Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[Prof David West]

Nick,

*"I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating 
what could our not appear on FRIAM."*

A "government A-hole" is already there, albeit indirectly. All kinds of laws 
against myriad different types of post. Plus, via tech puppets, vast swaths of 
'speech' / 'postings' are prohibited from appearing, even in "private" fora 
such as FRIAM. And when rule 230 is essentially eliminated, it will get much 
worse. Not to mention the excess prohibition of any type of "hurtful" speech 
that will be coming in the months ahead — all prompted by government A-holes 
legislating.

But the biggest inhibition on what can or cannot appear on FRIAM arises from 
the majority culture and the self-censorship of those sensitive to it.

davew


On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 5:40 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> Right, Marcus.  That's where I ended up, too.  While I need to IMAGINE that 
> you can understand me, in order to write some of what I write, the fact that 
> you don't, in the short run, doesn't matter.  The illusion of you attentively 
> listening has broken many a writer's block.  I would hate it if some Good 
> Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could our not appear on 
> FRIAM. 

>  

> You are in the unenviable position of agreeing with me. (};-\)

>  

> However, I do wonder what some of those people would say if we were better at 
> engaging them.

>  

> Nick

>  

> Nick Thompson

> thompnicks...@gmail.com

> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

>  


> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 4:03 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

>  

> I'm not sure who you are accusing of what, and it doesn't matter.   Fwiw, I 
> suppose I follow  a few underlying principles by default, unless I am being 
> paid or whatnot:

>  

> 1) If someone is motivated to make a point or understand some topic, as there 
> was some indication in some cases, then if some muttering is alien to them, 
> they'll bother to puzzle it out or ask without being petulant about it.

>  

> 2) The burden is not on the speaker/sharer unless the speaker especially 
> cares that the topic be understood and perhaps acted upon.  Say, if the 
> speaker is engaging in political advocacy, or defending some claim where they 
> have some skin in the game.  

>  

> 3) Electrons are cheap to move around and attention can be modulated.

>  

> Marcus

>  

> -Original Message-

> From: Friam  On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com

> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:03 AM

> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 

> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

>  

> Well, generally that is the paradox.  But the narcissism I am talking about 
> is INTRA group narcissism  -- writing a post that one knows damn well only 2 
> members of the group will understand.   We are a sufficiently broad group 
> that I imagine that if we developed a language understood by most of us, it 
> would also be understood by a lot of other people. 

>  

> But there is value to narcissism that might be lost if we tried to 
> standardize.  That you all understand me is an illusion that helps me to 
> write, and when I write, thoughts happen that I did not plan on happening.  
> Even if NONE of you understood, that would be a gain for me.  I think many of 
> us write to the list in this delusional way, and I can't claim that that's 
> altogether a Bad Thing.

>  

> Nick

>  

> Nick Thompson

> thompnicks...@gmail.com

> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

>  

> -Original Message-

> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ???

> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 12:46 PM

> To: friam@redfish.com

> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

>  

> IDK, man. This contribution rings a bit hollow. Jargon, insider jokes and 
> words, etc. all serve group cohesion. Coming from Nick, who sporadically 
> talks of FriAM as important *as a group*, including attempts to formulate 
> some threads as coherent presentable things, it seems good, 
> generalized/popularized, communication is antithetic.

>  

> But it *does* bode well for treating forum posts as public essays rather than 
> intra-group chatting ... which I've argued is the case. A flaw in my 
> argument, that those who disagree with me have yet to point out, is that 
> despite being publicly available on Nabble, it's not really a public forum. 
> It's not widely read. We *do* use obComplexity jargon just to titillate each 
> other. Etc. Perhaps the biggest obstacle to viewing these posts as public 
> essays is that we don't have a standard set of rules (like Frank's) posts are 
> expected to follow.

>  

> So, the classical mathetists among us will argue that you can't have your 
> cake and eat it. Either we're a group of insiders, a tribe, or this is a 
> publication medium which should have some associated rules. Perhaps that's 
> the paradox Nick's

[FRIAM] and you thought your home office was messy!

[uǝlƃ ↙↙↙]

Кіберполіція викрила транснаціональне угруповання хакерів у розповсюдженні 
вірусу «EMOTET>>
(Cyberpolice has exposed a transnational group of hackers in the spread of the 
virus -- google translate)

https://youtu.be/_BLOmClsSpc

Europol release, with a fancy graphic!
https://www.europol.europa.eu/newsroom/news/world%E2%80%99s-most-dangerous-malware-emotet-disrupted-through-global-action

-- 
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] and you thought your home office was messy!

[jon zingale]

Wow. That could easily be a gangster techno music video. Counting Benjamins,
counting Hryvnia, counting hard drives (probably with my bank info on it)
and credit cards. Was that a thermometer on the machine? The comment section
was nearly as good.

"материнська плата. Їй щонаменше 20 років Це точно кібергрупа а не музей?"

"Артисты вам бы в театре играть!а не налоги людские
прожиратьбездельники"

So good, visually stunning, two thumbs up.



--
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Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[Marcus Daniels]

Ok, I’ll take the other side.  There’s a way to say almost anything with 
indirection.   Some degree of censorship selects for people who can do that.   
(Not that I agree that this kind of legislation is really like to occur.)

From: Friam  On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 7:54 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

I should have added, in the previous post, that the odd thing is that I know 
from the earlier exchanges that you already know this, and take some pride in 
following it.


On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:37 AM, David Eric Smith 
mailto:desm...@santafe.edu>> wrote:

An even bigger inhibition comes if how you are doing matters to me, and I would 
rather contribute to helping that than to dragging it down.


On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:29 AM, Prof David West 
mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:

Nick,

"I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating 
what could our not appear on FRIAM."

A "government A-hole" is already there, albeit indirectly. All kinds of laws 
against myriad different types of post. Plus, via tech puppets, vast swaths of 
'speech' / 'postings' are prohibited from appearing, even in "private" fora 
such as FRIAM. And when rule 230 is essentially eliminated, it will get much 
worse. Not to mention the excess prohibition of any type of "hurtful" speech 
that will be coming in the months ahead — all prompted by government A-holes 
legislating.

But the biggest inhibition on what can or cannot appear on FRIAM arises from 
the majority culture and the self-censorship of those sensitive to it.

davew


On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 5:40 PM, 
thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
Right, Marcus.  That's where I ended up, too.  While I need to IMAGINE that you 
can understand me, in order to write some of what I write, the fact that you 
don't, in the short run, doesn't matter.  The illusion of you attentively 
listening has broken many a writer's block.  I would hate it if some Good 
Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could our not appear on 
FRIAM.

You are in the unenviable position of agreeing with me. (};-\)

However, I do wonder what some of those people would say if we were better at 
engaging them.

Nick

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 4:03 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms


I'm not sure who you are accusing of what, and it doesn't matter.   Fwiw, I 
suppose I follow  a few underlying principles by default, unless I am being 
paid or whatnot:

1) If someone is motivated to make a point or understand some topic, as there 
was some indication in some cases, then if some muttering is alien to them, 
they'll bother to puzzle it out or ask without being petulant about it.

2) The burden is not on the speaker/sharer unless the speaker especially cares 
that the topic be understood and perhaps acted upon.  Say, if the speaker is 
engaging in political advocacy, or defending some claim where they have some 
skin in the game.

3) Electrons are cheap to move around and attention can be modulated.

Marcus

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:03 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

Well, generally that is the paradox.  But the narcissism I am talking about is 
INTRA group narcissism  -- writing a post that one knows damn well only 2 
members of the group will understand.   We are a sufficiently broad group that 
I imagine that if we developed a language understood by most of us, it would 
also be understood by a lot of other people.

But there is value to narcissism that might be lost if we tried to standardize. 
 That you all understand me is an illusion that helps me to write, and when I 
write, thoughts happen that I did not plan on happening.  Even if NONE of you 
understood, that would be a gain for me.  I think many of us write to the list 
in this delusional way, and I can't claim that that's altogether a Bad Thing.

Nick

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[thompnickson2]

Hi, Eric, 

 

Can you say a bit more?  I didn’t follow.  If it’s obvious, somebody could just 
take pity on me and write me off line. 

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 9:54 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

 

I should have added, in the previous post, that the odd thing is that I know 
from the earlier exchanges that you already know this, and take some pride in 
following it.





On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:37 AM, David Eric Smith mailto:desm...@santafe.edu> > wrote:

 

An even bigger inhibition comes if how you are doing matters to me, and I would 
rather contribute to helping that than to dragging it down.





On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:29 AM, Prof David West mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm> > wrote:

 

Nick,

 

"I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating 
what could our not appear on FRIAM."

