Speaking Up (was Re: 12" Speed)

2003-06-07 Thread Dan Knight 
On 6/6/03 12:50 PM, Scott Howe posted:

>Ill tell you why I have a right to complain. Because I
>bought one of Apples products and as a consumer of "a
>huge, profitable, powerful CAPITALIST corporation"'s
>(in your own words) product, consumers like me call
>the shots, not the corporations themselves. A products
>quality makes or breaks a company, not the companies
>rules and regulations concerning the ability to
>discuss it or not.

Scott, you miss the point.

Yes, you have a right to complain to Apple. Yes, you have a free speech 
right to complain in public. What you do *not* have is the right to post 
anything you want to Apple's boards.

Different venues have different rules. Our email lists are not moderated, 
nor do we remove messages from the archives (truth be told, we couldn't 
if we wanted to). However, we do restrict posting to members of the list, 
and we sometimes have to ban people for breaking the rules.

If you want to complain about your 12" 'Book here or on your own space, 
there's not a thing Apple can do to stop it. But if you violate their 
terms of service on their boards, expect them to pull your comments and 
threaten to block you.

If you want to get Apple to act, follow their rules in their forums, make 
your case clearly (that includes checking spelling, grammar, and 
punctuation -- do you have a thing against apostrophes?), and give them a 
chance to respond reasonably.

Flaming, trolling, attacking the company -- these will get you nowhere. 
Instead, position yourself as working in Apple's best interest by pushing 
them to resolve an issue that has given them a black eye.

You attract more flies with honey than with vinegar.

And the same definitely applies here. People who go off the deep end when 
the list mom or one of the nannies issues a warning are for more likely 
to be banned than anyone else.


-- 
Dan Knight, president, Cobweb Publishing, Inc.
  
  
   

I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by 
reorganizing, and what a wonderful method it can be  for creating the 
illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and 
demoralization. -- Petronius


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Re: 12" Speed

2003-06-06 Thread Phil Burk 
My apologies.  Premature send.

On Friday, June 6, 2003, at 12:07  PM, Laurent Daudelin wrote:

As one of the list nanny on this specific mailing list, I would ask
everybody to leave this thread and move on. There isn't anything
specifically helpful for G3-G4 based PowerBooks in this thread, so 
let's go
back to helpful topics.

Thank you.

-Laurent.
Phil Burk
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Wiley Publishing, Inc.
Indianapolis, IN
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Re: 12" Speed and Stalinist tendencies (OT)

2003-06-06 Thread David M. Ensteness 
Well said Jeff.

David

The Apple Discussion Forum belongs to Apple and they've chosen to make
it publicly available.  However, in so doing, Apple isn't obligated to
air the rantings and accusations of every malcontented or malicious
poster.  You don't even have to be an Apple customer or to use Apple
products to post there--anyone could register an account and start
flaming Apple (and then their post(s) and account(s) will be deleted).
Even when the posters and problems are authentic, I can understand 
Apple
not wanting to air too much of their dirty laundry in public.  I don't
necessary agree with their approach of restricting such discussions,
but I can sort of understand their thinking and they certainly have the
right to do it.

-Jeff[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: 12" Speed

2003-06-06 Thread Phil Burk 
My apologies.  Premature send.

On Friday, June 6, 2003, at 12:07  PM, Laurent Daudelin wrote:

As one of the list nanny on this specific mailing list, I would ask
everybody to leave this thread and move on. There isn't anything
specifically helpful for G3-G4 based PowerBooks in this thread, so 
let's go
back to helpful topics.

Thank you.

-Laurent.
Phil Burk
___
Systems Support Technician
Wiley Publishing, Inc.
Indianapolis, IN
317-572-3049
Phil Burk
___
Systems Support Technician
Wiley Publishing, Inc.
Indianapolis, IN
317-572-3049
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Re: 12" Speed

2003-06-06 Thread Matt Peacock 
Considering you did not read the post Todd, I find it very hard to 
accept what you have just said.

I did not cry about censorship, I merely stated the fact that when I 
posted about the problem it was deleted and I was sent the posted 
email. You have taken my comments out of context and exaggerated them. 
I completely understand the need for Apple to preserve a company image, 
and I have no intention of running them down, on the contrary I sing 
their praises every opportunity I get.

