Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: The DEL hilarity continues

[Gillian Densmore]

@Ray  I'd think it's problematic to upgrade a CPU. Where as cards are meant
to give a little more life.

The budget systems guides sugest 8 gigs of ram. In my experience that isn't
enough. 16 gigs would likely give way more room for Winderz (or Linux)

A SSD drive might also add a little more pep.

A hardy workhorse Hard drive with external backup would also likely be
something I'd want to have

A midrange graphics card definatly.


As a pragmatist I find it perplexing to get a 8Gb graphics card.

I can see getting a 2gig or possible even 4gig graphics card.  Historically
that basicaly ment go to chipmerchant.com  look up midrange Geforce  and 2x
check reviews and what's compatible.

ATI(now AMD) are no slouch. Though for some reason they have a history of
quirikeness,  In my epxerience I've needed to make some small adjustments
to display and catalysts configuration to get a little pep.
I have no clue why.



On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 2:09 PM, Parks, Raymond  wrote:

> I'm not sure if anyone knows yet, but Win10 (MS Spyware) should upgrade
> for free.  Give Microsoft's past and current emphasis on licensing,
> particularly in Enterprise systems, I suspect that the free upgrades will
> cease in the future and a new version of Windows will come out, requiring
> one buy it (and the hardware it drives).
>
> At work, I have an MSDN subscription ($2K per year but there are cheaper)
> that gives me access to every MS product from legacy to absolutely current.
>
> At home, I make do with whatever came with my laptop.
>
> When I built my own systems, they ran Slackware, Mandrake Linux (now
> Mandriva), and Debian.  If I were to choose a Linux distro for a new
> system, I would probably use Slackware or I might get out of the Linux
> world and use a BSD.
>
> If you're going to go with Win10 - the Pro version ($139 vs $99 for home
> on NewEgg) will give you more control over updates.  I'd consider Win8.1 or
> Win7 (still available) rather than mess with the spyware.  Amazon prices
> seem slightly lower for Pro and higher for Win7 Home and lower for Win8
> Home.
>
>   Upgrading hardware can be a problem but you can usually limit the
> problem.  The biggest difficult is with motherboards/CPUs.  Each family of
> CPUs has a different socket and the motherboards have different chipsets to
> support each family of CPUs.  That said, you can pick a socket and chipset
> that is the most current and it will probably be supported for some time to
> come.  The socket and chipset for the Intel Haswell chips is the same as at
> least a couple of generations of CPU previous.  AMD's sockets have been the
> same for several years although the chipsets have changed.  If you get an
> LGA1151 socket motherboard (Skylake), right now, it will probably last for
> several of Intel's Tick-Tock cycles.
>
>   The chipset and motherboard also are limited to supporting features that
> were current at the time of purchase or can be upgraded by firmware.  For
> example, USB 2.0 was the standard a few years ago and the changes to USB3.0
> and USB3.1 have been hardware changes that firmware updates can't achieve.
> If you bought an LGA1150 (good up through I7-5775) motherboard before
> USB3.0 came out, you would be stuck with only that - unless you added a
> third-party board (usually fits in a PCI slot).  Disk drives and even SSDs
> have used SATA for a long time, but there have been improvements (we're
> currently up to SATA 3, I think).  However, the newest motherboards support
> M.2 and PCIe SSDs.  In most cases, the difference is one of performance and
> ordinary users won't care.
>
>   To answer your specific questions -
>
> faster CPU upgrade is usually doable with a firmware upgrade (buy an
> LGA1151 socket board if you want future-proofing)
> RAM upgrades in size of ram cards (i.e. switching from 4GB to 8GB) are
> mostly limited by the motherboard firmware and vendors usually make it
> possible
> new GPU is usually doable - these have been PCI for some time - but you
> may not get the full benefit of the performance improvement (i.e. a PCI-16
> GPU can use a PCI-8 slot but not as fast)
>
> Ray Parks
> Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
> V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
> NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
> SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)
>
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2015, at 5:51 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>
> Just looked at the systems built for between $400-$800.
> http://pcpartpicker.com/guide/#X=39404,82077=d3=1
> I sorted it by date because I found that several parts were no longer
> available when sorting by popularity.
>
> Also, the OS was $90 generally for Windows 8.x, and often left off the
> overall price. Linux and OSX have free OS's nowadays, so was a bit
> surprised at that added cost. Also the shipping sometimes said Free but now
> is $4.00.
>
> The Tech Report http://techreport.com/review/29012/system-guide-current
> was superb, 

Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: The DEL hilarity continues

[Parks, Raymond]

On Dec 22, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:

> @Ray  I'd think it's problematic to upgrade a CPU. Where as cards are meant 
> to give a little more life.

