Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[Ed Grey]

I don't think I saw this mentioned already. You should be able to find
a recent DVD drive with a beige front and no gaudiness. Right now, I'm
looking at the front of my Pioneer DVR-112L 16X drive, and it's beige,
with things like "DVD" and "RW" etched on it very inconspicuously.
It's also very good at reading scratched discs that its predecessor (a
12X Pioneer) had much more trouble with.

Competent drives like this are inexpensive, and will save you a lot of
trouble and aggravation. For one thing, it will read DVD+R's, which
older drives won't, because Apple once used drives that were older
than the DVD+R standard. You can always move it another machine, too,
so you'll get your money's worth out of it.

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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[James Chapel]

Interesting. Well, that answers the majority of my questions. Any luck
with the Rage 128 + DVD Kris?

On Jun 16, 1:25 pm, Kris Tilford  wrote:
> On Jun 16, 2010, at 2:52 PM, James Chapel wrote:
>
> > I recently noticed that the s-video input
> > connector on my Beige's wings card has a few extra pin holes on it,
> > such that you could connect an s-video cable in there or something
> > else... Does anyone know what that something else is?
>
> AFAIK there are two types of s-video, a rarer 7-pin version, and a  
> more common 4-pin version that's the same physical configuration as  
> Apple ADB. I believe the Wings card has the 7-pin s-video rather than  
> the 4-pin. I've never used the s-video of a Wings card, although the 7-
> pin port is backwards compatible with a 4-pin cable. This means you  
> must have TWO 7-pin devices to use a 7-pin cable, but you can use a 4-
> pin cable with any combination of 4-pin & 7-pin devices. The 7-pin is  
> slightly higher quality I believe, but not really necessary, which is  
> why it's more rare than the common 4-pin.

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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[Kris Tilford]

On Jun 16, 2010, at 2:52 PM, James Chapel wrote:


I recently noticed that the s-video input
connector on my Beige's wings card has a few extra pin holes on it,
such that you could connect an s-video cable in there or something
else... Does anyone know what that something else is?


AFAIK there are two types of s-video, a rarer 7-pin version, and a  
more common 4-pin version that's the same physical configuration as  
Apple ADB. I believe the Wings card has the 7-pin s-video rather than  
the 4-pin. I've never used the s-video of a Wings card, although the 7- 
pin port is backwards compatible with a 4-pin cable. This means you  
must have TWO 7-pin devices to use a 7-pin cable, but you can use a 4- 
pin cable with any combination of 4-pin & 7-pin devices. The 7-pin is  
slightly higher quality I believe, but not really necessary, which is  
why it's more rare than the common 4-pin.


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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[James Chapel]

Somewhat on topic, I have question which I feel is a bit too simple to
warrant a new thread. I recently noticed that the s-video input
connector on my Beige's wings card has a few extra pin holes on it,
such that you could connect an s-video cable in there or something
else... Does anyone know what that something else is? A component
video adapter? Some kind of proprietary QuickTake camera input?

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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[James Chapel]

The chips read "KM4132G512Q-8".

On Jun 15, 7:12 pm, "t...@io.com"  wrote:
> James Chapel wrote:
> > > Probably. You can look at the numbers on the chips themselves and go to 
> > >  to identify what 
> > > you've got.
>
> > KM4132G271BQ-10
> >     ^^-^^^- Internal Organization:
> >                     32-271  = 256K x 32 (8M bit): check module size/
> > banks
> >                     32-512  = 512K x 32(16M bit): check module size/
> > banks
>
> > Each chip is a 32-512, so 16Mbit / 8 bits in a byte = 2MB per chip x 2
> > chips = 4MB
>
> > Odd that even after cleaning the contacts, the VRAM still totals 4MB.
>
> > It looks like I might have to replace it...
>
> Do the chips on your module read "KM4132G271BQ-10"?   or KM4132G512xx-
> xx?
>
> If the former, then they are 8 Mbit chips for a total of 2 MB of
> capacity.
>
> Samsung made three SGRAM chips in this line.  The two listed above and
> the KM4132G112 which had a 32 Mbit capacity.
>
> Jeff Walther

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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[t...@io.com]

James Chapel wrote:
> > Probably. You can look at the numbers on the chips themselves and go to 
> >  to identify what you've 
> > got.
>
> KM4132G271BQ-10
> ^^-^^^- Internal Organization:
> 32-271  = 256K x 32 (8M bit): check module size/
> banks
> 32-512  = 512K x 32(16M bit): check module size/
> banks
>
> Each chip is a 32-512, so 16Mbit / 8 bits in a byte = 2MB per chip x 2
> chips = 4MB
>
> Odd that even after cleaning the contacts, the VRAM still totals 4MB.
>
> It looks like I might have to replace it...

