Re: [FRIAM] gmail forums exploded
You can also get back the classic/legacy gmail by using IE 8 or firefox 4 - both of wich are slighly faster for general websurfing compared to the most recent/modern versions. That being said what else is out there for webmail? Gmail has some relatively good street-cred. Wich is hard to compete with when saying to someone: oh send me mail to my skydrive acount-for example. On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 9:13 PM, Sarbajit Roy sroy...@gmail.com wrote: ** Thanks for the link I switched to an IMAP client (T-Bird) 3 days ago when their latest nonsense started. Gillian Densmore wrote: The new gmail in box, compose, and forcing hang outs on you has caused lots of threads like productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/yl_XPO5Hw6Y[726-750-false]http://productforums.google.com/forum/#%21topic/gmail/yl_XPO5Hw6Y%5B726-750-false%5D with wonderfully succinct feedback as: It's junk, It fucking sucks It's horible horse shit-how do I change to classic. And more -- FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
[FRIAM] TLS encryption [was gmail forums exploded]
On 8/16/13 9:13 PM, Sarbajit Roy wrote: I switched to an IMAP client (T-Bird) 3 days ago when their latest nonsense started. Speaking of e-mail providers, I've noticed that a some of my providers don't provide TLS encryption. Can anyone suggest one that passes http://www.checktls.com/? The usual suspects are surely all PRISM-equipped by now, so I was thinking of something off the beaten path. ;-) Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] TLS encryption [was gmail forums exploded]
Some quick tests. From a few sites off the top of my head, it seems that e-mail in transit is more secure if one uses regional ISPs.. Big companies: Gmail, yes (but named in PRISM slides) Hotmail, no Yahoo, no Earthlink, no Comcast, no Apple's icloud.com, no Regional ISPs Cybermesa, yes SWCP, yes web-ster.com, yes FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] TLS encryption [was gmail forums exploded]
try https: // ecomail DOT at On 8/17/13, Marcus G. Daniels mar...@snoutfarm.com wrote: On 8/16/13 9:13 PM, Sarbajit Roy wrote: I switched to an IMAP client (T-Bird) 3 days ago when their latest nonsense started. Speaking of e-mail providers, I've noticed that a some of my providers don't provide TLS encryption. Can anyone suggest one that passes http://www.checktls.com/? FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
[FRIAM] You're invited to Clones or Cures: The Politics and Ethics of Stem Cell... (Aug 19, 2013)
Prof. Sidney Golub, a leading cancer researcher and bio- ethicist, will discuss some of the most vexing -- and interesting -- issues in our times: the complex clashes between bio-medical research and the body politic as played out around stem cell research. He will explain what stem cells are, their potential for curing disease, and why they are so controversial. Dr. Golub is chair of the...Share this event on Facebook and Twitter We hope you can make it!Cheers,Inst. for Analytic Journalism KSFR Radio -- Event Summary: -- Event: Clones or Cures: The Politics and Ethics of Stem Cell Research Date: Monday, August 19, 2013 from 7:30 PM to 9:00 PM (MDT) Location: lt;bgt;Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Santa Felt;/bgt;lt;br /gt;107 W Barcelona Rdlt;br /gt;Santa Fe, NM 87505lt;br /gt; -- Event Details: -- Prof. Sidney Golub, a leading cancer researcher and bio-ethicist, will discuss some of the most vexing -- and interesting -- issues in our times: the complex clashes between bio-medical research and the body politic as played out around stem cell research. He will explain what stem cells are, their potential for curing disease, and why they are so controversial. Dr. Golub is chair of the University of California-Irvine Human Stem Cell Research Oversight Committee. He will be speaking Monday, Aug. 19 at 7:30 p.m. at the Unitarian Congregation, 107 West Barcelona, Santa Fe. Prof. Golub's research is currently focused on how science policy in the U.S. impacts medical research. I am particularly concerned with how we make and implement policy on human stem cells including embryonic and other pluripotent stem cells, he said. One aspect of this is exploring the differences between the states on stem cell policy. A related interest focuses on how to promote ethical principles within basic and translational research. Golub's lecture is sponsored by Santa Fe's Inst. for Analytic Jounalism and KSFR, community radio for Santa Fe and Northern New Mexico. Although the lecture is free, a $5 donation to benefit KSFR would be much appreciated. -- Hosted By: -- Inst. for Analytic Journalism KSFR Radio -- Register Online: -- More information and online registration are available here: https://www.eventbrite.com/event/7204034461/?ref=enivte001invite=NDAzNTcyNS9mcmlhbUByZWRmaXNoLmNvbS8w -- Collect event fees online with Eventbrite http://www.eventbrite.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] TLS encryption [was gmail forums exploded]
On 8/17/13 12:05 PM, Sarbajit Roy wrote: try https: // ecomail DOT at That server does do TLS, and there's AES-256 encryption on the site itself. Looks like he is a likely to be an actual person.. :-) http://muenchen.piratenpartei.de/author/muenchen/ Of course, for U.S. citizens, using an overseas account could mean jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire! Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] TLS encryption [was gmail forums exploded]
