Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ? -J On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40 https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution. http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1 I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved. https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood? -J. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove -- Joe FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of life. Hence the infantile symptomatology. But it can be aggravated during adolescence, say, by the kinds of things Jochen mentions. Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self". It is not about self analysis. It is almost impossible to read by lay persons, including yours truly. It is full of language like "the hypercathexis of the narcissistic libido". Also, people who read it often (mistakenly) start feeling that they have the disorder. Frank Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden" wrote: > If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to > the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ? > > -J > > On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: > > In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump > and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and > didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this > must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he > decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40 > https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I > > I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little > bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York > Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must > have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move > from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution. > http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new- > york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1 > > I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating > experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic > because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality > you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants > to be loved. > https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades- > later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/ > 2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html > > They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little > attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his > parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or > pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and > from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a > personality order can develop, too little love in childhood? > > -J. > > > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > -- > Joe > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Hi, Frank, Isn’t that an example of itself? “This book was written about me”. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:00 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of life. Hence the infantile symptomatology. But it can be aggravated during adolescence, say, by the kinds of things Jochen mentions. Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self". It is not about self analysis. It is almost impossible to read by lay persons, including yours truly. It is full of language like "the hypercathexis of the narcissistic libido". Also, people who read it often (mistakenly) start feeling that they have the disorder. Frank Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden" mailto:j...@qri.us> > wrote: If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ? -J On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40 https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution. http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1 I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved. https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood? -J. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove -- Joe FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Nick, No. "Self" has a technical meaning in psychoanalysis. The tiny baby experiences the world as self-(m)other after a certain amount of separation and individuation. I've got to stop giving lectures on this subject. I'm already in over my head. Framk Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 17, 2017 3:28 PM, "Nick Thompson" wrote: > Hi, Frank, > > > > Isn’t that an example of itself? > > > > “This book was written about me”. > > > > Nick > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank > Wimberly > *Sent:* Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:00 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > friam@redfish.com> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders > > > > Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of life. > Hence the infantile symptomatology. But it can be aggravated during > adolescence, say, by the kinds of things > > Jochen mentions. Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the > pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self". It is not about self > analysis. > > > > It is almost impossible to read by lay persons, including yours truly. It > is full of language like "the hypercathexis of the narcissistic libido". > Also, people who read it often (mistakenly) start feeling that they have > the disorder. > > > > Frank > > > > > > > > Frank Wimberly > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > > > On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden" wrote: > > If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to > the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ? > > -J > > > > On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: > > In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump > and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and > didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this > must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he > decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40 > > https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I > > > > I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little > bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York > Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must > have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move > from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution. > > http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new- > york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1 > > I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating > experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic > because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality > you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants > to be loved. > https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades- > later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/ > 2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html > > > > They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little > attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his > parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or > pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and > from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a > personality order can develop, too little love in childhood? > > > > -J. > > > > > > > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > -- > > Joe > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Someone pointed out that Trump never laughs. Not at himself, not at others, not at his own jokes, not at anything. -- rec -- On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 5:32 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Nick, > > No. "Self" has a technical meaning in psychoanalysis. The tiny baby > experiences the world as self-(m)other after a certain amount of separation > and individuation. I've got to stop giving lectures on this subject. I'm > already in over my head. > > Framk > > Frank Wimberly > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > On Jan 17, 2017 3:28 PM, "Nick Thompson" > wrote: > >> Hi, Frank, >> >> >> >> Isn’t that an example of itself? >> >> >> >> “This book was written about me”. >> >> >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> Nicholas S. Thompson >> >> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology >> >> Clark University >> >> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ >> >> >> >> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank >> Wimberly >> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:00 PM >> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >> friam@redfish.com> >> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders >> >> >> >> Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of life. >> Hence the infantile symptomatology. But it can be aggravated during >> adolescence, say, by the kinds of things >> >> Jochen mentions. Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the >> pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self". It is not about self >> analysis. >> >> >> >> It is almost impossible to read by lay persons, including yours truly. >> It is full of language like "the hypercathexis of the narcissistic libido". >> Also, people who read it often (mistakenly) start feeling that they have >> the disorder. >> >> >> >> Frank >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Frank Wimberly >> Phone (505) 670-9918 >> >> >> >> On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden" wrote: >> >> If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to >> the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ? >> >> -J >> >> >> >> On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: >> >> In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump >> and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and >> didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this >> must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he >> decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40 >> >> https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I >> >> >> >> I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little >> bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York >> Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must >> have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move >> from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution. >> >> http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york >> -military-academy-2016-12?op=1 >> >> I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating >> experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic >> because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality >> you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants >> to be loved. >> https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-late >> r-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/ >> 01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html >> >> >> >> They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little >> attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his >> parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or >> pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and >> from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a >> personality order can develop, too little love in childhood? >> >> >> >> -J. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> FRIAM A