 

A "government A-hole" is already there, albeit indirectly. All kinds of laws 
against myriad different types of post. Plus, via tech puppets, vast swaths of 
'speech' / 'postings' are prohibited from appearing, even in "private" fora 
such as FRIAM. And when rule 230 is essentially eliminated, it will get much 
worse. Not to mention the excess prohibition of any type of "hurtful" speech 
that will be coming in the months ahead — all prompted by government A-holes 
legislating.

 

But the biggest inhibition on what can or cannot appear on FRIAM arises from 
the majority culture and the self-censorship of those sensitive to it.

 

davew

 

 

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 5:40 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
  wrote:

Right, Marcus.  That's where I ended up, too.  While I need to IMAGINE that you 
can understand me, in order to write some of what I write, the fact that you 
don't, in the short run, doesn't matter.  The illusion of you attentively 
listening has broken many a writer's block.  I would hate it if some Good 
Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could our not appear on 
FRIAM. 

 

You are in the unenviable position of agreeing with me. (};-\)

 

However, I do wonder what some of those people would say if we were better at 
engaging them.

 

Nick

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 

 

 

-Original Message-

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 4:03 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

 

 

I'm not sure who you are accusing of what, and it doesn't matter.   Fwiw, I 
suppose I follow  a few underlying principles by default, unless I am being 
paid or whatnot:

 

1) If someone is motivated to make a point or understand some topic, as there 
was some indication in some cases, then if some muttering is alien to them, 
they'll bother to puzzle it out or ask without being petulant about it.

 

2) The burden is not on the speaker/sharer unless the speaker especially cares 
that the topic be understood and perhaps acted upon.  Say, if the speaker is 
engaging in political advocacy, or defending some claim where they have some 
skin in the game.  

 

3) Electrons are cheap to move around and attention can be modulated.

 

Marcus

 

-Original Message-

From: Friam <  friam-boun...@redfish.com> On 
Behalf Of   thompnicks...@gmail.com

Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:03 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < 
 friam@redfish.com>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

 

Well, generally that is the paradox.  But the narcissism I am talking about is 
INTRA group narcissism  -- writing a post that one knows damn well only 2 
members of the group will understand.   We are a sufficiently broad group that 
I imagine that if we developed a language understood by most of us, it would 
also be understood by a lot of other people. 

 

But there is value to narcissism that might be lost if we tried to standardize. 
 That you all understand me is an illusion that helps me to write, and when I 
write, thoughts happen that I did not plan on happening.  Even if NONE of you 
understood, that would be a gain for me.  I think many of us write to the list 
in this delusional way, and I can't claim that that's altogether a Bad Thing.

 

Nick

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gm

Re: [FRIAM] Message to the non-posting 95%

[thompnickson2]

"There followed an eerie silence.  Scientist strained at their earphones to
ear, examined their screens for any anomalous squiggle.  Finally, the
director sighed, 'I guess there is no life in outer space.'"

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

 
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: thompnicks...@gmail.com  
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 8:59 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Message to the non-posting 95%

 

Dear non-bloviators,

 

Some of us bloviators have suddenly woken to the realization that we have no
idea what you are thinking or what topics require discussion in a forum
vaguely related to complexity.  I for one, am curious.  Hallooo!
Anybody out there?

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

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Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[thompnickson2]

Marcus, 

 

The position you take seems to be radical individualism, i.e., that there is a 
me that exists and can be revealed by stripping away the constraints of any 
social contact.  The contrasting view is that “me” is inevitably social, and 
that it is revealed only by social interaction.  So the stable me, the naked 
me, is actually a fiction, or at most, a statistical average.  

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 10:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

 

Ok, I’ll take the other side.  There’s a way to say almost anything with 
indirection.   Some degree of censorship selects for people who can do that.   
(Not that I agree that this kind of legislation is really like to occur.)

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 7:54 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

 

I should have added, in the previous post, that the odd thing is that I know 
from the earlier exchanges that you already know this, and take some pride in 
following it.

 

On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:37 AM, David Eric Smith mailto:desm...@santafe.edu> > wrote:

 

An even bigger inhibition comes if how you are doing matters to me, and I would 
rather contribute to helping that than to dragging it down.

 

On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:29 AM, Prof David West mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm> > wrote:

 

Nick,

 

"I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating 
what could our not appear on FRIAM."

 

A "government A-hole" is already there, albeit indirectly. All kinds of laws 
against myriad different types of post. Plus, via tech puppets, vast swaths of 
'speech' / 'postings' are prohibited from appearing, even in "private" fora 
such as FRIAM. And when rule 230 is essentially eliminated, it will get much 
worse. Not to mention the excess prohibition of any type of "hurtful" speech 
that will be coming in the months ahead — all prompted by government A-holes 
legislating.

 

But the biggest inhibition on what can or cannot appear on FRIAM arises from 
the majority culture and the self-censorship of those sensitive to it.

 

davew

 

 

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 5:40 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
  wrote:

Right, Marcus.  That's where I ended up, too.  While I need to IMAGINE that you 
can understand me, in order to write some of what I write, the fact that you 
don't, in the short run, doesn't matter.  The illusion of you attentively 
listening has broken many a writer's block.  I would hate it if some Good 
Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could our not appear on 
FRIAM. 

 

You are in the unenviable position of agreeing with me. (};-\)

 

However, I do wonder what some of those people would say if we were better at 
engaging them.

 

Nick

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 

 

 

-Original Message-

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 4:03 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

 

 

I'm not sure who you are accusing of what, and it doesn't matter.   Fwiw, I 
suppose I follow  a few underlying principles by default, unless I am being 
paid or whatnot:

 

1) If someone is motivated to make a point or understand some topic, as there 
was some indication in some cases, then if some muttering is alien to them, 
they'll bother to puzzle it out or ask without being petulant about it.

 

2) The burden is not on the speaker/sharer unless the speaker especially cares 
that the topic be understood and perhaps acted upon.  Say, if the speaker is 
engaging in political advocacy, or defending some claim where they have some 
skin in the game.  

 

3) Electrons are cheap to move around and attention can be modulated.

 

Marcus

 

-Original Message-

From: Friam <  friam-boun...@redfish.com> On 
Behalf Of   thompnicks...@gmail.com

Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:03 AM

To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < 
 friam@redfish.com>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

 

Well, generally that is the paradox.  But the narcissism I am talking about is 
INTRA group narcissism  -- writing a post t

Re: [FRIAM] Message to the non-posting 95%

[Gary Schiltz]

Nick says: “There followed an eerie silence.  Scientist strained at their
earphones to ear, examined their screens for any anomalous squiggle.
Finally, the director sighed, ‘I guess there is no life in outer space.’”

That sounds like an interesting beginning or ending to a scifi novel. Is
it, or did you just paraphrase something? Regardless, I'd like to read it.

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 12:05 PM  wrote:

> “There followed an eerie silence.  Scientist strained at their earphones
> to ear, examined their screens for any anomalous squiggle.  Finally, the
> director sighed, ‘I guess there is no life in outer space.’”
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 26, 2021 8:59 PM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Message to the non-posting 95%
>
>
>
> Dear non-bloviators,
>
>
>
> Some of us bloviators have suddenly woken to the realization that we have
> no idea what you are thinking or what topics require discussion in a forum
> vaguely related to complexity.  I for one, am curious.  Hallooo!
> Anybody out there?
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
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> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
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> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
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[FRIAM] coding versus music

[Prof David West]

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. 
Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, 
"computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and 
has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase 
the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific 
research reported on. I *_want_* the reports to be accurate representation of 
the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of 
"computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west-  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[thompnickson2]

This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about
life that we citizens need to know.   I imagine coding to be like trying to
write an instruction to a person such that that person always does what you
want them to do.  So, it is an act of communication in which the
communicatee is always right, no matter how idiotic may be it's response.
No boss ever says to a coder, "Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the
machine didn't understand you."  

 

Am I right about any of that?

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] coding versus music

 

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code.
Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus,
"computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

 

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and
has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

 

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to
increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

 

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific
research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of
the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of
"computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge
domain.

 

dave west

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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Prof David West]

Nick,

I am no longer a good programmer/coder, although once ...  Really good coders 
like Glen, Marcus, Jon ... on the list, will probably disagree with me; but:

Coding/programming is not communication — if restricted to coder > machine 
-> machine action. The machine is nothing more than the embodiment of a 
mathematical abstraction and coding is analogous to rearranging the symbols in 
a mathematical expression, such that, when resolved, the expression yields 
different results.

No boss says what you quoted, but few programmers have not had the experience 
of "the damn machine keeps doing what I told it, instead of what I want."

But — a program has two audiences: the machine (no communication here) and 
other programmers (tons of miscommunication here). This is what the reference 
from Eric Smith talks about. There is an entire, usually ignored, paradigm in 
computer science called "literate programming"  — the most prominent advocate, 
Donald Knuth.

