Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Nick Thompson]

Dave West, 

 

I enjoyed our conversation today a LOT.  

 

Just another thought on the group discussion idea.  Once could simply send a 
message out to the relevant people saying, “I want to get you guys together in 
a group; what would it take?”  And see what happens.  

 

I would have a hard time not inviting Frank, if I were, in any sense, a host of 
the group.  

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 11:48 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

 

All I know is that it sucks ass to do anything requiring internet here in NM.

One one hand LOVE the Village feel

On the other hand:

When I need to get 

-Bug fixes for anything on my computer

-Want to listen to some awsome music

or basically do ANYTHING network related like having fun exploring VERY VERY 
Beutiful down town santa fe is a unexcusablly flaky Pile of Targh food

TO THE NETHER WITH THAT!

I WANT THE INTERNET AND SCIENCE HERE TO WAKE UP!!

By Kahless who SANE wants that stuff to take all day?

 

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 4:30 PM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com 
<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

“The rest of us have to get our I-net service by dial up or cell tower.  The 
connections to the Cell tower are metered, so that if you fall asleep at your 
computer and it decides to download an update, you could wake up from your nap 
with a 150 dollar phone bill. “

 

I worry that 5G will take is from bad (Comcast) to an even worse monopolistic 
situation.   But technically the conversation shouldn’t just be about wires.

 

Marcus  



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Gillian Densmore]

For example I HAVE TO have the option to see what if I can figure out why
someones computer is speeking klingon and is on it's way to a Bird of Prey.

Well right now  my network is to unreliable to do that because it simple
doesn't have enough umpf.
So I call people and see what I can do. The force is being nice and so far
the issues aren't particularly complicated.

Eventually I will need much more reliable and speedier networking


On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> All I know is that it sucks ass to do anything requiring internet here in
> NM.
>
> One one hand LOVE the Village feel
>
> On the other hand:
> When I need to get
> -Bug fixes for anything on my computer
> -Want to listen to some awsome music
>
> or basically do ANYTHING network related like having fun exploring VERY
> VERY Beutiful down town santa fe is a unexcusablly flaky Pile of Targh food
>
> TO THE NETHER WITH THAT!
>
> I WANT THE INTERNET AND SCIENCE HERE TO WAKE UP!!
>
> By Kahless who SANE wants that stuff to take all day?
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 4:30 PM, Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> “The rest of us have to get our I-net service by dial up or cell tower.
>> The connections to the Cell tower are metered, so that if you fall asleep
>> at your computer and it decides to download an update, you could wake up
>> from your nap with a 150 dollar phone bill. “
>>
>>
>>
>> I worry that 5G will take is from bad (Comcast) to an even worse
>> monopolistic situation.   But technically the conversation shouldn’t just
>> be about wires.
>>
>>
>>
>> Marcus
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Gillian Densmore]

All I know is that it sucks ass to do anything requiring internet here in
NM.

One one hand LOVE the Village feel

On the other hand:
When I need to get
-Bug fixes for anything on my computer
-Want to listen to some awsome music

or basically do ANYTHING network related like having fun exploring VERY
VERY Beutiful down town santa fe is a unexcusablly flaky Pile of Targh food

TO THE NETHER WITH THAT!

I WANT THE INTERNET AND SCIENCE HERE TO WAKE UP!!

By Kahless who SANE wants that stuff to take all day?


On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 4:30 PM, Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> “The rest of us have to get our I-net service by dial up or cell tower.
> The connections to the Cell tower are metered, so that if you fall asleep
> at your computer and it decides to download an update, you could wake up
> from your nap with a 150 dollar phone bill. “
>
>
>
> I worry that 5G will take is from bad (Comcast) to an even worse
> monopolistic situation.   But technically the conversation shouldn’t just
> be about wires.
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Marcus Daniels]

“The rest of us have to get our I-net service by dial up or cell tower.  The 
connections to the Cell tower are metered, so that if you fall asleep at your 
computer and it decides to download an update, you could wake up from your nap 
with a 150 dollar phone bill. “

I worry that 5G will take is from bad (Comcast) to an even worse monopolistic 
situation.   But technically the conversation shouldn’t just be about wires.

Marcus

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Gary Schiltz]

Nick, I'd recommend that you pay for access to a fiber connection at some
location that is line-of-sight from your house in rural MA, then beam the
signal wirelessly from that point to your house. Wireless access points are
inexpensive, and easily cover 10-15 miles if you have line of sight. I'm
quite fond of Ubiquiti myself (ubnt.com), as they are available here in EC.
You can get a pair of Ubiquiti AirGrid 5.8 GHz access points with
integrated antennas for about $150, and they should give you about 50
megabits per second, which is probably at least as fast as the connection
to fiber would be. Here in the cloud forest, the biggest problem is getting
above the trees, many of which are 20-30 meters tall. I've been playing
around with designing masts and towers to get above the trees as cheaply as
possible.

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

> Thanks, Marcus,
>
>
>
> The rural co-operative thing interests me.  Half the year I live in rural
> Massachusetts.  There the problem is not that there isn’t fiber around.  It
> is that Verizon has sucked the heart out of the market by running stripes
> of fibre here and there, but not going to the effort to connect anybody who
> is not 100 feet from the pole.  The rest of us have to get our I-net
> service by dial up or cell tower.  The connections to the Cell tower are
> metered, so that if you fall asleep at your computer and it decides to
> download an update, you could wake up from your nap with a 150 dollar phone
> bill.   The whole thing is nerve wracking and stupid.  But still, I doubt
> that one could get a rural coop thing going in MA  because a significant
> proportion of each community doesn’t have a problem.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Marcus
> Daniels
> *Sent:* Monday, March 07, 2016 1:53 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US
> cities
>
>
>
> My personal belief/preference is that withholding adequate internet access
> is like withholding  public transportation, education, health care or
> nutrition.Now _*I*_ had to make due with a 300 baud modem as a young
> person, so in some sense the expectations I’m hearing here are hilarious
> (_gigabit_ Ethernet, seriously?).   But that 300 baud modem was nonetheless
> transformative for me and so I have relatively strong opinions on the value
> of bring information to rural users, whether that is BBS, internet , or
> just a book mobile.
>
>
>
> I see no reason to distinguish between work and entertainment uses.
> Would you like it if police pulled you over on the highway (as opposed to
> the information highway) to see if you were going to a movie instead of to
> work?   It’s not a huge cost to overbuild a bit compared to the
> infrastructure issues in Flint, Michigan or earthquake preparations in
> Seaside Oregon, or any of thousand things that are teetering on or past the
> edge of catastrophe in this country.  A  conservative might say there is
> trade off to be made.I would just call them cheapskates.  But back in
> the rural area where I grew up, prior generations realized right away they
> would have nothing if they didn’t form a telephone co-op.  Now they are
> deploying fiber to the home and many homes have had internet TV for years.
>  Because they wanted to.   So my takeaway is:  Just decide you want to..
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com
> <friam-boun...@redfish.com>] *On Behalf Of *Nick Thompson
> *Sent:* Monday, March 07, 2016 12:56 PM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US
> cities
>
>
>
> Hi, Marcus,
>
>
>
> Wait.   Hang on.  I was actually trying to present arguments in a colorful
> way, not being personal.   I hope you saw that.   I wasn’t trying to
> characterize you, or anybody else, really.  Not even me.  I am not my Inner
> Luddite.  At least, I hope not.
>
>
>
> My fantasy about “interactive pornography” was not directed toward any
> person,  but was an attempt to stimulate the network neutrality discussion
> at the Municipal level.  I was interested in stimulating the list to
> discuss the question:
>
>
>
> Are we obligated to provide expanded bandwidth for all activities equally
>
>
>
> I actually don’t know what I think about that que

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Nick Thompson]

Thanks, Marcus, 

 

The rural co-operative thing interests me.  Half the year I live in rural 
Massachusetts.  There the problem is not that there isn’t fiber around.  It is 
that Verizon has sucked the heart out of the market by running stripes of fibre 
here and there, but not going to the effort to connect anybody who is not 100 
feet from the pole.  The rest of us have to get our I-net service by dial up or 
cell tower.  The connections to the Cell tower are metered, so that if you fall 
asleep at your computer and it decides to download an update, you could wake up 
from your nap with a 150 dollar phone bill.   The whole thing is nerve wracking 
and stupid.  But still, I doubt that one could get a rural coop thing going in 
MA  because a significant proportion of each community doesn’t have a problem.  

