Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:

> Maybe companies who support MS or other proprietary software
> can't as they don't have the source.  But support companies that 
> support open source can very easily fix problems -- they have the 
> source and the license to use it

Unfortunately, their fix makes the software non-standard.  You need to
be able to roll fixes into the official release.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Anthony Atkielski]

Loren M. Lang writes:

> Whenever this happens I can always ssh in and kill X from another
> machine if it's just X hanging and not the system.

Hmm ... I don't know if I ever tried that.

> Now X can still kill the whole machine since it's directly
> accessing the hardware, but usually the system is still
> running fine.

The words "directly accessing the hardware" send a chill down my spine.
I already have to suffer with the instability and insecurity of Windows
caused by precisely that in the GUI; I certainly don't want to make the
same sacrifice on FreeBSD (or any other OS) just to see pretty pictures
on the screen, when the machine is not a desktop.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:

> Or if you are a BSD/UNIX/Linux admin.  It is a lot easier to ssh and do
> all the other things you want with your unix-like servers from Mac OS X
> than from Windows.

Why?  I use SecureCRT and SecureFX for FTP, and both work beautifully.

I've never found a solution for running an X Server on Windows, but
since I'm unwilling to run X on my production FreeBSD server, it hasn't
been too much of an issue.  It will be if I decide to set up another
machine with X.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Anthony Atkielski]

Loren M. Lang writes:

> That's not true in my expeirence, I still see the blue screen
> occassionally on both WinNT 4.0 and 2K systems.

Then you have bad device drivers, or you are running software with OS
privileges that contains bugs.

> Most of the time though the 2K machine just reboots without warning.

Look for common characteristics of the situations in which you observe a
reboot (especially particular programs running, or particular hardware
devices in use).

> Also, my brother is constantly telling my how he fixed his WinXP
> machine by rebooting it. That may not be a blue screen, but it's still
> not good.

It's a matter of user education; it has nothing to do with the OS.  I
haven't used systmatic rebooting to fix problems since the 16-bit
Windows 3.x (the old Windows 9x family of operating systems could get
stuck that way, but I went directly to NT myself and never bothered to
waste my time with Windows 95).

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not... A request to the moderators...

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chris writes:

> I respectfully ask the moderator of the list to kill these threads.
> People keep feeding this animal, and the animal remains.

By the way, which thread are you replying to again?

Threads live when people participate in them.  It takes at least two
people to maintain a thread.  There are many people posting to this
thread, so it must be fairly interesting to list participants, even if
it is not interesting to you.

Personally, I reply to threads, I don't start them.  If nobody else
posts on the topic, it dies.  I don't resurrect threads because I assume
that if nobody else replies to a thread, it must no longer be of
interest.  And as for threads that don't interest me, I simply ignore
them; I don't expect the rest of the list to stop posting to them for my
benefit.  Complaining about their off-topic character just adds to their
length, or creates additional off-topic threads filled with complaint.

-- 
Anthony


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about cvsup

[jellf nainggolan]

anyone can help me how to using cvsup
and please step by step
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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Anthony Atkielski]

Thomas Foster writes:

> Sometimes Mac is a better solution on the desktop, especially when it comes
> to Multimedia: Video/Audio/Graphics applications.

Mac used to have a very clear lead in this respect; today that lead has
shrunk enormously.  If that's all one does with the machine, the Mac is
probably still a better choice; but if the machine must serve other
purposes as well (accounting, and so on, as a small-business or home
machine might), Windows again has the advantage.

The Mac has a reputation as a computer for people who profess not to
like computers, especially artists.  Ever notice that just about
everyone in the movies is using a Mac instead of a PC?

-- 
Anthony


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Re: ping question

[Loren M. Lang]

On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 08:50:32AM -0800, ann kok wrote:
> Hi all
> 
> I ping from redhat to cisco router and freebsd router
> but I don't understand ttl (time to live)
> 
> Cisco router has ttl=251 and freebsd router has 58
> Does it set by the router itself?
> Can I change it in freebsd?

FreeBSD's default ttl, I believe, is 64, Cisco's is probably 255.  As
long as the number of hops neccessary to get to a certain computer is
never more than 64, there's nothing wrong with it.  The highest I've
seen is about 30 and the Internet is going to have to grow a bit, I
think, before it's an issue.

> 
> Thank you
> 
> 64 bytes from 212.223.x.193: icmp_seq=1151 ttl=251
> time=100 ms
> 64 bytes from 212.223.x.193: icmp_seq=1152 ttl=251
> time=103 ms
> 64 bytes from 212.223.x.193: icmp_seq=1153 ttl=251
> time=104 ms
> 64 bytes from 212.223.x.193: icmp_seq=1154 ttl=251
> time=106 ms
> 
> 64 bytes from 212.x.254.4: icmp_seq=1182 ttl=58
> time=105 ms
> 64 bytes from 212.x.254.4: icmp_seq=1183 ttl=58
> time=105 ms
> 64 bytes from 212.x.254.4: icmp_seq=1184 ttl=58
> time=104 ms
> 64 bytes from 212.x.254.4: icmp_seq=1185 ttl=58
> time=108 ms
> 
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-- 
I sense much NT in you.
NT leads to Bluescreen.
Bluescreen leads to downtime.
Downtime leads to suffering.
NT is the path to the darkside.
Powerful Unix is.

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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Dave Horsfall]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Loren M. Lang wrote:

> What do you do with ham radio on freebsd?  I haven't looked into it
> much, but it seems that there isn't nearly as many programs/device
> drivers for  freebsd as linux has.  I like how debian actually has a ham
> radio section for it.  I'd like to try out some of the digital radio
> stuff like AX.25

Lots of stuff - satellite tracking, APRS, etc.  There's a mailing
list - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - devoted to this.  They're trying to
get a separate ports area, instead of just "comms".

-- Dave (vk2kfu)
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Re: Concealing short disconnects

[Andrew P.]

Dan Nelson wrote:
In the last episode (Feb 12), Andrew P. said:
Dan Nelson wrote:
In the last episode (Feb 12), Andrew P. said:
I have a few machines behind my FreeBSD box. The box connects to
ISP via ppp (PPPoE protocol). It's all working very nicely, but the
ISP is a pain - it disconnects every 24 hours. I can reconnect in
just a moment - so the diconnect is usually less than a second
long, but many applications, like ICQ/MSN and games "feel" the
disconnect. The matter is that these applications can handle fairly
large packet loss (e.g. Counter-Strike can cope with at least
15-second long 100% packet loss), but AFAIK it's in the nature of
the TCP/UDP that a disconnect is a disconnect.
As I know that FreeBSD is full of magic, is there any way to
conceal these reconnects as short moments of 100% packet loss? I am
ashamed to know very little about protocols' technicalities, but
I'll look into any sources you advise.
Check to see if your IP number changes when you reconnect.  If it
does, there's nothing you really can do; the remote system you were
talking to knew you only by your old IP, and those packets coming to
them from this other IP are unrelated.
It changes only once in about a week. Let's say it doesn't change
at all. What then?

I'm still suspicious :)  The two most common causes for connection
resets are IP address changes and NAT resets.  /usr/sbin/ppp keeps its
NAT table across disconnects as long as the process itself stays
running, so I don't think that's the cause.  If you have root access to
a remote system, try running tcpdump on it and your local machine while
running something like top over ssh, and watch what happens when your
connection drops and reconnects.
No, there's really nothing to be suspicious about :) The IP doesn't
change (well, in the process of IPCP it virtually does, first to
10.0.0.1/0 and then back to the assigned one - but that doesn't
count, does it), the ppp process stays, but TCP/UDP streams are
somehow interrupted. Don't worry anyway. Disconnects happen in
5-6 in the morning, when all the users are sleeping and the only
one sleepless surfer is unlucky me, trying to seamlessly upgrade
self-made internet connection sharing box from 4.10 to 5.3.
BTW, if only anyone happens to know: I asked list before, but got
no reply. When ISP actually assigns new IP address, I occasionally
get double IPs on the tun0 interface (the old one and the new one
simultaneously). Everything's working fine, but the dyndns updater
can't recognize the IP change. Is there a way to fix this glitch/
feature? I've really manned and googled for it - without succes.
Best wishes,
Andrew P.
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usb webcam recommendation

[Paulo Roberto]

Hello,

Does anybody recommend any usb webcam that is freebsd supported, and
still being sold?

Googling (and reading the hardware notes for 5.3) I only found
information regarding old (off the shelf) models.

thanks,

Paulo



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Belkin wireless card issue

[InsaneToucan]

Hey,

I just installed FreeBSD and everything works great except for my
networking. I have a computer with an integrated network card from
Intel, which was picked up fine.

However, my other card, a PCI Belkin Wireless F5D7000 is not being
recognized. This is a problem because the integrated NIC has no
connection, I'm on a wireless network. Any clue on how to make FreeBSD
pickup this interface correctly? Right now it's showing it as "unknown
network device"

Thanks
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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 6:56 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Bart Silverstrim writes:
Every $ spent on a product is another $ supporting it.
Incidentally true, but not always the objective.
Rarely.
Frequently.  Many software choices and upgrade decisions today are
driven primarily or solely by a need to become or remain compatible 
with
other business partners.

Business...some people find alternatives that can read more than one
format.
Sometimes there are no alternatives.  Sometimes there is no advantage 
in
looking for alternatives, since the usual choice is also the best
choice.
I can't think of any time that MS is the best choice, except in perhaps 
some vertical market cases.  It is often the most convenient choice.  
Like the list of software you listed.  Most of that can be replaced 
with other SW -- especially if you switch to Mac OS X, though probably 
also to a BSD or Linux solution.

The fact is you find it more convenient not too, even though you could, 
and would probably be happier without it.

Chad
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Re: Power-down problem on 5.3

[stheg olloydson]

it was said:

>I have just installed fbsd 5.3 release on a Medion P4 notebook. 
>Everything seems to work OK, except the power down function.
>
>If I run "shutdown -p now" the system reboots instead of shutting
down.



>Best regards,
>
>Mikkel C. Simonsen

Hello,

I just tested it on a 5.3_p5 box and it worked. Do you have ACPI
enabled? Maybe a bug was fixed between _RELEASE and _p5? If you have
ACPI enabled, try cvsupping. (Don't forget to read src/UPDATING if you
do.)

HTH,

stheg



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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 6:53 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Paul Mather writes:
I hate to burst your bubble, but neither is any other OS vendor
ultimately accountable for its code.
Actually it is.  That's why companies tend to prefer support from
vendors; vendors have a vested interest in making good on support
requests, because they can lose a lot more than just a support contract
if they fail to do so.
By that, I mean you can file "problem reports" or "trouble tickets" or
whatever the phrase du jour is, but the company is ultimately under no
obligation to fix them.
Vendors can fix problems; third-party support companies cannot.
?  Maybe companies who support MS or other proprietary software 
can't as they don't have the source.  But support companies that 
support open source can very easily fix problems -- they have the 
source and the license to use it

Chad
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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Loren M. Lang]

On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 04:00:46PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Ramiro Aceves writes:
> 
> > Yes, but some OSes are famous for their "blue screens"
> 
> None that I'm aware of.  Blue screens are more of a popular myth
> invented by people who hate Microsoft than a reality.  I saw occasional
> BSODs long ago when there were driver problems or hardware problems on
> servers, but I haven't seen a blue screen in years now.
> 
> > One day FreeBSD 5.3 completely crashed when doing something in X-window
> > System on an old pentium 75MHz.
> 
> I've had FreeBSD hang while trying to use X servers, but I never could
> establish whether the OS itself had frozen or whether it was just the
> interface.  It happened often enough that it was one of the reasons why
> I abandoned any attempt to use a GUI.

Whenever this happens I can always ssh in and kill X from another
machine if it's just X hanging and not the system.  Now X can still kill
the whole machine since it's directly accessing the hardware, but
usually the system is still running fine.

>

> -- 
> Anthony
> 
> 
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-- 
I sense much NT in you.
NT leads to Bluescreen.
Bluescreen leads to downtime.
Downtime leads to suffering.
NT is the path to the darkside.
Powerful Unix is.

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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 7:02 PM, Thomas Foster wrote:

My solution is to remove emotion from the equation and simply install
the best software for the job.  On the desktop, that's Windows.
--
Anthony
Sometimes Mac is a better solution on the desktop, especially when it 
comes to Multimedia: Video/Audio/Graphics applications.  I guess that 
all depends on the environment...

Or if you are a BSD/UNIX/Linux admin.  It is a lot easier to ssh and do 
all the other things you want with your unix-like servers from Mac OS X 
than from Windows.

