Re:(2) hey
Well, I am the person who has this problem. The RFCs does not explicitly say that we should not use underscore character as far as I understood. But it suggests which characters we should use. Also in RFC1033 it says (well the status of this one is UNKNOWN though) - The domain system allows a label to contain any 8-bit character. Although the domain system has no restrictions, other protocols such as SMTP do have name restrictions. Because of other protocol restrictions, only the following characters are recommended for use in a host name (besides the dot separator): "A-Z", "a-z", "0-9", dash and underscore - So Solaris does the right thing by understanding underscore I guess. Since it is not forbidden to use it in hostnames. http://www.crynwr.com/crynwr/rfc1035/rfc1035.html#2.3.1. - For example, when naming a mail domain, the user should satisfy both the rules of this memo and those in RFC-822. When creating a new host name, the old rules for HOSTS.TXT should be followed. This avoids problems when old software is converted to use domain names. The following syntax will result in fewer problems with many applications that use domain names (e.g., mail, TELNET). ::= | " " ::= | "." ::= [ [ ] ] ::= | ::= | "-" ::= | ::= any one of the 52 alphabetic characters A through Z in upper case and a through z in lower case ::= any one of the ten digits 0 through 9 - BTW. I could not really understand this explanation in RFC1035. This is very cryptic for me :( Thanks for the help Evren Yurtesen yurte...@ispro.net.tr Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Michael Mannsberger wrote: > > > ping www.atayatirim.com.tr works under Sun but not in FreeBSD - why? > > FreeBSD doesn't like "_" in a URL > > Uhm, that's a hostname, but yes, FreeBSD doesn't like it. Windows is > okay with it, however. > > http://www.crynwr.com/crynwr/rfc1035/rfc1035.html#2.3.1. > However explains why this hostname is not allowed. FreeBSD is not violating > RFC. > > -- > - bill fumerola - bi...@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - > - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfume...@computerhorizons.com - bi...@freebsd.org - > > hawk% ping wam_notes.internal.chc-chimes.com > ping: cannot resolve wam_notes.internal.chc-chimes.com: Unknown server error > hawk% dig wam_notes.internal.chc-chimes.com |grep notes > ; <<>> DiG 8.1 <<>> wam_notes.internal.chc-chimes.com > ;; wam_notes.internal.chc-chimes.com, type = A, class = IN > wam_notes.internal.chc-chimes.com. 1D IN CNAME > notes.internal.chc-chimes.com. > notes.internal.chc-chimes.com. 1D IN A 172.16.81.245 > > It should be noted that the dns server that my workstation queried is running > FreeBSD and has no trouble _serving_ hostnames with an underscore. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re:(2) hey
> Well, I am the person who has this problem. > The RFCs does not explicitly say that we should not use underscore > character > as far as I understood. But it suggests which characters we should use. > RFC 952 1. A "name" (Net, Host, Gateway, or Domain name) is a text string up to 24 characters drawn from the alphabet (A-Z), digits (0-9), minus sign (-), and period (.). Note that periods are only allowed when they serve to delimit components of "domain style names". RFC 1101 The current syntax for network names, as defined by [RFC 952] is an alphanumeric string of up to 24 characters, which begins with an alpha, and may include "." and "-" except as first and last characters. This is the format which was also used for host names before the DNS. Upward compatibility with existing names might be a goal of any new scheme. The above two documents limit the characters that may be used a a _ is not one of them. FreeBSD behaves correctly in this manner. RFC 1033 is only a informational RFC and should not be treated as a standard. glenn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
> > Well, I am the person who has this problem. > > The RFCs does not explicitly say that we should not use underscore > > character > > as far as I understood. But it suggests which characters we should use. > > > RFC 952 > >1. A "name" (Net, Host, Gateway, or Domain name) is a text string up >to 24 characters drawn from the alphabet (A-Z), digits (0-9), minus >sign (-), and period (.). Note that periods are only allowed when >they serve to delimit components of "domain style names". > > RFC 1101 > >The current syntax for network names, as defined by [RFC 952] is an >alphanumeric string of up to 24 characters, which begins with an >alpha, and may include "." and "-" except as first and last >characters. This is the format which was also used for host names >before the DNS. Upward compatibility with existing names might be a >goal of any new scheme. > > The above two documents limit the characters that may be used a a _ is not > one of them. FreeBSD behaves correctly in this manner. But the DNS is used to hold all sorts of information. For example, how do you reconcile domain names like: 42.10.202.144.IN-ADDR.ARPA in the DNS? It violates the "starts with alpha" "requirement" in 952 and 1101 that you quotes, yet we use these things all the time. In fact, you can send email to that domain name because it has an A record associated with it, as well as a PTR record. I've always thought that the code that barfs on these names in gethostbyname() really violates the "be conservative in what you send, and liberal in what you receive" thought that made the Internet work. Yeah, yeah, BIND does it, but that's no excuse, either. What do I know; I was just the first chair of the domain name working group in the IETF so many years ago before it got fashionable. grumble, louie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re:(2) hey