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 1:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

 

My personal belief/preference is that withholding adequate internet access is 
like withholding  public transportation, education, health care or nutrition.   
 Now _I_ had to make due with a 300 baud modem as a young person, so in some 
sense the expectations I’m hearing here are hilarious (_gigabit_ Ethernet, 
seriously?).   But that 300 baud modem was nonetheless transformative for me 
and so I have relatively strong opinions on the value of bring information to 
rural users, whether that is BBS, internet , or just a book mobile.

 

I see no reason to distinguish between work and entertainment uses.   Would you 
like it if police pulled you over on the highway (as opposed to the information 
highway) to see if you were going to a movie instead of to work?   It’s not a 
huge cost to overbuild a bit compared to the infrastructure issues in Flint, 
Michigan or earthquake preparations in Seaside Oregon, or any of thousand 
things that are teetering on or past the edge of catastrophe in this country.  
A  conservative might say there is trade off to be made.I would just call 
them cheapskates.  But back in the rural area where I grew up, prior 
generations realized right away they would have nothing if they didn’t form a 
telephone co-op.  Now they are deploying fiber to the home and many homes have 
had internet TV for years.   Because they wanted to.   So my takeaway is:  Just 
decide you want to..

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 12:56 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com 
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

 

Hi, Marcus, 

 

Wait.   Hang on.  I was actually trying to present arguments in a colorful way, 
not being personal.   I hope you saw that.   I wasn’t trying to characterize 
you, or anybody else, really.  Not even me.  I am not my Inner Luddite.  At 
least, I hope not. 

 

My fantasy about “interactive pornography” was not directed toward any person,  
but was an attempt to stimulate the network neutrality discussion at the 
Municipal level.  I was interested in stimulating the list to discuss the 
question:

 

Are we obligated to provide expanded bandwidth for all activities equally

 

I actually don’t know what I think about that question, which is why I want to 
hear it discussed.   Is there any legitimate argument to be made for the 
equivalent of “emergency vehicles” on the “information super-highway”?  Or HOV 
lanes.  Is there really no way to distinguish between work and entertainment?  

 

Any time a City issues a bond or appropriates funds, it constitutes a 
collective action, right?  So then, collective benefit presumably comes into 
play, if only of  the “you scratch my back and I will scratch yours” kind.  So 
then,  we get to make arguments about the relative benefits to a community (or 
the individuals in it) of different potential allocations.  That’s all I meant 
by “moral urgency”, when push comes to shove.   I suppose from Ting’s point of 
view, it’s all irrelevant.  The more use the better.  

 

Again my apologies for being annoying.  You have made several very helpful 
contributions to this thread, and I would hate  to lose you.  

 

Thanks, 

 

Nick  

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 1

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Marcus Daniels]

My personal belief/preference is that withholding adequate internet access is 
like withholding  public transportation, education, health care or nutrition.   
 Now _I_ had to make due with a 300 baud modem as a young person, so in some 
sense the expectations I’m hearing here are hilarious (_gigabit_ Ethernet, 
seriously?).   But that 300 baud modem was nonetheless transformative for me 
and so I have relatively strong opinions on the value of bring information to 
rural users, whether that is BBS, internet , or just a book mobile.

I see no reason to distinguish between work and entertainment uses.   Would you 
like it if police pulled you over on the highway (as opposed to the information 
highway) to see if you were going to a movie instead of to work?   It’s not a 
huge cost to overbuild a bit compared to the infrastructure issues in Flint, 
Michigan or earthquake preparations in Seaside Oregon, or any of thousand 
things that are teetering on or past the edge of catastrophe in this country.  
A  conservative might say there is trade off to be made.I would just call 
them cheapskates.  But back in the rural area where I grew up, prior 
generations realized right away they would have nothing if they didn’t form a 
telephone co-op.  Now they are deploying fiber to the home and many homes have 
had internet TV for years.   Because they wanted to.   So my takeaway is:  Just 
decide you want to..

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 12:56 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Hi, Marcus,

Wait.   Hang on.  I was actually trying to present arguments in a colorful way, 
not being personal.   I hope you saw that.   I wasn’t trying to characterize 
you, or anybody else, really.  Not even me.  I am not my Inner Luddite.  At 
least, I hope not.

My fantasy about “interactive pornography” was not directed toward any person,  
but was an attempt to stimulate the network neutrality discussion at the 
Municipal level.  I was interested in stimulating the list to discuss the 
question:

Are we obligated to provide expanded bandwidth for all activities equally

I actually don’t know what I think about that question, which is why I want to 
hear it discussed.   Is there any legitimate argument to be made for the 
equivalent of “emergency vehicles” on the “information super-highway”?  Or HOV 
lanes.  Is there really no way to distinguish between work and entertainment?

Any time a City issues a bond or appropriates funds, it constitutes a 
collective action, right?  So then, collective benefit presumably comes into 
play, if only of  the “you scratch my back and I will scratch yours” kind.  So 
then,  we get to make arguments about the relative benefits to a community (or 
the individuals in it) of different potential allocations.  That’s all I meant 
by “moral urgency”, when push comes to shove.   I suppose from Ting’s point of 
view, it’s all irrelevant.  The more use the better.

Again my apologies for being annoying.  You have made several very helpful 
contributions to this thread, and I would hate  to lose you.

Thanks,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 11:39 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Actually my inner nihilist says, “Who gives a damn about your moral urgency?”
No one is obligated to do anything in this situation.   The advocates get what 
they want, or fail to.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 11:36 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
<friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

I now realize that my Inner Luddite is actually quite a puritan.  He says, “Are 
any of the activities you describe morally urgent”.

I think your Inner Libertarian replies, “Who gives a damn for your Inner 
Luddite?!  It’s not for us to police other’s behavior.”

To which my Inner Luddite replies, “Ok.  But are we obligated to provide 
expanded bandwidth for all activities equally?”

Like all Puritans, my Inner Luddite has a filthy imagination.  Let us imagine a 
new genre of interactive pornography which requires 1 gig responsivity.  Let’s 
imagine that a marketing survey shows that 60 percent of high band width use 
will consist of interactive pornography.  Is the mayor of Plymouth 
Massachusetts obligated to facilitate the installation of 1 gig service in her 
to

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[glen]

I doubt Marcus took your e-mail personally.  I think he was making a standard 
point about obligation and advocacy.