All that being said, I do use SSL/TLS for my e-mail client (T-Bird via IMAP) to a regional (SWCP) mail service. This (probably) means that anyone intercepting (sniffing my wireless, tapping my first mile provider, backbone, etc.) will only get medium-high entropy bitstreams. But I don't encrypt my hard drive, nor does, I presume SWCP. I don't insist on encrypted conversations with anyone, so I'm only one tiny step more secure than I would be if I didn't use SSL/TLS with my ISP mail server. I suppose if we all insist on encrypted e-mail as the standard we increase the size of the pile of envelopes with needles in them. It might help some... but this feels a lot like an arms race. - STeve FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] TLS encryption [was gmail forums exploded]
On 8/16/13 9:13 PM, Sarbajit Roy wrote: I switched to an IMAP client (T-Bird) 3 days ago when their latest nonsense started. Speaking of e-mail providers, I've noticed that a some of my providers don't provide TLS encryption. Can anyone suggest one that passes http://www.checktls.com/? The usual suspects are surely all PRISM-equipped by now, so I was thinking of something off the beaten path. ;-) Any reason to believe that SWCP/Cybermesa are not PRISM-equipped? HOw do we (even) know that checktls.com isn't some kind of honeypot, trying to get us to signal our potential riskiness by using it to test our e-mail service? And how do we know that what checktls reports is even accurate? How do we discover whether THEY are trusted/trustable? - STEVE FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] TLS encryption [was gmail forums exploded]
I loved the defense offered in http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/us/nsa-calls-violations-of-privacy-minuscule.html, that 2776 mistakes in a year were nothing to get excited over, they're making 20 million queries a month. I wonder when we were going to find out that number in the normal course of events. -- rec -- On Sat, Aug 17, 2013 at 2:19 PM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote: All that being said, I do use SSL/TLS for my e-mail client (T-Bird via IMAP) to a regional (SWCP) mail service. This (probably) means that anyone intercepting (sniffing my wireless, tapping my first mile provider, backbone, etc.) will only get medium-high entropy bitstreams. But I don't encrypt my hard drive, nor does, I presume SWCP. I don't insist on encrypted conversations with anyone, so I'm only one tiny step more secure than I would be if I didn't use SSL/TLS with my ISP mail server. I suppose if we all insist on encrypted e-mail as the standard we increase the size of the pile of envelopes with needles in them. It might help some... but this feels a lot like an arms race. - STeve ==**== FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/**listinfo/friam_redfish.comhttp://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] TLS encryption [was gmail forums exploded]
On 8/17/13 2:10 PM, Steve Smith wrote: /Of course, for U.S. citizens, using an overseas account could mean jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire!/ Especially those with security clearances working at national scientific laboratories? There should be no reason to go overseas and make appearances suspect, because we all have the right to do this in our personal affairs. Using adequate encryption and processes means that those `making mistakes' at or on behalf of the NSA will be forced to go to the trouble to warrant the relevant ISP to install intercept hardware. I expect it to be as hard as the law says it should be. At the very least there is time and effort involved in that. And if the mail servers are owned the user, then they need to seize the owner's hardware with a proper warrant and/or coerce the owner to hand over the encryption keys. This situation is not at all like the `Police are issued guns but don't misuse them' analogy because a gun that is fired at someone results in an undeniable outcome. In contrast, this is all in the shadows and deniable. The analogy of needle in a haystack has already been used. It seems as if using overtly encrypted e-mail services is like putting your needle in a somewhat difficult to open envelope. It makes it easier to find the needles (because they are now in easily identifiable envelopes) but harder to read (open) them? If everyone exercises their right to use strong encryption, all the way to the storage medium, using open, auditable open source code, this whole issue goes away. It's just that we're not there yet, so they are trying these annoying PRISM technical tricks to interleave taps. If people aren't emphatic about this, we'll slide toward the Clipper chip nonsense and key escrow. Government employees using government systems have to live with that, as do many people working at various sorts of corporations, but random U.S. citizens do not -- at least not yet. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] TLS encryption [was gmail forums exploded]
