Re: [FRIAM] [EXT] Swirlies redux

[John Kennison]

Hi Nick,

My theory would be that in order to drain the upper bottle, the best route for 
the water is to move along a cyclical path.  And the best path follows a 
preferred rotation, say clockwise or counterclockwise.  If you start the 
rotation along the preferred rotation, then the bottle drains more quickly. But 
if you start the rotation in the opposite of the preferred rotation, the bottle 
takes more time to drain.


--John



From: Friam  on behalf of Nicholas Thompson 

Sent: Friday, August 4, 2023 10:05 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
Subject: [EXT] [FRIAM] Swirlies redux


Ok, folks. I apologize to those of you who are fed up with my kitchen physics, 
but there has been a bit of a development in that saga that I want to share 
with those few of you who aren’t.   Years ago, I came home for the summer with 
my ears ringing with the notion that structures are formed to dissipate 
gradients.  Please set aside any teleological implications of this statement 
and ask the question in its most neutral form:  Do the structures that 
sometimes form as a gradient is dissipated dissipate it more quickly once the 
structure has been formed.   Or, as I came to interpret it, does facilitating 
the formation of such a structure speed the dissipation of the gradient.

I was the family dishwasher at the time.  I deplore washing dishes, but I love 
messing around with warm soapy water, and so I started to experiment with 
starting the vortex that forms after you pull the plug out of the sink before I 
pulled the plug.  Quickly, it became apparent that facilitating the vortex 
formation in that way GREATLY SLOWED the emptying of the sink.  Triumphally, I 
wrote Steve on Friam only to be greeted by a torrent of scatological raillery, 
so intense and so persistent from the fluid dynamicists on the list that I 
never heard from Steve. The burden of this raillery I have distilled into 
Roberts Rule of Order:  DEFROCKED ENGLISH MAJORS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO TALK 
about fluid dynamics.

More than a decade later, I am back in Massachusetts, washing dishes at the 
same sink, and the question occurred to me again. I raised it finally with 
Steve, and he generously sent me the little two-bottle toy, where you flip it 
over and the water drains from one bottle to the other.  As it drains, it forms 
a vortex in the draining bottle, and the occurrence of the vortex greatly 
increases the speed of the draining.  Finally, if one facilitates the formation 
of the vortex by rotating the bottle a bit, the bottle drains even more 
quickly.  Thus, the result is entirely different, especially if one substitutes 
two large pop bottles for the ones included in the kit.

At the risk of bringing another round of raillery down on my head, I opine that 
the difference has something to do with the fact that two bottle situation is 
more of a closed system than the sink situation.  The test would be to saw the 
bottom off both bottles and demonstrate that vortex-formation now slows 
drainage.

It will be a while, though, before I can get two extra bottles to destroy.

Does anybody care to make a prediction and offer an explanation why the results 
should be different in the two cases?

Nick
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Swirlies redux

[Stephen Guerin]

chatGPT, you are a graduate student at c the Santa Fe Institute's complex
systems summer school, write a lab report on your experiences with the
tornado in a tube.


**Student Lab Report**

**Title:** Insights into Fluid Dynamics and Symmetry Breaking via 'Tornado
in a Tube'

**Objective:** This lab aimed to explore the critical principles of fluid
dynamics, including the principle of least action, surface tension, broken
symmetry, and their impacts on fluid behavior, using the 'tornado in a
tube' experiment. We introduced variations in the system's orientation,
structural changes, and the application of external forces to further
understand these principles.

**Method:** Our setup included two 2-liter clear plastic bottles, water, a
tube connector, and glitter for fluid visualization. We followed the
procedure outlined in the lab exercise, with additional testing for
different system orientations, external force applications, and structural
modifications.

**Findings:**

1. **Role of Surface Tension in Vertical Setup:** With the bottles
vertically aligned, surface tension at the bottleneck significantly slowed
the drainage process. This resulted in a droplet-like flow and a drainage
time of 8 minutes and 12 seconds.

2. **Influence of External Forces:** By applying an external force to the
system—squeezing the top bottle in pulses—we managed to overcome the
surface tension resistance. This modified approach expedited the drainage
process to a time of 1 minute and 47 seconds.

3. **Impact of System Orientation:** We then experimented with tilting the
bottles to different angles. A tilt of approximately 42 degrees provided
the quickest drainage time—2 minutes and 32 seconds. The tilt balanced the
inflow of air and the outflow of water, thereby managing the effects of
surface tension effectively.

4. **Vortex Formation, Symmetry Breaking and the Principle of Least
Action:** In the next step, we swirled the top bottle to form a vortex,
leading to a broken symmetry in angular momentum. This energy-efficient
pathway embodied the principle of least action, allowing the water to
overcome the surface tension barrier and to drain in an impressive 18
seconds. This broken symmetry enabled the efficient dissipation of the
gradient between the bottles.

5. **Effects of Structural Changes:** Our final test involved an open-ended
tube setup. Here, we observed noticeable changes in fluid behavior. The
vortex's efficiency in gradient dissipation decreased due to interference
from the ambient pressure, indicating the crucial role structural features
play in fluid dynamics.