Your idea of dividing bandwidth in the same (or similar) ways things like roads 
or power might be divided is interesting, though.  All of the precision you 
raise can be done.  Our laws surrounding things like HOV lanes or even luxury 
taxes would apply to network bandwidth _if_ our legislators and the public 
would take the time to learn what it all means.  ... reminds me of this 
kerfuffle:

  
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/01/friends-please-tell-t-mobiles-ceo-about-eff


On 03/07/2016 11:55 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Are we obligated to provide expanded bandwidth for all activities equally

I actually don’t know what I think about that question, which is why I want to 
hear it discussed.   Is there any legitimate argument to be made for the 
equivalent of “emergency vehicles” on the “information super-highway”?  Or HOV 
lanes.  Is there really no way to distinguish between work and entertainment?

Any time a City issues a bond or appropriates funds, it constitutes a 
collective action, right?  So then, collective benefit presumably comes into 
play, if only of  the “you scratch my back and I will scratch yours” kind.  So 
then,  we get to make arguments about the relative benefits to a community (or 
the individuals in it) of different potential allocations.  That’s all I meant 
by “moral urgency”, when push comes to shove.   I suppose from Ting’s point of 
view, it’s all irrelevant.  The more use the better.

Again my apologies for being annoying.  You have made several very helpful 
contributions to this thread, and I would hate  to lose you.


--
⇔ glen


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Nick Thompson]

Hi, Marcus, 

 

Wait.   Hang on.  I was actually trying to present arguments in a colorful way, 
not being personal.   I hope you saw that.   I wasn’t trying to characterize 
you, or anybody else, really.  Not even me.  I am not my Inner Luddite.  At 
least, I hope not. 

 

My fantasy about “interactive pornography” was not directed toward any person,  
but was an attempt to stimulate the network neutrality discussion at the 
Municipal level.  I was interested in stimulating the list to discuss the 
question:

 

Are we obligated to provide expanded bandwidth for all activities equally

 

I actually don’t know what I think about that question, which is why I want to 
hear it discussed.   Is there any legitimate argument to be made for the 
equivalent of “emergency vehicles” on the “information super-highway”?  Or HOV 
lanes.  Is there really no way to distinguish between work and entertainment?  

 

Any time a City issues a bond or appropriates funds, it constitutes a 
collective action, right?  So then, collective benefit presumably comes into 
play, if only of  the “you scratch my back and I will scratch yours” kind.  So 
then,  we get to make arguments about the relative benefits to a community (or 
the individuals in it) of different potential allocations.  That’s all I meant 
by “moral urgency”, when push comes to shove.   I suppose from Ting’s point of 
view, it’s all irrelevant.  The more use the better.  

 

Again my apologies for being annoying.  You have made several very helpful 
contributions to this thread, and I would hate  to lose you.  

 

Thanks, 

 

Nick  

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 11:39 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

 

Actually my inner nihilist says, “Who gives a damn about your moral urgency?”

No one is obligated to do anything in this situation.   The advocates get what 
they want, or fail to.  

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 11:36 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com 
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

 

Marcus, 

 

I now realize that my Inner Luddite is actually quite a puritan.  He says, “Are 
any of the activities you describe morally urgent”.  

 

I think your Inner Libertarian replies, “Who gives a damn for your Inner 
Luddite?!  It’s not for us to police other’s behavior.”

 

To which my Inner Luddite replies, “Ok.  But are we obligated to provide 
expanded bandwidth for all activities equally?”

 

Like all Puritans, my Inner Luddite has a filthy imagination.  Let us imagine a 
new genre of interactive pornography which requires 1 gig responsivity.  Let’s 
imagine that a marketing survey shows that 60 percent of high band width use 
will consist of interactive pornography.  Is the mayor of Plymouth 
Massachusetts obligated to facilitate the installation of 1 gig service in her 
town?  

 

N

 

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 10:37 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com 
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

 

There are a variety of technologies, ranging from Ethernet-based frame buffer 
device drivers (Userful for Linux), to extended RDP protocols (RemoteFX for 
Windows).   Google Chromecast or the NetFlix capabilities integrated into Smart 
TVs are similar, although they are more oriented toward delivery of compressed 
video streams where users don’t care so much about artifacts.  Latency is more 
of a problem for interactive use.   It doesn’t matter if a video stream for 
television is delayed by a second, but it is impossible to use such a thing for 
a desktop computer or most games.  Services like Playstation Now (simple 
protocols integrated into new televisions) have to deal with latency.   High 
performance networking needs to deal with not just bandwidth (download times), 
but also reducing latency.

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 9:51 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com 
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> >

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Marcus Daniels]

Actually my inner nihilist says, “Who gives a damn about your moral urgency?”
No one is obligated to do anything in this situation.   The advocates get what 
they want, or fail to.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 11:36 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

I now realize that my Inner Luddite is actually quite a puritan.  He says, “Are 
any of the activities you describe morally urgent”.

I think your Inner Libertarian replies, “Who gives a damn for your Inner 
Luddite?!  It’s not for us to police other’s behavior.”

To which my Inner Luddite replies, “Ok.  But are we obligated to provide 
expanded bandwidth for all activities equally?”

Like all Puritans, my Inner Luddite has a filthy imagination.  Let us imagine a 
new genre of interactive pornography which requires 1 gig responsivity.  Let’s 
imagine that a marketing survey shows that 60 percent of high band width use 
will consist of interactive pornography.  Is the mayor of Plymouth 
Massachusetts obligated to facilitate the installation of 1 gig service in her 
town?

N



Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 10:37 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

There are a variety of technologies, ranging from Ethernet-based frame buffer 
device drivers (Userful for Linux), to extended RDP protocols (RemoteFX for 
Windows).   Google Chromecast or the NetFlix capabilities integrated into Smart 
TVs are similar, although they are more oriented toward delivery of compressed 
video streams where users don’t care so much about artifacts.  Latency is more 
of a problem for interactive use.   It doesn’t matter if a video stream for 
television is delayed by a second, but it is impossible to use such a thing for 
a desktop computer or most games.  Services like Playstation Now (simple 
protocols integrated into new televisions) have to deal with latency.   High 
performance networking needs to deal with not just bandwidth (download times), 
but also reducing latency.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 9:51 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Huh this zero client thing reminds me of a X11 stunt Skunkworks had. Basically 
a computer (Fred) could somehow talk to other computers so that what ever you 
did was just like it was right there on Ruby, John or who evers computer.  It 
rocked!
My testing was mostly on the gaming end since LAN parties were a both useful 
and fun way to test it out and find gremlins.



On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Marcus Daniels 
<mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
It turns all activities into a 1 Gbit/sec bandwidth.   That’s the speed that is 
needed to stream high resolution (e.g. 1080p) displays and make them feel like 
they are really local.   So, instead of some impoverished stripped-down 
JavaScript application designed for the web, one can run a real app running on 
a beefy machine.  Further, the app never has to be installed or updated.   The 
host does that for the user.

So when companies like Microsoft start offering reduced-price access to 
applications on Azure over the Internet, areas like San Francisco or Portland 
or New York will be able to make use of those low-cost & high capability, and 
we out in the middle of nowhere will not.

From: Friam 
[mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] On Behalf 
Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:23 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
<friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

Is the zero-client setup one that would turn wordprocessing into a one-gig sort 
of an activity?

N

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

“Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig 
serv

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Nick Thompson]

Marcus, 

 

I now realize that my Inner Luddite is actually quite a puritan.  He says, “Are 
any of the activities you describe morally urgent”.  

 

I think your Inner Libertarian replies, “Who gives a damn for your Inner 
Luddite?!  It’s not for us to police other’s behavior.”

 

To which my Inner Luddite replies, “Ok.  But are we obligated to provide 
expanded bandwidth for all activities equally?”

