Re: [Freedos-user] FYI: I'm speaking at FOSDEM'21 this weekend

[Šimon Dobeš]

That presentation is really great! :-)
Simon

-- Pôvodná správa --
Od: "Jim Hall" 
Komu: "Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS." 


Odoslané: 4. 2. 2021 23:13:11
Predmet: Re: [Freedos-user] FYI: I'm speaking at FOSDEM'21 this weekend




On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 3:44 PM Jim Hall  wrote:



On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 3:21 PM tom ehlert  wrote:

> (and a future "2.0" someday).

I am a bit surprised by this. any news that we all are not aware of?




Same as I've said before in the email lists, and elsewhere:

I want to get "1.3" finally wrapped up, and I'd like to have a "2.0" 
someday. The NightDOS folks are working on their updated kernel - if 
they can get it working and still runs all 16-bit DOS applications, 
then we could include that as an alternative kernel for people who (a) 
have a more modern system, and (b) opt-in to use it.**


And there are other "like to have" things that would be great to have 
in a FreeDOS "2.0" like an alternative DOS command.com shell. I 
described that here long ago, and on the blog - would love to have an 
expanded command.com that uses a BASIC-like syntax but still maintains 
compatibility with DOS BAT files. At the time, you pointed out that 
Windows command.com did something similar to what I proposed - but I 
don't use Windows so I wasn't aware of that.


And "2.0" still needs to be "DOS" so needs to support all 16-bit DOS 
applications. And I would want FreeDOS to remain a command-line 
operating system.



So, no surprises to anyone on this list.

Jim

** But, NightDOS is a long way from being able to do that. The goals 
of NightDOS are pretty lofty, so they have a lot of work here. I think 
it will be a while before we see that.




My presentation is pre-recorded, and I've uploaded a copy to the 
FreeDOS YouTube channel (will go "live" after my presentation on 
Sunday).


Here's the video: https://youtu.be/uP77xJA8-4k


* 0 to 12 min : my history + some DOS history
* 12 min to 27 min : FreeDOS up until "now"
* 27 min to 41 min : FreeDOS 1.3
* 41 min to end : FreeDOS "2.0" wish list
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Re: [Freedos-user] FYI: I'm speaking at FOSDEM'21 this weekend

[Aitor Santamaría]

Hello,


On Thu, 4 Feb 2021 at 23:19, Jim Hall  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 3:44 PM Jim Hall  wrote:
>
>> [..]
>>
> And there are other "like to have" things that would be great to have in a
>> FreeDOS "2.0" like an alternative DOS command.com shell. I described
>> that here long ago, and on the blog - would love to have an expanded
>> command.com that uses a BASIC-like syntax but still maintains
>> compatibility with DOS BAT files. At the time, you pointed out that Windows
>> command.com did something similar to what I proposed - but I don't use
>> Windows so I wasn't aware of that.
>>
>
> For reference, this is the expanded "BASIC-like" syntax I mentioned in
> 2018. If any new developers would like to write something new, this would
> be an interesting challenge:
>
>
> https://freedos-project.blogspot.com/2018/08/expanding-freedos-commandcom.html
>
>
Well, dreaming a bit higher, I've always thought that a nice challenge
would indeed be going towards the so-called windows commands:

Comandos de Windows | Microsoft Docs

(change to your language, I seem to get that in Spanish by default)

at least in what they would make sense in a DOS world.

Way beyond that, PowerShell, at least in what refers to the basic operating
system stuff (files and such), and that may run in 16-bit with the obvious
limitations for pipes, as there might be no open source initiative to
create an environment where those may run (at least not that I know of).

By the way, and I am going a bit off-topic here and asking for help:
wanting to find a way to batch rename files using a pattern and sequence, I
came across this expression, that gives an idea of how complex this can get:

ls | %{Rename-Item $_ -NewName ("NewFileName-{0}.jpg" -f $nr++)}

and now the questions, I wasn't able to understand the  %{ }  and how does
$nr++ relate to {0}, what are these constructs?

