Re: Options for editing VHS movies on Lombard? (revived thread,OT)

[Jim]

Dear Listers,

Back in mid June, there was a thread centering around the use of a 
Lombard for captureing VHS movies, editing them, and putting them on 
CD.  The Lombard does not have a firewire port, but that didn't stop 
us from discussing various options, including the firewire "bridge" 
devices, and I did mildly suggest the Eskape Labs "MyVideo" USB 
product as viable.

"Michael J. Granado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>VHS format. There are about 4 tapes, but the
>information is not organized. I would like to basically edit the
>clips and then put them on a CD.

I thus became aware that I am one of many here who are interested in 
the goal of VHS to VCD conversion.

Today I was delighted to come across a very useful primer of the 
options and process for creating Video CD's.  It's well written, 
organized, and within reach of a novice such as me.

Please see 
http://www.1984-online.com/Macstuff/tips/makingmovies1.html  I do not 
know how long that page will remain, since it was posted in January 
of this year; if you value it's comments, you better scribble them 
down.

I was interested, in particular, to see the mention of two other 
"bridge" devices (aside from the Dazzle product which I do *not* 
recommend).  They are the "Formac Studio" and the "Miqlia Director's 
Cut".  Has anyone here used either of these two firewire bridges? 
With what success?  My personal goal is to convert my voluminous VHS 
library.

--Jim.

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Re: Options for editing VHS movies *LONG*

[Jim]

Bruce Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Actually, I expect that they come with an adapter like Sony's CDR
>cameras do, a full-size plastic doohickey that the little disk clips
>into for use in slot loading systems. (and looking at the specs page,
>they do)
>
>Thinking back to my home DVD player, though, I'm almost certain that it
>has a multi-sized drawer like a CD player. I'll have to look tonight.

Actually, if you consult Apple's Knowledge Base articles, you will 
find that the slot-loading mechanisms do accept smaller-sized discs. 
I have personally used the (approx. 2.5-inch diameter) discs in my 
slot-loading iMac DV (DVD drive).  Apple does specify that the discs 
must not be odd shaped.  Circular but small is fine.  I believe the 
article even has pictures, but it was a half year ago that I looked 
it all up.  I recall thinking back about this when I saw some 
"business card size" CD-R blanks on sale, but realized that they 
won't work in slot-loaders because of the irregular shape.  Mind you, 
I don't know how the new "combo" drives will work, but I bet they'll 
be ok too.  Apple should have updated the KB articles by now to 
reflect this.

--Jim.

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Re: Options for editing VHS movies *LONG*

[Bruce Johnson]

makmac wrote:

> That's cool! But I wonder what the little 8cm disks will sell for. Plus they
> record both sides so you have to flip them over. It looks like you have to
> have a spindle loading type DVD player as the tray loading and slot loading
> computers can't accept the small size.

Actually, I expect that they come with an adapter like Sony's CDR 
cameras do, a full-size plastic doohickey that the little disk clips 
into for use in slot loading systems. (and looking at the specs page, 
they do)

Thinking back to my home DVD player, though, I'm almost certain that it 
has a multi-sized drawer like a CD player. I'll have to look tonight.


-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs



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Re: Options for editing VHS movies *LONG*

[makmac]

Bruce Johnson on 6/16/02 4:25 PM wrote:

> Actually I just saw a Hitachi DV camera advertised today that records
> onto DVD-R, (and RW!) and has analogue inputs to convert VHS tapes (an
> advertised feature) to DVD.
> 
> It was being sold for $900, and looks pretty slick.
> 
> 
> 
> As Jim said, you still don't have a VCD, but you have digitized your VHS
> tapse and that's half the battle.
> 
> 
> 
That's cool! But I wonder what the little 8cm disks will sell for. Plus they
record both sides so you have to flip them over. It looks like you have to
have a spindle loading type DVD player as the tray loading and slot loading
computers can't accept the small size.