Chad
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Power-down problem on 5.3

[Mikkel C. Simonsen]

I have just installed fbsd 5.3 release on a Medion P4 notebook. 
Everything seems to work OK, except the power down function.

If I run "shutdown -p now" the system reboots instead of shutting down.
Before installing 5.3 I tested 4.11 (with ACPI enabled), and on 4.11 
shutdown -p worked. Is there some setting I can change on 5.3 to make it 
work there also?

Best regards,
Mikkel C. Simonsen
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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Loren M. Lang]

On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 04:00:46PM +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> Ramiro Aceves writes:
> 
> > Yes, but some OSes are famous for their "blue screens"
> 
> None that I'm aware of.  Blue screens are more of a popular myth
> invented by people who hate Microsoft than a reality.  I saw occasional
> BSODs long ago when there were driver problems or hardware problems on
> servers, but I haven't seen a blue screen in years now.

That's not true in my expeirence, I still see the blue screen
occassionally on both WinNT 4.0 and 2K systems.  Most of the time though
the 2K machine just reboots without warning.  Also, my brother is
constantly telling my how he fixed his WinXP machine by rebooting it.
That may not be a blue screen, but it's still not good.


-- 
I sense much NT in you.
NT leads to Bluescreen.
Bluescreen leads to downtime.
Downtime leads to suffering.
NT is the path to the darkside.
Powerful Unix is.

Public Key: ftp://ftp.tallye.com/pub/lorenl_pubkey.asc
Fingerprint: B3B9 D669 69C9 09EC 1BCD  835A FAF3 7A46 E4A3 280C
 
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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Loren M. Lang]

On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 02:15:16PM +0100, Ramiro Aceves wrote:
> Hello Anthony
> 
> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> >Ramiro Aceves writes:
> >
> >

> 
> I use my computer for my engineering calculations, surfing the net and 
> e-mailing,  and for fun and hobbies such as astronomy and amateur radio. 
> Both FreeBSD and Debian GNU/Linux seem to satisfy my requirements. 
> Indeed they share most of what FreeBSD call "third party apps".

What do you do with ham radio on freebsd?  I haven't looked into it
much, but it seems that there isn't nearly as many programs/device
drivers for  freebsd as linux has.  I like how debian actually has a ham
radio section for it.  I'd like to try out some of the digital radio
stuff like AX.25

> 
> If an OS does not have the "third party apps", it is not useful for most 
> of us.
> 
> 
> Ramiro.
> 
> 
> 
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-- 
I sense much NT in you.
NT leads to Bluescreen.
Bluescreen leads to downtime.
Downtime leads to suffering.
NT is the path to the darkside.
Powerful Unix is.

Public Key: ftp://ftp.tallye.com/pub/lorenl_pubkey.asc
Fingerprint: B3B9 D669 69C9 09EC 1BCD  835A FAF3 7A46 E4A3 280C
 
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RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Garance A Drosehn]

At 2:06 AM -0800 2/12/05, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
For the last time, it is not the contest that I and others are
objecting to.
I am glad to hear that this message was the last time you
mention it.  Thanks.
--
Garance Alistair Drosehn =  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Systems Programmer   or   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy, NY;  USA
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Re: Setting up own domain and mailserver

[stheg olloydson]

it was said:

>1. I have adelphia cable internet.  I would like to get a dyndns or
>no-ip.com account to have a static IP for my new godaddy domain.

Having such accounts doesn't give you a static IP. A static IP is one
that never changes. Only your ISP (Adelphia, in your case) can supply
that.

>Simple enough.  However, I would like to also do my own DNS to learn
>more about it.   Will I be able to do this if I set my nameserver on
>godaddy to my box's dyndns address?  And from there can I set up A
>records, MX Records, etc and all that good stuff?

No. You don't have a static IP, so this won't work. That's what
companies like dyndns and no-ip.com are for. Read how their services
work for an more detailed explanation.

>2.  What about reverse DNS?  Could I possibly do that on my box?

No. The only way to do reverse DNS is to have the IP(s) delegated to
you by your ISP. Unless you get a large block of IP addresses assigned
to you, this is unlikely to happen. (I have 16 addresses and my ISP
said, "No!" when I asked. I knew they would, but one hopes)

>3. I would also like to run my own mailserver for that domain (again
>to learn).  Would I be able to do this and send receive email from/to
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]  I know most ISPs block port 25 and no-ip.com
>has a pay service called mail reflector that can get around this.  Is
>this necessary?  Why couldn't I just set up sendmail to use a port
>other than 25 like 8080?

No. You'll have to use the reflector service. Mailservers try to
connect to port 25 because that's the port the RFC says to use. Setting
your server to 8080 will make it useless. 

>Thanks.  Again, this stuff just confuses the heck out of me.

You're wlecome. I suggest you read the book _DNS and BIND_ by Albitz
and Liu, published by O'Reilly. It's generally considered the
definitive work on this topic and will save you many hours of
frustration. After reading it you'll know why you can run web and mail
servers from a dynamic IP but not a name server.
One thing to consider, clearly you don't have a commercial account. If
I were you, I would check what Adelphia can do if they catch you
running servers from a residental account. I know somebody that got
caught by rr.com. They back billed him for a commercial account. It
totaled more than US$6000.00. Of course, that's not as bad as what
Buckeye Cable did to the users that uncapped their modems a couple
years ago.
http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2002Nov/gee20021122017460.htm

Regards,

stheg





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Re: Setting up own domain and mailserver

[RL]

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 13:24:36 +1030, Paul A. Hoadley
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 07:52:08PM -0500, RL wrote:
> 
> > 1. I have adelphia cable internet.  I would like to get a dyndns or
> > no-ip.com account to have a static IP for my new godaddy domain.
> 
> I assume both of those services are dynamic DNS providers, and I'll
> assume your cable provider gives you a dynamic IP address.  Dynamic
> DNS providers don't provide you with a static IP, but rather
> nameservice for your domain.  The provider will nominate some subset
> of their nameservers for you to register (with the registrar that sold
> you the domain name) as providing DNS for your new domain.  The idea
> is that whenever your IP address changes, you contact the dynamic DNS
> provider (in some provider-specific way---e.g., a web form, a local
> script) to update your A record.
> 
> > Simple enough.  However, I would like to also do my own DNS to learn
> > more about it.  Will I be able to do this if I set my nameserver on
> > godaddy to my box's dyndns address?
> 
> Almost certainly not, for two reasons.  You need a static IP address
> to lodge with your registrar.  (I guess it would be _possible_ to
> manually update the address with your registrar every time it changes,
> but quite impractical.)  Further, you need to provide at least two
> nameservers for your domain.  Again, it is _possible_ that you could
> personally provide one, and use a DNS provider as a secondary.
> 
> > 2.  What about reverse DNS?  Could I possibly do that on my box?
> 
> Not unless you solve all of the problems above, and then discuss the
> issue with your ISP---since they own the IP address, they run the
> corresponding part of the in-addr.arpa zone, and the specific PTR
> record you will require.
> 
> > 3. I would also like to run my own mailserver for that domain (again
> > to learn).  Would I be able to do this and send receive email
> > from/to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> This you'll be able to do.  You need to add an MX record to your zone
> file at the dynamic DNS provider.  You would want mail sent to the
> host named in the A record.
> 
> > I know most ISPs block port 25 and no-ip.com has a pay service
> > called mail reflector that can get around this.  Is this necessary?
> 
> If _your_ ISP blocks port 25, then you'll have to do _something_ to
> get around that, but I don't know if that particular service is the
> right solution.
> 
> > Why couldn't I just set up sendmail to use a port other than 25 like
> > 8080?
> 
> There's certainly nothing _intrinsically_ special about port 25.
> However, it's the port that everyone's agreed to send mail to.  If
> your sendmail was listening on port 8080, how would my sendmail know?
> 
> --
> Paul.
> 
> w  http://logicsquad.net/
> h  http://paul.hoadley.name/
> 
> 
> 


Yeah and crappy Adelphia doesn't offer static IPs without charging way
way too much.  At least I should be able to set up my own mail.
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Re: Setting up own domain and mailserver

[Paul A. Hoadley]

On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 07:52:08PM -0500, RL wrote:

> 1. I have adelphia cable internet.  I would like to get a dyndns or
> no-ip.com account to have a static IP for my new godaddy domain.

I assume both of those services are dynamic DNS providers, and I'll
assume your cable provider gives you a dynamic IP address.  Dynamic
DNS providers don't provide you with a static IP, but rather
nameservice for your domain.  The provider will nominate some subset
of their nameservers for you to register (with the registrar that sold
you the domain name) as providing DNS for your new domain.  The idea
is that whenever your IP address changes, you contact the dynamic DNS
provider (in some provider-specific way---e.g., a web form, a local
script) to update your A record.

> Simple enough.  However, I would like to also do my own DNS to learn
> more about it.  Will I be able to do this if I set my nameserver on
> godaddy to my box's dyndns address?

Almost certainly not, for two reasons.  You need a static IP address
to lodge with your registrar.  (I guess it would be _possible_ to
manually update the address with your registrar every time it changes,
but quite impractical.)  Further, you need to provide at least two
nameservers for your domain.  Again, it is _possible_ that you could
personally provide one, and use a DNS provider as a secondary.

> 2.  What about reverse DNS?  Could I possibly do that on my box?  

Not unless you solve all of the problems above, and then discuss the
issue with your ISP---since they own the IP address, they run the
corresponding part of the in-addr.arpa zone, and the specific PTR
record you will require.

> 3. I would also like to run my own mailserver for that domain (again
> to learn).  Would I be able to do this and send receive email
> from/to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

This you'll be able to do.  You need to add an MX record to your zone
file at the dynamic DNS provider.  You would want mail sent to the
host named in the A record.

> I know most ISPs block port 25 and no-ip.com has a pay service
> called mail reflector that can get around this.  Is this necessary?

If _your_ ISP blocks port 25, then you'll have to do _something_ to
get around that, but I don't know if that particular service is the
right solution.

> Why couldn't I just set up sendmail to use a port other than 25 like
> 8080?

There's certainly nothing _intrinsically_ special about port 25.
However, it's the port that everyone's agreed to send mail to.  If
your sendmail was listening on port 8080, how would my sendmail know?


-- 
Paul.

w  http://logicsquad.net/
h  http://paul.hoadley.name/


pgpR2UnYYJN77.pgp
Description: PGP signature

where can i find the subfont.ttf ?

[Gert Cuykens]

where can i find the subfont.ttf for mplayer ?
...
Please supply the text font file (~/.mplayer/subfont.ttf).
subtitle font: load_sub_face failed.
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Instead of freebsd.com, why not... A request to the moderators...

[Chris]

Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Bart Silverstrim writes:

Every $ spent on a product is another $ supporting it.

Incidentally true, but not always the objective.

Rarely.

Frequently.  Many software choices and upgrade decisions today are
driven primarily or solely by a need to become or remain compatible with
other business partners.

Business...some people find alternatives that can read more than one
format.

Sometimes there are no alternatives.  Sometimes there is no advantage in
looking for alternatives, since the usual choice is also the best
choice.
I respectfully ask the moderator of the list to kill these threads. 
People keep feeding this animal, and the animal remains.

It's apparent that many wish not to try to stick with the rules of the 
list. That being said, I pose the question again to the moderator - 
Please, kill these threads that have nothing to do with the list itself.

--
Best regards,
Chris
The big guys always win.
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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Thomas Foster]

My solution is to remove emotion from the equation and simply install
the best software for the job.  On the desktop, that's Windows.
--
Anthony
Sometimes Mac is a better solution on the desktop, especially when it comes 
to Multimedia: Video/Audio/Graphics applications.  I guess that all depends 
on the environment...

What amazes me is the subject line of this thread feeding every single 
person to put their two cents in.. including myself..

 

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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Anthony Atkielski]

Bart Silverstrim writes:

> Every $ spent on a product is another $ supporting it.

Incidentally true, but not always the objective.

> Rarely.

Frequently.  Many software choices and upgrade decisions today are
driven primarily or solely by a need to become or remain compatible with
other business partners.

> Business...some people find alternatives that can read more than one
> format.

Sometimes there are no alternatives.  Sometimes there is no advantage in
looking for alternatives, since the usual choice is also the best
choice.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Anthony Atkielski]

Paul Mather writes:

> I hate to burst your bubble, but neither is any other OS vendor
> ultimately accountable for its code.

