Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Thursday 24 February 2005 12:46 am, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Mike Hauber writes: Found the thread... Have you tried installing an older version? No, but most of the problems I saw in my research were on 4.x or older versions. This version (5.3) seems to run fine once it's up; the only problem is getting the machine to boot it. Also, I'm getting those weird SCSI disk errors. Yeah. I just finished emailing someone who had the same problems, and it apparently isn't the problem I was having a while back. He also said that using the new version was the easier solution. Well... There's a lot of options available. Personally, I prefer something like blackbox for administrative logins. It's _very_ lightweight and (like all things should be), you pretty much build it from the ground up. What do you mean by building it from the ground up? What do I get when I type startx by default? It looks extremely simple, whatever it is, just a few simple windows in green borders on a rather irritating gray crosshatched background. Hmmm... I tend to view a wm about the same way I view win.exe (not in the disrespectful way, of course) in the respect that it's real purpose is to provide a pretty point and click menu system (which I'm not knocking). It's very usefull and palletable to some, usually not a necessity, and downright apalling to others. So when he said I'm looking for a wm that's not windowsy, I translated that to, I'm looking for a point/click menu system that's easy on the eyes, won't suck my processor dry, or populate ~ with a bunch of stuff I'm never going to use. I mentioned that blackbox is what I use for administrative logins because you have to build it from the ground up (not in any literal sense (ie, not from a wm-developers point of view), but from the wm-user's view (for instance, I find the default menu (the purpose of the wm) to be pretty bare for my taste and therefore needs to be customized (built up). Make sense? Hope I wasn't any more confusing. :) Mike ps. What you get by default is more like the basement, man! lol ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:26:28 +0100, Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I got the impression that KDE was the one that everyone used. Which window manager most closely approximates the GUI of traditional UNIX workstations? That would be twm. It is (I believe) the original X11 window manager, which is why it's still often used as the fail safe window manager. twm is an acronym for Tom's Window Manager, so named because the name of the principal author is Tom. Is it possible to install multiple X servers on the same machine so that one can fire up whichever one strikes one's fancy at a given time? Do you mean multiple X servers or multiple window managers? You were talking about window managers above. Not sure why you would want multiple X servers (unless you had two heads on the machine), but as to window managers, it's easy. You can even go to a tty, kill your running window manager and start a new one, with X running. All your X clients should still be there. Sandy ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 23:29:52 -0800 Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jacob S Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:53 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Different OS's? Marketshare On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:24:36 +0100 Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Fine. Except that distributors are barely doing anything more than repackaging someone else's work. They didn't write Linux. And how would you classify all of the Gnu and gpl software, or the Linux software that runs under the Linux compatability layer in FreeBSD? KDE, Nmap, Xfree86, x.org, mailman, exim, qmail and ezmlm are just a few that come to mind. Whoh there Jacob. What are you talking about? The only software that runs under the linux compatability layer is compiled linux binaries where the source isn't available. All the programs you mentioned above are source available, and they are all compiled to native FreeBSD binaries under FreeBSD. :-) I believe you missed the first half of the sentence, where I said Gnu and gpl software I was not trying to name software from any one specific category, but rather random software packages from any of the three categories. My point is that they were not written by FreeBSD, in the same way that the OP claims that Linux companies did not write Linux. They are merely repackaged for FreeBSD. Jacob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Sandy Rutherford writes: Do you mean multiple X servers or multiple window managers? I guess I mean window managers. There's only one X server required, right? Anyway, you answered my question. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Mike Hauber writes: Hmmm... I tend to view a wm about the same way I view win.exe (not in the disrespectful way, of course) in the respect that it's real purpose is to provide a pretty point and click menu system (which I'm not knocking). It's very usefull and palletable to some, usually not a necessity, and downright apalling to others. I just want a X window system that will give me some experience with UNIX GUIs. I don't actually intend to run one on my production server, but since this machine (the one I'm discussing now) will become a sort of test machine, I can afford to take more chances with it. I mentioned that blackbox is what I use for administrative logins because you have to build it from the ground up (not in any literal sense (ie, not from a wm-developers point of view), but from the wm-user's view (for instance, I find the default menu (the purpose of the wm) to be pretty bare for my taste and therefore needs to be customized (built up). Make sense? Hope I wasn't any more confusing. :) I suppose it will make more sense as I gather more experience. I haven't found any comprehensive and succinct documentation on X (the classic problem of documentation in computerland). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Mike Hauber writes: [...] Well... There's a lot of options available. Personally, I prefer something like blackbox for administrative logins. It's _very_ lightweight and (like all things should be), you pretty much build it from the ground up. What do you mean by building it from the ground up? What do I get when I type startx by default? It looks extremely simple, whatever it is, just a few simple windows in green borders on a rather irritating gray crosshatched background. Yeah, ugly as f... fleas on a dog, isn't it? I found fluxbox to be a very nice window manager. Very lightweight, useable, and stylish enough to make people's heads turn and ask you what you're running. And the coolest bit is... tabbed x-terms! Just like Mozilla and web pages. No doubt other managers have this feature, but once you've used it it's very hard to go back. Fluxbox installs straight from ports, no trouble at all. I seem to recall there being two versions, ancient and current. Make sure you get the current one. David ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kevin Kinsey Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 1:04 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Different OS's? Marketshare There are so many other WMs. It all depends on how you work. And, you can run some toolbars/docks, iconifying program, pretty much any X application, whatever, on just about anything -- tools, not policy after all. Greg Lehey, for example, states (~to the effect of~) I'm not into eye candy, and runs something rather simple (twm? fvwm?) that's all configured exactly the way he wants it across several monitors, at rather/very high resolution(s). He either has great eyesight, or has good glasses, I guess (and it's pure speculation and nothing personal at all) because he works surrounded by words, words, and more words, I suppose, whether it's code, mail, whatever. Hi Kevin, It is interesting you said that, I never heard that one before, but I am the same way. The VM that I use on my systems is tvm. It is fast and frankly all the wm does is make it so you don't have to remember to type firefox when you want to start firefox. Ted I think he posted to this thread yesterday (with an altered title) and stated he uses fvwm2. I'm pretty sure it's all on his website at lemis.com. Not much for eye candy is a personal preference that I can understand --- it's just not for me, I guess, at this stage in my development. But it would be cool to have 5 monitors :) Do you mean tvm? I don't find it. Maybe twm, or tvtwm? KDK ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Different OS's? Marketshare
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anthony Atkielski Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:59 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Different OS's? Marketshare Robert Kim, Wireless Internet / Wifi Hotspot Advisor writes: any idea how many major OS's are out there today and what market share they have? Fresh stats from my Web server: Windows . . . . . . . . . . 93.5118 % Macintosh . . . . . . . . . 4.7794 % Unknown . . . . . . . . . . 1.2731 % WebTV . . . . . . . . . . . 0.2028 % Linux . . . . . . . . . . . 0.1857 % Sun Solaris . . . . . . . . 0.0289 % FreeBSD . . . . . . . . . . 0.0182 % So, Anthony, What website is this exactly? Would you like the stats to show different? A few minutes with a script I can probably arrainge them to say whatever you want. ;-) If your site is targeted to Windows users I would expect it to have a high percentage of hits from Windows. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Different OS's? Marketshare