The rules are clear, being a member, and moderator, of many forums, I 
know what is and is not acceptable for discussion. I did not start a 
complaint, I was completely professional in asking for people's 
opinions on the speed, how to improve it, and was it possibly just my 
machine with a fault. The fact that Apple got very defensive about this 
is out of my hands, however not listening to the consumers is a 
self-defeating prophecy, once again I draw your attention to the MDD 
fans and the Airport deaths. Apple clearly states the discussion boards 
are there for users to post their problems, they have become a massive 
part of customer support. After paying $1800 for this machine, and 
approximately $10,000 in the last two years on Apple hardware and 
software, and being repeatedly told about the forums, I did not see an 
issue in posting an OBSERVATION.

Finally apologies to the list nanny, while typing this I received the 
request to cease discussion. I understand this has now gone off-topic, 
but my original reply to Scott's message was completely on topic, and I 
do not appreciate having judgments made abut me from that reply.

Matt

On Friday, June 6, 2003, at 06:08  pm, Todd Ruch wrote:

The "threatening" email was really not that threatening at all, they 
simply asked you to cease and desist posting of your what I can only 
imagine were negative emails on their company discussion boards.  
Apple has not said they are going to come break down your doors and 
haul you off to jail, they simply stated you would be barred from 
posting for a period of time on THEIR servers. I thought that the 
email was fairly professional.  They have not barred you from posting 
emails on other lists (although I am sure those lists also have 
rules).  Your point about the product may be right on, however your 
cries of censorship I believe are a bit off.  The rules of those 
boards are very clear for anyone who wants to post.  I completely 
agree with Mr Reeder.

Todd

On Friday, June 6, 2003, at 09:26 AM, Dennis Reeder wrote:

I initially found it a bit disturbing hearing that Apple would not 
permit unhindered discussion of their products.  However, on 
reflection, the list belongs to Apple.  Imagine a bulletin board 
inside an Apple store where consumers can post messages.  Why should 
Apple (as a huge profitable powerful corporation) allow any 
discussion to appear on that bulletin board that didn't enhance their 
image and contribute to their bottom line?  This is definitely not 
Russia 1948!  In the former USSR a capitalist firm such as Apple 
would not be permitted to exist, not permitted to innovate, not 
permitted to compete nor would individuals be permitted any 
opportunity to criticize an industry. For crying out loud you are 
complaining about a corporations right to manage its image.  You 
don't like it tough.  Start your own company.  Your freedom of speech 
has not be infringed by an agency of the United States government. 
Cries of censorship are out of line.  You are absolutely free to 
discuss/praise/criticize Apple, Microsoft, Ford Motor Company and 
Joe's Carryout Store on your own list.  Or this list.  Or your very 
own newspaper or e'zine.  Why do you want to abridge Apple's freedom 
to operate their business as they see fit?   Your right to free 
speech and assembly is guaranteed by the United States Consitution 
not Apples papers of incorporation.  Look, I love my Mac but I have 
no illusions about Apple as a corporation.  They want to make a 
profit, as big a profit as possible.  Good for them.  I wish them all 
the success in the world.  Caveat emptor.



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Re: 12" Speed and Stalinist tendencies (OT)

2003-06-06 Thread Laurent Daudelin 
On 06/06/03 13:12, "Jeff Drummond" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Scott Howe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> 
>> A threatening email??? That is absolutely ridiculous!
>> Who was it from exactly? Thats censorship for
>> crissakes! We are only free to discuss the PowerBooks'
>> STRENGTHS and NOT it's weaknesses? What is this?
>> Russia circa 1948??
>> I would seriously like to know who wrote it (what
>> department, or how it was signed)so I can put in some
>> sort of complaint. Not that I think it would do
>> anything but just on principle.
> 
> The Apple Discussion Forum belongs to Apple and they've chosen to make
> it publicly available.  However, in so doing, Apple isn't obligated to
> air the rantings and accusations of every malcontented or malicious
> poster.  You don't even have to be an Apple customer or to use Apple
> products to post there--anyone could register an account and start
> flaming Apple (and then their post(s) and account(s) will be deleted).
> 
> Even when the posters and problems are authentic, I can understand Apple
> not wanting to air too much of their dirty laundry in public.  I don't
> necessary agree with their approach of restricting such discussions,
> but I can sort of understand their thinking and they certainly have the
> right to do it.
> 
> -Jeff[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Again, please, refrain to reply to this thread anymore. If you want to
continue the discussion, please take it off-list.