On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Evren Yurtesen wrote: > Well, I am the person who has this problem. > The RFCs does not explicitly say that we should not use underscore > character > as far as I understood. This is a common misunderstanding. The only valid characters in hostnames to be used on the global internet are letters, numbers and the dash character, "-". Underscores are not valid, at all, period. I realize that the RFC's don't seem to be clear on this point, however you can rest assured that such is the case. Good luck, Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
> So Solaris does the right thing by understanding underscore I guess. > Since it is not forbidden to use it in hostnames. It does not do the right thing and it is indeed forbidden. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
> But the DNS is used to hold all sorts of information. For example, how do > you reconcile domain names like: > > 42.10.202.144.IN-ADDR.ARPA > > in the DNS? It violates the "starts with alpha" "requirement" in 952 and 1101 > that you quotes, yet we use these things all the time. In fact, you can > send email to that domain name because it has an A record associated with > it, as well as a PTR record. How do I reconcile it? Well I must admit that I have not seen that one before. However just because there is a domain out there that is incorrect and will resolve does not mean that we should allow others. The way I reconcile this is that we need a patch for the resolver and I will be sure to mail one to the Internet Software Consortium. There are a number of cases where there are issues with implimentations of protocols, TCP, RMON where they are fixed one problem at a time. > I've always thought that the code that barfs on these names in gethostbyname() > really violates the "be conservative in what you send, and liberal in > what you receive" thought that made the Internet work. Yeah, yeah, BIND > does it, but that's no excuse, either. I sort of agree with you here, however allowing this particular situation to occur has just increased the number of non standard domain names. > What do I know; I was just the first chair of the domain name working group > in the IETF so many years ago before it got fashionable. In that case you will know a hell of a lot more than me and I honestly do not want to contradict you. I was 11 when 952 was written and I do not claim to know the reasons or motivations behind the decisions that resulted in that draft. However the Internet is a great deal different, there are a lot more people with a great deal less knowledge and understanding maintaining things like DNS servers etc. I feel that the live and let live attitude that you expouse worked when people like yourself, Jon Pollard etc were the people controling things. That is just no longer the case. glenn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
Today Louis A. Mamakos wrote: > > RFC 952 > > > >1. A "name" (Net, Host, Gateway, or Domain name) is a text string up > >to 24 characters drawn from the alphabet (A-Z), digits (0-9), minus > >sign (-), and period (.). Note that periods are only allowed when > >they serve to delimit components of "domain style names". > > > > RFC 1101 > > > >The current syntax for network names, as defined by [RFC 952] is an > >alphanumeric string of up to 24 characters, which begins with an > >alpha, and may include "." and "-" except as first and last > >characters. This is the format which was also used for host names > >before the DNS. Upward compatibility with existing names might be a > >goal of any new scheme. > > > > The above two documents limit the characters that may be used a a _ is not > > one of them. FreeBSD behaves correctly in this manner. > > But the DNS is used to hold all sorts of information. For example, how do > you reconcile domain names like: > > 42.10.202.144.IN-ADDR.ARPA > > in the DNS? It violates the "starts with alpha" "requirement" in 952 and 1101 > that you quotes, yet we use these things all the time. In fact, you can Read RFC 1123, it makes that perfectly valid. 2.1 Host Names and Numbers The syntax of a legal Internet host name was specified in RFC-952 [DNS:4]. One aspect of host name syntax is hereby changed: the restriction on the first character is relaxed to allow either a letter or a digit. Host software MUST support this more liberal syntax. -- Jack O'NeillSystems Administrator / Systems Analyst j...