Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
BTW.: (slightly off-topic) I suppose it would be possible to create an FPC compiler running on ARM/Linux and creating ARM code. Do you think it could be possible to create a full featured completely native ARM/Linux based Lazarus IDE including native debugging ? If yes, a binary distribution of same would be nice to have, -Michael ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Vincent Snijders het geskryf: A cross compiler can create a runnable lazarus compiler, it just doesn't actually run win64 code, when creating it, so it tests the win64 capabilities of the compiler less. Exactly what I wanted to say. [ Vincent, we actually agree on something! :-) ] Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 6 May 2010 09:08, Michael Schnell mschn...@lumino.de wrote: BTW.: (slightly off-topic) I suppose it would be possible to create an FPC compiler running on ARM/Linux and creating ARM code. This has been done by several people. ARM devices are usually not that powerful (at least not the boards I have), so native building takes very long. Do you think it could be possible to create a full featured completely native ARM/Linux based Lazarus IDE including native debugging ? Why not? You just need the right ARM board and a toolchain complete with cross compiled libs for the widgetset you are using. I haven't seen an ARM device that uses gtk, though. Henry ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Graeme Geldenhuys schrieb: Vincent Snijders het geskryf: A cross compiler can create a runnable lazarus compiler, it just doesn't actually run win64 code, when creating it, so it tests the win64 capabilities of the compiler less. Exactly what I wanted to say. Believe me, I test the release candidate/release compilers I upload intensively on different OSes, machines etc. with different tests :) (besides the fact that we've nightly win64 regression test runs). This is also why I personally refuse to create more and different installers: I prefer a few well tested installers (on average to create and test one release (candidate) installer takes me one evening) instead of a lot quickly slapped together installers pretending to cover all needs but being actually broken. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 05/06/2010 10:37 AM, Henry Vermaak wrote: This has been done by several people. ARM devices are usually not that powerful (at least not the boards I have), so native building takes very long. Many ARM devices run at more than 500 MHz, even about 1 GHz is not uncommon nowadays. Debian Linux including GUI can be built from source code natively on such devices, taking of course several hours. Why not? You just need the right ARM board and a toolchain complete with cross compiled libs for the widgetset you are using. I haven't seen an ARM device that uses gtk, though. I'm quite new to ARM Linux GUI stuff, bu8t AFAIK, either GTK or QT is used. Can Lazarus be built for QT ? -Michael ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 6 May 2010 11:23, Michael Schnell mschn...@lumino.de wrote: On 05/06/2010 10:37 AM, Henry Vermaak wrote: This has been done by several people. ARM devices are usually not that powerful (at least not the boards I have), so native building takes very long. Many ARM devices run at more than 500 MHz, even about 1 GHz is not uncommon nowadays. True, unfortunately my boards run at 266 MHz. Debian Linux including GUI can be built from source code natively on such devices, taking of course several hours. Yes, I know. I see no reason to compile natively, though, since cross compilation is a lot faster. I'm quite new to ARM Linux GUI stuff, bu8t AFAIK, either GTK or QT is used. Can Lazarus be built for QT ? http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Qt_Interface http://www.klc.net.nz/linux/?page_id=13 Henry ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 05/06/2010 12:32 PM, Henry Vermaak wrote: On 6 May 2010 11:23, Michael Schnell mschn...@lumino.de wrote: Can Lazarus be built for QT ? http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Qt_Interface Of course Lazarus can create programs for the QT Interface. The question was if Lazarus itself can successfully compile itself so that the resulting Lazarus IDE runs with QT. -Michael ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 6 May 2010 11:38, Michael Schnell mschn...@lumino.de wrote: On 05/06/2010 12:32 PM, Henry Vermaak wrote: On 6 May 2010 11:23, Michael Schnell mschn...@lumino.de wrote: Can Lazarus be built for QT ? http://wiki.lazarus.freepascal.org/Qt_Interface Of course Lazarus can create programs for the QT Interface. The question was if Lazarus itself can successfully compile itself so that the resulting Lazarus IDE runs with QT. Under the screenshots section of the qt wiki page, there are links to images of the ide compiled for qt running on linux and macosx. Perhaps you missed that? Henry ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 6 May 2010 12:38, Michael Schnell mschn...@lumino.de wrote: was if Lazarus itself can successfully compile itself so that the resulting Lazarus IDE runs with QT. Yes. Use the menu: Tools Configure Build Lazarus and select Qt as the widgetset. You still need to install the Qt library, Qt developer libraries etc before it actually works, but it is supported. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 05/06/2010 12:43 PM, Henry Vermaak wrote: Under the screenshots section of the qt wiki page, there are links to images of the ide compiled for qt running on linux and macosx. Perhaps you missed that? So Lazarus might run on your Arm/Linux/QT. Thanks ! -Michael ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Great ! Thanks. -Michael ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Am 06.05.2010 12:46, schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys: On 6 May 2010 12:38, Michael Schnell mschn...@lumino.de wrote: was if Lazarus itself can successfully compile itself so that the resulting Lazarus IDE runs with QT. Yes. Use the menu: Tools Configure Build Lazarus and select Qt as the widgetset. You still need to install the Qt library, Qt developer libraries etc before it actually works, but it is supported. hi all, just for your information: debian 6.0 squeeze (still testing) ships the package libqt4pas [1] and two lazarus ide packages, gtk and qt [2]. regards Stefan [1] http://packages.debian.org/source/squeeze/libqt4pas [2] http://packages.debian.org/source/squeeze/lazarus signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 19:40, Vincent Snijders wrote: I don't know where to add this exactly in this thread, but the win64 version of Lazarus includes a native win64 version of the compiler. It is done because I think that to make sure it can compile Lazarus correctly, it has to be able to compile itself correct and create a running executable. Why do you think that a cross-compiler would not be able to create a runnable lazarus or compiler executable? (I'm not sure what the itself refers to in the above sentence) And in case you mean the compiler: under which circumstances does lazarus try to recompile the fpc source tree? (its makefiles or build lazarus commands at least don't do that, afaik) The only caveat I know of is that the top-level FPC makefile does not include support for bootstrapping using a cross-compiler (it is possible to to work around it manually, but that's not very nice). Of course, since a regular i386 compiler is also available, that one can always be used to build a new cross-compiler (and native compiler). Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Jonas Maebe wrote: On 04 May 2010, at 19:40, Vincent Snijders wrote: I don't know where to add this exactly in this thread, but the win64 version of Lazarus includes a native win64 version of the compiler. It is done because I think that to make sure it can compile Lazarus correctly, it has to be able to compile itself correct and create a running executable. Why do you think that a cross-compiler would not be able to create a runnable lazarus or compiler executable? (I'm not sure what the itself refers to in the above sentence) And in case you mean the compiler: under which circumstances does lazarus try to recompile the fpc source tree? (its makefiles or build lazarus commands at least don't do that, afaik) I know I harp on this repeatedly, but I use linux-i386 to build applications (and lazarus itself) for i386-linux / i386-win32 / i386-darwin / powerpc-darwin. If you are getting broken executables then your toolchain is broken. Freepascal and Lazarus are both very capable of working in a cross compile environment. Regards, Brad -- Dolphins are so intelligent that within a few weeks they can train Americans to stand at the edge of the pool and throw them fish. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Jonas Maebe schreef: On 04 May 2010, at 19:40, Vincent Snijders wrote: I don't know where to add this exactly in this thread, but the win64 version of Lazarus includes a native win64 version of the compiler. It is done because I think that to make sure it can compile Lazarus correctly, it has to be able to compile itself correct and create a running executable. Why do you think that a cross-compiler would not be able to create a runnable lazarus or compiler executable? (I'm not sure what the itself refers to in the above sentence) And in case you mean the compiler: under which circumstances does lazarus try to recompile the fpc source tree? (its makefiles or build lazarus commands at least don't do that, afaik) The only caveat I know of is that the top-level FPC makefile does not include support for bootstrapping using a cross-compiler (it is possible to to work around it manually, but that's not very nice). Of course, since a regular i386 compiler is also available, that one can always be used to build a new cross-compiler (and native compiler). A cross compiler can create a runnable lazarus compiler, it just doesn't actually run win64 code, when creating it, so it tests the win64 capabilities of the compiler less. Vincent ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Brad Campbell schreef: Jonas Maebe wrote: On 04 May 2010, at 19:40, Vincent Snijders wrote: I don't know where to add this exactly in this thread, but the win64 version of Lazarus includes a native win64 version of the compiler. It is done because I think that to make sure it can compile Lazarus correctly, it has to be able to compile itself correct and create a running executable. Why do you think that a cross-compiler would not be able to create a runnable lazarus or compiler executable? (I'm not sure what the itself refers to in the above sentence) The compiler. And in case you mean the compiler: under which circumstances does lazarus try to recompile the fpc source tree? (its makefiles or build lazarus commands at least don't do that, afaik) When creating win64 installer (release or snapshot) including compiler. I know I harp on this repeatedly, but I use linux-i386 to build applications (and lazarus itself) for i386-linux / i386-win32 / i386-darwin / powerpc-darwin. If you are getting broken executables then your toolchain is broken. Yes, but you only find out when running it. Now if you use a native win64 compiler on win64, then you actually use a fpc generated win64 binary when creating a lazarus binary, so the chances that you generate a broken binary is less. This is certainly the case for snapshots with daily changing binaries, and I try to keep the release and snapshot building as closely similar as possible, so that snapshot builds can be as previews for release builds Freepascal and Lazarus are both very capable of working in a cross compile environment. Agreed. Vincent ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Vincent Snijders schrieb: Henry Vermaak schreef: On 3 May 2010 23:49, Graeme Geldenhuys graemeg.li...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Going to SourceForge to download the Win64 version of FPC, you have to navigate into the Win32 folder?! Surely it would make more sense to rename Win32 to Windows (so it can contain both 32 64-bit versions), or create a new Win64 folder for 64-bit versions. Perhaps the win32 refers to the version of the Windows API? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_API#Versions No, it refers to the host system. The win64 compiler of FPC supplied by the fpc team is a cross compiler from win32 to win64. Even more: the win64 package is an add on to the win32 installer. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Florian Klaempfl het geskryf: Even more: the win64 package is an add on to the win32 installer. Why is there no native Win64 version? See comments from the following URL. You need i386-win32, to use the win64 version. It seems there is only a cross compiler available, no native win64 executable. :-/ http://www.freepascal.org/down/x86_64/win64-ftp.freepascal.org.var Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Graeme Geldenhuys schrieb: Florian Klaempfl het geskryf: Even more: the win64 package is an add on to the win32 installer. Why is there no native Win64 version? Because it has no advantage over a win32 executable (it is very unlikely that the compiler needs more than 2 or 3 GB and a native win64 compiler is slower due to bigger memoy footprint) and because it would require additional release preparations. See comments from the following URL. You need i386-win32, to use the win64 version. It seems there is only a cross compiler available, no native win64 executable. :-/ http://www.freepascal.org/down/x86_64/win64-ftp.freepascal.org.var Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 4 May 2010 10:11, Florian Klaempfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Because it has no advantage over a win32 executable (it is very unlikely that the compiler needs more than 2 or 3 GB and a native win64 compiler is slower due to bigger memoy footprint) and because it would require additional release preparations. BTW: So why is there a native 64-bit Linux compiler? Shouldn't the same as what you mentioned apply to the Linux platform too? [if not, then I guess it's proof that the Windows platform is crap and slow. ;-)] -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 4 May 2010 10:11, Florian Klaempfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Because it has no advantage over a win32 executable (it is very unlikely that the compiler needs more than 2 or 3 GB and a native win64 compiler is slower due to bigger memoy footprint) and because it would require additional release preparations. Then maybe all this should be mentioned on the Win64 download page on the Free Pascal website. I'm pretty user this is confusing to other people as well, looking for the Win64 native compiler. Just a thought. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On Tue, 4 May 2010, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: On 4 May 2010 10:11, Florian Klaempfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Because it has no advantage over a win32 executable (it is very unlikely that the compiler needs more than 2 or 3 GB and a native win64 compiler is slower due to bigger memoy footprint) and because it would require additional release preparations. BTW: So why is there a native 64-bit Linux compiler? Shouldn't the same as what you mentioned apply to the Linux platform too? [if not, then I guess it's proof that the Windows platform is crap and slow. ;-)] Installing 32-bit apps on 64-bit linux is asking for problems, and doubly so when you must develop. So a native binary is preferred. Personally, I would simply recompile a 64-bit FPC for windows if I had to do 64-bit development on windows. Cross-compiling is OK for small mobile devices, but not for mature platforms and daily development. Michael. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 09:46, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: Cross-compiling is OK for small mobile devices, but not for mature platforms and daily development. Why not? Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Jonas Maebe het geskryf: Cross-compiling is OK for small mobile devices, but not for mature platforms and daily development. Why not? Because it doesn't always work. I run 64-bit FPC under Linux. I have cross-compiled 32-bit Linux and 32-bit Windows executables. The compilation went fine (no errors), but the executables were not runnable on the 32-bit platforms. In the end I had to setup 32-bit VirtualBox sessions with 32-bit FPC compilers to get actual working executables. No idea why the cross-compiling created corrupted executables. Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On Tue, 4 May 2010, Jonas Maebe wrote: On 04 May 2010, at 09:46, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: Cross-compiling is OK for small mobile devices, but not for mature platforms and daily development. Why not? Because of 2 reasons: 1. you can't debug properly. And with that I mean an efficient edit-compile-debug cycle. I tried debugging a 32-bit app on a 64-bit platform, and gave up because of all the small but annoying things that didn't work. 2. You need all libraries installed for the target platform, which is always a pain and sometimes plain impossible. So I gave up. I can't afford to lose so much time on getting things that should just work to actually work, when I can simply do everything natively and not have any of these problems from the very start. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I do say that doing it natively is simply much more efficient. I sleep better as well, then ;-) Michael. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Michael Van Canneyt het geskryf: Installing 32-bit apps on 64-bit linux is asking for problems, Simply running apps, I haven't experienced any problems. Cross-compiling 32-bit (linux and windows) apps, I have had issues. Personally, I would simply recompile a 64-bit FPC for windows if I had to do 64-bit development on windows. +1 I just thought, maybe there is some technical issue with FPC and a native 64-bit executable. @Florian I believe you develop mostly under Windows. Maybe the FPC slowness should be resolved before Delphi releases a 64-bit compiler? At least that way FPC will trump Delphi for a while with no excuses. Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 10:16, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: Jonas Maebe het geskryf: Cross-compiling is OK for small mobile devices, but not for mature platforms and daily development. Why not? Because it doesn't always work. I run 64-bit FPC under Linux. I have cross-compiled 32-bit Linux and 32-bit Windows executables. The compilation went fine (no errors), but the executables were not runnable on the 32-bit platforms. In the end I had to setup 32-bit VirtualBox sessions with 32-bit FPC compilers to get actual working executables. No idea why the cross-compiling created corrupted executables. The above simply does not make any sense. I'm not saying that the above was not your experience, but other than a very strange bug which I have never seen mentioned by anyone before, I have no idea what could cause those problems. It's definitely not some kind of inherent problem of cross-compiling (with FPC or otherwise). Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On Tue, 4 May 2010, Jonas Maebe wrote: On 04 May 2010, at 10:16, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: Jonas Maebe het geskryf: Cross-compiling is OK for small mobile devices, but not for mature platforms and daily development. Why not? Because it doesn't always work. I run 64-bit FPC under Linux. I have cross-compiled 32-bit Linux and 32-bit Windows executables. The compilation went fine (no errors), but the executables were not runnable on the 32-bit platforms. In the end I had to setup 32-bit VirtualBox sessions with 32-bit FPC compilers to get actual working executables. No idea why the cross-compiling created corrupted executables. The above simply does not make any sense. I'm not saying that the above was not your experience, but other than a very strange bug which I have never seen mentioned by anyone before, I have no idea what could cause those problems. It's definitely not some kind of inherent problem of cross-compiling (with FPC or otherwise). I had the same experience as Graeme. Admittedly, a couple of years ago. I never found out why the generated binaries did not work. They simply refused to run, and immediatly exited. (both from explorer and command-line prompt) Michael. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 10:44, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: I had the same experience as Graeme. Admittedly, a couple of years ago. I never found out why the generated binaries did not work. They simply refused to run, and immediatly exited. (both from explorer and command-line prompt) Again: I've never seen a previous post or bug report about this. Jonas ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On Tue, 4 May 2010, Jonas Maebe wrote: On 04 May 2010, at 10:44, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: I had the same experience as Graeme. Admittedly, a couple of years ago. I never found out why the generated binaries did not work. They simply refused to run, and immediatly exited. (both from explorer and command-line prompt) Again: I've never seen a previous post or bug report about this. That's because I was not sure about my toolchain: I never said the error is in FPC. It could equally well be in e.g. ld. But for me, it is definitely an argument in favour of native development: elimination of possible sources of errors. Michael. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Graeme Geldenhuys schrieb: On 4 May 2010 10:11, Florian Klaempfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Because it has no advantage over a win32 executable (it is very unlikely that the compiler needs more than 2 or 3 GB and a native win64 compiler is slower due to bigger memoy footprint) and because it would require additional release preparations. BTW: So why is there a native 64-bit Linux compiler? Shouldn't the same as what you mentioned apply to the Linux platform too? [if not, then I guess it's proof that the Windows platform is crap and slow. ;-)] No. It actually proves that using 32 bit executables (and installer packages!) on 64 bit linux is a pain. On windows, we can cover with two installers Win2k (no idea about Win98) up to Win7 regardless if 32 or 64 bit, on linux things are much more compilcated. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On Tue, 4 May 2010, Florian Klaempfl wrote: @Florian I believe you develop mostly under Windows. Maybe the FPC slowness should be resolved before Delphi releases a 64-bit compiler? This cannot be resolved. A 64-Bit compiler has a bigger memory footprint because FPC uses a lot of pointers and pointers simply double in size on a 64 bit system. This is correct, but it is only a part of the story if I am correct. The i386 version of the compiler is simply much more optimized as the 64-bit version (as are all FPC-generated binaries). Michael. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Florian Klaempfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: @Florian I believe you develop mostly under Windows. Maybe the FPC slowness should be resolved before Delphi releases a 64-bit compiler? This cannot be resolved. A 64-Bit compiler has a bigger memory footprint because FPC uses a lot of pointers and pointers simply double in size on a 64 bit system. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-de...@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel Well, I exclusively use multi core AMD x64 cpus here. I was surprised to figure out all of this a few months ago and promptly removed Win64 back to Win32 on my laptop. But I do use Ubuntu x64 everywhere else. How is it possible that under *nix I'm able to live with the memory performance of 64bit FPC but cannot with Windows? I really think that for scientific computing Linux would be better (since it's free). However, for commercial grade service applications Win64 support for FPC is essential. I was going to raise these issues a while back when I learned of this. I just figured that someone needed an MS Windows XP x64 license... Which I am willing to donate... ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 12:51, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: The i386 version of the compiler is simply much more optimized as the 64-bit version (as are all FPC-generated binaries). That was true pre-2.4.0, but as of 2.4.0 the assembler optimiser is no longer enabled by default on i386 (and it didn't make that big of a difference in previous versions either). There are still some more peephole optimisations for i386, but I don't think the i386 code that FPC generates is that much more optimised than that for x86_64 at this point (or even PowerPC, for that matter). And as far as the speed of the compiler binary is concerned depending on whether it consists of i386 or x86_64 machine code (using -a -s so that the speed of the external assembler is not included): i386-i386 compiler compiling itself: user0m8.180s sys 0m0.694s x86-64-i386 compiler compiling itself: user0m8.096s sys 0m0.736s So at least on Mac OS X there is no real speed difference between the two. Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 13:56, Jonas Maebe wrote: i386-i386 compiler compiling itself: user 0m8.180s sys 0m0.694s x86-64-i386 compiler compiling itself: user 0m8.096s sys 0m0.736s So at least on Mac OS X there is no real speed difference between the two. ... on my Core 2 Duo. Other CPUs may of course give different results. Jonas ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 13:58, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: On Linux, there was a major difference between i386 and x64_64 compilers when running a make cycle'. But I admit that my last test was definitely from before 2.4.0. make cycle not only tests the speed of the compiler code, but also of process launching, make, the shell, and a bunch of other external utilities. If the test was a long time ago, maybe the speed regressions due to the Linux kernel or libraries rather than in FPC. Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 14:05, Jonas Maebe wrote: On 04 May 2010, at 13:58, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: On Linux, there was a major difference between i386 and x64_64 compilers when running a make cycle'. But I admit that my last test was definitely from before 2.4.0. make cycle not only tests the speed of the compiler code, but also of process launching, make, the shell, and a bunch of other external utilities. And, since you are compiling native compilers rather than cross-compilers in this case, its speed also depends on a) the number of source files in the compiler for a particular architecture b) the number of RTL units for a particular architecture Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 13:56, Jonas Maebe wrote: i386-i386 compiler compiling itself: user 0m8.180s sys 0m0.694s x86-64-i386 compiler compiling itself: user 0m8.096s sys 0m0.736s And i386-i386 compiler compiling itself (again using the same options), but with the starting compiler compiled with -Ooasmcse (which is what was disabled by default in 2.4.0): user0m8.047s sys 0m0.687s So it doesn't make any real difference for the compiler. Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On Tue, 4 May 2010, Jonas Maebe wrote: On 04 May 2010, at 13:56, Jonas Maebe wrote: i386-i386 compiler compiling itself: user0m8.180s sys 0m0.694s x86-64-i386 compiler compiling itself: user0m8.096s sys 0m0.736s And i386-i386 compiler compiling itself (again using the same options), but with the starting compiler compiled with -Ooasmcse (which is what was disabled by default in 2.4.0): user0m8.047s sys 0m0.687s So it doesn't make any real difference for the compiler. Summarizing we can state that code execution is not significantly different between 32/64 bit, but the binary and memory sizes make the apps load/start slower. Correct ? Michael. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Florian Klaempfl het geskryf: No. It actually proves that using 32 bit executables (and installer packages!) on 64 bit linux is a pain. On windows, we can cover with two installers Win2k (no idea about Win98) up to Win7 regardless if 32 or 64 bit, on linux things are much more compilcated. I thought we were talking about FPC performance, not deployment. But while you are at it. What if Linux versions of FPC simply used .tar.gz package instead of RPM or DEB? I have tested my executables (GUI applications, not FPC) generated on Ubuntu 8.04.2 with a old Slackware 9.0 [if I remember correctly] (anyway the distro was quite a few years old), and my apps ran perfectly. It's just the stupid .RPM and .DEB packages that prevent installation, due to other external dependencies (eg: pulling in MySQL or Firebird database libraries etc). I'm pretty confident a binary FPC executable can run on much older Linux distros. I anyway need to install Suse 8.0 for some old Kylix 3 project, so I'll be able to test this theory again. :-) Regards, - Graeme - -- fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On Tue, 4 May 2010, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: Florian Klaempfl het geskryf: No. It actually proves that using 32 bit executables (and installer packages!) on 64 bit linux is a pain. On windows, we can cover with two installers Win2k (no idea about Win98) up to Win7 regardless if 32 or 64 bit, on linux things are much more compilcated. I thought we were talking about FPC performance, not deployment. But while you are at it. What if Linux versions of FPC simply used .tar.gz package instead of RPM or DEB? We offer a .tar.gz for download, so what is the problem ? No-one is forced to use rpm or .deb files ? Michael. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 4 May 2010 14:12, Andrew Brunner andrew.t.brun...@gmail.com wrote: How is it possible that under *nix I'm able to live with the memory performance of 64bit FPC but cannot with Windows? This is the exact question I asked Florian, but he side-tracked the answer. [or I haven't read a new reply yet]. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 14:52, Michael Van Canneyt wrote: Summarizing we can state that code execution is not significantly different between 32/64 bit, but the binary and memory sizes make the apps load/start slower. Correct ? Not from my experience with the compiler binary on Mac OS X. There are no significant speed differences at any level in the tests I did (a 5% increase in system time, on a baseline of 700ms, is not statistically significant when using a command like time to check for execution times). Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 4 May 2010 14:55, Graeme Geldenhuys graemeg.li...@gmail.com wrote: It's just the stupid .RPM and .DEB packages that prevent installation, due to other external dependencies (eg: pulling in MySQL or Firebird database libraries etc). I'm pretty confident a binary FPC executable can run on much older Linux distros. I anyway need to install Suse 8.0 for some old Kylix 3 project, so I'll be able to test this theory again. :-) The fpc debs probably need to be split up, like e.g. php does. Then the dependencies would be more fine-grained. Henry ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 4 May 2010 16:04, Michael Van Canneyt mich...@freepascal.org wrote: We offer a .tar.gz for download, so what is the problem ? No-one is forced to use rpm or .deb files ? I don't have a problem, but it sounded like Florian has (or I misunderstood him). From what I understood, he stated that deployment is easier under Windows and able to run on older Windows without problems. I simply stated that Linux deployment is easy too, if you use .tar.gz with pre-build binaries inside (including running newer binaries on older systems - non-gui or fpGUI based of course). -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 15:07, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: On 4 May 2010 14:12, Andrew Brunner andrew.t.brun...@gmail.com wrote: How is it possible that under *nix I'm able to live with the memory performance of 64bit FPC but cannot with Windows? This is the exact question I asked Florian, but he side-tracked the answer. [or I haven't read a new reply yet]. I did not get the answer I expected is not the same as he side-tracked the question. He said a) we distribute native i386 and x86-64 Linux versions because it is not always trivial to use i386 binaries on a 64 bit Linux distribution. The reason for the separate distributions has nothing to do with speed. b) we only distribute an i386-x86-64 cross-compiler because on Windows the problem that exists under Linux does not exist, and there is no advantage to having a native x86-64 Windows compiler (at best it will be just as fast as a i386-x86-64 cross-compiler, and at worst it will be slower) The above is a correct and full answer to the question why we distribute a native x86-64 compiler for Linux even if it is believed to be slower than an i386-x86-64 cross-compiler, and why we do not do this for Linux. Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 15:14, Jonas Maebe wrote: The above is a correct and full answer to the question why we distribute a native x86-64 compiler for Linux even if it is believed to be slower than an i386-x86-64 cross-compiler, and why we do not do this for Linux. ... and why we do not do this *for Windows*. Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 4 May 2010 16:14, Jonas Maebe jonas.ma...@elis.ugent.be wrote: b) we only distribute an i386-x86-64 cross-compiler because on Windows the problem that exists under Linux does not exist, and there is no advantage to having a native x86-64 Windows compiler (at best it will be just as fast as a i386-x86-64 cross-compiler, and at worst it will be slower) This is a cross compiler package from i386-win32 to x86_64-win64. Before you can use it, you need to install fpc for i386-win32. -- Free Pascal website http://www.freepascal.org/down/x86_64/win64-ftp.freepascal.org.var So to be able to compile Win64 apps, we need two installations. The Win64 download (17MB) and the i386 download (35MB). * now installation is more complex than it needs to be. It now requires two FPC versions. * Increases download size * Increases the difficulty in debugging * Cross-compiling doesn't always work, by producing corrupt binaries. * Myth that Win64 compiler was slower than i386 cross compiler (info supplied by you) So now you have a list that negates the benefits of a cross-compiler for Win64 platforms. Simply producing a native Win64 would solve all these issues. Hence Michael and I agree that simply creating our own native compiler would solves all these issues. Something which should probably have been done by the FPC release team in the first place. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 15:29, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: So to be able to compile Win64 apps, we need two installations. The Win64 download (17MB) and the i386 download (35MB). * now installation is more complex than it needs to be. It now requires two FPC versions. I have not yet seen bug reports or problem reports about people struggling with this. * Increases download size That is correct (if you are not interested in ever compiling any Win32 apps). * Increases the difficulty in debugging It does not, unless you regularly debug the compiler binaries that we ship (which I doubt, since they are fully stripped). * Cross-compiling doesn't always work, by producing corrupt binaries. Until today, the people responsible for packaging the Windows releases did not know this. * Myth that Win64 compiler was slower than i386 cross compiler (info supplied by you) I only provided data for Mac OS X. The situation may be quite different under Win64. Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Jonas Maebe jonas.ma...@elis.ugent.be wrote: ... and why we do not do this *for Windows*. I disagree. I think some thought should go into having a multi-threaded system for building projects. If we had a dependency tree worker threads could transverse the tree and compile near instantly. Having a linear compile for projects so 1980s. With CPUs and memory on all new computers in the gig range... I say it's time to start thinking about commercial users :-) With a multi-threaded system for compiling and reporting status, I believe that native compilers would be completely justified... But it's kinda like the chicken before the egg, again isn't it? How ironic to say the least. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 16:01, Andrew Brunner wrote: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 9:17 AM, Jonas Maebe jonas.ma...@elis.ugent.be wrote: ... and why we do not do this *for Windows*. I disagree. I think some thought should go into having a multi-threaded system for building projects. If we had a dependency tree worker threads could transverse the tree and compile near instantly. Having a linear compile for projects so 1980s. With CPUs and memory on all new computers in the gig range... I say it's time to start thinking about commercial users :-) With a multi-threaded system for compiling and reporting status, I believe that native compilers would be completely justified... But it's kinda like the chicken before the egg, again isn't it? How ironic to say the least. Cross-compilers can be just as multi-threaded as native ones. This is a completely orthogonal feature. Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Graeme Geldenhuys schrieb: On 4 May 2010 16:14, Jonas Maebe jonas.ma...@elis.ugent.be wrote: b) we only distribute an i386-x86-64 cross-compiler because on Windows the problem that exists under Linux does not exist, and there is no advantage to having a native x86-64 Windows compiler (at best it will be just as fast as a i386-x86-64 cross-compiler, and at worst it will be slower) This is a cross compiler package from i386-win32 to x86_64-win64. Before you can use it, you need to install fpc for i386-win32. -- Free Pascal website http://www.freepascal.org/down/x86_64/win64-ftp.freepascal.org.var So to be able to compile Win64 apps, we need two installations. The Win64 download (17MB) and the i386 download (35MB). * now installation is more complex than it needs to be. It now requires two FPC versions. ... having the advantage that you can create 32 and 64 bit executables. Further, you shouldn't forget that win64 executables are larger (example from today: ppcrossx64.exe 1774956 bytes, ppcx64.exe 2203296 bytes) so I'd expect a Win64 installer to be 40-45 MB so the additional size due to the two packages is negliable. * Increases download size Not necessarily: I use 32 bit windows (laptop) and 64 bit windows (desktop). To be able to compile 32 bit, 64 bit and windows ce apps, I need to download three packages, I install them on my laptop and on my desktop. Having a native win32 bit compiler and a native win64 compiler and cross compilers for every host, it would require that I download 6 packages, i.e. the double size. * Cross-compiling doesn't always work, by producing corrupt binaries. I'am not aware of a single problem with cross-compiling to win64 and I consider it also as very unlikely because win64 uses no cross-binutils but assembling and linking as done completly by fpc and not a single external program is involved. * Myth that Win64 compiler was slower than i386 cross compiler I didn't see new Win64 numbers yet? Anyways, I'am glad if anybody else volounteers runs, fixes, uploads and tests future win release builds and provides more than the current installers. He might start with the bug complaining that fpc cannot be installed without administrator privileges ;) ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Jonas Maebe jonas.ma...@elis.ugent.be wrote: Cross-compilers can be just as multi-threaded as native ones. This is a completely orthogonal feature. True statement but I fear does not address the issue at hand. You guys really need to tap talent - there's gotta be somebody here that wants to solve the compile times... And when that is solved... the argument of slow compile times as it relates to the reason of not having a native 64bit Windows compiler will then become mute... But then again from your prospective... I would certainly really mull the complaints over since most likely you two would have to oversee the work and get lots of questions along the way. Seems to me like work is being averted here... :-( ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Graeme Geldenhuys schrieb: On 4 May 2010 16:04, Michael Van Canneyt mich...@freepascal.org wrote: We offer a .tar.gz for download, so what is the problem ? No-one is forced to use rpm or .deb files ? I don't have a problem, but it sounded like Florian has (or I misunderstood him). From what I understood, he stated that deployment is easier under Windows It is *part* of the problem yes. Just look at the lib64/lib mess or finding the right gcc on linux. and able to run on older Windows without problems. I simply stated that Linux deployment is easy too, if you use .tar.gz with pre-build binaries inside See below. (including running newer binaries on older systems - non-gui or fpGUI based of course). fpGUI probably depends as well as the fp text mode ide on glibc etc. so running on older systems is pure luck. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On Tue, 4 May 2010, Andrew Brunner wrote: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Jonas Maebe jonas.ma...@elis.ugent.be wrote: Cross-compilers can be just as multi-threaded as native ones. This is a completely orthogonal feature. True statement but I fear does not address the issue at hand. You guys really need to tap talent - there's gotta be somebody here that wants to solve the compile times... And when that is solved... the argument of slow compile times as it relates to the reason of not having a native 64bit Windows compiler will then become mute... As far as I know: The Morfik people solve this in their IDE by continuously compiling your project in the background while you are editing, as a low priority process. When you actually hit the compile button, it's just the linking stage that is done - which is by itself a lengthy process. It's the first thing I disabled, because it eats CPU power and reduces the responsiveness of your PC incredibly. Michael. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 16:17, Andrew Brunner wrote: On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Jonas Maebe jonas.ma...@elis.ugent.be wrote: Cross-compilers can be just as multi-threaded as native ones. This is a completely orthogonal feature. True statement but I fear does not address the issue at hand. The issue at hand of this thread was why is there only a Win32-Win64 cross-compiler and no native Win64 compiler (well, originally it was why is the win64 compiler listed with the win32 binaries). You guys really need to tap talent - there's gotta be somebody here that wants to solve the compile times... And when that is solved... the argument of slow compile times as it relates to the reason of not having a native 64bit Windows compiler will then become mute... There is no such argument, since nobody at any point argued that a native Win64 compiler would be faster (other than maybe you in your last post). But then again from your prospective... I would certainly really mull the complaints over since most likely you two would have to oversee the work and get lots of questions along the way. Seems to me like work is being averted here... :-( Speeding up compilation is always nice (and if anyone wants to dive into the unit loading logic, solve its existing problems and make it multi-threading safe, I'd be delighted -- I already spent several weeks on trying, and largely failing, to merely solve particular bugs in it), but I fail to see how that is in any way related to the current thread. Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