If one were skilled at literate programming, one would be communicating to 
another programmer (or herself at a later point in time) all the knowledge and 
meaning necessary for the latter to understand, modify, enhance, or correct the 
program as needs be. *_If possible_* this would be a communication skill worth 
developing — might lead to more precise and accurate communication outside the 
world of the computer.

*"If possible,"* is key. Many, starting with Peter Naur, would argue that this 
kind of programmer-to=programmer communication is impossible because the 
medium, the code plus any written documentation, is too impoverished to 
communicate what needs to be communicated. In Naur's world, programming is 
joint theory building — a theory of "an affair in the world and how the program 
(addresses) it." Code and documentation represent maybe a tenth of that theory, 
the remainder being in the heads of those who developed it.

davew


On Wed, Jan 27, 2021, at 10:56 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about life 
> that we citizens need to know.   I imagine coding to be like trying to write 
> an instruction to a person such that that person always does what you want 
> them to do.  So, it is an act of communication in which the communicatee is 
> always right, no matter how idiotic may be it’s response.  No boss ever says 
> to a coder, “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the machine didn’t 
> understand you.” 

>  

> Am I right about any of that?

>  

> Nick Thompson

> thompnicks...@gmail.com

> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

>  

> 

> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] coding versus music
> 

>  

> For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. 
> Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, 
> "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

>  

> A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and 
> has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

>  

> An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase 
> the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

>  

> I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific 
> research reported on. I *_want_* the reports to be accurate representation of 
> the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of 
> "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge 
> domain.

>  

> dave west

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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[jon zingale]

Yeah, that book is a classic and written in Lisp!



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Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[Marcus Daniels]

I guess I can see why you’d say that.   However, I’d argue there is still 
social behavior, even honesty and trust, in a world where information is 
exchanged in a very cautious way.In the world that I guess Dave is afraid 
of, people that mouth off too have bad outcomes.   Maybe that policing is not 
so bad?

From: Friam  On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 9:10 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

Marcus,

The position you take seems to be radical individualism, i.e., that there is a 
me that exists and can be revealed by stripping away the constraints of any 
social contact.  The contrasting view is that “me” is inevitably social, and 
that it is revealed only by social interaction.  So the stable me, the naked 
me, is actually a fiction, or at most, a statistical average.

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 10:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

Ok, I’ll take the other side.  There’s a way to say almost anything with 
indirection.   Some degree of censorship selects for people who can do that.   
(Not that I agree that this kind of legislation is really like to occur.)

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 7:54 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

I should have added, in the previous post, that the odd thing is that I know 
from the earlier exchanges that you already know this, and take some pride in 
following it.

On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:37 AM, David Eric Smith 
mailto:desm...@santafe.edu>> wrote:

An even bigger inhibition comes if how you are doing matters to me, and I would 
rather contribute to helping that than to dragging it down.

On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:29 AM, Prof David West 
mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:

Nick,

"I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating 
what could our not appear on FRIAM."

A "government A-hole" is already there, albeit indirectly. All kinds of laws 
against myriad different types of post. Plus, via tech puppets, vast swaths of 
'speech' / 'postings' are prohibited from appearing, even in "private" fora 
such as FRIAM. And when rule 230 is essentially eliminated, it will get much 
worse. Not to mention the excess prohibition of any type of "hurtful" speech 
that will be coming in the months ahead — all prompted by government A-holes 
legislating.

But the biggest inhibition on what can or cannot appear on FRIAM arises from 
the majority culture and the self-censorship of those sensitive to it.

davew


On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 5:40 PM, 
thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
Right, Marcus.  That's where I ended up, too.  While I need to IMAGINE that you 
can understand me, in order to write some of what I write, the fact that you 
don't, in the short run, doesn't matter.  The illusion of you attentively 
listening has broken many a writer's block.  I would hate it if some Good 
Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could our not appear on 
FRIAM.

You are in the unenviable position of agreeing with me. (};-\)

However, I do wonder what some of those people would say if we were better at 
engaging them.

Nick

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 4:03 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms


I'm not sure who you are accusing of what, and it doesn't matter.   Fwiw, I 
suppose I follow  a few underlying principles by default, unless I am being 
paid or whatnot:

1) If someone is motivated to make a point or understand some topic, as there 
was some indication in some cases, then if some muttering is alien to them, 
they'll bother to puzzle it out or ask without being petulant about it.

2) The burden is not on the speaker/sharer unless the speaker especially cares 
that the topic be understood and perhaps acted upon.  Say, if the speaker is 
engaging in political advocacy, or defending some claim where they have some 
skin in the game.

3) Electrons are cheap to move around and attention can be modulated.

Marcus

-Original Message-
From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 

Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Steve Smith]

I am no longer an *effective* coder in the same sense Dave describes.  
But that doesn't mean I can't read and write code in a number of
languages and idioms.  But it does mean that nobody should pay me for
that work except insomuch as it is incidental to what I'm *really* doing
for their filthy lucre.   It is very handy that I *can* read/write code
across  a wide spectrum of languages/idioms, but far from acutely
useful...  If I had to make a living doing it, I might be able to scrape
enough rust off to be useful with it in a few restricted contexts, and
probably paid out at roughly minimum wage, suggesting I would only take
that kind of work in lieu of pumping gas (nobody outside of NJ/OR/NZ)
actually pumps gas for a living anymore?!  I could probably do better
cutting firewood or as a handyman or shade-tree mechanic.  And in the
latter two cases, my main value would be triage/addressing of trivial
problems followed by prescribing one kind of specialist or another for
the actual skilled labor implied in many cases.  

I think that learning coding skills is something valuable to add to
one's toolbox, not unlike learning how to weld/solder/braze (minimally)
or do rough carpentry or learn the basics of fasteners and sealers
(glue, nails, screws, caulk, varnish, paint, oil, etc.)  

The open question here is perhaps how well it helps one learn to
communicate with humans (thus co-).   I think it expands one's
metaphorical domains to work with, but it is more universally useful to
describe a linear set of logical instructions into something more
familiar like a Recipe or some colloquialism like "rinse... repeat" or
navigational instructions (how to get here from there) or assemble
furniture (open the box, inspect the contents, consider the final
configuration, skim the directions for unexpected dependencies, execute
step 1, iterate through numbered steps to final, VIOLA bookcase!)

I find that *many* capable coders are NOT particularly capable
communicators.   Among other things, their empathy is often stunted,
possibly by being too focused on *rigor* vs *clarity* in the sense of
GEPR/NST's discussion upthread.  

On the other hand, following Glen's conception of "self-programming" I
think the Mr. Myagi/Karate Kid example is a good one.   We learn a set
of actions, independent of understanding final purpose, ultimately
developing a set of universal skills which are equally good for waxing a
car or brushing aside an opponent's strike.   I don't know that Myagi
nor the KK were coders by the definition here...   but in a fairly
strong sense, that was what was going on.   Similarly, a lot of
conventional rote learning is like that  the way we learn our
times-tables, or diagram sentences,  study for an anatomy or biology exam.

My $.02 (inflation adjusted)

- Steve

On 1/27/21 11:45 AM, Prof David West wrote:
> Nick,
>
> I am no longer a good programmer/coder, although once ...  Really good
> coders like Glen, Marcus, Jon ... on the list, will probably disagree
> with me; but:
>
> Coding/programming is not communication — if restricted to coder >
> machine -> machine action. The machine is nothing more than the
> embodiment of a mathematical abstraction and coding is analogous to
> rearranging the symbols in a mathematical expression, such that, when
> resolved, the expression yields different results.
>
> No boss says what you quoted, but few programmers have not had the
> experience of "the damn machine keeps doing what I told it, instead of
> what I want."
>
> But — a program has two audiences: the machine (no communication here)
> and other programmers (tons of miscommunication here). This is what
> the reference from Eric Smith talks about. There is an entire, usually
> ignored, paradigm in computer science called "literate programming"  —
> the most prominent advocate, Donald Knuth.
>
> If one were skilled at literate programming, one would be
> communicating to another programmer (or herself at a later point in
> time) all the knowledge and meaning necessary for the latter to
> understand, modify, enhance, or correct the program as needs be. *_If
> possible_* this would be a communication skill worth developing —
> might lead to more precise and accurate communication outside the
> world of the computer.
>
> *"If possible,"* is key. Many, starting with Peter Naur, would argue
> that this kind of programmer-to=programmer communication is impossible
> because the medium, the code plus any written documentation, is too
> impoverished to communicate what needs to be communicated. In Naur's
> world, programming is joint theory building — a theory of "an affair
> in the world and how the program (addresses) it." Code and
> documentation represent maybe a tenth of that theory, the remainder
> being in the heads of those who developed it.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021, at 10:56 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com
>  wrote:
>>
>> This flies in the face of my belief that you 

Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[uǝlƃ ↙↙↙]

The particular thing Dave cited  
follows nicely with our discussion of forcing a *format* for posts. If it's 
eliminated or changed such that the hosts of redfish.com become responsible for 
the posts, then that changes the game quite a bit.