Do the chips on your module read "KM4132G271BQ-10"?   or KM4132G512xx-
xx?

If the former, then they are 8 Mbit chips for a total of 2 MB of
capacity.

Samsung made three SGRAM chips in this line.  The two listed above and
the KM4132G112 which had a 32 Mbit capacity.

Jeff Walther

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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[James Chapel]

> Probably. You can look at the numbers on the chips themselves and go to 
>  to identify what you've 
> got.

KM4132G271BQ-10
^^-^^^- Internal Organization:
32-271  = 256K x 32 (8M bit): check module size/
banks
32-512  = 512K x 32(16M bit): check module size/
banks

Each chip is a 32-512, so 16Mbit / 8 bits in a byte = 2MB per chip x 2
chips = 4MB

Odd that even after cleaning the contacts, the VRAM still totals 4MB.

It looks like I might have to replace it...

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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jun 15, 2010, at 12:33 PM, James Chapel wrote:

>> It sure sounds like your module is 2 MB or has a bad RAM chip on board
>> making it appear as 2 MB.   Try removing it and see if the system
>> reports your 2 MB on board properly.
> 
> I removed the SGRAM chip, rebooted using the on-board video and Apple
> System Profiler reports 2MB VRAM. I suppose it is a mislabled 2MB
> chip, then?

Probably. You can look at the numbers on the chips themselves and go to 
 to identify what you've got.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[Kris Tilford]

On Jun 15, 2010, at 2:33 PM, James Chapel wrote:


I suppose it is a mislabled 2MB chip, then?


I never heard of a 2MB chip, they're all 4MB AFAIK? I'd say it's a bad  
or dirty/poorly seated 4MB most likely. Clean those contacts and the  
slot and try again.


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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[James Chapel]

> It sure sounds like your module is 2 MB or has a bad RAM chip on board
> making it appear as 2 MB.   Try removing it and see if the system
> reports your 2 MB on board properly.

I removed the SGRAM chip, rebooted using the on-board video and Apple
System Profiler reports 2MB VRAM. I suppose it is a mislabled 2MB
chip, then?

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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[t...@io.com]

On Jun 14, 11:38 pm, James Chapel  wrote:

> > Yes, but AFAIK every DVD card will be mounted in a video card already,
> > there won't be any loose decoders floating around, and since EVERY
> > Radeon card supports hardware DVD decoding, you're MUCH better off
> > ditching the Rage 128 and getting a Radeon 7000.
>
> I see where you're coming from here, but having just spent the money
> on a graphics card that handles everything I'd ever want to throw at
> it, I really can't seem to justify getting another one just to play
> back DVDs.

You could also get a Wired4DVD card.  This would take up another PCI
slot, but would be a very contemporary (with the Beige G3) solution,
which gives excellent hardware decoded DVD playback.  Might be a trick
finding one, although last time I checked the manufacturer was selling
some really old stock for $15.

> > If you're using the Wings,
> > since it shares VRAM with the onboard video, it's a really good idea
> > to have the optional 4MB VRAM chip installed.
>
> Interesting that you mention that. In the Apple System Profile I
> noticed that the computer reports 4MB of VRAM. Working with the
> motherboard, I also noticed that the VRAM chip is labled as a 4MB
> module. I remember reading somewhere that the Rage II+ built into the
> Rev-A G3s comes with 2MB VRAM built-in, for a maximum of 6MB. Is the
> Apple System Profiler only reporting the additional VRAM installed?
> Can I add an additional 2MB chip somehow?

It sure sounds like your module is 2 MB or has a bad RAM chip on board
making it appear as 2 MB.   Try removing it and see if the system
reports your 2 MB on board properly.


> > It might be worth using the
> > built-in ethernet to free up a slot for a controller card,
>
> I've been having nothing but problems with that 10/100 Apple card I
> picked up. If I'm not able sort things out in the next couple of
> weeks, I may do just that.

SIIG made a USB2/Firewire400/Gigabit Enet combo card.  When they were
being closed out they were going for under $30.   I don't know if
there are still any out there or not.  That would certainly save some
slots.

