Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?

2010-08-10 Thread Geke
To finish off this thread (at least the title topic) and for the
record:
-The Digital Audio's 466MHz does fit -- as is -- into the Gigabit. So
no soldering needed there, it's not even too tight.
-The processor runs at 350MHz, just as Len predicted.

However, I can't get the Sonnet card to work in the DA. (Right now I
can't find the thread where I posted that, when I do I'll write
something there as well.)
Since my previous post, I discovered that a special Sonnet patch is
indeed needed. The full story:
1. Do Apple's firmware update. This can only be done when booted from
Mac OS 9.
2. Download and install the correct patch (they call it firmware
update too, confusingly) for the Sonnet card and the OS (I think 10.4
and 10.5 is the same patch). This can be done in OS X, but you have to
reboot in programmer's mode. The instructions are quite clear (or
maybe they aren't, because after all I can't get the card to work...)

So I installed that patch on the DA (sub-1.4GHz speed, 10.4; final
message: patch successfully installed) but the computer doesn't boot
with the Sonnet inside.
Just now I realize that I forgot to try resetting the PRAM, but that's
the only thing I can think of now.
I've reset the PMMU already -- I'm not sure that's the right name; but
what I did was to unplug the computer, take out the backup battery,
and press the little button close to it on the motherboard.

If you have any ideas what I can try more, please let me know!

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Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?

2010-08-10 Thread Len Gerstel


On Aug 10, 2010, at 4:54 PM, Geke wrote:


To finish off this thread (at least the title topic) and for the
record:
-The Digital Audio's 466MHz does fit -- as is -- into the Gigabit. So
no soldering needed there, it's not even too tight.


Did not know that. My warning was based upon QS processors and my  
memory said they were the same size. After 20 it is all down hill, I  
I've been going down that hill for over 30 years.




However, I can't get the Sonnet card to work in the DA.


REALLY stupid question. Some G4 upgrades are mhz specific. ie, they  
will only work in 100 OR 133 MHz bus machines. Do you know that this  
will work in either?


Len

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Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?

2010-08-07 Thread Kris Tilford

On Aug 6, 2010, at 10:59 PM, Chance Reecher wrote:


Erm... I have to disagree with that.

I put 10.5 on my mom's P4 Dell with a 2.8GHz CPU and 1GB of RAM.  
It's way more responsive than my 1GHz single MDD and about equal to  
my dual 1GHz MDD.


And... flash video is actually watchable and doesn't max out the CPU.


I'll second that. In my experience with OS X, a P4 beats a G4, but  
this is an OS X  Flash thing, not a P4 vs. G4 thing. The G4 is the  
better/faster CPU. But OS X is optimized for CISC CPUs like the P4, so  
when it was ported from Next to Apple the upshot was that about 10-15%  
of OS X cycles are totally wasted on a RISC CPU like the G4. See:http://unsanity.org/archives/44.php 
 (note: this posting correctly foresaw the switch from PPC to Intel  
CPUs by Apple several YEARS in advance of the announced changeover.)


When comparing a P4 vs. G4 with OS X a fairer comparison would be  
comparing 10.5.8 on the P4 vs. 10.4.11 on the G4. Perhaps if both the  
P4 and G4 were running 10.4.11 the G4 might even win, as it should.


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Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?

2010-08-07 Thread Wallace Adrian D'Alessio
On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 7:12 AM, Kris Tilford ktilfo...@cox.net wrote:

 On Aug 6, 2010, at 10:59 PM, Chance Reecher wrote:

  Erm... I have to disagree with that.

 I put 10.5 on my mom's P4 Dell with a 2.8GHz CPU and 1GB of RAM. It's way
 more responsive than my 1GHz single MDD and about equal to my dual 1GHz MDD.

 And... flash video is actually watchable and doesn't max out the CPU.