 

Like all Puritans, my Inner Luddite has a filthy imagination.  Let us imagine a 
new genre of interactive pornography which requires 1 gig responsivity.  Let’s 
imagine that a marketing survey shows that 60 percent of high band width use 
will consist of interactive pornography.  Is the mayor of Plymouth 
Massachusetts obligated to facilitate the installation of 1 gig service in her 
town?  

 

N

 

 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 10:37 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

 

There are a variety of technologies, ranging from Ethernet-based frame buffer 
device drivers (Userful for Linux), to extended RDP protocols (RemoteFX for 
Windows).   Google Chromecast or the NetFlix capabilities integrated into Smart 
TVs are similar, although they are more oriented toward delivery of compressed 
video streams where users don’t care so much about artifacts.  Latency is more 
of a problem for interactive use.   It doesn’t matter if a video stream for 
television is delayed by a second, but it is impossible to use such a thing for 
a desktop computer or most games.  Services like Playstation Now (simple 
protocols integrated into new televisions) have to deal with latency.   High 
performance networking needs to deal with not just bandwidth (download times), 
but also reducing latency.

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 9:51 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com 
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> >
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

 

Huh this zero client thing reminds me of a X11 stunt Skunkworks had. Basically 
a computer (Fred) could somehow talk to other computers so that what ever you 
did was just like it was right there on Ruby, John or who evers computer.  It 
rocked!

My testing was mostly on the gaming end since LAN parties were a both useful 
and fun way to test it out and find gremlins. 

 

 

 

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com 
<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com> > wrote:

It turns all activities into a 1 Gbit/sec bandwidth.   That’s the speed that is 
needed to stream high resolution (e.g. 1080p) displays and make them feel like 
they are really local.   So, instead of some impoverished stripped-down 
JavaScript application designed for the web, one can run a real app running on 
a beefy machine.  Further, the app never has to be installed or updated.   The 
host does that for the user.  

 

So when companies like Microsoft start offering reduced-price access to 
applications on Azure over the Internet, areas like San Francisco or Portland 
or New York will be able to make use of those low-cost & high capability, and 
we out in the middle of nowhere will not.  

 

From: Friam [mailto: <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> 
friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:23 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' < 
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

 

Marcus, 

 

Is the zero-client setup one that would turn wordprocessing into a one-gig sort 
of an activity?

 

N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [ <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> 
mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < 
<mailto:friam@redfish.com> friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

 

“Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig 
service in the City?”

 

Zero client technology typically requires reliable 1 Gbit Ethernet.  This is 
the scenario where all apps are hosted on the cloud and display is thrown to 
the user that has a super cheap device.  This

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Marcus Daniels]

There are a variety of technologies, ranging from Ethernet-based frame buffer 
device drivers (Userful for Linux), to extended RDP protocols (RemoteFX for 
Windows).   Google Chromecast or the NetFlix capabilities integrated into Smart 
TVs are similar, although they are more oriented toward delivery of compressed 
video streams where users don’t care so much about artifacts.  Latency is more 
of a problem for interactive use.   It doesn’t matter if a video stream for 
television is delayed by a second, but it is impossible to use such a thing for 
a desktop computer or most games.  Services like Playstation Now (simple 
protocols integrated into new televisions) have to deal with latency.   High 
performance networking needs to deal with not just bandwidth (download times), 
but also reducing latency.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 9:51 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Huh this zero client thing reminds me of a X11 stunt Skunkworks had. Basically 
a computer (Fred) could somehow talk to other computers so that what ever you 
did was just like it was right there on Ruby, John or who evers computer.  It 
rocked!
My testing was mostly on the gaming end since LAN parties were a both useful 
and fun way to test it out and find gremlins.




On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Marcus Daniels 
<mar...@snoutfarm.com<mailto:mar...@snoutfarm.com>> wrote:
It turns all activities into a 1 Gbit/sec bandwidth.   That’s the speed that is 
needed to stream high resolution (e.g. 1080p) displays and make them feel like 
they are really local.   So, instead of some impoverished stripped-down 
JavaScript application designed for the web, one can run a real app running on 
a beefy machine.  Further, the app never has to be installed or updated.   The 
host does that for the user.

So when companies like Microsoft start offering reduced-price access to 
applications on Azure over the Internet, areas like San Francisco or Portland 
or New York will be able to make use of those low-cost & high capability, and 
we out in the middle of nowhere will not.

From: Friam 
[mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] On Behalf 
Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:23 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' 
<friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

Is the zero-client setup one that would turn wordprocessing into a one-gig sort 
of an activity?

N

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

“Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig 
service in the City?”

Zero client technology typically requires reliable 1 Gbit Ethernet.  This is 
the scenario where all apps are hosted on the cloud and display is thrown to 
the user that has a super cheap device.  This is useful in glove box scenarios 
where portability is important (but also access to corporate databases), 
security is paramount, or where theft or damage in the user environment is a 
risk (e.g. public libraries, issuing equipment to students).

Also, zero client setups are useful for reducing maintenance costs as 
everything is centralized.

Marcus




FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Gillian Densmore]

Huh this zero client thing reminds me of a X11 stunt Skunkworks had.
Basically a computer (Fred) could somehow talk to other computers so that
what ever you did was just like it was right there on Ruby, John or who
evers computer.  It rocked!
My testing was mostly on the gaming end since LAN parties were a both
useful and fun way to test it out and find gremlins.





On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> wrote:

> It turns all activities into a 1 Gbit/sec bandwidth.   That’s the speed
> that is needed to stream high resolution (e.g. 1080p) displays and make
> them feel like they are really local.   So, instead of some impoverished
> stripped-down JavaScript application designed for the web, one can run a
> real app running on a beefy machine.  Further, the app never has to be
> installed or updated.   The host does that for the user.
>
>
>
> So when companies like Microsoft start offering reduced-price access to
> applications on Azure over the Internet, areas like San Francisco or
> Portland or New York will be able to make use of those low-cost & high
> capability, and we out in the middle of nowhere will not.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Nick
> Thompson
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:23 PM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US
> cities
>
>
>
> Marcus,
>
>
>
> Is the zero-client setup one that would turn wordprocessing into a one-gig
> sort of an activity?
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com
> <friam-boun...@redfish.com>] *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:04 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US
> cities
>
>
>
> “Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig
> service in the City?”
>
>
>
> Zero client technology typically requires reliable 1 Gbit Ethernet.  This
> is the scenario where all apps are hosted on the cloud and display is
> thrown to the user that has a super cheap device.  This is useful in glove
> box scenarios where portability is important (but also access to corporate
> databases), security is paramount, or where theft or damage in the user
> environment is a risk (e.g. public libraries, issuing equipment to
> students).
>
>
>
> Also, zero client setups are useful for reducing maintenance costs as
> everything is centralized.
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Marcus Daniels]

It turns all activities into a 1 Gbit/sec bandwidth.   That’s the speed that is 
needed to stream high resolution (e.g. 1080p) displays and make them feel like 
they are really local.   So, instead of some impoverished stripped-down 
JavaScript application designed for the web, one can run a real app running on 
a beefy machine.  Further, the app never has to be installed or updated.   The 
host does that for the user.

So when companies like Microsoft start offering reduced-price access to 
applications on Azure over the Internet, areas like San Francisco or Portland 
or New York will be able to make use of those low-cost & high capability, and 
we out in the middle of nowhere will not.

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:23 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

Marcus,

Is the zero-client setup one that would turn wordprocessing into a one-gig sort 
of an activity?

N

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
<friam@redfish.com<mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

“Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig 
service in the City?”

