[Freedos-user] CTMouse Buttons programming?

[Thomas Desi]

Has anyone out there achieved programming the right mouse button to a modifier 
key, e.g. Control
?

I can‘t find any info on the forum or at CTmouse (CuteMouse) in Freedos which 
otherwise works fine.

Any ideas where to look?
regards, Thom

___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] CTMouse Buttons programming?

[Thomas Desi]

Hi Eric, thanks for responding.

I have a (normal) two button mouse and want to change the behaviour of a mouse 
button to act as if I pressed the »CONTROL« key on the keyboard. 

Use case: A DOS application where the mouse acts as a pointer without the need 
to click. 
This suggests to use the mouse buttons for productivity, e.g. assign the 
CONTROL key to the mouse.

Maybe there is some script availabe to REMAP keys and mouse in FreeDOS?

NB. In GUI operating systems there are applications such as Autohotkey, 
Karabiner etc. to achieve this.

Maybe I need to buy a programmable mouse instead.  Fair enough.

Regards, Thom

> On Fri,20210409- week14, at 20:03, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi!
> 
>> Has anyone out there achieved programming the right
>> mouse button to a modifier key, e.g. Control?
>> 
>> I can‘t find any info on the forum or at CTmouse
>> (CuteMouse) in Freedos which otherwise works fine.
> 
> Please explain your problem. Do you have a mouse with
> only one button and want control-click to act as if
> you had clicked the right button?
> 
> Regards, Eric
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] CTMouse Buttons programming?

[Thomas Desi]

Thank you all for responses to my question. 
I just emailed the original author about this and am awaiting what he has to 
say on this. 

I downloaded Jon Brase’s MOUSKEYS which is great and I did enjoy reading the 
documentation. Long time I haven’t read any doc like it.
It works, but strangely enough not on the two programs I use. The program 
(EVE.EXE) doesn’t seem to care at all about what MOUSKEYS is set up to. The 
program in question, called EVE.EXE cancels all conventions in DOS and sets it 
all up anew. Amazing.  
As much as I like MOUSKEYS, till now it doesn’t seem to team up with the 
program. 

This makes me thinking that also ERIC’s sketch for a TSR (yes, Eric, you are 
right, it’s all »Chinese« to me) won’t do in this case either. 

So I just will see what the original programer might have to tell, and if of 
interest, allow me to share it with you. 

Thanks, regards, Thomas

> On Sat,20210410- week14, at 03:39, Adam Nielsen via Freedos-user 
>  wrote:
> 
>> DOS itself doesn't use/support any mouse, it is up to an application to 
>> interpret the responses given through the INT 33h API, which is 
>> implemented either by the BIOS or a "driver" (TSR_ like CTMouse. While 
>> probably not completely impossible to add another TSR that would 
>> intercept INT33h and instead feeds simulated keyboard events into INT 
>> 9h. I am not sure that something like this exist, at least neither 
>> myself nor any of my friends/clients ever had a need for such a tool...
> 
> Not quite so helpful but the old XT I had many years ago (an Amstrad
> PC1640) had the mouse connected to the keyboard rather than a serial
> port as was usual for the time, and I believe it worked by sending
> unused key codes in response to mouse actions.  The mouse driver would
> pick up these key codes and handle the int 33h stuff.
> 
> However because of this, the machine could be configured at the
> hardware level to send different key codes for the mouse buttons.  So
> running a DOS application to change the machine's CMOS settings was all
> it took to reassign the mouse buttons to send any keystroke you wanted,
> and the setting would persist across power cycles without needing any
> TSR running.
> 
> I wonder whether the author of the original application being discussed
> here had a similar machine, and assumed all PCs could have their mouse
> buttons configured similarly.
> 
> Cheers,
> Adam.
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] CTMouse Buttons programming?

[Thomas Desi]

Hello Bret,
I wanted to wait for a response from Eve.exe‘s original author on this, but 
meanwhile I found a replacement program, where mouskeys just do what I want. 
(Te261dos.exe Texteditor)

Thanks so much for mouskeys!
And allow me: one of the best written documentations I have encountered. 

Thomas

Am 11.04.2021 um 07:25 schrieb Bret Johnson :


What exactly does the EVE.EXE program do?  It's possible that you just don't 
have the correct options set up in MOUSKEYS (or EVE).



Choose to be safer online.
Opt-in to Cyber Safety with NortonLifeLock.
Plans starting as low as $6.95 per month.*
NetZero.com/NortonLifeLock ___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] DOS was dead...

[Thomas Desi]

DOS Emulator (which works on the Raspberry Pi) is indeed interesting. 
I have similar questions, (also connected the recent question from Stephanos: 

>"I want to boot to freeDOS using a CD ROM.  
>Then I want to insert a memory stick into the computer and copy 
> a file from the Windows HDD onto
>the memory stick.  Is this possible and if so which version of freeDOS
>do I use?“ 

I was trying to figure out how to use an USB Stick on a FreeDOS Harddisk 
installed system. This is absolutely crucial to me, otherwise how would I be 
able to get something out or in to the computer?? (I definitely don’t want 
networking!) My floppy-drive is … USB, too :(

Maybe this has been  discussed already - so my excuses. I am still scanning the 
mail archive…

I just installed FreeDos on an ITX and harddisk. I can read and write on the 
disk and the Usb Stick, if I boot directly from the Stick. It doesn’t work the 
other way round, i.e. booting from the disk and trying to D: (=USB Stick) to 
read/write. Bret Johnsons USButils „driver.com“ shows me that dos recognises 
something, but not „enough“ to access when booted from the Disk. I formated the 
disk with FAT32. Maybe not good? Should it be FAT16? … 
(And I still need to read through Bret’s complete Doc. Maybe this will make me 
more clever… hey.)

So: Would I have similar USB-issues using Freedos via EMU2 on a raspberry?? 
Maybe we need to find out, or has somebody already done that?
(I care about using FreeDos, not the CPU or Bios or computer etc. Raspberry is 
nice, because small like FreeDOS!)

regards, Thomas

> Am 14.04.2021 um 14:52 schrieb Carsten Strotmann :
> 
> Hi FreeDOS list,
> 
> On 14 Apr 2021, at 14:25, Eric Auer wrote:
> 
>> I am sure there are a variety of other ways to do
>> what "nobody" has released yet ;-)
> 
> one DOS Emulator (which works on the Raspberry Pi, as well as on almost all 
> Unix like systems) that I can recommend for non graphical text based programs 
> is EMU2 --> https://github.com/dmsc/emu2
> 
> EMU2 lets you execute DOS programs as if they are native 
> Linux/MacOS/OpenBSD/Raspbian programs. Is a little bit like WINE but for DOS, 
> as it's emulates the BIOS and MS-DOS interrupts. EMU2 also works quite well 
> as part of a development chain (Makefile etc) where some parts needs to be 
> done with native Unix/Linux tools while other parts needs to be executed by 
> DOS tools.
> 
> Greetings
> 
> Carsten
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 

___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] DOS was dead...

[Thomas Desi]

> Am 14.04.2021 um 16:57 schrieb Tomas By :
> 
> On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:25:37 +0200, Thomas Desi wrote:
>> [...] USB Stick on a FreeDOS [...] This is absolutely crucial to me,
>> otherwise how would I be able to get something out or in to the
>> computer??
> 
> By dual-booting and reading the Freedos FAT partition from Linux or
> Windows...
> 
oops — I killed the Windows7 professional to install a „bare metal“ FreeDos on 
it, naively thinking to get rid of other helper OSs … 
> 
> 
>> I just installed FreeDos on an ITX and harddisk. I can read and
>> write on the disk and the Usb Stick, if I boot directly from the
>> Stick. It doesn’t work the other way round, i.e. booting from the
>> disk and trying to D: (=USB Stick) to read/write.
> 
> You need to change the boot order in the BIOS, to boot from the HD
> (with the stick inserted).

This doesn’t work here. 
The stick is not recognised when booting from HD with stick inserted.
In this case, the Freedos startup screen (shall I say?), prints „3 disks 
available - no disk assigned“. I looked up the ASSIGN command but this doesn't  
make sense to use in this case? Something is recognized but not accessible...

> 
> 
>> (I care about using FreeDos, not the CPU or Bios or computer
>> etc. Raspberry is nice, because small like FreeDOS!)
> 
> Well, "you may not be interested in the BIOS, but the BIOS is
> interested in you", or something.
> 
I just wanted prioritize the use of  FreeD-OS (and not Linux, Windows or MacOS) 
against on what machine I could make it work. (Having 2 old laptops, 2 
minicomputers, 1 atx… at least one of these should be working? The MSI and the 
SAMSUNG laptops, by the ways, didn’t allow for installing FreeDOS. „Packages 
not found“ and that’s that. It is definitely the BIOS that doesn’t allow for 
it. I think Stephanos had this issue in his last threads discussed. I gave up 
on that and start from USB Stick. Great solution, but I don’t trust USB Sticks 
as a storage device. I have a couple of them which stopped working („kaputt“) … 
against Harddisk only a second choice. Correct me...

regards, T-h-omas

> /Tomas
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] DOS was dead...

[Thomas Desi]

UEFI Version AD2559B-ITX P1.40 
CPU: Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU D2550  @ 1.86GHz
Processor Speed: 1865MHz

I don’t use at Boot the „UEFI“, but USB- „Flash“ Disk…

( The Pl.40 Bios: https://www.asrock.com/support/cpu.asp?s=775&u=205 )

— after Booting: —>

FreeDos says:
„No drives assigned.
3 drives(s) available“

and starting DRIVES.COM to look what is there i  see:

DRIVES 0.01 by Bret E. Johnson ( I copy from the screen: )

A   ??? 0   Unknown
B   ??? 0   Unknown
C ….FAT32  Bytes per Sector 512 ... 318 Gb
D ….FAT32   „   512 ... Unknown


-
 C is the Harddisk
D is the stick which was sticked in at boot time, but not booted from.

 
Any ideas?
- T h omas


> Am 14.04.2021 um 17:27 schrieb Tomas By :
> 
> On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 17:09:34 +0200, Thomas Desi wrote:
>> The stick is not recognised when booting from HD with stick inserted.
>> In this case, the Freedos startup screen (shall I say?), prints „3
>> disks available - no disk assigned“.
> 
> Maybe you could report the name/version of the BIOS, and then see if
> somebody here knows.
> 
> So which are those disks? HD, USB, and?
> 
> 
>> „Packages not found“ and that’s that.
> 
> Eh... all you need to do is boot and say "sys c:". Then you can just
> copy the DOS file manually. Packages, schmackages.
> 
> If you explain in more detail what you have on those machines (ie can
> you boot from USB, does the external floppy work etc), then I am sure
> ppl will tell you how to install it.
> 
> /Tomas
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] DOS was dead...

[Thomas Desi]

thanks, Tomas, I will go the path you suggest.  Any particular Linux flavor you 
suggest for this?
(I would go for a „comand line interface“ only.)
T-h-omas

> Am 14.04.2021 um 17:51 schrieb Tomas By :
> 
> On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 17:44:13 +0200, Thomas Desi wrote:
>> [...] Any ideas?
> 
> I think A and B are Windows debris.
> 
> You probably just formatted C to get rid of Windows. You could have
> partitioned the disk first.
> 
> I don't know that BIOS.
> 
> But start over from the beginning, make two partitions of equal size,
> put Freedos on one and Linux on the other.
> 
> /Tomas
> 
> 
>> UEFI Version AD2559B-ITX P1.40 
>> CPU: Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU D2550  @ 1.86GHz
>> Processor Speed: 1865MHz
>> 
>> I don’t use at Boot the „UEFI“, but USB- „Flash“ Disk…
>> 
>> ( The Pl.40 Bios: https://www.asrock.com/support/cpu.asp?s=775&u=205 )
>> 
>> — after Booting: —>
>> 
>> FreeDos says:
>> „No drives assigned.
>> 3 drives(s) available“
>> 
>> and starting DRIVES.COM to look what is there i  see:
>> 
>> DRIVES 0.01 by Bret E. Johnson ( I copy from the screen: )
>> 
>> A??? 0   Unknown
>> B??? 0   Unknown
>> C …. FAT32  Bytes per Sector 512 ... 318 Gb
>> D …. FAT32   „   512 ... Unknown
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> C is the Harddisk
>> D is the stick which was sticked in at boot time, but not booted from.
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Why do you use DOS

[Thomas Desi]

HI Johnpaul - whom are you addressing in your mail saying
> "So my question is, why do YOU use FreeDOS?"

just in case…  ;) here is my „ranting rating“: 

- I am 50ish and not so much nostalgic about computing, but: 

- want to get rid of networking on my „composing tool“
- want to have a lighting fast bootup
- want to have 1 (one!!) single app that I use, 
- don’t want the virus thing (do we?)
- don’t want all those hidden spying/cookies/passwords/logins
- (single user instance, at home, old computer: who ever would want to get into 
my files? If they start the computer, they wouldn’t know what to do when seeing 
the FreeDos splash screen ; ) - Kidding)
- don't want "update nagging“, this has become crazyness. (legacy program like, 
e.g. VDE Editor and others can’t possibly made any better … like in „here is 
the update to the wheel“..)
- want to be able to switch the thing off with a button: „Zip!“ and walk away 
from the screen. 
- (and no waiting or „the computer was not correctly shut down … bla blabla“)
- No „power saving“ or „standby modes“ which anyway also consume quite an 
amount of energy, with funny standby-lights flashing all night in your 
appartment. Just switch it entirely off.
- single simple view of what I have written (actual OS suggest to become a 
virtuoso in creating folders/directories and drop files on a „desktop“ which is 
a fake folder, too…
- want to have single files that represent an „app“. (not thousands of 
libraries, dependencies, installs, dlls, blablabl)
- a disk with FEW files alltogether. (Windows10 uses around 300,000 files for a 
fresh 12 GIGABYTE install! THREEHUNDRED THOUSAND)
- a system of a handful of commands I program on my „macro pad“ - and press it 
without need to type in, not even „dir“ or „cd ..“ or „type“ etc…
- want SIMPLICITY, purism, „control“ ...
- want to learn to understand a little how actually a computer works as a tool, 
not as a consumer gadget that could - theoretically - do EVERYTHING and drives 
me nuts because of the running „why doesn’t it do this and that“…
- and a few more which sound quite similar to your reasons!