-Laurent, list nanny on G-Books list.
-- 
===
Laurent DaudelinDeveloper, Multifamily, ESO, Fannie Mae
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Washington, DC, USA
* Usual disclaimers apply *



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Re: 12" Speed and Stalinist tendencies (OT)

2003-06-06 Thread Jeff Drummond 
Scott Howe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>A threatening email??? That is absolutely ridiculous!
>Who was it from exactly? Thats censorship for
>crissakes! We are only free to discuss the PowerBooks'
>STRENGTHS and NOT it's weaknesses? What is this?
>Russia circa 1948?? 
>I would seriously like to know who wrote it (what
>department, or how it was signed)so I can put in some
>sort of complaint. Not that I think it would do
>anything but just on principle.

The Apple Discussion Forum belongs to Apple and they've chosen to make
it publicly available.  However, in so doing, Apple isn't obligated to
air the rantings and accusations of every malcontented or malicious
poster.  You don't even have to be an Apple customer or to use Apple
products to post there--anyone could register an account and start
flaming Apple (and then their post(s) and account(s) will be deleted).

Even when the posters and problems are authentic, I can understand Apple
not wanting to air too much of their dirty laundry in public.  I don't
necessary agree with their approach of restricting such discussions,
but I can sort of understand their thinking and they certainly have the
right to do it.

-Jeff[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-- 
"You can't brew a premium lager with a kool-aid mentality."  --Harold Green in
_The_Red_Green_Show_

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Re: 12" Speed

2003-06-06 Thread Todd Ruch 
The "threatening" email was really not that threatening at all, they 
simply asked you to cease and desist posting of your what I can only 
imagine were negative emails on their company discussion boards.  Apple 
has not said they are going to come break down your doors and haul you 
off to jail, they simply stated you would be barred from posting for a 
period of time on THEIR servers. I thought that the email was fairly 
professional.  They have not barred you from posting emails on other 
lists (although I am sure those lists also have rules).  Your point 
about the product may be right on, however your cries of censorship I 
believe are a bit off.  The rules of those boards are very clear for 
anyone who wants to post.  I completely agree with Mr Reeder.

Todd

On Friday, June 6, 2003, at 09:26 AM, Dennis Reeder wrote:

I initially found it a bit disturbing hearing that Apple would not 
permit unhindered discussion of their products.  However, on 
reflection, the list belongs to Apple.  Imagine a bulletin board 
inside an Apple store where consumers can post messages.  Why should 
Apple (as a huge profitable powerful corporation) allow any discussion 
to appear on that bulletin board that didn't enhance their image and 
contribute to their bottom line?  This is definitely not Russia 1948!  
In the former USSR a capitalist firm such as Apple would not be 
permitted to exist, not permitted to innovate, not permitted to 
compete nor would individuals be permitted any opportunity to 
criticize an industry. For crying out loud you are complaining about a 
corporations right to manage its image.  You don't like it tough.  
Start your own company.  Your freedom of speech has not be infringed 
by an agency of the United States government. Cries of censorship are 
out of line.  You are absolutely free to discuss/praise/criticize 
Apple, Microsoft, Ford Motor Company and Joe's Carryout Store on your 
own list.  Or this list.  Or your very own newspaper or e'zine.  Why 
do you want to abridge Apple's freedom to operate their business as 
they see fit?   Your right to free speech and assembly is guaranteed 
by the United States Consitution not Apples papers of incorporation.  
Look, I love my Mac but I have no illusions about Apple as a 
corporation.  They want to make a profit, as big a profit as possible. 
 Good for them.  I wish them all the success in the world.  Caveat 
emptor.



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Re: 12" Speed

2003-06-06 Thread Laurent Daudelin 
As one of the list nanny on this specific mailing list, I would ask
everybody to leave this thread and move on. There isn't anything
specifically helpful for G3-G4 based PowerBooks in this thread, so let's go
back to helpful topics.