Jeff Walther

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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[onelucent]

I don't have the model # handy.  But in that era, there were Toshiba  
players that would boot OS install CDs.  Have fun.  I used an ATA PCI  
card in that machine.  One advantage I believe was that the 8 GB  
partition rule was bypassed.  Quite a computer with 768 MB ram,  
upgraded VRAM. upgraded ROM. USB-Firewire card, upgraded video card,  
upgraded DVD player, etc. One of the best-built computers ever with  
those "solid-state" drive sleds.  Never had a Firewire or USB device  
that didn't work well through a PCI card on the Beige G3.  Also,  
never went beyond Jaguar-upgraded to a B&W, then Gigabit Ethernet,  
then Digital Audio!


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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[James Chapel]

I'm just using this as my project OS 9 box. There are too many
problems with the beige's hardware in X to make the jump worth it (no
internal floppy support, no wings personality card support, slow bus
speed), not to mention the fact that I have stockpiles upon stockpiles
of classic mac OS hardware, games and applications to run on the
thing. I also have newer computers to handle the heavy-duty stuff.
Thanks for offering to test that, though. I look forward to hearing
the results.

On Jun 14, 11:36 pm, Kris Tilford  wrote:
> On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:16 AM, James Chapel wrote:
>
> > That's what I was asking. I've heard reports that the decoder card
> > might not work correctly when the Rage 128 is installed in the beige's
> > 33mhz slots (instead of the B&W's 66mhz slot), but if it's working
> > fine for you, I guess that's all the testimony I need.
>
> Wait, I'm going to check to make sure and I'll get back to you, I may  
> have been using a Radeon rather than the Rage card? Also, I don't  
> think the decoder module is supported in OS X at all, so that's a big  
> minus compared to the Radeon. I'd recommend a Radeon, the 7000's can  
> be ultra cheap if you flash a PC card, I'd guess $10 for a stock PC  
> card unflashed perhaps? Even the real Mac 7000's are reasonable.

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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[Kris Tilford]

On Jun 15, 2010, at 1:16 AM, James Chapel wrote:


That's what I was asking. I've heard reports that the decoder card
might not work correctly when the Rage 128 is installed in the beige's
33mhz slots (instead of the B&W's 66mhz slot), but if it's working
fine for you, I guess that's all the testimony I need.


Wait, I'm going to check to make sure and I'll get back to you, I may  
have been using a Radeon rather than the Rage card? Also, I don't  
think the decoder module is supported in OS X at all, so that's a big  
minus compared to the Radeon. I'd recommend a Radeon, the 7000's can  
be ultra cheap if you flash a PC card, I'd guess $10 for a stock PC  
card unflashed perhaps? Even the real Mac 7000's are reasonable.


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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[James Chapel]

> This is strange. The onboard should have 2MB soldered on, and the  
> optional chip is another 4MB, giving a total of 6MB. The fact that  
> yours is reporting 4MB seems strange, but perhaps this is because  
> you're not using the onboard video at all? AFAIK it should report 6MB.  
> I suppose there's a slim chance there was some type of 2MB module, or  
> perhaps your 4MB module isn't seated well and only 2MB are being  
> recognized?

I just finished reseating the module (there appears to be only one
slot, with what appears to be two VRAM chips soldered onto the
motherboard underneath), plugged the monitor back into the built-in
video port, started it back up and it's still only reporting 4MB VRAM.
Strange. I'm going to look into this.

> >> Thus, could I add a DVD decoder card to
> >> the Rage 128 while it's in my Beige G3 for hardware-decoded DVD
> >> playback?
>
> > Out of sheer curiosity, though, has anyone on the list ever attempted
> > this?
>
> I've got a Rage 128 with the decoder card installed. It works if  
> that's what you're asking?

That's what I was asking. I've heard reports that the decoder card
might not work correctly when the Rage 128 is installed in the beige's
33mhz slots (instead of the B&W's 66mhz slot), but if it's working
fine for you, I guess that's all the testimony I need.

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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[Kris Tilford]

On Jun 14, 2010, at 11:38 PM, James Chapel wrote:


Would something like this do the job?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=220607466243&Category=41999&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DI%26otn%3D2


Yes, this is it exactly.



If you're using the Wings,
since it shares VRAM with the onboard video, it's a really good idea
to have the optional 4MB VRAM chip installed.


Interesting that you mention that. In the Apple System Profile I
noticed that the computer reports 4MB of VRAM. Working with the
motherboard, I also noticed that the VRAM chip is labled as a 4MB
module. I remember reading somewhere that the Rage II+ built into the
Rev-A G3s comes with 2MB VRAM built-in, for a maximum of 6MB. Is the
Apple System Profiler only reporting the additional VRAM installed?
Can I add an additional 2MB chip somehow?


