Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
I don't think I saw this mentioned already. You should be able to find a recent DVD drive with a beige front and no gaudiness. Right now, I'm looking at the front of my Pioneer DVR-112L 16X drive, and it's beige, with things like DVD and RW etched on it very inconspicuously. It's also very good at reading scratched discs that its predecessor (a 12X Pioneer) had much more trouble with. Competent drives like this are inexpensive, and will save you a lot of trouble and aggravation. For one thing, it will read DVD+R's, which older drives won't, because Apple once used drives that were older than the DVD+R standard. You can always move it another machine, too, so you'll get your money's worth out of it. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
Somewhat on topic, I have question which I feel is a bit too simple to warrant a new thread. I recently noticed that the s-video input connector on my Beige's wings card has a few extra pin holes on it, such that you could connect an s-video cable in there or something else... Does anyone know what that something else is? A component video adapter? Some kind of proprietary QuickTake camera input? -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
On Jun 16, 2010, at 2:52 PM, James Chapel wrote: I recently noticed that the s-video input connector on my Beige's wings card has a few extra pin holes on it, such that you could connect an s-video cable in there or something else... Does anyone know what that something else is? AFAIK there are two types of s-video, a rarer 7-pin version, and a more common 4-pin version that's the same physical configuration as Apple ADB. I believe the Wings card has the 7-pin s-video rather than the 4-pin. I've never used the s-video of a Wings card, although the 7- pin port is backwards compatible with a 4-pin cable. This means you must have TWO 7-pin devices to use a 7-pin cable, but you can use a 4- pin cable with any combination of 4-pin 7-pin devices. The 7-pin is slightly higher quality I believe, but not really necessary, which is why it's more rare than the common 4-pin. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
Interesting. Well, that answers the majority of my questions. Any luck with the Rage 128 + DVD Kris? On Jun 16, 1:25 pm, Kris Tilford ktilfo...@cox.net wrote: On Jun 16, 2010, at 2:52 PM, James Chapel wrote: I recently noticed that the s-video input connector on my Beige's wings card has a few extra pin holes on it, such that you could connect an s-video cable in there or something else... Does anyone know what that something else is? AFAIK there are two types of s-video, a rarer 7-pin version, and a more common 4-pin version that's the same physical configuration as Apple ADB. I believe the Wings card has the 7-pin s-video rather than the 4-pin. I've never used the s-video of a Wings card, although the 7- pin port is backwards compatible with a 4-pin cable. This means you must have TWO 7-pin devices to use a 7-pin cable, but you can use a 4- pin cable with any combination of 4-pin 7-pin devices. The 7-pin is slightly higher quality I believe, but not really necessary, which is why it's more rare than the common 4-pin. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
This is strange. The onboard should have 2MB soldered on, and the optional chip is another 4MB, giving a total of 6MB. The fact that yours is reporting 4MB seems strange, but perhaps this is because you're not using the onboard video at all? AFAIK it should report 6MB. I suppose there's a slim chance there was some type of 2MB module, or perhaps your 4MB module isn't seated well and only 2MB are being recognized? I just finished reseating the module (there appears to be only one slot, with what appears to be two VRAM chips soldered onto the motherboard underneath), plugged the monitor back into the built-in video port, started it back up and it's still only reporting 4MB VRAM. Strange. I'm going to look into this. Thus, could I add a DVD decoder card to the Rage 128 while it's in my Beige G3 for hardware-decoded DVD playback? Out of sheer curiosity, though, has anyone on the list ever attempted this? I've got a Rage 128 with the decoder card installed. It works if that's what you're asking? That's what I was asking. I've heard reports that the decoder card might not work correctly when the Rage 128 is installed in the beige's 33mhz slots (instead of the BW's 66mhz slot), but if it's working fine for you, I guess that's all the testimony I need. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:16 AM, James Chapel wrote: That's what I was asking. I've heard reports that the decoder card might not work correctly when the Rage 128 is installed in the beige's 33mhz slots (instead of the BW's 66mhz slot), but if it's working fine for you, I guess that's all the testimony I need. Wait, I'm going to check to make sure and I'll get back to you, I may have been using a Radeon rather than the Rage card? Also, I don't think the decoder module is supported in OS X at all, so that's a big minus compared to the Radeon. I'd recommend a Radeon, the 7000's can be ultra cheap if you flash a PC card, I'd guess $10 for a stock PC card unflashed perhaps? Even the real Mac 7000's are reasonable. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