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
I could imagine something like this unfolding.. 1) Humor him, play to his ego. Get him to set expectations about his power and to think it is easy. Kiss the ring. 2) Once `in’, do what is possible to seed disagreements within the administration in the hopes the conflict will exacerbate his need for social dominance to the point they begin to isolate him. 3) Create hyperpartisanism to make government more dysfunctional and cause despair amongst the people that supported him and the Republican Congress. Let ACA fall, allow all manner of disasters in foreign policy to accumulate. Meanwhile, direct money into the (good) states and create even more productivity in those places while bleeding the rest dry. Provide a Come to Jesus moment. From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:33 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders Nick, No. "Self" has a technical meaning in psychoanalysis. The tiny baby experiences the world as self-(m)other after a certain amount of separation and individuation. I've got to stop giving lectures on this subject. I'm already in over my head. Framk Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 17, 2017 3:28 PM, "Nick Thompson" mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net>> wrote: Hi, Frank, Isn’t that an example of itself? “This book was written about me”. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:00 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of life. Hence the infantile symptomatology. But it can be aggravated during adolescence, say, by the kinds of things Jochen mentions. Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self". It is not about self analysis. It is almost impossible to read by lay persons, including yours truly. It is full of language like "the hypercathexis of the narcissistic libido". Also, people who read it often (mistakenly) start feeling that they have the disorder. Frank Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden" mailto:j...@qri.us>> wrote: If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ? -J On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40 https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution. http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1 I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved. https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood? -J. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove -- Joe ==
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
http://www.cagle.com/michael-reagan/2016/09/the-not-so-great-debate http://branchtoon.com/wp-content/toons/current/donald-trump-rancor-baby-revised-web-8-26-15.jpg Insightful cartoonists? Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 17, 2017 3:37 PM, "Roger Critchlow" wrote: > Someone pointed out that Trump never laughs. Not at himself, not at > others, not at his own jokes, not at anything. > > -- rec -- > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 5:32 PM, Frank Wimberly > wrote: > >> Nick, >> >> No. "Self" has a technical meaning in psychoanalysis. The tiny baby >> experiences the world as self-(m)other after a certain amount of separation >> and individuation. I've got to stop giving lectures on this subject. I'm >> already in over my head. >> >> Framk >> >> Frank Wimberly >> Phone (505) 670-9918 >> >> On Jan 17, 2017 3:28 PM, "Nick Thompson" >> wrote: >> >>> Hi, Frank, >>> >>> >>> >>> Isn’t that an example of itself? >>> >>> >>> >>> “This book was written about me”. >>> >>> >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> >>> >>> Nicholas S. Thompson >>> >>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology >>> >>> Clark University >>> >>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Frank >>> Wimberly >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:00 PM >>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>> friam@redfish.com> >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of life. >>> Hence the infantile symptomatology. But it can be aggravated during >>> adolescence, say, by the kinds of things >>> >>> Jochen mentions. Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the >>> pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self". It is not about self >>> analysis. >>> >>> >>> >>> It is almost impossible to read by lay persons, including yours truly. >>> It is full of language like "the hypercathexis of the narcissistic libido". >>> Also, people who read it often (mistakenly) start feeling that they have >>> the disorder. >>> >>> >>> >>> Frank >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Frank Wimberly >>> Phone (505) 670-9918 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden" wrote: >>> >>> If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent >>> to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ? >>> >>> -J >>> >>> >>> >>> On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: >>> >>> In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump >>> and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and >>> didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this >>> must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he >>> decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40 >>> >>> https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I >>> >>> >>> >>> I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little >>> bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York >>> Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must >>> have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move >>> from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution. >>> >>> http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york >>> -military-academy-2016-12?op=1 >>> >>> I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating >>> experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic >>> because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality >>> you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants >>> to be loved. >>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-late >>> r-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/ >>> 01
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Yes, certainly, the Washington Post says his father sent him there because he showed signs of mischievous behavior or misbehavior. Yet the 13 year old Donald must have felt totally lonely and abandoned when he arrived in NYMA, as if someone pulled out the rug under him. His inflated, grandiose sense of self could be a compensation for deep feelings of shame and abandonment. I wouldn't be surprised if you meet an insecure 13 year old boy at the core of his personality, a child longing for the love of the parents who abandoned him.https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/lifestyle/style/young-donald-trump-military-school/2016/06/22/f0b3b164-317c-11e6-8758-d58e76e11b12_story.html -J. Original message From: Joe Spinden Date: 1/17/17 22:49 (GMT+01:00) To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ? -J On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40 https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution. http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1 I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved. https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood? -J. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove -- Joe FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
“You probably think this song is about you” — Carly Simon --Barry On 17 Jan 2017, at 15:28, Nick Thompson wrote: Hi, Frank, Isn’t that an example of itself? “This book was written about me”. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2017 3:00 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders Yes, pathological narcissism starts during the first two years of life. Hence the infantile symptomatology. But it can be aggravated during adolescence, say, by the kinds of things Jochen mentions. Heinz Kohut wrote a book on the etiology of the pathology in a book called "Analysis of the Self". It is not about self analysis. It is almost impossible to read by lay persons, including yours truly. It is full of language like "the hypercathexis of the narcissistic libido". Also, people who read it often (mistakenly) start feeling that they have the disorder. Frank Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 17, 2017 2:49 PM, "Joe Spinden" mailto:j...@qri.us> > wrote: If you want to psychoanalyze Trump, you might start before he was sent to the NYMA. I.e., WHY did his father send him there ? -J On 1/17/17 2:43 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote: In 2011 there was a press conference where president Obama roasted Trump and mocked about his competence. Trump was sitting in the audience and didn't laugh. For a person with a narcissistic personality disorder this must have been a traumatic experience. Maybe this was the moment where he decided to take revenge no matter at what cost? It starts at 2:40 https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=ohfN1_cjm5I I think if we really want to understand him we have to go back a little bit more. When Trump was 13, his father sent him to the NYMA (New York Military Academy). It is a rigid school which values discipline. He must have been very unhappy to be the only of 5 siblings to be there, to move from a rich house in Queens, NY, to this impersonal and strict institution. http://www.businessinsider.de/donald-trump-attended-new-york-military-academy-2016-12?op=1 I guess his personality must have been deformed by this humiliating experience. Was this the moment when he decided to be selfish and egoistic because his parents didn't care about him? At the core of his personality you can probably still meet the lonely and insecure 13 year old that wants to be loved. https://www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/politics/decades-later-disagreement-over-young-trumps-military-academy-post/2016/01/09/907a67b2-b3e0-11e5-a842-0feb51d1d124_story.html They say narcissism can develop if a child gets too much or too little attention. The young Donald apparently got too little love from his parents, and he learned that he can be loved if he wins, pretends, or pretends to win. Lies obviously have been helpful to get what he wants, and from 13 to 18 no parents were there for him to guide him. Is this how a personality order can develop, too little love in childhood? -J. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove -- Joe FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