-makmac


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Re: Options for editing VHS movies *LONG*

[Jim]

At 1:52 PM -0400 6/13/02, G-Books wrote:
>The long process is converting to VCD. An hour or so of footage will take
>17 hours to encode on a 233MHz G3, and a 200MHz 604e is the minimum. A G4
>will take about 10 hours, give or take, depending on speed. Of course,
>VHS is VHS, so don't expect DV quality.

Dear Michael and other Listers,

This doesn't really belong on the g-book list... however, it is 
apparent that many of us have this same desire, so I'll add my 2c. 
As noted by others, you will spend from 10-25 minutes of time 
encoding EACH minute of DV.  You need a fast, dedicated computer for 
the job.

I tried the Hollywood Digital/Analog bridge (costs around $250), with 
negative results.  This device has a problem with keeping the frame 
from rolling in any footage over a few minutes (sometimes it doesn't 
happen till 20 min into your capture).  And there are sometimes sound 
synch problems.  These are well documented issues in the newsgroups. 
I cannot recommend the Hollywood device--even the company website has 
a plethora of products with little to no distinction as to how they 
differ; similar claims are made for the cheapest and most expensive 
items.  Horrible marketing, IMO.  If you're lucky, in the end you get 
a giant file (bought an external firewire drive to store it--another 
$250) and then the real fun begins.  You need to convert the DV file 
into an MPEG-1 fully VCD complaint file.  This is no easy task.  The 
one product that did this job cheap and easily got bought by Apple 
Computer and they killed it.  The ONLY product available now is toast 
TITANIUM (not the OEM version).  Even Toast 4 Deluxe won't do it, 
because although it can write the VCD format, it requires precisely 
defined MPEG files which are impossible to produce (unless you invest 
hundreds of hours of time learning it all, and even then it might not 
work.)

I tried the MY VIDEO product, with mixed results.  It attempts to 
compress real-time, and you end up with very very choppy footage. 
You can capture uncompressed MOV files, but you still need to convert 
to MPEG-1, as noted above, and it takes time.  The product DOES come 
with a lite version of Strata Videoshop, which is easy to use, and 
makes nice quicktime files with a variety of options... but the 
problem is that the MY VIDEO can still not capture full frame video 
(it's a usb connection) even when uncompressed.  The results are 
rarely satisfying.  Yet, at $140 for the device, it beats the results 
of Hollywood DV Bridge.  Still makes giant files, so you need a big 
hard drive and fast processor and a dedicated machine for the 
encoding.

As noted by others, there are similar video capturing products, but 
you will still need additional equipment, and the results will be 
probably less than you want.

The BEST thing to do is to get a digital video camera with firewire, 
and use IT to do the DV conversion from analog VHS.  Then use iMovie 
to do your editing, and save the footage BACK to digital videotape. 
Yes, this is a pricey option because the videocameras aren't cheap, 
and you still don't have a VCD.  However, you've got your video 
edited and onto a digital medium, and it will be somewhat more stable 
in storage than those rapidly degrading VHS analog tapes.  THEN, at a 
later date, when prices fall, convert your digital videotapes to DVD. 
Right now, DVD blanks are about $5 each, but that will change, we 
hope, with time.

However, if you really DO want a VCD, there is another option. It is 
called the Terapin (manufactured by TeraOptix).  It is essentially a 
digital VCR.  You plug the analog inputs in the back,  begin play of 
your analog videotape, and press the record button on the Terapin, 
and it does a REAL TIME encoding to VCD and burns directly to a CD 
blank.  [You need to use "consumer CD" blanks, not standard computer 
CD blanks, and the company explains this.  However, they're 
relatively cheap.]  You won't be able to edit your videos on the fly, 
but you WILL get a fast, inexpensive VCD out of it.  Quality is as 
good as VCD gets.  The Terapin retails new for about $400, but you 
can get a new one from Ebay dealers (real retailers that will include 
warranty) for about $250.  You will be left with a nice VCD-maker as 
a side benefit, which you can use to capture tv shows for watching on 
your computer.