Actually it is.  That's why companies tend to prefer support from
vendors; vendors have a vested interest in making good on support
requests, because they can lose a lot more than just a support contract
if they fail to do so.

> By that, I mean you can file "problem reports" or "trouble tickets" or
> whatever the phrase du jour is, but the company is ultimately under no
> obligation to fix them.

Vendors can fix problems; third-party support companies cannot.

> Also, if you read your license carefully, they don't guarantee the OS
> will work, nor are you protected against it destroying your data.

Many of those disclaimers have never been tested in court.  The notion
that all a software company need guarantee is a readable CD is very
extreme and untested; personally, I rather doubt that it would survive a
test.  It's hard to explain why a mere CD should cost $2500.

> MSCEs aren't "ultimately accountable" for Windows code, but they
> get hired all the time to fix things and build solutions, right?

They are hired to build, not to fix.  When things need to be fixed,
Microsoft Product Support gets the call.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Bart Silverstrim]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 4:20 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Bart Silverstrim writes:
Thank you for supporting vendor lock-in.
Recognizing, not supporting.
Every $ spent on a product is another $ supporting it.
Do don't even bother asking people who will suggest alternatives,
because it's not what you want to hear.
It's not a matter of what I want or don't want.  I don't have any
choice.  That's business.
Rarely.  You have no choice but to play Sims 2, eh?
Business...some people find alternatives that can read more than one 
format.

http://news.com.com/2008-1082_3-5065859.html?tag=lh
But like I said...you don't want to seek a change, so you wouldn't even 
want to look for an alternative.  Maybe not everyone out there looking 
for information is in your position, so I'd rather let them find this 
post with some hope of finding something that may suit their needs 
rather than your postings of "FreeBSD can't run , so don't even bother trying..."

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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Anthony Atkielski]

darren kirby writes:

> That is just not right. Perhaps for Redhat, SuSe et al this may be the case,
> but what do you expect? MS is their primary (only?) competition.

Whatever happened to UNIX _servers_?

> There are a million different reasons to run Linux, and a million
> different types of people that run it.

There are almost no reasons to run Linux instead of UNIX.

> Now you seem to be implying that the only difference between any two
> operating systems is what the GUI looks like.

No, although sometimes that is actually the case.

> So what's your solution, feed the Redmond beast?

My solution is to remove emotion from the equation and simply install
the best software for the job.  On the desktop, that's Windows.

> In my experience, the developers are the quiet ones that speak with their
> software.

There are all sorts of developers nowadays.  The days when they were all
quiet are long gone.

> Again, I am not trolling, and I am not a Linux zealot. I run FreeBSD,
> Linux, Solaris and any other free unix I can get my hand on. Why?
> Because I think they're cool. All of them. Including Linux.

I run operating systems to get work done.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Pleasedon'tchange Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg writes:

> A downloaded copy that still exists? ;)

How does the downloader know whether the copy is authorized or not?  How
does he prove it to the copyright holder and/or the licensee?

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don'tchange Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes:

> I think you know the answer to that question perfectly well.

There is no answer to that question.  That's part of the problem.

-- 
Anthony


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Setting up own domain and mailserver

[RL]

This has to be the most compilcated subject to me.  I just purchased a
new domain from godaddy.  I have a few questions I am not totally
clear about yet.

1. I have adelphia cable internet.  I would like to get a dyndns or
no-ip.com account to have a static IP for my new godaddy domain.
Simple enough.  However, I would like to also do my own DNS to learn
more about it.   Will I be able to do this if I set my nameserver on
godaddy to my box's dyndns address?  And from there can I set up A
records, MX Records, etc and all that good stuff?

2.  What about reverse DNS?  Could I possibly do that on my box?  

3. I would also like to run my own mailserver for that domain (again
to learn).  Would I be able to do this and send receive email from/to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  I know most ISPs block port 25 and no-ip.com
has a pay service called mail reflector that can get around this.  Is
this necessary?  Why couldn't I just set up sendmail to use a port
other than 25 like 8080?

Thanks.  Again, this stuff just confuses the heck out of me.
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Re: The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far....

[Kris Kennaway]

On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 04:16:21PM -0800, stheg olloydson wrote:

> P.S. My agreement with Mr. Sm?rgrav's argument should not be construed
> as agreeing with what many (me included) perceive as the sneaky way
> this issue has been handled. Based on the comments from the few
> commiters that made comments on this topic, a discussion took place
> among the commiters who then unilaterally made the decision.

Sorry, but that's how the FreeBSD project works and always has worked.
The FreeBSD Core team has always decided policy for the FreeBSD
project, and they can handle it any way they like, including making
unilateral decisions with consulting with the FreeBSD user base.  For
better or worse, FreeBSD is not a democracy of users - if you thought
otherwise then you were just mistaken.

Kris


pgpfXohgEMmJo.pgp
Description: PGP signature

The only worthwhile logo-related comments so far....

[stheg olloydson]

it was cried into the wilderness of rancor by Dag-Erling Smørgrav on
Fri Feb 11 09:30:50 2005:



>Likewise, Beastie is a mascot, not a logo.  In fact, it fails the
>primary and most important test of logoness: it is not exclusive to
>the FreeBSD project, but is shared by all BSD projects.  It also fails
>several other important tests of logoness: it is not under the FreeBSD
>project's direct control (our use of it is subject to the whim and
>mercy of Kirk McKusick); it is not a registered trademark; it is
>probably too diluted already to even be eligible to be registered as a
>trademark.



FINALLY! A worthwhile point of view - not obscured by emotion or
reproduction mumbo-jumbo! These are extremely important points, the
most important being Beastie doesn't belong to FreeBSD in any way,
shape, or form. This fact renders all other arguments moot. Forget all
of the "tradition", "offense", "professional", etc. time-wasting,
bandwidth consuming crapola that's been posted on this topic. I submit
that whether or not replacing Beastie as FBSD's main symbol is a good
idea is irrelevant. It is _necessary_.
A company needs to exclusively control an undiluted brand identifier.
Does anyone know of a business, other than the odd one person or family
run shop that doesn't have that? Would you trust a friend to hold the
rights to your logo (mascot, whatever)? Then why should FreeBSD?
Of course, the Project could buy the rights to Beastie, but then we run
into the "dilution" problem Mr. Smørgrav mentions. The image is
non-exclusive to FBSD. Even worse, I recall a post on questions@ by
someone reporting its use by a condom machine company in England and
Wales. Trying to enforce clear trademark use is hard enough. For the
Project to go after unauthorized use of Beastie would be expensive and
probably impossible.
So there it is. Mr. Smørgrav should be thanked for a business-based
reason for the change by making an irrefutable argument. Those that
STILL disagree should consult a lawyer that specializes in intellectual
property law.

Still going to use Beastie when I can,

Stheg

P.S. My agreement with Mr. Smørgrav's argument should not be construed
as agreeing with what many (me included) perceive as the sneaky way
this issue has been handled. Based on the comments from the few
commiters that made comments on this topic, a discussion took place
among the commiters who then unilaterally made the decision. As is
obvious, this was a very bad idea. I propose that in the future, such
discussions be held on a special-use list to avoid the appearance of
"you're neither important nor smart enough to discuss this" and to
prevent the list-pollution we are now seeing on [EMAIL PROTECTED]
P.P.S. Whether you agree with my position on this or not, will those
who comments on this topic have devolved into "I'm going to make my
point to that idiot yet" posts PLEASE TAKE IT OFF [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your
one-upmanship makes both sides look stupid and makes useful
information, like Mr. Smørgrav's points, difficult to find.

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Sound VIA VT8237 with numerical channel support ?

[Bachelier Vincent]

Hi,
Well I have a internal sound card based on chipset via

FreeBSD Audio Driver (newpcm)
Installed devices:
pcm0:  at io 0xc800 irq 22  (5p/1r/0v channels duplex
default)

Under linux, alsa drivers support for numerical output.
I see that under Freebsd with the kernel drivers, we only have
analogical one.

How can I setup the other ? Need opensound drivers ?

Well, thx for support

-- 
Vincent Bachelier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Societe : Solintech
Site pro: http://www.solintech.fr
Project : 
Ripperwww: http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/ripperwww

Citation (fortune):

Authors (and perhaps columnists) eventually rise to the top of whatever
depths they were once able to plumb.
-- Stanley Kaufman
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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Loren M. Lang]

On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 12:10:26PM +0100, Ramiro Aceves wrote:
> Anthony Atkielski wrote:
> [...]
> >
> >Still another reason why I prefer FreeBSD is that it places far less
> >emphasis on the desktop.  Linux has been moving more and more towards a
> >desktop because that's where the hype and money is perceived to be.
> [...]
> 
> Hello Anthony and FreeBSD fans
> 

> 
> I although have observed that in this list, some of you hate Linux.
> I have never seen insults to FreeBSD in the Debian e-mail lists. They 
> some times talk about some experiences about FreeBSD, but never say 
> things like " such crap FreeBSD .." as I have heard here many times.
> Be in peace my friends.

Actually, in my experience, I've heard more Linux people dissing on BSD
and other Unices and more BSD people accepting and even using both Linux
and BSD together.  At lot of Linux people seem to get a big head about
their OS and kernel.  (A lot != high percentage)  I noticed this back
when all I was was a linux guy, but I was not one to dis on other
unices.

Also, I do like both a lot and see advantages in both.

> 
> Anyway, I like both very much, I am following this e-mail list and 
> playing with my FreeBSD install in another slice to get confortable and 
> perhaps, one day, I will change. Also I try to help the FreeBSD proyect 
> submitting some bug reports as I found them. I am not an expert but I 
> enjoy helping others.
> 
> 
> PS: I am a christian and I DO NOT see any reasons to hate the beastie. I 
> love the beastie, I find  it nice, pleasant and kind. I like it very 
> much. Do not change it please! ;-)

P.S.  I am also a born-again christian and have never thought anything
bad of beastie, it's not a demon after all.  I don't think it should be
changed.

> 
> Sorry for my bad english.
> Enjoy the Free OSes.
> 
> Ramiro.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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-- 
I sense much NT in you.
NT leads to Bluescreen.
Bluescreen leads to downtime.
Downtime leads to suffering.
NT is the path to the darkside.
Powerful Unix is.

Public Key: ftp://ftp.tallye.com/pub/lorenl_pubkey.asc
Fingerprint: B3B9 D669 69C9 09EC 1BCD  835A FAF3 7A46 E4A3 280C
 
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Re: Any success in extracting mpeg from a vcd?

[matt virus]

use vcdgear -- it's in the ports collection.


Mark Jayson Alvarez wrote:
Hi,
   Do you have any success extracting mpeg files from
a vcd?For sure I can play them with mplayer with vcd
option but I haven't had any luck extracting them.
I've been trying to figure out how vcdgear(console) or
vcdxrip(vcdimager) works but still no luck.
Any idea how they work??
I'm using FreeBSD5.3. I have installed them from ports
My cdrom drive is at /dev/acd0
 Plesee... I'm begging you... pleaaaseee... I've
tried various combinations of options with those
programs I've mentioned above but I'm just too dumb
that I can't figure out how I should be doing it. I
know someday I may be able to comprehend with their
manual, its just that I don't have enough time. If I
don't return those vcd's to the shop, I will be paying
a huge fine:(. 
 Why does it always have to be this way? I was a
long time windows user and I know its a tough decision
to completely eradicate that entire partition
dedicating it all to freebsd, just to be able to learn
the "right" way how people should be using a computer.
   
I remember one time, I have been reading the
manual of ldconfig over and over again because of some
program that doesn't compile not knowing where my
libraries are, and I've played with various options
trying to restore the hint files I've messed with only
to find out that a complete reboot or just "ldconfig"
alone will bring it back. 
   I just can't get it. I've had a hard time trying to
make my modem dial up to internet, and nearly freaked
out trying to compile a new kernel with atapicam
support, or even skipped a meal trying to learn the vi
editor, and even messed really bad with one of our
production servers at work trying to create a cvsup
mirror, 
and worst, I even got a lot of awful response when I
try to ask a simple question about running packet
filter at openbsd's mailing list where a lot of them
said "hey, this is not linux, there's no Linux-Howto's
here. RTFM!"
   I just can't understand it. Why do people have to
endure such hardships when they have other choices.
What does those people from ports collection gets from
maintaining such application that they barely even
know if someone have ever looked at its package
description. What do you get from responding to these
questions. Yeah, you can laugh at me now. I'm pathetic
that's it. Open Source is free and free software is
good. I'm not an advocate but just a simple user
trying to extract these f*ck*ng mpegs out of these
damn vcds!! Tomorrow I'll be returning those vcd's to
the shop with one day fine, but I won't sleep tonight
till I get those mpegs written right on the very
surface of my hardrive...