I agree that there has been a huge amount of programming work, carefully 
written out documentations and alike become obsolete in the last decades.

In my experience (Text/composing/editing( I don’t see ANY difference working on 
a Windows10 Computer in Word today and how it was back in say 1988 when I had 
my first machine regarding the workflow… Text-editing hasn’t changed in the 
last decades, that is why Emacs and VI(m) are still much in use. But I guess 
this is a different story and doesn’t fit into this thread.


- T-h-omas 


> Am 14.04.2021 um 17:59 schrieb Johnpaul Humphrey :
> 
> In light of the "DOS was dead" discussion, I wanted to ask a question.
> I was *born* after support was dropped for MS-DOS, so I can't claim
> nostalgia as my reason for use. Recently I installed FreeDOS on my
> modern HP-Pavilion laptop, alongside BSD, Linux, and plan9. I did this
> because I like DOS's speed and assembly programming.
> It worked fine after I fixed the beep bug with your help.
> So my question is, why do YOU use FreeDOS?
> Is it primarily nostalgia? Legacy program support? Speed?
> Note that I don't consider running legacy software a bad reason. I was
> shocked by how much good software has been "thrown away" because of
> its age. On Linux all my favorite software (vi, siag office, twm,
> motif &c.) was written before I was born. However, that is not my
> primary reason for using FreeDOS. my primary reason is because it is
> like the motorcycle of operating systems. It is lightweight, has no
> red tape to cut through to do things, and is monotasking. (Monotasking
> is also why I don't use it as much as I would like to, but why I use
> it at all.)
> I figured that if I had a different reason than what everybody
> assumes, that some of you might as well. Everyone seems to assume that
> DOS is used by people who are unable to cope with progress and have to
> run their ancient version of word perfect. If that is your reason, it
> is not a bad reason. I was thinking of eventually writing a 64-bit dos
> work [sort of] alike eventually, but it would not be able to support
> legacy programs due to segment offset addressing and a million other
> things.
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] DOS was dead...

[Thomas Desi]

Eric, Tomas, 
thanks for this helpful info!

If installing Linux helps to get my files out of FreeDos
(hm… „free my files!!“ - or is it a "Lockdown-Dos“?), I will do. 

My „dream“ was it to „marry“ FreeDOS with a portable USB Stick (Backup and 
Carrying), whilst booting from a Harddisk and working on C:. 
But maybe this is n’t so important after all, how complicated it all seems to 
me. Daunting.

NB: I wonder if there was a „USB 1.0“ Usb-Stick, if FreeDOS prefers USB 1.0?
Maybe Bret E. Johnson knows something? He was very helpful with his MOUSKEYS 
application, and seems to kow about USB on Dos a lot. 

Regards, 
Thomas


> Am 14.04.2021 um 18:15 schrieb Eric Auer :
> 
> 
> Hi Thomas,
> 
>> Any particular Linux flavor you suggest for this?
>> (I would go for a „command line interface“ only.)
> 
> That sounds masochistic ;-) As long as you do not
> need 3d accelerated drivers, a graphical desktop
> for Linux should work on almost all hardware just
> automatically. Of course you will need a mouse :-)
> You can still go plain text with a simple hotkey.
> 
> The "usual distro" of the day would be Ubuntu, with
> MINT being a spin-off and with lightweight variants
> such as Xubuntu or Lubuntu which default to install
> less heavy graphical things than the normal Ubuntu.
> MATE also is just yet another variant.
> 
> Under the hood, those are more or less the same, you
> simply get different default packages/apps installed.
> If you really want to avoid Ubuntu: Fedora, OpenSUSE,
> Debian, etc. are more different from Ubuntu flavors.
> 
> How much RAM, disk space and CPU speed (including
> the number of cores) do you have available? In other
> words, do you want something lightweigth? Or will
> any widespread Linux flavor do?
> 
> Distros now tend to require at least i686, so if
> you have something older than Pentium Pro or II,
> that will limit the choice of distros. If you have
> a 64-bit capable (x86_64) CPU, you actually get
> more choice than if you do not. And for Raspberry
> and other ARM CPU, you get yet other choices.
> 
> Cheers, Eric
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Thomas Desi]

I just found a recipe regarding USB-Sticks & MS-DOS.
It says „...Although DOS lacks built-in USB support, some unofficial drivers 
are available. They leverage the fact that USB mass storage uses SCSI command 
set. SCSI hard drives were readily available during golden years of MS-DOS. The 
USB driver simply emulates SCSI adapter.“

 (SOURCE: https://slomkowski.eu/retrocomputing/usb-mass-storage-on-ms-dos/ )

Could this also work on FreeDos?

-Thomas



> Am 14.04.2021 um 14:42 schrieb Eric Auer :
> 
> 
> Hi Stephanos,
> 
>> Dell ... looked at the problem and confirmed that:
>> 1) there is no BIOS update offered for my laptop, N5030
>> 2) that the BIOs update that I was using is for model M5030,
>> which has an AMD processor.  Mine has an Intel processor
> 
> That explains a lot!
> 
>> 3) they are not going to offer a BIOS update for my laptop
>> 
>> Thanks to everyone for the assistance.  I now know how to make a
>> bootable media and put files onto the media that I can see in that
>> enviroinment.  That is going to be useful.
>> 
>> One question remains
>> a) does anyone know anyone who can write a BIOS for me?
> 
> But you already HAVE a BIOS, it just is old? Please
> explain what exactly you want to change in your BIOS,
> why, and which type of processor you have exactly.
> 
> Regards, Eric
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] DOS was dead...

[Thomas Desi]

> Am 14.04.2021 um 19:16 schrieb Ralf Quint :
> 
> On 4/14/2021 9:30 AM, Thomas Desi wrote:
>> Eric, Tomas,
>> thanks for this helpful info!
>> 
>> If installing Linux helps to get my files out of FreeDos
>> (hm… „free my files!!“ - or is it a "Lockdown-Dos“?), I will do.
> You do not have to "install" Linux. Just use a Live CD (my suggestion is 
> still Linux Mint 20.1 Mate) and use the file manager of that to drag and drop 
> stuff from your dead Windows onto your USB stick…

THIS IS GOOD NEWS!

>> 
>> My „dream“ was it to „marry“ FreeDOS with a portable USB Stick (Backup and 
>> Carrying), whilst booting from a Harddisk and working on C:.
>> But maybe this is n’t so important after all, how complicated it all seems 
>> to me. Daunting.
> The problem is that (Free)DOS can't properly access any Windows system of the 
> last 20 years. Even with basic NTFS reader support, on Windows version Vista 
> and newer, you will likely run into permission issues, which are kind of 
> resolved on Linux, but will never be working in any DOS…

I erased the disk entirely and formatted it FAT32 solely for FreeDOS. So there 
shouldn’t be any Windows, but maybe resident Evil needs more erasing and 
partitioning than I did…?

>> 
>> NB: I wonder if there was a „USB 1.0“ Usb-Stick, if FreeDOS prefers USB 1.0?
>> Maybe Bret E. Johnson knows something? He was very helpful with his MOUSKEYS 
>> application, and seems to kow about USB on Dos a lot.
> 
> (Free)DOS just does't care about USB in the first place. USB just became a 
> thing after DOS wasn't a thing anymore…
> 
nice phrase! Probabely my misconception about FreeDos. I like FreeDos. It’s as 
simple as FreeDos is. But: I want USB storage support.

thanks! Thomas

> 
> Ralf
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

[Freedos-user] DOS word processors / text editors

[Thomas Desi]

Hi John, 
thanks for your experience account and software list. 
I am intrigued - as »collecting« word processors/text editors in the "quest for 
the best« - I managed to find
the following. 
(https://winworldpc.com/download/c3806cc3-a010-c2a4-0911-c3a6e280947e)

What version woud you advice or are you using? There is a significant 
difference in size between v.1.00 and 1.01 as you can see…

thanks for your opinion on this. (I am currently working with VDE)
regards, Thomas
 
 Borland Sprint 1.00 (5.25-360k) 
 1.00
English 1.38MB  1
 Borland Sprint 1.01 (3.5-720k) 
  1.01
English 1.52MB  1
 Borland Sprint 1.x Manuals 
  1.x 
English 48.9MB  1


> On Thu,20210415- week15, at 13:59, JR  wrote:
> 
> SP - Sprint - Borland's Word Processor - Produce Postscript files which are 
> converted to PDF's. Used for all documentation, letters and quotations.

___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] boot linux - transfer FreeDos files to USB Flashdiskx

[Thomas Desi]

Hi, following recommandations on linux: I have used »Knoppix« and found it a 
clever »live« version:
http://www.knoppix.org/

regards, Thomas


> On Thu,20210415- week15, at 14:48, Jerome Shidel  wrote:
> 
> I primarily use openSUSE and CentOS. 
> 
> But for a Live CD linux, I recommend checking out one that isn’t even in the 
> top 100 on the distrowatch list. 
> 
> A while back, I was looking for a distro that still actively supported 32-bit 
> hardware. Most mainstream distros have 
> moved to 64-bit only.  However, out of the ones I’ve tried that still do 
> 32-bit, most seem sluggish at best. 
> 
> I found this extremely lightweight and snappy little distro interesting.
> 
> They still do actively support 32 & 64-bit versions.
> It is very very small. The biggest version is around 160mb. 
> A usable desktop + networking + Wifi version about 45mb.
> There is even a Floppy Only version for people without USB or CD.
> 
> https://www.slitaz.org/en/ 
> 
> I’ve tried the 32-bit version on an old Toshiba Pentium 4 Laptop and 
> everything worked. Sound, Wifi, etc.
> 
> :-)
> 
> Jerome
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Why do you use DOS

[Thomas Desi]

@TameDOS ist this like „DOSidle“?

I found „DOSidle", by Marton Balog, 1998, to reduce CPU load, i.e. also reduce 
power consumption of the cpu i guess.
There is a fix of a mouse bug by  „pm386" 
(https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=43384) : UPDATE Aug 12 2015: There is a 
new release DOSidle 2.51, which you can find here DOSidle new version 2.50 
(fixes mouse problems). Haven’t any experience with such add-ons in DOS-

Is there somebody who happens to know about the functionality (usability/) 
regarding DOSidle + FreeDos? Should I Autoexec.bat  
-T h omas




> Am 15.04.2021 um 18:40 schrieb JR :
> 
> 
> 
> On 2021/04/15 18:05, Liam Proven wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Apr 2021 at 14:17, JR  wrote:
>>>  I run DOS under XP with
>>> "TAME" to stop 100% CPU usage.
>> I am curious -- how? In some sort of VM? MS VirtualPC is a free
>> download now... something like that?
> I've got the name wrong. It's TameDOS.
> Nope, not free. It appears to be still available at $20 from the author
> http://www.tamedos.com/tame/tamehome.htm
> 100% CPU usage on a notebook is very noisy with the fan running flat out.
> 
>> 
>>> and then Mark William's COHERENT.
>> Ah, that was an amazing OS in its day. So Unix-like, AT&T sent Dennis
>> Ritchie himself to the MWC offices to check it wasn't pirated. It
>> wasn't.
> I didn't know that ;-) Coherent was advertised in BYTE magazine and was very 
> reasonably priced at the time. It came with and impressive 1200 page plus 
> printed manual. When I moved to DOS, I think I used Kermit to transfer my 
> source files from Coherent to a DOS partition.
>> 
>> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.folklore.computers/c/_ZaYeY46eb4/m/5B41Uym6d4QJ
>> 
>> It's FOSS now.
>> 
>> http://www.nesssoftware.com/home/mwc/
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Why do you use DOS

[Thomas Desi]

Mateusz, 
this one= 66297 2009-09-11  18:42:08fdapm-2009sep11.zip 
<https://www.auersoft.eu/soft/fdapm-2009sep11.zip> on 
https://www.auersoft.eu/soft/

I read the fdapm.txt and notes but can’t figure out: does it go into CONFIG.SYS 
or AUTOEXEC ?

T h omas


> Am 16.04.2021 um 12:58 schrieb Mateusz Viste :
> 
> On 16/04/2021 12:53, Thomas Desi wrote:
>> Is there somebody who happens to know about the functionality (usability/) 
>> regarding DOSidle + FreeDos? Should I Autoexec.bat
> 
> FreeDOS comes with FDAPM, which provides a similar functionality (among other 
> interesting features). There is also an IDLEHALT kernel configuration (to be 
> set through CONFIG.SYS) that enables a subset of what FDAPM is capable of, 
> for those who do not wish to use a powersaving TSR.
> 
> Mateusz
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 

___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Why do you use DOS

[Thomas Desi]

Thank you, Mateusz!

Let’s save the planet with FreeDos!


> Am 16.04.2021 um 13:35 schrieb Mateusz Viste :
> 
> On 16/04/2021 13:15, Thomas Desi wrote:
>> this one= 66297 2009-09-11 18:42:08 fdapm-2009sep11.zip 
>> <https://www.auersoft.eu/soft/fdapm-2009sep11.zip> on 
>> https://www.auersoft.eu/soft/ <https://www.auersoft.eu/soft/>
> 
> Yes.
> 
>> I read the fdapm.txt and notes but can’t figure out: does it go into 
>> CONFIG.SYS or AUTOEXEC ?
> 
> It is a TSR, not a driver - hence you can set it through autoexec.bat, or 
> even run by hand from the command line.
> 
> Mateusz
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] CTMouse Buttons programming?

[Thomas Desi]

Hello  Bret,

allow me to ask you, the author of »mouskeys« and am I right the »usbutils" 
(usb drivers for dos) two questions? 

1) Some DOS Programs (text editors) seem to »override« the mouskeys settings 
(what is summarized in "mouskeys /t«). Is there a trick to obey to mouskeys.com?