Note that VCD quality is a hair LOWER than standard VHS, which is 
already somewhat lower than broadcast quality, and FAR less than DVD 
quality.  However, your VHS tapes are already worn and ageing, and so 
the VCD quality will be just right--anything more would be overkill.

In summary, converting VHS tapes to VCD or DVD is still not cheap. 
You will spend at least $250 (the Terapin way), and up to $1000 (for 
videocamera OR for other capture devices and hard drives and encoding 
software).  If you can wait, just put the project on the back burner 
and wait for technology to catch up.

--Jim.

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Re: Options for editing VHS movies

[Remy Davison]

>Thanks for the info. I've been looking for an excuse to upgrade to Toast
>Titanium!
>Kate
Actually, you can do it in Toast 4.0 (or 3) as well, although you need a 
separate app to export a Toast-compliant MPEG stream for burning as a 
VCD. Toast 5 simplifies things. 

As a fine point of interest, I'm pretty sure you can export an iMovie 
using Toast's VCD export plug-in, which will then burn in Toast 4. Or use 
QuickTime export.

Remember, people, it takes a l-o-n-g  time to encode. So use a 200MHz Mac 
made in the last 5 years at least.

Cheers,

RD

Remy Davison
Contributing Editor/News Editor, Insanely-Great Mac
 mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: Options for editing VHS movies

[Kathryn Odell]

Thanks for the info. I've been looking for an excuse to upgrade to Toast
Titanium!
Kate
> No, you cannot use only iMovie or QuickTime to burn a VideoCD (VCD). Remy
> did provide some software that would do it in a previous message. In my
> case, I would use Roxio Toast Titanium, which has the ability to burn
> VideoCD.
> 
> -Laurent.


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Re: Options for editing VHS movies

[Laurent Daudelin]

On 13/06/02 13:43, "Kathryn Odell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> So you can play a video cd on a dvd player? Do you just send it out from
> iMovie as quicktime for a cd?
> Kate
>> 
>> The best option would be to use some analog to digital bridge, like Dazzle
>> Hollywood, to bring the video onto your Lombard. Then, you could be able to
>> edit it in iMovie. Finally, using Toast, with a CD-RW, you could write those
>> movies as VCDs, that are playable in almost every domestic DVD player, as
>> well as in all CD-ROM drive on various computers.

No, you cannot use only iMovie or QuickTime to burn a VideoCD (VCD). Remy
did provide some software that would do it in a previous message. In my
case, I would use Roxio Toast Titanium, which has the ability to burn
VideoCD.

-Laurent.
-- 
=
Laurent Daudelin  Developer, Multifamily, ESO, Fannie Mae
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC, USA
** Usual disclaimers apply **
drone n.: Ignorant sales or customer service personnel in computer or
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Re: Options for editing VHS movies

[Kathryn Odell]

So you can play a video cd on a dvd player? Do you just send it out from
iMovie as quicktime for a cd?
Kate
>
> The best option would be to use some analog to digital bridge, like Dazzle
> Hollywood, to bring the video onto your Lombard. Then, you could be able to
> edit it in iMovie. Finally, using Toast, with a CD-RW, you could write those
> movies as VCDs, that are playable in almost every domestic DVD player, as
> well as in all CD-ROM drive on various computers.


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Re: Options for editing VHS movies on Lombard?

[Remy Davison]

>Wow! 17 hours on a 233 MHz G3, 10 hours on a G4? Wow! You ought to have a
>second computer to do something like that, or is the computer responsive
>enough that you can still work with it while it's doing its encoding?
Laurent,

I do use a 2nd Mac. The Wallstreet's assigned that duty. The HD just goes 
to sleep and so does the screen. The CPU and the FW hard drive do all the 
work. Stays pretty cool.

You can use the 'Book, but all that does is grind the encode to a halt. I 
haven't updated Cleaner to run it on X on the WS yet, but it's 
conceivable its multitasking would make it a possibility, although the 
CPU would be devoting fewer cycles to the encode. I'd rather let it sit. 

