Re: Battery Reset for Pismo

[Dan K]

I'll keep this one brief :-)

power manager infos from the devnotes
   Wallstreet - 68HC05 microprocessor, also called the PMU
   Lombard - 68HC05 microprocessor, also called the Cuda PMU
   iBook - Mitsubishi M16C/62F microprocessor, also called the PMU99
   Pismo - custom IC called the PMU99

I put up a rough page which includes a link to my GestLab reports:


Dan K

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Re: Battery Reset for Pismo

[Andrew Kershaw]

Heck if I know if I even need MacsBug, but I figured if I could trap the
sysenvirons calls and see the differences between Lombard's and Pismo's
responses I'd have some good pointers as to the actual mechanism used to
differentiate the PBs. It's fun to play with actually, once you know a
few basic commands. BTW, anyone know if there's a similar debugger for OS
X?
Hmm.  MacsBug should be some help.  You could go to the debugger 
right before BR brings up it's incompatibility dialog and then try to 
step through and look for the right portion of memory.  That's a 
chore if you don't know what you are doing.  Most of the gestalts are 
16- or 32-bit binary values that would be hard to recognize with the 
eye.  A handful are hex strings, but even these will be difficult to 
recognize...  I wish I knew more about MacsBug - it can be an 
immensely powerful tool, I understand.

Any takers?  We've got to have at least one or two C/C++ programmers 
on this list that are familiar with MacsBug!

Peace,
Drew
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Re: Battery Reset for Pismo

[Andrew Kershaw]

Hmmm, I'm thinking (uh-oh!! :-) since the PB-to-battery comm is done
over a serial interface, might it be possible to directly capture (on
Lombard of course) what BR 'says' to the battery and then use that to
connect to, and reset, a battery over an external serial interface? Not
that Pismo _has_ a serial interface. H, inquiring mind wants to know
. . .
That certainly should be possible if you can figure out a way to 
snoop onto the serial bus. ;-)

FWIW, I think the VST external chargers have some of this capability 
as well.  When you recharge a battery that's at a certain charge 
level, the charger is supposed to intelligently recalibrate the 
battery.  I don't know how this is induced, and I can't say I've ever 
seen it actually work on anything other than my Wallstreet 
batteries...  (I've got the 3400/5300, Wallstreet, and Lombard/Pismo 
rechargers - definitely worth the $25/each on eBay!)  That could just 
be because my 5300 batteries are so far gone that they can't be saved 
and that my Pismo batteries aren't "gunked" up enough yet...  Who 
knows.

I just mention that so you have another branch to hunt down if 
figuring out how BR works doesn't happen.

Peace,
Drew
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Re: Battery Reset for Pismo

[Dan K]

I wrote:
> Dang it, I really want to hack Battery Reset to run on Pismo, it's gotta
> be possible!


To which Laurent Daudelin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> replied:
>You could try posting to comp.sys.mac.programmer...

Excellent idea! I'm not quite sure I hadn't noticed the 
comp.sys.mac.programmer.whatever usenet hierarchy - not a programmer I 
guess. 

Craig W. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> then asked:
>Say; can Battery Reset be used on a 2400c?
I doubt it, the battery's internal controller is probably different from 
the supported 'Books batteries. However, that gets me to wondering how 
any 'Book communicates with its battery . . . programatically that is. I 
don't have a 2400 battery. Anyone with both 2400 and 3400 LiIon batts 
care to rip open an example of each and provide some internal details? 
:-) Since I have both, I _could_ however compare 'Books' 3400 and 
Wallstreet batterys' internals.

In theory it may be possible to create a utility (or modify BR) to write 
data to a battery's controller chip. I just don't know enough about any 
of this to even guess how difficult that might be to accomplish.

Drew Kershaw chimed in:
>I don't know if this will help or not, but I can send a report of 
>what GestLab has selected for my Pismo

Nah thanks anyway, since I do have both Lombard and Pismo I generated 
complete GestLab reports awhile back. That's what I figger to put online, 
along with some MacsBug logs and whatever else little I know.

Drew again:
>Does anyone know for certain that the charging circuit/PMU are 
>identical in the Pismo and Lombard?

Nope, but that's an excellent question. I've made the assumption they are 
the same but I could easily by waay wrong. Since the PB-to-battery comm 
facility is a serial interface I suppose I could go in search of serial 
chips on the charging boards. I'm thinking though that it shouldn't 
matter, since the specific hardware is probably abstracted by the OS. 
That is, BR just sends some commands to the battery through the OS which 
handles the actual communication.

It dawns on me that perhaps the supported PB's _CAN_ write to their 
batteries, but because of different HW a Pismo _CANNOT_ write. Anyone 
know if a Pismo _can_ write to its LiIon battery in _any_ circumstance? 
As in say, resetting the power manager or something? Obviously if Pismo 
is so-limited in HW I'll get nowhere with this vainglorious quest. :-/

Drew again:
>Sorry that I can't help you with MacsBug - I know next to nothing 
>about the debugger.
Heck if I know if I even need MacsBug, but I figured if I could trap the 
sysenvirons calls and see the differences between Lombard's and Pismo's 
responses I'd have some good pointers as to the actual mechanism used to 
differentiate the PBs. It's fun to play with actually, once you know a 
few basic commands. BTW, anyone know if there's a similar debugger for OS 
X?

and finally Ned <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> poses an excellent question:
>I hate to ask what must be a stupid question, but with as much interest 
>and desire as there is on the subject of Battery Reset, isn't it odd that 
>Apple hasn't written a version for the Pismo?  Might there be a reason?  
>Has anyone asked Apple about an update that will work on a Pismo?