**Conclusion:** The 'tornado in a tube' experiment, complemented by our
additional tests, provided a comprehensive understanding of fluid dynamics
principles. The observed differences in drainage times highlighted the
significant impact of system orientation, the principle of least action,
surface tension, and broken symmetry on fluid dynamics. These findings
offer deeper insights into fluid behavior and are applicable to a range of
real-world phenomena, from weather systems to biological processes.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 8:05 PM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Ok, folks. I apologize to those of you who are fed up with my kitchen
> physics, but there has been a bit of a development in that saga that I want
> to share with those few of you who aren’t.   Years ago, I came home for
> the summer with my ears ringing with the notion that structures are formed
> to dissipate gradients.  Please set aside any teleological implications
> of this statement and ask the question in its most neutral form:  Do the
> structures that sometimes form as a gradient is dissipated dissipate it
> more quickly once the structure has been formed.   Or, as I came to
> interpret it, does facilitating the formation of such a structure speed the
> dissipation of the gradient.
>
> I was the family dishwasher at the time.  I deplore washing dishes, but I
> love messing around with warm soapy water, and so I started to experiment
> with starting the vortex that forms *after* you pull the plug out of the
> sink *before* I pulled the plug.  Quickly, it became apparent that
> facilitating the vortex formation in that way GREATLY SLOWED the emptying
> of the sink.  Triumphally, I wrote Steve on Friam only to be greeted by a
> torrent of scatological raillery, so intense and so persistent from the
> fluid dynamicists on the list that I never heard from Steve. The burden of
> this raillery I have distilled into Roberts Rule of Order:  DEFROCKED
> ENGLISH MAJORS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO TALK about fluid dynamics.
>
> More than a decade later, I am back in Massachusetts, washing dishes at
> the same sink, and the question occurred to me again. I raised it finally
> with Steve, and he generously sent me the little two-bottle toy, where you
> flip it over and the water drains from one bottle to the other.  As it
> drains, it forms a vortex in the draining bottle, and the occurrence of the
> vortex 

Re: [FRIAM] Swirlies redux

[Stephen Guerin]

There were 10 or so intermediate prompts to drive chatGPT to that lab
report.

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 8:52 AM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

> chatGPT, you are a graduate student at c the Santa Fe Institute's complex
> systems summer school, write a lab report on your experiences with the
> tornado in a tube.
>
>
> **Student Lab Report**
>
> **Title:** Insights into Fluid Dynamics and Symmetry Breaking via 'Tornado
> in a Tube'
>
> **Objective:** This lab aimed to explore the critical principles of fluid
> dynamics, including the principle of least action, surface tension, broken
> symmetry, and their impacts on fluid behavior, using the 'tornado in a
> tube' experiment. We introduced variations in the system's orientation,
> structural changes, and the application of external forces to further
> understand these principles.
>
> **Method:** Our setup included two 2-liter clear plastic bottles, water, a
> tube connector, and glitter for fluid visualization. We followed the
> procedure outlined in the lab exercise, with additional testing for
> different system orientations, external force applications, and structural
> modifications.
>
> **Findings:**
>
> 1. **Role of Surface Tension in Vertical Setup:** With the bottles
> vertically aligned, surface tension at the bottleneck significantly slowed
> the drainage process. This resulted in a droplet-like flow and a drainage
> time of 8 minutes and 12 seconds.
>
> 2. **Influence of External Forces:** By applying an external force to the
> system—squeezing the top bottle in pulses—we managed to overcome the
> surface tension resistance. This modified approach expedited the drainage
> process to a time of 1 minute and 47 seconds.
>
> 3. **Impact of System Orientation:** We then experimented with tilting the
> bottles to different angles. A tilt of approximately 42 degrees provided
> the quickest drainage time—2 minutes and 32 seconds. The tilt balanced the
> inflow of air and the outflow of water, thereby managing the effects of
> surface tension effectively.
>
> 4. **Vortex Formation, Symmetry Breaking and the Principle of Least
> Action:** In the next step, we swirled the top bottle to form a vortex,
> leading to a broken symmetry in angular momentum. This energy-efficient
> pathway embodied the principle of least action, allowing the water to
> overcome the surface tension barrier and to drain in an impressive 18
> seconds. This broken symmetry enabled the efficient dissipation of the
> gradient between the bottles.
>
> 5. **Effects of Structural Changes:** Our final test involved an
> open-ended tube setup. Here, we observed noticeable changes in fluid
> behavior. The vortex's efficiency in gradient dissipation decreased due to
> interference from the ambient pressure, indicating the crucial role
> structural features play in fluid dynamics.
>
> **Conclusion:** The 'tornado in a tube' experiment, complemented by our
> additional tests, provided a comprehensive understanding of fluid dynamics
> principles. The observed differences in drainage times highlighted the
> significant impact of system orientation, the principle of least action,
> surface tension, and broken symmetry on fluid dynamics. These findings
> offer deeper insights into fluid behavior and are applicable to a range of
> real-world phenomena, from weather systems to biological processes.
>
> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 8:05 PM Nicholas Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> Ok, folks. I apologize to those of you who are fed up with my kitchen
>> physics, but there has been a bit of a development in that saga that I want
>> to share with those few of you who aren’t.   Years ago, I came home for
>> the summer with my ears ringing with the notion that structures are formed
>> to dissipate gradients.  Please set aside any teleological implications
>> of this statement and ask the question in its most neutral form:  Do the
>> structures that sometimes form as a gradient is dissipated dissipate it
>> more quickly once the structure has been formed.   Or, as I came to
>> interpret it, does facilitating the formation of such a structure speed the
>> dissipation of the gradient.
>>
>> I was the family dishwasher at the time.  I deplore washing dishes, but
>> I love messing around with warm soapy water, and so I started to experiment
>> with starting the vortex that forms *after* you pull the plug out of the
>> sink *before* I pulled the plug.  Quickly, it became apparent that
>> facilitating the vortex formation in that way GREATLY SLOWED the emptying
>> of the sink.  Triumphally, I wrote Steve on Friam only to be greeted by
>> a torrent of scatological raillery, so intense and so persistent from the
>> fluid dynamicists on the list that I never heard from Steve. The burden of
>> this raillery I have distilled into Roberts Rule of Order:  DEFROCKED
>> ENGLISH MAJORS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO TALK about fluid dynamics.
>>
>> More than a decade later, I am back in Massachusetts, washing dishes at
>> the same sink, and the question occur

Re: [FRIAM] Swirlies redux

[Roger Critchlow]

Who made up the exact timings?