Thank you.

-Laurent.
-- 
===
Laurent DaudelinDeveloper, Multifamily, ESO, Fannie Mae
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Washington, DC, USA
* Usual disclaimers apply *



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Re: 12" Speed

2003-06-06 Thread Scott Howe 

--- Dennis Reeder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I initially found it a bit disturbing hearing that
> Apple would not 
> permit unhindered discussion of their products. 
> However, on 
> reflection, the list belongs to Apple.  Imagine a
> bulletin board 
> inside an Apple store where consumers can post
> messages.  Why should 
> Apple (as a huge profitable powerful corporation)
> allow any 
> discussion to appear on that bulletin board that
> didn't enhance their 
> image and contribute to their bottom line?  This is
> definitely not 
> Russia 1948!  In the former USSR a capitalist firm
> such as Apple 
> would not be permitted to exist, not permitted to
> innovate, not 
> permitted to compete nor would individuals be
> permitted any 
> opportunity to criticize an industry. For crying out
> loud you are 
> complaining about a corporations right to manage its
> image.  You 
> don't like it tough.  Start your own company.  Your
> freedom of speech 
> has not be infringed by an agency of the United
> States government. 
> Cries of censorship are out of line.  You are
> absolutely free to 
> discuss/praise/criticize Apple, Microsoft, Ford
> Motor Company and 
> Joe's Carryout Store on your own list.  Or this
> list.  Or your very 
> own newspaper or e'zine.  Why do you want to abridge
> Apple's freedom 
> to operate their business as they see fit?   Your
> right to free 
> speech and assembly is guaranteed by the United
> States Consitution 
> not Apples papers of incorporation.  Look, I love my
> Mac but I have 
> no illusions about Apple as a corporation.  They
> want to make a 
> profit, as big a profit as possible.  Good for them.
>  I wish them all 
> the success in the world.  Caveat emptor.


Ill tell you why I have a right to complain. Because I
bought one of Apples products and as a consumer of "a
huge, profitable, powerful CAPITALIST corporation"'s
(in your own words) product, consumers like me call
the shots, not the corporations themselves. A products
quality makes or breaks a company, not the companies
rules and regulations concerning the ability to
discuss it or not. In this particular case, I believe
a discussion about the speed of a product that I paid
$1799.00 for is a valid point to share with other
consumers who may or may not be researching the
strengths/weaknesses of a particular product. Someone
coming to Apple's CONSUMER based discussion board
would assume that it's a forum for users of that
product to discuss not only the pros of a particular
product, but also consumers TRUE experiences in the
real world. Apple saying that that is not an
"acceptable" topic is censorship in my opinion and I
stick by that. 
But you're entitled to your opinion also.

Scott

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Re: 12" Speed

2003-06-06 Thread Dennis Reeder 
I initially found it a bit disturbing hearing that Apple would not 
permit unhindered discussion of their products.  However, on 
reflection, the list belongs to Apple.  Imagine a bulletin board 
inside an Apple store where consumers can post messages.  Why should 
Apple (as a huge profitable powerful corporation) allow any 
discussion to appear on that bulletin board that didn't enhance their 
image and contribute to their bottom line?  This is definitely not 
Russia 1948!  In the former USSR a capitalist firm such as Apple 
would not be permitted to exist, not permitted to innovate, not 
permitted to compete nor would individuals be permitted any 
opportunity to criticize an industry. For crying out loud you are 
complaining about a corporations right to manage its image.  You 
don't like it tough.  Start your own company.  Your freedom of speech 
has not be infringed by an agency of the United States government. 
Cries of censorship are out of line.  You are absolutely free to 
discuss/praise/criticize Apple, Microsoft, Ford Motor Company and 
Joe's Carryout Store on your own list.  Or this list.  Or your very 
own newspaper or e'zine.  Why do you want to abridge Apple's freedom 
to operate their business as they see fit?   Your right to free 
speech and assembly is guaranteed by the United States Consitution 
not Apples papers of incorporation.  Look, I love my Mac but I have 
no illusions about Apple as a corporation.  They want to make a 
profit, as big a profit as possible.  Good for them.  I wish them all 
the success in the world.  Caveat emptor.