I found this opinion refreshing: Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/ I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating phenomenology with ontology: > Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense of > entitlement? > Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality > disorder. > Wife: How do you know he has this illness? > Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of > entitlement. But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly unable the man is to fill the role of President. But we should be careful not to abandon our own principles in the process. -- ☣ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And what is this large white area on his chest x-ray? He has lung cancer. How do you know? Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a positive chest x-ray. Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505 wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918 -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders I found this opinion refreshing: Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/ I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating phenomenology with ontology: > Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense of > entitlement? > Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality > disorder. > Wife: How do you know he has this illness? > Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of > entitlement. But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly unable the man is to fill the role of President. But we should be careful not to abandon our own principles in the process. -- ☣ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
I apologize, Glen. Please replace "cancer" with "pneumonia". Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 18, 2017 6:16 PM, "Frank Wimberly" wrote: > Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And what is > this large white area on his chest x-ray? > > He has lung cancer. > > How do you know? > > Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a > positive chest x-ray. > > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu > Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918 > > -Original Message- > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ? > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders > > > I found this opinion refreshing: > > Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect > > http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic- > personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/ > > I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating > phenomenology with ontology: > > > Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense > of entitlement? > > Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality > disorder. > > Wife: How do you know he has this illness? > > Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of > entitlement. > > But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's > wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever > tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly > unable the man is to fill the role of President. But we should be careful > not to abandon our own principles in the process. > > -- > ☣ glen > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
No worries. The thing is, though, with cancer and pneumonia we do have well evidenced, reproducible, mechanistic hypotheses. That makes those hypotheses way more robust and trustworthy than personality disorders. So while there may be some deeply embedded circular reasoning in any diagnosis, the circular reasoning in purely phenomenal diagnoses is much more obvious. Granted, I'm a big fan of parallax, as I've yapped about here before. When a mechanism is unavailable, we can approach it through circumscribing a small region of behavior space with many purely phenomenal models, which is why these diagnoses need multiple attributes. But there's still no hiding from the circularity. Also note that I regularly defend circular reasoning ala Robert Rosen, autopoiesis, non-well-founded sets, etc. But I wouldn't entertain a circular justification if there were good reasons to believe a well-founded explanation was out there somewhere. On January 18, 2017 5:35:24 PM PST, Frank Wimberly wrote: >I apologize, Glen. Please replace "cancer" with "pneumonia". > >Frank Wimberly >Phone (505) 670-9918 > >On Jan 18, 2017 6:16 PM, "Frank Wimberly" wrote: > >> Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And >what is >> this large white area on his chest x-ray? >> >> He has lung cancer. >> >> How do you know? >> >> Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has >a >> positive chest x-ray. >> > Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a >sense >> of entitlement? >> > Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic >personality >> disorder. >> > Wife: How do you know he has this illness? >> > Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense >of >> entitlement. -- ⛧glen⛧ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
About 30 years ago there was a long article in the New Yorker about problems of mental health diagnosis and treatment. It was based on a real patient who was given the fictitious name of Sylvia Frumpkin. The consensus diagnosis for her was schizophrenia but one Asian Indian resident said her diagnosis was bipolar disorder. When he was asked why not scizophrenia he said that it was because there was no evidence of severe delusions. His colleagues asked about the fact that she said she was married to Mickey Mouse. His reply was, "Who's that?". The point was that cultural differences between Dr. and patient can cause communication problems. Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 18, 2017 7:58 PM, "gepr" wrote: > > > No worries. The thing is, though, with cancer and pneumonia we do have > well evidenced, reproducible, mechanistic hypotheses. That makes those > hypotheses way more robust and trustworthy than personality disorders. So > while there may be some deeply embedded circular reasoning in any > diagnosis, the circular reasoning in purely phenomenal diagnoses is much > more obvious. > > Granted, I'm a big fan of parallax, as I've yapped about here before. > When a mechanism is unavailable, we can approach it through circumscribing > a small region of behavior space with many purely phenomenal models, which > is why these diagnoses need multiple attributes. But there's still no > hiding from the circularity. > > Also note that I regularly defend circular reasoning ala Robert Rosen, > autopoiesis, non-well-founded sets, etc. But I wouldn't entertain a > circular justification if there were good reasons to believe a well-founded > explanation was out there somewhere. > > > On January 18, 2017 5:35:24 PM PST, Frank Wimberly > wrote: > >I apologize, Glen. Please replace "cancer" with "pneumonia". > > > >Frank Wimberly > >Phone (505) 670-9918 > > > >On Jan 18, 2017 6:16 PM, "Frank Wimberly" wrote: > > > >> Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And > >what is > >> this large white area on his chest x-ray? > >> > >> He has lung cancer. > >> > >> How do you know? > >> > >> Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has > >a > >> positive chest x-ray. > > >> > Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a > >sense > >> of entitlement? > >> > Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic > >personality > >> disorder. > >> > Wife: How do you know he has this illness? > >> > Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense > >of > >> entitlement. > > -- > ⛧glen⛧ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
All, Here is your assignment for tomorrow. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281410347_Comparative_psychology_and_the_recursive_structure_of_filter_explanations There will be a quiz: What is the difference between a circular explanation and a recursive one. What is the key dimension that determines whether an explanation is viciously circular? Is the virtuus dormitiva viciously circular? Why? Why not? Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 6:35 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders I apologize, Glen. Please replace "cancer" with "pneumonia". Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 18, 2017 6:16 PM, "Frank Wimberly" mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> > wrote: Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And what is this large white area on his chest x-ray? He has lung cancer. How do you know? Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a positive chest x-ray. Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505 wimber...@gmail.com <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com> wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu <mailto:wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu> Phone: (505) 995-8715Cell: (505) 670-9918 -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> ] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders I found this opinion refreshing: Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/ I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating phenomenology with ontology: > Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense of > entitlement? > Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality > disorder. > Wife: How do you know he has this illness? > Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of > entitlement. But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly unable the man is to fill the role of President. But we should be careful not to abandon our own principles in the process. -- ☣ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