@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger j...@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Louis A. Mamakos wrote: > But the DNS is used to hold all sorts of information. For example, how do > you reconcile domain names like: > > 42.10.202.144.IN-ADDR.ARPA > > in the DNS? It violates the "starts with alpha" "requirement" in 952 and 1101 E.. even if that argument weren't silly on its face, the 'starts/ends with alpha' requirement has been relaxed for some time now. First for legacy domains like 3com.com, and next for newer ones like 411.com. The only rule that is currently being enforced is that no label can begin or end with a dash. > that you quotes, yet we use these things all the time. In fact, you can > send email to that domain name because it has an A record associated with > it, as well as a PTR record. That IS a violation of the standard, since A records are not valid for hosts in in-addr.arpa. > What do I know; I was just the first chair of the domain name working group > in the IETF so many years ago before it got fashionable. Well, things change. :) Doug -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
> How do I reconcile it? Well I must admit that I have not seen that one > before. However just because there is a domain out there that is incorrect > and will resolve does not mean that we should allow others. The way I > reconcile this is that we need a patch for the resolver and I will be sure > to mail one to the Internet Software Consortium. There are a number of > cases where there are issues with implimentations of protocols, TCP, RMON > where they are fixed one problem at a time. > Well I just got done again. Apparently the alphanumeric starting poing is allowed. Either way I feel my point in valid. glenn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
> > That IS a violation of the standard, since A records > are not valid for hosts in in-addr.arpa. > And next I suppose you'll tell me that PTR records are not valid outsize of the IN-ADDR.ARPA portion of the DNS namespace? What people really miss is that the DNS is a distributed database with delegation, used for all sorts of purposes. Some of them are widely known and almost universal (e.g., "look up and address for this host"). Some parts of the namespace are used as indicies for special purposes (e.g., translate a 4 octet IP address into a DNS name). The DNS can store names where the values used for each octet of a label in a DNS name can have any value at all between 0 and 255, including " ", ".", and other rude things. The general purpose mechansim can be (ab)sed for all sorts of purposes not originally envisioned (like Hesiod - you want to exclude "_" from user names?) While gethostbyname() and it's ilk are used for one limited, scoped purpose is no reason to break previously working configurations. That the ISC got a hair up their ass to break all those previously working names is just a shame. Depending on my application, I might just want to have some part of the DNS namespace return object that look like IP addresses for domain names which are not "hosts." The current implemention of bind makes that impossible unless I want to resort to using the raw resolver routines, which is just busy-work. This is just an example of "smart-ass" software that believes it knows better than the user does. louie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Louis A. Mamakos wrote: > > > > That IS a violation of the standard, since A records > > are not valid for hosts in in-addr.arpa. > > > > And next I suppose you'll tell me that PTR records are not valid > outsize of the IN-ADDR.ARPA portion of the DNS namespace? Given how PTR RR's are defined, I'd have to say, ayyup. > What people really miss is that the DNS is a distributed database > with delegation, used for all sorts of purposes. You get no argument from me there. However there is a difference between defining "louie's_map_zone." and using that for whatever you want to use it for, and trying to hammer your stuff into areas that already have definitions. The tools exist to extend the protocol into other areas as you see fit, and I say more power to you. But please don't try and drum up sympathy for that "DNS should be all things to all people" line, it didn't work well back then and doesn't work at all now. It's all we can do nowadays to get people to configure "normal" things properly. AFAIC, the software could stand to be smarter than it is already because they keep making better idiots. Doug -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
In message <19990817.saa87...@whizzo.transsys.com> "Louis A. Mamakos" writes: : It violates the "starts with alpha" "requirement" in 952 and 1101 : that you quotes, yet we use these things all the time. That requirement has been relaxed. See RFC 1123. Bottom line is that _ is an illegal character in a hostname, and FreeBSD is behaving correctly. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