I'm just using this as my project OS 9 box. There are too many problems with the beige's hardware in X to make the jump worth it (no internal floppy support, no wings personality card support, slow bus speed), not to mention the fact that I have stockpiles upon stockpiles of classic mac OS hardware, games and applications to run on the thing. I also have newer computers to handle the heavy-duty stuff. Thanks for offering to test that, though. I look forward to hearing the results. On Jun 14, 11:36 pm, Kris Tilford ktilfo...@cox.net wrote: On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:16 AM, James Chapel wrote: That's what I was asking. I've heard reports that the decoder card might not work correctly when the Rage 128 is installed in the beige's 33mhz slots (instead of the BW's 66mhz slot), but if it's working fine for you, I guess that's all the testimony I need. Wait, I'm going to check to make sure and I'll get back to you, I may have been using a Radeon rather than the Rage card? Also, I don't think the decoder module is supported in OS X at all, so that's a big minus compared to the Radeon. I'd recommend a Radeon, the 7000's can be ultra cheap if you flash a PC card, I'd guess $10 for a stock PC card unflashed perhaps? Even the real Mac 7000's are reasonable. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
On Jun 14, 11:38 pm, James Chapel dragnero...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, but AFAIK every DVD card will be mounted in a video card already, there won't be any loose decoders floating around, and since EVERY Radeon card supports hardware DVD decoding, you're MUCH better off ditching the Rage 128 and getting a Radeon 7000. I see where you're coming from here, but having just spent the money on a graphics card that handles everything I'd ever want to throw at it, I really can't seem to justify getting another one just to play back DVDs. You could also get a Wired4DVD card. This would take up another PCI slot, but would be a very contemporary (with the Beige G3) solution, which gives excellent hardware decoded DVD playback. Might be a trick finding one, although last time I checked the manufacturer was selling some really old stock for $15. If you're using the Wings, since it shares VRAM with the onboard video, it's a really good idea to have the optional 4MB VRAM chip installed. Interesting that you mention that. In the Apple System Profile I noticed that the computer reports 4MB of VRAM. Working with the motherboard, I also noticed that the VRAM chip is labled as a 4MB module. I remember reading somewhere that the Rage II+ built into the Rev-A G3s comes with 2MB VRAM built-in, for a maximum of 6MB. Is the Apple System Profiler only reporting the additional VRAM installed? Can I add an additional 2MB chip somehow? It sure sounds like your module is 2 MB or has a bad RAM chip on board making it appear as 2 MB. Try removing it and see if the system reports your 2 MB on board properly. It might be worth using the built-in ethernet to free up a slot for a controller card, I've been having nothing but problems with that 10/100 Apple card I picked up. If I'm not able sort things out in the next couple of weeks, I may do just that. SIIG made a USB2/Firewire400/Gigabit Enet combo card. When they were being closed out they were going for under $30. I don't know if there are still any out there or not. That would certainly save some slots. Jeff Walther -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
It sure sounds like your module is 2 MB or has a bad RAM chip on board making it appear as 2 MB. Try removing it and see if the system reports your 2 MB on board properly. I removed the SGRAM chip, rebooted using the on-board video and Apple System Profiler reports 2MB VRAM. I suppose it is a mislabled 2MB chip, then? -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
On Jun 15, 2010, at 2:33 PM, James Chapel wrote: I suppose it is a mislabled 2MB chip, then? I never heard of a 2MB chip, they're all 4MB AFAIK? I'd say it's a bad or dirty/poorly seated 4MB most likely. Clean those contacts and the slot and try again. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:33 PM, James Chapel wrote: It sure sounds like your module is 2 MB or has a bad RAM chip on board making it appear as 2 MB. Try removing it and see if the system reports your 2 MB on board properly. I removed the SGRAM chip, rebooted using the on-board video and Apple System Profiler reports 2MB VRAM. I suppose it is a mislabled 2MB chip, then? Probably. You can look at the numbers on the chips themselves and go to http://www.chipmunk.nl/dram/chipmanufacturers.htm to identify what you've got. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
