Re: [Freedos-user] a unique directory tree question?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi Bret,
In this case i wish to only remove the directory and sub directories 
pkunzip created when I tried to unzip the first incomplete zip archive.
I will not lose anything, the new correct archive includes all the 
materials that did end up in place plus new material.  As the directory 
is now, I may never find anything because much of what did unzip properly 
is in the  wrong place.
I may back up this just in case, but would feel better starting cleanly 
fresh.
Thanks again,
Kare


On Tue, 28 Jun 2016, Bret Johnson wrote:

> The DELTREE utility should work OK, though it's a dangerous utility to use.  
> You can easily end up accidentally deleting some things that you really 
> wanted to keep.
>
> I generally only use DELTREE in a small, "confined" case where I'm really 
> sure there's nothing "hidden" or forgotten that I really don't want to delete 
> (I don't know your exact situation).  When I'm trying to do a "large" project 
> where I'm not sure of the consequences, I generally use a dedicated visual 
> file management utility (I personally like Necromancer's DOS Navigator, 
> though there are a ton of similar programs out there).
>
> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] a unique directory tree question?

[Rugxulo]

Hi, Bret,

(somewhat off-topic)

On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 6:21 PM, Bret Johnson  wrote:
> The DELTREE utility should work OK, though it's a dangerous utility to use.  
> You can easily end up
> accidentally deleting some things that you really wanted to keep.

Backup backup backup!

> I generally only use DELTREE in a small, "confined" case where I'm really 
> sure there's nothing "hidden"
> or forgotten that I really don't want to delete (I don't know your exact 
> situation).  When I'm trying to do a
> "large" project where I'm not sure of the consequences, I generally use a 
> dedicated visual file management
> utility (I personally like Necromancer's DOS Navigator, though there are a 
> ton of similar programs out there).

There's a newer fork of NDN available here (as I assume you're still
using old classic from 2010):

= 
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B_wEiYjzVkC0ZGtkbENENzF1Nms=drive_web

= (actually, I discovered it here, but while the maintainer [CandyMan]
hasn't really promoted it, he's still somewhat active in other
projects) http://board.flatassembler.net/topic.php?p=186222#186222

EDIT: I don't actually know if this now is newer than the ones of his
that I still have on my hard drive (from this past March). I didn't
test them much, and with no one else actively interested, it seemed a
less valuable way to spend my time. So I'm just telling you for
completeness, if you want to test them.   :-/

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Re: [Freedos-user] a unique directory tree question?

[Bret Johnson]

The DELTREE utility should work OK, though it's a dangerous utility to use.  
You can easily end up accidentally deleting some things that you really wanted 
to keep.

I generally only use DELTREE in a small, "confined" case where I'm really sure 
there's nothing "hidden" or forgotten that I really don't want to delete (I 
don't know your exact situation).  When I'm trying to do a "large" project 
where I'm not sure of the consequences, I generally use a dedicated visual file 
management utility (I personally like Necromancer's DOS Navigator, though there 
are a ton of similar programs out there).


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Re: [Freedos-user] a unique directory tree question?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi  Bret,
Thanks for such an informative reply.
I actually suspect you may  be correct about the combination of file names.
I requested that the person commissioned to gather and zip the information 
do it a second time.
The new .zip archive is..about twice as large as the first one.  as in from 
about half a gig to almost a full one, with these all being text files.
I suspect that either they did not get everything the first time, or their 
correcting special characters in the file names, something they told me 
ended up  being needful, produced a zip file with all the goods.
I suspect? it will be best to create the entire archive again, rather than 
try and let pkunzip fix the first one with this new zip archive.
  If I wish to remove everything, would this be the deltree utility?  its 
been  a long long time, and I am using ms dos  7.1
Thanks again,
Kare


On Tue, 28 Jun 2016, Bret Johnson wrote:

> I'm a little late responding to this.  I haven't seen these particular things 
> discussed yet, and I think they need to be.
>
> Regarding directories, there is the "width" (the number of 
> files/subdirectories in a {sub}directory) and the "height" (the number of 
> levels of subdirectories underneath the root).  The root directory does have 
> a width limit which is defined when the drive is formatted (usually 128, 256, 
> or 512).  The root directory is the only one with a width limit -- there is 
> no limit to the number of files/subdirectories in a subdirectory (other than 
> the fact that all of the entries must be uniquely named).  Also, as a side 
> note, early versions of FAT did not even allow subdirectories.
>
> While technically there is no limit to the depth, the entire name of a file, 
> including the drive letter, colon, backslashes, and dots, cannot be longer 
> than 64 characters total when using short (8.3) names.  DOS uses 64-byte 
> buffers to transfer names back and forth internally as it is manipulating the 
> files and directories, and that is a hard limit.
>
> So, if your directory names are only one or two characters each, you can go 
> several levels deep.  If they're all 8 letters (or even longer if you use 8.3 
> directory names), you can only go a few levels deep.  Also not that the 
> 64-character limit applies AFTER the file names are expanded (e.g., if you 
> normally use "." and "..", or leave out the drive letter, use SUBST drives, 
> use environment variables, etc.).
>
> When using Long File Names, there is also a limit, but it is much longer -- 
> 260 characters.
>
> ---
>
> Regarding your particular problem, I suspect it is related to the 
> relationship between short and long file names, and the naming 
> inconsistencies that occur between different systems as directories and files 
> are manipulated.  I will give a specific example.
>
> Many years ago (when Windows 95 was still en vogue), the IT department at a 
> company I worked for sent out a batch file that everybody was supposed to run 
> on their computer to fix some kind of problem (I don't remember exactly what 
> it was supposed to fix, and it is irrelevant to the point, anyway).  In 
> Windows there is a "Program Files" directory, which is normally PROGRA~1 when 
> using short file names.  In the batch file the IT department sent out, it 
> referenced the directory as PROGRA~1 wither bothering to check if PROGRA~1 
> even existed.  On my computer, it didn't -- I had manipulated my directory 
> structure enough that my short name for "Program Files" was PROGRA~2 instead 
> of PROGRA~1.  I called the IT department and told them what I found, and they 
> basically told me it was my fault and they weren't going to change their 
> batch file.
>
> It's possible that your particular problems are related to something like 
> that -- the short file names of one computer conflict with or somehow 
> "confuse" the other computer.  I don't think you said which DOS LFN program 
> you were using (there are several of them and they all have their own 
> quirks).  It's possible that one of the programs (PKZIP/PKUNZIP, the LFN 
> program, the DOS kernel) is buggy, or that some combination of the programs 
> is acting weird, particularly if the short file names are not consistent on 
> the different computers.  When you're mixing long and short file names 
> together you need to be very careful -- things don't always work quite like 
> you would expect.
>
> Long File Names are nice, but the way MS actually implemented them in FAT 
> was, in my opinion, a horrible design.
> 
> Fivebreak.com
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Re: [Freedos-user] a unique directory tree question?

[Bret Johnson]

I'm a little late responding to this.  I haven't seen these particular things 
discussed yet, and I think they need to be.

Regarding directories, there is the "width" (the number of files/subdirectories 
in a {sub}directory) and the "height" (the number of levels of subdirectories 
underneath the root).  The root directory does have a width limit which is 
defined when the drive is formatted (usually 128, 256, or 512).  The root 
directory is the only one with a width limit -- there is no limit to the number 
of files/subdirectories in a subdirectory (other than the fact that all of the 
entries must be uniquely named).  Also, as a side note, early versions of FAT 
did not even allow subdirectories.

While technically there is no limit to the depth, the entire name of a file, 
including the drive letter, colon, backslashes, and dots, cannot be longer than 
64 characters total when using short (8.3) names.  DOS uses 64-byte buffers to 
transfer names back and forth internally as it is manipulating the files and 
directories, and that is a hard limit.