In message <25455.934497...@localhost> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: : > So Solaris does the right thing by understanding underscore I guess. : > Since it is not forbidden to use it in hostnames. : : It does not do the right thing and it is indeed forbidden. :) Also, all modern versions of bind specifically prohibit all characters that are not allowed to make writing buffer overflow easter eggs much harder. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
In message <199908122308.taa88...@whizzo.transsys.com> "Louis A. Mamakos" writes: : The DNS can store names where the values used for each octet of a : label in a DNS name can have any value at all between 0 and 255, : including " ", ".", and other rude things. The general purpose : mechansim can be (ab)sed for all sorts of purposes not originally : envisioned (like Hesiod - you want to exclude "_" from user names?) This is true. However, for hostnames, such uses are illegal. That's what we're talking about here. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
Doug wrote: >Louis A. Mamakos wrote: >>[lost attribution] >>> >>> That IS a violation of the standard, since A records are not valid >>> for hosts in in-addr.arpa. >> >> And next I suppose you'll tell me that PTR records are not valid >> outsize of the IN-ADDR.ARPA portion of the DNS namespace? > > Given how PTR RR's are defined, I'd have to say, ayyup. I suggest you read RFC 2317 (classless reverse DNS). Among its recommendations are setups like: 130.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa.CNAME 130.128/28.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa. 130.128/28.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa. PTR dotat.at. and: 130.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa. CNAME 130.rev.dotat.at. 130.rev.dotat.at PTR dotat.at. RFC 2181 allows the / in the CNAME RRs. There's no reason for restricting PTR RRs to a particular part of the name space, and indeed this example shows that doing so can make administration unnecessarily harder. The real reverse DNS for dotat.at uses this more conservative setup: 130.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa.CNAME 130.128-28.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa. 130.128-28.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa. PTR dotat.at. Tony. -- f.a.n.finchd...@dotat.atf...@demon.nete pluribus unix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
Tony Finch wrote: > > Doug wrote: > >Louis A. Mamakos wrote: > >>[lost attribution] > >>> > >>> That IS a violation of the standard, since A records are not valid > >>> for hosts in in-addr.arpa. > >> > >> And next I suppose you'll tell me that PTR records are not valid > >> outsize of the IN-ADDR.ARPA portion of the DNS namespace? > > > > Given how PTR RR's are defined, I'd have to say, ayyup. > > I suggest you read RFC 2317 I'd suggest you read what I actually wrote. :) Nothing in either RFC that you quoted, or any of your examples contradicted my actual point, which was that PTR records are not valid outside of in-addr.arpa name space. If you believe they are, give valid working examples and explain their meaning, since there currently is not a definition for their use outside of in-addr.arpa. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
Doug wrote: > >Nothing in either RFC that you quoted, or any of your examples >contradicted my actual point, which was that PTR records are not >valid outside of in-addr.arpa name space. AFAICT the second example I gave has a valid PTR record outside in-addr.arpa. To give you a more concrete example I've reconfigured the reverse DNS for dotat.at to change some time after midnight UTC to use the RR "rev.dotat.at. PTR dotat.at." >If you believe they are, give valid working examples and explain >their meaning, since there currently is not a definition for their >use outside of in-addr.arpa. It means that rev.dotat.at points to dotat.at. When the 134.240.212.in-addr.arpa zone updates itself rev.dotat.at will be the canonical name for 130.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa so reverse lookups will work as expected. You might also want to look at RFC 1886 which defines the ip6.int domain, which like in-addr.arpa is full of PTR RRs. Tony. -- f.a.n.finchd...@dotat.atf...@demon.nete pluribus unix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
RFC 1035 isn't the only RFC under this aspect. While in RFC 1035 the host specification is a "should", in other RFC's it's a "must" They are: RFC 1123 Requirements for Internet Hosts -- Application and Support which has a pointer to RFC 952DOD INTERNET HOST TABLE SPECIFICATION So, underscores in Hostnames aren't allowed. They are not forbidden in the DNS specification (you can in fact use underscores in different context in DNS), but because of the RFC's above. You should also take a look at RFC 2181 Clarifications to the DNS Specification specifically Section 11 Daniel Evren Yurtesen schrieb: > > Well, I am the person who has this problem. > The RFCs does not explicitly say that we should not use underscore > character > as far as I understood. But it suggests which characters we should use. [...] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re:(2) hey