From my interpretation of EricS' part, it's not a bad thing to rely on implicit 
structure in judging content. So removing 230 would make redfish.com more like 
a traditional medium that has to take some responsibility for posts. And even 
strict moderation can be justified, if only based on principles of kindness and 
people as ends in themselves.

From my interpretation of Dave's part, if only deeply resourced agents can 
*afford* to publish controversial things, then that feeds the oligarchy and 
risks all the authoritarian circumstances we're afraid of. Even with 230, there 
are libel laws, revenge porn laws, hate speech laws, etc. that restrict what we 
can post. But without 230, it would be fairly easy for someone who doesn't like 
one of us oft-posting blowhards to get redfish.com shut down.

I'm not at all concerned with what happens to the individual sh¡tposter. I *am* 
concerned what happens to the infrastructure on which the sh¡tposter posts. 
It's an important debate crossing lots of domains and with both practical and 
ideal issues. It's fine if we don't want to have the debate. But it's myopic to 
cartoon it away.

On 1/27/21 10:57 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I guess I can see why you’d say that.   However, I’d argue there is still 
> social behavior, even honesty and trust, in a world where information is 
> exchanged in a very cautious way.    In the world that I guess Dave is afraid 
> of, people that mouth off too have bad outcomes.   Maybe that policing is not 
> so bad? 
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of 
> *thompnicks...@gmail.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2021 9:10 AM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms
> 
>  
> 
> Marcus,
> 
>  
> 
> The position you take seems to be radical individualism, i.e., that there is 
> a me that exists and can be revealed by stripping away the constraints of any 
> social contact.  The contrasting view is that “me” is inevitably social, and 
> that it is revealed only by social interaction.  So the stable me, the naked 
> me, is actually a fiction, or at most, a statistical average. 

-- 
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Frank Wimberly]

I was largely paid for developing software during my career.  This explains
my impoverished publication record to some extent (50 refereed
papers/presentations).  In my last career position, I developed a large
library of Java programs for implementing algorithms in the area of
statistical causal reasoning (I should have said "SCR").  What I often did
was to write an English description of the purpose of the method or class
and include that in comments at the beginning.  Then I would include the
pseudocode or other description of each step of the algorithm also in
comments.  When Joe Ramsey took over this work I believe he said I had made
it easy for him to understand my code.  I know he said that my unit tests
were excellent.  That was because I used a well-documented and complex
example to test the methods.  I would then throw an exception if any
important intervening variable was computed to have a value that was
incorrect.  FWIW.

Frank

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 12:16 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> I am no longer an *effective* coder in the same sense Dave describes.
> But that doesn't mean I can't read and write code in a number of languages
> and idioms.  But it does mean that nobody should pay me for that work
> except insomuch as it is incidental to what I'm *really* doing for their
> filthy lucre.   It is very handy that I *can* read/write code across  a
> wide spectrum of languages/idioms, but far from acutely useful...  If I had
> to make a living doing it, I might be able to scrape enough rust off to be
> useful with it in a few restricted contexts, and probably paid out at
> roughly minimum wage, suggesting I would only take that kind of work in
> lieu of pumping gas (nobody outside of NJ/OR/NZ) actually pumps gas for a
> living anymore?!  I could probably do better cutting firewood or as a
> handyman or shade-tree mechanic.  And in the latter two cases, my main
> value would be triage/addressing of trivial problems followed by
> prescribing one kind of specialist or another for the actual skilled labor
> implied in many cases.
>
> I think that learning coding skills is something valuable to add to one's
> toolbox, not unlike learning how to weld/solder/braze (minimally) or do
> rough carpentry or learn the basics of fasteners and sealers (glue, nails,
> screws, caulk, varnish, paint, oil, etc.)
>
> The open question here is perhaps how well it helps one learn to
> communicate with humans (thus co-).   I think it expands one's metaphorical
> domains to work with, but it is more universally useful to describe a
> linear set of logical instructions into something more familiar like a
> Recipe or some colloquialism like "rinse... repeat" or navigational
> instructions (how to get here from there) or assemble furniture (open the
> box, inspect the contents, consider the final configuration, skim the
> directions for unexpected dependencies, execute step 1, iterate through
> numbered steps to final, VIOLA bookcase!)
>
> I find that *many* capable coders are NOT particularly capable
> communicators.   Among other things, their empathy is often stunted,
> possibly by being too focused on *rigor* vs *clarity* in the sense of
> GEPR/NST's discussion upthread.
>
> On the other hand, following Glen's conception of "self-programming" I
> think the Mr. Myagi/Karate Kid example is a good one.   We learn a set of
> actions, independent of understanding final purpose, ultimately developing
> a set of universal skills which are equally good for waxing a car or
> brushing aside an opponent's strike.   I don't know that Myagi nor the KK
> were coders by the definition here...   but in a fairly strong sense, that
> was what was going on.   Similarly, a lot of conventional rote learning is
> like that  the way we learn our times-tables, or diagram sentences,
> study for an anatomy or biology exam.
>
> My $.02 (inflation adjusted)
>
> - Steve
> On 1/27/21 11:45 AM, Prof David West wrote:
>
> Nick,
>
> I am no longer a good programmer/coder, although once ...  Really good
> coders like Glen, Marcus, Jon ... on the list, will probably disagree with
> me; but:
>
> Coding/programming is not communication — if restricted to coder >
> machine -> machine action. The machine is nothing more than the
> embodiment of a mathematical abstraction and coding is analogous to
> rearranging the symbols in a mathematical expression, such that, when
> resolved, the expression yields different results.
>
> No boss says what you quoted, but few programmers have not had the
> experience of "the damn machine keeps doing what I told it, instead of what
> I want."
>
> But — a program has two audiences: the machine (no communication here) and
> other programmers (tons of miscommunication here). This is what the
> reference from Eric Smith talks about. There is an entire, usually ignored,
> paradigm in computer science called "literate programming"  — the most
> prominent advocate, Donald Knuth.
>
> If one were skilled at literate prog

Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[David Eric Smith]

An even bigger inhibition comes if how you are doing matters to me, and I would 
rather contribute to helping that than to dragging it down.

> On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:29 AM, Prof David West  wrote:
> 
> Nick,
> 
> "I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating 
> what could our not appear on FRIAM."
> 
> A "government A-hole" is already there, albeit indirectly. All kinds of laws 
> against myriad different types of post. Plus, via tech puppets, vast swaths 
> of 'speech' / 'postings' are prohibited from appearing, even in "private" 
> fora such as FRIAM. And when rule 230 is essentially eliminated, it will get 
> much worse. Not to mention the excess prohibition of any type of "hurtful" 
> speech that will be coming in the months ahead — all prompted by government 
> A-holes legislating.
> 
> But the biggest inhibition on what can or cannot appear on FRIAM arises from 
> the majority culture and the self-censorship of those sensitive to it.
> 
> davew
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 5:40 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>  wrote:
>> Right, Marcus.  That's where I ended up, too.  While I need to IMAGINE that 
>> you can understand me, in order to write some of what I write, the fact that 
>> you don't, in the short run, doesn't matter.  The illusion of you 
>> attentively listening has broken many a writer's block.  I would hate it if 
>> some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could our not 
>> appear on FRIAM. 
>>  
>> You are in the unenviable position of agreeing with me. (};-\)
>>  
>> However, I do wonder what some of those people would say if we were better 
>> at engaging them.
>>  
>> Nick
>>  
>> Nick Thompson
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
>> 
>>  
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
>> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 4:03 PM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > >
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms
>> 
>>  
>> I'm not sure who you are accusing of what, and it doesn't matter.   Fwiw, I 
>> suppose I follow  a few underlying principles by default, unless I am being 
>> paid or whatnot:
>>  
>> 1) If someone is motivated to make a point or understand some topic, as 
>> there was some indication in some cases, then if some muttering is alien to 
>> them, they'll bother to puzzle it out or ask without being petulant about it.
>>  
>> 2) The burden is not on the speaker/sharer unless the speaker especially 
>> cares that the topic be understood and perhaps acted upon.  Say, if the 
>> speaker is engaging in political advocacy, or defending some claim where 
>> they have some skin in the game.  
>>  
>> 3) Electrons are cheap to move around and attention can be modulated.
>>  
>> Marcus
>>  
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
>> On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:03 AM
>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' > >
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms
>>  
>> Well, generally that is the paradox.  But the narcissism I am talking about 
>> is INTRA group narcissism  -- writing a post that one knows damn well only 2 
>> members of the group will understand.   We are a sufficiently broad group 
>> that I imagine that if we developed a language understood by most of us, it 
>> would also be understood by a lot of other people. 
>>  
>> But there is value to narcissism that might be lost if we tried to 
>> standardize.  That you all understand me is an illusion that helps me to 
>> write, and when I write, thoughts happen that I did not plan on happening.  
>> Even if NONE of you understood, that would be a gain for me.  I think many 
>> of us write to the list in this delusional way, and I can't claim that 
>> that's altogether a Bad Thing.
>>  
>> Nick
>>  
>> Nick Thompson
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
>> 
>>  
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
>> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 12:46 PM
>> To: friam@redfish.com 
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms
>>  
>> IDK, man. This contribution rings a bit hollow. Jargon, insider jokes and 
>> words, etc. all serve group cohesion. Coming from Nick

Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[thompnickson2]

Thanks, Jon.  