But Frank doesn't it normally go a bit more like this: Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? I hypothesize that he has pneumonia - a chest x-ray is a cheap and fairly reliable test of that hypothesis. Then let's do a chest x-ray! Well ma'am, the x-ray shows white lumps, supporting the hypothesis. Pneumonia is often caused by a bacterial infection, and because you say he didn't have a cold previously, I think that is the case here. We can test that hypothesis with the administration of certain antibiotics. Then let's get those antibiotics! Well ma'am, I see that after taking the antibiotics, the white lumps, difficulty breathing, and coughs resolved. Based on that, I feel confident that my hypothesis was correct, and that your husband's pneumonia is now cured. Wait a minute. How do you know he had pneumonia? I don't really. But the antibiotics seem to have helped, and that leads me both to have confidence in my original hypothesis and, ironically, to not really care that much about the hypothesis. All that really matters is that your husband is better, and that I am likely to give antibiotics again if I meet someone that presents in the same manner. Oh. P.S. See also Nick's paper, for quite different issues. Nick is interested fundamental issues regarding what gets to count as an explanation. But note that the discussion above any causality is quite different than in the prior anecdotes. In this case, taking-an-xray explains why we are looking at images of white lumps, and taking-antibiotics explains why the symptoms resolved. It matters not a bit if the entity referred to as pneumonia is "real", if it is mere "symptomology" or a viable "causal" agent responsible for the original difficulties, etc. Not that those are not interesting questions, just that they are (potentially) irrelevant to this particular interaction. --- Eric P. Charles, Ph.D. Supervisory Survey Statistician U.S. Marine Corps On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And what is > this large white area on his chest x-ray? > > He has lung cancer. > > How do you know? > > Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a > positive chest x-ray. > > Frank C. Wimberly > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu > Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918 > > -Original Message- > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ? > Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders > > > I found this opinion refreshing: > > Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect > > http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic- > personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/ > > I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating > phenomenology with ontology: > > > Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a sense > of entitlement? > > Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality > disorder. > > Wife: How do you know he has this illness? > > Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of > entitlement. > > But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's > wrong with our culture, I can sympathize with the idea of using whatever > tool we might have available to _demonstrate_ to others how thoroughly > unable the man is to fill the role of President. But we should be careful > not to abandon our own principles in the process. > > -- > ☣ glen > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Point taken, Eric. That is more realistic. I was making the point that even for non-psychiatric problems the symptoms (partly) define the disease. There are tests like biopsies and cultures of organisms that confirm the diagnoses of those diagnoses. Some psychiatric disorders can be confirmed by biopsy (e.g. Alzheimer's) but they are often done posthumously. In my mother-in-law's case they said they thought she had pneumonia. I don't remember the details but I know that they tried to drain her chest but couldn't even insert a tube. Four weeks after the first symptom she died. Of course they had changed the diagnosis early on. Northwestern Memorial Hospital, 1984. Nick will, I hope, explain the paper at Friam. Frank Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 19, 2017 6:48 AM, "Eric Charles" wrote: > But Frank doesn't it normally go a bit more like this: > > Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? > > I hypothesize that he has pneumonia - a chest x-ray is a cheap and fairly > reliable test of that hypothesis. > > Then let's do a chest x-ray! > > Well ma'am, the x-ray shows white lumps, supporting the hypothesis. > Pneumonia is often caused by a bacterial infection, and because you say he > didn't have a cold previously, I think that is the case here. We can test > that hypothesis with the administration of certain antibiotics. > > Then let's get those antibiotics! > > Well ma'am, I see that after taking the antibiotics, the white lumps, > difficulty breathing, and coughs resolved. Based on that, I feel confident > that my hypothesis was correct, and that your husband's pneumonia is now > cured. > > Wait a minute. How do you know he had pneumonia? > > I don't really. But the antibiotics seem to have helped, and that leads me > both to have confidence in my original hypothesis and, ironically, to not > really care that much about the hypothesis. All that really matters is > that your husband is better, and that I am likely to give antibiotics again > if I meet someone that presents in the same manner. > > Oh. > > P.S. See also Nick's paper, for quite different issues. Nick is interested > fundamental issues regarding what gets to count as an explanation. But note > that the discussion above any causality is quite different than in the > prior anecdotes. In this case, taking-an-xray explains why we are looking > at images of white lumps, and taking-antibiotics explains why the symptoms > resolved. It matters not a bit if the entity referred to as pneumonia is > "real", if it is mere "symptomology" or a viable "causal" agent responsible > for the original difficulties, etc. Not that those are not interesting > questions, just that they are (potentially) irrelevant to this particular > interaction. > > > > --- > Eric P. Charles, Ph.D. > Supervisory Survey Statistician > U.S. Marine Corps > > > On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Frank Wimberly > wrote: > >> Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And what is >> this large white area on his chest x-ray? >> >> He has lung cancer. >> >> How do you know? >> >> Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a >> positive chest x-ray. >> >> Frank C. Wimberly >> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz >> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >> >> wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu >> Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918 >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ? >> Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders >> >> >> I found this opinion refreshing: >> >> Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect >> >> http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/ >> narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/ >> >> I particularly liked the (strawman) circularity caricatured by conflating >> phenomenology with ontology: >> >> > Wife: Why is my husband so self-important; why does he have such a >> sense of entitlement? >> > Psychiatrist: Because he has an illness called narcissistic personality >> disorder. >> > Wife: How do you know he has this illness? >> > Psychiatrist: Because he is so self-important and has such a sense of >> entitlement. >> >> But, personally, seeing [gag] Trump as the epitome of everything that's >> wrong with our culture, I can sympathize wi
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Aren't you now talking about different reasoning models/tasks:
Classification
Diagnosis
Hypothetical Reasoning
Bayesian
Fuzzy logic
etc.
On the other hand I've always felt the medical community named too many
diseases and conditions after their symptoms usually in a hi-falutin
format rather than an actual cause, e.g. abdominal aortic aneurysm or
after the person identifying it, e.g. Alois Alzheimer. Which get's back
to Glen's circularity.
Robert C
On 1/19/17 7:14 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
Point taken, Eric. That is more realistic. I was making the point
that even for non-psychiatric problems the symptoms (partly) define
the disease. There are tests like biopsies and cultures of organisms
that confirm the diagnoses of those diagnoses. Some psychiatric
disorders can be confirmed by biopsy (e.g. Alzheimer's) but they are
often done posthumously.
In my mother-in-law's case they said they thought she had pneumonia.
I don't remember the details but I know that they tried to drain her
chest but couldn't even insert a tube. Four weeks after the first
symptom she died. Of course they had changed the diagnosis early on.
Northwestern Memorial Hospital, 1984.
Nick will, I hope, explain the paper at Friam.
Frank
Frank Wimberly
Phone (505) 670-9918
On Jan 19, 2017 6:48 AM, "Eric Charles"
<mailto:eric.phillip.char...@gmail.com>> wrote:
But Frank doesn't it normally go a bit more like this:
Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time?
I hypothesize that he has pneumonia - a chest x-ray is a cheap and
fairly reliable test of that hypothesis.
Then let's do a chest x-ray!
Well ma'am, the x-ray shows white lumps, supporting
the hypothesis. Pneumonia is often caused by a bacterial
infection, and because you say he didn't have a cold previously, I
think that is the case here. We can test that hypothesis with the
administration of certain antibiotics.
Then let's get those antibiotics!
Well ma'am, I see that after taking the antibiotics, the white
lumps, difficulty breathing, and coughs resolved. Based on that, I
feel confident that my hypothesis was correct, and that your
husband's pneumonia is now cured.
Wait a minute. How do you know he had pneumonia?