 I'll second that. In my experience with OS X, a P4 beats a G4, but this is
 an OS X  Flash thing, not a P4 vs. G4 thing. The G4 is the better/faster
 CPU. But OS X is optimized for CISC CPUs like the P4, so when it was ported
 from Next to Apple the upshot was that about 10-15% of OS X cycles are
 totally wasted on a RISC CPU like the G4. See:
 http://unsanity.org/archives/44.php (note: this posting correctly
 foresaw the switch from PPC to Intel CPUs by Apple several YEARS in advance
 of the announced changeover.)

 When comparing a P4 vs. G4 with OS X a fairer comparison would be comparing
 10.5.8 on the P4 vs. 10.4.11 on the G4. Perhaps if both the P4 and G4 were
 running 10.4.11 the G4 might even win, as it should.

 _


An astute and fair assessment kris.

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Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?

2010-08-07 Thread Geke
Thanks everyone for the great response.
The soldering Len mentioned was enough for me to forget about the
option of putting the DA's processor into the Gigabit.
And then, today I discovered that original 400MHz processors for the
Gigabit can be found on ebay for less than 15$, so I decided to simply
get one of those. That is, IF...

yes, IF I can get the Sonnet upgrade to work in the Digital Audio!
Because I just put it in and the DA didn’t start up at all. I mean,
HDs etc are running, but no picture on the screen.

1. I have closely followed the instructions in a Sonnet document
called encore_st_g4_no_sink_qsg.pdf, so I’m wondering what I have
missed?

2. For the time being, I've put the DA's own 466MHz back, but I'm not
feeling very easy about the stuff between processor and heat sink,
though.
The Sonnet document doesn't talk about that at all. Any advice on
that?

3. I installed Temperature Monitor to keep an eye on the CPU, but it
gives me only the temperature of the harddisk.

Maybe tomorrow will be a better day...

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will DA processor fit in Gigabit?

2010-08-06 Thread Geke
I just got a Gigabit with a Sonnet Encore ST/G4 1GHz processor upgrade
inside.
Now I want to swap that Sonnet with the 466MHz cpu in my Digital
Audio, but before I do that, I wanted to check two things here:

1. How tricky is it to put the DA's CPU into the Gigabit? The CPU is
the same, but I read that the location of the CPU card on machines
previous to the digital audio would require some modifications to the
motherboard/case.
(The other way I can manage; I have the Sonnet instructions for
putting in the Encore.)

2. What do I gain by this swap? I mean, the DA is a bit newer and
faster, but is it worth it, or should I just switch to the Gigabit?
- I have already tried the DA's video card in the Gigabit and it works
OK; does it make a big difference that the DA is AGPx4 and the Gigabit
AGPx2?
- The RAM in both computers is PC-133
- Does the slower ATA bus speed of the Gigabit make a big difference
in actual practice?

Thanks in advance for your views!

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Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?

2010-08-06 Thread Len Gerstel


On Aug 6, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Geke wrote:


I just got a Gigabit with a Sonnet Encore ST/G4 1GHz processor upgrade
inside.
Now I want to swap that Sonnet with the 466MHz cpu in my Digital
Audio, but before I do that, I wanted to check two things here:

1. How tricky is it to put the DA's CPU into the Gigabit? The CPU is
the same, but I read that the location of the CPU card on machines
previous to the digital audio would require some modifications to the
motherboard/case.
(The other way I can manage; I have the Sonnet instructions for
putting in the Encore.)


2 Main considerations.

1) I think with the DA Card (I know with a QS card) you have to  
remove one of the 2 IDE connectors on the motherboard to get it to  
fit. We are talking board level soldering.


2) The DA has a 133MHz bus speed and the gigabit has a 100MHz. The  
466 has a 3.5 x multiplier so if you do the work above you will

only have a 350MHz machine.


2. What do I gain by this swap? I mean, the DA is a bit newer and
faster, but is it worth it, or should I just switch to the Gigabit?


Between the faster bus speed and 4 x AGP, yes, switch.

- I have already tried the DA's video card in the Gigabit and it works
OK; does it make a big difference that the DA is AGPx4 and the Gigabit
AGPx2?


If the card can take advantage of it, yes it does.

