Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?
To finish off this thread (at least the title topic) and for the record: -The Digital Audio's 466MHz does fit -- as is -- into the Gigabit. So no soldering needed there, it's not even too tight. -The processor runs at 350MHz, just as Len predicted. However, I can't get the Sonnet card to work in the DA. (Right now I can't find the thread where I posted that, when I do I'll write something there as well.) Since my previous post, I discovered that a special Sonnet patch is indeed needed. The full story: 1. Do Apple's firmware update. This can only be done when booted from Mac OS 9. 2. Download and install the correct patch (they call it firmware update too, confusingly) for the Sonnet card and the OS (I think 10.4 and 10.5 is the same patch). This can be done in OS X, but you have to reboot in programmer's mode. The instructions are quite clear (or maybe they aren't, because after all I can't get the card to work...) So I installed that patch on the DA (sub-1.4GHz speed, 10.4; final message: patch successfully installed) but the computer doesn't boot with the Sonnet inside. Just now I realize that I forgot to try resetting the PRAM, but that's the only thing I can think of now. I've reset the PMMU already -- I'm not sure that's the right name; but what I did was to unplug the computer, take out the backup battery, and press the little button close to it on the motherboard. If you have any ideas what I can try more, please let me know! -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?
On Aug 10, 2010, at 4:54 PM, Geke wrote: To finish off this thread (at least the title topic) and for the record: -The Digital Audio's 466MHz does fit -- as is -- into the Gigabit. So no soldering needed there, it's not even too tight. Did not know that. My warning was based upon QS processors and my memory said they were the same size. After 20 it is all down hill, I I've been going down that hill for over 30 years. However, I can't get the Sonnet card to work in the DA. REALLY stupid question. Some G4 upgrades are mhz specific. ie, they will only work in 100 OR 133 MHz bus machines. Do you know that this will work in either? Len -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?
On Aug 6, 2010, at 10:59 PM, Chance Reecher wrote: Erm... I have to disagree with that. I put 10.5 on my mom's P4 Dell with a 2.8GHz CPU and 1GB of RAM. It's way more responsive than my 1GHz single MDD and about equal to my dual 1GHz MDD. And... flash video is actually watchable and doesn't max out the CPU. I'll second that. In my experience with OS X, a P4 beats a G4, but this is an OS X Flash thing, not a P4 vs. G4 thing. The G4 is the better/faster CPU. But OS X is optimized for CISC CPUs like the P4, so when it was ported from Next to Apple the upshot was that about 10-15% of OS X cycles are totally wasted on a RISC CPU like the G4. See:http://unsanity.org/archives/44.php (note: this posting correctly foresaw the switch from PPC to Intel CPUs by Apple several YEARS in advance of the announced changeover.) When comparing a P4 vs. G4 with OS X a fairer comparison would be comparing 10.5.8 on the P4 vs. 10.4.11 on the G4. Perhaps if both the P4 and G4 were running 10.4.11 the G4 might even win, as it should. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?
On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 7:12 AM, Kris Tilford ktilfo...@cox.net wrote: On Aug 6, 2010, at 10:59 PM, Chance Reecher wrote: Erm... I have to disagree with that. I put 10.5 on my mom's P4 Dell with a 2.8GHz CPU and 1GB of RAM. It's way more responsive than my 1GHz single MDD and about equal to my dual 1GHz MDD. And... flash video is actually watchable and doesn't max out the CPU. I'll second that. In my experience with OS X, a P4 beats a G4, but this is an OS X Flash thing, not a P4 vs. G4 thing. The G4 is the better/faster CPU. But OS X is optimized for CISC CPUs like the P4, so when it was ported from Next to Apple the upshot was that about 10-15% of OS X cycles are totally wasted on a RISC CPU like the G4. See: http://unsanity.org/archives/44.php (note: this posting correctly foresaw the switch from PPC to Intel CPUs by Apple several YEARS in advance of the announced changeover.) When comparing a P4 vs. G4 with OS X a fairer comparison would be comparing 10.5.8 on the P4 vs. 10.4.11 on the G4. Perhaps if both the P4 and G4 were running 10.4.11 the G4 might even win, as it should. _ An astute and fair assessment kris. -- Adrian D'Alessio aka; Fluxstringer fluxstrin...@gmail.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/fluxstreamcommunication/ http://www.youtube.com/fluxstringer http://www.facebook.com/FluxStringer http://www.linkedin.com/in/fluxstreamcommunications http://flux-influx.blogspot.com/ http://fluxdreams.designbinder.com/ -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?
Thanks everyone for the great response. The soldering Len mentioned was enough for me to forget about the option of putting the DA's processor into the Gigabit. And then, today I discovered that original 400MHz processors for the Gigabit can be found on ebay for less than 15$, so I decided to simply get one of those. That is, IF... yes, IF I can get the Sonnet upgrade to work in the Digital Audio! Because I just put it in and the DA didn’t start up at all. I mean, HDs etc are running, but no picture on the screen. 1. I have closely followed the instructions in a Sonnet document called encore_st_g4_no_sink_qsg.pdf, so I’m wondering what I have missed? 2. For the time being, I've put the DA's own 466MHz back, but I'm not feeling very easy about the stuff between processor and heat sink, though. The Sonnet document doesn't talk about that at all. Any advice on that? 3. I installed Temperature Monitor to keep an eye on the CPU, but it gives me only the temperature of the harddisk. Maybe tomorrow will be a better day... -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
will DA processor fit in Gigabit?