I don't really. But the antibiotics seem to have helped, and
that leads me both to have confidence in my original hypothesis
and, ironically, to not really care that much about the
hypothesis. All that really matters is that your husband is
better, and that I am likely to give antibiotics again if I meet
someone that presents in the same manner.
Oh.
P.S. See also Nick's paper, for quite different issues. Nick is
interested fundamental issues regarding what gets to count as an
explanation. But note that the discussion above any causality is
quite different than in the prior anecdotes. In this case,
taking-an-xray explains why we are looking at images of white
lumps, and taking-antibiotics explains why the symptoms resolved.
It matters not a bit if the entity referred to as pneumonia is
"real", if it is mere "symptomology" or a viable "causal" agent
responsible for the original difficulties, etc. Not that those are
not interesting questions, just that they are (potentially)
irrelevant to this particular interaction.
---
Eric P. Charles, Ph.D.
Supervisory Survey Statistician
U.S. Marine Corps
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Frank Wimberly
mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time?
And what is this large white area on his chest x-ray?
He has lung cancer.
How do you know?
Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and
he has a positive chest x-ray.
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
wimber...@gmail.com <mailto:wimber...@gmail.com>
wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu <mailto:wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu>
Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell:
(505) 670-9918
-Original Message-
From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com
<mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com>] On Behalf Of glen ?
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2017 5:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
I found this opinion refreshing:
Narcissistic Personality Disorder and the President-Elect
http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-president-elect/
<http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2017/01/16/narcissistic-personality-disorder-and-the-pre
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Post hoc ergo propter hoc? -- Owen On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote: > Aren't you now talking about different reasoning models/tasks: > Classification > Diagnosis > Hypothetical Reasoning > Bayesian > Fuzzy logic > etc. > > On the other hand I've always felt the medical community named too many > diseases and conditions after their symptoms usually in a hi-falutin format > rather than an actual cause, e.g. abdominal aortic aneurysm or after the > person identifying it, e.g. Alois Alzheimer. Which get's back to Glen's > circularity. > > Robert C > > > On 1/19/17 7:14 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > > Point taken, Eric. That is more realistic. I was making the point that > even for non-psychiatric problems the symptoms (partly) define the > disease. There are tests like biopsies and cultures of organisms that > confirm the diagnoses of those diagnoses. Some psychiatric disorders can > be confirmed by biopsy (e.g. Alzheimer's) but they are often done > posthumously. > > In my mother-in-law's case they said they thought she had pneumonia. I > don't remember the details but I know that they tried to drain her chest > but couldn't even insert a tube. Four weeks after the first symptom she > died. Of course they had changed the diagnosis early on. Northwestern > Memorial Hospital, 1984. > > Nick will, I hope, explain the paper at Friam. > > Frank > > Frank Wimberly > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > On Jan 19, 2017 6:48 AM, "Eric Charles" > wrote: > >> But Frank doesn't it normally go a bit more like this: >> >> Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? >> >> I hypothesize that he has pneumonia - a chest x-ray is a cheap and fairly >> reliable test of that hypothesis. >> >> Then let's do a chest x-ray! >> >> Well ma'am, the x-ray shows white lumps, supporting the hypothesis. >> Pneumonia is often caused by a bacterial infection, and because you say he >> didn't have a cold previously, I think that is the case here. We can test >> that hypothesis with the administration of certain antibiotics. >> >> Then let's get those antibiotics! >> >> Well ma'am, I see that after taking the antibiotics, the white lumps, >> difficulty breathing, and coughs resolved. Based on that, I feel confident >> that my hypothesis was correct, and that your husband's pneumonia is now >> cured. >> >> Wait a minute. How do you know he had pneumonia? >> >> I don't really. But the antibiotics seem to have helped, and that leads >> me both to have confidence in my original hypothesis and, ironically, to >> not really care that much about the hypothesis. All that really matters is >> that your husband is better, and that I am likely to give antibiotics again >> if I meet someone that presents in the same manner. >> >> Oh. >> >> P.S. See also Nick's paper, for quite different issues. Nick is >> interested fundamental issues regarding what gets to count as an >> explanation. But note that the discussion above any causality is quite >> different than in the prior anecdotes. In this case, >> taking-an-xray explains why we are looking at images of white lumps, and >> taking-antibiotics explains why the symptoms resolved. It matters not a bit >> if the entity referred to as pneumonia is "real", if it is mere >> "symptomology" or a viable "causal" agent responsible for the original >> difficulties, etc. Not that those are not interesting questions, just that >> they are (potentially) irrelevant to this particular interaction. >> >> >> >> --- >> Eric P. Charles, Ph.D. >> Supervisory Survey Statistician >> U.S. Marine Corps >> >> On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Frank Wimberly >> wrote: >> >>> Why is my husband unable to breathe and coughs all the time? And what >>> is this large white area on his chest x-ray? >>> >>> He has lung cancer. >>> >>> How do you know? >>> >>> Because he has difficulty breathing, he coughs constantly, and he has a >>> positive chest x-ray. >>> >>> Frank C. Wimberly >>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz >>> Santa Fe, NM 87505 >>> >>> wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu >>> Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918 >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ? >>>
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
On 01/18/2017 07:38 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Here is your assignment for tomorrow. I am a (proud) C student. So, of course, I will never meet your deadlines. 8^) > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281410347_Comparative_psychology_and_the_recursive_structure_of_filter_explanations > > There will be a quiz: What is the difference between a circular explanation > and a recursive one. What is the key dimension that determines whether an > explanation is viciously circular? Is the virtuus dormitiva viciously > circular? Why? Why not? It would help if you would distill your argument, here, rather than muddying it up with the natural selection, adaptation example. Would you mind doing that? -- ☣ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Glen, I'm not sure if Nick can do that. However, he is very good at clarifying issues by telling me how I am wrong. With that in mind, I'll attempt a summary, of which I am fairly confident: Circular explanations occur when a description of the phenomenon in question is offered as an explanation of said phenomenon. For example, when asked "why are there only small peanuts in this jar?" it would be circular to answer "because there are small peanuts in the jar." Note that "because there are small peanuts in the jar" could be a valuable explanation for many other questions, but not for that question, because in that context it is simply restating the thing-to-be-explained. There is a class of explanations - recursive explanations - that often get mistaken for circular explanations. Such explanations use the description offered in the original question as part of an explanation, but add additional