Re: [PROPOSAL] Finally creating the XML Graphics PMC....

[Jeremias Maerki]

Clay,

a vote is there to decide on certain things. A proposal is merely a
possible course of action that can be discussed. It may be concluded by
a formal vote once all the details are clear. I don't know of anyone who
is clearly against the creation of the XML Graphics PMC. I expect
everyone who has a problem with what's going on to make him/herself
heard, the sooner the better.

I'm simply trying to get attention by using "[PROPOSAL]" in the subject,
to invite everyone to participate in figuring out the details. When
everything's set, we're going to do a binding vote that will show the
board our consensus on the matter.

I hope that clears it up a bit.

On 25.06.2004 16:54:39 Clay Leeds wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Being new to this VOTING thing, I'm a bit confused. I believe I've made 
> it clear in a previous message, that I'm in favor of the PROPOSAL to 
> create the XML Graphics PMC which will be the new 'home' of FOP and 
> Batik, but I'm unclear on how this process works. I'm also in favor of 
> the votes for membership expressed below (scroll down a bit for my 
> specific votes...).
> 
> What I'm unclear on, is the 'legal' difference between PROPOSAL and 
> VOTE. I'd thought that the only time a VOTE really counts is when the 
> SUBJECT includes VOTE. I've searched through the ASF docs, and the only 
> place I can see PROPOSAL discussed, is[1], hence my confusion.:
> 
> [1]
> http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> 
>Rules require that a negative vote includes an
>alternative proposal or a detailed explanation
>on the reasons for the negative vote.
> 
> In any case, My VOTE(s) for this PROPOSAL (assuming they are 
> appropriate now) are below:
> 
> Creation of the XML Graphics PMC
> +1


Jeremias Maerki

Re: [PROPOSAL] Finally creating the XML Graphics PMC....

[Peter B. West]

Clay Leeds wrote:
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Being new to this VOTING thing, I'm a bit confused. I believe I've made 
it clear in a previous message, that I'm in favor of the PROPOSAL to 
create the XML Graphics PMC which will be the new 'home' of FOP and 
Batik, but I'm unclear on how this process works. I'm also in favor of 
the votes for membership expressed below (scroll down a bit for my 
specific votes...).

What I'm unclear on, is the 'legal' difference between PROPOSAL and 
VOTE. I'd thought that the only time a VOTE really counts is when the 
SUBJECT includes VOTE. I've searched through the ASF docs, and the only 
place I can see PROPOSAL discussed, is[1], hence my confusion.:

[1]
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
  Rules require that a negative vote includes an
  alternative proposal or a detailed explanation
  on the reasons for the negative vote.
In any case, My VOTE(s) for this PROPOSAL (assuming they are appropriate 
now) are below:

Creation of the XML Graphics PMC
+1
Very sensible Clay.  It was somewhat premature of me to vote on 
membership before we had a formal proposal for the XML Graphics 
top-level project.  However, I assume the vote on members will still be 
valid when we get to putting a proposal forward, and voting on the 
acceptance of the charter.  If not, we can ask for it again.

Peter
--
Peter B. West 

Re: [PROPOSAL] Finally creating the XML Graphics PMC....

[Clay Leeds]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Being new to this VOTING thing, I'm a bit confused. I believe I've made 
it clear in a previous message, that I'm in favor of the PROPOSAL to 
create the XML Graphics PMC which will be the new 'home' of FOP and 
Batik, but I'm unclear on how this process works. I'm also in favor of 
the votes for membership expressed below (scroll down a bit for my 
specific votes...).

What I'm unclear on, is the 'legal' difference between PROPOSAL and 
VOTE. I'd thought that the only time a VOTE really counts is when the 
SUBJECT includes VOTE. I've searched through the ASF docs, and the only 
place I can see PROPOSAL discussed, is[1], hence my confusion.:

[1]
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
  Rules require that a negative vote includes an
  alternative proposal or a detailed explanation
  on the reasons for the negative vote.
In any case, My VOTE(s) for this PROPOSAL (assuming they are 
appropriate now) are below:

Creation of the XML Graphics PMC
+1
On Jun 25, 2004, at 2:28 AM, Peter B. West wrote:
Peter B. West wrote:
Formally, my votes for membership of the XML Graphics PMC are:
Joerg Pietschmann +1
+1
Glen Mazza+1
+1
Jeremias Maerki   +1 (conditional on his acceptance of nomination)
+1 (conditional on his acceptance of nomination)
Peter
Jeremias Maerki wrote:
Hi everyone,
4. I propose both Vincent Hardy and Thomas DeWeese from the Batik
project as PMC members. I'd appreciate if at least one of the two
accepted even if you can't actively participate in the development.
You know it isn't much to do but it's important to have at least 
someone
on board.
Note that I will vote for Vincent and/or Thomas if they express an 
interest.
As will I.
Vincent Hardy +1 (conditional on his acceptance of nomination)
Thomas DeWeese +1 (conditional on his acceptance of nomination)
Peter
--
Peter B. West 
Clay Leeds - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- -- 
Web Developer - Medata, Inc. - 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Finally creating the XML Graphics PMC....