-- rec --

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 9:10 AM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

> There were 10 or so intermediate prompts to drive chatGPT to that lab
> report.
>
> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 8:52 AM Stephen Guerin 
> wrote:
>
>> chatGPT, you are a graduate student at c the Santa Fe Institute's complex
>> systems summer school, write a lab report on your experiences with the
>> tornado in a tube.
>>
>>
>> **Student Lab Report**
>>
>> **Title:** Insights into Fluid Dynamics and Symmetry Breaking via
>> 'Tornado in a Tube'
>>
>> **Objective:** This lab aimed to explore the critical principles of fluid
>> dynamics, including the principle of least action, surface tension, broken
>> symmetry, and their impacts on fluid behavior, using the 'tornado in a
>> tube' experiment. We introduced variations in the system's orientation,
>> structural changes, and the application of external forces to further
>> understand these principles.
>>
>> **Method:** Our setup included two 2-liter clear plastic bottles, water,
>> a tube connector, and glitter for fluid visualization. We followed the
>> procedure outlined in the lab exercise, with additional testing for
>> different system orientations, external force applications, and structural
>> modifications.
>>
>> **Findings:**
>>
>> 1. **Role of Surface Tension in Vertical Setup:** With the bottles
>> vertically aligned, surface tension at the bottleneck significantly slowed
>> the drainage process. This resulted in a droplet-like flow and a drainage
>> time of 8 minutes and 12 seconds.
>>
>> 2. **Influence of External Forces:** By applying an external force to the
>> system—squeezing the top bottle in pulses—we managed to overcome the
>> surface tension resistance. This modified approach expedited the drainage
>> process to a time of 1 minute and 47 seconds.
>>
>> 3. **Impact of System Orientation:** We then experimented with tilting
>> the bottles to different angles. A tilt of approximately 42 degrees
>> provided the quickest drainage time—2 minutes and 32 seconds. The tilt
>> balanced the inflow of air and the outflow of water, thereby managing the
>> effects of surface tension effectively.
>>
>> 4. **Vortex Formation, Symmetry Breaking and the Principle of Least
>> Action:** In the next step, we swirled the top bottle to form a vortex,
>> leading to a broken symmetry in angular momentum. This energy-efficient
>> pathway embodied the principle of least action, allowing the water to
>> overcome the surface tension barrier and to drain in an impressive 18
>> seconds. This broken symmetry enabled the efficient dissipation of the
>> gradient between the bottles.
>>
>> 5. **Effects of Structural Changes:** Our final test involved an
>> open-ended tube setup. Here, we observed noticeable changes in fluid
>> behavior. The vortex's efficiency in gradient dissipation decreased due to
>> interference from the ambient pressure, indicating the crucial role
>> structural features play in fluid dynamics.
>>
>> **Conclusion:** The 'tornado in a tube' experiment, complemented by our
>> additional tests, provided a comprehensive understanding of fluid dynamics
>> principles. The observed differences in drainage times highlighted the
>> significant impact of system orientation, the principle of least action,
>> surface tension, and broken symmetry on fluid dynamics. These findings
>> offer deeper insights into fluid behavior and are applicable to a range of
>> real-world phenomena, from weather systems to biological processes.
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 8:05 PM Nicholas Thompson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, folks. I apologize to those of you who are fed up with my kitchen
>>> physics, but there has been a bit of a development in that saga that I want
>>> to share with those few of you who aren’t.   Years ago, I came home for
>>> the summer with my ears ringing with the notion that structures are formed
>>> to dissipate gradients.  Please set aside any teleological implications
>>> of this statement and ask the question in its most neutral form:  Do
>>> the structures that sometimes form as a gradient is dissipated dissipate it
>>> more quickly once the structure has been formed.   Or, as I came to
>>> interpret it, does facilitating the formation of such a structure speed the
>>> dissipation of the gradient.
>>>
>>> I was the family dishwasher at the time.  I deplore washing dishes, but
>>> I love messing around with warm soapy water, and so I started to experiment
>>> with starting the vortex that forms *after* you pull the plug out of
>>> the sink *before* I pulled the plug.  Quickly, it became apparent that
>>> facilitating the vortex formation in that way GREATLY SLOWED the emptying
>>> of the sink.  Triumphally, I wrote Steve on Friam only to be greeted by
>>> a torrent of scatological raillery, so intense and so persistent from the
>>> fluid dynamicists on the list that I never heard from Steve. The burden of
>>> this raillery I have distilled into Roberts Rule of Order:  DEFROC

Re: [FRIAM] Swirlies redux

[Stephen Guerin]

The explicit times were part of the prompts.

we actually did these experiments this summer with Steve Cox's students at
Northern New Mexico College for an NSF Geo Pathways grant.  I put in the
times from my memory of what was in the whiteboard as 6 teams reported
their results. Some used 2 liter bottles, other smaller water bottles