Well, I am the person who has this problem. The RFCs does not explicitly say that we should not use underscore character as far as I understood. But it suggests which characters we should use. Also in RFC1033 it says (well the status of this one is UNKNOWN though) - The domain system allows a label to contain any 8-bit character. Although the domain system has no restrictions, other protocols such as SMTP do have name restrictions. Because of other protocol restrictions, only the following characters are recommended for use in a host name (besides the dot separator): "A-Z", "a-z", "0-9", dash and underscore - So Solaris does the right thing by understanding underscore I guess. Since it is not forbidden to use it in hostnames. http://www.crynwr.com/crynwr/rfc1035/rfc1035.html#2.3.1. - For example, when naming a mail domain, the user should satisfy both the rules of this memo and those in RFC-822. When creating a new host name, the old rules for HOSTS.TXT should be followed. This avoids problems when old software is converted to use domain names. The following syntax will result in fewer problems with many applications that use domain names (e.g., mail, TELNET). ::= | " " ::= | "." ::= [ [ ] ] ::= | ::= | "-" ::= | ::= any one of the 52 alphabetic characters A through Z in upper case and a through z in lower case ::= any one of the ten digits 0 through 9 - BTW. I could not really understand this explanation in RFC1035. This is very cryptic for me :( Thanks for the help Evren Yurtesen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Michael Mannsberger wrote: > > > ping www.atayatirim.com.tr works under Sun but not in FreeBSD - why? > > FreeBSD doesn't like "_" in a URL > > Uhm, that's a hostname, but yes, FreeBSD doesn't like it. Windows is > okay with it, however. > > http://www.crynwr.com/crynwr/rfc1035/rfc1035.html#2.3.1. > However explains why this hostname is not allowed. FreeBSD is not violating > RFC. > > -- > - bill fumerola - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - > - ph:(800) 252-2421 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - > > hawk% ping wam_notes.internal.chc-chimes.com > ping: cannot resolve wam_notes.internal.chc-chimes.com: Unknown server error > hawk% dig wam_notes.internal.chc-chimes.com |grep notes > ; <<>> DiG 8.1 <<>> wam_notes.internal.chc-chimes.com > ;; wam_notes.internal.chc-chimes.com, type = A, class = IN > wam_notes.internal.chc-chimes.com. 1D IN CNAME notes.internal.chc-chimes.com. > notes.internal.chc-chimes.com. 1D IN A 172.16.81.245 > > It should be noted that the dns server that my workstation queried is running > FreeBSD and has no trouble _serving_ hostnames with an underscore. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re:(2) hey
> Well, I am the person who has this problem. > The RFCs does not explicitly say that we should not use underscore > character > as far as I understood. But it suggests which characters we should use. > RFC 952 1. A "name" (Net, Host, Gateway, or Domain name) is a text string up to 24 characters drawn from the alphabet (A-Z), digits (0-9), minus sign (-), and period (.). Note that periods are only allowed when they serve to delimit components of "domain style names". RFC 1101 The current syntax for network names, as defined by [RFC 952] is an alphanumeric string of up to 24 characters, which begins with an alpha, and may include "." and "-" except as first and last characters. This is the format which was also used for host names before the DNS. Upward compatibility with existing names might be a goal of any new scheme. The above two documents limit the characters that may be used a a _ is not one of them. FreeBSD behaves correctly in this manner. RFC 1033 is only a informational RFC and should not be treated as a standard. glenn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
> > Well, I am the person who has this problem. > > The RFCs does not explicitly say that we should not use underscore > > character > > as far as I understood. But it suggests which characters we should use. > > > RFC 952 > >1. A "name" (Net, Host, Gateway, or Domain name) is a text string up >to 24 characters drawn from the alphabet (A-Z), digits (0-9), minus >sign (-), and period (.). Note that periods are only allowed when >they serve to delimit components of "domain style names". > > RFC 1101 > >The current syntax for network names, as defined by [RFC 952] is an >alphanumeric string of up to 24 characters, which begins with an >alpha, and may include "." and "-" except as first and last >characters. This is the format which was also used for host names >before the DNS. Upward compatibility with existing names might be a >goal of any new scheme. > > The above two documents limit the characters that may be used a a _ is not > one of them. FreeBSD behaves correctly in this manner. But the DNS is used to hold all sorts of information. For example, how do you reconcile domain names like: 42.10.202.144.IN-ADDR.ARPA in the DNS? It violates the "starts with alpha" "requirement" in 952 and 1101 that you quotes, yet we use these things all the time. In fact, you can send email to that domain name because it has an A record associated with it, as well as a PTR record. I've always thought that the code that barfs on these names in gethostbyname() really violates the "be conservative in what you send, and liberal in what you receive" thought that made the Internet work. Yeah, yeah, BIND does it, but that's no excuse, either. What do I know; I was just the first chair of the domain name working group in the IETF so many years ago before it got fashionable. grumble, louie To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re:(2) hey