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Robert Kim, Wireless Internet / Wifi Hotspot Advisor Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 7:49 AM To: List Free Bsd Subject: Different OS's? Marketshare Different OS's? Marketshare... any idea how many major OS's are out there today and what market share they have? i think WIN 70% Lin 20% Apple 5% so who is the other 5 % ??? you realze the statisticians and economists hold that 2 percent is the break point... Break even for what? Oh I get it - break even to make a profit, right? Hmm I wonder who gets the profits from the sale of FreeBSD? Do you suppose they would be overly concerned with the 2% rule? This is one of the (many) problems with trying to hold a free OS up to a measuring stick designed for measuring commercial OSes. Note that Linux is doing much better against these measuring sticks because the Linux community, for all their loud proclamations about being GPL, has been steadily making Linux less and less distinguishable from the commercial OSs. When for example was the last time you saw a Linux enthusiast with a burned CDROM of an ISO he downloaded somewhere? The ones I see all have colorful cardboard boxes with penguins on them that they bought at Fry's. Consider that even if FreeBSD had 50% of all running computers - if those 50% of computers all belong to people that never buy software and only run freeware, the people that create these measuring sticks would bend over backwards to be sure those 50% were not counted. Not because they have anything against FreeBSD, but simply because the customers of the data these measuring sticks produce cannot sell anything to that 50% - thus they don't care if that 50% exists or not. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
I think he said break point not break even In a previous life, our stats guys in banking considered anything that had 2% share (although I think we used 3%, whatever) of a population was significant and worth breaking out for study. Glenn. - Original Message - From: Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Robert Kim, Wireless Internet / Wifi Hotspot Advisor [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List Free Bsd freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 7:30 AM Subject: RE: Different OS's? Marketshare -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Robert Kim, Wireless Internet / Wifi Hotspot Advisor Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 7:49 AM To: List Free Bsd Subject: Different OS's? Marketshare Different OS's? Marketshare... any idea how many major OS's are out there today and what market share they have? i think WIN 70% Lin 20% Apple 5% so who is the other 5 % ??? you realze the statisticians and economists hold that 2 percent is the break point... Break even for what? Oh I get it - break even to make a profit, right? Hmm I wonder who gets the profits from the sale of FreeBSD? Do you suppose they would be overly concerned with the 2% rule? This is one of the (many) problems with trying to hold a free OS up to a measuring stick designed for measuring commercial OSes. Note that Linux is doing much better against these measuring sticks because the Linux community, for all their loud proclamations about being GPL, has been steadily making Linux less and less distinguishable from the commercial OSs. When for example was the last time you saw a Linux enthusiast with a burned CDROM of an ISO he downloaded somewhere? The ones I see all have colorful cardboard boxes with penguins on them that they bought at Fry's. Consider that even if FreeBSD had 50% of all running computers - if those 50% of computers all belong to people that never buy software and only run freeware, the people that create these measuring sticks would bend over backwards to be sure those 50% were not counted. Not because they have anything against FreeBSD, but simply because the customers of the data these measuring sticks produce cannot sell anything to that 50% - thus they don't care if that 50% exists or not. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: What website is this exactly? My own. Would you like the stats to show different? I don't care what they show, as long as they are accurate. If your site is targeted to Windows users I would expect it to have a high percentage of hits from Windows. It's not targeted to any particular operating system; it appeals to a random cross-section of the Web population in terms of computers, operating systems, browsers, and so on. The stats mirror what I've seen for other sites of general interest. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: Note that Linux is doing much better against these measuring sticks because the Linux community, for all their loud proclamations about being GPL, has been steadily making Linux less and less distinguishable from the commercial OSs. When for example was the last time you saw a Linux enthusiast with a burned CDROM of an ISO he downloaded somewhere? The ones I see all have colorful cardboard boxes with penguins on them that they bought at Fry's. I've been looking at Linux these past few days (trying to decide whether to install FreeBSD or Linux on the machine I just freed up), and I've noticed the same thing. Free appears to be a near-total illusion when it comes to Linux. And hardly any distribution seems to require less than 6 or 7 CDs. And the Web sites I visit are extremely circumspect about exactly how to download free versions of their distributions, when they even offer such free copies. It all looks very much (too much) like Microsoft. There have been a few exceptions. The Slackware site looked pretty spartan compared to most of the others. I still might try to get FreeBSD running on the desktop instead, since I know FreeBSD better (but then again, perhaps I should be learning more about Linux as well?). That depends on getting past the boot problem and resolving another anomaly with the SCSI disks, though. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 04:30:35 -0800 Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Robert Kim, Wireless Internet / Wifi Hotspot Advisor Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 7:49 AM To: List Free Bsd Subject: Different OS's? Marketshare Different OS's? Marketshare... any idea how many major OS's are out there today and what market share they have? i think WIN 70% Lin 20% Apple 5% so who is the other 5 % ??? you realze the statisticians and economists hold that 2 percent is the break point... snip Note that Linux is doing much better against these measuring sticks because the Linux community, for all their loud proclamations about being GPL, has been steadily making Linux less and less distinguishable from the commercial OSs. When for example was the last time you saw a Linux enthusiast with a burned CDROM of an ISO he downloaded somewhere? The ones I see all have colorful cardboard boxes with penguins on them that they bought at Fry's. You must be looking at a different Linux community than the one I'm familiar with. I thought boxed sets of Linux had gone out of retail stores years ago. Well, except maybe for a couple of Redhat choices. I haven't even had reason to look for them. I'm having too much fun with downloading versions and upgrading over the internet - yes, for free. Linspire and Redhat tend to be Windows-like, in hiding their free releases or not releasing them until the next version comes out, etc., but they're generally considered the exception in the Linux community. Some of our webservers at work are FreeBSD, others are Debian Linux. Don't shoot me, but I'm still using Debian on my desktop, too. If I had to start paying for Linux releases and security patches, I would be using FreeBSD faster than Windoze users can type format c:. I understand there's some competition between FreeBSD and Linux, but Linux doesn't have to be considered evil just because they're not FreeBSD fans. Jacob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:21:06 +0100 Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ted Mittelstaedt writes: Note that Linux is doing much better against these measuring sticks because the Linux community, for all their loud proclamations about being GPL, has been steadily making Linux less and less distinguishable from the commercial OSs. When for example was the last time you saw a Linux enthusiast with a burned CDROM of an ISO he downloaded somewhere? The ones I see all have colorful cardboard boxes with penguins on them that they bought at Fry's. I've been looking at Linux these past few days (trying to decide whether to install FreeBSD or Linux on the machine I just freed up), and I've noticed the same thing. Free appears to be a near-total illusion when it comes to Linux. And hardly any distribution seems to require less than 6 or 7 CDs. And the Web sites I visit are extremely circumspect about exactly how to download free versions of their distributions, when they even offer such free copies. It all looks very much (too much) like