IMO: Native debugging under x64 would be the number 1 reason or justification for doing the work. There is a native gdb for win64. However, I never got a working win64 textmode ide with integrated debugger, so this is no reason. The second would be for distribution. Yes, it increases the release building effort. The third and most important would be for consistency. Is it normal to have to cross compile to a platform you want to develop under daily? There is nothing wrong with cross compiling. We're not gcc where cross compiling is a pain. Anyways.. All of these arguments are worth the discussion as they do in fact relate to why there is no Win64 folder :-) The are multiple reasons why there is no Win64 native installer. However, it boils down into: a native compiler/installer is additional work but it has no real technical advantage over a cross compiler. As said before: if anybody tests, fixes and builds native win64 compilers and installers, I'am glad to upload them, however, I'll concentrate on as good as possible win32 packages. If anybody builds win64 installers he should also take care of people installing the native win32 and native win64 installer and a wince cross installer, nice nasty problem to solve :) ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 4 May 2010 18:33, Florian Klaempfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: If anybody builds win64 installers he should also take care of people installing the native win32 and native win64 installer and a wince cross installer, nice nasty problem to solve :) Contradicting your self. :-) And here I thought you said a bit earlier that installations under Windows is a breeze and Linux is the problem. ;-) -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 04 May 2010, at 16:47, Andrew Brunner wrote: Native debugging under x64 would be the number 1 reason or justification for doing the work. A cross-compiler or native compiler has absolutely nothing to do with debugging (unless you debug the compiler itself). Binaries generated by a cross-compiler are bit-for-bit identical to those generated by a native compiler, and hence behave identically when debugging (barring bugs in the compiler, of which none are known as far as compiling for Win64 is concerned). The third and most important would be for consistency. Is it normal to have to cross compile to a platform you want to develop under daily? If it has no impact whatsoever on the development process, why would it matter? Windows version of gdb offers better stability than that of Xwindows (gdm keeps needing to be started for threaded apps). Then develop under Windows and use the Win64 version of gdb. Jonas___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Graeme Geldenhuys schrieb: On 4 May 2010 18:33, Florian Klaempfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: If anybody builds win64 installers he should also take care of people installing the native win32 and native win64 installer and a wince cross installer, nice nasty problem to solve :) Contradicting your self. :-) Why? Ever tried to install the 32 bit and 64 bit native linux tar installer on one system? And here I thought you said a bit earlier that installations under Windows is a breeze and Linux is the problem. ;-) This has nothing to do with Windows or Linux. Installing two native tool chains on one system is simply a problem. Which fpc will a plain fpc call execute? Will the utilities be 32 bit or 64 bit (fpcmake and friends, fp text mode ide). If always the native one is choosen, how to call the other one? etc. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Hi! On 04.05.2010 16:14, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: On 4 May 2010 16:04, Michael Van Canneytmich...@freepascal.org wrote: We offer a .tar.gz for download, so what is the problem ? No-one is forced to use rpm or .deb files ? I don't have a problem, but it sounded like Florian has (or I misunderstood him). From what I understood, he stated that deployment is easier under Windows and able to run on older Windows without problems. I simply stated that Linux deployment is easy too, if you use .tar.gz with pre-build binaries inside (including running newer binaries on older systems - non-gui or fpGUI based of course). Florian wants to say that you might not be able to run a i386 binary on a x86_64 Linux. This is for example the case on my desktop (ArchLinux x64) which I haven't configured yet to be able to run i386 binaries, cause I didn't have the need yet. Most applications that are available in the package manager are available for both platforms. And for FPC I simply compiled a new compiler for 64 bit and was happy. On Windows you don't have this problem, as all 64 bit variants ship with a Windows On Windows 64 system that allows you to run 32 bit binaries on a 64 bit system without problems (Win64 would have been a dead birth if Microsoft hadn't done this). Thus there is no real need to ship a 64 bit version of the compiler. Regards, Sven ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Jonas Maebe schreef: On 04 May 2010, at 15:29, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote: So to be able to compile Win64 apps, we need two installations. The Win64 download (17MB) and the i386 download (35MB). * now installation is more complex than it needs to be. It now requires two FPC versions. I don't know where to add this exactly in this thread, but the win64 version of Lazarus includes a native win64 version of the compiler. It is done because I think that to make sure it can compile Lazarus correctly, it has to be able to compile itself correct and create a running executable. Vincent ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 4 May 2010 17:27, Michael Van Canneyt mich...@freepascal.org wrote: fpGUI probably depends as well as the fp text mode ide on glibc etc. so running on older systems is pure luck. This is correct. I did some tests for this when still running SuSE. Only binaries that do not depend on LibC will run on old linux distros. Either way, I installed SuSE 9.0 on a spare hard drive. Copied over fpGUI binaries created on Ubuntu 9.10 compiled today, or in the last two months. They ran perfectly and without problems. And as a bonus, Kylix 3 installed without a hitch (something that seldom occurs). :-) Apps included in the test was some fpGUI demos (even one old fpGUI v0.4 demo), the fpGUI UI Designer, DocView etc.. SuSE 9.0 is about 7-8 years old. That's a lifetime for Linux, considering how fast things change in Linux. The other point being that it is a free OS, so nothing prevents users from continuously upgrading as new distro versions are released - no need to be left behind. So Florian and Michael, I would safely say a new binary created with FPC (non-gui or fpGUI based) would run perfectly fine on rather old Linux distros. I found my copy of SuSE 8.0, so will be trying that one next. I should have SuSE 7.x somewhere as well. ;-) And for