Not necessarily.  The X79 chipset boards with LGA2011 sockets, first released 
in 201, supported Sandy Bridge-E/EP and Ivy Bridge-E/EP processors until the 
release of the Ivy Bridge E/EX in 2014.  The LGA-1155 sockets and chipsets 
supported Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge.  Haswell and Broadwell moved the voltage 
regulator onto the chip which necessitated the change to LGA-1150, while 
Skylake has shed the VRM and has the new LGA1151 (as will the future Kaby 
Lake).  Basically, you can be moderately confident that your motherboard will 
last through an entire Tick-Tock cycle (two generations of Intel CPUs).

> 
> The budget systems guides sugest 8 gigs of ram. In my experience that isn't 
> enough. 16 gigs would likely give way more room for Winderz (or Linux)

That depends on what you're doing.  Tech Report's builds are aimed at gaming 
enthusiasts, so the budget version is meant for low-end gaming.  That said, you 
should be able to run games that are new and not optimized like "ARK: Survival 
Evolved" on an 8GB memory system.  You might have trouble with single player 
mode that runs the game client and server on the local system - I have that 
problem so I use a remote server and just run the client on my 6GB laptop.

> A SSD drive might also add a little more pep.

The TR folks allow that some people can't afford an SSD (and are stuck with a 
1TB 7200rpm drive) but they recommend 250GB SSDs which start at only $25 more.

> A hardy workhorse Hard drive with external backup would also likely be 
> something I'd want to have

The TR guide suggests have 2 to 4GB spinning platter drives for mass storage, 
either singly or in RAID.

TR split their system guide into three parts this year.  Backup systems are in 
the peripheral picks and one of the best ones is an external socket device that 
can accept both sizes of SATA drives.  That lets you use your old, too-small, 
hard drives as backup, if they still have acceptable bad block counts.

> A midrange graphics card definatly.
> 
> 
> As a pragmatist I find it perplexing to get a 8Gb graphics card.

Quad or UHD (3840x2160) displays are the driver for more graphics memory.  If 
your monitor is a simple 1080P HD, then you don't need that amount of memory.

> I can see getting a 2gig or possible even 4gig graphics card.  Historically 
> that basicaly ment go to chipmerchant.com  look up midrange Geforce  and 2x 
> check reviews and what's compatible.

It all depends on your monitor and the detail settings of your games.

> ATI(now AMD) are no slouch. Though for some reason they have a history of 
> quirikeness,  In my epxerience I've needed to make some small adjustments to 
> display and catalysts configuration to get a little pep.
> I have no clue why. 

They're still problematic.  When they work, they work well, but sometimes they 
drive me crazy.  For a while, there were certain capabilities in the ATI/AMD 
GPUs that were much better than the Invidia cards for cryptographic table 
building and brute-forcing.  The Bitcoin people went nuts over the AMD GPUs.

smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature

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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: The DEL hilarity continues

[Gillian Densmore]

@Ray Yeah for it's age my monitor has aged fairly well (oddly). It works
realy well at 1120 by I don't recall what.possibly 1020.  I suspect what
ever  I get  will  both be awsome and have it's own small quirks will
probably be an enjoyable improvement over my now infamous del ^_^

I tried my hand at bitoins and Altcoins, I found a place that could somehow
convert altcoins to bitcoin I have no idea how.  Nova Mining Company I
think they were called.
I think I made about 5dollar or so over a week casually doing it, and tried
some primecoin place and made about 50cents from it.