- The RAM in both computers is PC-133


Good, it is swappable


- Does the slower ATA bus speed of the Gigabit make a big difference
in actual practice?


AFAIK, the ATA drive interfaces are the same. There is a faster  
motherboard bus speed on the DAs (133 vs 100) and that DOES make a  
difference.


Len


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Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?

2010-08-06 Thread Bill Connelly


On Aug 6, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Geke wrote:


- Does the slower ATA bus speed of the Gigabit make a big difference
in actual practice?



I seem to remember someone saying, that the System Bus speed bump from  
100 to 133 was significant, but that after that (167?) folks didn't  
see much improvement on G4s.


www.barefeats.com might have some benchmarks ...

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Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?

2010-08-06 Thread Peter Haas


On Aug 6, 2010, at 7:12 AM, Geke wrote:


1. How tricky is it to put the DA's CPU into the Gigabit? The CPU is
the same, but I read that the location of the CPU card on machines
previous to the digital audio would require some modifications to the
motherboard/case.
(The other way I can manage; I have the Sonnet instructions for
putting in the Encore.)



The Giga-Designs processor upgrades were designed from the outset to  
fit in either processor position: the old position as found in the  
Gigabit Ethernet G4s or the new position as found in the Digital  
Audio and Quicksilver G4s. Giga does this by having a two-position  
processor cooler, and an innovative board layout which accommodates  
the special need of the Gigabit Ethernet for access to its optical/ 
ZIP drive PATA channel.


The Giga-Designs processors were also designed for easy changes from  
a 100 MHz bus machine to a 133 MHz bus machine.


I don't know if Encore offers this same flexibility.



2. What do I gain by this swap? I mean, the DA is a bit newer and
faster, but is it worth it, or should I just switch to the Gigabit?
- I have already tried the DA's video card in the Gigabit and it works
OK; does it make a big difference that the DA is AGPx4 and the Gigabit
AGPx2?
- The RAM in both computers is PC-133
- Does the slower ATA bus speed of the Gigabit make a big difference
in actual practice?


It can make a difference, but that difference is probably somewhere  
in the neighborhood of 150 minutes to do a complex DVD authoring/ 
mastering job on a Gigabit Ethernet (100 MHz bus, an slower ATA  
channel) to 120 minutes to do the same job on a Digital Audio or a  
Quicksilver (133 MHz bus and faster ATA channel).


In stark contrast, a Shuttle SP35 OSx86 Hackintosh can do that same  
DVD authoring/mastering job in 12 minutes ... a 10-to-1 improvement  
in wall-cock-time, which is certainly one important measure of  
performance.


I still retain 133 MHz bus G4s for ordinary work (such as web access  
and Mail.app access, for which a 133 MHz bus and a dual 1.0 GHz G4  
processor is certainly satisfactory).


All the heavy lifting in my shop is now run on OSx86 Hackintoshes  
with, variously, 800 MHz to 1600 MHz buses and dual or quad Intel  
processors in the very high 2 MHz to low 3 MHz range (Pentium Dual- 
Core E6700 3.2 GHz, but over-clockable to 3.8 GHz to Core 2 Quad  
Q9550 2.83 GHz, but over-clockable to 3.4 GHz; however, I rarely  
operate my processors over-clocked, preferring reliability over  
excessive stress on the various components).



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Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?

2010-08-06 Thread Daniel Stewart
I can't agree with that.  A P4 is the definition of hype verses
performance.  My G4 933 mhz Quicksilver is more responsive then a P4
at twice the clock speed and the ram is PC133 on my QS and it is still
the better machine.   P4s were not even that great with windows.  Plus
a P4 is basically a space heater in a computer case.

On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Illirik Smirnov illir...@gmail.com wrote:
 Yes, it will fit. Yes, it will be much faster. But you don't gain terribly
 much from it. It's still an
 old G4, and it won't blaze along at very many things. If you want speed, just pony up $100, buy a faster P4 desktop, and OSX86 the thing.
 Sent from a computer running either the SPARC, Itanium, or PowerPC
 architecture.