- I am not able to have the »CONTROL« on the Right Mousbutton. (mouskeys/t 
looks nice, saying »Scancode 29« - which might be CONTROL, - I tried a couple 
of editors (e3, vde, TE216, EVE, Ne…)

Does »holding« the button fire many repeated keyresses? Is that so? Could the 
»repeat rate" be changed or set to »no repeat«? Same goes to »ALT«. I would 
want to press CONTROL on the Right Mouse Button (/BR:Cntrl)  and whilst holding 
press a key on my keyboard which makes for a command. I tried with my 
USB-keyboard (which works fine) and a PS/2 keyboard. To no avail.
(On FreeDos) Any hint what’s wrong?

2) Talking of USB, the USB driver from usbutils in my case stops the keyboard 
working.(As the warning in the program says) -  I guess there is no way out to 
use the usbdrive.com without a proper usb keyboard driver installed beforehand? 
Right? No chance? Any chance to find out what driver my keyboard would need or 
is it generic or just outdated? (Or I am just not getting it right.)

best regards, 
Thomas

> On Tue,20210413- week15, at 15:07, Bret Johnson  wrote:
> 
> Thomas:
>  
> Glad you were able to find something that works.
>  
> And also thanks for the encouragement with the documentation -- it takes a 
> lot of time and effort to write documentation and good to know it's 
> appreciated.
> 
> 
> 
> Choose to be safer online.
> Opt-in to Cyber Safety with NortonLifeLock.
> Plans starting as low as $6.95 per month.*
>  
> NetZero.com/NortonLifeLock
>  
> 
>  ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] DOS word processors / text editors

[Thomas Desi]

Hi John, 
err… you might be right about this. I will have a look at it, too.

I don’t actually care so much about keybindings, because I »program« them into 
my Tipro 128 PS/2 keyboard (»128«  means 128 keys available to program whatever 
I want…!), so I have custom made keycaps labelled the commands, press it and 
done. No querky pinky, no RSI, no fatigue or mental load on this, and AS FAST 
AS HELL. I am also not so fond of the Emacs-Style double commands (e.g. ^KX or 
alike), I prefer the VIM single letter commands, but then there you have the 
mode-thing, which drove me nuts lately and I switched to EMACS on Mac, WIN and 
LINUX (Raspberry3 Raspian) because… see above. BTW: Protext is a nice product, 
too! 
And! »Boček« can save in UTF-8!! (It pretends to be the only DOS Editor to be 
able to save into UTF, which is VERY interesting to me.! Still active in 
development seemingly!)

You are hitting the nail: It’s really annoying to me that in the moment  I 
found a program (or an operating system ;) which makes me think: »This is it!«, 
the itches turn up. Those little bits which make me think, its not worth to 
»change« to another system or program. 

Your response on VDE just arrived in time when I was thinking to sum up my 
»FreeDos« experience from a complete NON-tech user perspective who always 
despised  (MS-)Dos as ridiulous, like Steve Jobs thought us in his short 
comercial when he tries to open a spread sheet in does and makes fun of MS-Dos 
in 1992 (!) You can watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMX_FuOLoCI

I will do this »resumée", maybe I can contribute somethinkg to the FreeDos 
project from a perspective of a person who just wants to be productive with 
FreeDos in Text composing/editing. Fullstop. 

Regards, 
Thomas


> On Sun,20210418- week15, at 14:46, JR  wrote:
> 
> Hi Thomas
> I have had a quick look at VDE. It is very nice in that it supports PCL 
> printers directly. Correct me if I am wrong but it appears that key bindings 
> cannot be changed. Sprint and MicroStar both allow customisation of key 
> bindings. On the Windows front I use TextPad as an editor. It also allows key 
> bindings to be changed. Boxer is another fine Editor but only supports a 
> single character after key modifier(Ctrl/ Alt). Eg. Ctrl K is valid but Ctrl 
> K X is not supported.
> Regards
> John
> 
> On 2021/04/15 15:47, Thomas Desi wrote:
>> I am sure you found this anyway: https://sites.google.com/site/vdeeditor/Home
>> -Th.
>> 
>>> Am 15.04.2021 um 15:44 schrieb JR :
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 2021/04/15 15:39, Thomas Desi wrote:
>>>> John,
>>>> VDE is nice, and it comes with „vinst.com“ which lets you customise the 
>>>> whole editor to the users needs/liking/workflow
>>> Thanks, I will be taking a close look.
>>>> I am looking forward to try the Sprint Program!
>>>> 
>>>> Note: I am looking for an easy converted ASCII <-> UTF8.
>>>> Have you any knowledge of such a beast?
>>> Unfortunately not.
>>>> Regards, Thanks again for offering in case a copy,
>>> Shout if needed and I will upload to Box and send you a link.
>>>> Thomas
>>> PS. What part of the world are you in. I am in Cape Town, South Africa.
>>> 
>>>>> Am 15.04.2021 um 15:34 schrieb JR :
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Thomas
>>>>> I have only ever used version 1.01. It was distributed on nearly a dozen 
>>>>> 5" floppy disks and 3 printed manuals, User's Guide, Advanced User's 
>>>>> Guide and Reference Guide. It has a few quirks but is very stable 
>>>>> compared to many modern WP's. It also has a scripting language but I'm 
>>>>> not wild about it. You are welcome to a copy if it isn't already 
>>>>> available on the web.
>>>>> I have just looked up VDE and will investigate, thanks. I tried one of 
>>>>> the later DOS versions of WordStar which had a Wysiwyg preview option 
>>>>> which could help with page breaks before printing. I didn't like it and 
>>>>> stayed with Sprint. Also looked at Brief and other popular WP's (can't 
>>>>> remember their names) at the time before I chose Sprint.
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> John
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 2021/04/15 14:59, Thomas Desi wrote:
>>>>>> Hi John,
>>>>>> thanks for your experience account and software list.
>>>>>> I am intrigued - as »collecting« word processors/text editors in the 
>>>>>> "quest for the best« - I managed to find
>>>>>> the foll

[Freedos-user] Why I use DOS a.k.a. FreeDOS for Dummies?

[Thomas Desi]

FreeDOS for Dummies?


(NB. This is a short sum-up of my (brief) encounter and experience with 
FreeDos, as from a user perspective (in contrast to a “tech” person, like a 
programer or computer technician etc. I like to continue my experience.)

1. I always had a prejudice against MS-DOS because of “M$” or/and because I 
thought it is a system with too few commands, compared to the UNIX set. - And, 
obviously I considered it completely obsolete.

2. This said I wouldn’t have tried it or installed it without a certain editor 
in mind I discovered was for DOS, but not working in the Command-line app 
(neither in Win10,WinXp, Win7). This is where FreeDos came in.

3. I was surprised that FreeDos was not “abandon-ware” (!) but actively 
developed and maintained and has a Mailing-List. Which is active. I came in, 
when the “Stallman-flame-war” was heating up… Anyway, I have since had good and 
helpful replies from many people who have a great knowledge of intricate 
technical questions.

4. Some downsides, so far: 
• I never managed to install Freedos on a harddisk via the “live CD 
1.3” or 1.2 version (image). All of them just stopped in telling me “packages 
not found”. (For whatever reason. I gave up after some googleing and saw other 
people had encountered similar problems and said it is the BIOS and this and 
that... I stopped trying. It just takes too much time without a clear reason, 
what to do, uncertain result. - (Note: I tried on a “MSI” laptop, a Samsung 
“Netbook”, and an ITX Minicomputer) // I finally accomplished to install it on 
the ITX via USB stick (with the freedos1.2.img) on it. However, “fdimples” 
still is an enigma to me… it’s not available on that .img by calling it as a 
command. But I don’t think I need it.
• The USB “Problem”: has been discussed in the mailing list recently. 
Honestly I don’t consider it an advantage to FreeDos having to boot a linux 
system just to get to my DOS-.txt-files from the harddisk… (My ITX / 
Bios/Freedos lets me transfer files to/fro USB Stick when booted from stick. 
This is ok, so I can work with it, as startup time is very short. A couple of 
seconds only. But booting from C: should recognize a USB-Stick present at 
booting and be read/writeable. 
• Printing is still waiting -- haven’t had time to fiddle with that. It 
just didn’t work out of the box with my editors (LaserJet & Centronics cable). 
I have no hopes to make it work, really… maybe “someday”...
• Codepage (UTF-8 support? Maybe not possible without a converter 
program? »Boček« Editor can save in UTF mode in DOS.) 
• Whilst trying to make it work for my needs I get the feeling there is 
much discussion about technical (historical?) details, which might be of 
interest to some specialists. I get the idea that DOS (“Disk Operating System”) 
is a sealed book for the initiated and not for ordinary people. This doesn’t 
comfort me if I just want to save my files to a usb stick or print out on paper 
a letter, feeling completely stupid after years and years of computer use on 
all platforms. But, I am not a »coder« or tech.

5. Advantages IMHO: All what has been said in the “Why do you use DOS?”-thread 
- and more!


6. Final thoughts
“We” (me, user-people) see a computer as an omnipresent “all-purpose” thing. 
The industry makes us believe that is has to be fun, easy to use, performative, 
stylish, multi-user, password-protected, videoconference-abled, netflixed, 
youtubed, musiced, telephoneed, typewritered, medical diagnosis machineed, 
internet deviced, and rocketed flying you to Mars … there is no end. Obviously 
this leads to the gigantomastia 12GB of Windows ed.al. and the daily 
update-itis. Size doesn’t matter much today, but it is overkill and a complete 
mess to a single person, also regarding privacy… Let’s not go into this here. 

FreeDos, on the other hand, could be a surprisingly worthy alternative for 
those who have only basic needs in computing - or very specialized ones (which 
could be realized with the DOS means). Lean as in “vegetarian steak”, 
comprehensible in it’s logic as a computer system, stable (I guess), and - 
lean. (Again. This time: Fast)
Maybe I am too much of a purist, minimalist or so, - but I am VERY HAPPY if I 
CANNOT and DON’T NEED to tweak anything when I don’t need to choose fonts, 
sizes, colours etc. It is great with its minimal set of rules (=commands). It 
has been thought through, I accept it and work with it. Just start being 
productive. 
No internet browsing, no checking emails, no whatsappdesktop, no whatever 
networking, no virus, no commercials, no tracking, no listenings to music, no 
ordering unnecessary stuff from amazon, no watching 3 videos at the same time. 
(Anyway most people have Smartphones and Tablets to do all this!)

So there IS a purpose for DOS / FreeDos today which is more than 
“retrocomputing” or nostalgia or a “sign of age”. Pure Z.E.N. 
And by the way: WHY NOT a sig

Re: [Freedos-user] Why I use DOS a.k.a. FreeDOS for Dummies?

[Thomas Desi]

Hi Eric, thanks for the in-depth responses!

Drive letters:

> On Sun,20210418- week15, at 18:27, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> There are two problems: 1. where the installer expects the packages
> in terms of drive letters 

Yes, this was the problem. However, I don’t know anything technical about all 
this, but I remember:

A:

B:

used to be floppy drives (I have none inbuilt in my itx, and haven't seen 
inbuilt floppy drives for a while...)


C: to me is known as the main drive (windows...!) 

D: showed as another USB stick (if present)

When I booted from the  USB-CDrom drive (with the freedos image on it), it has 
no letter assigned (right? - I think FreeDOS even prints it)

—> couldn’t a letter be assigned by the »system« itself or (better?): why would 
it need a letter at all (?excuse my illiteracy on all of this, just guessing 
wildly), can’t the installer reference to its »own location« and find the 
packages which are all just next to the installer on the same disc?

And … if the installer tells me bluntly »packages not found« - this doesn’t 
help me as a user at all. 

Instead, if that instruction message would say: »Go back to DOS and type 
»fdisk«" (or whatever command it needs, like a very short how-to-do 
instruction,) 
- or BETTER
give a hint to a helpful »readme.txt« on the installer CDrom what to do if 
something goes wrong with the drive letters and it can’t find the packages, 
next in order to install FreeDOS … I could have helped myself out of it. 
I could even take a photo from the screen instructions with my Smartphone and 
follow the steps if they are to long to memorize, or copy on paper the 
commands. Better than nothing! (Excuses for my naivité!)

This is what I ment by saying »for the initiated« : once you KNOW, it seems 
hard to understand how another person can't do it… 
(I just rewatched Jim Halls video https://youtu.be/On5eZdDGsCo on this, which 
gives a good intro, but only if the packages are found… :D - also the resizing 
of the partition to 240MB isn’t a widespread knowledge...)

I don’t cosider formatting and partitioning a hd a trivial thing to do, 
especially given the presence of another OS. (And if there is a »dual boot« , 
i.e. I could choose to re-activate the other OS.) – By the way, on my ITX was a 
Windows 7 professionel installed which I finally  (willfully?) erased 
installing FreeDOS from the USB image. That is ok so far, unless I don’t want 
the Win7 back

Thank you for the instructions, Eric, to have a better USB approach. Bret 
Johnson responded helpfully how USB on DOS could work, too. -

Regards, Thomas  

___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

[Freedos-user] Dual Boot FreeDOS + WINDOWS ?

[Thomas Desi]

Hi Eric, thanks for the great reply (again!)

Yes, indeed, this sounds very interesting:  (and maybe also to other folks, to 
work with,  try or get to know FreeDOS.)

> On Sun,20210418- week15, at 21:01, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> So depending on how much you want
> it, we could write some howto about how to create a dual
> boot system with Linux (or Windows) 

A dual boot Windows+FreeDos would be absolutely my preferred system for some 
reasons. 
(I guess I could access files created on FreeDOS applications also from 
Windows. Excellent!)

I am ready to start right away to reformat the HD if I could boot DOS or WIN!…
(The only question for me, what Windows to use… and where to get it. Another 
one of those silly questions! Sorry… but windows is everywhere and nowhere)

I have another HP »thin client« (from 2007) with "XP embedded" installed (no 
hd, only flash memory inside). I wonder if »XP embedded« could be used? (MS 
offers a free download 
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=26558). Is this usable?