Zero client technology typically requires reliable 1 Gbit Ethernet.  This is 
the scenario where all apps are hosted on the cloud and display is thrown to 
the user that has a super cheap device.  This is useful in glove box scenarios 
where portability is important (but also access to corporate databases), 
security is paramount, or where theft or damage in the user environment is a 
risk (e.g. public libraries, issuing equipment to students).

Also, zero client setups are useful for reducing maintenance costs as 
everything is centralized.

Marcus



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Gillian Densmore]

, StarNet   and anyone else that is game to take on
the challenge! ^_^



On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:28 PM, Edward Angel <an...@cs.unm.edu> wrote:

> I agree with Marcus’ comments.
>
> In addition, lack of a competitive broadband infrastructure contributes to
> the reasons it is so difficult to get companies to come to NM although the
> terrible schools probably override all the other reasons. Of course better
> broadband could only help with the schools.
>
> At present netflix and other streaming activities like games eat up
> network bandwidth but as almost all applications become cloud based, the
> demand for bandwidth for other purposes (backup, computing, word
> processing) will certainly go up but it seems to a ways off before most
> people will need gigabit connectivity. I’d worry more about the underlying
> infrastructure more than whether my connection is via cable or fiber.
>
> Ed
> __
>
> Ed Angel
>
> Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory
> (ARTS Lab)
> Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
>
> 1017 Sierra Pinon
> Santa Fe, NM 87501
> 505-984-0136 (home)   an...@cs.unm.edu
> 505-453-4944 (cell)  http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
>   http://artslab.unm.edu
> http://sfcomplex.org
>
>
>
>
> On Mar 6, 2016, at 11:05 AM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> Hi, Ed,
>
>
>
> Very interesting!
>
> I keep mulling this idea that broad band build-out *CAUSES* economic
> development.  Putting aside the correlation/causality problem for a bit and
> assuming *per argumentum*that it does work, HOW does it work?  In
> practice, who uses gigabyte speed, and for what?  Let’s say I am a small
> business in Santa Fe making Widgets or selling Widget Repair Services.
> Suddenly 1-gig broad band comes to my neighborhood, what am I suddenly
> enabled to do that I couldn’t do before?  I assume that if there is a group
> of people in the World capable of giving that issue a good airing, it would
> be this list.  I would particularly like to hear from members in far-flung
> places that have this sort of service.  Is it available in Europe?
>
> Allow me to put the Luddite position.  Here’s a quote adapted from Julian
> Barnes’s *Flaubert’s Parrot.*
> *“[Flaubert] didn’t just hate BROADBAND as such; he hated the way it
> flattered people with the illusion of progress. What was the point of
> scientific advance without moral advance? BROADBAND would merely permit
> more people to LOG ON, meet and be stupid together.” *
> My Inner Luddite assumes  that the chief drivers of broadband-envy are
> gaming and movie downloads.  He finds neither of these activities morally
> urgent.
>
> How is he  wrong about this?   Can somebody make the case?
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
> Clark University
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com
> <friam-boun...@redfish.com>] *On Behalf Of *Edward Angel
> *Sent:* Sunday, March 06, 2016 7:48 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US
> cities
>
> I have a difficult time believing that Ting will decide to come here. Some
> of the reasons:
>
> The pricing is very interesting. Right now I pay about  $60/month for 80
> mbps downloads and 5-6 mbps uploads. The service has been very reliable. So
> it sounds good to have the possibility of getting gigabit speeds for only
> another $30/month. The other side of this is that the $60/month is about
> twice what I would pay for the speed I get elsewhere so it’s not clear that
> the biggest contribution Ting might make is to lower the monopolistic rates
> Comcast and Qwest get away with. More important is that I question how many
> households in Santa Fe really need gigabit speeds. FRIAMers are not
> representative of the SF population and even among us, how many of us need
> that speed..
>
> The second issue is where the service would be available. At their range
> of costs per drop, they would be restricted to a small radius in the center
> of the city. I live a couple of miles up Hyde Park Road near the Santa Fe
> Institute. We have all underground utilities so I can’t see any way Ting
> will ever get up here. The $9 vote even if all 100 or so of my neighbors
> did it seems totally irrelevant.
>
> But my largest problem by far is issue of cherry picking and providing
> service in only select areas which for residential customers means where
> the rich people live. That leaves out most of the residents who are poor
> an

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Nick Thompson]

Marcus, 

 

Is the zero-client setup one that would turn wordprocessing into a one-gig sort 
of an activity?

 

N

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 2:04 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

 

“Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig 
service in the City?”

 

Zero client technology typically requires reliable 1 Gbit Ethernet.  This is 
the scenario where all apps are hosted on the cloud and display is thrown to 
the user that has a super cheap device.  This is useful in glove box scenarios 
where portability is important (but also access to corporate databases), 
security is paramount, or where theft or damage in the user environment is a 
risk (e.g. public libraries, issuing equipment to students).  

 

Also, zero client setups are useful for reducing maintenance costs as 
everything is centralized. 

 

Marcus

 

 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Nick Thompson]

Ed, 

 

Continuing in my Luddite mode:  

 

What on earth does one need broad band for to do word processing?  (See below). 
 

 

You do point to one use that even Luddites might make use of … backup.  Having 
cloud backup was all very well until I realized that recovery from a crash 
would require 8 light years to accomplish given my connection to the Cloud.  
Consequently, I had to  I spent a whole week huddled by an Ethernet port at my 
university getting my data back.  And that, of course, was not an image, so 
then I spent another three weeks getting my software up and running again.  It 
was the summer from hell.  I guess broad band might have made it possible for 
me to store an image of my hard drive and bypass all of that?  

 

Do others have very specific advantages that would flow from having 1-gig 
service in the City?

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Edward Angel
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 12:29 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

 

I agree with Marcus’ comments. 

 

In addition, lack of a competitive broadband infrastructure contributes to the 
reasons it is so difficult to get companies to come to NM although the terrible 
schools probably override all the other reasons. Of course better broadband 
could only help with the schools.

 

At present netflix and other streaming activities like games eat up network 
bandwidth but as almost all applications become cloud based, the demand for 
bandwidth for other purposes (backup, computing, word processing) will 
certainly go up but it seems to a ways off before most people will need gigabit 
connectivity. I’d worry more about the underlying infrastructure more than 
whether my connection is via cable or fiber.

 

Ed

__

 

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon

Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu 
<mailto:an...@cs.unm.edu> 

505-453-4944 (cell) 
http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

http://artslab.unm.edu <http://artslab.unm.edu/> 


http://sfcomplex.org <http://sfcomplex.org/> 

 

 

 

 

On Mar 6, 2016, at 11:05 AM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net 
<mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > wrote:

 

Hi, Ed, 





Very interesting!

 

I keep mulling this idea that broad band build-out CAUSES economic development. 
 Putting aside the correlation/causality problem for a bit and assuming per 
argumentumthat it does work, HOW does it work?  In practice, who uses gigabyte 
speed, and for what?  Let’s say I am a small business in Santa Fe making 
Widgets or selling Widget Repair Services.  Suddenly 1-gig broad band comes to 
my neighborhood, what am I suddenly enabled to do that I couldn’t do before?  I 
assume that if there is a group of people in the World capable of giving that 
issue a good airing, it would be this list.  I would particularly like to hear 
from members in far-flung places that have this sort of service.  Is it 
available in Europe?  

 

Allow me to put the Luddite position.  Here’s a quote adapted from Julian 
Barnes’s Flaubert’s Parrot.