Probably. You can look at the numbers on the chips themselves and go to http://www.chipmunk.nl/dram/chipmanufacturers.htm to identify what you've got. KM4132G271BQ-10 ^^-^^^- Internal Organization: 32-271 = 256K x 32 (8M bit): check module size/ banks 32-512 = 512K x 32(16M bit): check module size/ banks Each chip is a 32-512, so 16Mbit / 8 bits in a byte = 2MB per chip x 2 chips = 4MB Odd that even after cleaning the contacts, the VRAM still totals 4MB. It looks like I might have to replace it... -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
James Chapel wrote: Probably. You can look at the numbers on the chips themselves and go to http://www.chipmunk.nl/dram/chipmanufacturers.htm to identify what you've got. KM4132G271BQ-10 ^^-^^^- Internal Organization: 32-271 = 256K x 32 (8M bit): check module size/ banks 32-512 = 512K x 32(16M bit): check module size/ banks Each chip is a 32-512, so 16Mbit / 8 bits in a byte = 2MB per chip x 2 chips = 4MB Odd that even after cleaning the contacts, the VRAM still totals 4MB. It looks like I might have to replace it... Do the chips on your module read KM4132G271BQ-10? or KM4132G512xx- xx? If the former, then they are 8 Mbit chips for a total of 2 MB of capacity. Samsung made three SGRAM chips in this line. The two listed above and the KM4132G112 which had a 32 Mbit capacity. Jeff Walther -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
The chips read KM4132G512Q-8. On Jun 15, 7:12 pm, t...@io.com t...@io.com wrote: James Chapel wrote: Probably. You can look at the numbers on the chips themselves and go to http://www.chipmunk.nl/dram/chipmanufacturers.htm to identify what you've got. KM4132G271BQ-10 ^^-^^^- Internal Organization: 32-271 = 256K x 32 (8M bit): check module size/ banks 32-512 = 512K x 32(16M bit): check module size/ banks Each chip is a 32-512, so 16Mbit / 8 bits in a byte = 2MB per chip x 2 chips = 4MB Odd that even after cleaning the contacts, the VRAM still totals 4MB. It looks like I might have to replace it... Do the chips on your module read KM4132G271BQ-10? or KM4132G512xx- xx? If the former, then they are 8 Mbit chips for a total of 2 MB of capacity. Samsung made three SGRAM chips in this line. The two listed above and the KM4132G112 which had a 32 Mbit capacity. Jeff Walther -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
On Jun 14, 5:32 pm, James Chapel dragnero...@gmail.com wrote: 2. What model DVD-ROM drive did the DVD-equipped Beige G3s ship with and what speed did it run at (2x? 5x?) 4. All of my PCI slots are now full, so I won't have any room for a faster IDE controller card. However, would I see a substantial performance improvement in using a newer, faster drive or does the stock drive pretty much already operate at the integrated controller's 16MB/s cap? I'll speak to a couple of your questions, the ones I have experience with. 2. You can put just about any IDE DVD drive in the beige, I have a Pioneer DVR-109 in mine. 4. You will see a very large performance boost if you use a controller card (either ATA, SCSI, or SATA) and put in a new hard drive, 7200 rpm - 15,000 rpm with 8MB or 16 MB cache. It might be worth using the built-in ethernet to free up a slot for a controller card, or looking around for a combo ATA-USB Firewire PCI card. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
On Jun 14, 2010, at 2:32 PM, James Chapel wrote: Connecting the monitor back to the built-in monitor port re-enables the Wings card, but disables the graphics acceleration from the Rage 128. I always that the Wings card was a killer selling point with the Beige G3s. Is there any way around this or will I be forced to pick the lesser of two evils? Use two monitors, driven from both. Solves the problem. Yes,the Wings card only works with the built-in video. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