Sufficed to say say based on experience this  is realy fun if that's the
word and I'm famous for not being sure what the right word might be many
times. Exciting and inspiring come to mind for sure.

I generally keep my graphics around the mid range, while I want  games to
look nice, have awsome gameplay I also want want my hardware to be able to
provide enough pep so as it's fluid as well.



On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Parks, Raymond  wrote:

>
> On Dec 22, 2015, at 3:45 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>
> @Ray  I'd think it's problematic to upgrade a CPU. Where as cards are
> meant to give a little more life.
>
>
> Not necessarily.  The X79 chipset boards with LGA2011 sockets, first
> released in 201, supported Sandy Bridge-E/EP and Ivy Bridge-E/EP processors
> until the release of the Ivy Bridge E/EX in 2014.  The LGA-1155 sockets and
> chipsets supported Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge.  Haswell and Broadwell
> moved the voltage regulator onto the chip which necessitated the change to
> LGA-1150, while Skylake has shed the VRM and has the new LGA1151 (as will
> the future Kaby Lake).  Basically, you can be moderately confident that
> your motherboard will last through an entire Tick-Tock cycle (two
> generations of Intel CPUs).
>
>
> The budget systems guides sugest 8 gigs of ram. In my experience that
> isn't enough. 16 gigs would likely give way more room for Winderz (or Linux)
>
>
> That depends on what you're doing.  Tech Report's builds are aimed at
> gaming enthusiasts, so the budget version is meant for low-end gaming.
> That said, you should be able to run games that are new and not optimized
> like "ARK: Survival Evolved" on an 8GB memory system.  You might have
> trouble with single player mode that runs the game client and server on the
> local system - I have that problem so I use a remote server and just run
> the client on my 6GB laptop.
>
> A SSD drive might also add a little more pep.
>
>
> The TR folks allow that some people can't afford an SSD (and are stuck
> with a 1TB 7200rpm drive) but they recommend 250GB SSDs which start at only
> $25 more.
>
> A hardy workhorse Hard drive with external backup would also likely be
> something I'd want to have
>
>
> The TR guide suggests have 2 to 4GB spinning platter drives for mass
> storage, either singly or in RAID.
>
> TR split their system guide into three parts this year.  Backup systems
> are in the peripheral picks and one of the best ones is an external socket
> device that can accept both sizes of SATA drives.  That lets you use your
> old, too-small, hard drives as backup, if they still have acceptable bad
> block counts.
>
> A midrange graphics card definatly.
>
>
> As a pragmatist I find it perplexing to get a 8Gb graphics card.
>
>
> Quad or UHD (3840x2160) displays are the driver for more graphics memory.
> If your monitor is a simple 1080P HD, then you don't need that amount of
> memory.
>
> I can see getting a 2gig or possible even 4gig graphics card.
> Historically that basicaly ment go to chipmerchant.com  look up midrange
> Geforce  and 2x check reviews and what's compatible.
>
>
> It all depends on your monitor and the detail settings of your games.
>
> ATI(now AMD) are no slouch. Though for some reason they have a history of
> quirikeness,  In my epxerience I've needed to make some small adjustments
> to display and catalysts configuration to get a little pep.
> I have no clue why.
>
>
> They're still problematic.  When they work, they work well, but sometimes
> they drive me crazy.  For a while, there were certain capabilities in the
> ATI/AMD GPUs that were much better than the Invidia cards for cryptographic
> table building and brute-forcing.  The Bitcoin people went nuts over the
> AMD GPUs.
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: The DEL hilarity continues

[Parks, Raymond]

I'm not sure if anyone knows yet, but Win10 (MS Spyware) should upgrade for 
free.  Give Microsoft's past and current emphasis on licensing, particularly in 
Enterprise systems, I suspect that the free upgrades will cease in the future 
and a new version of Windows will come out, requiring one buy it (and the 
hardware it drives).

At work, I have an MSDN subscription ($2K per year but there are cheaper) that 
gives me access to every MS product from legacy to absolutely current.

At home, I make do with whatever came with my laptop.

When I built my own systems, they ran Slackware, Mandrake Linux (now Mandriva), 
and Debian.  If I were to choose a Linux distro for a new system, I would 
probably use Slackware or I might get out of the Linux world and use a BSD.

