Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
Agreed here. Money, Money, Money... stick to your big usage/development/infrastructure pool. If there is no "going to bankruptcy in 2 yrs because of that feature missing" then do not change what is in place. Now if this is a new project. Please switch to ZF :-) start gathering your usage/development/infrastructure pool, at some point that would be the base line, and at some point you can start migrating legacy/old apps to ZF. Being a strong UNIX/PHP admin/developer for years I'll never recommend .NET for new projects. Why? As one of the most important reasons, I believe in the OpSrc Community, which their help is greatly appreciated. Regards, Roberto. Bill Karwin wrote: I agree with Rob. If your team and project have a significant investment in .NET, then use .NET. If you're in the minority, and the rest of the team are .NET advocates, then suck it up and learn .NET. The cost of re-tooling, re-training, and adjusting your team's culture to the new language and framework is so expensive that it'll probably cancel out any productivity advantage the other technology may have. An organization should switch technologies only if there is some compelling benefit, such as a required capability that the new language can do easily, but which is grievous or simply impossible in the old language. One can make arguments about minor technical advantages PHP & ZF may have over .NET. But I don't think there is any such point that could be called "compelling" (except with respect to specific project goals). So the non-technical arguments should be the deciding factors, such as those regarding licences, cost, and team culture. Regards, Bill Karwin -Original Message- From: Rob Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 2:20 AM To: fw-general@lists.zend.com Subject: Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework? rogeson wrote: This is of course a no-brainer to me, but my current task is to convince the company I work for to build our next product using the Zend Framework instead of .Net, and there are a lot of .Net enthusiasts here. Does anybody have any good arguments as to how and why using PHP and the Zend Framework is a superior choice to .Net? Has anybody had convince their organization of the same sort of thing? For me, it would depend on the team. You can build great web projects in .NET, Java, PHP, Python, Perl, Lisp and even Ruby. If my team knew .NET inside out, then I'd build the product using .NET and vice-versa for PHP. It's expensive to throw away all your code, experience and knowledge of one language for the promise of greener grass. A more complicated question is should a PHP shop which has it's own set of libraries & glue framework move to the Zend Framework? This is much harder to answer due to having to weigh the cost of losing the investment in your current solution against the possible benefits of more productivity and less bugs due proper separation of concerns. Regards, Rob...
Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
Ok. Sorry, guys. Usually I'm trying to avoid "one vs. another" discussions. I prefer to stop on "project requirements" point, which Bill highlighted below. I always glad to see you visiting my site and sending me emails. Sincerely, Alex On 10/8/07, Bill Karwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I agree with Rob. If your team and project have a significant > investment in .NET, then use .NET. If you're in the minority, and the > rest of the team are .NET advocates, then suck it up and learn .NET. > > The cost of re-tooling, re-training, and adjusting your team's culture > to the new language and framework is so expensive that it'll probably > cancel out any productivity advantage the other technology may have. An > organization should switch technologies only if there is some compelling > benefit, such as a required capability that the new language can do > easily, but which is grievous or simply impossible in the old language. > > One can make arguments about minor technical advantages PHP & ZF may > have over .NET. But I don't think there is any such point that could be > called "compelling" (except with respect to specific project goals). So > the non-technical arguments should be the deciding factors, such as > those regarding licences, cost, and team culture. > > Regards, > Bill Karwin > > > -Original Message- > > From: Rob Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 2:20 AM > > To: fw-general@lists.zend.com > > Subject: Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework? > > > > rogeson wrote: > > > This is of course a no-brainer to me, but my current task is to > > > convince the company I work for to build our next product using the > > > Zend Framework instead of .Net, and there are a lot of .Net > > enthusiasts here. > > > > > > Does anybody have any good arguments as to how and why > > using PHP and > > > the Zend Framework is a superior choice to .Net? Has anybody had > > > convince their organization of the same sort of thing? > > > > > > > > For me, it would depend on the team. You can build great web > > projects in .NET, Java, PHP, Python, Perl, Lisp and even Ruby. > > > > If my team knew .NET inside out, then I'd build the product > > using .NET and vice-versa for PHP. It's expensive to throw > > away all your code, experience and knowledge of one language > > for the promise of greener grass. > > > > > > A more complicated question is should a PHP shop which has > > it's own set of libraries & glue framework move to the Zend > > Framework? This is much harder to answer due to having to > > weigh the cost of losing the investment in your current > > solution against the possible benefits of more productivity > > and less bugs due proper separation of concerns. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Rob... > > > -- http://www.alexatnet.com/ - consulting, blog, articles and support for PHP, ZF, JavaScript and web development.