So, if your directory names are only one or two characters each, you can go 
several levels deep.  If they're all 8 letters (or even longer if you use 8.3 
directory names), you can only go a few levels deep.  Also not that the 
64-character limit applies AFTER the file names are expanded (e.g., if you 
normally use "." and "..", or leave out the drive letter, use SUBST drives, use 
environment variables, etc.).

When using Long File Names, there is also a limit, but it is much longer -- 260 
characters.

---

Regarding your particular problem, I suspect it is related to the relationship 
between short and long file names, and the naming inconsistencies that occur 
between different systems as directories and files are manipulated.  I will 
give a specific example.

Many years ago (when Windows 95 was still en vogue), the IT department at a 
company I worked for sent out a batch file that everybody was supposed to run 
on their computer to fix some kind of problem (I don't remember exactly what it 
was supposed to fix, and it is irrelevant to the point, anyway).  In Windows 
there is a "Program Files" directory, which is normally PROGRA~1 when using 
short file names.  In the batch file the IT department sent out, it referenced 
the directory as PROGRA~1 wither bothering to check if PROGRA~1 even existed.  
On my computer, it didn't -- I had manipulated my directory structure enough 
that my short name for "Program Files" was PROGRA~2 instead of PROGRA~1.  I 
called the IT department and told them what I found, and they basically told me 
it was my fault and they weren't going to change their batch file.

It's possible that your particular problems are related to something like that 
-- the short file names of one computer conflict with or somehow "confuse" the 
other computer.  I don't think you said which DOS LFN program you were using 
(there are several of them and they all have their own quirks).  It's possible 
that one of the programs (PKZIP/PKUNZIP, the LFN program, the DOS kernel) is 
buggy, or that some combination of the programs is acting weird, particularly 
if the short file names are not consistent on the different computers.  When 
you're mixing long and short file names together you need to be very careful -- 
things don't always work quite like you would expect.

Long File Names are nice, but the way MS actually implemented them in FAT was, 
in my opinion, a horrible design.

Fivebreak.com
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Re: [Freedos-user] a unique directory tree question?

[Karen Lewellen]

That may be the issue, but the more I check the less I think that is the 
case.  Especially with so many files in the wrong sub directories all 
together.  Granted i must check again, but when I reviewed the contents, I 
did  not find spaces.
Something else to consider though.


On Sat, 25 Jun 2016, Don Flowers wrote:

> IF there are spaces in any of the files or directories, that could very
> well be an issue, especially since you didn't create the original archive.
> If that is the case you may have to manually reconstruct the zipfile for
> DOS compatibility.
>
> On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 5:48 PM, dmccunney 
> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Karen Lewellen
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> I have a rather Unusual question about directory trees in dos.
>>> I have a zip compressed file that contains rather a large number of .txt
>>> files.
>>> the files  are of stories, and series, with the person who put the
>> materials
>>>  together using  some major breakdown, for example an item might
>>> look like this.
>>> d:\stories\abandoned\series\the-end-of-time.txt
>>> Now when I ran pkunzip on the archive, the directory tree was created
>>> correctly.
>>> By which I mean  there is a directory for abandoned, then a sub-directory
>>> for series, then the stories underneath.
>>> However in allot of cases the actual directory holding the .txt file is
>>> different.
>>> for the record, I am using word perfect to read the files.
>>> My question is this. is there a limit to the number of branches so to
>> speak,
>>> one can have in a dos directory tree?
>>
>> I am unaware of one.  There *is* a limit on the number of files you
>> can have in the root of a DOS drive, but there's no limit I'm aware of
>> on the number of files or directories in directories created off of
>> root.
>>
>>> Frankly I have never seen this problem before.  I do have lfn loaded, so
>> do
>>> not think it is the names of the files, especially since some of the
>>> content is present, and I got no error when I was unzipping the archive.
>>
>> I don't understand the problem.  What do you mean when you say "actual
>> directory holding the .txt file is different."  Different from what?
>>
>> Are you saying if you look at the archive with PKUNZIP -T, the
>> directories listed as components of the archive have different names
>> from the ones that are created on disk when you extract the archive?
>> Can you provide an example of the name in the archive and the name
>> created on disk, or a listing created by PKUNZIP of the archive
>> contents?
>>
>> (And using Word Perfect to read the files is irrelevant to the issue.
>> The key is the files *can* be read and are intact.)
>>
>>> Thoughts?
>>
>> See above.  Worst case, since the files are intact (and presumably
>> extracted under the names they were created with), you could go back
>> and rename the extracted directories to correspond to what you believe
>> the names ought to be.
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Karen
>> __
>> Dennis
>>
>>
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Re: [Freedos-user] a unique directory tree question?