If you're going to go with Win10 - the Pro version ($139 vs $99 for home on 
NewEgg) will give you more control over updates.  I'd consider Win8.1 or Win7 
(still available) rather than mess with the spyware.  Amazon prices seem 
slightly lower for Pro and higher for Win7 Home and lower for Win8 Home.

  Upgrading hardware can be a problem but you can usually limit the problem.  
The biggest difficult is with motherboards/CPUs.  Each family of CPUs has a 
different socket and the motherboards have different chipsets to support each 
family of CPUs.  That said, you can pick a socket and chipset that is the most 
current and it will probably be supported for some time to come.  The socket 
and chipset for the Intel Haswell chips is the same as at least a couple of 
generations of CPU previous.  AMD's sockets have been the same for several 
years although the chipsets have changed.  If you get an LGA1151 socket 
motherboard (Skylake), right now, it will probably last for several of Intel's 
Tick-Tock cycles.

  The chipset and motherboard also are limited to supporting features that were 
current at the time of purchase or can be upgraded by firmware.  For example, 
USB 2.0 was the standard a few years ago and the changes to USB3.0 and USB3.1 
have been hardware changes that firmware updates can't achieve.  If you bought 
an LGA1150 (good up through I7-5775) motherboard before USB3.0 came out, you 
would be stuck with only that - unless you added a third-party board (usually 
fits in a PCI slot).  Disk drives and even SSDs have used SATA for a long time, 
but there have been improvements (we're currently up to SATA 3, I think).  
However, the newest motherboards support M.2 and PCIe SSDs.  In most cases, the 
difference is one of performance and ordinary users won't care.

  To answer your specific questions -

faster CPU upgrade is usually doable with a firmware upgrade (buy an 
LGA1151 socket board if you want future-proofing)
RAM upgrades in size of ram cards (i.e. switching from 4GB to 8GB) are 
mostly limited by the motherboard firmware and vendors usually make it possible
new GPU is usually doable - these have been PCI for some time - but you 
may not get the full benefit of the performance improvement (i.e. a PCI-16 GPU 
can use a PCI-8 slot but not as fast)

Ray Parks
Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)



On Dec 21, 2015, at 5:51 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:

> Just looked at the systems built for between $400-$800.
> http://pcpartpicker.com/guide/#X=39404,82077=d3=1
> I sorted it by date because I found that several parts were no longer 
> available when sorting by popularity.
> 
> Also, the OS was $90 generally for Windows 8.x, and often left off the 
> overall price. Linux and OSX have free OS's nowadays, so was a bit surprised 
> at that added cost. Also the shipping sometimes said Free but now is $4.00.
> 
> The Tech Report http://techreport.com/review/29012/system-guide-current was 
> superb, great way to learn how to build a system with good explanations on 
> each part of the builds.
> 
> I think if I were building a system, I'd start with their budget system and 
> upgrade a few parts.
> 
> So I'm left with a few questions:
> - Once you buy Windows, do you get upgrades for free?
> - How interoperable are the pieces within a given form factor? I.e. if in 3 
> years I can afford to amp it up a bit, should it be easy to upgrade to a 
> faster CPU? More RAM?, A new graphics card (assuming I don't have an 
> integrated one)? 
> 
> My guess that's asking for a lot but possibly keeping within a given family 
> of devices might let me be more future-proof.
> 
>-- Owen
> 
> On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Parks, Raymond  wrote:
> Answers in-line below
> 
> Ray Parks
> Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
> V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
> NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
> SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 21, 

Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: The DEL hilarity continues

[Gillian Densmore]

What (if any) realistic benifits are there to building a computer yourself
these days?


 And does anyone have opinions or experience with Cybertron(PC)? I found
them on a random google search.

One in particular here people seem fairly content with:

http://www.amazon.com/CybertronPC-Hellion-TGM1213B-FX-6300-GeForce/dp/B00D1KWS3I


One thing that stands out is they seem to use regular parts. Some of those
seem to get  somewhat ok  reviews. A few people have said it'd be a good
idea to update the power supply.

when compared to  following guides on http://pcpartpicker.com/  making sure
I stick to systems that are around 700-800 dollars.