Best regards, looking fwd what’s coming next, 
- Thomas



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Why I use DOS a.k.a. FreeDOS for Dummies?

[Thomas Desi]

On Sun,20210418- week15, at 21:01, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> Keep me posted about your USB driver adventures :-)
will do. 
Some info I found here: http://www.bootdisk.com/usb.htm
-Th___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Why I use DOS a.k.a. FreeDOS for Dummies?

[Thomas Desi]

> On Sun,20210418- week15, at 22:33, Ralf Quint  wrote:
> 
> expect that you don't have to do a few things in a more manual way 

This is correct; but it is for me also a learning process (=read: discovery 
etc.) in learning how the tools work technicall, more then we are used in the 
current consumer-oriented »click here« world.
I am/would be ready to walk that extra mile if I know its worth it/ if 
necessary to get somewhere.

Thomas___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Print via USB

[Thomas Desi]

Hi, Bryan,

because I am fiddling with similar questions.
(Can’t compete anywhere near to the proficient replies of Eric and Frantisek 
though!)

If using a USB keyboard (and USB mouse), there is the problem that when 
starting the USB driver (USBUHCI from Bret Johnsons USButils collection), the 
Keyboard stops working. So you can’t start the keyboard driver next, which 
seems should done to get somewhere. Mr. Johnson was kindly replying to my 
inquiry on this. 
So my approach at the moment ist using a PS/2 Keyboard and Mouse to avoid this 
problem. („Hardware solution“)

As Eric ed. al. are pointing out, I have to agree that USB isn’t at all what I 
thought it was: neither „Universal“ in the sense of „easy“ nor „universal 
including DOS".
On my ITX with a recent Bios. that Bios lets me use USB mouse and keyboard 
nicely right from booting, also a trackpad with no problem. So it also seems to 
be much a question what the inbuilt BIOS supports.

Regarding printing I think there are two basic concepts: 
Using fonts from the printer (I call this „generic“, but maybe this is my 
private lingo)
or using graphics from the computer. 
As I am only interested in printing out pure text (A-Z, 1-0  :)  I wonder if 
you attempt to print out graphics or some special fonts or so?
Might make a difference, too?

I also had tried printing using the Centronics cable/port. Thanks to Eric for 
COPY x.txt PRN
or 
COPY x.pdf LPT1


I will try again ;)

Just a user experience… 
regards, 
Th.

> Am 20.04.2021 um 16:37 schrieb Frantisek Rysanek :
> 
> Dear Mr. Kilgallin,
> 
> your request is less obvious than may have initially seemd to you.
> 
> DOS knows an OS-level "device" called LPT1. And, most software for 
> DOS that needs to print, can use this software-level LPT1 device 
> (using a DOS service to print).
> 
> DOS and BIOS work together to forward data from LPT1 to the physical 
> parallel port (i8255 compatible hardware, if my memory serves).
> To this day, most PC's still contain SuperIO chips (on LPC bus, 
> backward compatible with ISA) that still have the ability to 
> implement the LPT, but few modern motherboards actually have a 
> physical LPT... (and therefore the SuperIO chips aren't even 
> configured to decode the addresses anymore, 0x378 and whatnot. No 
> use.)
> But, yours is a different problem: your printer does not even have 
> LPT "input". You really do need to somehow spoonfeed the data into 
> the USB port. 
> Technically, a USB printer shows up on the USB bus as a "USB LPT 
> device", or "USBLP". The USB standard has a "device class" for this, 
> and modern operating systems have a generic class-based driver for 
> this... which is not the case of MS-DOS.
> 
> Effectively, you need a stack of USB drivers for DOS, that will make 
> use of a USB host controller (UHCI / EHCI / XHCI), enumerate the bus, 
> and upon encountering a USBLP device, load a generic class-based 
> driver for that device. Presenting a legacy LPT1 software device in 
> MS-DOS, and feeding the data to the USB LPT physical port.
> 
> To the best of my knowledge, there's a single driver package of this 
> kind that I know about, working on bare metal in pure old DOS - the 
> one by Bret Johnson:
> http://bretjohnson.us/
> 
> More prose about USB printing in DOS:
> https://www.wpuniverse.com/vb/showthread.php?38551-Print-to-USB-printe
> r-in-pure-MS-DOS-system/page2&s=8f49961ada033bce8d27f50b29967cd1
> 
> Bret Johnson's driver only supports UHCI controllers, which were only 
> included in the PC chipsets up to and including Intel 4x series 
> (coming with the 45nm Core2 generation of CPU's). After that, it's 
> pure USB EHCI 2.0 only. Until about Skylake, which is USB 3.0 XHCI 
> only...
> 
> Apparently, you are lucky, because the OptiPlex GX270 appears to be a 
> Pentium 4 generation PC. Already supporting USB 2.0 and having an 
> EHCI, but in addition to that, all the USB ports are also available 
> via an UHCI (USB 1.1 controller). So I suggest that you give Brett's 
> driver a try.
> 
> An alternative approach might be, to attach the USB printer to a 
> Windows PC and share the printer on the network, and install a 
> Microsoft Network client for MS-DOS on your DOS-only PC, and map the 
> LPT1 over the network to your Windows PC. This LPT mapping is done 
> using the "net use" command. But, you need to be able to configure 
> the networking stuff, preferably over TCP/IP nowadays. Note that 
> making the MS Network client from the DOS era talk to a modern 
> Windows machine in the server role can be a challenge in itself. If 
> you're lucky, you can learn about registry entries that dumb down the 
> security mechanisms in Windows enough to accept the shitty ancient 
> security model used by the DOS client... I don't promise that this 
> still has a chance of success in Windows 10. I believe it does have a 
> chance against Samba in Linux, which I'm still using to serv8e 
> PXE-booted diskless clients (for disk mapping, not for printi

Re: [Freedos-user] Dual Boot FreeDOS + WINDOWS ?

[Thomas Desi]

Hi Eric, 

inspired by your mail (and also help from others in the list! Thank you, 
folks!) I did the following: 

- I made a simple check of booting times:
(startup when I hit the computers power button till the moment the 
system is working)

FreeDOS starting from HD23 sec
FreeDOS starting from USBstick  16 sec (this is inside my editor - 
autostart - and I can type already into a text!)

Windows7 fresh install  59 sec (but not in the editor)

So I did the following:

- install Windows 7
- resize/format a separat 200 MB FAT partition (called „FDOS“)

Now I can do the following:

+ hit the computer POWER ON and start working 16 seconds later (FreeDos, 
Text-Editor)
+  d:(change drive to see the „FDOS“ partition on the HDisk)
+  COPY (or MV) files from the Stick to the HDisk or back
+ save directly to the FDOS partition on the HDisk when in my editor

…and obviously do all stuff (printing!) when I boot into Windows7

This is working nicely for me. No rocket science but a working system.
Looking at the  endless problems I encountered with trying to solve the USB/HD, 
printing issue,  the hard way (which I wouldn’t be able to do anyway)
I am quite happy with this configuration. 

Regarding the boot-time of 16 secs this is even better than booting from HD 
which doesn’t give me any advantage anyway.
So if my FreeDOS bootingstick might become corrupt one day, I just have a copy 
at hand. Files are either on HD or separate Discs save.

Thanks for your suggestions and help, 
- Thomas


> Am 18.04.2021 um 22:25 schrieb Eric Auer :
> 
> 
> Hi Thomas,
> 
>> A dual boot Windows+FreeDos would be absolutely my preferred system...
> 
> Can your Windows version resize itself? Can it create a FAT partition
> for DOS in some other way? Then I think you should do that, maybe
> already copy the contents of the DOS install disk there and boot
> the DOS installer. In the installer, you can now skip the step of
> partitioning and formatting the harddisk and just tell it to use
> the FAT partition as install target. If your Windows itself uses
> NTFS partitions, the FAT partition will be the only one visible
> to DOS and it will be used as C: by DOS after install. It might
> have another drive letter during install if C: is already used by
> the install CD or USB stick, of course.
> 
> Obviously, you should only use a Windows version of which you have
> a license. If that is not the case, it probably is not worth the
> effort to install ANY Windows at all. You can just dual-boot with
> DOS and Linux then and let your Windows apps run in Wine on Linux.
> 
> If you want a dual-boot system with Windows and Linux, the same
> strategy as above should work: Use Linux to resize itself, or
> maybe easier, tell it to create a FAT partition for DOS already
> while you install Linux. Then boot the DOS install disk (CD, DVD
> or USB stick) and tell the installer to use that FAT parttiion,
> without FDISK changing partitions and without formatting.
> 
> I have no idea what XP embedded can do or cannot do, but when
> in doubt, it probably can do a lot less than Linux, because it
> sounds like a stripped-down version of XP and XP is very old.
> 
> Regards, Eric
> 
> PS: The FAT partition for DOS should be a LBA partition and it
> must be a primary (not extended / logical) partition, because
> it is complicated to configure DOS to boot properly otherwise.
> 
> You need to keep that in mind when making / resizing partitions,
> but it should be quite feasible with GPARTED in Linux or maybe
> with built-in or 3rd party tools of more modern Windows versions.
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Why I use DOS a.k.a. FreeDOS for Dummies?

[Thomas Desi]

There are many different reasons why people would want to install FreeDOS (if 
they get to know it).
„ Different" like in „different people“. The needs and equipments are different 
and the mixture of technical generations
should not restrain FreeDOS, IMHO, to „retro computing“ and nostalgia only. 
Nostalgia is very much ok and brings up new and other thoughts, too. But there 
is 2021, too.
I understand that there is a difference when installing on to Harddisk and 
booting, or just having a USB Stick and using it on top of Linux or Windows. 
It depends, as I say, on what people want, and - what they could want if the 
just knew…

Documentation for FreeDOS should include CAVEATS about what would be more 
complicated to achieve or maybe impossible at all. (See the discussion about 
cheap printers, the missing concept of „drivers“, the whole USB complex, the 
combination of old+ new hardware, ports … The importance of BIOS for FreeDOS...)

I know that this is not the responsibility of those who keep FreeDOS alive and 
continue working on it, to provide such infos, tips, tricks and documentation. 
Maybe there are books about it out there, or concise info. But the whole 
tragedy with forums, blogs, lists is that valuable information is scattered.

I  am saying this because I can’t spend too much time as a ordinary user going 
in circles to find out that my expectations, based on the consumer approach we 
now have, were wrong regarding DOS. And I have seen e.g. Bret Johnson giving 
his advices on USB with great patience a couple of times repeating in short 
time. He did a great documentation on his USB utils, and Eric provided a List 
with other USB utils, so this seems a returning issue which could be summed up 
once and for a while on the website?

It is, no doubt, great to find out how things worked and are working in 
computing, but not everybody has the background and technical knowledge, or is 
willing to try to find out non trivial (historical) details.

Could anyone recommend me some good, working documentation on the caveats, 
issues, impossible things, and „best practice models“ to use Freedos today? 
Could this be linked to the FreeDos site?
Included on the installation FreeDos CD/USB / liveCd. (By the way, I guess that 
when I use a USB external CD Drive this might be the problem that neither 1.2 
nor 1.3 could „find packages“ and exited…?) 

Regards, 
Thomas


> Am 22.04.2021 um 10:16 schrieb Bryan Kilgallin :
> 
> Thanks, Jerome:
> 
> Thanks for your efforts.
> 
>>> I agree that there should be documentation about how the
>>> install process works which can help you to push it a bit
>>> when it gets stuck at some point. Of course the documents
>>> should be available online, also outside the install disk.
>> Better documentation would be nice. But, I’ve only got so
>> much spare time.
> 
> I like documentation! As to whether or not I attempt something.
> -- 
> members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Why I use DOS a.k.a. FreeDOS for Dummies?

[Thomas Desi]

Hi Ralf,

good to focus on the “whys”. 

You said:

| “Nor would I do any graphics work in DOS, or any word 
| processing these days.”

I did get into DOS because of “word processing”.

More precisely it is a text-processing tool(!) EVA.EXE which was developed by 
Primož Jakopin in the 1970ies and 80ies, ported to TOS on Atari, in the 1990ies 
to DOS and WINDOWS. I re-discovered it last year on his site and also got in 
good contact with him. He still is working on it...

I am especially interested in how the MOUSE is used in this particular program.

1.) The cursor can be “bound” to the mouse pointer. Move around in your text 
without the need to click your cursor into the text, which makes literally 
thousands of clicks obsolete. (Ergonomy)

2.) The mouse buttons can be assigned (in the Windows version) with whatever 
function you want.  In the DOS version, it is assigned to LEFT=Delete 
RIGHT=Insert which make sense in this editor.

I was researching the net and looking at many editors but never found this 
feature anywhere else. But in FreeDOS: Amazingly, the mouse  in VDE Editor for 
DOS behaves the same way (without assigning commands to the mouse buttons, 
however. - This can be achieved using Bret Johson’s excellent “MOUSKEYS”)

This singular feature makes me cope with the downsides of DOS but I have more 
reasons to use DOS. (I did already mention them in earlier Emails.)

Moreover, I am a German native and Primož Jakopin is from Slovenia. Especially 
the letter was a challenge in the past (ASCII code page) to get all diacritics 
right. This has changed since, using UTF-8, which has appeared in DOS via 
MinEd, Blocek ed. al.

And when it comes to “retro-computing”, it’s not all about hardware only.

Still an excellent tool I consider TROFF, now GROFF, for Unix/Linux -which also 
exists for Windows, appeared in 1990 (Version 0.3.1) by James Clark) coming 
from  “a text-formatting program called RUNOFF, which was written by Jerome H. 
Saltzer for MIT's CTSS operating system in the mid-1960s! 

If one focuses on text-processing, editing or “word processing” and looking at 
the development there is really little progress even possible.

I use the MARKDOWN syntax in FreeDOS which is very cool and can easily later be 
used for websites or printing when exported.
I am still wondering if there might be a comparable product like the 
“Raspberry” but for an architecture that allows for FreeDOS natively?