This is helpful.  Still, absent dualism, why isn’t getting a machine to do what 
you want a kind of communication.  Why privilege the inter-human kind.  

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 12:46 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

 

Nick,

 

I am no longer a good programmer/coder, although once ...  Really good coders 
like Glen, Marcus, Jon ... on the list, will probably disagree with me; but:

 

Coding/programming is not communication — if restricted to coder > machine 
-> machine action. The machine is nothing more than the embodiment of a 
mathematical abstraction and coding is analogous to rearranging the symbols in 
a mathematical expression, such that, when resolved, the expression yields 
different results.

 

No boss says what you quoted, but few programmers have not had the experience 
of "the damn machine keeps doing what I told it, instead of what I want."

 

But — a program has two audiences: the machine (no communication here) and 
other programmers (tons of miscommunication here). This is what the reference 
from Eric Smith talks about. There is an entire, usually ignored, paradigm in 
computer science called "literate programming"  — the most prominent advocate, 
Donald Knuth.

 

If one were skilled at literate programming, one would be communicating to 
another programmer (or herself at a later point in time) all the knowledge and 
meaning necessary for the latter to understand, modify, enhance, or correct the 
program as needs be. If possible this would be a communication skill worth 
developing — might lead to more precise and accurate communication outside the 
world of the computer.

 

"If possible," is key. Many, starting with Peter Naur, would argue that this 
kind of programmer-to=programmer communication is impossible because the 
medium, the code plus any written documentation, is too impoverished to 
communicate what needs to be communicated. In Naur's world, programming is 
joint theory building — a theory of "an affair in the world and how the program 
(addresses) it." Code and documentation represent maybe a tenth of that theory, 
the remainder being in the heads of those who developed it.

 

davew

 

 

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021, at 10:56 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
  wrote:

This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about life 
that we citizens need to know.   I imagine coding to be like trying to write an 
instruction to a person such that that person always does what you want them to 
do.  So, it is an act of communication in which the communicatee is always 
right, no matter how idiotic may be it’s response.  No boss ever says to a 
coder, “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the machine didn’t understand 
you.” 

 

Am I right about any of that?

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM

To: friam@redfish.com  

Subject: [FRIAM] coding versus music

 

 

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. 
Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, 
"computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

 

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and 
has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

 

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase 
the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

 

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific 
research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the 
research because it confirms long held biases against the value of 
"computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

 

dave west

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[FRIAM] NYU Professor Creates COVID-19 Dashboard to Compare Country and State Data

[Tom Johnson]

NYU Professor Creates COVID-19 Dashboard to Compare Country and State Data
by Sabrina I. Pacifici

on Jan
26, 2021

“A new online dashboard
,
created by NYU Professor Alexej Jerschow
,
brings together COVID-19 data from U.S. states and countries around the
world to compare cases, deaths, vaccines, and testing in a visual,
user-friendly format.  The tool also integrates a range of policies
governments have implemented to limit the spread of COVID-19—including
school closings, stay-at-home orders, and mask mandates—in an effort to
compare policy responses with COVID-19 outcomes.Jerschow, who is a
professor of chemistry and typically works in the field of magnetic
resonance imaging and battery research, was looking for a convenient way to
compare COVID-19 data from different countries and states. While the data
were available from different sources, there was not a single tool that
allowed him to easily analyze how different geographic areas were faring
and responding to the pandemic—so, he created one…The dashboard

combines
data from a series of publicly available sources. Country-wide information
is downloaded from Our World in Data
,
which sources its data from the Johns Hopkins Center for Systems Science
and Engineering dashboard
.
U.S. state and territory data are obtained from covidtracking.com
.
The Oxford COVID-19 Government Response Tracker (OxCGRT)

provides
policy data…”


Tom Johnson - t...@jtjohnson.com

Institute for Analytic Journalism   -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)505.473.9646(h)
*NM Foundation for Open Government*

*Check out It's The People's Data
*


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Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[thompnickson2]

.  Marcus wrote:

 

 In the world that I guess Dave is afraid of, people that mouth off too have 
bad outcomes.   Maybe that policing is not so bad? 

 

It depends upon our purposes.  Every once in a while I think we should put our 
heads above the ramparts and ask if we are paying to great a price for it.  But 
given the results of my little experiment, I would say no.  We are who we are 
and let’s just go on being the best us we can be.  

 

n

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 12:58 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

 

I guess I can see why you’d say that.   However, I’d argue there is still 
social behavior, even honesty and trust, in a world where information is 
exchanged in a very cautious way 

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com  
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 9:10 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

 

Marcus, 

 

The position you take seems to be radical individualism, i.e., that there is a 
me that exists and can be revealed by stripping away the constraints of any 
social contact.  The contrasting view is that “me” is inevitably social, and 
that it is revealed only by social interaction.  So the stable me, the naked 
me, is actually a fiction, or at most, a statistical average.  

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 10:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

 

Ok, I’ll take the other side.  There’s a way to say almost anything with 
indirection.   Some degree of censorship selects for people who can do that.   
(Not that I agree that this kind of legislation is really like to occur.)

 

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 7:54 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

 

I should have added, in the previous post, that the odd thing is that I know 
from the earlier exchanges that you already know this, and take some pride in 
following it.

 

On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:37 AM, David Eric Smith mailto:desm...@santafe.edu> > wrote:

 

An even bigger inhibition comes if how you are doing matters to me, and I would 
rather contribute to helping that than to dragging it down.

 

On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:29 AM, Prof David West mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm> > wrote:

 

Nick,

 

"I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating 
what could our not appear on FRIAM."

 

A "government A-hole" is already there, albeit indirectly. All kinds of laws 
against myriad different types of post. Plus, via tech puppets, vast swaths of 
'speech' / 'postings' are prohibited from appearing, even in "private" fora 
such as FRIAM. And when rule 230 is essentially eliminated, it will get much 
worse. Not to mention the excess prohibition of any type of "hurtful" speech 
that will be coming in the months ahead — all prompted by government A-holes 
legislating.

 

But the biggest inhibition on what can or cannot appear on FRIAM arises from 
the majority culture and the self-censorship of those sensitive to it.

 

davew

 

 

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 5:40 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
  wrote:

Right, Marcus.  That's where I ended up, too.  While I need to IMAGINE that you 
can understand me, in order to write some of what I write, the fact that you 
don't, in the short run, doesn't matter.  The illusion of you attentively 
listening has broken many a writer's block.  I would hate it if some Good 
Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could our not appear on 
FRIAM. 

 

You are in the unenviable position of agreeing with me. (};-\)

 

However, I do wonder what some of those people would say if we were better at 
engaging them.

 

Nick

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 

 

 

-Original Message-

From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> > On 
Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 4:03 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied C

Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[David Eric Smith]

I should have added, in the previous post, that the odd thing is that I know 
from the earlier exchanges that you already know this, and take some pride in 
following it.