I more or less come up with simillar parts, and I end up spending as much
of or even way  more.

 I suspect in part because Winderz 10 is around 130-200 dollars, and intel
chips are pretty expensive.

Anecdotally years ago I couldn't tell the difference from a intel vs AMD
chip in real world day to day and gaming.


What's others peoples experience and opinions?









On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 11:37 AM, Parks, Raymond  wrote:

> This.  I just got to this thread (still active) today because I was out
> ill, but my next personal desktop will be built by me consulting with the
> Tech Report System Guide <
> http://techreport.com/review/29012/system-guide-current>.  For Gillian's
> stated purpose, I would recommend something along the line of "The Sweet
> Spot" on page 8 of the article.  It is a gaming oriented build, so the GPU
> might be overkill.
>
> Ray Parks
> Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
> V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
> NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
> SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)
>
>
>
> On Dec 13, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
>
> From what you’ve said earlier, isn’t your computer like 9 years old?
> In that case, most everything is probably so out of date that it might
> be best to just give it to some geek that likes tinkering with old
> stuff. If it were me, I would build one from scratch. Surely some nice
> geeky guy or gal would help you, and you would learn a lot in the
> process. Of course, that begs the question of what OS to put on it. MS
> gives system builders good deals on OEM versions of their OS. Or, see
> how you get along for a while with purely open source, i.e. Linux,
> OpenOffice/LibreOffice. My $.02, probably worth about that much.
>
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Gillian Densmore
>  wrote:
>
> Ray I think you called it  that damn thing crashed yesterday.
>
>
> Crashed (noun and adjective):
>
> Common accurence with windwos.  Symptoms: Unresponsive programs, a blue
>
> colored screen,  mouse and keybored ignored, and otherwise describing doom.
>
>
>
> Now it won't even boot.
>
>
> As I am now in the market for a new desktop because I've put about at least
>
> 300 into the DEL (see also doom, crash, and crappy computers, highblood
>
> preasure, and general dystopic state with a yen to crush the world)
>
>
> I'm disinclined to much more, if any into it.
>
>
> I'd prefer a computer that rocks.  For me that meens can play games, kick
>
> ass parts so as it's not in the damn shop costing as much or more than I
>
> initially payed for.
>
> Based on my now soured taste twards this dell  and having replaced the hard
>
> drive 3 times, It'd be preferable to have one with two  seperate hardrives
>
> so as backup is simple and easy.
>
>
>
> I saw a green tank one Amazon for 900. (with free prime shipping) from
>
> CyberPowerPC with 16gigs of ram and Nvidia of some sort that sported 2 gigs
>
> of ram
>
>
>
> In in the interest of transparency: I might prefer to replace this DEL
>
> because it, or windows iritiates me. I'd prefer to Keep the Hard drive it
>
> has (If it's still good)
>
> It's power converter and motivators are bad then that's likely at least 30,
>
> and it doesn't feel like it's aging gracefully. It might make a good little
>
> linux box, provided I can put in a new hard drive
>
>
>
> What others do if they were in my place?
>
>
> New computer? (newer parts meen less wear and tear and other issues)
>
>
> Replace the failed part (god knows where to even get one in santafe)?
>
>
> Both? (Might buy a small amount of time till new computer) :
>
>
> What kind of computer would people recomend? I've used and enjoyed Apples
> in
>
> the past. If there's a PC brand that rocks by all meens sugest some.
>
>
> 
>
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 

Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: The DEL hilarity continues

[Gary Schiltz]

Exactly the geeky guy I had in mind :-)

Another nice thing about building the system from scratch is that you get
to decide which parts are important enough to you to spend a lot of money
on. Since I’m not a gamer, I’d just use a motherboard with built-in
graphics (maybe most of them do) and see if it was acceptable, and spend
the money on a better display. Then, at some later point, it’s easy enough
to add on a dedicated one.

Also, getting Amazon Prime seems like a good deal to get free fast shipping
on components.