Microsoft. You obviously didn't look at Debian then. The soon-to-be-released Sarge version is currently 14cds, but you only need to download a 35MB or 110MB installation cd to get started. The rest of the programs are downloaded from mirrors as needed. In fact, the Debian download page _discourages_ people from downloading all 14 cds. The principles behind Debian's apt-get is similar to FreeBSD's ports and portupgrade - but the organization scheme is different. As to which will suit your purposes better; why not do a dual boot between Linux and FreeBSD? They can co-exist happily. HTH HAND, Jacob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Jacob S writes: You must be looking at a different Linux community than the one I'm familiar with. I thought boxed sets of Linux had gone out of retail stores years ago. I bought a copy of Mandrake Linux in a retail store yesterday. I saw SuSE in the store, too. Computer stores have a wider choice. I'm having too much fun with downloading versions and upgrading over the internet - yes, for free. That says a lot about the type of user you are. Linspire and Redhat tend to be Windows-like, in hiding their free releases or not releasing them until the next version comes out, etc., but they're generally considered the exception in the Linux community. I've looked at a fair number of Linux Web sites over the past few days. Almost all of them seemed to be trying to sell something. It was often extremely hard to find links pointing to downloadable free versions of anything. I understand there's some competition between FreeBSD and Linux, but Linux doesn't have to be considered evil just because they're not FreeBSD fans. It's not evil to sell software. But it's not free software, either. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Anthony Atkielski wrote: There have been a few exceptions. The Slackware site looked pretty spartan compared to most of the others. I was converted to FreeBSD from Slackware. If you want to go Linux and maintain the freedom of configuration you have with FreeBSD (ie, just edit the text file, which is in a sensable spot) and get ...whatever it is you hope to get from linux - don't get me wrong, Linux has a lot to offer, I just can't personally think of anything it offers above and beyond FreeBSD - Slackware would be the way to go in my opinion. But that's holy war territory now, so I'll leave you with this: I switched to FreeBSD from Slackware because of the ports/package system. They make software installation so easy a Microsoft user could do it if they pay attention. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Laurence Sanford writes: I was converted to FreeBSD from Slackware. If you want to go Linux and maintain the freedom of configuration you have with FreeBSD (ie, just edit the text file, which is in a sensable spot) and get ...whatever it is you hope to get from linux - don't get me wrong, Linux has a lot to offer, I just can't personally think of anything it offers above and beyond FreeBSD - Slackware would be the way to go in my opinion. I'm mainly debating whether or not some direct experience with Linux would or would not be professionally useful to me. Were it not for that, FreeBSD would be the obvious choice. As it is, FreeBSD will probably be the desktop I end up running, in part because I know it better than Linux, in part because I can actually get it to install and boot (unlike Mandrake, which just left me dead in the water 30 seconds after booting and showing a pretty startup screen), and in part because I like to know what I'm installing instead of just installing a black box. However, an obstacle is setting up an X environment, which I don't know much about, and which I don't have unlimited time to fool around with. Some of the Linux distributions claim to be plug and play (although I have serious doubts about this). Also, on my old hardware, I suspect that hardly anything could be plug and play--there are just too many weirdnesses on this HP Vectra. But that's holy war territory now, so I'll leave you with this: I switched to FreeBSD from Slackware because of the ports/package system. They make software installation so easy a Microsoft user could do it if they pay attention. Does that include X and KDE? I'm getting wild SCSI errors on FreeBSD trying to install stuff, and I don't really know what that means, but it doesn't appear to be corrupting anything, and it seems to be installing software. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:49:55 +0100 Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jacob S writes: You must be looking at a different Linux community than the one I'm familiar with. I thought boxed sets of Linux had gone out of retail stores years ago. I bought a copy of Mandrake Linux in a retail store yesterday. I saw SuSE in the store, too. Computer stores have a wider choice. Good. I'm glad to see the average Windows user looking around the computer store still gets to see an alternative once in a while. I'm having too much fun with downloading versions and upgrading over the internet - yes, for free. That says a lot about the type of user you are. True, but I still see a lot of new users on Linux e-mail lists that are downloading it for free. Linspire and Redhat tend to be Windows-like, in hiding their free releases or not releasing them until the next version comes out, etc., but they're generally considered the exception in the Linux community. I've looked at a fair number of Linux Web sites over the past few days. Almost all of them seemed to be trying to sell something. It was often extremely hard to find links pointing to downloadable free versions of anything. So, where on www.debian.org do you see them trying to sell something? I understand there's some competition between FreeBSD and Linux, but Linux doesn't have to be considered evil just because they're not FreeBSD fans. It's not evil to sell software. But it's not free software, either. But Linux was compared to Microsoft, which would indicate that some consider it to be giving in to evil influences. Or we could get into the whole free-as-in-speech or free-as-in-food debate. There is a reason that you can buy legal copies of Linspire on E-bay for $3/each. But I definitely think it's better when it's free-as-in-food, too. Jacob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Jacob S writes: You obviously didn't look at Debian then. Yes, I did. As to which will suit your purposes better; why not do a dual boot between Linux and FreeBSD? They can co-exist happily. I can't even successfully install a single OS on this machine, much less two. I tried to install Mandrake an hour ago, and not only did it freeze, but it did something that prevents my CD-ROM from being visible to the FreeBSD install. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Jacob S writes: Good. I'm glad to see the average Windows user looking around the computer store still gets to see an alternative once in a while. I'm pretty sure I've seen Mandrake, SuSE, RedHat, Fedora, and a couple of other Linux versions in computer stores. A few years ago, I bought my first copy of FreeBSD (4.3) in a computer store. Now I can't find FreeBSD anywhere; I had to burn my own CD from a download to install 5.3. So, where on www.debian.org do you see them trying to sell something? On the first page, with the ad for XS4ALL. If you click on Getting Debian, the first option given is purchase of the CDs. But Linux was compared to Microsoft, which would indicate that some consider it to be giving in to evil influences. I don't think the trend towards commercialism is healthy, noble, or altruistic, although it's understandable. But it's a bit hypocritical of Linux fans to claim disdain for the Microsoft-style business model when they are following precisely in Microsoft's footsteps themselves. Of course, this was inevitable, but the Linux crowd never understood that. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Wednesday 23 February 2005 01:28 pm, you wrote: I can't even successfully install a single OS on this machine, much less two. What kind of problems are you having with FreeBSD? There was a non-specific mention of errors regarding your hard drive, but said everything was working ok. I tried to install Mandrake an hour ago, and not only did it freeze, but it did something that prevents my CD-ROM from being visible to the FreeBSD install. Whoa... I installed Mandrake 9 when it released and it did the same thing. I thought my cd burner had fried. When I got another one, it worked fine for both. I kept the fried one for a while and stuck it in another box I was putting together (just to make sure it was fried before throwing it away) and there was nothing wrong with it. Glad to see it wasn't just in my head. lol (I like the drake, though... It's what I usually recommend for people who are wanting to try something other than windows and don't have the knowledge (desire to learn) necessary to build up a system of their own). Mike ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:46:47 +0100 Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jacob S writes: Good. I'm glad to see the average Windows user looking around the computer store still gets to see an alternative once in a while. I'm pretty sure I've seen Mandrake, SuSE, RedHat, Fedora, and a couple of other Linux versions in computer stores. A few