> On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:37 AM, David Eric Smith  wrote:
> 
> An even bigger inhibition comes if how you are doing matters to me, and I 
> would rather contribute to helping that than to dragging it down.
> 
>> On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:29 AM, Prof David West > > wrote:
>> 
>> Nick,
>> 
>> "I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start 
>> dictating what could our not appear on FRIAM."
>> 
>> A "government A-hole" is already there, albeit indirectly. All kinds of laws 
>> against myriad different types of post. Plus, via tech puppets, vast swaths 
>> of 'speech' / 'postings' are prohibited from appearing, even in "private" 
>> fora such as FRIAM. And when rule 230 is essentially eliminated, it will get 
>> much worse. Not to mention the excess prohibition of any type of "hurtful" 
>> speech that will be coming in the months ahead — all prompted by government 
>> A-holes legislating.
>> 
>> But the biggest inhibition on what can or cannot appear on FRIAM arises from 
>> the majority culture and the self-censorship of those sensitive to it.
>> 
>> davew
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 5:40 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>>  wrote:
>>> Right, Marcus.  That's where I ended up, too.  While I need to IMAGINE that 
>>> you can understand me, in order to write some of what I write, the fact 
>>> that you don't, in the short run, doesn't matter.  The illusion of you 
>>> attentively listening has broken many a writer's block.  I would hate it if 
>>> some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could our 
>>> not appear on FRIAM. 
>>>  
>>> You are in the unenviable position of agreeing with me. (};-\)
>>>  
>>> However, I do wonder what some of those people would say if we were better 
>>> at engaging them.
>>>  
>>> Nick
>>>  
>>> Nick Thompson
>>> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
>>> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 4:03 PM
>>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> >
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms
>>> 
>>>  
>>> I'm not sure who you are accusing of what, and it doesn't matter.   Fwiw, I 
>>> suppose I follow  a few underlying principles by default, unless I am being 
>>> paid or whatnot:
>>>  
>>> 1) If someone is motivated to make a point or understand some topic, as 
>>> there was some indication in some cases, then if some muttering is alien to 
>>> them, they'll bother to puzzle it out or ask without being petulant about 
>>> it.
>>>  
>>> 2) The burden is not on the speaker/sharer unless the speaker especially 
>>> cares that the topic be understood and perhaps acted upon.  Say, if the 
>>> speaker is engaging in political advocacy, or defending some claim where 
>>> they have some skin in the game.  
>>>  
>>> 3) Electrons are cheap to move around and attention can be modulated.
>>>  
>>> Marcus
>>>  
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
>>> On Behalf Of thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 11:03 AM
>>> To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' >> >
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms
>>>  
>>> Well, generally that is the paradox.  But the narcissism I am talking about 
>>> is INTRA group narcissism  -- writing a post that one knows damn well only 
>>> 2 members of the group will understand.   We are a sufficiently broad group 
>>> that I imagine that if we developed a language understood by most of us, it 
>>> would also be understood by a lot of other people. 
>>>  
>>> But there is value to narcissism that might be lost if we tried to 
>>> standardize.  That you all understand me is an illusion that helps me to 
>>> write, and when I write, thoughts happen that I did not plan on happening.  
>>> Even if NONE of you understood, that would be a gain for me.  I think many 
>>> of us write to the list in this delusional way, and I can't claim that 
>>> that's altogether a Bad Thing.
>>>  
>>> Nick
>>>  
>>> Nick Thompson
>>> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 

Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[uǝlƃ ↙↙↙]

Because you're free to define *anything* as a kind of communication if you're 
so inclined. But it's not helpful and smacks of sophistry, if not bad faith 
rhetoric. Sure, that garage door opener I built from a raspberry pi can be 
*thought* of as a kind of communication. But really?!? No. It's a garage door 
opener.


On 1/27/21 11:46 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> This is helpful.  Still, absent dualism, why isn’t getting a machine to do 
> what you want a kind of communication.  Why privilege the inter-human kind. 

-- 
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[thompnickson2]

You missed the conditional. "Absent dualism..." what separates getting a 
machine to do something from getting a human to do something?  If you answer is 
"dualism", then there's no need to talk further.  We've been there, done that!  
n

Nick Thompson
thompnicks...@gmail.com
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 2:02 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

Because you're free to define *anything* as a kind of communication if you're 
so inclined. But it's not helpful and smacks of sophistry, if not bad faith 
rhetoric. Sure, that garage door opener I built from a raspberry pi can be 
*thought* of as a kind of communication. But really?!? No. It's a garage door 
opener.


On 1/27/21 11:46 AM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> This is helpful.  Still, absent dualism, why isn’t getting a machine 
> to do what you want a kind of communication.  Why privilege the inter-human 
> kind.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[jon zingale]

Whoa, Nick! That was Dave and not me.



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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[uǝlƃ ↙↙↙]

No, I didn't miss the conditional. Both with and without monism, you can call 
anything "communication" if you want. The garage door opener can, given monism, 
and given stigmergy, be thought of as a communication from me to some far 
future civilization, for example... or as a way to tell GE how to build a 
better one, or whatever. But it's not. Sometimes a garage door opener is just a 
garage door opener. It's completely useless to expand every artifact out into a 
kind of communication.

So, sometimes a programmed computer is communication and sometimes it's not. 
Talk concretely about what you want to talk about and the conversation will be 
more productive.

On 1/27/21 12:05 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> You missed the conditional. "Absent dualism..." what separates getting a 
> machine to do something from getting a human to do something?  If you answer 
> is "dualism", then there's no need to talk further.  We've been there, done 
> that!  

-- 
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[David Eric Smith]

Hi Nick,

There’s a certain libertarian rhetorical flourish that (to my ear) takes the 
form of defiantly asserting that nobody should expect you to give a damn about 
anybody else.  But often people to whom indulging in that flourish is important 
are people who are quite concerned about right action, even at the same time as 
THEY REALLY DON’T LIKE TO BE TOLD WHAT TO DO.

Okay, so the world’s complicated.

A society with no ethos that I am sometimes my brother’s keeper degrades — I 
believe — eventually to an arena of sociopaths.  Mostly even in our worst 
conditions we are not that.  There have been some examples in history that 
start to approximate it, and by comparison we can see that we are not near 
there yet.

So why dissemble?  Dissembling is another vanity, which gets in the way of 
trying for clarity.  To do it for art, for entertainment, for the joy of 
expression, all good; we want life to have ample space for all those.  But if 
clarity is an objective, to say that, yes, I was born human, and you are human, 
and that saddles me with certain not only options, but responsibilities of 
inhibition to care for your wellbeing, gives a report of what you can expect 
from me.  Expectations are important in the domain of non-cooperative (in the 
technical, game-theoretic sense) domain of actions.  

So, only that I find the importance of that style odd.

Eric


> On Jan 27, 2021, at 11:56 AM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi, Eric,
>  
> Can you say a bit more?  I didn’t follow.  If it’s obvious, somebody could 
> just take pity on me and write me off line.
>  
> n
>  
> Nick Thompson
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
> 
>  
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 9:54 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms
>  
> I should have added, in the previous post, that the odd thing is that I know 
> from the earlier exchanges that you already know this, and take some pride in 
> following it.
> 
> 
>> On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:37 AM, David Eric Smith > > wrote:
>>  
>> An even bigger inhibition comes if how you are doing matters to me, and I 
>> would rather contribute to helping that than to dragging it down.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:29 AM, Prof David West >> > wrote:
>>>  
>>> Nick,
>>>  
>>> "I would hate it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start 
>>> dictating what could our not appear on FRIAM."
>>>  
>>> A "government A-hole" is already there, albeit indirectly. All kinds of 
>>> laws against myriad different types of post. Plus, via tech puppets, vast 
>>> swaths of 'speech' / 'postings' are prohibited from appearing, even in 
>>> "private" fora such as FRIAM. And when rule 230 is essentially eliminated, 
>>> it will get much worse. Not to mention the excess prohibition of any type 
>>> of "hurtful" speech that will be coming in the months ahead — all prompted 
>>> by government A-holes legislating.
>>>  
>>> But the biggest inhibition on what can or cannot appear on FRIAM arises 
>>> from the majority culture and the self-censorship of those sensitive to it.
>>>  
>>> davew
>>>  
>>>  
>>> On Tue, Jan 26, 2021, at 5:40 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>>>  wrote:
 Right, Marcus.  That's where I ended up, too.  While I need to IMAGINE 
 that you can understand me, in order to write some of what I write, the 
 fact that you don't, in the short run, doesn't matter.  The illusion of 
 you attentively listening has broken many a writer's block.  I would hate 
 it if some Good Government A-hole like me would start dictating what could 
 our not appear on FRIAM. 
  
 You are in the unenviable position of agreeing with me. (};-\)
  
 However, I do wonder what some of those people would say if we were better 
 at engaging them.
  
 Nick
  
 Nick Thompson
 thompnicks...@gmail.com 
 https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
 
  
 -Original Message-
 From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> 
 On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
 Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 4:03 PM
 To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >>> >
 Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms
  
  
 I'm not sure who you are accusing of what, and it doesn't matter.   Fwiw, 
 I suppose I fo

Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Edward Angel]

Going back to Dave’s original post, to me a big part of the issue is what is 
meant by “coding.” Unfortunately for manys in CS education, coding has come to 
refer only to the very last step in a complex process; namely, converting a 
final detailed set of instructions into computer code for a particular computer 
language. This is especially true of what as happened in the schools with 
programs that claim to teach coding and STEM. It’s why many of us prefer to use 
the term “computational thinking” when dealing with CS education.

If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine, if not 
now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.