Regards, 
Thomas


> On Thu,20210422- week16, at 18:55, Ralf Quint  wrote:
> 
> On 4/22/2021 3:21 AM, Thomas Desi wrote:
>> There are many different reasons why people would want to install FreeDOS 
>> (if they get to know it).
>> „ Different" like in „different people“. The needs and equipments are 
>> different and the mixture of technical generations
>> should not restrain FreeDOS, IMHO, to „retro computing“ and nostalgia only. 
>> Nostalgia is very much ok and brings up new and other thoughts, too. But 
>> there is 2021, too.
>> I understand that there is a difference when installing on to Harddisk and 
>> booting, or just having a USB Stick and using it on top of Linux or Windows.
>> It depends, as I say, on what people want, and - what they could want if the 
>> just knew…
> Well, here I think lays a huge problem for us (the FreeDOS project), a lot of 
> people don't seem to know what they want. There are always a number of people 
> showing up at random times, who come up with all kinds of glorious ideas or 
> serious (in their eyes) complaints as what to add or change in FreeDOS. 
> Which, when looked at it at the baseline of those ideas, would result in a 
> second coming of Linux.
> These are a lot of times people that voice their grievances about how bad 
> Windows/Microsoft is, even if the only practical reason is that it seems to 
> be en vogue in certain circle to bash on Windows/Microsoft.
> Or there are those people that can't cope with the alleged complexity of 
> Linux, thinking of (Free)DOS as being their savior, but then requiring all 
> those complexities, which would result in something that is looking like just 
> another Linux. Or Windows. Or macOS...
> 
> It seems to be hard for some people to see that FreeDOS is indeed a lot more 
> retro than cutting edge. And that some things just are not a real fit for 
> FreeDOS. Like someone on the FB page recently suggesting that it would be 
> great to have a Apache/MySQL/PHP stack on FreeDOS. Without actually thinking 
> about or realizing that the very design of DOS makes such an endeavor rather 
> unfeasible...
> 
> How do I use FreeDOS? Well, not as an everyday tool. I certainly won't bother 
> to use the Internet (email, web browsing, etc) with it. Those are things that 
> I can do much easier,much more efficient in Linux or Windows. Nor would I do 
> any graphi

[Freedos-user] Why I use DOS a.k.a. FreeDOS for Dummies?

[Thomas Desi]

Hi Ralf,

good to focus on the “whys”. 

You said:

| “Nor would I do any graphics work in DOS, or any word 
| processing these days.”

I did get into DOS because of “word processing”.

More precisely it is a text-processing tool(!) EVA.EXE which was developed by 
Primož Jakopin in the 1970ies and 80ies, ported to TOS on Atari, in the 1990ies 
to DOS and WINDOWS. I re-discovered it last year on his site and also got in 
good contact with him. He still is working on it...

I am especially interested in how the MOUSE is used in this particular program.

1.) The cursor can be “bound” to the mouse pointer. Move around in your text 
without the need to click your cursor into the text, which makes literally 
thousands of clicks obsolete. (Ergonomy)

2.) The mouse buttons can be assigned (in the Windows version) with whatever 
function you want. In the DOS version, it is assigned to LEFT=Delete 
RIGHT=Insert which make sense in this editor.

I was researching the net and looking at many editors but never found this 
feature anywhere else. But in FreeDOS: Amazingly, the mouse  in VDE Editor for 
DOS behaves the same way (without assigning commands to the mouse buttons, 
however. - This can be achieved using Bret Johson’s excellent “MOUSKEYS”)

This singular feature makes me cope with the downsides of DOS but I have more 
reasons to use DOS. (I did already mention them in earlier Emails.)

Moreover, I am a German native and Primož Jakopin is from Slovenia. Especially 
the letter was a challenge in the past (ASCII code page) to get all diacritics 
right. This has changed since, using UTF-8, which has appeared in DOS via 
MinEd, Blocek ed. al.

And when it comes to “retro-computing”, it’s not all about hardware only.

Still an excellent tool I consider TROFF, now GROFF, for Unix/Linux -which also 
exists for Windows, appeared in 1990 (Version 0.3.1) by James Clark) coming 
from  “a text-formatting program called RUNOFF, which was written by Jerome H. 
Saltzer for MIT's CTSS operating system in the mid-1960s! 

If one focuses on text-processing, editing or “word processing” and looking at 
the development there is really little progress even possible.

I use the MARKDOWN syntax in FreeDOS which is very cool and can easily later be 
used for websites or printing when exported.
I am still wondering if there might be a comparable product like the 
“Raspberry” but for an architecture that allows for FreeDOS natively?

Regards, 
Thomas




___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Why I use DOS a.k.a. FreeDOS for Dummies?

[Thomas Desi]

Interesting!
Some „folding“, like in VIM (zf)  and others could be used as „outliner“.

http://www.outliners.com/ is unfortunately a 404 
(April 26, 2021,19:29)

I will give https://www.vdos.info/download.html 
 a try if I can run something on it. 
;9
Thanks, Thomas


> Am 26.04.2021 um 18:59 schrieb Liam Proven :
> 
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 at 06:01, Ralf Quint  wrote:
> 
>> I am not sure if that is any more efficient for at least 99.99% of all
>> use cases then using LibreOfiice/OpenOffice Writer, Microsoft Word or
>> WordPerfect on Windows or Linux GUI based systems.
> 
> It depends what you want or need.
> 
> In my day job as a text writer, I mostly work in DocBook XML or
> AsciiDoc, so I use FOSS editors for Linux that understand those
> formats.
> 
> As a journalist and freelance tech writer, I mostly worked in an outliner.
> 
> http://www.outliners.com/
> 
> This used to be a major category for DOS and in the DOS era there were many.
> 
> https://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/6291
> 
> However, these days, only one major WP still includes an outliner: MS
> Word. For this reason, I keep an old copy of Word under WINE on my
> Linux laptops: usually Word 97. None of the rest of Office, just Word.
> 
> Sadly there is nothing else like its outliner any more. WPS Office has
> one but it's very clunky and I find WPS Office to have a bad UI these
> days -- it is mandatory Ribbon-style, which I hate. It used to have
> proper menus, but those old versions had a poor, barely-working
> outliner. LibreOffice doesn't have one at all, and nor does any other
> FOSS tool I know.
> 
> (Note, there are 2 kinds of outliner: intrinsic and extrinsic.
> Extrinsic or 2-pane outliners are a sort of mind-mapping or organizing
> tool. Only intrinsic ones are any use to me as a writer. Sadly there
> are plentiful FOSS extrinsic  outliners but they're no use to me.)
> 
> 
> -- 
> Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
> Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
> UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Why I use DOS a.k.a. FreeDOS for Dummies?

[Thomas Desi]

Hi Jim, 
yes, the roff-troff-groff (sounds like barking?) story reminds me in some way 
to FreeDos.
Compared to LaTex (or Tex), groff is so much leaner and easier. It is still 
well maintained and usable.
It allows output to html, text, ps, pdf… and regarding typsetting hardly 
anything coming near, if one has the eye for it. The source file can easily be 
created by any DOS editor. The rendering can be done on *ux, Windwos or Mac.

Groff -MOM was a »nice try« for prose writing, but to have all those long 
instructions to type, feels counterproductive. if you would want to have a very 
beautiful typesetted novel or book, (better avoid images!) - and have some time 
to understand the inner workings of »-mom«, this might be the best rendering.

You are right, Jim, the -me and -ms instructions are so handy and short that I 
don’t think -mom ever cought on. It is though really well documentated. 

So, new products aren’t better because they are new… We can observe that most 
dynamics are around »marketing« and about specialising (like using Indesgin 
ed.al. for typesetting).

I already mentioned »Markdown« (or use ».fountain« for scripts with dialogues 
in it). This is easy to write on any editor (DOS!) and then render it on a 
»daily machine«.

Obviously most of us have at least two computers, one for »daily life«, using 
linux, windows or MacOS, and another for fun or nostalgia or how you would call 
it. This gains even more momentum, when I go to work on my DOS itx to just 
focus on writing. It’s like a better typewriter for me because I can save the 
work and send it digitally. 

The bottom line here is that I set a »red line« for me what NOT to try with 
DOS. This red line defines for me a point, where a recent system would win. So 
if I use DOS, it has to be »bare metal« to get the essence of it: simplicity, 
speed, privacy. (printing, USB… now I understand are more like »can it be 
done?« for fun. If you have the time and knowledge.)

-Thomas

NB: The typwriter has really become obsolete, but mechanical typewriters at the 
moment sell beautifully. Aesthetics? Computer aesthetics (!?) are quite 
»different«… 




> On Mon,20210426- week17, at 23:45, Jim Hall  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 12:45 AM TK Chia  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Ralf,
>> 
 Still an excellent tool I consider TROFF, now GROFF, for Unix/Linux
 -which also exists for Windows, appeared in 1990 (Version 0.3.1) by
 James Clark) coming from  “a text-formatting program called RUNOFF,
 which was written by Jerome H. Saltzer for MIT's CTSS operating system
 in the mid-1960s!
>> 
>>> I wouldn't touch any of that stuff with a barge pole these days. Either
>>> LibreOffice Writer already fits the bill, or I would much rather use a
>>> tool like Scribus these days...
>> 
>> troff (as groff) is still very much alive today, as far as I can tell.
>> And the troff format is still the default source format for man pages on
>> Linux.  It is quite a good format for the job, if you ask me.
>> 
> 
> I use a mix of different tools for my tech writing. I write for a few
> places, mostly OpenSource.com and CloudSavvy IT.
> 
> I use groff just often enough that I remember how to use groff. I
> usually use the -me macro set. I tried to adapt to -mom but I think my
> mind is still "geared" for -me macros. :-)
> 
> I also write a lot of tech articles in raw HTML. I use HTML when I
> can't get the formatting I want through other means. What I like about
> using HTML5 is the semantic code, so the tags hold some meaning. This
> is also a great addition for screen readers and other accessibility
> tools, so the tools can help the user navigate and consume the
> document.
> 
> But for most of my tech writing, I use a word processor, and send the
> output to my editor. I run Linux as my desktop, and I prefer
> LibreOffice Writer. It's a great tool.
> 
> When I need to generate something for print (like flyers or postcards
> for my business, etc) I use Scribus. I find Scribus takes some time to
> figure out, but it's still easy to figure out. The learning curve
> isn't too steep.
> 
> 
> That said, when I do any writing on DOS, I like to use a word
> processor. I used several DOS word processors "back in the day." In
> high school, I learned how to use WordPerfect, so I used WordPerfect
> when I went to university. But the upgrade for WordPerfect was pretty
> expensive (I think $300 for a student copy) so instead I switched to a
> shareware word processor called Galaxy (I think $99). At a third of
> the price, Galaxy had all the features I needed to write papers for
> class.
> 
> These days, my favorite DOS word processor is Microsoft Word for DOS.
> Microsoft released a copy for free on their download.microsoft.com
> website. It feels quite modern compared to today's word processors.
> The key combinations that you just "assume" on today's word processors
> work in Word for DOS. Ctrl-i for italics, ctrl-b for bold, etc. That
> works well for me.
> 
> 

Re: [Freedos-user] Why I use DOS a.k.a. FreeDOS for Dummies?

[Thomas Desi]

Hi Liam, 

maybe this is not the place to ask, but, vDOS looks nice. Strangely it can not 
run the »Eve.exe«.
(Neither does DOSbox). Funny. Only FreeDOS allows. Might be a video issue.

regards, 
Thomas

> On Mon,20210426- week17, at 18:59, Liam Proven  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 at 06:01, Ralf Quint  wrote:
> 
>> I am not sure if that is any more efficient for at least 99.99% of all
>> use cases then using LibreOfiice/OpenOffice Writer, Microsoft Word or
>> WordPerfect on Windows or Linux GUI based systems.
> 
> It depends what you want or need.
> 
> In my day job as a text writer, I mostly work in DocBook XML or
> AsciiDoc, so I use FOSS editors for Linux that understand those
> formats.
> 
> As a journalist and freelance tech writer, I mostly worked in an outliner.
> 
> http://www.outliners.com/
> 
> This used to be a major category for DOS and in the DOS era there were many.
> 
> https://www.outlinersoftware.com/topics/viewt/6291
> 
> However, these days, only one major WP still includes an outliner: MS
> Word. For this reason, I keep an old copy of Word under WINE on my
> Linux laptops: usually Word 97. None of the rest of Office, just Word.
> 
> Sadly there is nothing else like its outliner any more. WPS Office has
> one but it's very clunky and I find WPS Office to have a bad UI these
> days -- it is mandatory Ribbon-style, which I hate. It used to have
> proper menus, but those old versions had a poor, barely-working
> outliner. LibreOffice doesn't have one at all, and nor does any other
> FOSS tool I know.
> 
> (Note, there are 2 kinds of outliner: intrinsic and extrinsic.
> Extrinsic or 2-pane outliners are a sort of mind-mapping or organizing
> tool. Only intrinsic ones are any use to me as a writer. Sadly there
> are plentiful FOSS extrinsic  outliners but they're no use to me.)
> 
> 
> -- 
> Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
> Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
> UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Why I use DOS a.k.a. FreeDOS for Dummies?

[Thomas Desi]

Ralf, 

yes, efficiency might even be something or personal preference, I am not sure. 
I am fiddling with a „made-to-measure“ keyboard and stuff to get a single task 
system for me with mouse/foot-pedal and dedicated keys woven together, using 
non proprietory software („FreeDOS“ instead of Windows)

T.

