[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #4392] Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech advances

[Marko Lindqvist]

Update of patch #4392 (project freeciv):

  Status:  Ready For Test => Done   
 Assigned to:None => cazfi  
 Open/Closed:Open => Closed 


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[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #4392] Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech advances

[Marko Lindqvist]

Update of patch #4392 (project freeciv):

 Planned Release:   3.1.0 => 3.0.0, 3.1.0   

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Follow-up Comment #11:

S3_0 version

(file #29957)
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Additional Item Attachment:

File name: ExtraVisibilityReq-S3_0.patch  Size:16 KB


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[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #4392] Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech advances

[Marko Lindqvist]

Update of patch #4392 (project freeciv):

  Status:None => Ready For Test 
 Planned Release:   3.0.0 => 3.1.0  

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Follow-up Comment #10:

Patch to give extras visibility_req property

- Only a tech can be such a requirement, this is not fullblown requirements
list
- This affects visibility of the extra only. For the purposes of all the rules
the extra still exist. Ruleset author is supposed to construct requirement
lists of the actual rules so that they match visibility of the extra, if that
is wanted.

(file #29953)
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Additional Item Attachment:

File name: ExtraVisibilityReq.patch   Size:16 KB


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[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #4392] Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech advances

[Frank]

Follow-up Comment #9, patch #4392 (project freeciv):

One of the few major C-evo features not yet available in Freeciv, good plan.
As feature for some (new) rulesets, not everywhere, not in classic.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #4392] Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech advances

[Marko Lindqvist]

Update of patch #4392 (project freeciv):

Category:None => general
 Planned Release: => 3.0.0  


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[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #4392] Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech advances

[David Lowe]

Follow-up Comment #7, patch #4392 (project freeciv):

Sorry i'm late to this conversation.

 Civ III has it.

Indeed, that was probably the worst thing about it.  When you suddenly
discovered you couldn't build railroads due to missing iron and/or coal the
only solution was quitting - i tried many times and was never able to trade or
conquer my out of this problem.  Perhaps if new resources would sometimes be
'discovered' during play might ease the pain?  That could reasonably be
accompanied by an occasional known resource being removed due to depletion.

Yes, shared vision would become more complicated.

I'd go along with the notion that a new resource should be visible to all when
it becomes available.  Just because you don't know how to use Uranium doesn't
mean you haven't seen it; you'd still be able to trade it.

I'd also hate to have to re-scout all my territory to find out if  any of
those swamps have coal.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #4392] Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech advances

[Edgaras Šeputis]

Follow-up Comment #8, patch #4392 (project freeciv):

Well showing resource to everyone just after first player discovers needed
tech seems a bit unfair to discovering player, I'd give some grace period.

As for Civ 3, well I played bots only and I managed to get most stuff I
needed. Also if you have enough territory you'r boudnd to get everything :).
Civ 3 also had mentioned depleation and spontaious discovery features,
what it seemed to be - game simply moved/deleted/created resources sometimes.
So if you had iron you might lose it or if you didin't have you might gain it.
I do not think I liked that feature.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #4392] Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech advances

[Edgaras Šeputis]

Follow-up Comment #6, patch #4392 (project freeciv):

Strategic resources would be awesome. From what I understand (and that is
quite little at least at the moment) about freeciv, it would seem that all
resource should be implemented using extras/flags, effects and requirements.
And I do not think that having time dependent showing is good. I would
imagine something like visibility effect/description: 

[effect_oil_visible]
type = Resource_Visible
value = +50
reqs =
   { type, name, range, survives
 Tech, Combustion, Player, 1
 Terrain, Desert, Local, 0
   }



Survives tag could be used to make some interesting effects, though it
probably can cause undesirable effects too. On the other hand all of this
would probably interact very badly with map trading.  My understanding would
be that resource would be just a flag on terrain (also having any ammount of
possibel resources per terrain would be cool) and all qualities of that
resource would be expressed using effects. That way you could even have
changing value of resource depending on development of your civ. Maybe at the
start oil is worth only a little bit, but as you progress it becomes more
important and thus provide more bennefits (well besides of allowing more
advanced units and improvements). Maybe later you go all nuclear and oil
looses importance, and instead uranium is all what matters.

[effect_oil_prod_boost]
type = Prod_Boost_Pct
value = +50
reqs =
   { type, name, range
 Tech, Combustion, Player
 Terrain, Desert, Local
   }



The point about resources dissalowing certain improvements is very unclear to
me. I do not think that there are any limitations on improvements based on
resources, it seems that that is fully defined by terrain. Of course this is
for version I'm laying 2.4.1.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #4392] Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech advances

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #2, patch #4392 (project freeciv):

 Also, rather than implementing simple reveal-and-never-hide 
 feature, I think more general appear and disappear framework 
 that could model anything of revealing, hiding, depleting, 
 actual appearance and disappearance, growing, falling from the 
 sky, blocking, worker's strike, etc would be in order.
Mm. Part of the reason I chose reveal-and-never-hide semantics was that it was
nice and simple to implement, and didn't require some way for players to
remember I'm sure there used to be stoats on this tile without keeping it
all in their head.
This concern is specific to the cases where player knowledge is kept
incomplete. Actual appearance and disappearance in the real world is easier to
handle (again, provided there isn't hidden state in a tile that indicates its
likeliness to spawn stoats at some point in future).
I'm not sure what shape such a framework would take, beyond using requirements
to trigger the various changes. I guess you're thinking of something a bit lit
the extra-causes system?