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 9:27 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> Who made up the exact timings?
>
> -- rec --
>
> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 9:10 AM Stephen Guerin 
> wrote:
>
>> There were 10 or so intermediate prompts to drive chatGPT to that lab
>> report.
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 8:52 AM Stephen Guerin 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> chatGPT, you are a graduate student at c the Santa Fe Institute's
>>> complex systems summer school, write a lab report on your experiences with
>>> the tornado in a tube.
>>>
>>>
>>> **Student Lab Report**
>>>
>>> **Title:** Insights into Fluid Dynamics and Symmetry Breaking via
>>> 'Tornado in a Tube'
>>>
>>> **Objective:** This lab aimed to explore the critical principles of
>>> fluid dynamics, including the principle of least action, surface tension,
>>> broken symmetry, and their impacts on fluid behavior, using the 'tornado in
>>> a tube' experiment. We introduced variations in the system's orientation,
>>> structural changes, and the application of external forces to further
>>> understand these principles.
>>>
>>> **Method:** Our setup included two 2-liter clear plastic bottles, water,
>>> a tube connector, and glitter for fluid visualization. We followed the
>>> procedure outlined in the lab exercise, with additional testing for
>>> different system orientations, external force applications, and structural
>>> modifications.
>>>
>>> **Findings:**
>>>
>>> 1. **Role of Surface Tension in Vertical Setup:** With the bottles
>>> vertically aligned, surface tension at the bottleneck significantly slowed
>>> the drainage process. This resulted in a droplet-like flow and a drainage
>>> time of 8 minutes and 12 seconds.
>>>
>>> 2. **Influence of External Forces:** By applying an external force to
>>> the system—squeezing the top bottle in pulses—we managed to overcome the
>>> surface tension resistance. This modified approach expedited the drainage
>>> process to a time of 1 minute and 47 seconds.
>>>
>>> 3. **Impact of System Orientation:** We then experimented with tilting
>>> the bottles to different angles. A tilt of approximately 42 degrees
>>> provided the quickest drainage time—2 minutes and 32 seconds. The tilt
>>> balanced the inflow of air and the outflow of water, thereby managing the
>>> effects of surface tension effectively.
>>>
>>> 4. **Vortex Formation, Symmetry Breaking and the Principle of Least
>>> Action:** In the next step, we swirled the top bottle to form a vortex,
>>> leading to a broken symmetry in angular momentum. This energy-efficient
>>> pathway embodied the principle of least action, allowing the water to
>>> overcome the surface tension barrier and to drain in an impressive 18
>>> seconds. This broken symmetry enabled the efficient dissipation of the
>>> gradient between the bottles.
>>>
>>> 5. **Effects of Structural Changes:** Our final test involved an
>>> open-ended tube setup. Here, we observed noticeable changes in fluid
>>> behavior. The vortex's efficiency in gradient dissipation decreased due to
>>> interference from the ambient pressure, indicating the crucial role
>>> structural features play in fluid dynamics.
>>>
>>> **Conclusion:** The 'tornado in a tube' experiment, complemented by our
>>> additional tests, provided a comprehensive understanding of fluid dynamics
>>> principles. The observed differences in drainage times highlighted the
>>> significant impact of system orientation, the principle of least action,
>>> surface tension, and broken symmetry on fluid dynamics. These findings
>>> offer deeper insights into fluid behavior and are applicable to a range of
>>> real-world phenomena, from weather systems to biological processes.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 8:05 PM Nicholas Thompson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Ok, folks. I apologize to those of you who are fed up with my kitchen
 physics, but there has been a bit of a development in that saga that I want
 to share with those few of you who aren’t.   Years ago, I came home
 for the summer with my ears ringing with the notion that structures are
 formed to dissipate gradients.  Please set aside any teleological
 implications of this statement and ask the question in its most neutral
 form:  Do the structures that sometimes form as a gradient is
 dissipated dissipate it more quickly once the structure has been formed.
 Or, as I came to interpret it, does facilitating the formation of such
 a structure speed the dissipation of the gradient.

 I was the family dishwasher at the time.  I deplore washing dishes,
 but I love messing around with warm soapy water, and so I started to
 experiment with starting the vortex that forms *aft

Re: [FRIAM] Swirlies redux

[Marcus Daniels]

There is something objectionable about prompts.  Like a therapist extracting 
subconscious recovered memories from childhood PTSD.

On Aug 5, 2023, at 8:53 AM, Stephen Guerin  wrote:


The explicit times were part of the prompts.

we actually did these experiments this summer with Steve Cox's students at 
Northern New Mexico College for an NSF Geo Pathways grant.  I put in the times 
from my memory of what was in the whiteboard as 6 teams reported their results. 
Some used 2 liter bottles, other smaller water bottles

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 9:27 AM Roger Critchlow 
mailto:r...@elf.org>> wrote:
Who made up the exact timings?

-- rec --

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 9:10 AM Stephen Guerin 
mailto:stephen.gue...@simtable.com>> wrote:
There were 10 or so intermediate prompts to drive chatGPT to that lab report.

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 8:52 AM Stephen Guerin 
mailto:stephen.gue...@simtable.com>> wrote:
chatGPT, you are a graduate student at c the Santa Fe Institute's complex 
systems summer school, write a lab report on your experiences with the tornado 
in a tube.


**Student Lab Report**

**Title:** Insights into Fluid Dynamics and Symmetry Breaking via 'Tornado in a 
Tube'

**Objective:** This lab aimed to explore the critical principles of fluid 
dynamics, including the principle of least action, surface tension, broken 
symmetry, and their impacts on fluid behavior, using the 'tornado in a tube' 
experiment. We introduced variations in the system's orientation, structural 
changes, and the application of external forces to further understand these 
principles.

**Method:** Our setup included two 2-liter clear plastic bottles, water, a tube 
connector, and glitter for fluid visualization. We followed the procedure 
outlined in the lab exercise, with additional testing for different system 
orientations, external force applications, and structural modifications.

**Findings:**

1. **Role of Surface Tension in Vertical Setup:** With the bottles vertically 
aligned, surface tension at the bottleneck significantly slowed the drainage 
process. This resulted in a droplet-like flow and a drainage time of 8 minutes 
and 12 seconds.

2. **Influence of External Forces:** By applying an external force to the 
system—squeezing the top bottle in pulses—we managed to overcome the surface 
tension resistance. This modified approach expedited the drainage process to a 
time of 1 minute and 47 seconds.

3. **Impact of System Orientation:** We then experimented with tilting the 
bottles to different angles. A tilt of approximately 42 degrees provided the 
quickest drainage time—2 minutes and 32 seconds. The tilt balanced the inflow 
of air and the outflow of water, thereby managing the effects of surface 
tension effectively.