 On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Peter Haas peterh...@cruzio.com wrote:

 On Aug 6, 2010, at 7:12 AM, Geke wrote:

 1. How tricky is it to put the DA's CPU into the Gigabit? The CPU is
 the same, but I read that the location of the CPU card on machines
 previous to the digital audio would require some modifications to the
 motherboard/case.
 (The other way I can manage; I have the Sonnet instructions for
 putting in the Encore.)


 The Giga-Designs processor upgrades were designed from the outset to fit
 in either processor position: the old position as found in the Gigabit
 Ethernet G4s or the new position as found in the Digital Audio and
 Quicksilver G4s. Giga does this by having a two-position processor cooler,
 and an innovative board layout which accommodates the special need of the
 Gigabit Ethernet for access to its optical/ZIP drive PATA channel.

 The Giga-Designs processors were also designed for easy changes from a 100
 MHz bus machine to a 133 MHz bus machine.

 I don't know if Encore offers this same flexibility.


 2. What do I gain by this swap? I mean, the DA is a bit newer and
 faster, but is it worth it, or should I just switch to the Gigabit?
 - I have already tried the DA's video card in the Gigabit and it works
 OK; does it make a big difference that the DA is AGPx4 and the Gigabit
 AGPx2?
 - The RAM in both computers is PC-133
 - Does the slower ATA bus speed of the Gigabit make a big difference
 in actual practice?

 It can make a difference, but that difference is probably somewhere in the
 neighborhood of 150 minutes to do a complex DVD authoring/mastering job on a
 Gigabit Ethernet (100 MHz bus, an slower ATA channel) to 120 minutes to do
 the same job on a Digital Audio or a Quicksilver (133 MHz bus and faster ATA
 channel).

 In stark contrast, a Shuttle SP35 OSx86 Hackintosh can do that same DVD
 authoring/mastering job in 12 minutes ... a 10-to-1 improvement in
 wall-cock-time, which is certainly one important measure of performance.

 I still retain 133 MHz bus G4s for ordinary work (such as web access and
 Mail.app access, for which a 133 MHz bus and a dual 1.0 GHz G4 processor is
 certainly satisfactory).

 All the heavy lifting in my shop is now run on OSx86 Hackintoshes with,
 variously, 800 MHz to 1600 MHz buses and dual or quad Intel processors in
 the very high 2 MHz to low 3 MHz range (Pentium Dual-Core E6700 3.2 GHz, but
 over-clockable to 3.8 GHz to Core 2 Quad Q9550 2.83 GHz, but over-clockable
 to 3.4 GHz; however, I rarely operate my processors over-clocked, preferring
 reliability over excessive stress on the various components).


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Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?

2010-08-06 Thread Jason Brown

 On 8/6/2010 3:14 PM, Daniel Stewart wrote:

I can't agree with that.  A P4 is the definition of hype verses
performance.  My G4 933 mhz Quicksilver is more responsive then a P4
at twice the clock speed and the ram is PC133 on my QS and it is still
the better machine.   P4s were not even that great with windows.  Plus
a P4 is basically a space heater in a computer case.


Agreed, I just replaced a 1.8 GHz P4 with a dual 933 P3 system. The P3 
outperforms it lol.


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Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?

2010-08-06 Thread Wallace Adrian D'Alessio
On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Jason Brown jason_brown1...@att.netwrote:

  On 8/6/2010 3:14 PM, Daniel Stewart wrote:

 I can't agree with that.  A P4 is the definition of hype verses
 performance.  My G4 933 mhz Quicksilver is more responsive then a P4
 at twice the clock speed and the ram is PC133 on my QS and it is still
 the better machine.   P4s were not even that great with windows.  Plus
 a P4 is basically a space heater in a computer case.


 Agreed, I just replaced a 1.8 GHz P4 with a dual 933 P3 system. The P3
 outperforms it lol.

 -- ___


Not unique,

As testified to by the PCI Macs archive many found certain G3 setups
outperforming G4s.

A source of wonder and bemusement on that list for years


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fluxstrin...@gmail.com

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