[Peter B. West]

Peter B. West wrote:
Formally, my votes for membership of the XML Graphics PMC are:
Joerg Pietschmann +1
Glen Mazza+1
Jeremias Maerki   +1 (conditional on his acceptance of nomination)
Peter
Jeremias Maerki wrote:
Hi everyone,
4. I propose both Vincent Hardy and Thomas DeWeese from the Batik
project as PMC members. I'd appreciate if at least one of the two
accepted even if you can't actively participate in the development.
You know it isn't much to do but it's important to have at least someone
on board.
Note that I will vote for Vincent and/or Thomas if they express an interest.
Peter
--
Peter B. West 

[Fwd: Re: [PROPOSAL] Finally creating the XML Graphics PMC....]

[Peter B. West]

This went only to general.  Must get into the habit of actually reading 
the To address.  The discussion seems to have migrated to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Peter
 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Finally creating the XML Graphics PMC
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 18:43:55 +1000
From: Peter B. West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Jeremias,
Thanks for the work on such thankless tasks as this, and thanks for the
nomination.  I have expressed some scepticism about the direction the
Board is taking with TLPs, but it doesn't hurt to have a sceptic on the
PMC.  Like you, I'm sure, I don't particularly like administrative work,
but I'm honoured to be nominated.
I would urge new committers to consider indicating a preparedness (on or
off line) to participate in the PMC.  When I was first elected to the
XML PMC as a FOP rep, I was quite up-front about the appeal of
membership on my C.V., so don't be shy.
I would also like to see you on the PMC, is only because it is fair to
recognise the amount of effort you have put into bringing this TLP into
being.
If you want to bounce ideas about, or drafts of, the charter off me,
please do so.  I'll give what assistance I can.
Formally, my votes for membership of the XML Graphics PMC are:
Joerg Pietschmann +1
Glen Mazza+1
Jeremias Maerki   +1 (conditional on his acceptance of nomination)
Peter
Jeremias Maerki wrote:
Hi everyone,
Berin thankfully pushed again and I'm taking the time for another round.
Considering what I think is the general opinion, here's what I propose:
1. We create that XML Graphics PMC taking Batik and FOP under the new
umbrella. I hope I don't have to explain again that nothing will change
for our users. We will still use the XML project's infrastructure.
2. We will take Batik in even though the patient is in a suboptimal
condition ATM. The PMC to-be-formed agrees to keep an eye on the project
and help if any potential new committer bubbles up. When Batik's life
energies come up to healthy levels again it shall be more strongly
represented in the PMC as people come available.
3. I propose the following FOP people for the minimal initial PMC: Peter
B. West, Jörg Pietschmann, Glen Mazza. I'd also propose at least someof
the more junior committers but I don't know how anyone feels about that.
Please propose any additional candidates as you see fit. I don't propose
myself but I'm available if anyone proposes me.
4. I propose both Vincent Hardy and Thomas DeWeese from the Batik
project as PMC members. I'd appreciate if at least one of the two
accepted even if you can't actively participate in the development.
You know it isn't much to do but it's important to have at least someone
on board.
I'll update the board resolution draft and set up a charter draft during
the next few days (also peeking at the other works). The proposed PMC
members are kindly invited to indicate whether they would be available
for the post. Votes of support are requested for the nominations.
If anyone is against this proposal (or parts of it) please speak up. We
need to get this done.
I appreciate any kind of help I can get.
Jeremias Maerki
--
Peter B. West <http://www.powerup.com.au/~pbwest/resume.html>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Finally creating the XML Graphics PMC....

[Chris Bowditch]

Glen Mazza wrote:
Reconsidered.  OK, I'll join, and reinstate my first
proposal, that of you joining the PMC and (yes) being
its head.
Hi Glen,
glad that you reconsidered, I agree with Jeremias, the PMC needs you. It also 
needs Jeremias, so I second your proposal to have Jeremias on the PMC.

Chris

Re: [PROPOSAL] Finally creating the XML Graphics PMC....