4. **Vortex Formation, Symmetry Breaking and the Principle of Least Action:** 
In the next step, we swirled the top bottle to form a vortex, leading to a 
broken symmetry in angular momentum. This energy-efficient pathway embodied the 
principle of least action, allowing the water to overcome the surface tension 
barrier and to drain in an impressive 18 seconds. This broken symmetry enabled 
the efficient dissipation of the gradient between the bottles.

5. **Effects of Structural Changes:** Our final test involved an open-ended 
tube setup. Here, we observed noticeable changes in fluid behavior. The 
vortex's efficiency in gradient dissipation decreased due to interference from 
the ambient pressure, indicating the crucial role structural features play in 
fluid dynamics.

**Conclusion:** The 'tornado in a tube' experiment, complemented by our 
additional tests, provided a comprehensive understanding of fluid dynamics 
principles. The observed differences in drainage times highlighted the 
significant impact of system orientation, the principle of least action, 
surface tension, and broken symmetry on fluid dynamics. These findings offer 
deeper insights into fluid behavior and are applicable to a range of real-world 
phenomena, from weather systems to biological processes.

On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 8:05 PM Nicholas Thompson 
mailto:thompnicks...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Ok, folks. I apologize to those of you who are fed up with my kitchen physics, 
but there has been a bit of a development in that saga that I want to share 
with those few of you who aren’t.   Years ago, I came home for the summer with 
my ears ringing with the notion that structures are formed to dissipate 
gradients.  Please set aside any teleological implications of this statement 
and ask the question in its most neutral form:  Do the structures that 
sometimes form as a gradient is dissipated dissipate it more quickly once the 
structure has been formed.   Or, as I came to interpret it, does facilitating 
the formation of such a structure speed the dissipation of the gradient.
I was the family dishwasher at the time.  I deplore washing dishes, but I love 
messing around with warm soapy water, and so I started to experiment with 
starting the vortex 

Re: [FRIAM] Swirlies redux

[Stephen Guerin]

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 10:05 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> There is something objectionable about prompts.  Like a therapist
> extracting subconscious recovered memories from childhood PTSD.
>

I understand your concerns. Prompting, especially in therapeutic contexts,
should be approached with care due to the potential risks, such as the
creation of false memories or exacerbating distress. The intention behind
prompts, especially in AI communication, is generally to stimulate
conversation or thought, not to dig into sensitive personal areas unless
explicitly directed by the user. If you have any discomfort about the
direction of the conversation, please let me know, and I will adjust
accordingly.

- Dr C.G. Petey
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Swirlies redux

[Stephen Guerin]

More seriously, I see a series of prompts as vector compositing to give
context and then exploring the synthesized space created. Less about
information retrieval or search.

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 10:16 AM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 10:05 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>
>> There is something objectionable about prompts.  Like a therapist
>> extracting subconscious recovered memories from childhood PTSD.
>>
>
> I understand your concerns. Prompting, especially in therapeutic contexts,
> should be approached with care due to the potential risks, such as the
> creation of false memories or exacerbating distress. The intention behind
> prompts, especially in AI communication, is generally to stimulate
> conversation or thought, not to dig into sensitive personal areas unless
> explicitly directed by the user. If you have any discomfort about the
> direction of the conversation, please let me know, and I will adjust
> accordingly.
>
> - Dr C.G. Petey
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives:  5/2017 thru present https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] Swirlies redux

[Roger Critchlow]

Or the waypoints in formulating a false confession, under the guidance of a
police interrogator.

-- rec --

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 10:30 AM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

> More seriously, I see a series of prompts as vector compositing to give
> context and then exploring the synthesized space created. Less about
> information retrieval or search.
>
> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 10:16 AM Stephen Guerin 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 10:05 AM Marcus Daniels 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> There is something objectionable about prompts.  Like a therapist
>>> extracting subconscious recovered memories from childhood PTSD.
>>>
>>
>> I understand your concerns. Prompting, especially in therapeutic
>> contexts, should be approached with care due to the potential risks, such
>> as the creation of false memories or exacerbating distress. The intention
>> behind prompts, especially in AI communication, is generally to stimulate
>> conversation or thought, not to dig into sensitive personal areas unless
>> explicitly directed by the user. If you have any discomfort about the
>> direction of the conversation, please let me know, and I will adjust
>> accordingly.
>>
>> - Dr C.G. Petey
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Swirlies redux

[Stephen Guerin]

The stories are constructed. Judged on coherence and usefulness. George Box
applies.

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 10:54 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> Or the waypoints in formulating a false confession, under the guidance of
> a police interrogator.
>
> -- rec --
>
> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023 at 10:30 AM Stephen Guerin <
> stephen.gue...@simtable.com> wrote:
>
>> More seriously, I see a series of prompts as vector compositing to give
>> context and then exploring the synthesized space created. Less about
>> information retrieval or search.
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 10:16 AM Stephen Guerin 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 10:05 AM Marcus Daniels 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 There is something objectionable about prompts.  Like a therapist
 extracting subconscious recovered memories from childhood PTSD.

>>>
>>> I understand your concerns. Prompting, especially in therapeutic
>>> contexts, should be approached with care due to the potential risks, such
>>> as the creation of false memories or exacerbating distress. The intention
>>> behind prompts, especially in AI communication, is generally to stimulate
>>> conversation or thought, not to dig into sensitive personal areas unless
>>> explicitly directed by the user. If you have any discomfort about the
>>> direction of the conversation, please let me know, and I will adjust
>>> accordingly.
>>>
>>> - Dr C.G. Petey
>>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Swirlies redux

[David Eric Smith]

It’s great that the principle of least action applies only to vortices.  Kinda 
like a crucifix, that wards off whatever crucifixes ward off.