On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Evren Yurtesen wrote: > Well, I am the person who has this problem. > The RFCs does not explicitly say that we should not use underscore > character > as far as I understood. This is a common misunderstanding. The only valid characters in hostnames to be used on the global internet are letters, numbers and the dash character, "-". Underscores are not valid, at all, period. I realize that the RFC's don't seem to be clear on this point, however you can rest assured that such is the case. Good luck, Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
> But the DNS is used to hold all sorts of information. For example, how do > you reconcile domain names like: > > 42.10.202.144.IN-ADDR.ARPA > > in the DNS? It violates the "starts with alpha" "requirement" in 952 and 1101 > that you quotes, yet we use these things all the time. In fact, you can > send email to that domain name because it has an A record associated with > it, as well as a PTR record. How do I reconcile it? Well I must admit that I have not seen that one before. However just because there is a domain out there that is incorrect and will resolve does not mean that we should allow others. The way I reconcile this is that we need a patch for the resolver and I will be sure to mail one to the Internet Software Consortium. There are a number of cases where there are issues with implimentations of protocols, TCP, RMON where they are fixed one problem at a time. > I've always thought that the code that barfs on these names in gethostbyname() > really violates the "be conservative in what you send, and liberal in > what you receive" thought that made the Internet work. Yeah, yeah, BIND > does it, but that's no excuse, either. I sort of agree with you here, however allowing this particular situation to occur has just increased the number of non standard domain names. > What do I know; I was just the first chair of the domain name working group > in the IETF so many years ago before it got fashionable. In that case you will know a hell of a lot more than me and I honestly do not want to contradict you. I was 11 when 952 was written and I do not claim to know the reasons or motivations behind the decisions that resulted in that draft. However the Internet is a great deal different, there are a lot more people with a great deal less knowledge and understanding maintaining things like DNS servers etc. I feel that the live and let live attitude that you expouse worked when people like yourself, Jon Pollard etc were the people controling things. That is just no longer the case. glenn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
Today Louis A. Mamakos wrote: > > RFC 952 > > > >1. A "name" (Net, Host, Gateway, or Domain name) is a text string up > >to 24 characters drawn from the alphabet (A-Z), digits (0-9), minus > >sign (-), and period (.). Note that periods are only allowed when > >they serve to delimit components of "domain style names". > > > > RFC 1101 > > > >The current syntax for network names, as defined by [RFC 952] is an > >alphanumeric string of up to 24 characters, which begins with an > >alpha, and may include "." and "-" except as first and last > >characters. This is the format which was also used for host names > >before the DNS. Upward compatibility with existing names might be a > >goal of any new scheme. > > > > The above two documents limit the characters that may be used a a _ is not > > one of them. FreeBSD behaves correctly in this manner. > > But the DNS is used to hold all sorts of information. For example, how do > you reconcile domain names like: > > 42.10.202.144.IN-ADDR.ARPA > > in the DNS? It violates the "starts with alpha" "requirement" in 952 and 1101 > that you quotes, yet we use these things all the time. In fact, you can Read RFC 1123, it makes that perfectly valid. 