Best and thanks in advance,
Aitor
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Re: [Freedos-user] FYI: I'm speaking at FOSDEM'21 this weekend

[Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-user]

Yep, totally clueless over here lmao

Anyway, if anyone here is interested in the actual state of the project as 
opposed to accepting the claims of those quick to discountenance and slow to 
personally contribute, you're welcome to jump on over to [our 
forum](https://groups.google.com/g/night-dos-kernel). Feel free to join and 
help out the effort! :)

BTW, Jim! Thank you for highlighting our project in your video presentation! :D

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, February 5, 2021 7:28 AM, tom ehlert t...@drivesnapshot.de wrote:

>> I want to get "1.3" finally wrapped up, and I'd like to have a
>> "2.0" someday. The NightDOS folks are working
>
> english is not my first language so i could missread this.
> but doesn't 'folks are working' suggest a plurality of human being,
> opposed to the reality of a single guy who ever contributed, but is
> currently busy with other stuff
>
>> on their updated kernel - if they can get it working
>
> currently, after 5+ years of development they have functionality of a
> FreeDOS 512 byte bootsector: read a file from FAT16 into memory.
> that's it.
>
>> and still runs all 16-bit DOS applications,
>
> or run ANY application.
>
>> then we could include that as an alternative kernel
>> for people who (a) have a more modern system, and (b) opt-in to use it.**
>
>> ** But, NightDOS is a long way from being able to do that. The
>> goals of NightDOS are pretty lofty,
>
> and he has not the faintest idea how to get there.
> Tom
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user___
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Re: [Freedos-user] FYI: I'm speaking at FOSDEM'21 this weekend

[Bryan Kilgallin]

Thanks, Jim:

My presentation is pre-recorded, and I've uploaded a copy to the FreeDOS 
YouTube channel (will go "live" after my presentation on Sunday).


I am enjoying this history. And I've learned who did what. I appreciate 
that it's made by real people. I get to see the developer's perspective.

--
members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/


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Re: [Freedos-user] FYI: I'm speaking at FOSDEM'21 this weekend

[Bryan Kilgallin]

Jim:

I'm doing a "lightning talk" that's meant to be a fun, fast-paced talk 
about "Why your PC only has 16 colors." It's actually about the 16 text 
foreground colors, and 8 background colors - and why they look the way 
they do.


I would like to read or view that.
--
members.iinet.net.au/~kilgallin/


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Re: [Freedos-user] FYI: I'm speaking at FOSDEM'21 this weekend

[tom ehlert]

> I want to get "1.3" finally wrapped up, and I'd like to have a
> "2.0" someday. The NightDOS folks are working

english is not my first language so i could missread this.

but doesn't 'folks are working' suggest a plurality of human being,
opposed to the reality of a single guy who ever contributed, but is
currently busy with other stuff


>  on their updated  kernel - if they can get it working

currently, after 5+ years of development they have functionality of a
FreeDOS 512 byte bootsector: read a file from FAT16 into memory.
that's it.

>  and still runs all 16-bit DOS applications,
or run *ANY* application.

>  then we could include that as an alternative kernel
> for people who (a) have a more modern system, and (b) opt-in to use it.**


> ** But, NightDOS is a long way from being able to do that. The
> goals of NightDOS are pretty lofty,
and he has not the faintest idea how to get there.


Tom



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Re: [Freedos-user] FYI: I'm speaking at FOSDEM'21 this weekend

[Jim Hall]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 3:44 PM Jim Hall  wrote:

> [..]
>
And there are other "like to have" things that would be great to have in a
> FreeDOS "2.0" like an alternative DOS command.com shell. I described that
> here long ago, and on the blog - would love to have an expanded
> command.com that uses a BASIC-like syntax but still maintains
> compatibility with DOS BAT files. At the time, you pointed out that Windows
> command.com did something similar to what I proposed - but I don't use
> Windows so I wasn't aware of that.
>

For reference, this is the expanded "BASIC-like" syntax I mentioned in
2018. If any new developers would like to write something new, this would
be an interesting challenge:

https://freedos-project.blogspot.com/2018/08/expanding-freedos-commandcom.html


Summary:


Variables
As in current DOS batch, variables can store either numerical or string
data. Variable names can be of any reasonable length, and can be referenced
in uppercase or lowercase.