[Simon Pepping]

On Sat, Jun 19, 2004 at 03:30:30PM +0200, Jeremias Maerki wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Berin thankfully pushed again and I'm taking the time for another round.
> Considering what I think is the general opinion, here's what I propose:
> 
> 1. We create that XML Graphics PMC taking Batik and FOP under the new
> umbrella. I hope I don't have to explain again that nothing will change
> for our users. We will still use the XML project's infrastructure.

I have not followed the discussion and do not know the advantages or
disadvantages. Therefore I am neither in favour of nor against this
proposal.
 
> 3. I propose the following FOP people for the minimal initial PMC: Peter
> B. West, Jörg Pietschmann, Glen Mazza. I'd also propose at least some of
> the more junior committers but I don't know how anyone feels about that.
> Please propose any additional candidates as you see fit. I don't propose
> myself but I'm available if anyone proposes me.

Sounds fine with me. I do care about organizational matters, as a
necessary evil. But I have little time to spend on FOP, and I would
not like to fragment it over multiple concerns. Therefore I prefer not
to be a candidate. I have not been long enough on the project anyway.

Regards, Simon

-- 
Simon Pepping
home page: http://www.leverkruid.nl

Re: [PROPOSAL] Finally creating the XML Graphics PMC....

[Glen Mazza]

Reconsidered.  OK, I'll join, and reinstate my first
proposal, that of you joining the PMC and (yes) being
its head.

Glen

--- Jeremias Maerki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Glen,
> 
> but the fact that you're already monitoring
> batik-dev already shows me
> that you're de-facto monitoring the project. Help
> keep an eye on how
> things go on over there. You don't need write access
> to Batik's codebase
> to do that. That's all that's needed. One part of
> the XML Graphics
> proposal (at least for me) is to work closer
> together. Maybe to develop
> common components later. That's another reason I'd
> like to have you in
> the PMC. You've contributed a lot to the XML
> Graphics discussion without
> being in the XML PMC in the first place. Shows me
> that you care. The
> biggest part to get this working is to set up the
> resolution and charter,
> from then on I don't think there's a lot to do. The
> XML PMC list is not
> that active. Please reconsider.
> 
> On 21.06.2004 00:52:04 Glen Mazza wrote:
> > I do know, however, that I don't need the headache
> of being concerned 
> > about it, or the maintenance responsibility for it
> should something be 
> > wrong.  I have way too much work on FOP.  And see
> nothing gained by 
> > being (1) responsible for a product while (2) not
> having write access to 
> > it.  (Even if I did get write access, SVG is not
> one of my main 
> > interests anyway.)  Accordingly, I'm taking myself
> out of this PMC 
> > proposal--I don't care to sit on this PMC.  But
> thanks for your offer.
> 
> 
> Jeremias Maerki
> 
> 

Re: [PROPOSAL] Finally creating the XML Graphics PMC....

[Jeremias Maerki]

Glen,

but the fact that you're already monitoring batik-dev already shows me
that you're de-facto monitoring the project. Help keep an eye on how
things go on over there. You don't need write access to Batik's codebase
to do that. That's all that's needed. One part of the XML Graphics
proposal (at least for me) is to work closer together. Maybe to develop
common components later. That's another reason I'd like to have you in
the PMC. You've contributed a lot to the XML Graphics discussion without
being in the XML PMC in the first place. Shows me that you care. The
biggest part to get this working is to set up the resolution and charter,
from then on I don't think there's a lot to do. The XML PMC list is not
that active. Please reconsider.

On 21.06.2004 00:52:04 Glen Mazza wrote:
> I do know, however, that I don't need the headache of being concerned 
> about it, or the maintenance responsibility for it should something be 
> wrong.  I have way too much work on FOP.  And see nothing gained by 
> being (1) responsible for a product while (2) not having write access to 
> it.  (Even if I did get write access, SVG is not one of my main 
> interests anyway.)  Accordingly, I'm taking myself out of this PMC 
> proposal--I don't care to sit on this PMC.  But thanks for your offer.


Jeremias Maerki

Re: [PROPOSAL] Finally creating the XML Graphics PMC....

[Glen Mazza]

Jeremias,
I agree with you.  Thomas apparently stopped working on it because of 
licensing issues.  For all I know about Batik--next to nothing--perhaps 
it links with 10-15 libraries, half of which may have incompatible or 
out-of-date licensing.  I have no clue, and I'm not motivated enough to 
study its code base to find out.