2.1 Host Names and Numbers The syntax of a legal Internet host name was specified in RFC-952 [DNS:4]. One aspect of host name syntax is hereby changed: the restriction on the first character is relaxed to allow either a letter or a digit. Host software MUST support this more liberal syntax. -- Jack O'NeillSystems Administrator / Systems Analyst [EMAIL PROTECTED] Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -- To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Louis A. Mamakos wrote: > But the DNS is used to hold all sorts of information. For example, how do > you reconcile domain names like: > > 42.10.202.144.IN-ADDR.ARPA > > in the DNS? It violates the "starts with alpha" "requirement" in 952 and 1101 E.. even if that argument weren't silly on its face, the 'starts/ends with alpha' requirement has been relaxed for some time now. First for legacy domains like 3com.com, and next for newer ones like 411.com. The only rule that is currently being enforced is that no label can begin or end with a dash. > that you quotes, yet we use these things all the time. In fact, you can > send email to that domain name because it has an A record associated with > it, as well as a PTR record. That IS a violation of the standard, since A records are not valid for hosts in in-addr.arpa. > What do I know; I was just the first chair of the domain name working group > in the IETF so many years ago before it got fashionable. Well, things change. :) Doug -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
> How do I reconcile it? Well I must admit that I have not seen that one > before. However just because there is a domain out there that is incorrect > and will resolve does not mean that we should allow others. The way I > reconcile this is that we need a patch for the resolver and I will be sure > to mail one to the Internet Software Consortium. There are a number of > cases where there are issues with implimentations of protocols, TCP, RMON > where they are fixed one problem at a time. > Well I just got done again. Apparently the alphanumeric starting poing is allowed. Either way I feel my point in valid. glenn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
> > That IS a violation of the standard, since A records > are not valid for hosts in in-addr.arpa. > And next I suppose you'll tell me that PTR records are not valid outsize of the IN-ADDR.ARPA portion of the DNS namespace? What people really miss is that the DNS is a distributed database with delegation, used for all sorts of purposes. Some of them are widely known and almost universal (e.g., "look up and address for this host"). Some parts of the namespace are used as indicies for special purposes (e.g., translate a 4 octet IP address into a DNS name). The DNS can store names where the values used for each octet of a label in a DNS name can have any value at all between 0 and 255, including " ", ".", and other rude things. The general purpose mechansim can be (ab)sed for all sorts of purposes not originally envisioned (like Hesiod - you want to exclude "_" from user names?) While gethostbyname() and it's ilk are used for one limited, scoped purpose is no reason to break previously working configurations. That the ISC got a hair up their ass to break all those previously working names is just a shame. Depending on my application, I might just want to have some part of the DNS namespace return object that look like IP addresses for domain names which are not "hosts." The current implemention of bind makes that impossible unless I want to resort to using the raw resolver routines, which is just busy-work. This is just an example of "smart-ass" software that believes it knows better than the user does. louie To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
> So Solaris does the right thing by understanding underscore I guess. > Since it is not forbidden to use it in hostnames. It does not do the right thing and it is indeed forbidden. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
On Thu, 12 Aug 1999, Louis A. Mamakos wrote: > > > > That IS a violation of the standard, since A records > > are not valid for hosts in in-addr.arpa. > > > > And next I suppose you'll tell me that PTR records are not valid > outsize of the IN-ADDR.ARPA portion of the DNS namespace? Given how PTR RR's are defined, I'd have to say, ayyup. > What people really miss is that the DNS is a distributed database > with delegation, used for all sorts of purposes. You get no argument from me there. However there is a difference between defining "louie's_map_zone." and using that for whatever you want to use it for, and trying to hammer your stuff into areas that already have definitions. The tools exist to extend the protocol into other areas as you see fit, and I say more power to you. But please don't try and drum up sympathy for that "DNS should be all things to all people" line, it didn't work well back then and doesn't work at all now. It's all we can do nowadays to get people to configure "normal" things properly. AFAIC, the software could stand to be smarter than it is already because they keep making better idiots. Doug -- On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Louis A. Mamakos" writes: : It violates the "starts with alpha" "requirement" in 952 and 1101 : that you quotes, yet we use these things all the time. That requirement has been relaxed. See RFC 1123. Bottom line is that _ is an illegal character in a hostname, and FreeBSD is behaving correctly. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