At 10:53 AM -0400 6/6/03, G-Books wrote:
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2003 07:07:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Howe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 12" Speed
In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Matt Peacock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 > Unfortunately putting it on Apple's boards got me a
 > threatening email
 > saying if I did it again my ISP would be informed
 > and my IP blocked
 > from registering or posting again.
A threatening email??? That is absolutely ridiculous!
Who was it from exactly? Thats censorship for
crissakes! We are only free to discuss the PowerBooks'
STRENGTHS and NOT it's weaknesses? What is this?
Russia circa 1948??
I would seriously like to know who wrote it (what
department, or how it was signed)so I can put in some
sort of complaint. Not that I think it would do
anything but just on principle.
Scott


"The man who does not read good books has no advantage
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Re: 12" Speed

2003-06-06 Thread Matt Peacock 
Forgot to say,

Apparently people who complained about the MDD fan noise and the 
Airport dying problem got exactly the same treatment.

Matt

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Re: 12" Speed and Stalinist tendencies

2003-06-06 Thread Tony Coult 
Here here! Add me to the list of awkward sods prepared to complain at
corporations no matter how nice their products. I have a Pismo OS9 so that
probably counts as very unreconstructed and unmodernised...
TONY COULT


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Re: 12" Speed

2003-06-06 Thread Scott Howe 
--- Matt Peacock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 
> Unfortunately putting it on Apple's boards got me a
> threatening email 
> saying if I did it again my ISP would be informed
> and my IP blocked 
> from registering or posting again.


A threatening email??? That is absolutely ridiculous!
Who was it from exactly? Thats censorship for
crissakes! We are only free to discuss the PowerBooks'
STRENGTHS and NOT it's weaknesses? What is this?
Russia circa 1948?? 
I would seriously like to know who wrote it (what
department, or how it was signed)so I can put in some
sort of complaint. Not that I think it would do
anything but just on principle.

Scott

__
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The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

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Re: 12" Speed

2003-06-06 Thread Matt Peacock 
Same thoughts here, and we're not alone, many people on both 
MacRumors.com and Apple's own discussion boards have commented on this.

Unfortunately putting it on Apple's boards got me a threatening email 
saying if I did it again my ISP would be informed and my IP blocked 
from registering or posting again.

Everyone seems to agree it is a collection of issues, which could be 
solved by:
- Firmware update (to solve the dreadfully slow booting)
- Graphics drivers (current implementation is very, very poor)
- OS Updates (the cynic in me says Apple will put this into 10.3, as an 
incentive, imagine a post on Apple's discussion boards saying "I just 
installed 10.3 on my 12/15/17" PB and WOW! I never knew the machine 
could go that fast, every-thing's snappy, my frame-rates in games have 
improved no end etc etc")

I suppose all you can do for now is ensure you have the latest updates 
from Apple (10.2.6, Bluetooth update, CD firmware update, iMovie 3.0.3, 
iSync 1.1, Quicktime 6.3 etc etc)

Matt

On Friday, June 6, 2003, at 12:25  pm, Scott Howe wrote:

This has probably already been a topic on here so
apologies if this is redundancy in action for you all
but I was wondering what thoughts owners of the 12"
have concerning it's speed. I have maxed out the RAM
in mine and while I'm not DISpleased on it's speed,
it's a wee bit slower than I was anticipating. Anyone
else have an issue/concern and/or thought about this?
Scott

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12" Speed

2003-06-06 Thread Scott Howe 
This has probably already been a topic on here so
apologies if this is redundancy in action for you all
but I was wondering what thoughts owners of the 12"
have concerning it's speed. I have maxed out the RAM
in mine and while I'm not DISpleased on it's speed,
it's a wee bit slower than I was anticipating. Anyone
else have an issue/concern and/or thought about this?

Scott

__
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

-- 
G-Books is sponsored by  and...

 Small Dog Electronicshttp://www.smalldog.com  | Refurbished Drives |
 -- Check our web site for refurbished PowerBooks  |  & CDRWs on Sale!  |

  Support Low End Mac 

G-Books list info:  
  --> AOL users, remove "mailto:";
Send list messages to:  
To unsubscribe, email:  
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Archive: 



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