information that moves the path of inquiry forward. A filter explanation is an example of a recursive explanation. For example, when asked "why are there only small peanuts in this jar?" it would *not* be circular to answer "because there jar was filled using small-peanut-filter, which only allows small peanuts to fall through." (And it is in exactly this way that, the Theory of Evolution by Means of Natural Selection is *not* circular, as it is commonly accused of being, when it is understood properly... which it frequently isn't, even by its prominent proponents.) Now, the shaky part, where I wonder why Nick thought it was relevant to this conversation: "Why does Trump appear to have Narcissistic Personality Disorder?" Circular - "Because he has the symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder" (This takes us no where beyond that he has the symptoms, because the thing-to-be-explained was the appearing-to-have-NPD.) Not-circular - "Because he has a thing that causes those symptoms." (This doesn't add much, but it does add something. It eliminates possibilities such as his acting that way as a joke, or due to drugs, or that if we viewed him in a larger light we wouldn't see the symptoms at all, etc.) --- Eric P. Charles, Ph.D. Supervisory Survey Statistician U.S. Marine Corps On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:17 PM, glen ☣ wrote: > On 01/18/2017 07:38 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > > Here is your assignment for tomorrow. > > I am a (proud) C student. So, of course, I will never meet your > deadlines. 8^) > > > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281410347_ > Comparative_psychology_and_the_recursive_structure_of_filter_explanations > > > > There will be a quiz: What is the difference between a circular > explanation and a recursive one. What is the key dimension that determines > whether an explanation is viciously circular? Is the virtuus dormitiva > viciously circular? Why? Why not? > > It would help if you would distill your argument, here, rather than > muddying it up with the natural selection, adaptation example. Would you > mind doing that? > > -- > ☣ glen > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Nice, Eric, right on. Why does Trump display Narcissistic Disorder Symptoms. Because he has Narcissistic Disorder That’s viciously circular. But, Why does trump behave like a narcissist? Because he has Narcissistic Disorder is not so viciously circular because one has added the idea of “disorder”. I will leave to others to say what “disorder” implies, except to say that it seems to have a strong normative component. Something is “wrong” with the guy. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Eric Charles Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 11:45 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders Glen, I'm not sure if Nick can do that. However, he is very good at clarifying issues by telling me how I am wrong. With that in mind, I'll attempt a summary, of which I am fairly confident: Circular explanations occur when a description of the phenomenon in question is offered as an explanation of said phenomenon. For example, when asked "why are there only small peanuts in this jar?" it would be circular to answer "because there are small peanuts in the jar." Note that "because there are small peanuts in the jar" could be a valuable explanation for many other questions, but not for that question, because in that context it is simply restating the thing-to-be-explained. There is a class of explanations - recursive explanations - that often get mistaken for circular explanations. Such explanations use the description offered in the original question as part of an explanation, but add additional information that moves the path of inquiry forward. A filter explanation is an example of a recursive explanation. For example, when asked "why are there only small peanuts in this jar?" it would not be circular to answer "because there jar was filled using small-peanut-filter, which only allows small peanuts to fall through." (And it is in exactly this way that, the Theory of Evolution by Means of Natural Selection is not circular, as it is commonly accused of being, when it is understood properly... which it frequently isn't, even by its prominent proponents.) Now, the shaky part, where I wonder why Nick thought it was relevant to this conversation: "Why does Trump appear to have Narcissistic Personality Disorder?" Circular - "Because he has the symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder" (This takes us no where beyond that he has the symptoms, because the thing-to-be-explained was the appearing-to-have-NPD.) Not-circular - "Because he has a thing that causes those symptoms." (This doesn't add much, but it does add something. It eliminates possibilities such as his acting that way as a joke, or due to drugs, or that if we viewed him in a larger light we wouldn't see the symptoms at all, etc.) --- Eric P. Charles, Ph.D. Supervisory Survey Statistician U.S. Marine Corps On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:17 PM, glen ☣ mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> > wrote: On 01/18/2017 07:38 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Here is your assignment for tomorrow. I am a (proud) C student. So, of course, I will never meet your deadlines. 8^) > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281410347_Comparative_psychology_and_the_recursive_structure_of_filter_explanations > > There will be a quiz: What is the difference between a circular explanation > and a recursive one. What is the key dimension that determines whether an > explanation is viciously circular? Is the virtuus dormitiva viciously > circular? Why? Why not? It would help if you would distill your argument, here, rather than muddying it up with the natural selection, adaptation example. Would you mind doing that? -- ☣ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
MUDDYING UP!??? Glen, you're talking about my LIFE'S WORK You did mean to say, "Adding purified essence of wisdom," right? (};-)] Thank god for Eric's distillation. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 11:17 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders On 01/18/2017 07:38 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Here is your assignment for tomorrow. I am a (proud) C student. So, of course, I will never meet your deadlines. 8^) > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281410347_Comparative_psychol > ogy_and_the_recursive_structure_of_filter_explanations > > There will be a quiz: What is the difference between a circular explanation > and a recursive one. What is the key dimension that determines whether an > explanation is viciously circular? Is the virtuus dormitiva viciously > circular? Why? Why not? It would help if you would distill your argument, here, rather than muddying it up with the natural selection, adaptation example. Would you mind doing that? -- ☣ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Why does Trump display Narcissistic [Personality] Disorder Symptoms? Because he feels unrelenting emptiness and low self esteem which causes him great pain when anyone criticizes him or suggests that someone else is superior to him. This unbearable pain causes him to counterattack forcefully when he feels attacked regardless of whether an attack is actually intended by the other person. Is that less circular, Nick? Of course we will now have to deal with your claim that he is aware of his pain because he infers it from his behavior, to wit exhibiting the symptoms of NPD. Frank Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 20, 2017 1:58 PM, "Nick Thompson" wrote: Nice, Eric, right on. Why does Trump display Narcissistic Disorder Symptoms. Because he has Narcissistic Disorder That’s viciously circular. But, Why does trump behave like a narcissist? Because he has Narcissistic Disorder is not so viciously circular because one has added the idea of “disorder”. I will leave to others to say what “disorder” implies, except to say that it seems to have a strong normative component. Something is “wrong” with the guy. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Eric Charles *Sent:* Friday, January 20, 2017 11:45 AM *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders Glen, I'm not sure if Nick can do that. However, he is very good at clarifying issues by telling me how I am wrong. With that in mind, I'll attempt a summary, of which I am fairly confident: Circular explanations occur when a description of the phenomenon in question is offered as an explanation of said phenomenon. For example, when asked "why are there only small peanuts in this jar?" it would be circular to answer "because there are small peanuts in the jar." Note that "because there are small peanuts in the jar" could be a valuable explanation for many other questions, but not for that question, because in that context it is simply restating the thing-to-be-explained. There is a class of explanations - recursive explanations - that often get mistaken for circular explanations. Such explanations use the description offered in the original question as part of an explanation, but add additional information that moves the path of inquiry forward. A filter explanation is an example of a recursive explanation. For example, when asked "why are there only small peanuts in this jar?" it would *not* be circular to answer "because there jar was filled using small-peanut-filter, which only allows small peanuts to fall through." (And it is in exactly this way that, the Theory of Evolution by Means of Natural Selection is *not* circular, as it is commonly accused of being, when it is understood properly... which it frequently isn't, even by its prominent proponents.) Now, the shaky part, where I wonder why Nick thought it was relevant to this conversation: "Why does Trump appear to have Narcissistic Personality Disorder?" Circular - "Because he has the symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder" (This takes us no where beyond that he has the symptoms, because the thing-to-be-explained was the appearing-to-have-NPD.) Not-circular - "Because he has a thing that causes those symptoms." (This doesn't add much, but it does add something. It eliminates possibilities such as his acting that way as a joke, or due to drugs, or that if we viewed him in a larger light we wouldn't see the symptoms at all, etc.) --- Eric P. Charles, Ph.D. Supervisory Survey Statistician U.S. Marine Corps On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:17 PM, glen ☣ wrote: On 01/18/2017 07:38 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Here is your assignment for tomorrow. I am a (proud) C student. So, of course, I will never meet your deadlines. 8^) > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281410347_ Comparative_psychology_and_the_recursive_structure_of_filter_explanations > > There will be a quiz: What is the difference between a circular explanation and a recursive one. What is the key dimension that determines whether an explanation is viciously circular? Is the virtuus dormitiva viciously circular? Why? Why not? It would help if you would distill your argument, here, rather than muddying it up with the natural selection, adaptation example. Would you mind doing that? -- ☣ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove =
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Excellent! Thanks, Eric (and everyone -- I'm enjoying this). So, here's my, in class, answer to Nick's quiz: nick> What is the difference between a circular explanation and a recursive one. What is the key dimension that determines whether an explanation is viciously circular? Is the virtuus dormitiva viciously circular? Why? Why not? Recursive explanations contain layers of reasoning (e.g. mechanism vs phenomenon) whereas circular ones are flat. Vicious circularity simply means "has only 1 layer". (I disagree with this idea.[*]) The virtus dormitiva has multiple (abstraction of language) layers and, by the single-layer defn of "vicious" is not vicious. Now, on to NPD, I think we have 2 types of recursion: 1) communicative, as Frank (probably) tried to point out to me before, and 2) phenomenological. When we land in an attractor like "something is wrong with Trump", we're still within a single layer of reasoning (intuition, emotion, systemic gestalt, whatever). If we have a tacit feeling for NPD, we can stay within that single layer and simply assign a token to it: NPD. But if we're at all reductionist, we'll look for ways to break that layer into parts. Parts don't necessarily imply crossing layers. E.g. a meaningful picture can be cut into curvy pieces without claiming the images on the pieces also have meaning. So 1) we can simply name various (same layer) phenomena that hook together like jigsaw pieces to comprise NPD. Or 2) we can assert that personality traits are layered so that the lower/inner turtles _construct_ the higher/outer turtles. What Frank says below is of type (1). What Jochen (and others) have talked about before (childhood experiences, etc.) is more like type (2). The question arises of whether the layering of symbolic compression (renaming sets of same-layer attributes) is merely type (1) or does it become type (2). To me, mere _renaming_ doesn't cut it. There must be a somewhat objectively defined difference, a name-independent difference. So, if we changed all the words we use (don't use "narcissism", "personality", "disorder", "emptiness", etc. ... use booga1, booga2, booga3, etc.), would we _still_ see a cross-trophic effect? Note that mathematics has elicited lots of such demonstrations of irreducible layering ... e.g. various no-go theorems. But those are syntactic _demonstrations_ ... without the vagaries introduced by natural language and scientific grounding. To assert that problems like natural selection vs. adaptation or the diagnosis of NPD also demonstrate such cross-trophic properties would _require_ complete formalization into math. Wolpert did this (I think) to some extent. But I doubt it's been done in evolutionary theory and I'm fairly confident it hasn't been done in psychiatry. (I admit my ignorance, of course... doubt is a good mistress but a bad master.) More importantly, though, I personally don't believe a recursive cycle is _any_ different from a flat cycle. Who was it that said all deductive inference is tautology? I have it in a book somewhere, cited by John Woods. Unless there is some significantly different chunk of reasoning somewhere in one of the layers, all the layers perfectly _reduce_ to a single layer. Hence, my answer to Nick's quiz (at the pub after class) is that _all_ cycles are "vicious" (if vicious means single layer), but if we take my concept of "vicious", then only those cycles that _hide_ behind (false) layers are vicious. [*] I think a cycle is vicious iff it causes problems. Tautologies don't cause problems. They don't solve them. But they don't cause them either. So a vicious cycle must have more than 1 layer. On 01/20/2017 01:18 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Why does Trump display Narcissistic [Personality] Disorder Symptoms? Because > he feels unrelenting emptiness and low self esteem which causes him great > pain when anyone criticizes him or suggests that someone else is superior to > him. This unbearable pain causes him to counterattack forcefully when he > feels attacked regardless of whether an attack is actually intended by the > other person. > > Is that less circular, Nick? Of course we will now have to deal with your > claim that he is aware of his pain because he infers it from his behavior, to > wit exhibiting the symptoms of NPD. -- ☣ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Ha! Right. Sorry. I didn't mean to offend. But some people really do think you can't get anything done with getting your hands ... muddy. And in their defense, that "pure mud" they use at, say, beauty salons is kinda gross to me. If I get muddy, I much prefer, chunky, heterogeneous mud. Your mud is plenty chunky. So, it's not so bad. On 01/20/2017 01:01 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > MUDDYING UP!??? Glen, you're talking about my LIFE'S WORK > > You did mean to say, "Adding purified essence of wisdom," right? (};-)] > > Thank god for Eric's distillation. -- ☣ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