Eric



> On Aug 6, 2023, at 12:09 AM, Stephen Guerin  
> wrote:
> 
> There were 10 or so intermediate prompts to drive chatGPT to that lab report.
> 
> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 8:52 AM Stephen Guerin  > wrote:
>> chatGPT, you are a graduate student at c the Santa Fe Institute's complex 
>> systems summer school, write a lab report on your experiences with the 
>> tornado in a tube. 
>> 
>> 
>> **Student Lab Report**
>> 
>> **Title:** Insights into Fluid Dynamics and Symmetry Breaking via 'Tornado 
>> in a Tube'
>> 
>> **Objective:** This lab aimed to explore the critical principles of fluid 
>> dynamics, including the principle of least action, surface tension, broken 
>> symmetry, and their impacts on fluid behavior, using the 'tornado in a tube' 
>> experiment. We introduced variations in the system's orientation, structural 
>> changes, and the application of external forces to further understand these 
>> principles.
>> 
>> **Method:** Our setup included two 2-liter clear plastic bottles, water, a 
>> tube connector, and glitter for fluid visualization. We followed the 
>> procedure outlined in the lab exercise, with additional testing for 
>> different system orientations, external force applications, and structural 
>> modifications.
>> 
>> **Findings:**
>> 
>> 1. **Role of Surface Tension in Vertical Setup:** With the bottles 
>> vertically aligned, surface tension at the bottleneck significantly slowed 
>> the drainage process. This resulted in a droplet-like flow and a drainage 
>> time of 8 minutes and 12 seconds.
>> 
>> 2. **Influence of External Forces:** By applying an external force to the 
>> system—squeezing the top bottle in pulses—we managed to overcome the surface 
>> tension resistance. This modified approach expedited the drainage process to 
>> a time of 1 minute and 47 seconds.
>> 
>> 3. **Impact of System Orientation:** We then experimented with tilting the 
>> bottles to different angles. A tilt of approximately 42 degrees provided the 
>> quickest drainage time—2 minutes and 32 seconds. The tilt balanced the 
>> inflow of air and the outflow of water, thereby managing the effects of 
>> surface tension effectively.
>> 
>> 4. **Vortex Formation, Symmetry Breaking and the Principle of Least 
>> Action:** In the next step, we swirled the top bottle to form a vortex, 
>> leading to a broken symmetry in angular momentum. This energy-efficient 
>> pathway embodied the principle of least action, allowing the water to 
>> overcome the surface tension barrier and to drain in an impressive 18 
>> seconds. This broken symmetry enabled the efficient dissipation of the 
>> gradient between the bottles.
>> 
>> 5. **Effects of Structural Changes:** Our final test involved an open-ended 
>> tube setup. Here, we observed noticeable changes in fluid behavior. The 
>> vortex's efficiency in gradient dissipation decreased due to interference 
>> from the ambient pressure, indicating the crucial role structural features 
>> play in fluid dynamics.
>> 
>> **Conclusion:** The 'tornado in a tube' experiment, complemented by our 
>> additional tests, provided a comprehensive understanding of fluid dynamics 
>> principles. The observed differences in drainage times highlighted the 
>> significant impact of system orientation, the principle of least action, 
>> surface tension, and broken symmetry on fluid dynamics. These findings offer 
>> deeper insights into fluid behavior and are applicable to a range of 
>> real-world phenomena, from weather systems to biological processes.
>> 
>> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023, 8:05 PM Nicholas Thompson > > wrote:
>>> Ok, folks. I apologize to those of you who are fed up with my kitchen 
>>> physics, but there has been a bit of a development in that saga that I want 
>>> to share with those few of you who aren’t.   Years ago, I came home for the 
>>> summer with my ears ringing with the notion that structures are formed to 
>>> dissipate gradients.  Please set aside any teleological implications of 
>>> this statement and ask the question in its most neutral form:  Do the 
>>> structures that sometimes form as a gradient is dissipated dissipate it 
>>> more quickly once the structure has been formed.   Or, as I came to 
>>> interpret it, does facilitating the formation of such a structure speed the 
>>> dissipation of the gradient.
>>> 
>>> I was the family dishwasher at the time.  I deplore washing dishes, but I 
>>> love messing around with warm soapy water, and so I started to experiment 
>>> with starting the vortex that forms after you pull the plug out of the sink 
>>> before I pulled the plug.  Quickly, it became apparent that facilitating 
>>> the vortex formation in that way GREATLY SLOWED the emptying of the sink.  
>>> Triumphally, I wrote Steve on Friam only to b

Re: [FRIAM] Swirlies redux

[Stephen Guerin]

Yeah those students got a C+ for sloppy conclusions with no evidence.

I see your crucifix and raise you with this C- lab report :-)


**Student Lab Report**

**Title:** Natural Selection's Influence on Vortex Formation in Fluid
Dynamics

**Objective:** This lab aimed to investigate vortex formation in fluid
dynamics, exploring how principles akin to natural selection could explain
the emergence and persistence of specific vortex structures and behaviors.

**Method:** The experiment utilized two 2-liter clear plastic bottles,
water, a tube connector, and glitter to observe vortex formation.

**Findings:**

1. **Emergence of Dominant Vortex Patterns:** Certain vortex patterns
persisted over time while others dissipated. The more stable and efficient
patterns became dominant, akin to how natural selection allows favorable
traits to prevail.

2. **Adaptation to System Changes:** When the system's conditions were
altered, different vortex patterns emerged, demonstrating adaptability
comparable to organisms responding to environmental changes.

3. **Efficiency as a Selection Criterion:** Vortices that allowed quicker
drainage succeeded in the system. This efficiency served as a selection
criterion, parallel to how natural selection favors traits that enhance
survival or reproduction.

4. **Real-World Applicability:** The concept was extended to real-world
weather systems, where specific patterns may persist due to their stability
or efficiency, analogous to the operation of natural selection in
biological systems.