RE: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
I agree with Rob. If your team and project have a significant investment in .NET, then use .NET. If you're in the minority, and the rest of the team are .NET advocates, then suck it up and learn .NET. The cost of re-tooling, re-training, and adjusting your team's culture to the new language and framework is so expensive that it'll probably cancel out any productivity advantage the other technology may have. An organization should switch technologies only if there is some compelling benefit, such as a required capability that the new language can do easily, but which is grievous or simply impossible in the old language. One can make arguments about minor technical advantages PHP & ZF may have over .NET. But I don't think there is any such point that could be called "compelling" (except with respect to specific project goals). So the non-technical arguments should be the deciding factors, such as those regarding licences, cost, and team culture. Regards, Bill Karwin > -Original Message- > From: Rob Allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 2:20 AM > To: fw-general@lists.zend.com > Subject: Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework? > > rogeson wrote: > > This is of course a no-brainer to me, but my current task is to > > convince the company I work for to build our next product using the > > Zend Framework instead of .Net, and there are a lot of .Net > enthusiasts here. > > > > Does anybody have any good arguments as to how and why > using PHP and > > the Zend Framework is a superior choice to .Net? Has anybody had > > convince their organization of the same sort of thing? > > > > For me, it would depend on the team. You can build great web > projects in .NET, Java, PHP, Python, Perl, Lisp and even Ruby. > > If my team knew .NET inside out, then I'd build the product > using .NET and vice-versa for PHP. It's expensive to throw > away all your code, experience and knowledge of one language > for the promise of greener grass. > > > A more complicated question is should a PHP shop which has > it's own set of libraries & glue framework move to the Zend > Framework? This is much harder to answer due to having to > weigh the cost of losing the investment in your current > solution against the possible benefits of more productivity > and less bugs due proper separation of concerns. > > > Regards, > > Rob... >
Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
Hy Alex, Alex Netkachov wrote: Following on from that, why do you think that PHP isn't suitable for such "complex long-term projects"? 1. I consider compilation and strong typization are very important in development because they help to avoid some basic typo-mistakes. Having typo mistakes is no point of strong typization. It gives just a feeling of security where it's not secure. 2. .NET provides a lot of functionality still not implemented in PHP. I especially interested in i18n and l10n of the applications. Formatting, encodings, locales, etc. ZF has all these now, but not in .NET contains such functionality just from the beginning. Definetly NO. ZF has this things. What does the NET Framework additionaly have in I18N what you need and is not implemented in ZF... I dont know any "no-go" and I am also developing a "long-term" project with ZF. And sorry, but the ZF had I18N from the beginning on. And why do you compare the NET Framework with PHP ??? The question was NET Framework or Zend Framework... and not NET or PHP. 3. One standard IDE for all developers. Poor developers... all has to use the same problematic tool. But this is not right... even for NET there are other IDEs which can be used. 4. More tools for code analyzing because of strong typization. Also for PHP / ZF there are analysing and other tools. But tools do not exist because a language has strong typisation. This is absolutely wrong. Greetings Thomas I18N Team Leader
Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
Hi there, sorry, can't resist commenting on this one (having worked with .NET in the past)... I promise this will be my only post regarding this topic though :-) Alex Netkachov schrieb: 1. I consider compilation and strong typization are very important in development because they help to avoid some basic typo-mistakes. I've always found strongly-typed languages to suffer from two basic problems: A false sense of security (my app works because it compiles without error), and a loss in productivity (I have to type more, typecast everything, pre-plan everything, compile, test, change, compile, test, change (rinse, repeat until compiler throws no more errors) and then still have to hunt for bugs when feeding the app with real data). There's a much better way to ensure your application runs without error than having it checked by a compiler: Write tests that use real-world data. When I was developing .NET applications, the real errors where always happening at runtime, not at compile-time. And debugging is a nuisance because you always have to recompile your application, restart it, and restart your debugging efforts from scratch, constantly repeating each task you needed to perform to get to the point where the bug occurs. That is neither fun nor productive. 