		
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--
Matt Virus ("veer-iss")
http://www.mattvirus.net
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Re: FusionPHP.net - Online Again Now!!!

[Dave Horsfall]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Colin J. Raven wrote:

> > Note: The paypal payment still stands, please provide us with proof 
> > you have forwarded the email to 250 people and include your paypal 
> > email address where we can send the money!!!
> 
> What you're suggesting is spammy. I don't doubt your good intentions, I 
> don't doubt that php-fusion is decent software (I know it is) but 
> *think* about what you suggested.

This is what's known as a "joe job".  Now, who has an interest in 
discrediting php-fusion?

-- Dave
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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Paul Mather]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:25:36 +0100, Anthony Atkielski
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Paul Mather writes:
> 
> > As I said, that's why you'd contract with one of those outfits in
> the
> > "Vendors" section.
> 
> If they can do the job.  Since they didn't write the code, though, they
> aren't ultimately accountable for it.

I hate to burst your bubble, but neither is any other OS vendor
ultimately accountable for its code.  By that, I mean you can file
"problem reports" or "trouble tickets" or whatever the phrase du jour
is, but the company is ultimately under no obligation to fix them.
(Also, if you read your license carefully, they don't guarantee the OS
will work, nor are you protected against it destroying your data.)  Even
some critical reported bugs go unfixed for relatively long periods of
time.  (This is not to suggest that problems don't get fixed, but merely
an illustration that when it comes down to it, you have no guarantees
with them, either.)

Just because a support/contracting company is not "ultimately
accountable" for code they didn't write does not mean they can't put
together a well-crafted solution that is known and tested to work within
given client parameters.  (FreeBSD's general adherence to POLA helps
here.)  MSCEs aren't "ultimately accountable" for Windows code, but they
get hired all the time to fix things and build solutions, right?

> > BTW, it is usually not realistic to expect an organisation to have
> "all
> > the expertise it needs to support those solutions in-house and on
> site."
> 
> That depends on the size of the organization.  I've encountered
> organizations that wrote their own operating systems.

 Which would make them representative examples, I suppose (note my
use of the word "usually")...

And, with that statement, I'll confess that the laws of diminishing
returns threshold has now been reached for me in this thread and I'll
bid my farewell.  The reason I posted in what is probably the biggest
bikeshed of the year was due to one of your pronouncements that it was
not possible to get professional "telephone support" when it comes to
FreeBSD.  I pointed out it is.  That's all.  I'll leave it to the
various consultants that frequent the list(s) to argue the merits and
relative quality of the service they provide. :-)

Cheers,

Paul.
-- 
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

"Without music to decorate it, time is just a bunch of boring production
 deadlines or dates by which bills must be paid."
--- Frank Vincent Zappa
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Re: Problem accessing net from a NAT Firewall

[David Wassman]

Micheal,
The IP addresses are the same ones used in The Complete FreeBSD from 
Greg Lehey for the back end network. I can use 192.x.x.x or 172.x.x.x to 
see if they work. Will let you know. Thanks for the help.

David
Michael L. Squires wrote:
I don't understand this entry:
On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, David Wassman wrote:
# static address for internal interface
ifconfig_xe0="inet 223.147.37.1 netmask 255.255.255.0 broadcast 
223.147.37.255"

This is a valid IP address, not one of the three sets of IP numbers 
reserved for internal networks (you use one, 172.x.x.x, in your 
firewall script).  Shouldn't the internal network address be one of 
those three, i.e., one of 192.x.x.x, 172.x.x.x, 10.x.x.x ?

Or I may not be understanding your setup at all.
I have a cable model, FreeBSD 4.11 firewall/NAT, internal network 
using 10.x.x.x numbers (bad choice, 10.x.x.x is used by Comcast/ATT, 
etc.), 100Mbit switch, 1 Mac, 4 MS, 3 FreeBSD clients all using IP 
numbers in the 10.x.x.x range.

MLS

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Re: Any success in extracting mpeg from a vcd?

[Michael Johnson]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 9:46 AM, Mark Jayson Alvarez wrote:

Hi,
 Do you have any success extracting mpeg files from
a vcd?For sure I can play them with mplayer with vcd
option but I haven't had any luck extracting them.
I've been trying to figure out how vcdgear(console) or
vcdxrip(vcdimager) works but still no luck.
Any idea how they work??
I'm using FreeBSD5.3. I have installed them from ports
My cdrom drive is at /dev/acd0
mplayer  -dumpstream
will dump all mpeg from the vcd in to one big mpeg file.
Michael
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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Shawn Harrison]

Chris Zumbrunn wrote [02/12/05 1:53 PM]:
Don't you think this Beastie qualifies as a professional logo?
http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif
He's certainly austere enough with that Roman nose. "Gravitas."
--

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Re: problem with realplayer

[Loren M. Lang]

On Sat, Feb 12, 2005 at 10:18:29AM -0600, Brian John wrote:
> Loren M. Lang wrote:
> 
> >On Tue, Feb 08, 2005 at 09:33:25PM -0600, Brian John wrote:
> > 
> >
> >>Loren M. Lang wrote:
> >>
> >>   
> >>
> >>>On Mon, Feb 07, 2005 at 10:37:58PM -0600, Brian John wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> Loren M. Lang wrote:
> 
>  
> 
>    
> 
> >On Sun, Feb 06, 2005 at 01:41:35AM -0600, Brian John wrote:
> >
> >
> >   
> > 
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>Thanks
> >>
> >>/Brian
> >>___
> >>freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list
> >>http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions
> >>To unsubscribe, send any mail to 
> >>"[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >>   
> >>
> >   
> >
> > 
> >
> It looks like it is already installed.  This is what it says when I try 
> to install it:
> => Attempting to fetch from 
> http://fedora.quicknet.nl/fedora/fedora/2/i386/RPMS.updates/.
> gdk-pixbuf-0.22.0-11.3.5.i386.rpm 100% of  222 kB   52 kBps
> ===>  Extracting for linux-gdk-pixbuf-0.22.0.11.3.5_1
> => Checksum OK for rpm/gdk-pixbuf-0.22.0-11.3.5.i386.rpm.
> ===>  Patching for linux-gdk-pixbuf-0.22.0.11.3.5_1
> ===>   linux-gdk-pixbuf-0.22.0.11.3.5_1 depends on executable: rpm - 
> found
> ===>  Configuring for linux-gdk-pixbuf-0.22.0.11.3.5_1
> ===>  Installing for linux-gdk-pixbuf-0.22.0.11.3.5_1
> ===>   linux-gdk-pixbuf-0.22.0.11.3.5_1 depends on file: 
> /compat/linux/etc/redhat-release - found
> ===>   Generating temporary packing list
> ===>  Checking if graphics/linux-gdk-pixbuf already installed
> gdk-pixbuf-0.22.0-11.3.5.i386.rpm
> 
> Any other clue what might have caused this?
> 
> Thanks for the help
> 
> /Brian
>  
> 
>    
> 
> >>>
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>I already tried uninstalling realplayer and gdk-pixbuf using make 
> >>deinstall and make reinstall in those ports.  I installed realplayer 
> >>from ports.  How can I install linux-base-rh-9?  I would like to try that.
> >>   
> >>
> >
> >Here's an idea, since linux_base is already installed, try:
> >
> >portupgrade -o emulators/linux_base-rh-9 /var/db/pkg/linux_base-*
> >
> >This tells portupgrade to upgrade the linux_base port, but use the
> >origin for the rh9 version.  I'm not certain this will work, but it's
> >worth a try.  I just did a pkg_create -b linux_base-* to make a backup,
> >then pkg_delete -f linux_base-* and portinstall emulators/linux_base-rh-9.
> >
> > 
> >
> >>thanks
> >>
> >>/Brian
> >>   
> >>
> >
> > 
> >
> Well, I tried that and now I can't run realplayer at all.  This is what 
> happens:
> $ realplay
> /usr/local/lib/RealPlayer/realplay.bin: error while loading shared 
> libraries: libX11.so.6: cannot open shared object file: No such file or 
> directory
> 
> Any clue how I can fix this?

Yea, with -rh9 they moved the X libraries to a seperate port,
x11/linux-XFree86-libs, install that and it should work.  You may have
to add some lines to /usr/compat/linux/etc/ld.so.conf and/or run
/usr/compat/linux/sbin/ldconfig.

> 
> Thanks for the help
> 
> /Brian

-- 
I sense much NT in you.
NT leads to Bluescreen.
Bluescreen leads to downtime.
Downtime leads to suffering.
NT is the path to the darkside.
Powerful Unix is.

Public Key: ftp://ftp.tallye.com/pub/lorenl_pubkey.asc
Fingerprint: B3B9 D669 69C9 09EC 1BCD  835A FAF3 7A46 E4A3 280C
 
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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[darren kirby]

quoth the Anthony Atkielski:
> darren kirby writes:
> > I think your interpretation here is a tad glib.
>
> I think it's right on the money.  The entire Linux movement is fueled by
> hatred for Microsoft.  And the ultimate goal of the Linux movement is to
> build an OS that walks, talks, and quacks like Microsoft Windows, but
> doesn't come from Redmond.

That is just not right. Perhaps for Redhat, SuSe et al this may be the case, 
but what do you expect? MS is their primary (only?) competition. 

There are a million different reasons to run Linux, and a million different 
types of people that run it. I am part of the Linux community, or movement, 
or whatever you want to call it, and I sure as hell do not need people 
presuming to tell me my motives for running it.

> To me, that seems like a waste of time and energy.

To me, massive generalizations about the 'communities' of free *nix users, and 
all the bickering and infighting therein is a waste of time. Case in point: 
this email :)

> The idea in itself of building an alternative desktop operating system
> is fine.  But why does it have to look like Windows?  The more closely a
> system approaches the look and feel of Windows, the less reason there is
> to use that system instead of Windows.

Now you seem to be implying that the only difference between any two operating 
systems is what the GUI looks like. 

> And why use UNIX as a basis for a desktop GUI?  Just because it's there?
> I know Apple was forced to resort to that, but that doesn't make it a
> good idea.

So what's your solution, feed the Redmond beast? No thanks.

> > Do you think these people are writing any software? Are they designing
> > programming interfaces? Do they have a damn thing to do with the
> > development of Linux or any of its supporting software?
>
> Yes, a lot of them do.

In my experience, the developers are the quiet ones that speak with their 
software. It's the lusers that scream "Linux is teh roxor" everywhere you go. 
I am in full-on agreement that this particular group needs to grow up.

Again, I am not trolling, and I am not a Linux zealot. I run FreeBSD, Linux, 
Solaris and any other free unix I can get my hand on. Why? Because I think 
they're cool. All of them. Including Linux.

Peace,
-d
-- 
darren kirby :: Part of the problem since 1976 :: http://badcomputer.org
"...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected..."
- Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972


pgp4drKpLi7Qk.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Pleasedon'tchange Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!

[Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg]

Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes:
 
No.  Existing copies would still be distributable and derivable under
the original license terms.
 
What constitutes an "existing copy" in a world of downloads?

A downloaded copy that still exists? ;)
--
R
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Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don'tchange Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!

[Dag-Erling Smørgrav]

Anthony Atkielski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes:
> > No.  Existing copies would still be distributable and derivable under
> > the original license terms.
> What constitutes an "existing copy" in a world of downloads?

I think you know the answer to that question perfectly well.  I'm done
wasting my time on you.

DES
-- 
Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Anthony Atkielski]

Bart Silverstrim writes:

> Thank you for supporting vendor lock-in.

Recognizing, not supporting.

> At any rate, what you're essentially saying is that you want to run a
> particular application so no matter what happens this is what you must
> have and use.

Yes.

> Do don't even bother asking people who will suggest alternatives,
> because it's not what you want to hear.

It's not a matter of what I want or don't want.  I don't have any
choice.  That's business.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chuck Swiger writes:

> A = "copyright", B = "license".  A != B.

A license is limited permission to use copyrighted material.  A
copyright is the right to restrict the use of material without a
license.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Anthony Atkielski]

Bart Silverstrim writes:

> Um...methinks he was referring to finding your IP to crack your system
> since you just announced you don't update it...