years ago, I bought my first copy of FreeBSD (4.3) in a computer store. Now I can't find FreeBSD anywhere; I had to burn my own CD from a download to install 5.3. So, FreeBSD is vulnerable to this same hypocrasy; where it is sold in stores but still hailed as a free OS? So, where on www.debian.org do you see them trying to sell something? On the first page, with the ad for XS4ALL. If you click on Getting Debian, the first option given is purchase of the CDs. Except that's simply listing the ways you can get Debian. If you look at the list you will notice there is not a single Debian owned organization on there selling cds. They provide links to people that do for your convenience. They do this as a service - without getting any kind of reimbursement from the vendors for listing them on the Debian website. For more details see these pages on the Debian site: http://www.debian.org/CD/vendors/info http://www.debian.org/CD/vendors/adding If that makes Debian non-free, then FreeBSD is non-free too (or used to be) - when you purchased version 4.3 from a computer store. But Linux was compared to Microsoft, which would indicate that some consider it to be giving in to evil influences. I don't think the trend towards commercialism is healthy, noble, or altruistic, although it's understandable. But it's a bit hypocritical of Linux fans to claim disdain for the Microsoft-style business model when they are following precisely in Microsoft's footsteps themselves. Of course, this was inevitable, but the Linux crowd never understood that. Except you haven't proven that Debian has a trend towards commercialism. My point in all of this is that your generalizations of Linux would be about like Linux users saying all of the BSDs are the same. And, by the way, if you look at www.debian.org and www.freebsd.org, you will notice that they are both owned by non-profit organizations. That's totally different from a Microsoft-style business model. HAND, Jacob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Feb 23, 2005, at 12:23 PM, Jacob S wrote: On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:46:47 +0100 Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jacob S writes: Good. I'm glad to see the average Windows user looking around the computer store still gets to see an alternative once in a while. I'm pretty sure I've seen Mandrake, SuSE, RedHat, Fedora, and a couple of other Linux versions in computer stores. A few years ago, I bought my first copy of FreeBSD (4.3) in a computer store. Now I can't find FreeBSD anywhere; I had to burn my own CD from a download to install 5.3. So, FreeBSD is vulnerable to this same hypocrasy; where it is sold in stores but still hailed as a free OS? I think you are misunderstanding what free means. Though I think RMS is a closet-communist and dislike the GPL, his description of Free is pretty good. Don't think free as in Free Beer... Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Mike Hauber writes: What kind of problems are you having with FreeBSD? There was a non-specific mention of errors regarding your hard drive, but said everything was working ok. I mentioned the main error in a separate thread: After successfully installing the OS, I simply cannot persuade the machine to boot from the hard disk. It just blanks the screen and stops. It must be booting _something_, because it normally puts up an error message if it cannot find the boot information it expects. So I presume it's passing control to garbage read from the disk and this is halting the system silently. If I boot from floppy, no problem. And if I boot from the install floppy and then enter the loader, unload the kernel, switch the current device to my boot disk (the hard disk), and boot from the loader, it comes up instantly. So there is some part of the boot process that's not working. I installed FreeBSD with a standard MBR on both disks, and I set the first disk to bootable, but this doesn't seem to help, although I'm still trying. The other problem I have is SCSI errors that generate massive streams of console error messages, although they don't appear to be errors that cause data loss. I got these while moving ports onto my machine. Now that I think about it, I think it might be a conflict with an old ISDN card that is still mounted in the machine ... hmm. Anyway, that's secondary. Whoa... I installed Mandrake 9 when it released and it did the same thing. I thought my cd burner had fried. When I got another one, it worked fine for both. I fixed this, somehow. I turned on my SCSI devices (a CD burner, a scanner, and a tape drive), and then FreeBSD saw the IDE CD-ROM drive. Go figure. Actually, it seemed to see the CD-ROM at boot, but it wouldn't see it when it asked for install media. It sees it after boot even with the SCSI devices turned off. Very mysterious. I'm sure there are no hardware problems on this machine; it has been running flawlessly for eight years. So anything that doesn't work is software. (I like the drake, though... It's what I usually recommend for people who are wanting to try something other than windows and don't have the knowledge (desire to learn) necessary to build up a system of their own). I'm still quite ambivalent about it. I keep wondering if Linux is different enough and useful enough to be worth dedicating this machine to it ... or if I should just continue with FreeBSD and install X on the machine (and KDE, probably, since it seems to be popular, although I welcome suggestions). Which window manager is the closest to classic UNIX window managers (as opposed to wannabe Windows products)? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Jacob S writes: So, FreeBSD is vulnerable to this same hypocrasy; where it is sold in stores but still hailed as a free OS? The FreeBSD was at an unbeatable price--I think it was only $10 or so, just a bit more than the packaging cost. That's not the case for Linux, which I see going for prices well in excess of $100 ... perilously close to the price of an OEM copy of Windows. But the thing that disturbs me is that all of Windows was actually written by Microsoft or licensed from someone else who wrote it, whereas all of Linux (more or less) was written for free. So how can Linux distributors get away with charging $200 for software if Microsoft is charging only slightly more? The Linux crowd certainly didn't pay anyone to develop any of the software they're selling. Except that's simply listing the ways you can get Debian. But they list the money way first, like every other site. If that makes Debian non-free, then FreeBSD is non-free too (or used to be) - when you purchased version 4.3 from a computer store. True. But it was much more reasonably priced than Linux, and it was a very good buy in consequence. Except you haven't proven that Debian has a trend towards commercialism. Fine. Wait and see. My point in all of this is that your generalizations of Linux would be about like Linux users saying all of the BSDs are the same. Well, come to think of it ... it can be hard to tell the BSDs apart. And, by the way, if you look at www.debian.org and www.freebsd.org, you will notice that they are both owned by non-profit organizations. That's totally different from a Microsoft-style business model. Some of the wealthiest organizations in the world are non-profit. All that means is that they make sure they have no money left over after expenses (sometimes by paying high salaries to their employees). There's nothing magic or high-minded about non-profit organizations. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:32:50 -0700 Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 23, 2005, at 12:23 PM, Jacob S wrote: On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:46:47 +0100 Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jacob S writes: Good. I'm glad to see the average Windows user looking around the computer store still gets to see an alternative once in a while. I'm pretty sure I've seen Mandrake, SuSE, RedHat, Fedora, and a couple of other Linux versions in computer stores. A few years ago, I bought my first copy of FreeBSD (4.3) in a computer store. Now I can't find FreeBSD anywhere; I had to burn my own CD from a download to install 5.3. So, FreeBSD is vulnerable to this same hypocrasy; where it is sold in stores but still hailed as a free OS? I think you are misunderstanding what free means. Though I think RMS is a closet-communist and dislike the GPL, his description of Free is pretty good. Don't think free as in Free Beer... I agree. And if you read my previous e-mails you will see I briefly mention the free-as-in-food and free-as-in-speech argument. On the other hand, Anthony appears to be arguing that it's hypocritical for Linux users to call Linux free when they really mean free-as-in-speech. Jacob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Feb 23, 2005, at 12:32 PM, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: On Feb 23, 2005, at 12:23 PM, Jacob S wrote: On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:46:47 +0100 Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jacob S writes: Good. I'm glad to see the average Windows user looking around the computer store still gets to see an alternative once in a while. I'm pretty sure I've seen Mandrake, SuSE, RedHat, Fedora, and a couple of other Linux versions in computer stores. A few years ago, I bought my first copy of FreeBSD (4.3) in a computer store. Now I can't find FreeBSD anywhere; I had to burn my own CD from a download to install 5.3. So, FreeBSD is vulnerable to this same hypocrasy; where it is sold in stores but still hailed as a free OS? I think you are misunderstanding what free means. Though I think RMS is a closet-communist and dislike the GPL, his description of Free is pretty good. Don't think free as in Free Beer... As a follow up http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/free-sw.html I am not saying I agree or disagree with everything written, but it gives a good idea of what Free means as in Free Software. Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Wednesday 23 February 2005 12:46 pm, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Jacob S writes: Good. I'm glad to see the average Windows user looking around the computer store still gets to see an alternative once in a while. I'm pretty sure I've seen Mandrake, SuSE, RedHat, Fedora, and a couple of other Linux versions in computer stores. A few years ago, I bought my first copy of FreeBSD (4.3) in a computer store. Now I can't find FreeBSD anywhere; I had to burn my own CD from a download to install 5.3. You can still find FreeBSD at Fry's Electronics and MicroCenter. I don't know if CompUSA still carries it. I have mixed feelings about FreeBSD 5.0-5.2.1 being sold in the retail market. So, where on www.debian.org do you see them trying to sell something? On the first page, with the ad for XS4ALL. If you click on Getting Debian, the first option given is purchase of the CDs. But Linux was compared to Microsoft, which would indicate that some consider it to be giving in to evil influences. I don't think the trend towards commercialism is healthy, noble, or altruistic, although it's understandable. But it's a bit hypocritical of Linux fans to claim disdain for the Microsoft-style business model when they are following precisely in Microsoft's footsteps themselves. Of course, this was inevitable, but the Linux crowd never understood that. This oversimplification is so flawed that I'm not sure how to best respond... ...but I'll try:;-) First, Microsoft is a monopoly that has been found, in court, to have used unethical business practices. Second, the motivation behind the creation of Windows focused more on a marketing plan than good design principles (you know: security and stuff). I see no similarity between Microsoft and Open Source OS vendors on either of these points. Third, the beauty of capitalism is that good can come from profit motive. (See: Adam Smith's invisible hand.) Let's face it, without commercialism, Linux development would not have benefited from the likes of IBM or HP. Likewise, without commercialism, there would be very few, if any, *BSD or Linux developers performing open source development for a living. The money has to come from somewhere. Fourth, I appreciate all the hard work that goes into developing and packaging an operating system and its related applications. I am happy to pay for the convenience of an operating system on a DVD. It's only fair that the vendor be able to recover cost. If earning a little profit motivates them to continue providing a great service, all the better. Andrew Gould ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Does that include X and KDE? I'm getting wild SCSI errors on FreeBSD trying to install stuff, and I don't really know what that means, but it doesn't appear to be corrupting anything, and it seems to be installing software. Well, I don't use KDE because I don't particularly like heavyweight software unless I need it, although it has been several years since I looked at either that or Gnome, and I have seriously considered several times recently installing both of them to see what they've been up to. As for X, it should be quite painless with the possible exception of getting the config (XF86Config) right - the first time I did it, it caused me much swearing and gnashing of teeth, but here recently it's gotten so painless that I don't really remember it very well. That could be because it's gotten much easier, or because I've gotten used to it, the truth probly landing somewhere in the middle. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Andrew L. Gould writes: You can still find FreeBSD at Fry's Electronics and MicroCenter. I don't know if CompUSA still carries it. I have mixed feelings about FreeBSD 5.0-5.2.1 being sold in the retail market. How so? Seems like it would be a good idea to me. I see that one can still order 5.3 over the Internet. Since I burned my own CDs I don't necessarily need it (although a more permanent CD would be nice), but if I did buy it it would be mostly to support the project (provided that the project got the money). I see no similarity between Microsoft and Open Source OS vendors on either of these points. Perhaps the similarities will become more obvious with time. Let's face it, without commercialism, Linux development would not have benefited from the likes of IBM or HP. Likewise, without commercialism, there would be very few, if any, *BSD or Linux developers performing open source development for a living. The money has to come from somewhere. True. It's virtually inevitable. Fourth, I appreciate all the hard work that goes into developing and packaging an operating system and its related applications. I am happy to pay for the convenience of an operating system on a DVD. It's only fair that the vendor be able to recover cost. If earning a little profit motivates them to continue providing a great service, all the better. Fine. Except that distributors are barely doing anything more than repackaging someone else's work. They didn't write Linux. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Laurence Sanford writes: Well, I don't use KDE because I don't particularly like heavyweight software unless I need it ... Heavyweight in the sense of resources required, or complexity, or what? I got the impression that KDE was the one that everyone used. Which window manager most closely approximates the GUI of traditional UNIX workstations? Is it possible to install multiple X servers on the same machine so that one can fire up whichever one strikes one's fancy at a given time? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:39:08 +0100 Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jacob S writes: So, FreeBSD is vulnerable to this same hypocrasy; where it is sold in stores but still hailed as a free OS? The FreeBSD was at an unbeatable price--I think it was only $10 or so, just a bit more than the packaging cost. That's not the case for Linux, which I see going for prices well in excess of $100 ... perilously close to the price of an OEM copy of Windows. You're confusing the boxed sets of Linux distributions with simply buying cds. Debian does not do boxed sets. There is not anything that prevents retailers from still selling the cd sets for cheap prices. There are still some retailers that sell just the minimal cd sets, it is just unfortunate that there are not any big chains doing this (that I know of). Boxed sets, however, usually come with a book and support- something that is worth considerably more than a few reusable plastic coasters. But the thing that disturbs me is that all of Windows was actually written by Microsoft or licensed from someone else who wrote it, whereas all of Linux (more or less) was written for free. So how can Linux distributors get away with charging $200 for software if Microsoft is charging only slightly more? The Linux crowd certainly didn't pay anyone to develop any of the software they're selling. Please see Chad's e-mail about the difference between free-as-in-speech and free-as-in-food. It doesn't matter how much they charge if it is still licensed as free-as-in-speech - because you or I could buy a copy, burn our own copies of it and sell it $10 cheaper than them and still be legal. Except that's simply listing the ways you can get Debian. But they list the money way first, like every other site. Yep, and FreeBSD lists the money way before the download way, too. See http://www.freebsd.org/where.html. Your point? Debian does not get paid for listing cd vendors, which I'm sure is the same way with FreeBSD. If that makes Debian non-free, then FreeBSD is non-free too (or used to be) - when you purchased version 4.3 from a computer store. True. But it was much more reasonably priced than Linux, and it was a very good buy in consequence. You're generalizing again - using other Linux distributions' boxed-set prices to prove that Debian is hypocritical. Please see http://www.easylinuxcds.