[Karen Lewellen]

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016, dmccunney wrote:

>
> I don't understand the problem.  What do you mean when you say "actual
> directory holding the .txt file is different."  Different from what?
>
> Are you saying if you look at the archive with PKUNZIP -T, the
> directories listed as components of the archive have different names
> from the ones that are created on disk when you extract the archive?
> Can you provide an example of the name in the archive and the name
> created on disk, or a listing created by PKUNZIP of the archive
> contents?
>
> (And using Word Perfect to read the files is irrelevant to the issue.
> The key is the files *can* be read and are intact.)
No, the key is the directories for the file names are present, but the 
files themselves are either missing all together, or placed in the wrong 
subdirectories.  who said the files were intact?
If in
  for example,
d:\stories\abandoned\series\storyname\
I actually found the file associated with that story name...we would not be 
having this discussion.
Instead as I sought to explain pkunzip created the directory and 
sub directory structure but either placed the files in the wrong 
directories, or did not place them at all.  I suspect the former, when 
unziped the entire directory is about 3 gig in size.
  However locating things in the wrong place assuming that is the real 
problem would be difficult to say the least.
I wonder if pkunzip would correct the issue with a fresh copy of the 
archive?
Kare



>
>> Thoughts?
>
> See above.  Worst case, since the files are intact (and presumably
> extracted under the names they were created with), you could go back
> and rename the extracted directories to correspond to what you believe
> the names ought to be.
>
>> Thanks,
>> Karen
> __
> Dennis
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] a unique directory tree question?

[Tom Ehlert]

> I have a rather Unusual question about directory trees in dos.
> I have a zip compressed file that contains rather a large number of .txt
> files.
> the files  are of stories, and series, with the person who put the 
> materials together using  some major breakdown, for example an item might
> look like this.
> d:\stories\abandoned\series\the-end-of-time.txt
> Now when I ran pkunzip on the archive, the directory tree was created 
> correctly.
> By which I mean  there is a directory for abandoned, then a sub-directory
> for series, then the stories underneath.
> However in allot of cases the actual directory holding the .txt file is
> different.

Here would be a nice place to be more specific, and give an explicit
example.


> for the record, I am using word perfect to read the files.
shouldn't matter.
use the DIR command to show *real* filenames.


> My question is this.
> is there a limit to the number of branches so to speak, one can have in a
> dos directory tree?
no.

sounds like a bug in LFNDOS.

> Frankly I have never seen this problem before.  I do have lfn loaded, so do
> not think it is the names of the files, especially since some of the 
> content is present, and I got no error when I was unzipping the archive.
> Thoughts?
> Thanks,
> Karen


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Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Kind regards
Tom Ehlert
+49-241-79886


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Re: [Freedos-user] a unique directory tree question?

[Don Flowers]

IF there are spaces in any of the files or directories, that could very
well be an issue, especially since you didn't create the original archive.
If that is the case you may have to manually reconstruct the zipfile for
DOS compatibility.