Use SET to assign values to variables, and BASIC's LET to assign values
based on arithmetic. LET becomes a superset of SET that also supports
arithmetic evaluation.

SET A=4
SET DIR=*C:\FDOS\BIN*


And surround a variable with % to reference its value:

SET A=4
LET A=%A% + 1
ECHO %A%


Output
Use DOS batch's ECHO to display output instead of BASIC's PRINT:

ECHO *Hello world*


Tests
Support the standard DOS batch programming tests, such as == to test
equality, and NOT to negate a test. Add extra constructs to test
inequality, greater-than and less-than. One possible solution is to assume
simple DOS batch programming IF constructs and use Unix-style brackets for
the extra constructs:

IF ERRORLEVEL 0 ECHO *Success*
IF NOT ERRORLEVEL 0 ECHO *Fail*
IF EXIST FILE.TXT ECHO *Exists*


And:

IF %VALUE%==1 ECHO *Equal*
IF NOT %VALUE%==1 ECHO *Not equal*


And it makes sense that brackets can be used for equivalent standard
evaluation too (for example, EQ for ==). I'm using Fortran-style comparison
operators here:

IF [ %VALUE% EQ 5 ] ECHO *Equal*
IF [ %VALUE% NE 5 ] ECHO *Not equal*
IF [ %VALUE% GT 5 ] ECHO *Greater than*
IF [ %VALUE% GE 5 ] ECHO *Greater or equal*
IF [ %VALUE% LT 5 ] ECHO *Less than*
IF [ %VALUE% LE 5 ] ECHO *Less or equal*


Looping
The FOR statement would need to be extended as a *for-next* loop:

FOR N IN 1 TO 10
ECHO %N%
NEXT


Or as the traditional DOS *for-do* one-line shortcut:

FOR N IN 1 TO 10 DO ECHO %N%


And add a special IN (…) construct to create an iteration over a set, same
as DOS batch:

FOR %%N IN (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10) DO ECHO %%N
FOR %%F IN (*.TXT) DO ECHO %%F


Branching
Similar to both BASIC and DOS batch, GOTO should continue to use : to mark
labels:

SET N=1
:LOOP
ECHO %N%
LET N=%N% + 1
IF [ %N% LT 10 ] GOTO LOOP


Comments
And of course, comments remain the same from BASIC and DOS batch
programming:

REM *This is a comment*


Execution
If you called the BASIC-like "shell" using a special parameter (like /P)
then it would be nice for anything else you specify that isn't recognized
as a shell statement (assuming other syntax is correct) get treated like an
external command. That would make this more like a shell:

IF EXIST FILE.TXT *EDIT* FILE.TXT


Also other internal constructs for CALL and ERRORLEVEL and SHIFT and PATH,
but you get the idea.
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Re: [Freedos-user] FYI: I'm speaking at FOSDEM'21 this weekend

[Jim Hall]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 3:44 PM Jim Hall  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 3:21 PM tom ehlert  wrote:
>
>> > (and a future "2.0" someday).
>>
>> I am a bit surprised by this. any news that we all are not aware of?
>>
>>
>
> Same as I've said before in the email lists, and elsewhere:
>
> I want to get "1.3" finally wrapped up, and I'd like to have a "2.0"
> someday. The NightDOS folks are working on their updated kernel - if
> they can get it working *and* still runs all 16-bit DOS applications,
> then we could include that as an alternative kernel for people who (a) have
> a more modern system, and (b) opt-in to use it.**
>
> And there are other "like to have" things that would be great to have in a
> FreeDOS "2.0" like an alternative DOS command.com shell. I described that
> here long ago, and on the blog - would love to have an expanded
> command.com that uses a BASIC-like syntax but still maintains
> compatibility with DOS BAT files. At the time, you pointed out that Windows
> command.com did something similar to what I proposed - but I don't use
> Windows so I wasn't aware of that.
>
> And "2.0" still needs to be "DOS" so needs to support all 16-bit DOS
> applications. And I would want FreeDOS to remain a command-line operating
> system.
>
>
> So, no surprises to anyone on this list.
>
> Jim
>
> ** But, NightDOS is a long way from being able to do that. The goals of
> NightDOS are pretty lofty, so they have a lot of work here. I think it will
> be a while before we see that.
>



My presentation is pre-recorded, and I've uploaded a copy to the FreeDOS
YouTube channel (will go "live" after my presentation on Sunday).