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=49osCsid=62927e80e86dcc3defbb63e36a224a3d where they sell Debian (and other distributions of Linux) and FreeBSD for the same price per cd. Or you could look at www.freebsdmall.com and www.bsdmall.com where the bsd prices are closer to $10 per cd, instead of the $2 - 3 per cd price for Linux from www.linuxmall.com. Except you haven't proven that Debian has a trend towards commercialism. Fine. Wait and see. I'd rather not wait. Why let good software go down the drain? :-) snip And, by the way, if you look at www.debian.org and www.freebsd.org, you will notice that they are both owned by non-profit organizations. That's totally different from a Microsoft-style business model. Some of the wealthiest organizations in the world are non-profit. All that means is that they make sure they have no money left over after expenses (sometimes by paying high salaries to their employees). There's nothing magic or high-minded about non-profit organizations. But just because some non-profit organizations are wealthy does not prove that Debian is 1) wealthy or 2) hypocritical. Jacob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Laurence Sanford writes: Well, I don't use KDE because I don't particularly like heavyweight software unless I need it ... Heavyweight in the sense of resources required, or complexity, or what? I got the impression that KDE was the one that everyone used. Which window manager most closely approximates the GUI of traditional UNIX workstations? Is it possible to install multiple X servers on the same machine so that one can fire up whichever one strikes one's fancy at a given time? In the sense of resource usage is what I mean when I say heavy weight. While KDE is quite popular, there are probly (litterally) hundreds of window managers that will run under X, so saying Everyone uses N window manager is going to be patently false. You'll only need one X server - what you're looking at having multiple versions of is the window manager. That's what runs over top of X to provide the style. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:24:36 +0100 Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew L. Gould writes: snip Fourth, I appreciate all the hard work that goes into developing and packaging an operating system and its related applications. I am happy to pay for the convenience of an operating system on a DVD. It's only fair that the vendor be able to recover cost. If earning a little profit motivates them to continue providing a great service, all the better. Fine. Except that distributors are barely doing anything more than repackaging someone else's work. They didn't write Linux. And how would you classify all of the Gnu and gpl software, or the Linux software that runs under the Linux compatability layer in FreeBSD? KDE, Nmap, Xfree86, x.org, mailman, exim, qmail and ezmlm are just a few that come to mind. Sorry, but I think you need to look under the hood better at Linux before you say it's just being repackaged. Linux distributions may not write their own kernels, but they do all help with development of the Linux kernel. And there are at least 4 different methods of installing packages that I can think of, from different distributions (Slackware's tar.gz, Redhat's .rpm, Debian's .deb and Gentoo's ebuild). Jacob ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Wednesday 23 February 2005 02:24 pm, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Andrew L. Gould writes: You can still find FreeBSD at Fry's Electronics and MicroCenter. I don't know if CompUSA still carries it. I have mixed feelings about FreeBSD 5.0-5.2.1 being sold in the retail market. How so? Seems like it would be a good idea to me. 5.0-5.2.1 weren't labelled STABLE. I worry about the uninformed assuming they're buying a STABLE version. I see that one can still order 5.3 over the Internet. Since I burned my own CDs I don't necessarily need it (although a more permanent CD would be nice), but if I did buy it it would be mostly to support the project (provided that the project got the money). I see no similarity between Microsoft and Open Source OS vendors on either of these points. Perhaps the similarities will become more obvious with time. Perhaps you should apply for a position at Microsoft. After all, FUD is a Microsoft tactic. Let's face it, without commercialism, Linux development would not have benefited from the likes of IBM or HP. Likewise, without commercialism, there would be very few, if any, *BSD or Linux developers performing open source development for a living. The money has to come from somewhere. True. It's virtually inevitable. No. Open Source projects could continue developing at the slow rate allowed by developers' spare time. _Fortunately_, that is not necessary. Fourth, I appreciate all the hard work that goes into developing and packaging an operating system and its related applications. I am happy to pay for the convenience of an operating system on a DVD. It's only fair that the vendor be able to recover cost. If earning a little profit motivates them to continue providing a great service, all the better. Fine. Except that distributors are barely doing anything more than repackaging someone else's work. They didn't write Linux. The distros (SUSE, for example) do quite of bit of distro-specific development (YAST, for example) and shared development (reiserfs, for example). They also fund Linux development by hiring Linux kernel and application developers. As for the vendors that just sell CD's, the prices vary with what the market will pay. There are plenty of very inexpensive sources for the *BSD or Linux CD's; so there's no excuse for anyone to pay too much. It's easy to be cynical; but you'll be much happier if you give reality a chance. Andrew Gould ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Anthony Atkielski wrote: I'm still quite ambivalent about it. I keep wondering if Linux is different enough and useful enough to be worth dedicating this machine to it ... or if I should just continue with FreeBSD and install X on the machine (and KDE, probably, since it seems to be popular, although I welcome suggestions). Which window manager is the closest to classic UNIX window managers (as opposed to wannabe Windows products)? Well, you can do a little research yourself (I'm sure you will at some point, anyway): (Hmm, a store? Browse screenshots and descriptions): http://xwinman.org/ (A comparison article, 5 wm's and the XFCE environment): http://rootprompt.org/article.php3?article=8346 IIRC, there's also a rather large thread on bsdforums.org where people are showing off their desktops. You could also get a look-see there... As for my own experience, I can't really answer your question, because classic UNIX window managers is somewhat meaningless to me as a newbie. Part of Free Software is freedom of choice as you well know. There are so many choices out there that your head can spin while looking. My experience: 1. BlackBox. Small, light, fast. To me, rather mouse oriented. Collapsing menus. A small app bar at the top, but no default icon support, etc. 2. FluxBox. BlackBox with more themes*. 3. Enlightenment. Larger then bb/fb. I didn't stick with it long at all, so I can't say much else. 4. XFCE. I liked it ... BSD licensed (IIRC), no larger than Enlightenment, certainly. One toolbar in default install, a few default tools. Icons on the toolbar (can't remember if you can put 'em on the desktop in default install). 5. GNOME. On my desktop now ... why? Curiosity, I guess. Lots of tools, takes lots of muscle. Probably a windows wannabe as you say (but it crashes less ... ;-). I wouldn't put a new KDE or GNOME on a very old box, but maybe I don't know how to go about that very well (I know there is a gnome-lite, and there is probably a corresponding light KDE). It seems a tad slow ATM, but this box runs as gateway/firewall, SMTP/POP3, http (development server), DNS, rsyncd, samba on the office network, plus currently 9 windows in Mozilla, 23 in Opera, mail client, Dictionary app, this compose window, 5-6 terminals running SSH to 3 servers across 4 desktops, the GIMP with a rather big photo open, and a small word processor document.) There are so many other WMs. It all depends on how you work. And, you can run some toolbars/docks, iconifying program, pretty much any X application, whatever, on just about anything -- tools, not policy after all. Greg Lehey, for example, states (~to the effect of~) I'm not into eye candy, and runs something rather simple (twm? fvwm?) that's all configured exactly the way he wants it across several monitors, at rather/very high resolution(s). He either has great eyesight, or has good glasses, I guess (and it's pure speculation and nothing personal at all) because he works surrounded by words, words, and more words, I suppose, whether it's code, mail, whatever. I'm different, I was a M$ user for quite a while, and apart from the differences in the toolbar at the bottom and the fact that I have top and right-side toolbars also, I'm not sure my desktop looks much different than it did back on Win98. (Well, on 10 items on this desktop --- but the toolbars [32 launchers now] make up for it.) Except, it never turns blue and give me ominous white letters, nor does it ever lockup without leaving me some option besides a power cycle. Kevin Kinsey *I'm sure there are other things, and my descriptions are at best those of the uninitiated. My apologies to the devoted, I do not aim to offend. That would extend to all users of $YOUR_WM_HERE ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Wednesday 23 February 2005 02:34 pm, Anthony Atkielski wrote: Mike Hauber writes: What kind of problems are you having with FreeBSD? There was a non-specific mention of errors regarding your hard drive, but said everything was working ok. I mentioned the main error in a separate thread: After successfully installing the OS, I simply cannot persuade the machine to boot from the hard disk. It just blanks the screen and stops. It must be booting _something_, because it normally puts