On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 5:48 PM, dmccunney 
wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Karen Lewellen
>  wrote:
>
> > I have a rather Unusual question about directory trees in dos.
> > I have a zip compressed file that contains rather a large number of .txt
> > files.
> > the files  are of stories, and series, with the person who put the
> materials
> >  together using  some major breakdown, for example an item might
> > look like this.
> > d:\stories\abandoned\series\the-end-of-time.txt
> > Now when I ran pkunzip on the archive, the directory tree was created
> > correctly.
> > By which I mean  there is a directory for abandoned, then a sub-directory
> > for series, then the stories underneath.
> > However in allot of cases the actual directory holding the .txt file is
> > different.
> > for the record, I am using word perfect to read the files.
> > My question is this. is there a limit to the number of branches so to
> speak,
> > one can have in a dos directory tree?
>
> I am unaware of one.  There *is* a limit on the number of files you
> can have in the root of a DOS drive, but there's no limit I'm aware of
> on the number of files or directories in directories created off of
> root.
>
> > Frankly I have never seen this problem before.  I do have lfn loaded, so
> do
> > not think it is the names of the files, especially since some of the
> > content is present, and I got no error when I was unzipping the archive.
>
> I don't understand the problem.  What do you mean when you say "actual
> directory holding the .txt file is different."  Different from what?
>
> Are you saying if you look at the archive with PKUNZIP -T, the
> directories listed as components of the archive have different names
> from the ones that are created on disk when you extract the archive?
> Can you provide an example of the name in the archive and the name
> created on disk, or a listing created by PKUNZIP of the archive
> contents?
>
> (And using Word Perfect to read the files is irrelevant to the issue.
> The key is the files *can* be read and are intact.)
>
> > Thoughts?
>
> See above.  Worst case, since the files are intact (and presumably
> extracted under the names they were created with), you could go back
> and rename the extracted directories to correspond to what you believe
> the names ought to be.
>
> > Thanks,
> > Karen
> __
> Dennis
>
>
> --
> Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
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Re: [Freedos-user] a unique directory tree question?

[dmccunney]

On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Karen Lewellen
 wrote:

> I have a rather Unusual question about directory trees in dos.
> I have a zip compressed file that contains rather a large number of .txt
> files.
> the files  are of stories, and series, with the person who put the materials
>  together using  some major breakdown, for example an item might
> look like this.
> d:\stories\abandoned\series\the-end-of-time.txt
> Now when I ran pkunzip on the archive, the directory tree was created
> correctly.
> By which I mean  there is a directory for abandoned, then a sub-directory
> for series, then the stories underneath.
> However in allot of cases the actual directory holding the .txt file is
> different.
> for the record, I am using word perfect to read the files.
> My question is this. is there a limit to the number of branches so to speak,
> one can have in a dos directory tree?

I am unaware of one.  There *is* a limit on the number of files you
can have in the root of a DOS drive, but there's no limit I'm aware of
on the number of files or directories in directories created off of
root.

> Frankly I have never seen this problem before.  I do have lfn loaded, so do
> not think it is the names of the files, especially since some of the
> content is present, and I got no error when I was unzipping the archive.

I don't understand the problem.  What do you mean when you say "actual
directory holding the .txt file is different."  Different from what?

Are you saying if you look at the archive with PKUNZIP -T, the
directories listed as components of the archive have different names
from the ones that are created on disk when you extract the archive?
Can you provide an example of the name in the archive and the name
created on disk, or a listing created by PKUNZIP of the archive
contents?

(And using Word Perfect to read the files is irrelevant to the issue.
The key is the files *can* be read and are intact.)

> Thoughts?

See above.  Worst case, since the files are intact (and presumably
extracted under the names they were created with), you could go back
and rename the extracted directories to correspond to what you believe
the names ought to be.

> Thanks,
> Karen
__
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Re: [Freedos-user] a unique directory tree question?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi,
My edition of pkunzip is 2.50 as well, circle 1999.
While I have three editions of wp on my computer in this case I used 
wp6.0
I do agree about 8.3, I did not create the  source archive, so I can 
confirm that 8.3 is not to my knowledge  used in many cases.
I rune only dos on my machine ms dos 7.1, so I  start word perfect from the 
c prompt, its in the path line of my auto exec.bat  file.
I wonder if, for example there are spaces in the file names, that would 
prevent pkunzip from placing the files in the correct directory?
it is a large archive almost half a gig compressed.