For cheap people, I usually get them a 604e 7300 or 8600 or something, 
and it becomes the standalone MPEG cruncher and VCD burner. If it's got a 
G3 card, good, all the better. It's cheaper than the $US3,000 or 
something you need for a real-time MPEG-1 hardware encoder. 

Of course, you could just by a new iMac, but I'm not convinced of the 
economics of burning VHS to DVD-R. DV, yes. Anyway, I've made about 200 
or so VCDs, so not bad. Archive my tapes (the odd documentary I want to 
preserve on CD etc.). Of course, you can easily distribute copies (not 
piratically, of course) to your friends via CD that they can play on 
their DVD players. Someone wanted to see this Reagan doco the other day. 
I hate lending out tapes, 'cos you never get 'em back, so make a VCD and 
who cares? Once you have your master CD, Toast can copy the contents 
(even if burned as session) as a disc image and burn a new VCD. So you 
don't need to retain a hard disk copy of the original 700MB MPEG, for 
example.

Of course, a gold/silver, good-quality CD is recommended for your master. 
Two of them if it's really precious.

>I was playing yesterday evening with the CapSure with iRez. AFAIR, the
highest resolution I could have was 640 x 480. That was on OS 9.2.2. How 
do
>you get 720 x 576?

ReelEyes only does 640x480. I use FCP for bigger (well, I use it for most 
things, actually). It just captures better for some reason (why it costs 
so much, I guess). If I go bigger than 720, the Lombard starts dropping 
frames, although I haven't tried lower bit depths (there's enough 
graininess in VHS as it is). Anyway, MPEG-1 takes it back to 320x240 and 
then I watch the VCD @ 1024x768 anyhow.

To reierate, QT and M-Pack MPEG-1 encoding were, IMHO, crap. Especally 
MPack. Good thing they don't sell it anymore. 

Cheers,

RD



Remy Davison
Contributing Editor/News Editor, Insanely-Great Mac
 mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: Options for editing VHS movies on Lombard?

[Laurent Daudelin]

On 13/06/02 09:15, "Remy Davison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip!]
> Capsure is bundled with iRez ReelEyes (as are most iRez products) which
> does a decent capturing job at full frame rates. I get 16-bit color @
> 720x576, or 24-bit at lower resolutions using MJPEG-B compression. The
> Lombard is fast enough to capture at 25fps PAL or 30fps NTSC.
[snip!]

Remy,

I was playing yesterday evening with the CapSure with iRez. AFAIR, the
highest resolution I could have was 640 x 480. That was on OS 9.2.2. How do
you get 720 x 576?

-Laurent.
-- 
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** Usual disclaimers apply **



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Re: Options for editing VHS movies on Lombard?

[Laurent Daudelin]

On 13/06/02 09:15, "Remy Davison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[snip!]
> The long process is converting to VCD. An hour or so of footage will take
> 17 hours to encode on a 233MHz G3, and a 200MHz 604e is the minimum. A G4
> will take about 10 hours, give or take, depending on speed. Of course,
> VHS is VHS, so don't expect DV quality. I get acceptable quality from VHS
> and Betamax footage though.
[snip!]

Wow! 17 hours on a 233 MHz G3, 10 hours on a G4? Wow! You ought to have a
second computer to do something like that, or is the computer responsive
enough that you can still work with it while it's doing its encoding?

-Laurent.
-- 
=
Laurent Daudelin  Developer, Multifamily, ESO, Fannie Mae
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Washington, DC, USA
** Usual disclaimers apply **
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Re: Options for editing VHS movies on Lombard?