“[Flaubert] didn’t just hate BROADBAND as such; he hated the way it flattered 
people with the illusion of progress. What was the point of scientific advance 
without moral advance? BROADBAND would merely permit more people to LOG ON, 
meet and be stupid together.” 

My Inner Luddite assumes  that the chief drivers of broadband-envy are gaming 
and movie downloads.  He finds neither of these activities morally urgent.  

 

How is he  wrong about this?   Can somebody make the case?

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [ <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> 
mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Edward Angel
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 7:48 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < 
<mailto:friam@redfis

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Edward Angel]

I agree with Marcus’ comments. 

In addition, lack of a competitive broadband infrastructure contributes to the 
reasons it is so difficult to get companies to come to NM although the terrible 
schools probably override all the other reasons. Of course better broadband 
could only help with the schools.

At present netflix and other streaming activities like games eat up network 
bandwidth but as almost all applications become cloud based, the demand for 
bandwidth for other purposes (backup, computing, word processing) will 
certainly go up but it seems to a ways off before most people will need gigabit 
connectivity. I’d worry more about the underlying infrastructure more than 
whether my connection is via cable or fiber.

Ed
__

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu 
<mailto:an...@cs.unm.edu>
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel 
<http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel>

http://artslab.unm.edu <http://artslab.unm.edu/>

http://sfcomplex.org <http://sfcomplex.org/>




> On Mar 6, 2016, at 11:05 AM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net 
> <mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net>> wrote:
> 
> Hi, Ed, 
>   
>   
> 
> Very interesting!
>  
> I keep mulling this idea that broad band build-out CAUSES economic 
> development.  Putting aside the correlation/causality problem for a bit and 
> assuming per argumentumthat it does work, HOW does it work?  In practice, who 
> uses gigabyte speed, and for what?  Let’s say I am a small business in Santa 
> Fe making Widgets or selling Widget Repair Services.  Suddenly 1-gig broad 
> band comes to my neighborhood, what am I suddenly enabled to do that I 
> couldn’t do before?  I assume that if there is a group of people in the World 
> capable of giving that issue a good airing, it would be this list.  I would 
> particularly like to hear from members in far-flung places that have this 
> sort of service.  Is it available in Europe?  
>  
> Allow me to put the Luddite position.  Here’s a quote adapted from Julian 
> Barnes’s Flaubert’s Parrot.
> “[Flaubert] didn’t just hate BROADBAND as such; he hated the way it flattered 
> people with the illusion of progress. What was the point of scientific 
> advance without moral advance? BROADBAND would merely permit more people to 
> LOG ON, meet and be stupid together.” 
> My Inner Luddite assumes  that the chief drivers of broadband-envy are gaming 
> and movie downloads.  He finds neither of these activities morally urgent.  
>  
> How is he  wrong about this?   Can somebody make the case?
>  
> Nick 
>  
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
> Clark University
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ 
> <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
>  
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com 
> <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] On Behalf Of Edward Angel
> Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 7:48 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com 
> <mailto:friam@redfish.com>>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities
>  
> I have a difficult time believing that Ting will decide to come here. Some of 
> the reasons:
>  
> The pricing is very interesting. Right now I pay about  $60/month for 80 mbps 
> downloads and 5-6 mbps uploads. The service has been very reliable. So it 
> sounds good to have the possibility of getting gigabit speeds for only 
> another $30/month. The other side of this is that the $60/month is about 
> twice what I would pay for the speed I get elsewhere so it’s not clear that 
> the biggest contribution Ting might make is to lower the monopolistic rates 
> Comcast and Qwest get away with. More important is that I question how many 
> households in Santa Fe really need gigabit speeds. FRIAMers are not 
> representative of the SF population and even among us, how many of us need 
> that speed..
>  
> The second issue is where the service would be available. At their range of 
> costs per drop, they would be restricted to a small radius in the center of 
> the city. I live a couple of miles up Hyde Park Road near the Santa Fe 
> Institute.

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Marcus Daniels]

“My Inner Luddite assumes  that the chief drivers of broadband-envy are gaming 
and movie downloads.  He finds neither of these activities morally urgent.”

Most companies make some effort to protect their information resources.  One 
way they do this is with virtual private networks (VPNs).   Working remotely 
means that these VPNs need to be efficient, and one weak link in this chain is 
the underlying network connection to the remote location.So, if you live in 
podunk New Mexico, where the network connectivity is poor, and get a job for an 
Albuquerque or out-of-state firm and need to work remotely (because you 
couldn’t possibly afford to move to somewhere with a higher cost of living), 
then you are at a clear disadvantage in doing your work.   The company’s 
applications will flake out or become unresponsive while your colleagues 
(competitors) who are on site will progress on their work.

Now one might argue that their network connections might not flake out if it 
were not for those idiots playing their pointless games and idling themselves 
watching movies – all while clogging up the little bandwidth that there is.
But given that people do that, it seems like a having some headroom would be a 
good thing.

Marcus

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Nick Thompson]

Hi, Ed, 





Very interesting!

 

I keep mulling this idea that broad band build-out CAUSES economic development. 
 Putting aside the correlation/causality problem for a bit and assuming per 
argumentum that it does work, HOW does it work?  In practice, who uses gigabyte 
speed, and for what?  Let’s say I am a small business in Santa Fe making 
Widgets or selling Widget Repair Services.  Suddenly 1-gig broad band comes to 
my neighborhood, what am I suddenly enabled to do that I couldn’t do before?  I 
assume that if there is a group of people in the World capable of giving that 
issue a good airing, it would be this list.  I would particularly like to hear 
from members in far-flung places that have this sort of service.  Is it 
available in Europe?  

 

Allow me to put the Luddite position.  Here’s a quote adapted from Julian 
Barnes’s Flaubert’s Parrot.

“[Flaubert] didn’t just hate BROADBAND as such; he hated the way it flattered 
people with the illusion of progress. What was the point of scientific advance 
without moral advance? BROADBAND would merely permit more people to LOG ON, 
meet and be stupid together.” 

My Inner Luddite assumes  that the chief drivers of broadband-envy are gaming 
and movie downloads.  He finds neither of these activities morally urgent.  

 

How is he  wrong about this?   Can somebody make the case?

 

Nick 

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Edward Angel
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 7:48 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

 

I have a difficult time believing that Ting will decide to come here. Some of 
the reasons:

 

The pricing is very interesting. Right now I pay about  $60/month for 80 mbps 
downloads and 5-6 mbps uploads. The service has been very reliable. So it 
sounds good to have the possibility of getting gigabit speeds for only another 
$30/month. The other side of this is that the $60/month is about twice what I 
would pay for the speed I get elsewhere so it’s not clear that the biggest 
contribution Ting might make is to lower the monopolistic rates Comcast and 
Qwest get away with. More important is that I question how many households in 
Santa Fe really need gigabit speeds. FRIAMers are not representative of the SF 
population and even among us, how many of us need that speed..

 

The second issue is where the service would be available. At their range of 
costs per drop, they would be restricted to a small radius in the center of the 
city. I live a couple of miles up Hyde Park Road near the Santa Fe Institute. 
We have all underground utilities so I can’t see any way Ting will ever get up 
here. The $9 vote even if all 100 or so of my neighbors did it seems totally 
irrelevant. 