up an error message if it cannot find the boot information it expects. So I presume it's passing control to garbage read from the disk and this is halting the system silently. If I boot from floppy, no problem. And if I boot from the install floppy and then enter the loader, unload the kernel, switch the current device to my boot disk (the hard disk), and boot from the loader, it comes up instantly. So there is some part of the boot process that's not working. I installed FreeBSD with a standard MBR on both disks, and I set the first disk to bootable, but this doesn't seem to help, although I'm still trying. The other problem I have is SCSI errors that generate massive streams of console error messages, although they don't appear to be errors that cause data loss. I got these while moving ports onto my machine. Now that I think about it, I think it might be a conflict with an old ISDN card that is still mounted in the machine ... hmm. Anyway, that's secondary. I'm sure there are no hardware problems on this machine; it has been running flawlessly for eight years. So anything that doesn't work is software. Found the thread... Have you tried installing an older version? (4.4, for example?) I've had a lot of issues trying to install FreeBSD =4.9 on pre 586s, but mostly they were setup for a quick showtell (latest greatest wasn't really necessary). Not saying that you should settle for an older version, but it may help in discovering what the issues are. (I like the drake, though... It's what I usually recommend for people who are wanting to try something other than windows and don't have the knowledge (desire to learn) necessary to build up a system of their own). I'm still quite ambivalent about it. I keep wondering if Linux is different enough and useful enough to be worth dedicating this machine to it ... or if I should just continue with FreeBSD and install X on the machine (and KDE, probably, since it seems to be popular, although I welcome suggestions). I came to FreeBSD first after deciding that I worked too hard to spend any more money on an OS I couldn't depend on (kinda like I won't spend money on certain types of video games because they ultimately do nothing but parse me off :) ). Frustrated, I bounced back and forth between anything I could get my hands on (legally, of course). I have an entire CD book filled with Linuses that I've tried, but ultimately settled with the BSDs. Some of the Linuses are great, but I've come to appreciate the BSDs more than anything else. Because of this, I make my investments in things that I actually appreciate. I only suggest Mandrake to people just coming out of windows as to to help minimize the frustrations that I went through (I guess I'm a symphathiser of sorts, but not so much that I'm willing to hold their hand :) ). If someone is comfortable enough that they'll actually use the man command, ask intelligent questions, and appreciate the documentation that's out there (ie, read), then I definately suggest a BSD. (ie, if you can install FreeBSD and setup X, then why bother with Mandrake?) Not that it's a bad OS, just that I've found that people who know how/where to learn will come to appreciate the BSDs over the other options. Which window manager is the closest to classic UNIX window managers (as opposed to wannabe Windows products)? Well... There's a lot of options available. Personally, I prefer something like blackbox for administrative logins. It's _very_ lightweight and (like all things should be), you pretty much build it from the ground up. Mike ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Anthony Atkielski wrote: Laurence Sanford writes: Well, I don't use KDE because I don't particularly like heavyweight software unless I need it ... Heavyweight in the sense of resources required, or complexity, or what? I got the impression that KDE was the one that everyone used. Hmm, now a different thread, perhaps? Different WM's marketshare? It's pretty much to each his own out here, I'd say. (see my earlier). Which window manager most closely approximates the GUI of traditional UNIX workstations? Well, once again, I dunno. I will mention that AfterStep is NextStep's successor, I think. Is it possible to install multiple X servers on the same machine so that one can fire up whichever one strikes one's fancy at a given time? I don't see why not, although it'd probably be more common to simply kill one wm session and start another to save resources. Maybe it's possible. I don't know if, since you've just one DISPLAY (in theory, anyhow) you would configure it. Hmm, just tested. No can do, because just one DISPLAY. Maybe some X guru has a solution. GNOME on ttyv1, fluxbox on ttyv2, term on ttyv3 etc., etc Would be pretty cool. Now, if you have two video cards Kevin Kinsey ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Is it possible to install multiple X servers on the same machine so that one can fire up whichever one strikes one's fancy at a given time? I don't see why not, although it'd probably be more common to simply kill one wm session and start another to save resources. Maybe it's possible. I don't know if, since you've just one DISPLAY (in theory, anyhow) you would configure it. Hmm, just tested. No can do, because just one DISPLAY. Maybe some X guru has a solution. GNOME on ttyv1, fluxbox on ttyv2, term on ttyv3 etc., etc Would be pretty cool. This is certainly possible. You need to start X via something other than startx as you must manually set DISPLAY vars. I have run two X servers on my machine many times - one running a local desktop environment and the other running a WM from a remote box over SSH (for no particular reason other than that it's fun). -- PGP: http://www.darklogik.org/pub/pgp/pgp.txt B776 43DC 8A5D EAF9 2126 9A67 A7DA 390F DEFF 9DD1 pgp8ro58RVHFP.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
markzero wrote: Is it possible to install multiple X servers on the same machine so that one can fire up whichever one strikes one's fancy at a given time? I don't see why not, although it'd probably be more common to simply kill one wm session and start another to save resources. Maybe it's possible. I don't know if, since you've just one DISPLAY (in theory, anyhow) you would configure it. Hmm, just tested. No can do, because just one DISPLAY. Maybe some X guru has a solution. GNOME on ttyv1, fluxbox on ttyv2, term on ttyv3 etc., etc Would be pretty cool. This is certainly possible. You need to start X via something other than startx as you must manually set DISPLAY vars. I have run two X servers on my machine many times - one running a local desktop environment and the other running a WM from a remote box over SSH (for no particular reason other than that it's fun). I figured there was a way. Most times there is. I was thinking two Xservers, one monitor. CTL-ALT-F2 is Desktop B, CTL-ALT-F3 is desktop C, etc. How 'bout that? Of course, I really have no idea *why*, either; but it does at least sound fun. Kevin Kinsey ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
This is certainly possible. You need to start X via something other than startx as you must manually set DISPLAY vars. I have run two X servers on my machine many times - one running a local desktop environment and the other running a WM from a remote box over SSH (for no particular reason other than that it's fun). I figured there was a way. Most times there is. I was thinking two Xservers, one monitor. CTL-ALT-F2 is Desktop B, CTL-ALT-F3 is desktop C, etc. How 'bout that? Of course, I really have no idea *why*, either; but it does at least sound fun. Kevin Kinsey Yes, that's it, except they were on F7 and F8... :) Mark -- PGP: http://www.darklogik.org/pub/pgp/pgp.txt B776 43DC 8A5D EAF9 2126 9A67 A7DA 390F DEFF 9DD1 pgpNvl8fBuDBx.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Anthony Atkielski wrote: [...] I keep wondering if [...] I should just continue with FreeBSD and install X on the machine (and KDE, probably, since it seems to be popular, although I welcome suggestions). Which window manager is the closest to classic UNIX window managers (as opposed to wannabe Windows products)? It's not clear what you mean by classic UNIX window managers - maybe CDE or Motif? In any case I've never used them and can't answer that specific question. As for the former... I installed KDE on my 4.10 machine a while ago just to have a look-see, and it seemed *very* Windows-y to me. Start menu, integrated file/web browser, etc. I don't care for it, and didn't bother reinstalling it after going to 5.3. If you don't want a wannabe Windows product, I think you might not like KDE. Plus, the KDE meta-port takes MANY hours to install from ports - at least on my now-modest hardware and mid-speed DSL line. Before and after KDE, I've been using fvwm2 - it's a relatively plain but very configurable window manager, though I suppose you could make it as fancy as you wanted. For a rundown of various WMs, see http://www.plig.org/xwinman/ HTH. -- Chris Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** [ Busy Expunging | ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Mike Hauber writes: Found the thread... Have you tried installing an older version? No, but most of the problems I saw in my research were on 4.x or older versions. This version (5.3) seems to run fine once it's up; the only problem is getting the machine to boot it. Also, I'm getting those weird SCSI disk errors. Well... There's a lot of options available. Personally, I prefer something like blackbox for administrative logins. It's _very_ lightweight and (like all things should be), you pretty much build it from the ground up. What do you mean by building it from the ground up? What do I get when I type startx by default? It looks extremely simple, whatever it is, just a few simple windows in green borders on a rather irritating gray crosshatched background. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Different OS's? Marketshare