[Remy Davison]

>When in school, I had videos recorded of my lab classes. Of course
>they were done in VHS format. There are about 4 tapes, but the
>information is not organized. I would like to basically edit the
>clips and then put them on a CD. I don't have a DVD recorder so that
>option is out. What options do I have? What equipment / software do I
>need? I have a Powerbook Lombard with a firewire card. A 20 GB
>internal hard drive and a 20 GB expansion bay drive. Currently with
>Mac OS 9.2.2. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
I use an iRez Capsure PCMCIA card. These are no longer available new, but 
plenty are on eBay. New, you could use iRez's Critter USBAV. I prefer the 
Capsure PC card as it generally offers better throughput and performance 
to USB input.

Capsure is bundled with iRez ReelEyes (as are most iRez products) which 
does a decent capturing job at full frame rates. I get 16-bit color @ 
720x576, or 24-bit at lower resolutions using MJPEG-B compression. The 
Lombard is fast enough to capture at 25fps PAL or 30fps NTSC. 

You need around 3.8GB for one hour of footage at this rate. You can use 
ReelEyes (quite a nice cut & paste editor) or QT Pro to edit footage into 
the order you want it (ReelEyes can even edit MPEG, which QT can't). 

Once captured, you can export the material to a Toast VideoCD a number of 
ways: with the Toast export in QT; with Cleaner ($$$, but highest 
quality; it's what I use); or any other QT-capable video app. ReelEyes 
can also export to Toast VCD. A tip a QT pro gave me was to make QT's 
player window as large as possible before exporting to VCD. VCD is MPEG-1 
format, which is lossy, but adequate. It means you can fit a full 74 or 
80 minutes' worth of material on a single CD. 

The long process is converting to VCD. An hour or so of footage will take 
17 hours to encode on a 233MHz G3, and a 200MHz 604e is the minimum. A G4 
will take about 10 hours, give or take, depending on speed. Of course, 
VHS is VHS, so don't expect DV quality. I get acceptable quality from VHS 
and Betamax footage though.

I wrote a longer version of this tutorial here:


Cheers,

RD

Remy Davison
Contributing Editor/News Editor, Insanely-Great Mac
 mail: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RD's PowerBook page: 



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Re: Options for editing VHS movies on Lombard?

[Laurent Daudelin]

on 13/06/02 05:17, Michael J. Granado at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> When in school, I had videos recorded of my lab classes. Of course
> they were done in VHS format. There are about 4 tapes, but the
> information is not organized. I would like to basically edit the
> clips and then put them on a CD. I don't have a DVD recorder so that
> option is out. What options do I have? What equipment / software do I
> need? I have a Powerbook Lombard with a firewire card. A 20 GB
> internal hard drive and a 20 GB expansion bay drive. Currently with
> Mac OS 9.2.2. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

The best option would be to use some analog to digital bridge, like Dazzle
Hollywood, to bring the video onto your Lombard. Then, you could be able to
edit it in iMovie. Finally, using Toast, with a CD-RW, you could write those
movies as VCDs, that are playable in almost every domestic DVD player, as
well as in all CD-ROM drive on various computers.

If a digital bridge is not an option, there are cheap USB digitizer, but
they support a much lower resolution.

-Laurent.
-- 

Laurent Daudelin
Logiciels Nemesys Softwaremailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

drone n.: Ignorant sales or customer service personnel in computer or
electronics superstores. Characterized by a lack of even superficial
knowledge about the products they sell, yet possessed of the conviction that
they are more competent than their hacker customers. Usage: "That video
board probably sucks, it was recommended by a drone at Fry's" In the year
2000, their natural habitats include Fry's Electronics, Best Buy, and
CompUSA. 


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Options for editing VHS movies on Lombard?

[Michael J. Granado]

When in school, I had videos recorded of my lab classes. Of course
they were done in VHS format. There are about 4 tapes, but the
information is not organized. I would like to basically edit the
clips and then put them on a CD. I don't have a DVD recorder so that
option is out. What options do I have? What equipment / software do I
need? I have a Powerbook Lombard with a firewire card. A 20 GB
internal hard drive and a 20 GB expansion bay drive. Currently with
Mac OS 9.2.2. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Mike

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