Here's the video: https://youtu.be/uP77xJA8-4k


* 0 to 12 min : my history + some DOS history
* 12 min to 27 min : FreeDOS up until "now"
* 27 min to 41 min : FreeDOS 1.3
* 41 min to end : FreeDOS "2.0" wish list
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Re: [Freedos-user] FYI: I'm speaking at FOSDEM'21 this weekend

[Jim Hall]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 3:21 PM tom ehlert  wrote:

> > (and a future "2.0" someday).
>
> I am a bit surprised by this. any news that we all are not aware of?
>
>

Same as I've said before in the email lists, and elsewhere:

I want to get "1.3" finally wrapped up, and I'd like to have a "2.0"
someday. The NightDOS folks are working on their updated kernel - if
they can get it working *and* still runs all 16-bit DOS applications, then
we could include that as an alternative kernel for people who (a) have a
more modern system, and (b) opt-in to use it.**

And there are other "like to have" things that would be great to have in a
FreeDOS "2.0" like an alternative DOS command.com shell. I described that
here long ago, and on the blog - would love to have an expanded command.com
that uses a BASIC-like syntax but still maintains compatibility with DOS
BAT files. At the time, you pointed out that Windows command.com did
something similar to what I proposed - but I don't use Windows so I wasn't
aware of that.

And "2.0" still needs to be "DOS" so needs to support all 16-bit DOS
applications. And I would want FreeDOS to remain a command-line operating
system.


So, no surprises to anyone on this list.

Jim

** But, NightDOS is a long way from being able to do that. The goals of
NightDOS are pretty lofty, so they have a lot of work here. I think it will
be a while before we see that.
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Re: [Freedos-user] FYI: I'm speaking at FOSDEM'21 this weekend

[tom ehlert]

> (and a future "2.0" someday).

I am a bit surprised by this. any news that we all are not aware of?


Tom



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Re: [Freedos-user] FYI: I'm speaking at FOSDEM'21 this weekend

[Bart Oldeman]

As a former FOSDEM presenter I wish you good luck Jim, also getting up
early this Sunday :-) !

I have a little scheduling conflict with the HPC devroom
(https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/track/hpc_big_data_and_data_science/)
that I'm helping to organize but I'll have a look at the recording for
sure
(in fact all talks are pre-recorded, to make sure everything goes smoothly).

Bart


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Re: [Freedos-user] FYI: I'm speaking at FOSDEM'21 this weekend

[Karen Lewellen]

Congratulations!
Looks like a terrific event.



On Tue, 2 Feb 2021, Jim Hall wrote:


Just wanted to share a quick note that I'm doing two presentations at
FOSDEM'21 in the retrocomputing devroom, on Sunday.

More info here:
https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/track/retrocomputing/


I'm doing a "lightning talk" that's meant to be a fun, fast-paced talk
about "Why your PC only has 16 colors." It's actually about the 16 text
foreground colors, and 8 background colors - and why they look the way they
do.

I'm also doing an hour-long talk about FreeDOS. No surprises for anyone
here: it's a bit of history, a bit of current status, and plans for FreeDOS
1.3 (and a future "2.0" someday).

FOSDEM'21 is completely online this year, and the website says you don't
even need to register to "attend" the presentations.

Jim




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[Freedos-user] FYI: I'm speaking at FOSDEM'21 this weekend

[Jim Hall]

Just wanted to share a quick note that I'm doing two presentations at
FOSDEM'21 in the retrocomputing devroom, on Sunday.

More info here:
https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/track/retrocomputing/


I'm doing a "lightning talk" that's meant to be a fun, fast-paced talk
about "Why your PC only has 16 colors." It's actually about the 16 text
foreground colors, and 8 background colors - and why they look the way they
do.

I'm also doing an hour-long talk about FreeDOS. No surprises for anyone
here: it's a bit of history, a bit of current status, and plans for FreeDOS
1.3 (and a future "2.0" someday).

FOSDEM'21 is completely online this year, and the website says you don't
even need to register to "attend" the presentations.

Jim
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