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Parks, Raymond  wrote:

> This.  I just got to this thread (still active) today because I was out
> ill, but my next personal desktop will be built by me consulting with the
> Tech Report System Guide <
> http://techreport.com/review/29012/system-guide-current>.  For Gillian's
> stated purpose, I would recommend something along the line of "The Sweet
> Spot" on page 8 of the article.  It is a gaming oriented build, so the GPU
> might be overkill.
>
> Ray Parks
> Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
> V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
> NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
> SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)
>
>
>
> On Dec 13, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
>
> From what you’ve said earlier, isn’t your computer like 9 years old?
> In that case, most everything is probably so out of date that it might
> be best to just give it to some geek that likes tinkering with old
> stuff. If it were me, I would build one from scratch. Surely some nice
> geeky guy or gal would help you, and you would learn a lot in the
> process. Of course, that begs the question of what OS to put on it. MS
> gives system builders good deals on OEM versions of their OS. Or, see
> how you get along for a while with purely open source, i.e. Linux,
> OpenOffice/LibreOffice. My $.02, probably worth about that much.
>
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Gillian Densmore
>  wrote:
>
> Ray I think you called it  that damn thing crashed yesterday.
>
>
> Crashed (noun and adjective):
>
> Common accurence with windwos.  Symptoms: Unresponsive programs, a blue
>
> colored screen,  mouse and keybored ignored, and otherwise describing doom.
>
>
>
> Now it won't even boot.
>
>
> As I am now in the market for a new desktop because I've put about at least
>
> 300 into the DEL (see also doom, crash, and crappy computers, highblood
>
> preasure, and general dystopic state with a yen to crush the world)
>
>
> I'm disinclined to much more, if any into it.
>
>
> I'd prefer a computer that rocks.  For me that meens can play games, kick
>
> ass parts so as it's not in the damn shop costing as much or more than I
>
> initially payed for.
>
> Based on my now soured taste twards this dell  and having replaced the hard
>
> drive 3 times, It'd be preferable to have one with two  seperate hardrives
>
> so as backup is simple and easy.
>
>
>
> I saw a green tank one Amazon for 900. (with free prime shipping) from
>
> CyberPowerPC with 16gigs of ram and Nvidia of some sort that sported 2 gigs
>
> of ram
>
>
>
> In in the interest of transparency: I might prefer to replace this DEL
>
> because it, or windows iritiates me. I'd prefer to Keep the Hard drive it
>
> has (If it's still good)
>
> It's power converter and motivators are bad then that's likely at least 30,
>
> and it doesn't feel like it's aging gracefully. It might make a good little
>
> linux box, provided I can put in a new hard drive
>
>
>
> What others do if they were in my place?
>
>
> New computer? (newer parts meen less wear and tear and other issues)
>
>
> Replace the failed part (god knows where to even get one in santafe)?
>
>
> Both? (Might buy a small amount of time till new computer) :
>
>
> What kind of computer would people recomend? I've used and enjoyed Apples
> in
>
> the past. If there's a PC brand that rocks by all meens sugest some.
>
>
> 
>
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>
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>
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>
>
> 
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>
>
>
> 
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: The DEL hilarity continues

[Parks, Raymond]

This.  I just got to this thread (still active) today because I was out ill, 
but my next personal desktop will be built by me consulting with the Tech 
Report System Guide .  
For Gillian's stated purpose, I would recommend something along the line of 
"The Sweet Spot" on page 8 of the article.  It is a gaming oriented build, so 
the GPU might be overkill.

Ray Parks
Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
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On Dec 13, 2015, at 1:31 PM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

