hovering heli the conditions are quite different from the conditions in a forward flying plane. The effect of the vstabs seems to be to small. The effect of th hstab seems to be in right dimension.) Missing: - interface to yasim engines - vortex-state (I have an Idea how to simulate, but I don't know if it is realistic. The vortex statements in the bo105.xml have no function) - calculation of the rotors at more than the four directions - intensive testing (up to now only very short tested with the bo) - the torque property has a bug It's harder to fly than the old heli simulation. The notorque flag is not working any longer. Maybe someone can add an autopilot for the rudder? For rc-helicopter there are gyro-systems, which either damp the rotation (pd-reguator) or hold the rotation at fixed values (pid-regulator). Maybe this can be done in Nasal? I am using a force-feedback joystick without producing any forces. At all force-feedback support would be very nice (some friction and vibrations depending on the aerodynamic forces) Happy autorotations, Maik P.S.: the autorotation is probably to easy now. The parameters need to be adjusted to the real bo. - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation, bug in Yasim
* Maik Justus -- Wednesday 19 July 2006 00:01: > here it is: > http://www.mjustus.de/fg/heli060718.tar.gz There seem to be problems with that server. Maybe this works better: http://members.aon.at/mfranz/flightgear/heli060718.tar.gz [78.5 kB] m. - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] state of heli simulation, bug in Yasim
* Maik Justus -- Wednesday 19 July 2006 00:01: | http://members.aon.at/mfranz/flightgear/heli060718.tar.gz [78.5 kB] Doesn't compile: src/FDM/YASim/Model.cpp:215: error: '_clearfp' was not declared in this scope src/FDM/YASim/Model.cpp:215: error: '_EM_INEXACT' was not declared in this scope src/FDM/YASim/Model.cpp:215: error: '_EM_INVALID' was not declared in this scope src/FDM/YASim/Model.cpp:215: error: '_EM_UNDERFLOW' was not declared in this scope src/FDM/YASim/Model.cpp:215: error: '_MCW_EM' was not declared in this scope src/FDM/YASim/Model.cpp:215: error: '_controlfp' was not declared in this scope m. - Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys -- and earn cash http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