On Jun 14, 2010, at 4:32 PM, James Chapel wrote: 1. After installing the Rage 128 and connecting my monitor to the card, not only are the built-in Rage II+ graphics disabled (as was expected), but the A/V Wings card refuses to give me any video output in the Apple Video Player. Connecting the monitor back to the built-in monitor port re-enables the Wings card, but disables the graphics acceleration from the Rage 128. I always that the Wings card was a killer selling point with the Beige G3s. Is there any way around this or will I be forced to pick the lesser of two evils? Yes, there is a work around. If you attach a Mac-to-VGA converter, the type that has adjustable settings for resolution, to the onboard monitor output, it will create a phantom monitor and the Wings card will be enabled for input/output (if you have the right extensions, in 9.2.2 you'll need to use the older versions of ATI Resource Manager ATI Graphics Accelerator from OS 9.1 or below. You can alternately attach a real monitor to the onboard video to enable the Wings card. If you use the phantom monitor route you should setup the phantom in the Monitor Control Panel so that it only touches your real monitor Desktop on a corner, otherwise you'll loose the cursor off the edge into the phantom Desktop (if that makes any sense to you, the computer thinks the adapter is a real monitor and creates another Desktop for it that you can't see since there is no 2nd monitor). As a last resort, you can just use the onboard video. If you're using the Wings, since it shares VRAM with the onboard video, it's a really good idea to have the optional 4MB VRAM chip installed. 2. What model DVD-ROM drive did the DVD-equipped Beige G3s ship with and what speed did it run at (2x? 5x?) It doesn't matter, these don't require a special Mac ROM to boot, and any modern DVD-RW is a million times better than any optical unit that shipped with the Beige, they were all flakey back then. Use the most modern optical drive you can get. Even freebie ones from recycled PCs are better than anything that shipped with a Beige. Make sure the firmware is up-to-date on you optical drive if you can BEFORE you buy since most optical drives require a Windows PC to update the firmware. I believe Pioneer drives may have a Mac firmware updater available, but I've never owned any optical drive that I could update the firmware on a Mac, so shop carefully if you only have a Mac available. 3. Given the fact that my Rage 128 is the same kind that shipped with some of the later BW G3s, I noticed that it includes a connector for the BW's DVD decoder card. Thus, could I add a DVD decoder card to the Rage 128 while it's in my Beige G3 for hardware-decoded DVD playback? Yes, but AFAIK every DVD card will be mounted in a video card already, there won't be any loose decoders floating around, and since EVERY Radeon card supports hardware DVD decoding, you're MUCH better off ditching the Rage 128 and getting a Radeon 7000. 4. All of my PCI slots are now full, so I won't have any room for a faster IDE controller card. However, would I see a substantial performance improvement in using a newer, faster drive or does the stock drive pretty much already operate at the integrated controller's 16MB/s cap? I didn't notice much difference when I used an ATA card in my Beige, I had an Acard model. It will be limited to ATA66 speeds even if it's an ATA100 or ATA133 card. I normally booted my Beige from modern external Firewire HDs using XPostFacto's helper disk boot process that enables booting from PCI Firewire cards for OS X only, I was using Tiger 10.4.11. Firewire is much faster than the onboard HD in my experience. If you're going to use an onboard ATA card, the fancy card to use is the Sonnet Tempo Trio with ATA/FW400/USB2 on one card. Then you can use the 2nd slot for a Radeon card, and have a free 3rd slot for wifi, or TV, or whatever you might need. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions
On Jun 14, 2010, at 11:38 PM, James Chapel wrote: Would something like this do the job? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemItem=220607466243Category=41999_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DI%26otn%3D2 Yes, this is it exactly. If you're using the Wings, since it shares VRAM with the onboard video, it's a really good idea to have the optional 4MB VRAM chip installed. Interesting that you mention that. In the Apple System Profile I noticed that the computer reports 4MB of VRAM. Working with the motherboard, I also noticed that the VRAM chip is labled as a 4MB module. I remember reading somewhere that the Rage II+ built into the Rev-A G3s comes with 2MB VRAM built-in, for a maximum of 6MB. Is the Apple System Profiler only reporting the additional VRAM installed? Can I add an additional 2MB chip somehow? This is strange. The onboard should have 2MB soldered on, and the optional chip is another 4MB, giving a total of 6MB. The fact that yours is reporting 4MB seems strange, but perhaps this is because you're not using the onboard video at all? AFAIK it should report 6MB. I suppose there's a slim chance there was some type of 2MB module, or perhaps your 4MB module isn't seated well and only 2MB are being recognized? Thus, could I add a DVD decoder card to the Rage 128 while it's in my Beige G3 for hardware-decoded DVD playback? Out of sheer curiosity, though, has anyone on the list ever attempted this? I've got a Rage 128 with the decoder card installed. It works if that's what you're asking? -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