I do know, however, that I don't need the headache of being concerned 
about it, or the maintenance responsibility for it should something be 
wrong.  I have way too much work on FOP.  And see nothing gained by 
being (1) responsible for a product while (2) not having write access to 
it.  (Even if I did get write access, SVG is not one of my main 
interests anyway.)  Accordingly, I'm taking myself out of this PMC 
proposal--I don't care to sit on this PMC.  But thanks for your offer.

Also, based on your response, I'm going to rescind my three proposals.  
If you are interested in any of them, please propose yourself, or wait 
for another team member to propose you.

Thanks,
Glen
Jeremias Maerki wrote:
Yeah, take up some tedious job and end up with even more in your
rucksack. If it has to be I can do the PMC head job but I'd rather have
someone else do that, like Peter, for example. You know how limited my
Apache time budget is, lately. Nowadays I'm simply more an observer than
anything else.
As for the Batik committership idea, I don't think that's a good one. I
don't know the Batik codebase well enough to do any serious testing as
is required when you apply a patch. There's simply too much that can go
wrong. I'd have to find out how the whole testing infrastructure works
etc. etc. Too time-consuming. I'd rather we find ways to revive the
project from within the Batik community.
On 19.06.2004 16:15:55 Glen Mazza wrote:
 

Everything is fine--especially adding me to the PMC
;)--but three more proposals to add:
1.)  Jeremias Maerki added to this PMC and also made
head of it.  

2.)  Jeremias Maerki automatically added as committer
to the Batik project at (or just before) time of
formation of XML Graphics.  Batik has not been active
for quite some time, and it needs more committers to
be able to apply patches to its code base.  He is
already well trained in SVG and Java Graphics.
[Bulletin:  Apparently Batik will be getting one more
committer soon:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=batik-dev&m=108739195725928&w=2]
3.)  Upon becoming committer, as "price" for Batik
committership, Jeremias will update the licenses on
its source files to the 2.0 license.
   


Jeremias Maerki
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Finally creating the XML Graphics PMC....

[Jeremias Maerki]

Yeah, take up some tedious job and end up with even more in your
rucksack. If it has to be I can do the PMC head job but I'd rather have
someone else do that, like Peter, for example. You know how limited my
Apache time budget is, lately. Nowadays I'm simply more an observer than
anything else.

As for the Batik committership idea, I don't think that's a good one. I
don't know the Batik codebase well enough to do any serious testing as
is required when you apply a patch. There's simply too much that can go
wrong. I'd have to find out how the whole testing infrastructure works
etc. etc. Too time-consuming. I'd rather we find ways to revive the
project from within the Batik community.

On 19.06.2004 16:15:55 Glen Mazza wrote:
> Everything is fine--especially adding me to the PMC
> ;)--but three more proposals to add:
> 
> 1.)  Jeremias Maerki added to this PMC and also made
> head of it.  
>
> 2.)  Jeremias Maerki automatically added as committer
> to the Batik project at (or just before) time of
> formation of XML Graphics.  Batik has not been active
> for quite some time, and it needs more committers to
> be able to apply patches to its code base.  He is
> already well trained in SVG and Java Graphics.
> 
> [Bulletin:  Apparently Batik will be getting one more
> committer soon:
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=batik-dev&m=108739195725928&w=2]
> 
> 3.)  Upon becoming committer, as "price" for Batik
> committership, Jeremias will update the licenses on
> its source files to the 2.0 license.


Jeremias Maerki

Re: [PROPOSAL] Finally creating the XML Graphics PMC....

[Clay Leeds]

This seems like a sound proposal to me. Batik being such an important
component of the family, it is important to keep it maintained. See below
for other comments...

Glen Mazza said:
> Everything is fine--especially adding me to the PMC
> ;)--but three more proposals to add:
>
> 1.)  Jeremias Maerki added to this PMC and also made
> head of it.

Hear! Hear!

> 2.)  Jeremias Maerki automatically added as committer
> to the Batik project at (or just before) time of
> formation of XML Graphics.  Batik has not been active
> for quite some time, and it needs more committers to
> be able to apply patches to its code base.  He is
> already well trained in SVG and Java Graphics.
>
> [Bulletin:  Apparently Batik will be getting one more
> committer soon:
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=batik-dev&m=108739195725928&w=2]

Makes sense to me...

> 3.)  Upon becoming committer, as "price" for Batik
> committership, Jeremias will update the licenses on
> its source files to the 2.0 license.

Having recently completed the same thing for FOP I can think of no one
more 'qualified'!