On 8/17/13 2:32 PM, Steve Smith wrote: HOw do we (even) know that checktls.com isn't some kind of honeypot, trying to get us to signal our potential riskiness by using it to test our e-mail service? You can do it by hand, it's just a convenience. They pretty much show you the (e.g. telnet) commands to use. I just mentioned that URL in the hopes someone would say Mine ISP does! so that I could give them my money instead. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] TLS encryption [was gmail forums exploded]
On 8/17/13 2:37 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote: I loved the defense offered in http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/us/nsa-calls-violations-of-privacy-minuscule.html, that 2776 mistakes in a year were nothing to get excited over, they're making 20 million queries a month. I wonder when we were going to find out that number in the normal course of events. It probably measures something. Like the number of middle managers that they have with a conscience. If as a group they perceive risk as inaction, it could be a small fraction of the actual violations. Someone had the presence of mind to realize that they needed to have some plots on some sort of violation, so that it would seem like they were doing something proactive about an obvious risk when a trouble-making Senator came along, etc. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] TLS encryption [was gmail forums exploded]
Marcus - I understand that I can check the handshakes, transmissions, etc by hand (telnet or a simple program I write myself)... what I'm offering is that I don't know how to tell that checktls.com isn't a honeypot, looking for people who act guilty by trying to secure their communications. Sure it can actually do the tests it claims it is doing, and maybe even be accurate in all cases except maybe one where the nefarious shadowy guys in the background already have your number and the shadowy characters instruct the system to report tighter security than exists, causing the suspect to leave themselves more vulnerable than they thought, etc... yes, these are the fruits of a paranoid mind, but just because you are paranoid, *doesn't* mean they aren't out to get you. MY ISP DOES! and it's regional and I like them (over 15 years now) and I trust them (right up to the point when they get a National Security Letter instructing them to quietly and without telling anyone including their lawyer do exactly what they are told on pain of secret charges of treason, etc.). I also have no reason to believe that they keep my e-mail encrypted... and from what I'm hearing from lavabit, if they did, THEY TOO would be facing what lavabit is? - Steve On 8/17/13 2:32 PM, Steve Smith wrote: HOw do we (even) know that checktls.com isn't some kind of honeypot, trying to get us to signal our potential riskiness by using it to test our e-mail service? You can do it by hand, it's just a convenience. They pretty much show you the (e.g. telnet) commands to use. I just mentioned that URL in the hopes someone would say Mine ISP does! so that I could give them my money instead. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] outsider everything
On 08/16/2013 04:00 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote: I'd say stability and trustworthiness are different things. Stability arises almost necessarily because there are different individuals competing for power within the organization. [...] Once a structure like this becomes stable, the the organization can become immune from the truth. No one in the lower ranks has an incentive any more to rock the boat -- everything becomes about internal political signaling.There is no reason to be trustworthy in any universal sense because the incentives for survival within the organization follow a different set of rules. I'm not convinced of the difference between stability and trustworthiness. I suppose it depends on what one means by trust. I trust people like Penrose to behave in Penrosian ways. And I trust the Washington Post to behave in Wapovian ways. That's what I mean by trust. The point being that if I hear something from, say Rush Limbaugh, I should be able to make a fast estimation of that thing. I expect it to be Limbaugh-like. So, to me, trust is less about some universal Truth according to a grand unified theory of the universe. It's more about model-ability. In the case of the NSA, a concern is what manager has any incentive to enforce their supposed no-US-persons rules? If, as a set of upper level managers, they all come to believe the only important thing is showing how signals intelligence can catch violent Islamic extremists, and that will justify a steadily growing budget, then they just need to design a plausible-but-weak-self-enforcement mechanism that have no real teeth. I agree to some extent. But you're ignoring the fact that these people often do have lives outside their work. And those lives often interfere, cognitively, with their more robot-like optimization methods within their work. Of course, as more and more of us _linearize_ and self-select our interactions via tools like facebook, or on-line dating, etc., then those less linear parts of their lives will have less chance to interfere. -- ⇒⇐ glen e. p. ropella I have gazed beyond today FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] TLS encryption [was gmail forums exploded]