> From what you’ve said earlier, isn’t your computer like 9 years old?
> In that case, most everything is probably so out of date that it might
> be best to just give it to some geek that likes tinkering with old
> stuff. If it were me, I would build one from scratch. Surely some nice
> geeky guy or gal would help you, and you would learn a lot in the
> process. Of course, that begs the question of what OS to put on it. MS
> gives system builders good deals on OEM versions of their OS. Or, see
> how you get along for a while with purely open source, i.e. Linux,
> OpenOffice/LibreOffice. My $.02, probably worth about that much.
> 
> On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 3:00 PM, Gillian Densmore
>  wrote:
>> Ray I think you called it  that damn thing crashed yesterday.
>> 
>> Crashed (noun and adjective):
>> Common accurence with windwos.  Symptoms: Unresponsive programs, a blue
>> colored screen,  mouse and keybored ignored, and otherwise describing doom.
>> 
>> 
>> Now it won't even boot.
>> 
>> As I am now in the market for a new desktop because I've put about at least
>> 300 into the DEL (see also doom, crash, and crappy computers, highblood
>> preasure, and general dystopic state with a yen to crush the world)
>> 
>> I'm disinclined to much more, if any into it.
>> 
>> I'd prefer a computer that rocks.  For me that meens can play games, kick
>> ass parts so as it's not in the damn shop costing as much or more than I
>> initially payed for.
>> Based on my now soured taste twards this dell  and having replaced the hard
>> drive 3 times, It'd be preferable to have one with two  seperate hardrives
>> so as backup is simple and easy.
>> 
>> 
>> I saw a green tank one Amazon for 900. (with free prime shipping) from
>> CyberPowerPC with 16gigs of ram and Nvidia of some sort that sported 2 gigs
>> of ram
>> 
>> 
>> In in the interest of transparency: I might prefer to replace this DEL
>> because it, or windows iritiates me. I'd prefer to Keep the Hard drive it
>> has (If it's still good)
>> It's power converter and motivators are bad then that's likely at least 30,
>> and it doesn't feel like it's aging gracefully. It might make a good little
>> linux box, provided I can put in a new hard drive
>> 
>> 
>> What others do if they were in my place?
>> 
>> New computer? (newer parts meen less wear and tear and other issues)
>> 
>> Replace the failed part (god knows where to even get one in santafe)?
>> 
>> Both? (Might buy a small amount of time till new computer) :
>> 
>> What kind of computer would people recomend? I've used and enjoyed Apples in
>> the past. If there's a PC brand that rocks by all meens sugest some.
>> 
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> 
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: The DEL hilarity continues

[Parks, Raymond]

Answers in-line below

Ray Parks
Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
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On Dec 21, 2015, at 12:42 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:

> What (if any) realistic benifits are there to building a computer yourself 
> these days?

1.  You may be able to get a better overall price at the cost of your labour.  
With the kind of system which you're considering, price differential between 
commodity components and the complete system is subsumed by the OEM discounts 
compared to your prices.  Enthusiast systems tend to have greater price 
differentials, especially since many spec computers simply don't have high-end 
components.
2.  You can customize the system to meet your requirements rather than some 
generic set of requirements the manufacturer thinks will fit some subset of the 
marketplace.  Some examples - using integrated graphics instead of a discrete 
GPU, using RAID 1 or 6 - are usually not possible without modifying a spec 
computer.  Once you add in the customization, the cost of building it yourself 
is frequently lower.



>  And does anyone have opinions or experience with Cybertron(PC)? I found them 
> on a random google search.
> 
> One in particular here people seem fairly content with:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/CybertronPC-Hellion-TGM1213B-FX-6300-GeForce/dp/B00D1KWS3

  You may want to do some research into complaints - I can't remember if it was 
Cybertron, iBuyPower, or Cyberpower , but I remember seeing complaints about 
one (or more) of them.  Something to do with components failing and poor 
customer support which is just as true of Dells and HPs.

> 
> One thing that stands out is they seem to use regular parts. Some of those 
> seem to get  somewhat ok  reviews. A few people have said it'd be a good idea 
> to update the power supply.

  Just like Dell or HP, when you read the fine print they reserve the right to 
substitute "equivalent" parts.  I have had hardware problems and the 
manufacturer can't determine which component my computer has, even with full 
serial numbers.

> when compared to  following guides on http://pcpartpicker.com/  making sure I 
> stick to systems that are around 700-800 dollars.
> 
> I more or less come up with simillar parts, and I end up spending as much of 
> or even way  more.
> 
>  I suspect in part because Winderz 10 is around 130-200 dollars, and intel 
> chips are pretty expensive.
> 
> Anecdotally years ago I couldn't tell the difference from a intel vs AMD chip 
> in real world day to day and gaming.