I've made a note of his premeditation.  However, the system in question
is not accessible from the Net.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg]

Chris Zumbrunn wrote:
On Feb 12, 2005, at 9:11 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote:
Maybe just the FreeBSD part and a couple of stylized horns over it, 
but that would mean Beastie would not be clearly visible and I dont 
know if I dare to suggest that. ;)

I agree something like this...
http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns.gif
...would be possible as well.
But personally, I think FreeBSD should celebrate some of its 
idiosyncrasies - specially the ones that are representative of its BSD 
UNIX tradition. To professionalize FreeBSD we would have to change its 
name before we would "have to" drop Beastie as its logo. It's probably 
even true that FreeBSD is more associated and recognized by its Beastie 
logo than by its name - and I'm not kidding.

Totally agree, and thats why I suggest keeping Beastie as a mascot.
Look at linux, everyone knows the linux penguin, but that doesnt stop 
RedHat, Caldera, Debian etc from having professional looking logos.
And I think most of us agree that the reason RedHat is more accepted 
then FreeBSD in the commercial world is not due to its superior 
quality, stability or heritage, right?
Maybe their more professional looking image has something to do with 
it? ;)

--
R
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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Bart Silverstrim]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 4:05 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Bart Silverstrim writes:
I never quite liked these arguments.  The question to ask is, "What 
can
I use for graphics editing on platform X?  What can I use for desktop
publishing on platform Y?".
Not in this case, because many of these applications must produce files
that I can share with others, and/or they must work with legacy files
that I've collected myself, and/or they must read files provided to me
by others.  So equivalent functionality isn't good enough: it has to be
the same application.
Thank you for supporting vendor lock-in.
At any rate, what you're essentially saying is that you want to run a 
particular application so no matter what happens this is what you must 
have and use.  Do don't even bother asking people who will suggest 
alternatives, because it's not what you want to hear.  Use what you're 
going to use.  *shrug*

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Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!

[Chuck Swiger]

Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes:
You need to understand the difference between copyright and license,
and stop looking for black helicopters.
There isn't any difference.  Without copyrights, there are no licenses;
without licenses, there are no copyrights.
A = "copyright", B = "license".  A != B.
If this still does not make it clear, go look up the words or talk to somebody 
who knows the difference and is willing to explain it to you.  Until then, 
your comments resemble someone who is color-blind explaining that there is no 
difference between red and green to people who possess normal sight.

For all of the sound and fury of these threads, I don't see any code being 
written, any PRs being filed, or any technical questions being asked.  Please 
use chat or advocacy.

--
-Chuck
PS: I want a pony, too!
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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 2:00 PM, Chris Zumbrunn wrote:
On Feb 12, 2005, at 9:11 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote:
Chris Zumbrunn wrote:
[snip]
http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif
[snip]
Maybe just the FreeBSD part and a couple of stylized horns over it, 
but that would mean Beastie would not be clearly visible and I dont 
know if I dare to suggest that. ;)
I agree something like this...
http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns.gif
Looks like a stereo-typed viking :-)
Chad
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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Bart Silverstrim]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 4:01 PM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Vonleigh Simmons writes:
Rat Bastards at FreeBSD that don't break into the companies, steal the
code, and port their apps.
I don't understand this comment.
I can go months without rebooting.  My NT machine has gone for 
nearly a
year without a reboot.
*looks up your IP*
My IP won't tell you what uptime I have on my systems, although 
Netcraft
can tell you how long the production server has been running (but I can
save you the trouble: I booted it 26 hours and 50 minutes ago, because 
I
had thought that I had soft updates turned off).
Um...methinks he was referring to finding your IP to crack your system 
since you just announced you don't update it...

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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[ad5gb]

Did I miss something here? If so, please forgive the intrusion and waste of 
bandwidth.  But I don't recall David saying that FreeBSD had a superior 
human interface... anywhere.  I tend to agree with David having had to try to
build software on my FBSD systems that came from the 'Linux community' (i.e.
stuff outside of the ports or packages trees) and some of it has a MS-ish
'feel' in that it's our way or the highway.  Much of this stuff seems to have
a definite MS look-and-feel and even to the point of MS-like annoyances.

I agree with you however that Linux is lovable.  Indeed.  I am fortunate enough
to work for a company who uses it in every one of it's 3300+ stores across the 
nation.  And it does things that MS can only DREAM of doing.  What really
separates the OS's though is the kernel.  Not userland software.  In my humble
 ( and somewhat limited ) opinion the BSD kernel has proven to be far more
robust and reliable than it's Linux counterpart.  I've used FBSD since 2.1.0
and in all but a few occasions, FBSD's TCP/IP and networking performance 
exceeded any of the Linux distros performance by margins of as little as 5%,
to as much as 20% in measurable throughput.  ( I used to have a lot of time
on my hands so I could fool with such things)  

>From a personal standpoint, what bugs me MOST about the Linux kernel, is the
"thread-is-a-process" notion.  It drives me nuts.  (I'll make an appointment
tomorrow)  The latest 5x FBSD kernels have shown significant progress (and
advantage over Linux) in multi-threading in my limited testing.

Out of the box Linux distros might be 'prettier' with more elaborate 
'default' menu configurations and such.  But IMH(and limited)O  the kernels
can't compete.  

But let your own bit/byte counts be your guide.

Humbly


--
Randall D. DuCharme (Radio AD5GB)

Powered by FreeBSD!
The Power to Serve



 --- On Sat 02/12, darren kirby < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
From: darren kirby [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 11:41:01 -0800
Subject: Re: Freebsd vs. linux

quoth the David Kelly:> Look closely at the Linux community and you'll 
find its mostly> ex-Windows users focused on what Microsoft is doing. The 
desire is to> one-up Microsoft at Microsoft's own game. Their definition 
of> "computer" and "human interface" was written by Microsoft and 
still> can't think outside of that box.I think your interpretation 
here is a tad glib. Sure there are thousands of people coming to Linux 
because they 'hate' MS. Sure they don't know gcc from ppc but I don't think 
it is fair to call them the 'community', rather a small subset. Do you 
think these people are writing any software? Are they designing programming 
interfaces? Do they have a damn thing to do with the development of Linux 
or any of its supporting software? Hell no. They are just users clogging up 
the message boards and mailing lists with stupid questions. "Human 
Interface"? Am I missing something? Can you please tell me where
  the much superior FreeBSD human interface can be downloaded? In the 
console they are pretty much the same keystroke for keystroke, and on the 
desktop it is all the same software...I run FreeBSD and Linux, and 
I love them both. I am trying to point out that when you slam Linux 
developers with pettiness and name calling that you are no better than all 
the lusers slamming MS, and thinking they're leet because they installed 
Fedora? I have noticed a lot of this on FreeBSD lists, and I think it is 
counterproductive because it is unprofessional and in the end more people 
using Linux means more people running free software which benefits _all_ of 
us...and besides, it is offensive to people like me that just like playing 
with 'nix boxes and run both.Why can't you just run your FreeBSD and 
feel superior, silently?> Look closely at the BSD community and you'll 
find those who are working> at creating a better tool to serv
 e their needs. Much debate about> exactly what constitutes "better" so 
there is also quite a bit of> experimenting. What you won't find is 
Microsoft as the yardstick by> which BSD's measure.>> --> David 
Kelly N4HHE, [EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> 
Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.>> 
___> 
freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list> 
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions> To 
unsubscribe, send any mail to> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"-- darren 
kirby :: Part of the problem since 1976 :: http://badcomputer.org"...the 
number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected..."- 
Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972Attachment: Attachment  
(0.19KB)

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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Anthony Atkielski]

Bart Silverstrim writes:

> I never quite liked these arguments.  The question to ask is, "What can
> I use for graphics editing on platform X?  What can I use for desktop 
> publishing on platform Y?".

Not in this case, because many of these applications must produce files
that I can share with others, and/or they must work with legacy files
that I've collected myself, and/or they must read files provided to me
by others.  So equivalent functionality isn't good enough: it has to be
the same application.

> Not everyone absolutely needs Photoshop to edit their family Xmas
> digicam pictures.

Neither do I.  But I do a lot of other editing.  And the average family
user is better off using a turnkey commodity OS like Windows than trying
to install something like UNIX.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as

[Anthony Atkielski]

Joshua Tinnin writes:

> I see that you've volunteered your efforts once again in an area you
> found lacking.

Not in this area, although I did volunteer some DTP work.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Anthony Atkielski]

Vonleigh Simmons writes:

> Rat Bastards at FreeBSD that don't break into the companies, steal the
> code, and port their apps.

I don't understand this comment.

>> I can go months without rebooting.  My NT machine has gone for nearly a
>> year without a reboot.
>
> *looks up your IP*

My IP won't tell you what uptime I have on my systems, although Netcraft
can tell you how long the production server has been running (but I can
save you the trouble: I booted it 26 hours and 50 minutes ago, because I
had thought that I had soft updates turned off).

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Chris Zumbrunn]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 9:11 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote:
Chris Zumbrunn wrote:
[snip]
http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif
[snip]
Maybe just the FreeBSD part and a couple of stylized horns over it, 
but that would mean Beastie would not be clearly visible and I dont 
know if I dare to suggest that. ;)
I agree something like this...
http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/freehorns.gif
...would be possible as well.
But personally, I think FreeBSD should celebrate some of its 
idiosyncrasies - specially the ones that are representative of its BSD 
UNIX tradition. To professionalize FreeBSD we would have to change its 
name before we would "have to" drop Beastie as its logo. It's probably 
even true that FreeBSD is more associated and recognized by its Beastie 
logo than by its name - and I'm not kidding.

Chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  +41 329 41 41 41
Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/
Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum
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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Anthony Atkielski]

Joshua Tinnin writes:

> Maybe you should write to the developer of Agent and inquire about this
> issue.

What issue?

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Anthony Atkielski]

Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:

> After taking out all the  kernel level stuff for the GUI and other
> performance enhancements that MS has made for the gamers and other 
> people, I would say that it is probably true that the NT kernel and the
> BSD kernels are in the same order of magnitude of stability.  Dave 
> Cutler and his crew from DEC did a good job with VMS and VAX/ELN and 
> RSX-11M and I would assume that they would do the same job in their 
> kernel design and implementation for M$.

They did.  The kernel is excellently written.

Microsoft threw a lot of that away in favor of the gamers you mention
and of clueless Windows desktop users generally.  The solid NT kernel is
still there, but MS has drilled a great many large holes through it.

> disclaimer:  I have not seen the source to NT but I do know the
> reputations of the implementors and designers of (at least the 
> original) NT kernel.

I have seen the source to both NT and the Win 9x family, and the
difference is like night and day.  The former was clearly written by a
lot of people with a lot of prior experience under their belts; the
latter was clearly written by people who had never written much of
anything before they started working on Windows.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg]

Jerry McAllister wrote:
Matthias Buelow writes:

And your point is..?
I can see that FreeBSD marketing has a long way to go.

To where?FreeBSD is not marketed in any particular way - on purpose.  
No one wants to do it, so no one will do it.

jerry
I want to, and frequently do, market FreeBSD.
I can tell you that the website and the community is not much help 
when trying to sell FreeBSD to the un-enlightened. When trying to sell 
it in commercial companies boardrooms, I make damn sure not to mention 
Beastie and usually never even show them the official webpage.

--
R
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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Bart Silverstrim]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 5:30 AM, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
Michael C. Shultz writes:
I Agree!  My FreeBSD desktop is very stable and user friendly. What
ever time I spend fixing/managing desktops is on my friends windows
machines, never my own because it always just works.
Maybe you can explain to me how to get the following applications to 
run
on a FreeBSD desktop:

Adobe Photoshop
Adobe Illustrator
Quark XPress
The Sims 2

I never quite liked these arguments.  The question to ask is, "What can 
I use for graphics editing on platform X?  What can I use for desktop 
publishing on platform Y?".  Otherwise, it's like saying, "Explain how 
I can get a Ford from Chevrolet?"

Not everyone absolutely needs Photoshop to edit their family Xmas 
digicam pictures.

-Bart
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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Anthony Atkielski]

darren kirby writes:

> I think your interpretation here is a tad glib.

I think it's right on the money.  The entire Linux movement is fueled by
hatred for Microsoft.  And the ultimate goal of the Linux movement is to
build an OS that walks, talks, and quacks like Microsoft Windows, but
doesn't come from Redmond.

To me, that seems like a waste of time and energy.

The idea in itself of building an alternative desktop operating system
is fine.  But why does it have to look like Windows?  The more closely a
system approaches the look and feel of Windows, the less reason there is
to use that system instead of Windows.

And why use UNIX as a basis for a desktop GUI?  Just because it's there?
I know Apple was forced to resort to that, but that doesn't make it a
good idea.

> Do you think these people are writing any software? Are they designing
> programming interfaces? Do they have a damn thing to do with the
> development of Linux or any of its supporting software?