In message <25455.934497542@localhost> "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: : > So Solaris does the right thing by understanding underscore I guess. : > Since it is not forbidden to use it in hostnames. : : It does not do the right thing and it is indeed forbidden. :) Also, all modern versions of bind specifically prohibit all characters that are not allowed to make writing buffer overflow easter eggs much harder. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Louis A. Mamakos" writes: : The DNS can store names where the values used for each octet of a : label in a DNS name can have any value at all between 0 and 255, : including " ", ".", and other rude things. The general purpose : mechansim can be (ab)sed for all sorts of purposes not originally : envisioned (like Hesiod - you want to exclude "_" from user names?) This is true. However, for hostnames, such uses are illegal. That's what we're talking about here. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
Doug <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Louis A. Mamakos wrote: >>[lost attribution] >>> >>> That IS a violation of the standard, since A records are not valid >>> for hosts in in-addr.arpa. >> >> And next I suppose you'll tell me that PTR records are not valid >> outsize of the IN-ADDR.ARPA portion of the DNS namespace? > > Given how PTR RR's are defined, I'd have to say, ayyup. I suggest you read RFC 2317 (classless reverse DNS). Among its recommendations are setups like: 130.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa.CNAME 130.128/28.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa. 130.128/28.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa. PTR dotat.at. and: 130.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa. CNAME 130.rev.dotat.at. 130.rev.dotat.at PTR dotat.at. RFC 2181 allows the / in the CNAME RRs. There's no reason for restricting PTR RRs to a particular part of the name space, and indeed this example shows that doing so can make administration unnecessarily harder. The real reverse DNS for dotat.at uses this more conservative setup: 130.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa.CNAME 130.128-28.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa. 130.128-28.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa. PTR dotat.at. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]e pluribus unix To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
Tony Finch wrote: > > Doug <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Louis A. Mamakos wrote: > >>[lost attribution] > >>> > >>> That IS a violation of the standard, since A records are not valid > >>> for hosts in in-addr.arpa. > >> > >> And next I suppose you'll tell me that PTR records are not valid > >> outsize of the IN-ADDR.ARPA portion of the DNS namespace? > > > > Given how PTR RR's are defined, I'd have to say, ayyup. > > I suggest you read RFC 2317 I'd suggest you read what I actually wrote. :) Nothing in either RFC that you quoted, or any of your examples contradicted my actual point, which was that PTR records are not valid outside of in-addr.arpa name space. If you believe they are, give valid working examples and explain their meaning, since there currently is not a definition for their use outside of in-addr.arpa. Doug To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
Doug <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Nothing in either RFC that you quoted, or any of your examples >contradicted my actual point, which was that PTR records are not >valid outside of in-addr.arpa name space. AFAICT the second example I gave has a valid PTR record outside in-addr.arpa. To give you a more concrete example I've reconfigured the reverse DNS for dotat.at to change some time after midnight UTC to use the RR "rev.dotat.at. PTR dotat.at." >If you believe they are, give valid working examples and explain >their meaning, since there currently is not a definition for their >use outside of in-addr.arpa. It means that rev.dotat.at points to dotat.at. When the 134.240.212.in-addr.arpa zone updates itself rev.dotat.at will be the canonical name for 130.134.240.212.in-addr.arpa so reverse lookups will work as expected. You might also want to look at RFC 1886 which defines the ip6.int domain, which like in-addr.arpa is full of PTR RRs. Tony. -- f.a.n.finch[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]e pluribus unix To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: (2) hey
RFC 1035 isn't the only RFC under this aspect. While in RFC 1035 the host specification is a "should", in other RFC's it's a "must" They are: RFC 1123 Requirements for Internet Hosts -- Application and Support which has a pointer to RFC 952DOD INTERNET HOST TABLE SPECIFICATION So, underscores in Hostnames aren't allowed. They are not forbidden in the DNS specification (you can in fact use underscores in different context in DNS), but because of the RFC's above. You should also take a look at RFC 2181 Clarifications to the DNS Specification specifically Section 11 Daniel Evren Yurtesen schrieb: > > Well, I am the person who has this problem. > The RFCs does not explicitly say that we should not use underscore > character > as far as I understood. But it suggests which characters we should use. [...] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