  I used to use AMD exclusively, but they have not succeeded in keeping up with 
Intel in compute performance or power saving.  




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Re: [FRIAM] [EXTERNAL] Re: The DEL hilarity continues

[Owen Densmore]

Just looked at the systems built for between $400-$800.
http://pcpartpicker.com/guide/#X=39404,82077=d3=1
I sorted it by date because I found that several parts were no longer
available when sorting by popularity.

Also, the OS was $90 generally for Windows 8.x, and often left off the
overall price. Linux and OSX have free OS's nowadays, so was a bit
surprised at that added cost. Also the shipping sometimes said Free but now
is $4.00.

The Tech Report http://techreport.com/review/29012/system-guide-current
was superb, great way to learn how to build a system with
good explanations on each part of the builds.

I think if I were building a system, I'd start with their budget system and
upgrade a few parts.

So I'm left with a few questions:
- Once you buy Windows, do you get upgrades for free?
- How interoperable are the pieces within a given form factor? I.e. if in 3
years I can afford to amp it up a bit, should it be easy to upgrade to a
faster CPU? More RAM?, A new graphics card (assuming I don't have an
integrated one)?

My guess that's asking for a lot but possibly keeping within a given family
of devices might let me be more future-proof.

   -- Owen

On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Parks, Raymond  wrote:

> Answers in-line below
>
> Ray Parks
> Consilient Heuristician/IDART Old-Timer
> V: 505-844-4024  M: 505-238-9359  P: 505-951-6084
> NIPR: rcpa...@sandia.gov
> SIPR: rcpar...@sandia.doe.sgov.gov (send NIPR reminder)
> JWICS: dopa...@doe.ic.gov (send NIPR reminder)
>
>
>
> On Dec 21, 2015, at 12:42 PM, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>
> What (if any) realistic benifits are there to building a computer yourself
> these days?
>
>
> 1.  You may be able to get a better overall price at the cost of your
> labour.  With the kind of system which you're considering, price
> differential between commodity components and the complete system is
> subsumed by the OEM discounts compared to your prices.  Enthusiast systems
> tend to have greater price differentials, especially since many spec
> computers simply don't have high-end components.
> 2.  You can customize the system to meet your requirements rather than
> some generic set of requirements the manufacturer thinks will fit some
> subset of the marketplace.  Some examples - using integrated graphics
> instead of a discrete GPU, using RAID 1 or 6 - are usually not possible
> without modifying a spec computer.  Once you add in the customization, the
> cost of building it yourself is frequently lower.
>
>
>
>  And does anyone have opinions or experience with Cybertron(PC)? I found
> them on a random google search.
>
> One in particular here people seem fairly content with:
>
>
> http://www.amazon.com/CybertronPC-Hellion-TGM1213B-FX-6300-GeForce/dp/B00D1KWS3
>
>
>   You may want to do some research into complaints - I can't remember if
> it was Cybertron, iBuyPower, or Cyberpower , but I remember seeing
> complaints about one (or more) of them.  Something to do with components
> failing and poor customer support which is just as true of Dells and HPs.
>
>
> One thing that stands out is they seem to use regular parts. Some of those
> seem to get  somewhat ok  reviews. A few people have said it'd be a good
> idea to update the power supply.
>
>
>   Just like Dell or HP, when you read the fine print they reserve the
> right to substitute "equivalent" parts.  I have had hardware problems and
> the manufacturer can't determine which component my computer has, even with
> full serial numbers.
>
> when compared to  following guides on http://pcpartpicker.com/  making
> sure I stick to systems that are around 700-800 dollars.
>
> I more or less come up with simillar parts, and I end up spending as much
> of or even way  more.
>
>  I suspect in part because Winderz 10 is around 130-200 dollars, and intel
> chips are pretty expensive.
>
> Anecdotally years ago I couldn't tell the difference from a intel vs AMD
> chip in real world day to day and gaming.
>
>
>   I used to use AMD exclusively, but they have not succeeded in keeping up
> with Intel in compute performance or power saving.
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

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