On 8/17/13 3:35 PM, Steve Smith wrote: I understand that I can check the handshakes, transmissions, etc by hand (telnet or a simple program I write myself)... what I'm offering is that I don't know how to tell that checktls.com isn't a honeypot, looking for people who act guilty by trying to secure their communications. Public advocacy for having ubiquitous secure transfers is a stronger signal for them to contemplate. yes, these are the fruits of a paranoid mind, but just because you are paranoid, *doesn't* mean they aren't out to get you. Speaking of paranoia, here's a little Thunderbird add-in that aims to check that all of the e-mail hops were secure. It's a little buggy, but a nice idea (double check its work if it gives you a happy face). https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/paranoia/ Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] outsider everything
On 8/17/13 3:47 PM, glen wrote: But you're ignoring the fact that these people often do have lives outside their work. And those lives often interfere, cognitively, with their more robot-like optimization methods within their work. For some reason I remember this random instant of my life. Years ago, over a busy weekend, I got an e-mail from a collaborator as a deadline approached. The individual indicated that they were stepping away to stop by church. It wasn't a terribly important project, at least for me. So, instead of reviewing my heuristics for estimating the priorities of my collaborators, I reflected on how social systems grow up around the frailties of the community and concluded (something like) that social systems can just as well reinforce the robot-like optimization methods as they stigmatize them. Here's a fun document from 1955. The NSA conduct guide! http://cryptome.org/2013/07/nsa-conduct-guide-1955.pdf Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] TLS encryption [was gmail forums exploded]
Marcus Public advocacy for having ubiquitous secure transfers is a stronger signal for them to contemplate. Agreed. yes, these are the fruits of a paranoid mind, but just because you are paranoid, *doesn't* mean they aren't out to get you. Speaking of paranoia, here's a little Thunderbird add-in that aims to check that all of the e-mail hops were secure. It's a little buggy, but a nice idea (double check its work if it gives you a happy face). I get happy faces over the strangest things... and in fact, I like highwire work without checking the net before I go up... it just feels like bad juju. It is merely important (to me) to know that I *can* check the net if I choose to... that it is checkable and I am competent to do so and nobody gets too wIerded out if I do. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/thunderbird/addon/paranoia/ - Steve FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] outsider everything
Glen - I'd say stability and trustworthiness are different things. Stability arises almost necessarily because there are different individuals competing for power within the organization. [...] Once a structure like this becomes stable, the the organization can become immune from the truth. No one in the lower ranks has an incentive any more to rock the boat -- everything becomes about internal political signaling.There is no reason to be trustworthy in any universal sense because the incentives for survival within the organization follow a different set of rules. I'm not convinced of the difference between stability and trustworthiness. I suppose it depends on what one means by trust. I trust people like Penrose to behave in Penrosian ways. And I trust the Washington Post to behave in Wapovian ways. That's what I mean by trust. The point being that if I hear something from, say Rush Limbaugh, I should be able to make a fast estimation of that thing. I expect it to be Limbaugh-like. So, to me, trust is less about some universal Truth according to a grand unified theory of the universe. It's more about model-ability. My strong-libertarian personality (one of several seen here) agrees with this in the extreme. I don't give a flying flip what someone elses' propensities and proclivities are, as long as I have a good model of them, even if my model is that they are total whack-jobs (high variance in their behaviour). However, my humanist personality (yet another, which seems to be somewhat at odds with the libertarian one) wants to narrow the model of human behaviour down to include a measure of empathic response. I would say I trust people more who I believe to have an empathic response to me, and in general I believe that this is a resonant phenomena, that those whom I am empathetic with, are also more empathetic with me, etc. So a strong empathetic bond with someone leads me to trust them in a different way than I trust Rush Limbaugh (or Roger Penrose). My wife, my children, even Steve Guerin (when we are drinking together anyway). - Steve FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] outsider everything
On 8/17/13 4:23 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote: Here's a fun document from 1955. The NSA conduct guide! http://cryptome.org/2013/07/nsa-conduct-guide-1955.pdf Thanks for the link... I read through it and found it to be a great piece of nostalgia every bit as interesting as episodes of Mad Men or a Formica and Chrome kitchen table. It harkens to a time of innocence that I do miss... lots of fairly plain speaking and appeal to pride and honor as much as threats of dire personal consequence. While my security briefings during 30 year spanning the new millenium had the same underlying basis, there was a much less innocent tone which equally saddened and offended me. The passage about keeping a personal diary struck me. Today, I believe I could fairly effectively keep a personal diary in a very effectively encrypted form. On one hand, the chances of the information contained being discovered by a bad guy is incredibly low and on the other, so is being discovered in breaking this rule (including sensitive info in my diary) similarly low. It seems that the idea of encrypting (mirror writing ala Da Vinci?) one's personal notes is not a new one. - Steve FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] outsider everything