 

But my largest problem by far is issue of cherry picking and providing service 
in only select areas which for residential customers means where the rich 
people live. That leaves out most of the residents who are poor and live on the 
south side of the city. As I understand it, Ting would not be required to 
provide service to the schools, most of which are on the south side. I suppose 
one could take the position that as a private company Ting should be able to 
decide who it wants to attract as customers. On the other hands, then what is a 
“public” utility? This was a major issue when I was involved with the city 
trying to stop and then fix their 2010 telcom franchise ordinance. One 
interesting side note to that sad effort is that Qwest tried to block the 
franchise ordinance which would have allowed cherry picking arguing that they 
(Qwest) had to provide service for everyone and it would be unfair competition 
to allow other telcoms to pick their customers. This issue was part of the 
reasons Qwest sued the city over the ordinance. 

 

Santa Fe has an over 20 year history of making disastrous decisions on telcom 
that prevented putting in the infrastructure that would have created an 
environment where companies like Ting could come here and provide premium 
service while all residents would be guaranteed a decent affordable level of 
service. At this point I tend to agree with what I see as Sean’s view that 
progress will be incremental. Sad situation for most of the residents of Santa 
Fe, especially the school kids.

 

I encourage any of you that are interested in this issue to get on the 1st mile 
list serve (http://www.1st-mile.org/). There’s lots of information there

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Gillian Densmore]

Hit the nail on the head there Ed!


I think some good can come out of this conversation.  Mostly saying. Oh
Santa Fe has made a bunch of really crappy choices related to having fun,
cool and CHEAP internet.

I suspect ultimatly the fix will come from a combination of things. First
mile seems to be tackling the rules and parts suff. So mabie one othe other
parts a clever people trying to plan and build some realy fast internet?

I guess what I want to come out in text is this sounds like a problem
that's been an issue since at least I've lived in Santa Fe.

I have no idea why on earth someone or a bunch of someones didn't put
together some Kick Blip internet way before then.

What I see as the issue with DSL is basically almost anything I  need to do
with online stuff it's not reely the right tool. Where as Cable or Fiber
would be.

Also kind of sucks for Schools, Mesums, and basically any place doing
Science and Tech to have crappy internet
So then we get into a chicken and Egg.

How do we get say a research campus or fun place like that into Santa Fe if
the parts aren't there, But something like that might be what is needed to
get cheep rocking internet and science and all the fun stuff with it. (for
example)

Yeah we might not need gigabyte speed internet now. I'd think it'd work
better for a while than speeds cable provides.


SPECULATION:

 I wonder if something at Gigabyte speeds that doesn't need a bunch of wire
would work even better.
Mostly because once don't require a reely long wire can get fast internet
all over the place, anywhere there's a box shouting out here be Bazzinga
speed internet.

Might be cheeper because you can lots and lots of them all over the place
with out needing to make what amounts to building a big ol LAN party.
Thus win-win for the most part.


Anyway it's Sunday, it sounds like a bunch of clever people are re-visting
the quirky state of Santa Fe and InfoNet problems.  I'd like to see that
part get improved enormously.

I proclaim to everyone

Much Myth!

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Edward Angel  wrote:

> I have a difficult time believing that Ting will decide to come here. Some
> of the reasons:
>
> The pricing is very interesting. Right now I pay about  $60/month for 80
> mbps downloads and 5-6 mbps uploads. The service has been very reliable. So
> it sounds good to have the possibility of getting gigabit speeds for only
> another $30/month. The other side of this is that the $60/month is about
> twice what I would pay for the speed I get elsewhere so it’s not clear that
> the biggest contribution Ting might make is to lower the monopolistic rates
> Comcast and Qwest get away with. More important is that I question how many
> households in Santa Fe really need gigabit speeds. FRIAMers are not
> representative of the SF population and even among us, how many of us need
> that speed..
>
> The second issue is where the service would be available. At their range
> of costs per drop, they would be restricted to a small radius in the center
> of the city. I live a couple of miles up Hyde Park Road near the Santa Fe
> Institute. We have all underground utilities so I can’t see any way Ting
> will ever get up here. The $9 vote even if all 100 or so of my neighbors
> did it seems totally irrelevant.
>
> But my largest problem by far is issue of cherry picking and providing
> service in only select areas which for residential customers means where
> the rich people live. That leaves out most of the residents who are poor
> and live on the south side of the city. As I understand it, Ting would not
> be required to provide service to the schools, most of which are on the
> south side. I suppose one could take the position that as a private company
> Ting should be able to decide who it wants to attract as customers. On the
> other hands, then what is a “public” utility? This was a major issue when I
> was involved with the city trying to stop and then fix their 2010 telcom
> franchise ordinance. One interesting side note to that sad effort is that
> Qwest tried to block the franchise ordinance which would have allowed
> cherry picking arguing that they (Qwest) had to provide service for
> everyone and it would be unfair competition to allow other telcoms to pick
> their customers. This issue was part of the reasons Qwest sued the city
> over the ordinance.
>
> Santa Fe has an over 20 year history of making disastrous decisions on
> telcom that prevented putting in the infrastructure that would have created
> an environment where companies like Ting could come here and provide
> premium service while all residents would be guaranteed a decent affordable
> level of service. At this point I tend to agree with what I see as Sean’s
> view that progress will be incremental. Sad situation for most of the
> residents of Santa Fe, especially the school kids.
>
> I encourage any of you that are interested in this issue to get on the 1st
> mile list serve 

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Edward Angel]

I have a difficult time believing that Ting will decide to come here. Some of 
the reasons:

The pricing is very interesting. Right now I pay about  $60/month for 80 mbps 
downloads and 5-6 mbps uploads. The service has been very reliable. So it 
sounds good to have the possibility of getting gigabit speeds for only another 
$30/month. The other side of this is that the $60/month is about twice what I 
would pay for the speed I get elsewhere so it’s not clear that the biggest 
contribution Ting might make is to lower the monopolistic rates Comcast and 
Qwest get away with. More important is that I question how many households in 
Santa Fe really need gigabit speeds. FRIAMers are not representative of the SF 
population and even among us, how many of us need that speed..

The second issue is where the service would be available. At their range of 
costs per drop, they would be restricted to a small radius in the center of the 
city. I live a couple of miles up Hyde Park Road near the Santa Fe Institute. 
We have all underground utilities so I can’t see any way Ting will ever get up 
here. The $9 vote even if all 100 or so of my neighbors did it seems totally 
irrelevant. 

But my largest problem by far is issue of cherry picking and providing service 
in only select areas which for residential customers means where the rich 
people live. That leaves out most of the residents who are poor and live on the 
south side of the city. As I understand it, Ting would not be required to 
provide service to the schools, most of which are on the south side. I suppose 
one could take the position that as a private company Ting should be able to 
decide who it wants to attract as customers. On the other hands, then what is a 
“public” utility? This was a major issue when I was involved with the city 
trying to stop and then fix their 2010 telcom franchise ordinance. One 
interesting side note to that sad effort is that Qwest tried to block the 
franchise ordinance which would have allowed cherry picking arguing that they 
(Qwest) had to provide service for everyone and it would be unfair competition 
to allow other telcoms to pick their customers. This issue was part of the 
reasons Qwest sued the city over the ordinance. 

Santa Fe has an over 20 year history of making disastrous decisions on telcom 
that prevented putting in the infrastructure that would have created an 
environment where companies like Ting could come here and provide premium 
service while all residents would be guaranteed a decent affordable level of 
service. At this point I tend to agree with what I see as Sean’s view that 
progress will be incremental. Sad situation for most of the residents of Santa 
Fe, especially the school kids.

I encourage any of you that are interested in this issue to get on the 1st mile 
list serve (http://www.1st-mile.org/ ). There’s lots 
of information there about what is going on here and in other communities by 
people who have many years of experience working on these issues.