This is strange. The onboard should have 2MB soldered on, and the  
optional chip is another 4MB, giving a total of 6MB. The fact that  
yours is reporting 4MB seems strange, but perhaps this is because  
you're not using the onboard video at all? AFAIK it should report 6MB.  
I suppose there's a slim chance there was some type of 2MB module, or  
perhaps your 4MB module isn't seated well and only 2MB are being  
recognized?



Thus, could I add a DVD decoder card to
the Rage 128 while it's in my Beige G3 for hardware-decoded DVD
playback?


Out of sheer curiosity, though, has anyone on the list ever attempted
this?


I've got a Rage 128 with the decoder card installed. It works if  
that's what you're asking?


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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[James Chapel]

> If you attach a Mac-to-VGA converter, the
> type that has adjustable settings for resolution, to the onboard
> monitor output, it will create a "phantom" monitor and the Wings card
> will be enabled for input/output

Thanks for the suggestion. That's a good idea, especially given how I
don't really have the desk space to accommodate another Multiple Scan
15. Would something like this do the job?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=220607466243&Category=41999&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DI%26otn%3D2

> 2. You can put just about any IDE DVD drive in the beige, I have a
> Pioneer DVR-109 in mine.

> It doesn't matter, these don't require a special Mac ROM to boot, and
> any modern DVD-RW is a million times better than any optical unit that
> shipped with the Beige, they were all flakey back then. Use the most
> modern optical drive you can get.

I can understand the reliability concerns, and you can call me purist
if you want for this, but I'm looking to trick out my machine in a
relatively factory-spec way, like some auto enthusiasts do with their
classic cars. While I can bend a little by using a new drive, I want
this thing to at least *look* like it came out of the factory this
way. I.e. no black faceplates (looking for beige), no bold in-your-
face branding, no strange faceplate designs. The other concern I've
heard coming up with beige DVD upgrades is the drive door dimensions
not matching those of the front bezel, causing problems. Thus, to me,
it would seem like using an apple drive from around that time period
for the upgrade would go the most smoothly. But, again, if reliability
is an issue, feel free to point me in a direction that at least
somewhat matches what I'm looking for.

> Yes, but AFAIK every DVD card will be mounted in a video card already,
> there won't be any loose decoders floating around, and since EVERY
> Radeon card supports hardware DVD decoding, you're MUCH better off
> ditching the Rage 128 and getting a Radeon 7000.

I see where you're coming from here, but having just spent the money
on a graphics card that handles everything I'd ever want to throw at
it, I really can't seem to justify getting another one just to play
back DVDs.

> If you're using the Wings,
> since it shares VRAM with the onboard video, it's a really good idea
> to have the optional 4MB VRAM chip installed.

Interesting that you mention that. In the Apple System Profile I
noticed that the computer reports 4MB of VRAM. Working with the
motherboard, I also noticed that the VRAM chip is labled as a 4MB
module. I remember reading somewhere that the Rage II+ built into the
Rev-A G3s comes with 2MB VRAM built-in, for a maximum of 6MB. Is the
Apple System Profiler only reporting the additional VRAM installed?
Can I add an additional 2MB chip somehow?

> Thus, could I add a DVD decoder card to
> the Rage 128 while it's in my Beige G3 for hardware-decoded DVD
> playback?

Out of sheer curiosity, though, has anyone on the list ever attempted
this?

> It might be worth using the
> built-in ethernet to free up a slot for a controller card,

I've been having nothing but problems with that 10/100 Apple card I
picked up. If I'm not able sort things out in the next couple of
weeks, I may do just that.

Thanks for all of the suggestions so far, everyone. I really
appreciate the help.

--James Chapel

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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[Kris Tilford]

On Jun 14, 2010, at 4:32 PM, James Chapel wrote:


1. After installing the Rage 128 and connecting my monitor to the
card, not only are the built-in Rage II+ graphics disabled (as was
expected), but the A/V "Wings" card refuses to give me any video
output in the Apple Video Player. Connecting the monitor back to the
built-in monitor port re-enables the Wings card, but disables the
graphics acceleration from the Rage 128. I always that the Wings card
was a killer selling point with the Beige G3s. Is there any way around
this or will I be forced to pick the lesser of two evils?