> Am 26.04.2021 um 05:59 schrieb Ralf Quint :
> 
> On 4/23/2021 1:44 PM, Thomas Desi wrote:
>> Hi Ralf,
>> 
>> good to focus on the “whys”.
>> 
>> You said:
>> 
>> | “Nor would I do any graphics work in DOS, or any word
>> | processing these days.”
>> 
>> I did get into DOS because of “word processing”.
>> 
>> More precisely it is a text-processing tool(!) EVA.EXE which was developed 
>> by Primož Jakopin in the 1970ies and 80ies, ported to TOS on Atari, in the 
>> 1990ies to DOS and WINDOWS. I re-discovered it last year on his site and 
>> also got in good contact with him. He still is working on it...
> I am not sure if that is any more efficient for at least 99.99% of all use 
> cases then using LibreOfiice/OpenOffice Writer, Microsoft Word or WordPerfect 
> on Windows or Linux GUI based systems.
>> Moreover, I am a German native and Primož Jakopin is from Slovenia. 
>> Especially the letter was a challenge in the past (ASCII code page) to get 
>> all diacritics right. This has changed since, using UTF-8, which has 
>> appeared in DOS via MinEd, Blocek ed. al.
> But that is heavily dependent on those application, as anything but single 
> byte ASCII variations aren't native to DOS...
>> Still an excellent tool I consider TROFF, now GROFF, for Unix/Linux -which 
>> also exists for Windows, appeared in 1990 (Version 0.3.1) by James Clark) 
>> coming from  “a text-formatting program called RUNOFF, which was written by 
>> Jerome H. Saltzer for MIT's CTSS operating system in the mid-1960s!
> I wouldn't touch any of that stuff with a barge pole these days. Either 
> LibreOffice Writer already fits the bill, or I would much rather use a tool 
> like Scribus these days...
>> I am still wondering if there might be a comparable product like the 
>> “Raspberry” but for an architecture that allows for FreeDOS natively?
> 
> Yes, there are such products, unfortunately not for the same price point...
> 
> Ralf
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

[Freedos-user] DOS on (very) small form factor PCs?

[Thomas Desi]

What are the experiences using (very)very small form factor PCs for Freedos 
native?

I found this one
https://www.solid-run.com/ 

on

https://hackaday.com/2016/09/30/very-very-tiny-x86-systems/#:~:text=The%20latest%20release%20from%20SolidRun,from%20the%20tiniest%20PC%20ever.

"The SolidPC Q4 is one of the smallest x86 implementation you can find. It’s 
based around the MicroSoM, a module even smaller than a Raspberry Pi, and built 
around a carrier board that has all the ports you could ever want from the 
tiniest PC ever.“

-Thomas___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] DOS on (very) small form factor PCs?

[Thomas Desi]

ooh sorry, my link was the wrong one: 
I ment thinks like these: 
https://www.spectra-austria.at/produkte/ipc-komponenten/industrielle-pc-boards/pico-itx/
 
<https://www.spectra-austria.at/produkte/ipc-komponenten/industrielle-pc-boards/pico-itx/>

t

> Am 28.04.2021 um 17:30 schrieb Thomas Desi :
> 
> What are the experiences using (very)very small form factor PCs for Freedos 
> native?
> 
> I found this one
> https://www.solid-run.com/ <https://www.solid-run.com/>
> 
> on
> 
> https://hackaday.com/2016/09/30/very-very-tiny-x86-systems/#:~:text=The%20latest%20release%20from%20SolidRun,from%20the%20tiniest%20PC%20ever
>  
> <https://hackaday.com/2016/09/30/very-very-tiny-x86-systems/#:~:text=The%20latest%20release%20from%20SolidRun,from%20the%20tiniest%20PC%20ever>.
> 
> "The SolidPC Q4 is one of the smallest x86 implementation you can find. It’s 
> based around the MicroSoM, a module even smaller than a Raspberry Pi, and 
> built around a carrier board that has all the ports you could ever want from 
> the tiniest PC ever.“
> 
> -Thomas
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] DOS on (very) small form factor PCs?

[Thomas Desi]

Ah, thanks, Frank. I don’t need sound, I actually don’t WANT sound ;)
(and no fans)

Th.

> On Wed,20210428- week17, at 22:55, Frantisek Rysanek 
>  wrote:
> 
> ...the board format does not matter much.
> It's the CPU model/generation that matters.
> For your practical purposes, those Pico-ITX boards behave just like 
> your regular PC with a similar CPU.
> 
> ATOM and the Core i3/5/7 machines will be all PCI-e and USB = not an 
> ideal platform for DOS. See the Vortex86DX on ICOP boards for 
> comparison. Much weaker CPU than an ATOM, but should be strong enough 
> for DOS-era software.
> https://www.icop.com.tw/product_list/44
> 
> Sadly, there's no SoundBlaster support - otherwise the VDX boards are 
> perfect for DOS.
> 
> Frank
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] DOS on (very) small form factor PCs?

[Thomas Desi]

speaking of „form factor“ I have to look at the „price factor“, too. 

The Spectra.at Board-Set, Mini-ITX H110 159315 comes EUR 769,- / Stk. (+ 
tax!!), delivery time 2-3 weeks…
(an no housing…)





> Am 29.04.2021 um 12:41 schrieb Adam Nielsen via Freedos-user 
> :
> 
>>> ...the board format does not matter much.
>>> It's the CPU model/generation that matters.  
>> 
>> NOT. AT. ALL.
>> 
>> each Intel/AMD CPU produced the last 20 years is able
>> to execute the same way that the previous versions did.
> 
> If it doesn't matter "at all" then where can I get a modern CPU with
> working support for ISA DMA?  It was removed back in one of the Pentium
> 4 chipsets so the CPU model/generation is definitely important.
> 
>> to summarize: unless you have special needs, just every mainboard
>> produced the last 40 years should work with ANYDOS. Don't ask for
>> sound...
> 
> That's no guarantee though.  Some modern machines only provide partial
> BIOS services - only enough to get common operating system installers
> to run and no more.  I have had machines that booted to DOS and I could
> install an operating system on and it ran fine, but they would lock up
> when I tried to run most DOS programs because they were missing a
> bunch of ROM BIOS services.  It looks like they don't always bother
> implementing the full feature set when for 99.999% of their customers
> it will never get used.
> 
> It seems UEFI machines are the worst offenders for this, as they ship
> with a BIOS compatibility layer that has been written from scratch, as
> opposed to older machines that run the same BIOS code that's been in
> use for decades.  They apparently left all the old BIOS code hanging
> around unchanged for years in those implementations, but when they had
> to write a BIOS-compatible layer for UEFI from scratch, it seems some
> vendors just did the bear essentials only.
> 
> One of these was a small form factor Intel NUC I bought a few years
> ago with the intention of installing Windows 98 on it to use for
> playing old Windows 3D games, but alas I couldn't even run the Windows
> installer either.  Many programs just made it freeze.  The device very
> specifically states that it only supports running a limited number of
> operating systems and they really mean it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Adam.
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Using a USB stick and an optical drive

[Thomas Desi]

HI Eric, 
just to let you know (isn’t a question, just an observation for a nice feature)

on my HP Think Client AND on my Mini ITX, both can do (without any tweaking or 
stuff):

1. Plug in 2 USB Sticks (one has  the bootable FreeDOS on it)
both are FAT formated (FAT)

2. boot into FreeDOS from USB-Stick 

3. BOTH USB Sticks are avaible for Read/Write. (as drives C:  and   D:)


Regards, 
Thomas

> On Wed,20210414- week15, at 19:22, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Thomas,
> 
>> I just found a recipe regarding USB-Sticks & MS-DOS.
> 
>> SOURCE: https://slomkowski.eu/retrocomputing/usb-mass-storage-on-ms-dos/
> 
> Well, the old USBASPI drivers might work for you, yes.
> Or those by Bret Johnson. Or those by Georg Potthast:
> 
> http://www.georgpotthast.de/usb/
> 
> The general problem is that each driver only supports
> a limited set of different controller chips, so it will
> depend on your luck on whether one works for you.
> 
> The drivers by Georg are shareware and will only work
> for a limited time after each boot, but that is probably
> enough for what you want to do :-)
> 
> Regards, Eric
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Diskman in our Ibiblio collection

[Thomas Desi]

Hi Dennis, I *love* your TextEditors.org site! Thanks for your work! 
Coincidentally, I was just this moment browsing 
http://www.lanet.lv/simtel.net/msdos/editor-pre.html
and it looks like all are broken links. 

-Thomas

NB: Some authors of an earlier era still living up to the idea that holding the 
software and/or source or sort-of-registration-process/registration fee etc. 
might still yield some income. Software market dynamics have changed so much 
since then (1990ies, DOS times) that more is lost then free the software at 
least for archives to study, try, play or even work with it. Most of it is of 
little commercial use on a large scale. (This should/could be read in the light 
of the »FSF« ideas, too.)

Maybe it would need a broader manifesto about this issue and distributed in 
time before most of it is lost in digital oblivion? (See editor-list above and 
many many other sites/links)




> On Sat,20210501- week17, at 22:58, dmccunney  
> wrote:
> 
> On Sat, May 1, 2021 at 3:26 PM Jim Hall  wrote:
>> On Sat, May 1, 2021 at 10:59 AM Eric Auer  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi! Recently I have noticed that our ibiblio contains "DM21"
>> I'm not sure why that was on Ibiblio. We can only include open source
>> software on the Ibiblio site.
> 
> You don't host non open source software on Ibiblio.
> 
> Fair enough, but there needs to be a place to put "Free to use" but
> *not* open source that will be of use to Freedos (and DOS in general
> users) and useful used on DOS/Freedos.  It requires written permission
> to host for download?  What if the author has long since vanished and
> the product is abandonware and you can't *get* it? Being in violation
> of the license wouldn't  be a concern here.  Who on Earth might go you
> after about it?
> 
> I am principal maintainer for a site called TextEditors.org  The focus
> is what it says in site name.  It's a wiki anyone can update.  If it's
> a text editor running on a device, the wiki wants to document it.  The
> hardware is runs on might be anything from an IBM Mainframe to a
> pocket calculator.
> 
> Licenses also vary.  An editor may be explicitly commercial,
> shareware, freeware, open source, or abandonware, where the code and
> docs are available but the author has long since vanished from the
> Internet.  I don't care.  I just specify what the license *is*, The
> one area where I draw a line is abandoned shareware. If it's
> abandoned, but the editor is fully functional without being
> registered,, I'll host it.  If it's abandoned shareware that will not
> fully function without a license, and it's not possible to register it
> because long gone authors, I see no point to have it available.
> 
> A lot  of stuff I host is historical and long gone., as is the
> hardware it ran on.  I do my best to provide pointers to documentation
> so viewers can learn about what it was, did, and its place in computer
> history.
> 
> I think there needs to be a repository for stuff like Eric mentioned,
> with a pointer to the site from the Freedos.org home page explicitly
> stating "Only free and open source software may be hosted on Ibiblio.
> This URL points to a site not on Ibiblio with software that was
> recommended by Freedos user as generally useful DOS sofwaret that is
> free but *not* open source.  If interested you may find it *here*."
> 
> My concern is providing copies of and information *about* DOS and  DOS
> software.  If the software is free to use but *not* open source, I
> don't care.  It may not be posted *on* Ibiblio, but DOS/Freedos users
> should be able to *find* it, with a pointer on Freedos.org to
> somewhere other than Ibiblio where it might live.
> 
>> Jim
> ___
> Dennis
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Why I use DOS a.k.a. FreeDOS for Dummies?

[Thomas Desi]

Thank you, Jim for this overview on roff - groff. 
And, by the way, if someone is about music typesetting, check out 
http://lilypond.org/   which is kind-of-similar to *roff but for music. 
The score can be written as code on FreeDOS with any text editor ;-)
-Thomas

> On Sat,20210501- week17, at 23:00, Jim Hall  wrote:
> 
>> On 4/25/2021 10:43 PM, TK Chia wrote:
> [..]
>>> troff (as groff) is still very much alive today, as far as I can tell.
>>> And the troff format is still the default source format for man pages on
>>> Linux.  It is quite a good format for the job, if you ask me.
> 
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 1:54 AM Ralf Quint  wrote:
>> Well, it all depends on what you are used to. I haven't used any of that
>> troff (etc) stuff in +30 years now, ever since GUI deskops and apps for
>> it started to become usable.
> [..]
> 
> BTW, if anyone is interested in troff (or variants) there's an
> interesting history in Brian Kernighan's book, "Unix: A History and a
> Memoir." It starts on page 98. In brief:
> 
> Jerry Saltzer's Runoff program was an early text formatting system,
> originally for CTSS. It used macros like this:
> 
> .ce
> This is a centered (ce) line.
> .ti 5
> This line has a starting text indent (ti) of 5 spaces.
> 
> 
> While at MIT, Kernighan wrote a simple implementation of Runoff called
> Roff ("an abbreviated Runoff")
> 
> Joe Ossanna at Bell Labs (Unix team) later wrote a similar but more
> powerful implementation called Nroff (for "New Roff") that generated
> output suitable for the typewriter-like printers at the time
> 
> When the Unix team acquired a phototypesetting machine, Joe made
> significant updates to Nroff to create Troff (for "Typesetter Roff")
> to drive the typesetter
> 
> Kernighan later updated Troff to become the Device Independent Troff
> (still called "Troff" but I've also seen this referenced as "ditroff")
> with a typesetter description language that allowed Troff to produce
> output for different kinds of devices
> 
> And much later, GNU wrote a new implementation called Groff ("GNU Roff")
> 
> 
> I've written a few articles for OpenSource.com about using groff. The
> latest one is here:
> https://opensource.com/article/21/4/groff-programmer
> 
> (It even includes a groff source file using the "-me" macros)
> 
> 
> At the time, writing documents in nroff/troff/groff was as common as
> writing documentation in Markdown today.
> 
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Diskman in our Ibiblio collection

[Thomas Desi]

Maybe those legacy editors are still around in discussion because of their 
„paradigmas“ they created 
around editing text on a computer. Editor „Brief“ refers maybe besides other 
features to „incremental“ Home / End Keys (e.g. first HOME press moves caret to 
Start-Of-Line, a second press moves the caret a line up, till Start-of-File) or 
more in general to key commands which became models for period of time for many 
editors. Just like  the Wordstar „diamond“ arrow subtitution 
right/left/up/down, which actually is not ideal. Other combintations CTL-q, 
CTL-O, CLT-K like „groups“ of commands can be found in many editors of that 
time. It is strange that so many similar approaches were just recreated and 
„cloned“. (The discussed usefullnes of "h j k l“ navigating keys in vim is well 
known.)