I just got a Gigabit with a Sonnet Encore ST/G4 1GHz processor upgrade inside. Now I want to swap that Sonnet with the 466MHz cpu in my Digital Audio, but before I do that, I wanted to check two things here: 1. How tricky is it to put the DA's CPU into the Gigabit? The CPU is the same, but I read that the location of the CPU card on machines previous to the digital audio would require some modifications to the motherboard/case. (The other way I can manage; I have the Sonnet instructions for putting in the Encore.) 2. What do I gain by this swap? I mean, the DA is a bit newer and faster, but is it worth it, or should I just switch to the Gigabit? - I have already tried the DA's video card in the Gigabit and it works OK; does it make a big difference that the DA is AGPx4 and the Gigabit AGPx2? - The RAM in both computers is PC-133 - Does the slower ATA bus speed of the Gigabit make a big difference in actual practice? Thanks in advance for your views! -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?
On Aug 6, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Geke wrote: I just got a Gigabit with a Sonnet Encore ST/G4 1GHz processor upgrade inside. Now I want to swap that Sonnet with the 466MHz cpu in my Digital Audio, but before I do that, I wanted to check two things here: 1. How tricky is it to put the DA's CPU into the Gigabit? The CPU is the same, but I read that the location of the CPU card on machines previous to the digital audio would require some modifications to the motherboard/case. (The other way I can manage; I have the Sonnet instructions for putting in the Encore.) 2 Main considerations. 1) I think with the DA Card (I know with a QS card) you have to remove one of the 2 IDE connectors on the motherboard to get it to fit. We are talking board level soldering. 2) The DA has a 133MHz bus speed and the gigabit has a 100MHz. The 466 has a 3.5 x multiplier so if you do the work above you will only have a 350MHz machine. 2. What do I gain by this swap? I mean, the DA is a bit newer and faster, but is it worth it, or should I just switch to the Gigabit? Between the faster bus speed and 4 x AGP, yes, switch. - I have already tried the DA's video card in the Gigabit and it works OK; does it make a big difference that the DA is AGPx4 and the Gigabit AGPx2? If the card can take advantage of it, yes it does. - The RAM in both computers is PC-133 Good, it is swappable - Does the slower ATA bus speed of the Gigabit make a big difference in actual practice? AFAIK, the ATA drive interfaces are the same. There is a faster motherboard bus speed on the DAs (133 vs 100) and that DOES make a difference. Len -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?
On Aug 6, 2010, at 10:12 AM, Geke wrote: - Does the slower ATA bus speed of the Gigabit make a big difference in actual practice? I seem to remember someone saying, that the System Bus speed bump from 100 to 133 was significant, but that after that (167?) folks didn't see much improvement on G4s. www.barefeats.com might have some benchmarks ... -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?
On Aug 6, 2010, at 7:12 AM, Geke wrote: 1. How tricky is it to put the DA's CPU into the Gigabit? The CPU is the same, but I read that the location of the CPU card on machines previous to the digital audio would require some modifications to the motherboard/case. (The other way I can manage; I have the Sonnet instructions for putting in the Encore.) The Giga-Designs processor upgrades were designed from the outset to fit in either processor position: the old position as found in the Gigabit Ethernet G4s or the new position as found in the Digital Audio and Quicksilver G4s. Giga does this by having a two-position processor cooler, and an innovative board layout which accommodates the special need of the Gigabit Ethernet for access to its optical/ ZIP drive PATA channel. The Giga-Designs processors were also designed for easy changes from a 100 MHz bus machine to a 133 MHz bus machine. I don't know if Encore offers this same flexibility. 2. What do I gain by this swap? I mean, the DA is a bit newer and faster, but is it worth it, or should I just switch to the Gigabit? - I have already tried the DA's video card in the Gigabit and it works OK; does it make a big difference that the DA is AGPx4 and the Gigabit AGPx2? - The RAM in both computers is PC-133 - Does the slower ATA bus speed of the Gigabit make a big difference in actual practice? It can make a difference, but that difference is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 minutes to do a complex DVD authoring/ mastering job on a Gigabit Ethernet (100 MHz bus, an slower ATA channel) to 120 minutes to do the same job on a Digital Audio or a Quicksilver (133 MHz bus and faster ATA channel). In stark contrast, a Shuttle SP35 OSx86 Hackintosh can do that same DVD authoring/mastering job in 12 minutes ... a 10-to-1 improvement in wall-cock-time, which is certainly one important measure of performance. I still retain 133 MHz bus G4s for ordinary work (such as web access and Mail.app access, for which a 133 MHz bus and a dual 1.0 GHz G4 processor is certainly satisfactory). All the heavy lifting in my shop is now run on OSx86 Hackintoshes with, variously, 800 MHz to 1600 MHz buses and dual or quad Intel processors in the very high 2 MHz to low 3 MHz range (Pentium Dual- Core E6700 3.2 GHz, but over-clockable to 3.8 GHz to Core 2 Quad Q9550 2.83 GHz, but over-clockable to 3.4 GHz; however, I rarely operate my processors over-clocked, preferring reliability over excessive stress on the various components). -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?