Ed
___

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) an...@cs.unm.edu 

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel 


> On Mar 5, 2016, at 11:26 AM, Nick Thompson  wrote:
> 
> Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe, 
>  
> I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how 
> this thing could possibly work.  Fibre?  Really?  
>  
> https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/ 
> 
>  
> Look at the second item in the blog.  Apparently they have an interesting 
> “foot-in-the-door” strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA.  
> They ask you to kick in $9 dollars to “vote” for your neighborhood.  
>  
> Also, at the city level, one can express interest.  See 
> https://ting.com/internet/townvote 
>  
> Nick 
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com 
> 

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Gillian Densmore]

Huh
Looks cool.
I can't wait for Santa Fe's internet options to stop sucking.

.It's 2016 no sane or sober person should put up with the kinds of crappy
internet options NM has.

Hell it's 2016 fiber to the home shoulda been a thing a long bliping time
ago all across the country.including every single home in NM.

Anyway thanks for the heads up ^_^
The sooner Ting's  very yummy looking set up gets here the better. ^_^


On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

> Gill,
>
>
>
> Look at their website and all will be answered.
>
>
>
>
>
> https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/
>
> or thereabouts.
>
>
>
> n
>
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>
> Clark University
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Gillian
> Densmore
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 05, 2016 2:24 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US
> cities
>
>
>
> Nick know if Ting is doing fiber optic?
>
> Also do you know if that about 1G pers a second is both direction?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe,
>
>
>
> I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how
> this thing could possibly work.  Fibre?  Really?
>
>
>
> https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/
>
>
>
> Look at the second item in the blog.  Apparently they have an interesting
> “foot-in-the-door” strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA.
> They ask you to kick in $9 dollars to “vote” for your neighborhood.
>
>
>
> Also, at the city level, one can express interest.  See
> https://ting.com/internet/townvote
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Nick Thompson]

Gill, 

 

Look at their website and all will be answered.  

 

 

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/

or thereabouts. 

 

n

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

 <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> 
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2016 2:24 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <friam@redfish.com>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

 

Nick know if Ting is doing fiber optic?

Also do you know if that about 1G pers a second is both direction?

 

 

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net 
<mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > wrote:

Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe, 

 

I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how this 
thing could possibly work.  Fibre?  Really?  

 

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/

 

Look at the second item in the blog.  Apparently they have an interesting 
“foot-in-the-door” strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA.  They 
ask you to kick in $9 dollars to “vote” for your neighborhood.  

 

Also, at the city level, one can express interest.  See 
https://ting.com/internet/townvote

 

Nick 

 


 


 



 



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Gillian Densmore]

Nick know if Ting is doing fiber optic?

Also do you know if that about 1G pers a second is both direction?



On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Nick Thompson 
wrote:

> Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe,
>
>
>
> I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how
> this thing could possibly work.  Fibre?  Really?
>
>
>
> https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/
>
>
>
> Look at the second item in the blog.  Apparently they have an interesting
> “foot-in-the-door” strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA.
> They ask you to kick in $9 dollars to “vote” for your neighborhood.
>
>
>
> Also, at the city level, one can express interest.  See
> https://ting.com/internet/townvote
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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>

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[FRIAM] Ting Internet | Crazy fast fiber Internet for US cities

[Nick Thompson]

Dear Friammers, particularly those in Santa Fe, 

 

I have been rummaging around on the Ting Website trying to figure out how
this thing could possibly work.  Fibre?  Really?  

 

https://ting.com/blog/internet/charlottesville/

 

Look at the second item in the blog.  Apparently they have an interesting
"foot-in-the-door" strategy, which they are using in Charlottesvill, VA.
They ask you to kick in $9 dollars to "vote" for your neighborhood.  

 

Also, at the city level, one can express interest.  See
https://ting.com/internet/townvote

 

Nick 

 


 


 

 


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Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet

[Gary Schiltz]

I don't blame folks for lamenting the sad state of internet in Santa Fe,
nor in the rest of the USA. On the other hand, down here in Ecuador, I'd be
ecstatic to get 5mbps down for under $100. I understand that given a
connection to fiber, the unshared bandwidth itself costs $120 mbps/month.
The small ISP that I get my connection through buys 17 mb/s per month via
fiber and divides it up among roughly 80 customers, capped at about 2 mb/s
each. If everyone is maxing out their connection (worst case), they get
17/80 mbps, or about 250 kbps. It's usually better than that, but it often
is that bad. The ISP pays $120*17=$2040 per month for the raw bandwidth,
and if each of his clients pays their $35 every month, he makes roughly
$800 for the month (but then, there are a lot of deadbeats). Good thing he
also has a cybercafe, keeps bees and sells honey...

On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:15 PM, Barry MacKichan <
barry.mackic...@mackichan.com> wrote:

> What I remember is what is on their web site: $89 for home, $139 for
> business. The $50 was mentioned as the difference. It sounds like I had the
> highest download speed in the group currently, 80mb/s, but still I am
> willing to commit to switching to Ting. In fact, I’d commit to the business
> rate. It would give me 12 times the download speed and 58 times the upload
> speed, but mostly it would give us much more reliable service.
>
> --Barry
>

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Re: [FRIAM] Ting Internet

[Barry MacKichan]

What I remember is what is on their web site: $89 for home, $139 for 
business. The $50 was mentioned as the difference. It sounds like I had 
the highest download speed in the group currently, 80mb/s, but still I 
am willing to commit to switching to Ting. In fact, I’d commit to the 
business rate. It would give me 12 times the download speed and 58 times 
the upload speed, but mostly it would give us much more reliable 
service.


--Barry


On 3 Mar 2016, at 16:09, Nick Thompson wrote:


Hi, everybody,



Many of you will recall that a representative of Ting Internet visited 
with
"the local chapter" last Friday, hosted by my friend Sean Moody, who 
works
for the City.  Ting is a Canadian business whose business model 
includes
bringing fiber to cities like Santa Fe.  I asked Sean to get back to 
us, and

his report appears below.



If I understand correctly, the crucial issue seems to be whether 
enough of
our fellow citizens are sufficiently fed up with our current service 
to make
a switch.  I may have mis-heard, but I thought I heard you guys 
bandying
around a number like $50/mo. With   I am certainly in at that price.  
Does

any of you remember that conversation?



See below,



Nick



Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University


http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/



From: MOODY, SEAN [mailto:sxmo...@ci.santa-fe.nm.us]
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2016 3:18 PM
To: Nick Thompson 
Subject: Ting Internet



Hi Nick,

Please share with FRIAM:



Thanks to everyone for the collegial reception. The visit was quite
successful. I think Adam got a sufficient taste of Santa Fe to help
 Ting make a decision. And I got enough 
insight
into their business model to understand what the city would need to do 
to
rank high on their list of prospective locations. The two factors 
driving an

investment decision are the capital expense per service drop, which
typically ranges between $2,000 and $8,000 depending on local 
conditions,

and the expected "take rate", or ratio of subscribers-to-drops along a
street or fiber segment, which ranges between 8% and 40% depending on 
the

community's level of satisfaction with current providers.

Our next challenge is to prove to Ting that the take rate will be
sufficient, and to provide the regulatory environment that will keep 
utility

construction costs under control.

I was extremely impressed by this particular company. Fundamental to 
their
thinking is the reproducibility of their model across many different 
urban
environments. Hence their taking the time to understand Santa Fe. I 
honestly

think they've got a page or two on Google Fiber in this regard.



Lastly, you FRIAM folks may appreciate the graphic below. It 
illustrates the

correlation between broadband speed and household income. The report
  from which it is 
extracted is

one of the few I have encountered approaching the issue objectively.



Sean








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