Ed
___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu 

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel 


> On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West  wrote:
> 
> For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. 
> Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, 
> "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.
> 
> A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and 
> has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.
> 
> An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase 
> the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.
> 
> I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific 
> research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the 
> research because it confirms long held biases against the value of 
> "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge 
> domain.
> 
> dave west
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[David Eric Smith]

Nick, I think you should fine the perspective advanced here very congenial.

https://opendocs.github.io/sicp/sicp.pdf 


I know the people who code for a living will sigh and say “how quaint, what the 
guy who doesn’t know anything about this work thinks is our literature”.  
Granted.  My younger colleagues, whose work I have forwarded to this list, have 
never read it and many have never heard of it.  Yet for (I think) well more 
than a decade, it was a core standard at MIT.

As an outsider who knows nothing, I find it a terrific introduction, and do not 
yet understand why anyone would recommend _against_ taking at least a little 
time to read within it.

Eric



> On Jan 27, 2021, at 12:56 PM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about life 
> that we citizens need to know.   I imagine coding to be like trying to write 
> an instruction to a person such that that person always does what you want 
> them to do.  So, it is an act of communication in which the communicatee is 
> always right, no matter how idiotic may be it’s response.  No boss ever says 
> to a coder, “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the machine didn’t 
> understand you.”  
>  
> Am I right about any of that?
>  
> Nick Thompson
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ 
> 
>  
> From: Friam mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>> On 
> Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM
> To: friam@redfish.com 
> Subject: [FRIAM] coding versus music
>  
> For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. 
> Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, 
> "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.
>  
> A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and 
> has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.
>  
> An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase 
> the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.
>  
> I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific 
> research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the 
> research because it confirms long held biases against the value of 
> "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge 
> domain.
>  
> dave west
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Marcus Daniels]

Or computational thinking that has a machine-readable form to facilitate 
cognitive offload of certain mechanical aspects.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Edward Angel
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 1:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

Going back to Dave’s original post, to me a big part of the issue is what is 
meant by “coding.” Unfortunately for manys in CS education, coding has come to 
refer only to the very last step in a complex process; namely, converting a 
final detailed set of instructions into computer code for a particular computer 
language. This is especially true of what as happened in the schools with 
programs that claim to teach coding and STEM. It’s why many of us prefer to use 
the term “computational thinking” when dealing with CS education.

If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine, if not 
now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.

Ed
___

Ed Angel
Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) 
an...@cs.unm.edu
505-453-4944 (cell)
http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel


On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West 
mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm>> wrote:

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. 
Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, 
"computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and 
has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase 
the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific 
research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the 
research because it confirms long held biases against the value of 
"computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west
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Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[⛧ glen]

For Frank, because I realized later that I used some specialized jargon:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shitposter


On January 27, 2021 11:22:28 AM PST, "uǝlƃ ↙↙↙"  wrote:
>
>I'm not at all concerned with what happens to the individual
>sh¡tposter. I *am* concerned what happens to the infrastructure on
>which the sh¡tposter posts. It's an important debate crossing lots of
>domains and with both practical and ideal issues. It's fine if we don't
>want to have the debate. But it's myopic to cartoon it away.
>
-- 
glen ⛧

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Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[Marcus Daniels]

One can navigate some moderation by structuring arguments in pieces, leaving it 
to the reader to fill in some dots.   In crude form, we saw that with Trump and 
the riots.   (I recall you argued he wouldn't be convicted in a court of law.)
One can call this self-censorship, but it is also self-control.   The kind of 
self-control that rioters lacked is a good thing to incentivize; it is useful 
to let those without self-control get nabbed; they are plainly dangerous.

“People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought 
which they seldom use.” ― Søren Kierkegaard

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:22 AM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

The particular thing Dave cited  
follows nicely with our discussion of forcing a *format* for posts. If it's 
eliminated or changed such that the hosts of redfish.com become responsible for 
the posts, then that changes the game quite a bit.

From my interpretation of EricS' part, it's not a bad thing to rely on implicit 
structure in judging content. So removing 230 would make redfish.com more like 
a traditional medium that has to take some responsibility for posts. And even 
strict moderation can be justified, if only based on principles of kindness and 
people as ends in themselves.

From my interpretation of Dave's part, if only deeply resourced agents can 
*afford* to publish controversial things, then that feeds the oligarchy and 
risks all the authoritarian circumstances we're afraid of. Even with 230, there 
are libel laws, revenge porn laws, hate speech laws, etc. that restrict what we 
can post. But without 230, it would be fairly easy for someone who doesn't like 
one of us oft-posting blowhards to get redfish.com shut down.

I'm not at all concerned with what happens to the individual sh¡tposter. I *am* 
concerned what happens to the infrastructure on which the sh¡tposter posts. 
It's an important debate crossing lots of domains and with both practical and 
ideal issues. It's fine if we don't want to have the debate. But it's myopic to 
cartoon it away.

On 1/27/21 10:57 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> I guess I can see why you’d say that.   However, I’d argue there is 
> still social behavior, even honesty and trust, in a world where information 
> is exchanged in a very cautious way.    In the world that I guess Dave is 
> afraid of, people that mouth off too have bad outcomes.   Maybe that policing 
> is not so bad?
> 
>  
> 
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of 
> *thompnicks...@gmail.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2021 9:10 AM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
> 
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms
> 
>  
> 
> Marcus,
> 
>  
> 
> The position you take seems to be radical individualism, i.e., that 
> there is a me that exists and can be revealed by stripping away the 
> constraints of any social contact.  The contrasting view is that “me” is 
> inevitably social, and that it is revealed only by social interaction.  So 
> the stable me, the naked me, is actually a fiction, or at most, a statistical 
> average.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[Marcus Daniels]

ROTFL



-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of ? glen
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 2:18 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms



For Frank, because I realized later that I used some specialized jargon:



https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shitposter





On January 27, 2021 11:22:28 AM PST, "uǝlƃ ↙↙↙" 
mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

>

>I'm not at all concerned with what happens to the individual

>sh¡tposter. I *am* concerned what happens to the infrastructure on

>which the sh¡tposter posts. It's an important debate crossing lots of

>domains and with both practical and ideal issues. It's fine if we don't

>want to have the debate. But it's myopic to cartoon it away.

>

--

glen ⛧



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Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[Frank Wimberly]

Hmm.  Must be like a sh1thole country.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021, 3:27 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> ROTFL 
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of ? glen
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 2:18 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms
>
>
>
> For Frank, because I realized later that I used some specialized jargon:
>
>
>
> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shitposter
>
>
>
>
>
> On January 27, 2021 11:22:28 AM PST, "uǝlƃ ↙↙↙" 
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >I'm not at all concerned with what happens to the individual
>
> >sh¡tposter. I *am* concerned what happens to the infrastructure on
>
> >which the sh¡tposter posts. It's an important debate crossing lots of
>
> >domains and with both practical and ideal issues. It's fine if we don't
>
> >want to have the debate. But it's myopic to cartoon it away.
>
> >
>
> --
>
> glen ⛧
>
>
>
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>
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>
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>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] Acronyms

[uǝlƃ ↙↙↙]

Ha! Well-done. To be clear, I only argued that *were* I a Senator, which is 
laughable due to my lack of self-control, I would probably vote to acquit 
because they charged him with the wrong high crime. I'm definitely one of the 
ones who would be moderated out sooner rather than later ... though Renee' is 
usually moderated out even before me ... which is an expression of True Love. 
8^D

On 1/27/21 2:17 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> One can navigate some moderation by structuring arguments in pieces, leaving 
> it to the reader to fill in some dots.   In crude form, we saw that with 
> Trump and the riots.   (I recall you argued he wouldn't be convicted in a 
> court of law.)
> One can call this self-censorship, but it is also self-control.   The kind of 
> self-control that rioters lacked is a good thing to incentivize; it is useful 
> to let those without self-control get nabbed; they are plainly dangerous.
> 
> “People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought 
> which they seldom use.” ― Søren Kierkegaard

-- 
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] Message to the non-posting 95%

[thompnickson2]

Gary,

 

I’m afraid I just made it up to satirize my own feeble attempt to energize the 
non-posters amongst us.   Thanks for sticking with us all these years.  

 

Nick 

 

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:30 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Message to the non-posting 95%

 

Nick says: “There followed an eerie silence.  Scientist strained at their 
earphones to ear, examined their screens for any anomalous squiggle.  Finally, 
the director sighed, ‘I guess there is no life in outer space.’”

 

That sounds like an interesting beginning or ending to a scifi novel. Is it, or 
did you just paraphrase something? Regardless, I'd like to read it.

 

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 12:05 PM mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > wrote:

“There followed an eerie silence.  Scientist strained at their earphones to 
ear, examined their screens for any anomalous squiggle.  Finally, the director 
sighed, ‘I guess there is no life in outer space.’”