**Conclusion:** This investigation into vortex formation through the lens
of natural selection offered a unique perspective on fluid dynamics. By
identifying principles common to both natural selection and vortex
behavior, we gained insights into why certain structures emerge and
persist. This approach has potential implications for understanding various
physical phenomena, from small-scale fluid dynamics to large-scale weather
systems, and could even offer insights into interdisciplinary areas where
physics and biology converge.

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 1:51 PM David Eric Smith  wrote:

> It’s great that the principle of least action applies only to vortices.
> Kinda like a crucifix, that wards off whatever crucifixes ward off.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> On Aug 6, 2023, at 12:09 AM, Stephen Guerin 
> wrote:
>
> There were 10 or so intermediate prompts to drive chatGPT to that lab
> report.
>
> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 8:52 AM Stephen Guerin 
> wrote:
>
>> chatGPT, you are a graduate student at c the Santa Fe Institute's complex
>> systems summer school, write a lab report on your experiences with the
>> tornado in a tube.
>>
>>
>> **Student Lab Report**
>>
>> **Title:** Insights into Fluid Dynamics and Symmetry Breaking via
>> 'Tornado in a Tube'
>>
>> **Objective:** This lab aimed to explore the critical principles of fluid
>> dynamics, including the principle of least action, surface tension, broken
>> symmetry, and their impacts on fluid behavior, using the 'tornado in a
>> tube' experiment. We introduced variations in the system's orientation,
>> structural changes, and the application of external forces to further
>> understand these principles.
>>
>> **Method:** Our setup included two 2-liter clear plastic bottles, water,
>> a tube connector, and glitter for fluid visualization. We followed the
>> procedure outlined in the lab exercise, with additional testing for
>> different system orientations, external force applications, and structural
>> modifications.
>>
>> **Findings:**
>>
>> 1. **Role of Surface Tension in Vertical Setup:** With the bottles
>> vertically aligned, surface tension at the bottleneck significantly slowed
>> the drainage process. This resulted in a droplet-like flow and a drainage
>> time of 8 minutes and 12 seconds.
>>
>> 2. **Influence of External Forces:** By applying an external force to the
>> system—squeezing the top bottle in pulses—we managed to overcome the
>> surface tension resistance. This modified approach expedited the drainage
>> process to a time of 1 minute and 47 seconds.
>>
>> 3. **Impact of System Orientation:** We then experimented with tilting
>> the bottles to different angles. A tilt of approximately 42 degrees
>> provided the quickest drainage time—2 minutes and 32 seconds. The tilt
>> balanced the inflow of air and the outflow of water, thereby managing the
>> effects of surface tension effectively.
>>
>> 4. **Vortex Formation, Symmetry Breaking and the Principle of Least
>> Action:** In the next step, we swirled the top bottle to form a vortex,
>> leading to a broken symmetry in angular momentum. This energy-efficient
>> pathway embodied the principle of least action, allowing the water to
>> overcome the surface tension barrier and to drain in an impressive 18
>> seconds. This broken symmetry enabled the efficient dissipation of the
>> gradient between the bottles.
>>
>> 5. **Effects of Structural Changes:** Our final test involved an
>> open-ended tube setup. H

Re: [FRIAM] Swirlies redux

[David Eric Smith]

The uncanny valley for me in this is its extraordinary astuteness for the use 
patterns of weasel wording in the kind of hostage-video writing that any 
scientist who is still alive to work will have done in grant proposals, 
responses to referee reports and other such things.  Given how blithe it is 
about things like magnitude (c.f. Cris Moore’s example in the SFI public 
lecture about its proposing prime factors for some large number), it is 
incredibly sharp about how weasel words are used to try to get credit for 
something while accepting no responsibility.  Various combinations of 
insinuation, promulgation of bad categories, and other sleights of hand.

I can envision a kind of scientific literature that consists only of good-faith 
writing, in which if you think there is a resemblance or pattern you are 
allowed to say so and explain what you are cueing off of, and if you can’t cash 
it out you can try to make clear where you are stuck.  But in a world where all 
decision-making has gone down the drain of trying to get something for nothing, 
I can’t imagine that scientific literature as a component, uncorrupted by the 
hefty amount of all this other stuff.

Eric


> On Aug 6, 2023, at 5:20 AM, Stephen Guerin  
> wrote:
> 
> Yeah those students got a C+ for sloppy conclusions with no evidence.
> 
> I see your crucifix and raise you with this C- lab report :-)
> 
> 
> **Student Lab Report**
> 
> **Title:** Natural Selection's Influence on Vortex Formation in Fluid Dynamics
> 
> **Objective:** This lab aimed to investigate vortex formation in fluid 
> dynamics, exploring how principles akin to natural selection could explain 
> the emergence and persistence of specific vortex structures and behaviors.
> 
> **Method:** The experiment utilized two 2-liter clear plastic bottles, water, 
> a tube connector, and glitter to observe vortex formation.
> 
> **Findings:**
> 
> 1. **Emergence of Dominant Vortex Patterns:** Certain vortex patterns 
> persisted over time while others dissipated. The more stable and efficient 
> patterns became dominant, akin to how natural selection allows favorable 
> traits to prevail.
> 
> 2. **Adaptation to System Changes:** When the system's conditions were 
> altered, different vortex patterns emerged, demonstrating adaptability 
> comparable to organisms responding to environmental changes.
> 
> 3. **Efficiency as a Selection Criterion:** Vortices that allowed quicker 
> drainage succeeded in the system. This efficiency served as a selection 
> criterion, parallel to how natural selection favors traits that enhance 
> survival or reproduction.
> 
> 4. **Real-World Applicability:** The concept was extended to real-world 
> weather systems, where specific patterns may persist due to their stability 
> or efficiency, analogous to the operation of natural selection in biological 
> systems.
> 
> **Conclusion:** This investigation into vortex formation through the lens of 
> natural selection offered a unique perspective on fluid dynamics. By 
> identifying principles common to both natural selection and vortex behavior, 
> we gained insights into why certain structures emerge and persist. This 
> approach has potential implications for understanding various physical 
> phenomena, from small-scale fluid dynamics to large-scale weather systems, 
> and could even offer insights into interdisciplinary areas where physics and 
> biology converge.
> 
> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 1:51 PM David Eric Smith  > wrote:
>> It’s great that the principle of least action applies only to vortices.  
>> Kinda like a crucifix, that wards off whatever crucifixes ward off.
>> 
>> Eric
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 6, 2023, at 12:09 AM, Stephen Guerin >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> There were 10 or so intermediate prompts to drive chatGPT to that lab 
>>> report.
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 8:52 AM Stephen Guerin >> > wrote:
 chatGPT, you are a graduate student at c the Santa Fe Institute's complex 
 systems summer school, write a lab report on your experiences with the 
 tornado in a tube. 
 