"What Frank says below is of type (1). What Jochen (and others) have talked about before (childhood experiences, etc.) is more like type (2)." Type 2? The authentic selfhood of the child is not authenticated by the parent(s). According to psycoanalyst Otto Kernberg: "Presenting excessive self-absorption usually coinciding with a superficially smooth and effective social adaptation, by with serious distortions in their internal relationships with other people. They present various combinations of intense ambitiousness, grandiose fantasies, feelings of inferiority, overdepedence on external admiration and acclaim. Along with feelings of boredom and emptiness, and continuous search for gratification of strivings for brilliance, wealth, power and beauty, there are serious deficiencies in their capacity to love and to be concerned about others. This lack of capacity for empathic understanding of others often comes as a surprise considering their superficially appropriate social adjustment." As for a detailed elucidation of causes, you have to read a highly technical book such as Kohut. Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-991 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Well, that confirms that it is more like a layered system, even if it's simply self-reported or all in the diagnoser's head. The last 2 sentences of Kernberg's description directly imply constructive causation. But regardless of any competence with or understanding of this particular domain, when we're talking about whether Trump already had the traits at age so-and-so before being sent to military school, and whether his subsequent experiences exacerbated the problem ... and (like the skeptical blog entry I posted) whether the traits are more heavily context-depenent, we're fundamentally considering multi-layered explanations. On 01/20/2017 04:31 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > "What Frank says below is of type (1). What Jochen (and others) have talked > about before (childhood experiences, etc.) is more like type (2)." > > Type 2? The authentic selfhood of the child is not authenticated by the > parent(s). According to psycoanalyst Otto Kernberg: > > "Presenting excessive self-absorption usually coinciding with a superficially > smooth and effective social adaptation, by with serious distortions in their > internal relationships with other people. They present various combinations > of intense ambitiousness, grandiose fantasies, feelings of inferiority, > overdepedence on external admiration and acclaim. Along with feelings of > boredom and emptiness, and continuous search for gratification of strivings > for brilliance, wealth, power and beauty, there are serious deficiencies in > their capacity to love and to be concerned about others. This lack of > capacity for empathic understanding of others often comes as a surprise > considering their superficially appropriate social adjustment." > > As for a detailed elucidation of causes, you have to read a highly technical > book such as Kohut. -- ☣ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
F. Nice! Hoist by my own petard. N Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Frank Wimberly Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 2:19 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders Why does Trump display Narcissistic [Personality] Disorder Symptoms? Because he feels unrelenting emptiness and low self esteem which causes him great pain when anyone criticizes him or suggests that someone else is superior to him. This unbearable pain causes him to counterattack forcefully when he feels attacked regardless of whether an attack is actually intended by the other person. Is that less circular, Nick? Of course we will now have to deal with your claim that he is aware of his pain because he infers it from his behavior, to wit exhibiting the symptoms of NPD. Frank Frank Wimberly Phone (505) 670-9918 On Jan 20, 2017 1:58 PM, "Nick Thompson" mailto:nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > wrote: Nice, Eric, right on. Why does Trump display Narcissistic Disorder Symptoms. Because he has Narcissistic Disorder That’s viciously circular. But, Why does trump behave like a narcissist? Because he has Narcissistic Disorder is not so viciously circular because one has added the idea of “disorder”. I will leave to others to say what “disorder” implies, except to say that it seems to have a strong normative component. Something is “wrong” with the guy. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University <http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com <mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com> ] On Behalf Of Eric Charles Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 11:45 AM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group mailto:friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders Glen, I'm not sure if Nick can do that. However, he is very good at clarifying issues by telling me how I am wrong. With that in mind, I'll attempt a summary, of which I am fairly confident: Circular explanations occur when a description of the phenomenon in question is offered as an explanation of said phenomenon. For example, when asked "why are there only small peanuts in this jar?" it would be circular to answer "because there are small peanuts in the jar." Note that "because there are small peanuts in the jar" could be a valuable explanation for many other questions, but not for that question, because in that context it is simply restating the thing-to-be-explained. There is a class of explanations - recursive explanations - that often get mistaken for circular explanations. Such explanations use the description offered in the original question as part of an explanation, but add additional information that moves the path of inquiry forward. A filter explanation is an example of a recursive explanation. For example, when asked "why are there only small peanuts in this jar?" it would not be circular to answer "because there jar was filled using small-peanut-filter, which only allows small peanuts to fall through." (And it is in exactly this way that, the Theory of Evolution by Means of Natural Selection is not circular, as it is commonly accused of being, when it is understood properly... which it frequently isn't, even by its prominent proponents.) Now, the shaky part, where I wonder why Nick thought it was relevant to this conversation: "Why does Trump appear to have Narcissistic Personality Disorder?" Circular - "Because he has the symptoms of Narcissistic Personality Disorder" (This takes us no where beyond that he has the symptoms, because the thing-to-be-explained was the appearing-to-have-NPD.) Not-circular - "Because he has a thing that causes those symptoms." (This doesn't add much, but it does add something. It eliminates possibilities such as his acting that way as a joke, or due to drugs, or that if we viewed him in a larger light we wouldn't see the symptoms at all, etc.) --- Eric P. Charles, Ph.D. Supervisory Survey Statistician U.S. Marine Corps On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:17 PM, glen ☣ mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> > wrote: On 01/18/2017 07:38 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > Here is your assignment for tomorrow. I am a (proud) C student. So, of course, I will never meet your deadlines. 8^) > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281410347_Comparative_psychology_and_the_recursive_structu
Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders
Hi, Glen, " Your mud is plenty chunky. " I think that's the nicest thing anybody has ever said to me. [sniff] Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: Friday, January 20, 2017 4:48 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The root of personality disorders Ha! Right. Sorry. I didn't mean to offend. But some people really do think you can't get anything done with getting your hands ... muddy. And in their defense, that "pure mud" they use at, say, beauty salons is kinda gross to me. If I get muddy, I much prefer, chunky, heterogeneous mud. Your mud is plenty chunky. So, it's not so bad. On 01/20/2017 01:01 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > MUDDYING UP!??? Glen, you're talking about my LIFE'S WORK > > You did mean to say, "Adding purified essence of wisdom," right? > (};-)] > > Thank god for Eric's distillation. -- ☣ glen FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