 Interesting to me in all this is the connection (or lack of) between hardware 
- i.e. the keyboard layout - and the software (control keys, greykeys etc.). 
Usability and ergonomy has been sacrified for a much to broad scope of uses and 
- marketing.

The Atari keyboard „middle block“ has its own design: 

HELP  |  Undo

Insert | up |  Clr Home

left   | dwn| right


Maybe this is somewhat a progress to have a dedicated UNDO-key or HELP-key? Or 
was it just to be „different“, like the bumps on old Apple keys on „d“ and „k“ 
instead of „f“ and „j“? Hard to say one is better then the other. We only 
became „locked into“ a system in the last 50 years.

So each and every text editor (especially those) provokes a quasi-religious 
attitude of the user 
towards the computer and its behaviour. Adding pull-down menues or calling the 
menue by pressing F10 or F1 for Help… Most of these conventions are gone 
because of the ubiquity of the mouse or touchpad. 
I find it surprising to use „Mouskeys“ in DOS editors which probably never 
where thought to be used with the mouse. 

Besides inventive features or approaches in design of the software itself me 
personally, I am looking for an optimal workflow combining keyboard/mouse and 
software with what I want do with the editor. (Not programming) 
Coding / „Programming“ is definitely different from prose writing. The first 
uses much more line breaks, Tabs, pairs of parenthesis, for example. Maybe also 
more going back and forth from one spot to another and back again etc. than the 
letter, where you have to be able to quickly correct typos on the fly. 

Printing, which has been such a killer issue, has become IMHO much less 
important lately, as most text feed into the web (blogs) or Emails. PDF as the 
main currency. Word’s doc format unfortunately is asked nearly in every domain 
as the common denominator. Be green - use your screen!

Designing a *complete* system for editing text must include the actual keyboard 
layout, dedicated keys, the pointing device, the editor software (yeah), and 
the… operating system. All need to finally feed into the „ergonomic“ aspect  
(key-chording in legacy Emacs can in bad cases lead to injury of the hands), 
free the unnecessary mental load (editing prose in vi/vim having in mind which 
mode one is in, is mindf**k). The two paradigma Emacs/Vi(m) are rather similar 
in contrast to the ACME and SAM editors, using the three button mouse. 

And just to mention it, there once was Jef Raskin's „Canon Cat“. His paradigma 
of „all is text“ (like Rob Pike’s ACME?) but denying the use of the mouse in 
favour of a copyrighted „Leap“ key, which basically is Emacs’ search-command. 
Gaining seconds but asking the user to retype typos in order to move the caret 
to that spot. It is amazing how these geniuses were somewhat wrong in 
predicting the future despite the objective superiority of their concepts. 
Raskin’s work (Swyft card, THE, ARCHY) dove into oblivion.

Rob Pike in 1991 wrote an article ( 
http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/1st_edition/help/help.pdf ) which is still worth 
reading. Let me quote: "Where will we be ten years from now? CRT’s will be a 
thing of the past, multimedia will no longer be a buzzword, pen-based and voice 
input will be everywhere, and university students will still be editing with 
emacs. Pens and touchscreens are too low-bandwidth for real interaction; voice 
will probably also turn out to be inadequate. (Anyway, who would want to work 
in an environment surrounded by people talking to their computers?) Mice are 
sure to be with us a while longer, so we should learn how to use them well.“

Did he say „ten years“? 1991 is now thirty years ago…

He didn’t speak about tablets/smartphones - but have you tried working with 
text editing on a touch-screen? Orrrgh.

Today one can easily realize one’s own design of a keyboard, or have extra 
special macro keyboards, or pointing devices like roller mouse, trackpad, magic 
mouse etc.
Still the software lacks enormously, especially for text editing in prose. 
Sound’s pretensiously silly, I know. 
But, Keyboard Commands seem for many peo

Re: [Freedos-user] Diskman in our Ibiblio collection

[Thomas Desi]

Liam, 
WordTsar looks indeed „funny“ on my iMac. Thx for pointing it out.

Regarding Raskin’s Editor: There are builds for Windows, Mac and Linux:

https://web.archive.org/web/20080224100142/http://rchi.raskincenter.org/index.php?title=Download

A recent Tribute to his ZOOM World is nice to try out here:

http://www.raskinformac.com/#features

… so it hasn’t fallen completely into oblivion. One finds the story all over 
the net when searching
for example: Enso, Ubiquity, Archy, THE SWYFT CARD 

His son apparently tried for a while to push forward on this, but it all 
stopped at some point. 
I think this is because it works nice for single users, small data sets with 
text and so on, but not in larger contexts, especially multiplex and graphics 
content.

- Thomas


> Am 07.05.2021 um 23:11 schrieb Liam Proven :
> 
> On Fri, 7 May 2021 at 18:29, Thomas Desi  wrote:
>> 
>> Maybe those legacy editors are still around in discussion because of their 
>> „paradigmas“ they created
>> around editing text on a computer.
> 
> Well, yes.
> 
>> Editor „Brief“ refers maybe besides other features to „incremental“ Home / 
>> End Keys (e.g. first HOME press moves caret to Start-Of-Line, a second press 
>> moves the caret a line up, till Start-of-File) or more in general to key 
>> commands which became models for period of time for many editors.
> 
> Aha! Interesting. I have not heard of that before.
> 
>> Hard to say one is better then the other. We only became „locked into“ a 
>> system in the last 50 years.
> 
> Very true.
> 
> But there is real value in having a near-universal system. IBM CUA
> came in at the end of the DOS era, but has persisted in some forms...
> Windows, all the mainstream xNix desktops, OS/2, and even Mac OS X hew
> to it to some degree. OS X more than Classic MacOS.
> 
> It's partly why I do not use Vim or Emacs. I learned editors in the
> early 1980s, when every one was totally different and many computers
> had multiple different editors. I was au fait with dozens and switched
> easily.
> 
> CUA came as a huge relief; after it, one model and one UI worked everywhere.
> 
> I don't care _how_ much editing power Vim or Emacs may have; they do
> not conform to the dominant UI of the last 35+ years, and as such, I
> am not interested in learning yet another UI. I will use the one that
> works in Notepad, Gedit, Leafpad, Mousepad, Kate, Geany, Text Edit,
> EDIT.EXE, EDITOR.EXE, etc. etc.
> 
>> So each and every text editor (especially those) provokes a quasi-religious 
>> attitude of the user
>> towards the computer and its behaviour.
> 
> Exactly so, yes.
> 
>> Adding pull-down menues or calling the menue by pressing F10 or F1 for Help… 
>> Most of these conventions are gone because of the ubiquity of the mouse or 
>> touchpad.
> 
> True.
> 
>> Printing, which has been such a killer issue, has become IMHO much less 
>> important lately, as most text feed into the web (blogs) or Emails. PDF as 
>> the main currency. Word’s doc format unfortunately is asked nearly in every 
>> domain as the common denominator. Be green - use your screen!
> 
> True.
> 
>> Designing a *complete* system for editing text must include the actual 
>> keyboard layout, dedicated keys, the pointing device, the editor software 
>> (yeah), and the… operating system. All need to finally feed into the 
>> „ergonomic“ aspect  (key-chording in legacy Emacs can in bad cases lead to 
>> injury of the hands), free the unnecessary mental load (editing prose in 
>> vi/vim having in mind which mode one is in, is mindf**k). The two paradigma 
>> Emacs/Vi(m) are rather similar in contrast to the ACME and SAM editors, 
>> using the three button mouse.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
>> And just to mention it, there once was Jef Raskin's „Canon Cat“. His 
>> paradigma of „all is text“ (like Rob Pike’s ACME?) but denying the use of 
>> the mouse in favour of a copyrighted „Leap“ key, which basically is Emacs’ 
>> search-command. Gaining seconds but asking the user to retype typos in order 
>> to move the caret to that spot. It is amazing how these geniuses were 
>> somewhat wrong in predicting the future despite the objective superiority of 
>> their concepts. Raskin’s work (Swyft card, THE, ARCHY) dove into oblivion.
> 
> Ha! As I read your message, I thought of the Cat.
> 
> I wish someone would do a clone of its UI using normal PC keyboards
> and (say) Emacs as its base. It was an inspired design.
>> 
>> Rob Pike in 1991 wrote an article ( 
>> http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/1st_edition/help/help.pdf ) which is still worth 
>> reading. Let me quote: "Where will we be ten

Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS and screen readers for blind users

[Thomas Desi]

Hi, I am much impressed by  Felix’ blind-accessible DOS setup!!

> Am 10.05.2021 um 12:20 schrieb Tomas By :
> 
>> a) Can FreeDOS boot from a flash drive?
> 
> You're going to get different answers. Empirically, yes it works fine
> in some cases. Theoretically, however, it is apparently impossible.

I am not an expert, it just happens that I had installed DOS 1.3 on an ITX 
hardware Harddisk, and the BIOS of this machine allows for booting from the 
harddisk and writing/reading to a USB Disk, when already plugged in before 
booting the System, without any extra utils. (Seems that this BIOS allows for 
it).  It doesn’t work the other way round, and also it does not recognize a 
second USB Stick in this case


case 2) I unplugged the Harddisk and use 2 USB Disks, one with FreeDOS System 
on it, the other one just a data storage.

I can boot from the flash (=USB Stick) and go easily back and forth between C: 
or D: to read/write or start any program from either USB Stick. 

I think, the most important question here is, if the BIOS of your computer does 
handle USB in the way you want. Otherwise it will be a long ride, I guess.

I have also the same „issue“ in that some helper software I would want (ex.: 
Hotkeys) only works on Windows, so I don’t know, how to solve this on DOS. My 
simplest approach is it to use hardware that does, what DOS cannot do. (In my 
case using a programmable keyboard.) Is anyway the moste stable solution and 
takes no precious RAM/computing time.

Hope that helps in some way, 
regards, Thomas D___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Editing the wiki

[Thomas Desi]

freedos.wiki.org

?
Regards
Thomas

Am 24.05.2021 um 17:28 schrieb Jim Hall :


The wiki seems to be okay as I look at it now:
http://wiki.freedos.org/wiki/index.php/Networking_FreeDOS_-_mTCP

The wiki is slow, that's true. For a while, I've been planning to move it off 
where it's hosted now (SourceForge shared project hosting) to where I'm hosting 
the main FreeDOS website (Dreamhost). The Dreamhost servers are much faster.

SourceForge has had some unexplained downtime in the last few months, where web 
hosting or database hosting has gone down and didn't tell anyone (a) that it 
was happening or (b) what happened. That might explain what happened when you 
got the "500 error." You can see on their SFNet_Ops twitter that they've 
announced maintenance work, but nothing about outages. 
https://twitter.com/sfnet_ops

So I think I need to get started with moving the wiki to Dreamhost. I think the 
best plan is this:

1. Find a new web name for the wiki (help.freedos.org or docs.freedos.org or 
..?)

2. Set up the new website on Dreamhost

3. Freeze edits on the old wiki

4. Install & configure the wiki software
4a. Copy the databases & files

5. Update links on the website to use the new wiki

6. Decommission the old wiki

7. Re-point "wiki.freedos.org" as an alias to the new wiki (so any links people 
have that go to the wiki don't break)



So, what seems like a good wiki website name? I'm open to ideas.


Jim


On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 11:46 PM Michael Brutman  wrote:
> No good deed goes unpunished ...
> 
> I made my edits.  Then this happened:
> http://wiki.freedos.org/wiki/index.php/Networking_FreeDOS_-_mTCP is broken 
> and returns a 500 error from the server.
> http://wiki.freedos.org/wiki/index.php?title=Networking_FreeDOS_-_mTCP works 
> fine, but it's not a direct URL.  (The name is in the parameter.)
> I made a mess of the revision history trying to isolate which edits might 
> have broken it, but even going all the way back to Martin's last edit doesn't 
> work now.  And it's a server 500, which is not something user content should 
> be able to cause.
> 
> Jim - who is hosting this thing?  Besides being broken, it's also pretty 
> slow.  I feel bad because it broke on me, but nothing I did should have 
> broken it.  (I suspect there is an admin page that I can't get to where error 
> logs can be examined.)
> 
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 4:45 AM Jim Hall  wrote:
>> Hi Mike!
>> 
>> I can create an account for you.
>> 
>> I'll create your account today and send it to you.
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, May 5, 2021, 11:14 PM Michael Brutman  wrote:
>>> I've noticed some inaccuracies on the FreeDOS networking wiki pages.  How 
>>> does one get an account so that edits can be made?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Mike
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> Freedos-user mailing list
>>> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
>> ___
>> Freedos-user mailing list
>> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Clairifcation on USB drives.

[Thomas Desi]

Hi, yes, same with me. 
I only wonder if there is a logic in which USB slot comes first.
(I have two USB slots on top of my machine, and it is always the "left" of 
those two, which then becomes
C:, and the other D:

Anyone has an idea if USB ports have a sequence or so?

regards, 
Thomas

> On Mon,20210607- week23, at 12:57, joseph turco  
> wrote:
> 
> Hey,
> 
> Thanks for responding. So I ended up getting USB drive support to work. The 
> only trick is you need to insert the device at boot, no hot swapping. 
> 
> On Sun, Jun 6, 2021, 23:27 dmccunney,  > wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 10:51 PM joseph turco  > wrote:
> >
> > i'm looking at installing freeDOS on an older (XP era) computer. I'm sorry 
> > for my ignorance, but i'm trying to figure out usb support. I read 
> > somewhere that USB drives are not read by the OS while it's already booted, 
> > but WILL read USB drives if it's inserted upon boot. Is this correct? Many 
> > thanks ahead of time. I plan to get a floppy drive for the computer (found 
> > one for sale for 10 bucks) so that I won't rely on USB drives, but I need 
> > it to get QBASIC on the system.
> 
> The issue will be FreeDOS.  USB did not exist when DOS was the
> dominant PC OS.  FreeDOS attempts to be an open source clone of MSDOS,
> so it does not have support for stuff introduced after DOS was dead.
> 
> You would need a USB driver loaded in CONFIG.SYS to access the USB
> drives from FreeDOS.  There is an attempt to create that, but
> I'm not sure about the current status. (It didn't work to access USB
> ports on a machine where I multibooted with FreeDOS as one of the
> OSes.). My memory suggests it needed support for a USB function not in
> that driver.  That was a few years ago, and things may have improved.
> __
> Dennis
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net 
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Clairifcation on USB drives.