2. .NET provides a lot of functionality still not implemented in PHP. I especially interested in i18n and l10n of the applications. Formatting, encodings, locales, etc. ZF has all these now, but not in .NET contains such functionality just from the beginning. That is a fundamentally bogus assessment. What you're saying is: PHP (the language) does not have i18n built-in, while .NET (the framework, because that's what it is), has. That's like saying: The Zend Framework has i18n built-in, while C# (the language) hasn't. 3. One standard IDE for all developers. ...which means: All developers have to think completely alike and follow the same processes. If you were used to a different workstyle before - well, that's all nice and good but please unlearn everything you thought you knew before and adhere to the one true Visual Studio way. Unity in conformity! Bleh. With PHP, it's possible for every developer on a team to work with the environment he knows best, and keep the workstyle he's most productive in. This way, everyone in the team can work at his personal peak of productivity and at the same time maintain a sense of individuality and freedom that he wouldn't have otherwise, increasing motivation. And no, this does not lead to chaos. Using different development environments does not mean you don't adhere to coding standards, a unified project layout and a central source control. It only means that to write new code (while keeping to the agreed standards) everyone can use the tools he knows best. 4. More tools for code analyzing because of strong typization. What would you like to analyze that you can't analyze when using PHP, exactly? PHP has debuggers, profilers, source analyzers, code coverage analysis for unit tests and more. And did you notice the plural form on all of these things? That was intentional :-) Ok, enough waste of bandwith from me... CU Markus
Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
On 10/7/07, Rob Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Alex Netkachov wrote: > > I prefer to use .NET for complex long-term project when development is > > similar to RUP and PHP for "always-prototype" startups. > > > > Out of interest, what is a "complex long-term project"? I consider project is complex when it has many layers, have special performance requirements, contains hundreds of components, have a lot people involved in it. > Following on from that, why do you think that PHP isn't suitable for > such "complex long-term projects"? 1. I consider compilation and strong typization are very important in development because they help to avoid some basic typo-mistakes. 2. .NET provides a lot of functionality still not implemented in PHP. I especially interested in i18n and l10n of the applications. Formatting, encodings, locales, etc. ZF has all these now, but not in .NET contains such functionality just from the beginning. 3. One standard IDE for all developers. 4. More tools for code analyzing because of strong typization. Sincerely, Alex -- http://www.alexatnet.com/ - consulting, blog, articles and support for PHP, ZF, JavaScript and web development.
Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
Alex Netkachov wrote: > I prefer to use .NET for complex long-term project when development is > similar to RUP and PHP for "always-prototype" startups. > Out of interest, what is a "complex long-term project"? Following on from that, why do you think that PHP isn't suitable for such "complex long-term projects"? Regards, Rob...
Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
rogeson wrote: > This is of course a no-brainer to me, but my current task is to convince the > company I work for to build our next product using the Zend Framework > instead of .Net, and there are a lot of .Net enthusiasts here. > > Does anybody have any good arguments as to how and why using PHP and the > Zend Framework is a superior choice to .Net? Has anybody had convince their > organization of the same sort of thing? For me, it would depend on the team. You can build great web projects in .NET, Java, PHP, Python, Perl, Lisp and even Ruby. If my team knew .NET inside out, then I'd build the product using .NET and vice-versa for PHP. It's expensive to throw away all your code, experience and knowledge of one language for the promise of greener grass. A more complicated question is should a PHP shop which has it's own set of libraries & glue framework move to the Zend Framework? This is much harder to answer due to having to weigh the cost of losing the investment in your current solution against the possible benefits of more productivity and less bugs due proper separation of concerns. Regards, Rob...