 

Nick Thompson

  thompnicks...@gmail.com

  
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

From: thompnicks...@gmail.com   
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2021 8:59 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Message to the non-posting 95%

 

Dear non-bloviators,

 

Some of us bloviators have suddenly woken to the realization that we have no 
idea what you are thinking or what topics require discussion in a forum vaguely 
related to complexity.  I for one, am curious.  Hallooo!  Anybody out there?

 

Nick 

 

Nick Thompson

thompnicks...@gmail.com  

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

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Re: [FRIAM] Message to the non-posting 95%

[Roger Critchlow]

This whole thread went into my gmail spam folder.

Why is this message in spam?

It is similar to messages that were identified as spam in the past.


-- rec --

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 6:31 PM  wrote:

> Gary,
>
>
>
> I’m afraid I just made it up to satirize my own feeble attempt to energize
> the non-posters amongst us.   Thanks for sticking with us all these years.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Gary Schiltz
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:30 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Message to the non-posting 95%
>
>
>
> Nick says: “There followed an eerie silence.  Scientist strained at their
> earphones to ear, examined their screens for any anomalous squiggle.
> Finally, the director sighed, ‘I guess there is no life in outer space.’”
>
>
>
> That sounds like an interesting beginning or ending to a scifi novel. Is
> it, or did you just paraphrase something? Regardless, I'd like to read it.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 12:05 PM  wrote:
>
> “There followed an eerie silence.  Scientist strained at their earphones
> to ear, examined their screens for any anomalous squiggle.  Finally, the
> director sighed, ‘I guess there is no life in outer space.’”
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 26, 2021 8:59 PM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Message to the non-posting 95%
>
>
>
> Dear non-bloviators,
>
>
>
> Some of us bloviators have suddenly woken to the realization that we have
> no idea what you are thinking or what topics require discussion in a forum
> vaguely related to complexity.  I for one, am curious.  Hallooo!
> Anybody out there?
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Message to the non-posting 95%

[uǝlƃ ↙↙↙]

The question I have is whether the similarity is mostly in the payload or 
mostly in the metadata. I welcome clues from any spam-gurus. I also think it 
depends on the extent to which your filter is crowdsourced, as well. It strikes 
me that GMail (and such) users have an economy of scale in recognizing spam 
that offline bayes filterers don't have.

It would be a fun, but maybe cruel prank to play on someone to get all your 
friends to mark all emails from some poor shlub as spam so that Google users 
worldwide began sending their emails to spam.

On 1/27/21 5:07 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> This whole thread went into my gmail spam folder.
> 
> 
> Why is this message in spam? 
> 
> It is similar to messages that were identified as spam in the past.

-- 
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] Message to the non-posting 95%

[Marcus Daniels]

Roger is just saying we are boring and that he ignores our posts.  gmail 
follows his preferences.

-Original Message-
From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 5:20 PM
To: FriAM 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Message to the non-posting 95%

The question I have is whether the similarity is mostly in the payload or 
mostly in the metadata. I welcome clues from any spam-gurus. I also think it 
depends on the extent to which your filter is crowdsourced, as well. It strikes 
me that GMail (and such) users have an economy of scale in recognizing spam 
that offline bayes filterers don't have.

It would be a fun, but maybe cruel prank to play on someone to get all your 
friends to mark all emails from some poor shlub as spam so that Google users 
worldwide began sending their emails to spam.

On 1/27/21 5:07 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> This whole thread went into my gmail spam folder.
> 
> 
> Why is this message in spam?
> 
> It is similar to messages that were identified as spam in the past.

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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Roger Critchlow]

So I've been deep in a FORTRAN program for decoding an amateur radio mode
called FT8.  I was going to recommend this to the supercomputing challenge
student that Stephen is advising, because it's used for
multi-senders/multi-listeners on a single audio channel, but I'm glad/sad I
looked into it first because it's a mess.  The astrophysicist and Nobelist
Joe Taylor at Princeton has been working on various low power low baud
communication amateur radio protocols for decades now and they're all in
this source tar ball, the protocols, the encoders, the decoders, the
programs, the libraries, all the false starts, and every simulator anyone
ever thought of making.   And then there's the Qt user interface that
someone else layered on to the package.

So I'm picking my way through this wasteland of living, dead, and zombie
code to follow the thread of one program that's embedded in it.  My FORTRAN
is very rusty, and they've redefined the language a bit since the 1970's.
But I'm getting the gist of it as I muck along.  Programming is
communication of intent to make a computation, often thwarted.   Thwarted
by the programmer's communication skills, technical skills, the tools
available, the programming language, the skills of the previous programmer
on the project, the legacy cruft that might have to be preserved, and all
the usual woes of all other modes of communication.  I have some notes in
front of me which demonstrated that I didn't divide 58 by 2 correctly on
the first try and spent a half an hour figuring out that was the problem.
Minor set back compared to my efforts to imagine belief propagation.  Who
would guess that belief propagation is how communication protocols get
decoded?

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Re: [FRIAM] Message to the non-posting 95%

[Frank Wimberly]

I recently mentioned Joe Ramsey in a thread about music vs computing as
brain training for the young.  He is a concert level pianist and an
excellent developer of software for scientific applications.  He said he
thought that discussion was interesting.  He said, "I have to say that
eventually you get to a point with either one where no matter how much
tinkering you try to do you are unsatisfied, and you want to do it *right*.
Or *optimally*. And then your tinkering becomes imbued with careful
attention to technique. And then you may as well get a job, you're done
for."

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021, 7:14 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> Roger is just saying we are boring and that he ignores our posts.  gmail
> follows his preferences.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ???
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 5:20 PM
> To: FriAM 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Message to the non-posting 95%
>
> The question I have is whether the similarity is mostly in the payload or
> mostly in the metadata. I welcome clues from any spam-gurus. I also think
> it depends on the extent to which your filter is crowdsourced, as well. It
> strikes me that GMail (and such) users have an economy of scale in
> recognizing spam that offline bayes filterers don't have.
>
> It would be a fun, but maybe cruel prank to play on someone to get all
> your friends to mark all emails from some poor shlub as spam so that Google
> users worldwide began sending their emails to spam.
>
> On 1/27/21 5:07 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> > This whole thread went into my gmail spam folder.
> >
> >
> > Why is this message in spam?
> >
> > It is similar to messages that were identified as spam in the past.
>
> --
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Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

[Marcus Daniels]

Fortran after 2008 is not bad.  It’s all the old Fortran programmers who are a 
danger to themselves and others.

From: Friam  On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 6:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

So I've been deep in a FORTRAN program for decoding an amateur radio mode 
called FT8.  I was going to recommend this to the supercomputing challenge 
student that Stephen is advising, because it's used for 
multi-senders/multi-listeners on a single audio channel, but I'm glad/sad I 
looked into it first because it's a mess.  The astrophysicist and Nobelist Joe 
Taylor at Princeton has been working on various low power low baud 
communication amateur radio protocols for decades now and they're all in this 
source tar ball, the protocols, the encoders, the decoders, the programs, the 
libraries, all the false starts, and every simulator anyone ever thought of 
making.   And then there's the Qt user interface that someone else layered on 
to the package.

So I'm picking my way through this wasteland of living, dead, and zombie code 
to follow the thread of one program that's embedded in it.  My FORTRAN is very 
rusty, and they've redefined the language a bit since the 1970's.  But I'm 
getting the gist of it as I muck along.  Programming is communication of intent 
to make a computation, often thwarted.   Thwarted by the programmer's 
communication skills, technical skills, the tools available, the programming 
language, the skills of the previous programmer on the project, the legacy 
cruft that might have to be preserved, and all the usual woes of all other 
modes of communication.  I have some notes in front of me which demonstrated 
that I didn't divide 58 by 2 correctly on the first try and spent a half an 
hour figuring out that was the problem.  Minor set back compared to my efforts 
to imagine belief propagation.  Who would guess that belief propagation is how 
communication protocols get decoded?

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Re: [FRIAM] Message to the non-posting 95%

[jon zingale]

Ha! Sounds about right.



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Re: [FRIAM] NYU Professor Creates COVID-19 Dashboard to Compare Country and State Data

[Sarbajit Roy]

GIGO.

COVID-19 statistics (data) is suspect and not strictly comparable across
countries, starting with China's numbers.

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 1:20 AM Tom Johnson  wrote:

> NYU Professor Creates COVID-19 Dashboard to Compare Country and State Data
> by Sabrina I. Pacifici
> 
>  on Jan
> 26, 2021
>
> “A new online dashboard
> ,
> created by NYU Professor Alexej Jerschow
> ,
> brings together COVID-19 data from U.S. states and countries around the
> world to compare cases, deaths, vaccines, and testing in a visual,
> user-friendly format.  The tool also integrates a range of policies
>
>
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