On 8/17/13 5:40 PM, Steve Smith wrote: I would say I trust people more who I believe to have an empathic response to me, and in general I believe that this is a resonant phenomena, that those whom I am empathetic with, are also more empathetic with me, etc. A third definition of trust is that, whenever something seems high variance for the model of the individual, that it can explained directly or indirectly by the trusted person. That there will be an interesting self-consistent explanation or argument that is somehow more penetrating for a new situation that merely being consistent with a previous situation. That person's values may change or evolve -- they are not superficially consistent -- but you can be sure their function applied to those values will be an informative or even novel result. One can trust that their time is not being wasted. Marcus FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] outsider everything
Marcus... -- they are not superficially consistent -- but you can be sure their function applied to those values will be an informative or even novel result. One can trust that their time is not being wasted. One should not trust the last part... at least not when conversing with me FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] outsider everything
On 8/17/13 6:03 PM, Steve Smith wrote: There was a clause about having to report any ongoing intimate relations with foreign nationals (especially from sensitive countries which I seem to remember *any* country which was known to have nuclear capability, and a longer list of countries known to be inimical to the US). As an exercise, I thought I'd categorize them. I found two lists (not obvious where to get the authoritative DOE list) http://www.wipp.energy.gov/proc/pdf/sensitivefnc.pdf (dated 2003) http://bss.fnal.gov/travel/SensitiveCountriesList.pdf(dated 2007, tagged *) Augment the Purchasing power parity GDP info / per capital, I collect the following. Some highlights.. 1) GDP of India exceeds Russia 2) South Korea GDP is within a factor of 2 of Russia 3) UAE per captial is a dead-heat with the United States 4) Living large in Macau, right up there with Luxembourg 5) Dangerous places like Yemen, North Korea, and Afghanistan are poor absolutely and individually. 6) India and China have the most inequity, but the U.S. would be in third in this list. Macau, curiously, has the least -- ratio very close to Luxembourg again. Cuba's ratio of GDP to per capita is low too. South Africa (*) $608e9 / $11750 North Africa Algeria $207e9 / $5693 Libya $66e9/$10129 Sudan $85e9 / $2544 Egypt (*) $559e9 / $6652 Middle East Syria $107e9/$5100 Israel $248e9 / $32312 Iran $999e9 / $13127 Iraq $150e9 / $4272 Jordan (*) $36e9 / $5899 Saudi Arabia (*) $906e9 / $31275 United Arab Emirates (*) $271e9 / $49011 (pop 8e6) Yemen (*) $58e9 / $2249 (pop 23e6) Soviet, et. al.: Russia, $3380e9, $23549 Ukraine, $344e9, $7598 Kazakhstan, $231e9, $13892 Belarus, $146e9, $15633 Uzbekistan, $103e9, $3536 Azerbaijan, $97e9, $10568 Turkmenistan / Turkmen, $43e9, $7846 Georgia / Georgian, $26e9, $5929 Armenia, $19e9, $5838 Tajikistan / Tajik (Persian), $16e9, $2066 Kyrgyzstan / Kyrgyz (Russian), $13e9, $1070 Moldova / Romanian, $12e9, $3415 Cuba, $121e9 / $10200 China, et. al.: China $12405e9 / $9161 Taiwan $903e9 / $38749 Hong Kong (*) $243e9 / $34049 Macau (*) $47e9 / $82400 India $4700e9 / $3851 Afghanistan (*) $33e9 / $1053 Pakistan $514e9 / $2960 Korea North $40e9 / $1800 South (*) $1687e9 / $33580 Indonesia (*) $1314e9 / $5302 Malaysia (*) $521e9 / $17675 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
Re: [FRIAM] outsider everything
On 8/17/13 8:19 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote: 6) India and China have the most inequity, but the U.S. would be in third in this list. Macau, curiously, has the least -- ratio very close to Luxembourg again. Correction: scratch the word inequity here, that's the wrong term! (Well from a conservative's point of view it might be called that.) For inequality, the GINI numbers for these are as below (from Wikipedia except where noted): Luxembourg 27.2 Cuba 38.0 Macau 52.0 http://www.levin.com.hk/fileupload/knowledge/Macro-Econ-Study-in-Macau-June-08.pdf India 33.9 China 47.4 United States 47.7 Yemen 37.7 https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2172.html Afghanistan 27.8 North Korea 31 For comparison, Santa Fe county (FIPS=35049) had a GINI in 2000 of 46 and Los Alamos (FIPS 35028) had one of 33, which was near the lowest in the country. Which makes sense, because Los Alamos is, shall we say, an `orderly' company town. Manhattan (FIPS 36061) was 58.5 in 2000. https://geodacenter.asu.edu/%5Btermalias-raw%5D/household-incom-0 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