Yes, a lot of them do.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don'tchange Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes:

> No.  Existing copies would still be distributable and derivable under
> the original license terms.

What constitutes an "existing copy" in a world of downloads?

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes:

> To whom?  The FreeBSD project is not a legal entity.

Then I can release it to the public domain.

> That is a very bad idea, because you can't disclaim liability for work
> which you release in the public domain.

Whether you retain or relinquish the copyright has no effect on your
liability.

-- 
Anthony


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A list question

[Chris]

As someone has pointed out before, and NEEDS to be mentioned yet again. 
Let's move the conversations to the proper lists. Chat and Advocacy come 
to mind.
Let's not continue to fan the flames and have the "Anthony" users out 
there more reason to "win" users over to another way of 
thinking/doing/etc. 

Let the "Anthony's" do so in the proper forum... This list is not that 
forum.

So, for those of us that wish the list returned to normalcy, I ask - can 
we move the threads to the proper place?

Chris
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes:

> Are you intentionally misinterpreting me?

No, I'm correcting you.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as

[Joshua Tinnin]

On Saturday 12 February 2005 01:58 am, Anthony Atkielski 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC writes:
> > This is all very well and good, but is irrelevant to the earlier
> > discussion.
>
> It doesn't have to be relevant to the earlier discussion.  It is very
> highly relevant to FreeBSD.
>
> > You are not a Suit we are trying to impress or get to use FreeBSD.
> > You are on a general technical support mailing list and "behavior"
> > here is different than would be in a formal presentation or even
> > official support mechanism.
>
> The problem is that this is the only behavior there is for the
> moment. There is no official support mechanism, and I daresay there
> is virtually no one who can do good formal presentations of the OS,
> either.

I see that you've volunteered your efforts once again in an area you 
found lacking. Good work! I look forward to seeing your efforts here, 
too.

- jt
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Re: Why in the world you should have a vote: was RE: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo suchas NetBSD!!!

[Anthony Atkielski]

Dag-Erling Smørgrav writes:

> You need to understand the difference between copyright and license,
> and stop looking for black helicopters.

There isn't any difference.  Without copyrights, there are no licenses;
without licenses, there are no copyrights.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such asNetBSD!!!

[Joshua Tinnin]

On Saturday 12 February 2005 02:07 am, Anthony Atkielski 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ted Mittelstaedt writes:
> > The committers do know about this and are careful about it.  You
> > will note that this is discussed more fully here:
> >
> > http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/contributing/co
> >ntrib- how.html
> >
> > under the section:
> >
> > New Code or Major Value-Added Packages
> >
> > I am very surprised that you missed this.  Could it be made any
> > more obvious?
>
> Yes, it could be made about a thousand times more obvious.  It should
> be right on the first page of the site, not buried in the
> documentation.
>
> And it is still a bit worrisome, because it says "When working with
> large amounts of code, the touchy subject of copyrights also
> invariably comes up."  Unfortunately, copyright applies to small
> amounts of code, too, not just large amounts.  Even a few lines can
> lead to litigation if the copyright status of those lines is not
> verified and cleared before they are incorporated into the product.

I think it's great that you're volunteering to do this. Keep us updated 
on your status!

- jt
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Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Anthony Atkielski]

Kevin Kinsey writes:

> I'm guessing *you* are atypical in this.

I know that I am not.  About 95% of all problems with Windows machines
are experienced by about 5% of the user base.  The rest of the world has
no problems.

> Most of our Windows boxes are rather stable. But our FreeBSD ones are
> simply rocks. It's true I can't just "pointy clicky" them into a
> usable configuration, but the software runs for as long as we wish.

All of my machines are rock stable, both FreeBSD and Windows.  FreeBSD
might win over the long run, but when both systems will run for years,
the winner isn't that important.

> That is in a rather direct opposition to the majority of our on-site
> service calls for clients, which generally have to do with
> troubleshooting software issues on Windows boxes related to "annoying
> software failures", and "pop-ups, viruses, and malware".

User errors, in other words.

> There are thousands upon thousands times thousands of relatively
> clueless users out there who do have problems with Windows whether
> they know it or not.

They would have the same problems with FreeBSD, or with any other OS.

> For my office, a FreeBSD desktop makes a good bit of sense.  I don't
> have major software issues with FreeBSD, and my unit cost is a hundred
> bucks or more less than a Windows desktop.

I'd use FreeBSD on my desktop if I could, but I can't.  I'd love to be
able to save €400 in license fees per machine and have all the source
code.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Vonleigh Simmons]

I have to run these applications for work and play.  I therefore cannot
use any operating system that doesn't support them on the desktop.
	Rat Bastards at FreeBSD that don't break into the companies, steal the 
code, and port their apps.


I never allow anything on my machines to be automatically updated.  I
perform all updates myself, explicitly, and I never update anything
unless I have to.
...snip...
I can go months without rebooting.  My NT machine has gone for nearly a
year without a reboot.
*looks up your IP*
Vonleigh Simmons

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Re: SPAM: Score 3.3: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Anthony Atkielski]

Matthias Buelow writes:

> Well, if you just run a set of 1-3 applications, and don't do anything
> else with the computer, there shouldn't be much of a difference.

True, if those applications run identically on both platforms.

> Apart from making a political statement, the advantage is
> of course being independent from the Microsoft update cycle.

The disadvantage is that you need orders of magnitude more technical
expertise in-house to support the OS.

A serious problem will arise if the city wants to install a new
application and it runs only on Windows.

> Another point, as far as I got it, was security, i.e., higher
> resilience towards worms and viruses.

Except that this isn't the case.  Most of the stuff I see on bugtraq
these days references versions of UNIX, particularly Linux.  UNIX has
traditionally been a less tempting target, but it is not a less
vulnerable target.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: My thoughts on the list as of late...

[Bart Silverstrim]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 7:19 AM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chris
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 4:11 AM
To: FreeBSD - Questions
Subject: OT: My thoughts on the list as of late...
As I read *some* (mainly because there is far too much crap going in,
and not enough decent content coming out) of the postings, I reflect
back on my personal views on mankind as a whole.
Being of a cynical nature - I tend to look at things with a
"there must
be a reason for this influx of crapoloa in".
I come up with, divide and conquer. I'm starting to see a pattern in
this list. Far too many users bickering about;
1. FreeBSD vs. (insert OS here)
2. 4.xx is better then 5.xx
3. Ports are crappy compared to ...
4. Too many dependencies compared to ...
5. FreeBSD is on SORBS ... what next?
Etc. etc. etc. I suppose this could be just one big pissing contest,
then again (being cynical) I tend to think it's a select "group" of
users that are set out to divide and conquer.
Keep the list in termoil, keep them bashing whom or whatever,
keep them
distracted from the real goals - so that when potential users want to
investigate *BSD, they see the turmoil going on within the *BSD lists.
Could that be a turn off to the potential new-comer? Very possible.
Am I on target with this cynical point of view? Probably not however,
ask yourself after reading a few weeks of the garbage that seeps into
this list then pose that question again.
I suppose it is all just coincidence that the list has become
messy over
the last few months. But is seems to me that it has increased more so
since the posting on the FreeBSD site relating to the "Deep Study".
Again, I'm not pointing fingers. Nor am I creating an innuendo. I'm
simply drawing conclusions based on my view points and I
thought I might
share them in hopes that perhaps some of us will not respond to what I
think are baiting posts.
Good thoughts - now, I have to ask the obligatory "Is there a question
somewhere here" before someone else does.
You do realize that without asking one, you are participating in the
non-question-based discussion you are trying to argue against, right?
Here's a question...could it not be the byproduct of the same growth in 
signal-to-noise that has been rising ever since the Internet became 
popular among the non-academic crowd?  As more Joe Normals join up to 
this Internet phenomena thing, there is an expected growth in all these 
lists not being used purely as they were meant to be used?

At a hundred posts a day, there are many many threads I skip or delete 
without reading.  If the subject doesn't show something that I may be 
able to glean some information from or contribute something 
to...*blip*...gone.  People complaining about the noise might want to 
hit delete more often.

Then again, that's what I used to say ten years ago about SPAM...
-Bart
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Re: Problem with Exim

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 8:26 AM, Aaron Dalton wrote:
Since upgrading to the latest exim (4.44?) I will occasionally notice 
I am not receiving mail.  I will check the server (ps -ax | grep 
'exim') and find that there are dozens of exim processes running (exim 
-bd -q30m).  I will do 'exim.sh stop' but that only kills the initial 
process and not the others.  If I manually kill all the stray 
processes, as soon as I start receiving mail new ones will appear.  If 
I reboot, then everything works fine for about 24 hours then it starts 
to happen again.  Has anybody else had this happen or does anybody 
know what might be causing the problem?  I do run Exim with Clamav and 
I keep all my ports updated almost daily.

Your time and assistance is greatly appreciated.
Aaron
Without looking at your exim config file, it is hard to say why your 
system behaves as it does.  However, there is an exim specific list you 
can use to get help (be prepared to give more detail including config 
file details).

The list is referenced at www.exim.org
Chad
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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Anthony Atkielski]

Ramiro Aceves writes:

> There are not a myth, they are a fact. I have seen bluescreens
> frecuently in win95 and winMillenium.

Neither of these is based on NT, and both are dead products.

> Now I am out of the winbugs world since 2 years and I am very happy.

Perhaps longer than that, if you think Windows 95 is still current.

> Sure X is the culprit.

I agree.  FreeBSD is stable without the GUI.  If the GUI were purely a
userland program, there'd be no problem--but GUIs are never pure
userland programs.

> I need the GUIs for my daily work. Electronic circuit design software
> requires GUI, imaging editing requieres GUI, and because of that many
> people needs a GUI, but that is not a reason to use Winbugs.

You have to use whatever platform supports your chosen application.

> I have seen also winXP computers here at University that do very weird
> things everyday.

Users at universities do very weird things to their computers.  In
particular, university computers tend to be cesspools of viruses and
worms.  It's a wonder they run at all.

> Why not choosing Linux or FreeBSD for the desktop?

Because the leading desktop is Windows, with a quarter-million or so
applications written for it.  Why do things the hard way when one can do
them the easy way?

> I can choose a windowmanager among decens, I have many apps that
> perform the same or better than the winbugs counterparts, and the best
> of all, they are *free* and do not depend on any comercial enterprise.

Quite a few applications for Windows are free or very inexpensive as
well.

> I do not need too much bells and whistles to fell confortable at the
> desktop. A fluxbox window manager is perfect for me. The important
> thing are the apps, not the desktop.

Then why use a GUI at all?  GUIs are nothing more than bells and
whistles.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

I made the choice of FreeBSD in 1996 for my fledgling hosting business. 
 I considered Linux and FreeBSD.  At the time, FreeBSD was considered 
to have a much better VM system under load, and similar sorts of 
stability characteristics.  I chose FreeBSD then and am glad I did so.  
I do not know what the Linux VM system is like now, 8.5 years later.  
However, I read some recent remarks by people I would consider 
competent who say that the FreeBSD VM system is still superior.

One of the biggest differences between Linux and the BSD derived 
systems is the license.  If you agree with RMS (Richard Stallman of the 
FSF) you should probably go with Linux.  If you prefer a more free 
market oriented license that is truly free, then a BSD system is 
probably more in line with your needs.

There are LOTS of technical differences of course, but from a user or 
admin level, they are both similar, as they are both unix-derived 
environments.

I do have a single gentoo system for some special java processing.  At 
the time it was installed, the FreeBSD java was not at the same level 
as the Linux one was.  Now the differences in the java systems are 
minor and if I could, I would migrate this machine over to FreeBSD.  
However, it is in production and such a move would take too much time.

best
Chad
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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Anthony Atkielski]

Paul Mather writes:

> As I said, that's why you'd contract with one of those outfits in the
> "Vendors" section.

If they can do the job.  Since they didn't write the code, though, they
aren't ultimately accountable for it.

> BTW, it is usually not realistic to expect an organisation to have "all
> the expertise it needs to support those solutions in-house and on site."

That depends on the size of the organization.  I've encountered
organizations that wrote their own operating systems.

-- 
Anthony


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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Joshua Tinnin]

On Saturday 12 February 2005 03:23 am, Anthony Atkielski 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ted Mittelstaedt writes:
> > You got to be kidding - you actually prefer this over trn?  ;-)
>
> I've never used trn.  Forte Agent works fine for me.  I originally
> used Outlook Express but I couldn't put custom quote headers into it,
> and so I switched.  Ultimately Agent turned out to be very superior
> to OE. Neither runs on FreeBSD, however.