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jacob S Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:53 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Different OS's? Marketshare On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 21:24:36 +0100 Anthony Atkielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew L. Gould writes: snip Fourth, I appreciate all the hard work that goes into developing and packaging an operating system and its related applications. I am happy to pay for the convenience of an operating system on a DVD. It's only fair that the vendor be able to recover cost. If earning a little profit motivates them to continue providing a great service, all the better. Fine. Except that distributors are barely doing anything more than repackaging someone else's work. They didn't write Linux. And how would you classify all of the Gnu and gpl software, or the Linux software that runs under the Linux compatability layer in FreeBSD? KDE, Nmap, Xfree86, x.org, mailman, exim, qmail and ezmlm are just a few that come to mind. Whoh there Jacob. What are you talking about? The only software that runs under the linux compatability layer is compiled linux binaries where the source isn't available. All the programs you mentioned above are source available, and they are all compiled to native FreeBSD binaries under FreeBSD. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Different OS's? Marketshare
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kevin Kinsey Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 1:04 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Anthony Atkielski Subject: Re: Different OS's? Marketshare There are so many other WMs. It all depends on how you work. And, you can run some toolbars/docks, iconifying program, pretty much any X application, whatever, on just about anything -- tools, not policy after all. Greg Lehey, for example, states (~to the effect of~) I'm not into eye candy, and runs something rather simple (twm? fvwm?) that's all configured exactly the way he wants it across several monitors, at rather/very high resolution(s). He either has great eyesight, or has good glasses, I guess (and it's pure speculation and nothing personal at all) because he works surrounded by words, words, and more words, I suppose, whether it's code, mail, whatever. Hi Kevin, It is interesting you said that, I never heard that one before, but I am the same way. The VM that I use on my systems is tvm. It is fast and frankly all the wm does is make it so you don't have to remember to type firefox when you want to start firefox. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Robert Kim, Wireless Internet / Wifi Hotspot Advisor wrote: Different OS's? Marketshare... any idea how many major OS's are out there today and what market share they have? i think WIN 70% Lin 20% Apple 5% Where did you get these numbers? so who is the other 5 % ??? Well, other than *BSD, names like Solaris, HP-UX, AIX and Tru64 spring to mind. David ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Robert Kim, Wireless Internet / Wifi Hotspot Advisor skrev: Different OS's? Marketshare... any idea how many major OS's are out there today and what market share they have? i think WIN 70% Lin 20% Apple 5% so who is the other 5 % ??? Well. First of all windows is NOT an operatingsystem, it's a windowmanager on top of ms-dos. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Different OS's? Marketshare
AHA! I knew something with Windows as AWRY!!! :o) Ok.. More specifically... What percent of market share does FREEBSD have? X Robert Kim, Wireless Internet Wifi Hotspot Advisor http://evdo-coverage.com http://wireless-internet-broadband-service.com https://evdo.sslpowered.com/wifi-hotspot-router.htm 2611 S Pacific Coast Highway 101 Cardiff by the Sea CA 92007 : 206 984 0880 Wireless Internet Service Is ONLY Broadband with Broadband Customer Service(tm) OUR QUEST: To Kill the Cubicle! (SM) ---Shalo -;-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bernt Hansson Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:02 AM To: FreeBSD mailinglist Subject: Re: Different OS's? Marketshare Robert Kim, Wireless Internet / Wifi Hotspot Advisor skrev: Different OS's? Marketshare... any idea how many major OS's are out there today and what market share they have? i think WIN 70% Lin 20% Apple 5% so who is the other 5 % ??? Well. First of all windows is NOT an operatingsystem, it's a windowmanager on top of ms-dos. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
On Tue, Feb 22, 2005 at 06:01:44PM +0100, Bernt Hansson wrote: Robert Kim, Wireless Internet / Wifi Hotspot Advisor skrev: Different OS's? Marketshare... any idea how many major OS's are out there today and what market share they have? i think WIN 70% Lin 20% Apple 5% so who is the other 5 % ??? Well. First of all windows is NOT an operatingsystem, it's a windowmanager on top of ms-dos. That was true for Windows 3.x/95/98/ME. It is not true for Windows NT/2000/XP all of which are real operating systems, with a kernel that is actually fairly decent (unlike all the stuff that is layered on top of it.) -- Insert your favourite quote here. Erik Trulsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Different OS's? Marketshare
Robert Kim, Wireless Internet / Wifi Hotspot Advisor writes: any idea how many major OS's are out there today and what market share they have? Fresh stats from my Web server: Windows . . . . . . . . . . 93.5118 % Macintosh . . . . . . . . . 4.7794 % Unknown . . . . . . . . . . 1.2731 % WebTV . . . . . . . . . . . 0.2028 % Linux . . . . . . . . . . . 0.1857 % Sun Solaris . . . . . . . . 0.0289 % FreeBSD . . . . . . . . . . 0.0182 % Of course, these are only client machines. FreeBSD is far more present among servers. And remember that the FreeBSD figure represents just one OS, whereas the Linux figure represents dozens of operating systems. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Different OS's? Marketshare
Anthony... WOW! You are good. whew X Robert Kim, Wireless Internet Wifi Hotspot Advisor http://evdo-coverage.com http://wireless-internet-broadband-service.com https://evdo.sslpowered.com/wifi-hotspot-router.htm 2611 S Pacific Coast Highway 101 Cardiff by the Sea CA 92007 : 206 984 0880 Wireless Internet Service Is ONLY Broadband with Broadband Customer Service(tm) OUR QUEST: To Kill the Cubicle! (SM) ---Shalo -;-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Anthony Atkielski Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:59 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Different OS's? Marketshare Robert Kim, Wireless Internet / Wifi Hotspot Advisor writes: any idea how many major OS's are out there today and what market share they have? Fresh stats from my Web server: Windows . . . . . . . . . . 93.5118 % Macintosh . . . . . . . . . 4.7794 % Unknown . . . . . . . . . . 1.2731 % WebTV . . . . . . . . . . . 0.2028 % Linux . . . . . . . . . . . 0.1857 % Sun Solaris . . . . . . . . 0.0289 % FreeBSD . . . . . . . . . . 0.0182 % Of course, these are only client machines. FreeBSD is far more present among servers. And remember that the FreeBSD figure represents just one OS, whereas the Linux figure represents dozens of operating systems. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Different OS's? Marketshare
Ahhh gottit... So Server and Client OS distributions are majorly different.. .wow. Joe, thanks! X Robert Kim, Wireless Internet Wifi Hotspot Advisor http://evdo-coverage.com http://wireless-internet-broadband-service.com https://evdo.sslpowered.com/wifi-hotspot-router.htm 2611 S Pacific Coast Highway 101 Cardiff by the Sea CA 92007 : 206 984 0880 Wireless Internet Service Is ONLY Broadband with Broadband Customer Service(tm) OUR QUEST: To Kill the Cubicle! (SM) ---Shalo -;-) -Original Message- From: Wood, Joe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 12:07 PM To: bob wifi hotspot n evdo wireless internet guy Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Different OS's? Marketshare Here is a link to some stats for WebServers http://www.serverwatch.com/news/article.php/10824_1123171_3 OS group Percentage Composition Windows 49.2% Windows 2000, NT4, NT3, Windows 95, Windows 98 Linux 28.5% Linux Solaris 7.6% Solaris 2, Solaris 7, Solaris 8 BSD 6.3% BSDI BSD/OS, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD Unix2.4% AIX, Compaq Tru64, HP-UX, IRIX, SCO Unix, SunOS 4 non-Unix2.5% MacOS, NetWare, proprietary IBM OSs Unknown 3.6% -Original Message- From: bob wifi hotspot n evdo wireless internet guy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 2:59 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Different OS's? Marketshare Anthony... WOW! You are good. whew ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]