AFAIK Apple has not created a Pismo-compatible battery reset utility nor 
any updates to BR. As I speculate above, it's surely possible Pismo's 
battery interface cannot write to its batteries. That would go a long way 
toward explaining the absence of a Pismo-compatible battery reset tool.

Hmmm, I'm thinking (uh-oh!! :-) since the PB-to-battery comm is done 
over a serial interface, might it be possible to directly capture (on 
Lombard of course) what BR 'says' to the battery and then use that to 
connect to, and reset, a battery over an external serial interface? Not 
that Pismo _has_ a serial interface. H, inquiring mind wants to know 
. . .

 Time to dig into some technotes _and_ some HW!

Dan K (I apologize for the run-on folks, I realize this topic isn't for 
everyone :-)

.
http://macdan.n3.net/
carracho://dankephoto.dhs.org:9700
hotline://dankephoto.dhs.org:9500
.


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Re: Battery Reset for Pismo

[Ned1]

I hate to ask what must be a stupid question, but with as much interest and desire as 
there is on the subject of Battery Reset, isn't it odd that Apple hasn't written a 
version for the Pismo?  Might there be a reason?  Has anyone asked Apple about an 
update that will work on a Pismo?

Ned

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Re: Battery Reset for Pismo

[COCCORP]

In a message dated 3/8/04 8:07:08 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>I wrote:
>>>Dang it, I really want to hack Battery Reset to run on Pismo, it's gotta
>>>be possible!

Say; can Battery Reset be used on a 2400c?

Craig W.

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Re: Battery Reset for Pismo

[Andrew Kershaw]

Been there, done that (doncha just love GestLab?!?), still haven't been
able to figger the selector used by BR. I'll repeat the (huge) caveat
that I'm not a programmer, though I've tried to play one. :-)
I'll have to run over the files I generated back when I tried this the
first time, maybe something I overlooked earlier will pop out at me . . .
Dan,

I don't know if this will help or not, but I can send a report of 
what GestLab has selected for my Pismo and for my Wallstreet. 
Unfortunately, I don't have a Lombard (anyone wanna give me one? ;-), 
so I can't compare Apples to ... er... yeah.

Would that be helpful to you?  The Pismo and Wallstreet should have 
significant differences.  But I can't think of too many that would be 
different between the Pismo and Lombard.  "bclk" should be one (Pismo 
@ 100MHz bus clock, Lombard @ 66MHz, right?), "pclk" might also be 
one (though that might be the same for the 400MHz models).  Other 
than that, have you considered that mabye BR also probes the hardware?

Does anyone know for certain that the charging circuit/PMU are 
identical in the Pismo and Lombard?  It could be that the PMU uses a 
different ASIC that doesn't understand the BR reset code - 
essentially the battery power connector has a simple serial port 
implementation that is probably pretty dependent on specific 
hardware...  I don't know about any of the G3s, but a 5300 has what 
boils down to a Motorola 6502 (!!) as it's PMU controller.

Sorry that I can't help you with MacsBug - I know next to nothing 
about the debugger.

Peace,
Drew
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Re: Battery Reset for Pismo

[Laurent Daudelin]

on 08/03/04 20:06, Dan K at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I wrote:
>>> Dang it, I really want to hack Battery Reset to run on Pismo, it's gotta
>>> be possible!
> 
> to which Drew Kershaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> replied:
>> Has anyone just tried changing the gestalt?  Or are the Lombard and
>> Pismo "Mach" gestalt the same (410 for New World, I think)?
>> Otherwise, you might try playing around with GestLab to find
>> differences between the gestalts for the Lombard and Pismo.  Perhaps
>> something will stick out (bclk maybe?) that is different between the
>> two.
> Been there, done that (doncha just love GestLab?!?), still haven't been
> able to figger the selector used by BR. I'll repeat the (huge) caveat
> that I'm not a programmer, though I've tried to play one. :-)
> 
> I'll have to run over the files I generated back when I tried this the
> first time, maybe something I overlooked earlier will pop out at me . . .
> 
> I'll also see about putting up a web page with more details in case maybe
> _someone_ somewhere might be able to spot the (probably obvious) solution.
> 
> A repeat of my earlier plea for help:
> .
> I realize this isn't a hacker/programmer forum, so does anyone have any
> ideas where can I go to ask for the help I need to do this hack? I'll
> need help from someone with MacsBug and 68K-code experience (I _think_
> BR2 is written in 68K-code.) I've only a rough idea about this stuff, but
> I _do_ have the interest _and_ both PBs Lombard and Pismo on hand with
> which to play . . .
> .
> 

You could try posting to comp.sys.mac.programmer...

-Laurent.
-- 

Laurent Daudelin   AIM/iChat: LaurentDaudelin
Logiciels Nemesys Software   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

fandango on core n.: [Unix/C hackers, from the Iberian dance] In C, a wild
pointer that runs out of bounds, causing a core dump, or corrupts the
malloc(3) arena in such a way as to cause mysterious failures later on, is
sometimes said to have `done a fandango on core'. On low-end personal
machines without an MMU (or Windows boxes, which have an MMU but use it
incompetently), this can corrupt the OS itself, causing massive lossage.
Other frenetic dances such as the cha-cha or the watusi, may be substituted.
See aliasing bug, precedence lossage, smash the stack, memory leak, memory
smash, overrun screw, core. 


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