I can't agree with that. A P4 is the definition of hype verses performance. My G4 933 mhz Quicksilver is more responsive then a P4 at twice the clock speed and the ram is PC133 on my QS and it is still the better machine. P4s were not even that great with windows. Plus a P4 is basically a space heater in a computer case. On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Illirik Smirnov illir...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, it will fit. Yes, it will be much faster. But you don't gain terribly much from it. It's still an old G4, and it won't blaze along at very many things. If you want speed, just pony up $100, buy a faster P4 desktop, and OSX86 the thing. Sent from a computer running either the SPARC, Itanium, or PowerPC architecture. On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Peter Haas peterh...@cruzio.com wrote: On Aug 6, 2010, at 7:12 AM, Geke wrote: 1. How tricky is it to put the DA's CPU into the Gigabit? The CPU is the same, but I read that the location of the CPU card on machines previous to the digital audio would require some modifications to the motherboard/case. (The other way I can manage; I have the Sonnet instructions for putting in the Encore.) The Giga-Designs processor upgrades were designed from the outset to fit in either processor position: the old position as found in the Gigabit Ethernet G4s or the new position as found in the Digital Audio and Quicksilver G4s. Giga does this by having a two-position processor cooler, and an innovative board layout which accommodates the special need of the Gigabit Ethernet for access to its optical/ZIP drive PATA channel. The Giga-Designs processors were also designed for easy changes from a 100 MHz bus machine to a 133 MHz bus machine. I don't know if Encore offers this same flexibility. 2. What do I gain by this swap? I mean, the DA is a bit newer and faster, but is it worth it, or should I just switch to the Gigabit? - I have already tried the DA's video card in the Gigabit and it works OK; does it make a big difference that the DA is AGPx4 and the Gigabit AGPx2? - The RAM in both computers is PC-133 - Does the slower ATA bus speed of the Gigabit make a big difference in actual practice? It can make a difference, but that difference is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 150 minutes to do a complex DVD authoring/mastering job on a Gigabit Ethernet (100 MHz bus, an slower ATA channel) to 120 minutes to do the same job on a Digital Audio or a Quicksilver (133 MHz bus and faster ATA channel). In stark contrast, a Shuttle SP35 OSx86 Hackintosh can do that same DVD authoring/mastering job in 12 minutes ... a 10-to-1 improvement in wall-cock-time, which is certainly one important measure of performance. I still retain 133 MHz bus G4s for ordinary work (such as web access and Mail.app access, for which a 133 MHz bus and a dual 1.0 GHz G4 processor is certainly satisfactory). All the heavy lifting in my shop is now run on OSx86 Hackintoshes with, variously, 800 MHz to 1600 MHz buses and dual or quad Intel processors in the very high 2 MHz to low 3 MHz range (Pentium Dual-Core E6700 3.2 GHz, but over-clockable to 3.8 GHz to Core 2 Quad Q9550 2.83 GHz, but over-clockable to 3.4 GHz; however, I rarely operate my processors over-clocked, preferring reliability over excessive stress on the various components). -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?
On 8/6/2010 3:14 PM, Daniel Stewart wrote: I can't agree with that. A P4 is the definition of hype verses performance. My G4 933 mhz Quicksilver is more responsive then a P4 at twice the clock speed and the ram is PC133 on my QS and it is still the better machine. P4s were not even that great with windows. Plus a P4 is basically a space heater in a computer case. Agreed, I just replaced a 1.8 GHz P4 with a dual 933 P3 system. The P3 outperforms it lol. -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
Re: will DA processor fit in Gigabit?
On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 10:27 PM, Jason Brown jason_brown1...@att.netwrote: On 8/6/2010 3:14 PM, Daniel Stewart wrote: I can't agree with that. A P4 is the definition of hype verses performance. My G4 933 mhz Quicksilver is more responsive then a P4 at twice the clock speed and the ram is PC133 on my QS and it is still the better machine. P4s were not even that great with windows. Plus a P4 is basically a space heater in a computer case. Agreed, I just replaced a 1.8 GHz P4 with a dual 933 P3 system. The P3 outperforms it lol. -- ___ Not unique, As testified to by the PCI Macs archive many found certain G3 setups outperforming G4s. A source of wonder and bemusement on that list for years -- Adrian D'Alessio aka; Fluxstringer fluxstrin...@gmail.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/fluxstreamcommunication/ http://www.youtube.com/fluxstringer http://www.facebook.com/FluxStringer http://www.linkedin.com/in/fluxstreamcommunications http://flux-influx.blogspot.com/ http://fluxdreams.designbinder.com/ -- You received this message because you are a member of G-Group, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list