On Sat, 25 Jun 2016, Don Flowers wrote:

> Which version of pkunzip are you using? And what version of WP? I use
> Pkunzip 2.50 and have gone up to 4 directories beyond root with no issues,
> but I do stick to 8.3 file names. Do you use a menu program to start WP? Do
> you use the WP retrieve file utility to access the file or another method.?
>
> On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Karen Lewellen 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> I have a rather Unusual question about directory trees in dos.
>> I have a zip compressed file that contains rather a large number of .txt
>> files.
>> the files  are of stories, and series, with the person who put the
>> materials together using  some major breakdown, for example an item might
>> look like this.
>> d:\stories\abandoned\series\the-end-of-time.txt
>> Now when I ran pkunzip on the archive, the directory tree was created
>> correctly.
>> By which I mean  there is a directory for abandoned, then a sub-directory
>> for series, then the stories underneath.
>> However in allot of cases the actual directory holding the .txt file is
>> different.
>> for the record, I am using word perfect to read the files.
>> My question is this.
>> is there a limit to the number of branches so to speak, one can have in a
>> dos directory tree?
>> Frankly I have never seen this problem before.  I do have lfn loaded, so do
>> not think it is the names of the files, especially since some of the
>> content is present, and I got no error when I was unzipping the archive.
>> Thoughts?
>> Thanks,
>> Karen
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
>> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
>> present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
>> everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
>> http://sdm.link/attshape
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>>
>

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Re: [Freedos-user] a unique directory tree question?

[Don Flowers]

Which version of pkunzip are you using? And what version of WP? I use
Pkunzip 2.50 and have gone up to 4 directories beyond root with no issues,
but I do stick to 8.3 file names. Do you use a menu program to start WP? Do
you use the WP retrieve file utility to access the file or another method.?

On Sat, Jun 25, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Karen Lewellen 
wrote:

> Hi all,
> I have a rather Unusual question about directory trees in dos.
> I have a zip compressed file that contains rather a large number of .txt
> files.
> the files  are of stories, and series, with the person who put the
> materials together using  some major breakdown, for example an item might
> look like this.
> d:\stories\abandoned\series\the-end-of-time.txt
> Now when I ran pkunzip on the archive, the directory tree was created
> correctly.
> By which I mean  there is a directory for abandoned, then a sub-directory
> for series, then the stories underneath.
> However in allot of cases the actual directory holding the .txt file is
> different.
> for the record, I am using word perfect to read the files.
> My question is this.
> is there a limit to the number of branches so to speak, one can have in a
> dos directory tree?
> Frankly I have never seen this problem before.  I do have lfn loaded, so do
> not think it is the names of the files, especially since some of the
> content is present, and I got no error when I was unzipping the archive.
> Thoughts?
> Thanks,
> Karen
>
>
>
> --
> Attend Shape: An AT Tech Expo July 15-16. Meet us at AT Park in San
> Francisco, CA to explore cutting-edge tech and listen to tech luminaries
> present their vision of the future. This family event has something for
> everyone, including kids. Get more information and register today.
> http://sdm.link/attshape
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> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
>
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[Freedos-user] a unique directory tree question?

[Karen Lewellen]

Hi all,
I have a rather Unusual question about directory trees in dos.
I have a zip compressed file that contains rather a large number of .txt 
files.
the files  are of stories, and series, with the person who put the 
materials together using  some major breakdown, for example an item might 
look like this.
d:\stories\abandoned\series\the-end-of-time.txt
Now when I ran pkunzip on the archive, the directory tree was created 
correctly.
By which I mean  there is a directory for abandoned, then a sub-directory 
for series, then the stories underneath.
However in allot of cases the actual directory holding the .txt file is 
different.
for the record, I am using word perfect to read the files.
My question is this.
is there a limit to the number of branches so to speak, one can have in a 
dos directory tree?
Frankly I have never seen this problem before.  I do have lfn loaded, so do 
not think it is the names of the files, especially since some of the 
content is present, and I got no error when I was unzipping the archive.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Karen


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