[Thomas Desi]

cool, thx. 
And... if I am running FreeDOS on bare metal only - maybe in the BIOS somewhere 
or is there a helper app somewhere in FDOS that lists the device? Probabely a 
case for Georg Potthast...?

Thomas

> On Mon,20210607- week23, at 16:25, Tomas By  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 07 Jun 2021 16:19:23 +0200, Thomas Desi wrote:
>> Anyone has an idea if USB ports have a sequence or so?
> 
> 
> Of course they do. `lsusb' in Linux lists the `device numbers.'
> 
> /Tomas
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] FlWriter Textprocessor with GUI

[Thomas Desi]

Hi there, 

If someone is looking for a nifty text editor which looks quite "un-dos" with a 
GUI, Georg Potthast has one: 

"FlWriter is a text processing program using FLTK as a GUI tookit  Author:   
Jean-Mark Lienher, Georg Potthast
 Homepage: https://code.google.com/p/nanox-microwindows-nxlib-fltk-for-dos/
 Download: 
https://code.google.com/p/nanox-microwindows-nxlib-fltk-for-dos/downloads/detail?name=flwriter_1.0.zip
 Family:   MsDosEditors
 Platform: MSDOS
 License:  Artistic License/GPL

It was developed by Jean-Mark Lienher in 2002 and ported to DOS and enhanced in 
2012 by Georg Potthast.

FlWriter uses XHTML as its internal format and stores the text files in this 
format. It thus works similar to an HTML editor, however, the functionality 
concentrates on developing text files using different fonts.

It features WYSIWYG . The editor window displays the text in the selected 
fonts. The document then can be converted for printing into a postscript file 
or a PDF document. The utility HTMLDOC is called by FlWriter? 2012 for these 
conversions. You can also generate print files for HP Deskjet and Laserjet 
printers as well as Canon Bubblejet"
(copy-pasted from https://texteditors.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?FLWriter)

Just in case someone is looking for something like this. 
Works very well on DOS-BOX, too.

Th. 


> On Wed,20210414- week15, at 19:22, Eric Auer  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Thomas,
> 
>> I just found a recipe regarding USB-Sticks & MS-DOS.
> 
>> SOURCE: https://slomkowski.eu/retrocomputing/usb-mass-storage-on-ms-dos/
> 
> Well, the old USBASPI drivers might work for you, yes.
> Or those by Bret Johnson. Or those by Georg Potthast:
> 
> http://www.georgpotthast.de/usb/
> 
> The general problem is that each driver only supports
> a limited set of different controller chips, so it will
> depend on your luck on whether one works for you.
> 
> The drivers by Georg are shareware and will only work
> for a limited time after each boot, but that is probably
> enough for what you want to do :-)
> 
> Regards, Eric
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Clairifcation on USB drives.

[Thomas Desi]

in case someone else is interested

HWiNFO is a hardware detection program for DOS
Copyright (c)1995-2021 Martin Mal°k - REALiX(tm)  ∫
Version 6.1.3; Last Update: Mar-30-2021

  HWiNFO Homepage: http://www.hwinfo.com
  SAC ftp- ftp.elf.stuba.sk/pub/pc/utildiag
  SAC WWW- www.sac.sk

Requirements 

- 80386 or later CPU
- ~ 550 KB of free Conventional system memory
- ~ 830 KB (Non-PCI systems) / 5 MB (PCI systems) free XMS memory (XMS 
manager recommended)

The Mainboard Chipset identification works only on newer (1991 and above)
  AMI and newer AWARD BIOSes. HWiNFO is also able to detect some chipsets, not
  depending on the type of BIOS.


  PCMCIA detection requires Socket Services or Card Services to be installed.
  If you want more info about sockets, install Card Services.


  The VESA Local Bus can be detected only if a VLB card is present.

> Am 07.06.2021 um 16:25 schrieb Tomas By :
> 
> On Mon, 07 Jun 2021 16:19:23 +0200, Thomas Desi wrote:
>> Anyone has an idea if USB ports have a sequence or so?
> 
> 
> Of course they do. `lsusb' in Linux lists the `device numbers.'
> 
> /Tomas
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Building Plan9's Sam text editor on FreeDOS? (+ Edlin without line numbers?)

[Thomas Desi]

Hi Mart, 

maybe I was waiting for someone asking this question ;)

Let me ask: "Why?" or better "What for?". What is your use-case for SAM?

SAM is sort-of part of the Plan9 OS as an
integrated element of the whole PLAN 9 concept. If you want a lean system, you 
can have PLAN9 & SAM on Raspberry. A port exists. If you use TinyCore already, 
you are much more on the Linux side.

I am courious to hear your use case or ideas why you would want to use 
specifically SAM (or ACME?)

As Plan9 makes  specific and differenciated use of the mouse (three buttons, 
chordings...) this doesn't seam ideal for DOS. 
Brant has written MOUSKEYS which is a nifty implementation of the mouse - but 
not what PLAN9 does.
(Also: graphic vs text oriented display)

If you are just looking for a good text editor, you can go for VDE or FLEX or 
something like E (4k size...).

It is just my guess that DOS is a very different concept from UNIX (or PLAN9, 
as a sort-of-derivative) ... ( I am not a programmer or so, just using FreeDos 
for text editing )

regards,
Thomas

> On Mon,20210621- week25, at 05:41, Mart Zirnask  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> I'm a new subscriber, not a programmer, but interested in lean systems
> -- and also a person with a DOS-y childhood. Now I'm getting to know
> FreeDOS, reading the mailing list archives. It is wonderful to find
> such a lively community around an  "old" system (as in, it being a
> MS-DOS derivate) like this.
> 
> (Also, Jim, I am taking time to watch your C tutorials on Youtube. You
> seem to be a really wonderful, humble person. A great teacher.)
> 
> Also, having used Tiny Core Linux as a daily driver, I am blown away
> by how fast FreeDOS boots!
> 
> However, I am a fan of the Sam text editor, originally developed for
> the Plan 9 OS. It has a CLI line editor mode ('sam -d' -- similar to
> 'ed', but purposefully with a few less commands). Sam has been ported
> to Windows, but on FreeDOS I got the "This program cannot be run in
> DOS mode" error.
> 
> Unfortunately, I am not capable enough to try building it for FreeDOS
> myself -- so I was wondering if maybe somebody could help?
> 
> A current Win32 port built with MinGW (+sources) can be found here:
> http://sam.cat-v.org/_files/win32_sam.zip
> 
> Also, here are Rob Pike's original papers on Sam and its (IMO) main
> selling point, structural regular expressions:
> http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/sam/
> http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/sam_lang_tutorial/sam_tut.pdf
> http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/structural_regexps/se.pdf
> 
> As a workaround, I could also use Edlin in place of Sam.
> But is  there a way to turn line numbers off in Edlin?
> This would be great for writing things other than code.
> 
> Thanks very much in advance,
> also, thanks again for all the devs (Jim & others) behind FreeDOS!
> 
> Greetings from Estonia,
> Mart
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Building Plan9's Sam text editor on FreeDOS? (+ Edlin without line numbers?)

[Thomas Desi]

Hi Liam, 
thanks for pointing out the link to the Oberon on DOS.
I downloaded the files indicated from sourceforge.net

Starting the Oberon  SYSTEM.EXE creates around 255 new files…
It needs HIMEM.SYS

However… things like this makes me quickly return to Freedos bare metal: just a 
few system files and booting in no time… 
I am not sure if the extra miles are really worth it, haven’t got that time 
either. Although it sounds quite interesting.

It is strange that some things do not really catch on or persist (3 button 
mouse, for example).

thx, 
Th.



> Am 21.06.2021 um 15:05 schrieb Liam Proven :
> 
> On Mon, 21 Jun 2021 at 05:42, Mart Zirnask  wrote:
>> 
>> However, I am a fan of the Sam text editor, originally developed for
>> the Plan 9 OS.
> 
> SAM, Acme and the Plan 9 Rio environment were inspired by Niklaus
> Wirth's Oberon environment.
> 
> The UI is quite similar to the Oberon UI.
> 
> Quick intro:
> http://ignorethecode.net/blog/2009/04/22/oberon/
> 
> Wikipedia article:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oberon_(operating_system)
> 
> Some of the history:
> https://people.inf.ethz.ch/wirth/Articles/LeanSoftware.pdf
> 
> Academic assessment:
> http://people.cis.ksu.edu//~danielwang/Investigation/System_Security/download.pdf
> (Warning, non HTTPS link, but it's real, valid and safe.)
> 
> Thus, you might find it interesting and instructive to check out Oberon.
> 
> Modern versions run on top of Windows, macOS and Linux, but it also
> used to run on top of DOS if that's what you want.
> 
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/dosoberon/files/DOS%20Oberon%20System%203%20Version%202.0/
> 
> -- 
> Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
> Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
> UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

[Freedos-user] Standy in FreeDos?

[Thomas Desi]

Hi, is it possible (application? program) to put the computer to „sleep“ (i.e. 
„standby) in FreeDos?
Anyone any ideas?

Thomas



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

[Freedos-user] standby in FreeDos?

[Thomas Desi]

Hi, is it possible (application? program) to put the computer to „sleep“ (i.e. 
„standby) in FreeDos?
Anyone any ideas?

Best, Thomas

___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Standy in FreeDos?

[Thomas Desi]

Save Power (stop harddisc?)

NB.:

I don't know if there are jobs running in FreeDos which would consume power 
while I don't use it?

On my Lenovo machine (is a computer with integrated monitor, which results in a 
compact forma factor, much like the "iMac"), booted from a FreeDos USB-Stick, 
the fan and I guess the harddisk are running all the time. 
(I didn't try to access the harddisk from Dos, as I use a second USB-Stick D:\ 
to backup my files.)

When in Windows 10, the harddisc, monitor and fans etc can be halted by 
"Standby". So this made me think that it might be healthier (?) for the 
computer to halt it, also in FreeDOS.

Bootup time from USB stick is around 10 secs or so, but too long to always 
switch on and off the machine.

I remember there is a power-saver by Eric and others again, maybe this would 
suffice or do the trick?

> On Wed,20210929- week39, at 15:05, Bret Johnson  wrote:
> 
> What exactly are you trying to accomplish?  Save Power?  Save the current 
> state of a program?  Make booting faster?
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> 



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] Standy in FreeDos?

[Thomas Desi]

Mateusz, thx. Is idledpms a separate resident program to download somewhere?
> Am 29.09.2021 um 15:13 schrieb Mateusz Viste :
> 
> On 29/09/2021 14:06, Thomas Desi wrote:
>> Hi, is it possible (application? program) to put the computer to „sleep“ 
>> (i.e. „standby) in FreeDos?
> 
> "fdapm standby"
> 
> http://amb.osdn.io/phpamb.php?fname=lib/fdhelpen.amb&f=fdapm.ama
> 
> Mateusz
> 
> 
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

[Freedos-user] keyboard spacecharacter automatically repeated

[Thomas Desi]

Hi,

browsing through the email archive of the list I could not find a 
related topic. So I try to ask here.


My problem:

I use a Hasu  USB converter 
https://1upkeyboards.com/shop/controllers/usb-to-usb-converter/


to have a "Dual function": When holding the Space-Key + an alpha-numeric 
key, tghe space bar should work as a SHIFT modifier.


This works fine on Mac, Windows, but not with  FREE-Dos on my "HP 
Netbook" small computers. It DOES work on a Lenovo desktop computer, 
where I also boot FREE DOS from an USB Stick like on the HP.


The malfunction is, that from "time to time" (actually quite "often") 
the cursor starts to move from "alone" and wandering off creating just 
empty space, like when you would hold the spacebar down. When I hit the 
Spacebar again, the cursor stops.


The same problem occurs when using an Ergodox keyboard where there is an 
"AUTOSHIFT" function, where you HOLD a key slightly longer then normal 
to get a "SHIFT"+character.


Might be the BIOS differences, or is the keyboard controller 
automatically sending a "space" character somehow or the FreeDos 
interprets some signal from the keyboard controller as a Key-Press


Anyone any idea why this  happens?

Thanks, Thomas



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] keyboard spacecharacter automatically repeated

[Thomas Desi]

Result is:

SCAN CODES  57 Space

{185}                {Space}


My additional question: anybody how experienced keyboards firing of 
"autonomously" empty space characters?


Thanks!



On 04.11.22 15:07, Bret Johnson wrote:

Keyboards can sometimes do funny things, especially keyboards like the ones you're 
describing that have special timing-related "features" built into them.

I would suggest starting with my SCANTEST program (attached) and see what the 
keyboard is actually sending to the computer (SCANTEST is one of the test 
utilities that is included with my USB drivers).  Rename SCANTEST.CO_ to 
SCANTEST.COM and run it.  This sounds like a keyboard (hardware) issue rather 
than software, but more testing is needed to sort it out.


___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user

Re: [Freedos-user] keyboard spacecharacter automatically repeated

[Thomas Desi]

Hi Robert,

On 04.11.22 19:16, Robert Riebisch wrote:

Does this also happen, when you press F5 at the FreeDOS boot menu to
skip loading any drivers, specifically a keyboard driver?

I use the same USB Stick with my Autoexec.bat in FreeDOS to boot on 
three different computers, using the same cables, same keyboard, same 
HASU USB converter:


 on the LENOVO it doesn't happen, but on the HP and another small 
machine it does happen.


Regards,

Thomas



___
Freedos-user mailing list
Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user