Yes, there is a work around. If you attach a Mac-to-VGA converter, the  
type that has adjustable settings for resolution, to the onboard  
monitor output, it will create a "phantom" monitor and the Wings card  
will be enabled for input/output (if you have the right extensions, in  
9.2.2 you'll need to use the older versions of ATI Resource Manager &  
ATI Graphics Accelerator from OS 9.1 or below. You can alternately  
attach a real monitor to the onboard video to enable the Wings card.  
If you use the "phantom monitor" route you should setup the "phantom"  
in the Monitor Control Panel so that it only touches your real monitor  
Desktop on a corner, otherwise you'll loose the cursor off the edge  
into the phantom Desktop (if that makes any sense to you, the computer  
thinks the adapter is a real monitor and creates another Desktop for  
it that you can't see since there is no 2nd monitor). As a last  
resort, you can just use the onboard video. If you're using the Wings,  
since it shares VRAM with the onboard video, it's a really good idea  
to have the optional 4MB VRAM chip installed.



2. What model DVD-ROM drive did the DVD-equipped Beige G3s ship with
and what speed did it run at (2x? 5x?)


It doesn't matter, these don't require a special Mac ROM to boot, and  
any modern DVD-RW is a million times better than any optical unit that  
shipped with the Beige, they were all flakey back then. Use the most  
modern optical drive you can get. Even freebie ones from recycled PCs  
are better than anything that shipped with a Beige. Make sure the  
firmware is up-to-date on you optical drive if you can BEFORE you buy  
since most optical drives require a Windows PC to update the firmware.  
I believe Pioneer drives may have a Mac firmware updater available,  
but I've never owned any optical drive that I could update the  
firmware on a Mac, so shop carefully if you only have a Mac available.



3. Given the fact that my Rage 128 is the same kind that shipped with
some of the later B&W G3s, I noticed that it includes a connector for
the B&W's DVD decoder card. Thus, could I add a DVD decoder card to
the Rage 128 while it's in my Beige G3 for hardware-decoded DVD
playback?


Yes, but AFAIK every DVD card will be mounted in a video card already,  
there won't be any loose decoders floating around, and since EVERY  
Radeon card supports hardware DVD decoding, you're MUCH better off  
ditching the Rage 128 and getting a Radeon 7000.



4. All of my PCI slots are now full, so I won't have any room for a
faster IDE controller card. However, would I see a substantial
performance improvement in using a newer, faster drive or does the
stock drive pretty much already operate at the integrated controller's
16MB/s cap?


I didn't notice much difference when I used an ATA card in my Beige, I  
had an Acard model. It will be limited to ATA66 speeds even if it's an  
ATA100 or ATA133 card. I normally booted my Beige from modern external  
Firewire HDs using XPostFacto's "helper disk" boot process that  
enables booting from PCI Firewire cards for OS X only, I was using  
Tiger 10.4.11. Firewire is much faster than the onboard HD in my  
experience. If you're going to use an onboard ATA card, the fancy card  
to use is the Sonnet Tempo Trio with ATA/FW400/USB2 on one card. Then  
you can use the 2nd slot for a Radeon card, and have a free 3rd slot  
for wifi, or TV, or whatever you might need.


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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[Bruce Johnson]

On Jun 14, 2010, at 2:32 PM, James Chapel wrote:

>  Connecting the monitor back to the
> built-in monitor port re-enables the Wings card, but disables the
> graphics acceleration from the Rage 128. I always that the Wings card
> was a killer selling point with the Beige G3s. Is there any way around
> this or will I be forced to pick the lesser of two evils?

Use two monitors, driven from both. Solves the problem. Yes,the Wings card only 
works with the built-in video.

-- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


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Re: Beige G3 Upgrade Questions

[dc]

On Jun 14, 5:32 pm, James Chapel  wrote:

> 2. What model DVD-ROM drive did the DVD-equipped Beige G3s ship with
> and what speed did it run at (2x? 5x?)

> 4. All of my PCI slots are now full, so I won't have any room for a
> faster IDE controller card. However, would I see a substantial
> performance improvement in using a newer, faster drive or does the
> stock drive pretty much already operate at the integrated controller's
> 16MB/s cap?

I'll speak to a couple of your questions, the ones I have experience
with.
2. You can put just about any IDE DVD drive in the beige, I have a
Pioneer DVR-109 in mine.
4. You will see a very large performance boost if you use a controller
card (either ATA, SCSI, or SATA) and put in a new hard drive, 7200 rpm
- 15,000 rpm with 8MB or 16 MB cache. It might be worth using the
built-in ethernet to free up a slot for a controller card, or looking
around for a combo ATA-USB Firewire PCI card.

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