 I'd be tempted to have a go at this for 2.5,
 I would oppose. [...]
Fair enough. There wouldn't have been time, anyway.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #4392] Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech advances

[Marko Lindqvist]

Follow-up Comment #3, patch #4392 (project freeciv):

 This concern is specific to the cases where player knowledge is
 kept incomplete.

Right. What I have had in mind system where the extras get actually created
when they should be made visible, rather than keeping them hidden from players
until then. I take it the difference between the two systems (property that
one player can know the extra and the other not) is important to you?

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[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #4392] Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech advances

[Jacob Nevins]

Follow-up Comment #4, patch #4392 (project freeciv):

 I take it the difference between the two systems (property 
 that one player can know the extra and the other not) is 
 important to you?
Absolutely -- I think it's vital for certain rulesets involving strategic
resources.
You don't even know where to look for oil until you have appropriate tech, so
you can't spend the entire game from the bronze age defending territory with
oil because you know it'll be useful in 2000 years; and you can befriend
someone with higher tech and get their map to find it (or maybe steal their
map).
(CivIV has this notion, don't know about previous versions.)

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[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #4392] Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech advances

[Marko Lindqvist]

Follow-up Comment #5, patch #4392 (project freeciv):

Civ III has it. It just that I always thought that it would be better if
resources were revealed to everybody when first one reached the required tech
- even if you don't know the tech details well enough to use it yourself,
there's some leakage about its nature (I can't build combustion engines
myself, but I still know that they need Oil). For multiplayer game balance it
would be nice if player already leading wouldn't have additional benefit of
knowing which geographical areas are important - I'd like to know strenghten
my defenses where I have resources enemy is hungry for.

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[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #4392] Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech advances

[Jacob Nevins]

URL:
  http://gna.org/patch/?4392

 Summary: Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech
advances
 Project: Freeciv
Submitted by: jtn
Submitted on: Thu Jan  2 16:01:06 2014
Category: None
Priority: 5 - Normal
  Status: None
 Privacy: Public
 Assigned to: None
Originator Email: 
 Open/Closed: Open
 Discussion Lock: Any
 Planned Release: 

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Details:

(We should have a ticket status Half-Baked.)

It would probably be fairly easy to make it so that a particular kind of
resource would only be revealed to a player when they learn a certain
technology. This would be particularly useful for strategic resources
(required for units/buildings/etc).

Basic implementation would probably be fairly simple -- just don't send the
resource to the client until its requirement is known, and evaluate tile
output and requirements in the context of player knowledge.
Once a resource is known to exist on a tile, the player gets to keep that
knowledge forever, even if they lose the prerequisite.

When the relevant tech is learned, we could either reveal the resource in any
tile known by the player and add it to their private map (patter: scholars go
over their records looking for tales of yellow rocks on discovery of uranium),
or require re-exploration of terrain to find the resource -- this could be a
ruleset (per-resource) choice.
* The latter has usability issues -- how does a player track which bits of
terrain have been re-surveyed?
** Possible idea: update the map generator to optionally arrange that every
tile of a certain type has either a helium-3 or no helium-3 resource, both
revealed by the same tech, the latter having no sprite; and add a map overlay
to the client highlighting areas which don't have any known resources.
** This would also allow resource surveys to be done by specialist units in an
explore-type mode, if that were desired.
** Need to think about what happens if there are multiple resources for a tile
revealed at different times; perhaps we have to forbid that.
* In general, in both cases strategic resources would benefit from extra
client UI to find resource locations on the map, but that's outside the scope
of this ticket.

Obvious generalisation questions:
* Should the requirement be hardcoded to be a tech, or can it be a generalised
requirement? If the latter, then probably certain requirement types will never
be handled correctly.
* Should it be limited to resources, or can it be extras too? Resources have
certain restrictions that make this easier to implement. (Not sure what future
plans are for resources vs extras.)

There are several wrinkles with this that would need ironing out. Some I've
thought of:
* This makes player maps more valuable. I don't think we need a new resource
map diplomatic gift, but the AI may need to evaluate the value of world maps
more carefully in diplomacy, considering shared vision etc.
* This would interact badly with extra/building requirements on the *absence*
of a certain resource (you can't build a mine here, but I can't tell you
why). Can we detect and disallow this at ruleset loading time?
* All the requirement machinery would need updating to reflect the uncertainty
of presence of a resource on a tile, to avoid the server leaking information
about hidden resources.
* (Probably more I've already forgotten.)

I'd be tempted to have a go at this for 2.5, but (a) I have no time (b) stuff
will clearly come out of the woodwork (c) it'll probably be much simpler if we
can rely on all the 'extras' work having been done first.




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[Freeciv-Dev] [patch #4392] Hidden resources which can be revealed by tech advances

[Marko Lindqvist]

Follow-up Comment #1, patch #4392 (project freeciv):

 Should it be limited to resources, or can it be extras too?

Actually I have been vaguely thinking about implementing this as new extra
class. Not that I particularly want that feature, so don't rely on me to
implement it.

Also, rather than implementing simple reveal-and-never-hide feature, I think
more general appear and disappear framework that could model anything of
revealing, hiding, depleting, actual appearance and disappearance, growing,
falling from the sky, blocking, worker's strike, etc would be in order.

 I'd be tempted to have a go at this for 2.5,

I would oppose.

1) That's not an improvement over existing feature, but completely new
feature, and S2_5 should be rather stable already. After all, I've proposed
datafile format freeze in two months.
2) Things will come out from woodwork - I've proposed datafile format freeze
in two months and if not all things have been ironed out before the freeze, we
have to live with them
3) Even if this would not be based on extras work, porting between S2_5 and
TRUNK that has all the extras work would probably be more work than it's worth
(I'm probably biased though, as I have no plans to use such feature in my own
ruleset)

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