some proof and for your viewing pleasure, visit the following url. http://opensoft.homeip.net/~graemeg/fpgui-on-suse-9.0.png -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 4 May 2010 19:38, Florian Klaempfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Ever tried to install the 32 bit and 64 bit native linux tar installer on one system? Yes, I have both on my 64-bit Ubuntu 8.04.2 system at work. It was easier to setup that cross-compiling (at least it was for me), but installing native FPC's in VirtualBox sessions still gave me the least amount of trouble. This has nothing to do with Windows or Linux. Installing two native tool chains on one system is simply a problem. Which fpc will a plain fpc call execute? Will the utilities be 32 bit or 64 bit (fpcmake and I don't think I have ever used 'fpc' command to compile something. I always call the correct ppcXXX command directly. I don't actually know what's the point of the 'fpc' executable Directory layout is as follows: /opt/fpc-2.4.1/x86_64-linux/bin -- ppcXXX symlink lives here /opt/fpc-2.4.1/x86_64-linux/lib /opt/fpc-2.4.1/x86_64-linux/* /opt/fpc-2.4.1/i386-linux/bin /opt/fpc-2.4.1/i386-linux/lib /opt/fpc-2.4.1/i386-linux/* /opt/fpc-2.4.1/src/ /opt/fpc-binutils/i386-linux/ ~/.fpc.cfg file uses the $fpcversion (because I have 2.5.1 installed too) and the other macro various for CPU and Target. 32-bit binutils is specified in fpc.cfg too. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 4 May 2010 20:18, Sven Barth pascaldra...@googlemail.com wrote: Microsoft hadn't done this). Thus there is no real need to ship a 64 bit version of the compiler. This still seems a bit short-sighted to me. It now simply places the burden on the developer to compile there own 64-bit version of FPC - but I guess that's the FPC Team's choice. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 4 May 2010 20:40, Vincent Snijders vsnijd...@vodafonevast.nl wrote: I don't know where to add this exactly in this thread, but the win64 version of Lazarus includes a native win64 version of the compiler. It is done Kudos to the Lazarus team! :-) -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Graeme Geldenhuys schrieb: On 4 May 2010 19:38, Florian Klaempfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: Ever tried to install the 32 bit and 64 bit native linux tar installer on one system? Yes, I have both on my 64-bit Ubuntu 8.04.2 system at work. It was easier to setup that cross-compiling (at least it was for me), but installing native FPC's in VirtualBox sessions still gave me the least amount of trouble. Least amount is not no amount. This has nothing to do with Windows or Linux. Installing two native tool chains on one system is simply a problem. Which fpc will a plain fpc call execute? Will the utilities be 32 bit or 64 bit (fpcmake and I don't think I have ever used 'fpc' command to compile something. I always call the correct ppcXXX command directly. I don't actually know what's the point of the 'fpc' executable Directory layout is as follows: /opt/fpc-2.4.1/x86_64-linux/bin -- ppcXXX symlink lives here /opt/fpc-2.4.1/x86_64-linux/lib /opt/fpc-2.4.1/x86_64-linux/* /opt/fpc-2.4.1/i386-linux/bin /opt/fpc-2.4.1/i386-linux/lib /opt/fpc-2.4.1/i386-linux/* /opt/fpc-2.4.1/src/ /opt/fpc-binutils/i386-linux/ We don't ship any .tar.gz containing 2.4.1? ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Graeme Geldenhuys schrieb: So Florian and Michael, I would safely say a new binary created with FPC (non-gui or fpGUI based) would run perfectly fine on rather old Linux distros. Well, even more FPC itself. This is also why we ship .tar.gzs ;) I'am the first one to agree to ship only .tar.gz, I wouldn't create rpm/debs. But believe me, if we ship only .tar.gz, another person will pop up and write lengthy emails how important .debs and .rpms are. Luckily enough, we've people who do not write only emails but who create patches for deb/rpm building and who build those. Graeme Geldenhuys schrieb: On 4 May 2010 20:18, Sven Barth pascaldra...@googlemail.com wrote: Microsoft hadn't done this). Thus there is no real need to ship a 64 bit version of the compiler. This still seems a bit short-sighted to me. It now simply places the burden on the developer to compile there own 64-bit version of FPC - No. Because there is no reason to do so which compensates the extra work to create a win64 native installer. ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 4 May 2010 22:05, Florian Klaempfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: We don't ship any .tar.gz containing 2.4.1? With my various build scrips and the 'git archive' command, I have been creating my own fixes versions for months. Our fixes builds created via our scripts use the latest stable release as starting compiler - in this case that is 2.4.0 (which we download from SourceForge). We use our own fixes releases internally in our company, for development and testing. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Graeme Geldenhuys schrieb: On 4 May 2010 22:05, Florian Klaempfl flor...@freepascal.org wrote: We don't ship any .tar.gz containing 2.4.1? With my various build scrips and the 'git archive' command, I have been creating my own fixes versions for months. I wanted only to point out that your setup is not simply created by unpacking the two .tar.gz installers for x86-64 and i386 we provide :) ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
[fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Hi, Going to SourceForge to download the Win64 version of FPC, you have to navigate into the Win32 folder?! Surely it would make more sense to rename Win32 to Windows (so it can contain both 32 64-bit versions), or create a new Win64 folder for 64-bit versions. -- Regards, - Graeme - ___ fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit http://opensoft.homeip.net/fpgui/ ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
On 3 May 2010 23:49, Graeme Geldenhuys graemeg.li...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Going to SourceForge to download the Win64 version of FPC, you have to navigate into the Win32 folder?! Surely it would make more sense to rename Win32 to Windows (so it can contain both 32 64-bit versions), or create a new Win64 folder for 64-bit versions. Perhaps the win32 refers to the version of the Windows API? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_API#Versions Henry ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
Re: [fpc-devel] Win64 FPC is in wrong download location
Henry Vermaak schreef: On 3 May 2010 23:49, Graeme Geldenhuys graemeg.li...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Going to SourceForge to download the Win64 version of FPC, you have to navigate into the Win32 folder?! Surely it would make more sense to rename Win32 to Windows (so it can contain both 32 64-bit versions), or create a new Win64 folder for 64-bit versions. Perhaps the win32 refers to the version of the Windows API? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_API#Versions No, it refers to the host system. The win64 compiler of FPC supplied by the fpc team is a cross compiler from win32 to win64. Vincent ___ fpc-devel maillist - fpc-devel@lists.freepascal.org http://lists.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/fpc-devel