Maybe you should write to the developer of Agent and inquire about this 
issue. I'm not aware that anyone here can do anything about other 
projects, especially ones written specifically for Windows. Maybe you 
should try Pan.

- jt
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Bart Silverstrim]

On Feb 11, 2005, at 4:51 PM, Peter Risdon wrote:
On Fri, 2005-02-11 at 15:56 -0500, Garance A Drosihn wrote:
At 8:00 AM -0500 2/11/05, Bart Silverstrim wrote:
[...]
Since when did FreeBSD, a project always driven by volunteers and
not by commercial matters,
FreeBSD is a commercially viable operating system. I happen to think
it's the best server OS there is - for businesses. This thread has made
it seem, sometimes, as though the touch of commerce is anathema, which
is silly. As I understand it, the support of commercial organisations 
is
vital to the project. If you want a project that pisses on its 
sponsors,
there's always OpenBSD.
I didn't say it wasn't commercially viable.  What I said was that it 
was driven by the volunteers.

Commercial support isn't being "pissed on".  BUT it can easily taint it 
when a commercial sponsor goes from *just* supporting to saying they'll 
support more if...and more if this...and that...oh, and you don't want 
that person over there on the commit list because he's not a team 
player.  And yes, I'm overdramatizing to try to make a point.

If they want to support it, that's great. But the thing I don't want to 
see (and I hope others don't want to see) is FreeBSD starting to have 
it's priorities driven by commercial interests or a group of people who 
want to mess with something solely because it's not their definition of 
politically correct.

The difference between driven by volunteers and driven by commercial 
interests is that commercial interests will cater to the user and give 
them what they want.  The volunteers give them what they need.  What 
they want yields products like Windows, so hobbled by bandages and 
bandaids for backward compatibility and security breaches to support 
their "ease of use" mantra that it is...well...crappy for use anywhere 
but the desktop.  What they need yields servers that are reliable and 
robust and minimize unscheduled downtime.

suddenly gain a marketing department
that is trying to steer FreeBSD into the business sector?
You mean it isn't in the business sector? It's just for geeks to put on
their home computers? Somebody ought to mention that to Yahoo. And 
let's
hope nobody who is having FreeBSD pitched to them as a viable server OS
for their business reads that remark as they google.
Again, never said it wasn't.  It was well made and it HAPPENED TO BE 
perfectly viable for that use.  It was never a group of people who sat 
down and said, "How can we build this OS to serve Yahoo's customers the 
best?"

Never read the remark that there's an ulterior motive behind the 
creation of FreeBSD, that it was aimed for businesses?  My impression 
was that it was created to be a good server OS.  Use it or don't.  It 
doesn't need businesses to survive, but if they use it they'd be better 
off.  It was untainted by business politics and marketing tripe.  
FreeBSD and Linux were examples of what happens when marketers stay OUT 
of the core process of delivering the project and the geeks using and 
developing the OS told users that if they wanted a feature, they might 
put it in...maybe not.  Don't like it, you can do it yourself.  Is this 
the best approach?  Probably not.  But it's how it came to this point.  
If marketing led FreeBSD's goals now, you'd have an OS that would 
require three times the RAM, twice the disk space, Ports would have a 
front end tool that's entirely GUI driven, the OS would have more 
services by default, and it would always install and boot to a GUI 
based on GNOME or KDE...because it friendlier and more marketable that 
way.

 Is
FreeBSD starting to have marketing dictate technology instead of
technology dictate marketing?
What changes would a logo require of the underlying technology of
FreeBSD? That's just rhetoric.
It doesn't.  The question was, "is FreeBSD starting to have...".
Some of those volunteers would like to see a new logo.  Others
would not.  The vast majority probably do not care at all.  Somehow
the ones who like the present logo seem to think they can simply
dismiss all comments from the other volunteers who would like a
new logo, as if the work done by THOSE volunteers is somehow
irrelevant.
I haven't noticed anyone suggest that Beastie be banished, just that a
proper logo might be appropriate now. Here's a suggestion: Beastie 
stays
as the mascot. People use it as and when they wish, subject to
conditions which are at the discretion of a private individual and not
the FreeBSD project. And there's a new logo, as opposed to mascot, if
the competition throws up one people like.
This distinction has been being made more and more; "change logo, not 
mascot".   I think what got people's hackles in a bind was that there 
has been periodic discussion over changing or altering the mascot 
because it's too satanic.  He's evil!  You're debbil worshippers!

This periodic infringement of religion on geek territory...the mascot 
that has come to represent what many people have donated significant 
portion

Re: Last try: HP Pavillion zv5445us shuts down during install of 5.3

[bsdnooby]

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
does it work with 4.11?
Ted
 

It does not work with 4.x either.  I will collect my hardware specs and 
post those, shortly.  The frustrating thing is that the system simply 
turns itself off after  I choose to install, so there is no error log.  
I might also post my question to freebsd-mobile once I collect all the 
data I can.

thx!
--
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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Chad Leigh -- Shire . Net LLC]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 5:59 AM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
The stabilities of NT-based systems and UNIX are roughly the same when
kernels are compared.
How exactly does one do this when the NT kernel code isn't available
for perusal?
Other than, of course, just running both and assuming that because
neither
happens to crash running a screensaver, that they must be roughly the
same.
That's a marketing comparison which has no value.
After taking out all the  kernel level stuff for the GUI and other 
performance enhancements that MS has made for the gamers and other 
people, I would say that it is probably true that the NT kernel and the 
BSD kernels are in the same order of magnitude of stability.  Dave 
Cutler and his crew from DEC did a good job with VMS and VAX/ELN and 
RSX-11M and I would assume that they would do the same job in their 
kernel design and implementation for M$.  However, since that happened 
MS has dumped a ton of crap into it.

Chad
disclaimer:  I have not seen the source to NT but I do know the 
reputations of the implementors and designers of (at least the 
original) NT kernel.

ex-DECcie
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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg]

Chris Zumbrunn wrote:
[snip]
Don't you think this Beastie qualifies as a professional logo?
http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif
Its a major step in the right direction.
Personally, I dont really like it, but if it was to be the new logo I 
would not complain.
It would solve most of the printing issues, but to me, it still does 
not look like something an advanced operating system would use. To 
much "playground" feeling over it.
Maybe just the FreeBSD part and a couple of stylized horns over it, 
but that would mean Beastie would not be clearly visible and I dont 
know if I dare to suggest that. ;)

No offense, I respect and appreciate your attempts. :)
--
R
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Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as NetBSD!!!

[Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg]

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

-Original Message-
From: Garance A Drosehn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:59 PM
To: Ted Mittelstaedt; freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: Please don't change Beastie to another crap logo such as
NetBSD!!!

And frankly, most FreeBSD commiters do not read the -advocacy or
-questions mailing lists (I never read advocacy, for instance).  So
maybe only three or four committers have explicitly expressed support
for a LOGO CONTEST.
 
Are you just too dense to understand that supporting a logo contest
automatically implies that you are unsatisfied with the current
logo?  If you like Beastie why on earth would you want a contest
to replace him?
I like Beastie! I wear shirts with Beastie! I have a 45cm tall sticker 
of Beastie on the front of my fridge, clearly visible to anyone that 
enters my appartment. I have "Powered by FreeBSD" stickers sporting 
Beastie on my laptop. I have Beastie as screensaver and as desktop 
background. Still, Im not to dense to realize that there is a need for 
a new logo. You, on the other hand, seem to be to dense* to realize 
the difference between a logo and a mascot.

For the last time, it is not the contest that I and others are
objecting to.  It is what you intend to do with the results of
the contest - that is, replace Beastie.
Not replace. Complement.
Some people would be extremely helped by a more proffesional looking 
logo. Therefor, the idea was put forward to complement Beastie with a 
logo useable in the commercial world. (Actually, the idea was never 
presented, it was drafted and then leaked before finished). This would 
mean that the people that likes Beastie can continue using it, while 
the people needing a more proffesional logo would also see their needs 
fullfilled.
However, some people does not need a new logo, and they seem to fight 
furiously to stop a change that basically would not affect them at 
all. I simply fail to understand their stand in this.

--
R
* When I call you dense I do not seriously mean to question your 
intelligence. I respect you as the author of a very good book and I 
value your contributions to the community as well as your opinions, 
but in this matter I just find it impossible to understand your point 
of view.

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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Chris Zumbrunn]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 8:16 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote:
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Roger 
'Rocky'
Vetterberg
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:26 AM
To: Chris Zumbrunn
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

However, everytime I've tried to suggest even the slightest change 
to freebsd.org, people has started to kick and scream and preach 
about the end of the OS as we know it.
I have never kicked and screamed about changes to the website layout
or such, as long as we don't get rid of the recognizable logos on it.
As far as Im concerned, there are no logos on the website. There is a 
mascot, but no logo. This, it seems, is a matter of opinion.

What I and others have always said when someone like you comes along
is that you should go for it.  Put up a prototype website, it's a
free country.  Let us look at it.  If it's better then the doc people
will welcome your efforts on it.
'Better' would be a matter of opinion. It would also depend on how you 
define a good website. For technical people looking for documentation, 
the current website is very good. For marketing purposes, it sucks.
Eventough it is possible to combine the two, I advocate the separated 
.org/.com solution, simply because the target audiences have very 
different needs. You, clearly belonging in the technical category, 
refuses to complement Beastie with a more proffesional logo, something 
I think is necessary to satisfy the second category. Hence, a separate 
site for marketing people seems to be a necessity.
Don't you think this Beastie qualifies as a professional logo?
http://top.ch/sitedata/freebsd/beastie.gif
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  +41 329 41 41 41
Chris Zumbrunn Ventures - http://www.czv.com/
Internet Application Technology - Reduced to the Maximum
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Re: FreeBSD Banners ?

[Jordan Michaels]

faisal gillani wrote:
i want to promote freebsd on my site , where can i
find good looking freebsd AD banners ?
if you have mail me on
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
thanks
=
*º¤., ¸¸,.¤º*¨¨¨*¤ Allah-hu-Akber*º¤., ¸¸,.¤º*¨¨*¤
   God is the Greatest
 

Greetings!
You can find current banners and such here:
http://www.freebsd.org/art.html
Hope this helps!
-Jordan
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Re: Freebsd vs. linux

[darren kirby]

quoth the David Kelly:

> Look closely at the Linux community and you'll find its mostly
> ex-Windows users focused on what Microsoft is doing. The desire is to
> one-up Microsoft at Microsoft's own game. Their definition of
> "computer" and "human interface" was written by Microsoft and still
> can't think outside of that box.

I think your interpretation here is a tad glib. Sure there are thousands of 
people coming to Linux because they 'hate' MS. Sure they don't know gcc from 
ppc but I don't think it is fair to call them the 'community', rather a small 
subset. Do you think these people are writing any software? Are they 
designing programming interfaces? Do they have a damn thing to do with the 
development of Linux or any of its supporting software? Hell no. They are 
just users clogging up the message boards and mailing lists with stupid 
questions. "Human Interface"? Am I missing something? Can you please tell me 
where the much superior FreeBSD human interface can be downloaded? In the 
console they are pretty much the same keystroke for keystroke, and on the 
desktop it is all the same software...

I run FreeBSD and Linux, and I love them both. I am trying to point out that 
when you slam Linux developers with pettiness and name calling that you are 
no better than all the lusers slamming MS, and thinking they're leet because 
they installed Fedora? I have noticed a lot of this on FreeBSD lists, and I 
think it is counterproductive because it is unprofessional and in the end 
more people using Linux means more people running free software which 
benefits _all_ of us...and besides, it is offensive to people like me that 
just like playing with 'nix boxes and run both.

Why can't you just run your FreeBSD and feel superior, silently?