答复: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
Personally I really don't like this kind comparison. It's really based on your context and requirements. Even if using .Net, there are lots of ways to use it. The best thing I like PHP is PHP doesn't need to be complied. It's dynamic language, and doesn't have many restrictions, and I've used php for long time. Actually software is based on the structure rather than the concrete tools and languages. Within different languages, tools and platforms, you always can find out the same or similar way to implement your requirements. Thanks, Bz -邮件原件- 发件人: rogeson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 发送时间: 2007年10月7日 3:39 收件人: fw-general@lists.zend.com 主题: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework? This is of course a no-brainer to me, but my current task is to convince the company I work for to build our next product using the Zend Framework instead of .Net, and there are a lot of .Net enthusiasts here. Does anybody have any good arguments as to how and why using PHP and the Zend Framework is a superior choice to .Net? Has anybody had convince their organization of the same sort of thing? Thanks! Roger -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/.Net-or-Zend-Framework--tf4580976s16154.html#a13076861 Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
.NET means many things. I guess that you want to make a choice between ASP.NET and Zend Framework. It depends on what operating system you are planning to deploy applications on. You should stick with ASP.NET if you use Windows extensively. For me, LAMP is a better, more powerful alternative to Windows/MSSQL/ASP.NET: + Choice: more choices + Price: your development cost and your customer's cost when they buy and deploy your products + Community: PHP communities is more friendly and helpful + Lot of open source applications that you can try and get rid of if it they do not fit your need. + Linux is more powerful, scriptable, flexible and reliable than the counterpart. + PHP is a more compact and web friendly language. VB.NET and C# are system programming language and they are much more verbal. One PHP line of code can be rewritten in tens of VB.NET or C# lines of code. + No lock in one IDE, one OS and/or database server + If you care about web standards, go PHP. ASP.NET tag soups is substandard-oriented + ASP.NET is not flexible and non MVC. Smarty/PHPSavant + PHP classes at PHPClasses.org == ASP.NET way of thinking. I don't like component-based frameworks like ASP.NET because it always tries to be desktop-alike environment. It comes with no surprise because MS is a desktop shop. I hate to see some javascript generated automatically by IDE to make webpages work with single form architecture. I hate to see evil ViewState and substandard WebForms + Mono is a toy project. ASP.NET has several advantages + Optimized for Windows + Better tooling support + Desktop application developer friendly + State-of-art integration with MS products + You don't need to care about web standards Just my 2 cents On 10/7/07, rogeson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > This is of course a no-brainer to me, but my current task is to convince > the > company I work for to build our next product using the Zend Framework > instead of .Net, and there are a lot of .Net enthusiasts here. > > Does anybody have any good arguments as to how and why using PHP and the > Zend Framework is a superior choice to .Net? Has anybody had convince > their > organization of the same sort of thing? > > Thanks! > > Roger > -- > View this message in context: > http://www.nabble.com/.Net-or-Zend-Framework--tf4580976s16154.html#a13076861 > Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > -- -- http://groups.google.com/group/phpvietnam
Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
Here at work we have a tech that writes the apps for Human Resources with .NET; but we, the web developers, are all on LAMP... So, they can coexist, but for web-development it is kind of a no brainer; PHP is free, easy to install, comprehensive, and has a truly massive audience. Other alternatives would be Python + Django/(insert hundreds of other frameworks here). I personally like Python + Django the most out of all the language/framework combos; but, the other developers in my work are not familiar with anything Python, so I use PHP + ZF, which I like quite alot anyways. I think you have some pretty good arguments at this point.
Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
Dan, That sounds very reasonable. With PHP you get freedom and flexibility. In my experience few people take .NET seriously in web development. I bet it's a great platform and a good choice if you're a large enterprise already using this technology and only looking to add web interface to the existing system. But it seems the web is moving too fast for Microsoft to react and web community is very sensitive to open software and standards. It should also easier for you to recruit more talented and passionate developers if you move to the light side :) Cheers Karol rogeson wrote: > > Hi Karol, > > Yes, you are very right about that. Part of what I see as a problem with > the .Net apps we've been building is that we have to then move our > customers over to Microsoft servers, or run apps on multiple servers if > they're already on *nix. > > I also think that .Net is quite a good framework, and capable of wonderful > things. The problem that I see is the culture that surrounds it. There is > very little community, and people seem to be protective of their knowledge > instead of open with it. > > Thanks Karol! > Dan > > > Karol Grecki wrote: >> >> Roger, >> >> You didn't say what you're building. You should always use the best tool >> for the job. >> You also need to take other people skills into consideration. Don't push >> PHP if all your developers are proficient in .NET and don't know or like >> PHP. >> >> The answer to you question will greatly depend who you ask, so I >> recommend using google and do some research on your own. You should >> easily find enough proof for PHP superiority ;) >> >> Cheers >> Karol Grecki >> >> >> >> rogeson wrote: >>> >>> This is of course a no-brainer to me, but my current task is to convince >>> the company I work for to build our next product using the Zend >>> Framework instead of .Net, and there are a lot of .Net enthusiasts here. >>> >>> Does anybody have any good arguments as to how and why using PHP and the >>> Zend Framework is a superior choice to .Net? Has anybody had convince >>> their organization of the same sort of thing? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Roger >>> >> >> > > -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/.Net-or-Zend-Framework--tf4580976s16154.html#a13077629 Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
Hi Karol, Yes, you are very right about that. Part of what I see as a problem with the .Net apps we've been building is that we have to then move our customers over to Microsoft servers, or run apps on multiple servers if they're already on *nix. I also think that .Net is quite a good framework, and capable of wonderful things. The problem that I see is the culture that surrounds it. There is very little community, and people seem to be protective of their knowledge instead of open with it. Thanks Karol! Dan Karol Grecki wrote: > > Roger, > > You didn't say what you're building. You should always use the best tool > for the job. > You also need to take other people skills into consideration. Don't push > PHP if all your developers are proficient in .NET and don't know or like > PHP. > > The answer to you question will greatly depend who you ask, so I recommend > using google and do some research on your own. You should easily find > enough proof for PHP superiority ;) > > Cheers > Karol Grecki > > > > rogeson wrote: >> >> This is of course a no-brainer to me, but my current task is to convince >> the company I work for to build our next product using the Zend Framework >> instead of .Net, and there are a lot of .Net enthusiasts here. >> >> Does anybody have any good arguments as to how and why using PHP and the >> Zend Framework is a superior choice to .Net? Has anybody had convince >> their organization of the same sort of thing? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Roger >> > > -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/.Net-or-Zend-Framework--tf4580976s16154.html#a13077480 Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
Roger, You didn't say what you're building. You should always use the best tool for the job. You also need to take other people skills into consideration. Don't push PHP if all your developers are proficient in .NET and don't know or like PHP. The answer to you question will greatly depend who you ask, so I recommend using google and do some research on your own. You should easily find enough proof for PHP superiority ;) Cheers Karol Grecki rogeson wrote: > > This is of course a no-brainer to me, but my current task is to convince > the company I work for to build our next product using the Zend Framework > instead of .Net, and there are a lot of .Net enthusiasts here. > > Does anybody have any good arguments as to how and why using PHP and the > Zend Framework is a superior choice to .Net? Has anybody had convince > their organization of the same sort of thing? > > Thanks! > > Roger > -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/.Net-or-Zend-Framework--tf4580976s16154.html#a13077425 Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Re: [fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
Hello, I prefer to use .NET for complex long-term project when development is similar to RUP and PHP for "always-prototype" startups. Sincerely, Alex On 10/6/07, rogeson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > This is of course a no-brainer to me, but my current task is to convince the > company I work for to build our next product using the Zend Framework > instead of .Net, and there are a lot of .Net enthusiasts here. > > Does anybody have any good arguments as to how and why using PHP and the > Zend Framework is a superior choice to .Net? Has anybody had convince their > organization of the same sort of thing? > > Thanks! > > Roger > -- > View this message in context: > http://www.nabble.com/.Net-or-Zend-Framework--tf4580976s16154.html#a13076861 > Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > -- http://www.alexatnet.com/ - consulting, blog, articles and support for PHP, ZF, JavaScript and web development.
[fw-general] .Net or Zend Framework?
This is of course a no-brainer to me, but my current task is to convince the company I work for to build our next product using the Zend Framework instead of .Net, and there are a lot of .Net enthusiasts here. Does anybody have any good arguments as to how and why using PHP and the Zend Framework is a superior choice to .Net? Has anybody had convince their organization of the same sort of thing? Thanks! Roger -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/.Net-or-Zend-Framework--tf4580976s16154.html#a13076861 Sent from the Zend Framework mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