> Glen
>
> --- Jeremias Maerki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> Berin thankfully pushed again and I'm taking the
>> time for another round.
>> Considering what I think is the general opinion,
>> here's what I propose:
>>
>> 1. We create that XML Graphics PMC taking Batik and
>> FOP under the new
>> umbrella. I hope I don't have to explain again that
>> nothing will change
>> for our users. We will still use the XML project's
>> infrastructure.
>>
>> 2. We will take Batik in even though the patient is
>> in a suboptimal
>> condition ATM. The PMC to-be-formed agrees to keep
>> an eye on the project
>> and help if any potential new committer bubbles up.
>> When Batik's life
>> energies come up to healthy levels again it shall be
>> more strongly
>> represented in the PMC as people come available.
>>
>> 3. I propose the following FOP people for the
>> minimal initial PMC: Peter
>> B. West, Jörg Pietschmann, Glen Mazza. I'd also
>> propose at least some of
>> the more junior committers but I don't know how
>> anyone feels about that.
>> Please propose any additional candidates as you see
>> fit. I don't propose
>> myself but I'm available if anyone proposes me.

I'm happy to assist in any capacity I'm able to assist.

>> 4. I propose both Vincent Hardy and Thomas DeWeese
>> from the Batik
>> project as PMC members. I'd appreciate if at least
>> one of the two
>> accepted even if you can't actively participate in
>> the development.
>> You know it isn't much to do but it's important to
>> have at least someone
>> on board.

I couldn't agree more. Having the most active participants on the PMC is
important in maintaining the 'flow' of development. It might also be good
to invite other Batik contributors as well, although I'm not particularly
familiar with the history of Batik.

>> I'll update the board resolution draft and set up a
>> charter draft during
>> the next few days (also peeking at the other works).
>> The proposed PMC
>> members are kindly invited to indicate whether they
>> would be available
>> for the post. Votes of support are requested for the
>> nominations.
>>
>> If anyone is against this proposal (or parts of it)
>> please speak up. We
>> need to get this done.
>>
>> I appreciate any kind of help I can get.
>>
>> Jeremias Maerki

Thank you, Jeremias for doing all this work, and following thorugh to make
certain things go as smoothly as possible. This sounds like a well
thought-out proposal, and I hope it is viewed favorably by all involved.

Web Maestro Clay

Re: [PROPOSAL] Finally creating the XML Graphics PMC....

[Glen Mazza]

Everything is fine--especially adding me to the PMC
;)--but three more proposals to add:

1.)  Jeremias Maerki added to this PMC and also made
head of it.  

2.)  Jeremias Maerki automatically added as committer
to the Batik project at (or just before) time of
formation of XML Graphics.  Batik has not been active
for quite some time, and it needs more committers to
be able to apply patches to its code base.  He is
already well trained in SVG and Java Graphics.

[Bulletin:  Apparently Batik will be getting one more
committer soon:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=batik-dev&m=108739195725928&w=2]

3.)  Upon becoming committer, as "price" for Batik
committership, Jeremias will update the licenses on
its source files to the 2.0 license.

Glen


--- Jeremias Maerki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Berin thankfully pushed again and I'm taking the
> time for another round.
> Considering what I think is the general opinion,
> here's what I propose:
> 
> 1. We create that XML Graphics PMC taking Batik and
> FOP under the new
> umbrella. I hope I don't have to explain again that
> nothing will change
> for our users. We will still use the XML project's
> infrastructure.
> 
> 2. We will take Batik in even though the patient is
> in a suboptimal
> condition ATM. The PMC to-be-formed agrees to keep
> an eye on the project
> and help if any potential new committer bubbles up.
> When Batik's life
> energies come up to healthy levels again it shall be
> more strongly
> represented in the PMC as people come available.
> 
> 3. I propose the following FOP people for the
> minimal initial PMC: Peter
> B. West, Jörg Pietschmann, Glen Mazza. I'd also
> propose at least some of
> the more junior committers but I don't know how
> anyone feels about that.
> Please propose any additional candidates as you see
> fit. I don't propose
> myself but I'm available if anyone proposes me.
> 
> 4. I propose both Vincent Hardy and Thomas DeWeese
> from the Batik
> project as PMC members. I'd appreciate if at least
> one of the two
> accepted even if you can't actively participate in
> the development.
> You know it isn't much to do but it's important to
> have at least someone
> on board.
> 
> I'll update the board resolution draft and set up a
> charter draft during
> the next few days (also peeking at the other works).
> The proposed PMC
> members are kindly invited to indicate whether they
> would be available
> for the post. Votes of support are requested for the
> nominations.
> 
> If anyone is against this proposal (or parts of it)
> please speak up. We
> need to get this done.
> 
> I appreciate any kind of help I can get.
> 
> Jeremias Maerki
> 
> 
>
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