> Look closely at the BSD community and you'll find those who are working
> at creating a better tool to serve their needs. Much debate about
> exactly what constitutes "better" so there is also quite a bit of
> experimenting. What you won't find is Microsoft as the yardstick by
> which BSD's measure.
>
> --
> David Kelly N4HHE, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Whom computers would destroy, they must first drive mad.
>
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-- 
darren kirby :: Part of the problem since 1976 :: http://badcomputer.org
"...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected..."
- Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972


pgpViivpoUsPt.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Install 5.3 - Getting mountroot> prompt

[Ean Kingston]

On February 12, 2005 12:18 pm, you wrote:
>   >   On February 11, 2005 09:42 pm, Scott wrote:
>   >>   I will really appreciate it of
>   >>   someone can help
>   >>   me out.
>   >>
>   >>   I am installing 5.3 on a dual p3
>   >>   server. I have
>   >>   two 160 gig Seagate IDE drives on the
>   >>   first IDE
>   >>   connector, and a CD rom on the 2nd
>   >>   IDE connector.
>   >>   I have reinstalled several times with
>   >>   different
>   >>   drive configurations and keep getting
>   >>   stuck at
>   >>   the same place.
>   >>
>   >>   At boot, the normal countdown loader
>   >>   comes up and
>   >>   it begins to boot. The boot message
>   >>   gets to this
>   >>   drive section below and then stops at
>   >>   a
>   >>   "mountroot>" prompt.
>   >>
>   >>   Begin copy ...
>   >>
>   >>   ad0: 152627MB 
>   >>   [310101/16/63]
>   >>   at ata0-master UDMA66
>   >>   ad1: 152627MB 
>   >>   [310101/16/63]
>   >>   at ata0-master UDMA66
>   >>   acd0:  at ata1-master
>   >>   PIO4
>   >
>   >   Your problem may be that you have two
>   >   drives on the same connector that are both
>   >   configured as the master. You need to
>   >   switch the ad1 drive to be the slave.
>
> Thanks Ean,
>
> That was an error in my posting. The second drive
> actually does show on the output as "slave". I
> retyped that into my message from the screen and
> copied and pasted that line and didn't change the
> "master" to "slave". It actually does show master and
> slave correctly.

Okay. No problem. I didn't see anything else wrong with what you posted.
For what it's worth, I've got an almost identical setup except my drives are 
120GB ATA-100.

> The master/slave settings are actually correct. Sorry
> for the confusion.
>
> I'm going to try to install 5.2.1 again and see if I still
> have the same issue.
>
>   >>   Manual root filesystem specification:
>   >>   : Mount 
>   >>   using filesystem
>   >>   
>   >>   eg. usf:da0s1a
>   >>   ? List valid desk boot devices
>   >>Abort manual input
>   >>
>   >>   mountroot>
>   >>
>   >>    End copy
>   >>
>   >>   If I type: ufs:ad0s1a
>   >>   at that "mountroot>"
>   >>   prompt, it will boot normally and as
>   >>   far as I can
>   >>   tell, all is working like I would
>   >>   expect. I
>   >>   suspected this may have something to
>   >>   do with my
>   >>   fstab but it looks normal to me:
>   >>
>   >>   /dev/ad0s1b  none  swap  sw  0 0
>   >>   /dev/ad1s1b  none  swap  sw  0 0
>   >>   /dev/ad0s1a  /ufs rw
>   >>   1 1
>   >>   /dev/ad1s1d  /backup  ufs  rw 2 2
>   >>   /dev/ad0s1d  /tmp   ufs  rw
>   >>   2 2
>   >>   /dev/acd0 /cdromcd9660
>   >>   ro,noauto  0 0
>   >>
>   >>   Please let me know if I can provide
>   >>   more
>   >>   information that will help you help
>   >>   me know
>   >>   what to do to get it to automatically
>   >>   go on
>   >>   to boot ad0s1a.

-- 
Ean Kingston

E-Mail: ean AT hedron DOT org
URL: http://www.hedron.org/
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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg]

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky'
Vetterberg
Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:26 AM
To: Chris Zumbrunn
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...
However, 
everytime I've tried to suggest even the slightest change to 
freebsd.org, people has started to kick and scream and preach about 
the end of the OS as we know it.

I have never kicked and screamed about changes to the website layout
or such, as long as we don't get rid of the recognizable logos on it.
As far as Im concerned, there are no logos on the website. There is a 
mascot, but no logo. This, it seems, is a matter of opinion.

What I and others have always said when someone like you comes along
is that you should go for it.  Put up a prototype website, it's a
free country.  Let us look at it.  If it's better then the doc people
will welcome your efforts on it.
'Better' would be a matter of opinion. It would also depend on how you 
define a good website. For technical people looking for documentation, 
the current website is very good. For marketing purposes, it sucks.
Eventough it is possible to combine the two, I advocate the separated 
.org/.com solution, simply because the target audiences have very 
different needs. You, clearly belonging in the technical category, 
refuses to complement Beastie with a more proffesional logo, something 
I think is necessary to satisfy the second category. Hence, a separate 
site for marketing people seems to be a necessity.

Generally when we say this people like you complaining
about the website disappear when they realize they are going to
have to put their labor where their mouths are.
If someone points out that something needs improvements, but they are 
unable to improve it themselves, does this mean that the need for 
improvement does not exist?
Im not a website designer nor a marketing droid, but Im still able to 
see that FreeBSD could need improvement in these areas. If I could 
contribute, I would, but I fear that anything I could design would not 
even beat what we have today. This does not mean that the current 
website is unbeatable, it just means that I suck at webdesigning.
If I could contribute in other ways, I would. Im more then willing to 
contribute financially and technically, its just that money and 
technical skills alone will not make a website.

So bye bye.
Ted
Bye.
--
R
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Re: FreeBSD5.2.1 - adduser pw: user 'user' disappeared during update

[Oliver Fuchs]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Louis Harvey wrote:

> Hello !
> 
> For the first time after installing FreeBSD 5.2.1, I am trying to add
> a new user, but without success so far. I have tried many times (as
> root), with /usr/sbin/adduser and also with /stand/sysinstall >
> Configure > User Management > User (Add a new user to the system), but
> the operation seems fo fail at the end, when I give the final YES. I
> get the following error message:
> 
> pw: user 'user' disappeared during update
> 
> I have checked on the Web giving the error message as input to google,
> but got only one highly pertinent message. In the end, the guy says he
> re-installed FreeBSD, wihich I cannot do right now.

Maybe this will help:

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-questions/2004-February/034920.html

> 
> I checked with the command vipw, and emacs shows the lines
> corresponding the users I attempted to create along with the other
> users I created at install time. There is no subdir under /home for my
> attempts at creating those users,  nor can I log into the system with
> those users.
> 
> Please, could someone help me with this message?
> 
> Salutations, Louis Harvey
> ___


Oliver
-- 
... don't touch the bang bang fruit
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Re: vinum in 4.x poor performer?

[Michael L. Squires]

On Wed, 9 Feb 2005, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
I read that somewhere, but then every example shows 256k as being the strip 
size :(  Now, with a 5 drives RAID5 array (which I'll be moving that server 
to over the next couple of weeks), 256k isn't an issue?  or is there 
something better i should set it to?

The 4.10 man 8 vinum page shows 512K in the example, but later on it says 
that if cylinder groups are 32MB in size you should avoid a power of 2 
which will place all superblocks and inodes on the same subdisk and that 
an odd number (479kB is the example) should be chosen.

Mike Squires
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Re: ipfilter2ipchains script?

[Peter N. M. Hansteen]

Luciano Musacchio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> if not, whats the better solution for a newbie bsd admin to do
> firewalls on linux? (long term plan is bsd-migration of course :)

The best option is to migrate your firewall to a BSD and use PF.  See
the PF faq at http://www.openbsd.org/faq/pf/ for some info on getting
started.

In the meantime, if short term migration is not an option, you might
want to look at something like Firewall Builder(http://www.fwbuilder.org) 
which I believe is able to generate configurations for PF, IPFW,
IPFilter and iptables from a common XML source.

-- 
Peter N. M. Hansteen, member of the first RFC 1149 implementation team
http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ http://www.datadok.no/ http://www.nuug.no/
"First, we kill all the spammers" The Usenet Bard, "Twice-forwarded tales"

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RE: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Roger 'Rocky'
> Vetterberg
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 9:26 AM
> To: Chris Zumbrunn
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...
> 
> 
> However, 
> everytime I've tried to suggest even the slightest change to 
> freebsd.org, people has started to kick and scream and preach about 
> the end of the OS as we know it.

I have never kicked and screamed about changes to the website layout
or such, as long as we don't get rid of the recognizable logos on it.

What I and others have always said when someone like you comes along
is that you should go for it.  Put up a prototype website, it's a
free country.  Let us look at it.  If it's better then the doc people
will welcome your efforts on it.

Generally when we say this people like you complaining
about the website disappear when they realize they are going to
have to put their labor where their mouths are.

So bye bye.

Ted
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Solved: Re: Install 5.3 - Getting mountroot> prompt

[Scott]

  >   At boot, the normal countdown loader comes
  >   up and it begins to boot. The boot message
  >   gets to this drive section below and then
  >   stops at a "mountroot>" prompt.

I believe I have solved my problem.

When I was creating partitions, I first created the swap,
then /tmp to the size I wanted, and all remaining space
went to / .

I began to think and wonder if the order in which the
partitions were created makes a difference so I tried again.
I then created the swap, next / and finally /tmp.

That seems to have made a difference. It is booting normally
now unless I chose option 2 to boot without ACPI. If I boot
without ACPI, it times out when finding the drives. Any
ideas what would cause that? I'd prefer to not run ACPI on
the server.

Thanks,
Scott



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RE: Last try: HP Pavillion zv5445us shuts down during install of 5.3

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

does it work with 4.11?

Ted

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of bsdnooby
> Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2005 7:40 AM
> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> Subject: Last try: HP Pavillion zv5445us shuts down during install of
> 5.3
>
>
> HP Pavillion zv5445us shuts down during install of 5.3
>
> Right after the screen when you can choose to disable ACPI or
> to boot in
> SafeMode (both of which I tried), after making a selection - it
> shutsdown.  I'm trying to install 5.3 from both floppies and CD1.  I'm
> dualbooting Win XP Pro using PartitionMagic8/BootMagic8 - but I do not
> think that is related.  My other Toshiba laptop is using a similar
> configuration, and works fine.
>
> I saw in Google where at least 1 other person had this problem, but
> there was no resolution.  This is a new laptop, P4-3Ghz, 512MB, 100GB
> drive, LAN & Wifi, etc.
>
> Anyone have success with the newer HP pavillions?
>
> thx
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.7 - Release Date: 2/10/2005
>
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FreeBSD5.2.1 - adduser pw: user 'user' disappeared during update

[Louis Harvey]

Hello !

For the first time after installing FreeBSD 5.2.1, I am trying to add
a new user, but without success so far. I have tried many times (as
root), with /usr/sbin/adduser and also with /stand/sysinstall >
Configure > User Management > User (Add a new user to the system), but
the operation seems fo fail at the end, when I give the final YES. I
get the following error message:

pw: user 'user' disappeared during update

I have checked on the Web giving the error message as input to google,
but got only one highly pertinent message. In the end, the guy says he
re-installed FreeBSD, wihich I cannot do right now.

I checked with the command vipw, and emacs shows the lines
corresponding the users I attempted to create along with the other
users I created at install time. There is no subdir under /home for my
attempts at creating those users,  nor can I log into the system with
those users.

Please, could someone help me with this message?

Salutations, Louis Harvey
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Re: Instead of freebsd.com, why not...

[Chris Zumbrunn]

On Feb 12, 2005, at 6:26 PM, Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg wrote:
I advocate changes, you disagree with me, and then you list a lot of 
points that should be changed? Im having difficulties with your logic 
here. :)
I'm not against the changes, of course. I'm not "against" a separate 
freebsd.com site either. But I disagree that there are no valid 
arguments against the site split. Changing the one combined site would 
be both possible and preferable.

All of your points are valid, there are so many things that would 
improve FreeBSD's image with just a little tweaking. However, 
everytime I've tried to suggest even the slightest change to 
freebsd.org, people has started to kick and scream and preach about 
the end of the OS as we know it. Therefor I have abandoned every hope 
of ever make freebsd.org evolve, and instead joined the advocates of a 
user-friendly freebsd.com website.

Personally, Im backing out of this discussion now. I would love to see 
something happen, but there is a limit to how much resistance and 
stubbornes a man can take. Everytime this kind of discussion has come 
up, I've tried my best to support any attempts of actually making 
something happen, but the incredible amount of resistance we always 
meet has made me question if its worth it. Until core or atleast a 
group of committers *make* something happen, I doubt anything will 
change.

If you go ahead and try to change freebsd.org, I wish you the best of 
luck. The brickwall you are about to bang youre head against is very 
hard. ;)
You may be right about that - or maybe the freebsd community will proof 
you wrong this time :-)  ...Either way, I think there is to much talk 
and to much focus on the surface, cosmetic stuff. The hard work is in 
producing and collecting the content for the "freebsd.com" site - not 
in linking to it from a professional looking front page. That we can 
do, whichever TLD suffix (or alternative domain name for that matter!) 
it will use.

/czv
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