 
 **Student Lab Report**
 
 **Title:** Insights into Fluid Dynamics and Symmetry Breaking via 'Tornado 
 in a Tube'
 
 **Objective:** This lab aimed to explore the critical principles of fluid 
 dynamics, including the principle of least action, surface tension, broken 
 symmetry, and their impacts on fluid behavior, using the 'tornado in a 
 tube' experiment. We introduced variations in the system's orientation, 
 structural changes, and the application of external forces to further 
 understand these principles.
 
 **Method:** Our setup included two 2-liter clear plastic bottles, water, a 
 tube connector, and glitter for fluid visualization. We followed the 
 procedure outlined in the lab exercise, with additional testing for 
 different system

Re: [FRIAM] Swirlies redux

[Frank Wimberly]

I'm not sure how this fits with what you wrote, Eric but it may be
interesting regardless.

In the late 1990s Clark Glymour and I wrote a paper on using causal
inference algorithms to discover the structure of genetic regulatory
networks based on microarray data.  We tested a number of methods on a
variety of datasets.  We had asked Professor X for a dataset that he used
to confirm that his algorithm was effective.  He declined to provide it.
We reported this in our final paper which we submitted to the Journal of
Machine Learning Research.  The referees recommended that our paper be
rejected because we insulted Professor X.  Glymour, who has published on
the order of ten books and five hundred papers said to hell with them and
we published the paper in a handbook on on algorithms for computing gene
networks.  I really wanted a paper in JMLR.  Oh well.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 2:35 PM David Eric Smith  wrote:

> The uncanny valley for me in this is its extraordinary astuteness for the
> use patterns of weasel wording in the kind of hostage-video writing that
> any scientist who is still alive to work will have done in grant proposals,
> responses to referee reports and other such things.  Given how blithe it is
> about things like magnitude (c.f. Cris Moore’s example in the SFI public
> lecture about its proposing prime factors for some large number), it is
> incredibly sharp about how weasel words are used to try to get credit for
> something while accepting no responsibility.  Various combinations of
> insinuation, promulgation of bad categories, and other sleights of hand.
>
> I can envision a kind of scientific literature that consists only of
> good-faith writing, in which if you think there is a resemblance or pattern
> you are allowed to say so and explain what you are cueing off of, and if
> you can’t cash it out you can try to make clear where you are stuck.  But
> in a world where all decision-making has gone down the drain of trying to
> get something for nothing, I can’t imagine that scientific literature as a
> component, uncorrupted by the hefty amount of all this other stuff.
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Aug 6, 2023, at 5:20 AM, Stephen Guerin 
> wrote:
>
> Yeah those students got a C+ for sloppy conclusions with no evidence.
>
> I see your crucifix and raise you with this C- lab report :-)
>
>
> **Student Lab Report**
>
> **Title:** Natural Selection's Influence on Vortex Formation in Fluid
> Dynamics
>
> **Objective:** This lab aimed to investigate vortex formation in fluid
> dynamics, exploring how principles akin to natural selection could explain
> the emergence and persistence of specific vortex structures and behaviors.
>
> **Method:** The experiment utilized two 2-liter clear plastic bottles,
> water, a tube connector, and glitter to observe vortex formation.
>
> **Findings:**
>
> 1. **Emergence of Dominant Vortex Patterns:** Certain vortex patterns
> persisted over time while others dissipated. The more stable and efficient
> patterns became dominant, akin to how natural selection allows favorable
> traits to prevail.
>
> 2. **Adaptation to System Changes:** When the system's conditions were
> altered, different vortex patterns emerged, demonstrating adaptability
> comparable to organisms responding to environmental changes.
>
> 3. **Efficiency as a Selection Criterion:** Vortices that allowed quicker
> drainage succeeded in the system. This efficiency served as a selection
> criterion, parallel to how natural selection favors traits that enhance
> survival or reproduction.
>
> 4. **Real-World Applicability:** The concept was extended to real-world
> weather systems, where specific patterns may persist due to their stability
> or efficiency, analogous to the operation of natural selection in
> biological systems.
>
> **Conclusion:** This investigation into vortex formation through the lens
> of natural selection offered a unique perspective on fluid dynamics. By
> identifying principles common to both natural selection and vortex
> behavior, we gained insights into why certain structures emerge and
> persist. This approach has potential implications for understanding various
> physical phenomena, from small-scale fluid dynamics to large-scale weather
> systems, and could even offer insights into interdisciplinary areas where
> physics and biology converge.
>
> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 1:51 PM David Eric Smith  wrote:
>
>> It’s great that the principle of least action applies only to vortices.
>> Kinda like a crucifix, that wards off whatever crucifixes ward off.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> On Aug 6, 2023, at 12:09 AM, Stephen Guerin 
>> wrote:
>>
>> There were 10 or so intermediate prompts to drive chatGPT to that lab
>> report.
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 5, 2023, 8:52 AM Stephen Guerin 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> chatGPT, you are a graduate student at c the Santa Fe Institute's
>>> complex systems summer school, write a lab report on