Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
just putting in something i forgot. a lot of games in mainstream you pay for have free or payed for downloadable content. in some cases the game iteself is free but extra stuff would be payed for. At 06:58 AM 4/20/2013, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Well, that idea might work for some games, but not others. What I mean by that depending on how the game is designed it might not be able to be broken up into modules or separate components like that. For example, take the game Shades of Doom. You couldn't break that game up into separate modules because its a linier design from Area 1 to Area 9. You can't just write the first four or five levels, sell that as a starter game, and then sell levels 6 through 9 as an add-on pack. Since the game would be incomplete without the extra levels. That would be ethically questionable. However, the way ESP Pinball Extreme is designed its perfect for what you suggest. You buy the basic game with a starter set of tables and then can buy any number of expansion sets of tables that you want. Its the type of game you can do that sort of thing with and no one will have reason to complain since the starter game is a complete game in itself. The expansion pack is just that. An addition to the game you don't have to have. Still, the concept of designing more games with the ability to have expansion packs is a good one. It would help audio game developers raise money for their companies, and not be quite as time consuming as writing new games from scratch. A small $5 or $10 expansion pack for a game now and then would be a relatively inexpensive way to keep new game content coming while not taking that long to complete. For instance, I recall all of the original Tomb Raider games for the PC has expansion packs that essentially adds little mini games to the full game. You would have the original 15 levels, and then a mini game that you could buy and play for a fraction of the cost of the full game. Something like that model could be done in audio games, and a game like Judgment Day is a prime example of that in action. When you buy Judgment Day you of course get the game itself, but you get a few mini games as well as some extra scenes. I don't see why something like that game couldn't be expanded with a few more mini games and extra content here and there if a developer wanted to take that route. The mini games wouldn't have to be very expensive say $5.00 each or perhaps three for $15.00. Either way it would expand an existing game and not be expensive to obtain the new content. Cheers! On 4/18/13, shaun everiss wrote: > Well I'd be happy to pay a lot for a large game, one idea I had, > instead of paying say 100 bucks for a game have the game selling for > 20-30 bucks maybe even 15 bucks. > Don't develop the full game, just do it in bits, you buy 1 bit, and > slowly buy more and more launching bits as you go. > Or you could keep the price low and make the player have to find more > bits to play somehow. > I remember games in the old dos days, you brought a simple game > with the game in it. > you could then buy the full game or play the simple game and hunt for > it every time you finnished a section you had to hunt for the next one, > etc. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
true my idea was to have a game which would cost a small ammount, the next section would cost the same. each section say an adventure would end on a cliff hanger of sorts or something, so you would buy it in bits. my thought was that every piece you had would load the next so once you have finnished 1 piece you got the next piece. For starters, you would always get the first piece free, as a enticer and the next pieces would be payed with a small ammount, something like 10 bucks or even 5 bucks eventually you could get a completed story for 30 bucks or buy it as you went. yeah some games are not designed that way but oh well. At 06:58 AM 4/20/2013, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Well, that idea might work for some games, but not others. What I mean by that depending on how the game is designed it might not be able to be broken up into modules or separate components like that. For example, take the game Shades of Doom. You couldn't break that game up into separate modules because its a linier design from Area 1 to Area 9. You can't just write the first four or five levels, sell that as a starter game, and then sell levels 6 through 9 as an add-on pack. Since the game would be incomplete without the extra levels. That would be ethically questionable. However, the way ESP Pinball Extreme is designed its perfect for what you suggest. You buy the basic game with a starter set of tables and then can buy any number of expansion sets of tables that you want. Its the type of game you can do that sort of thing with and no one will have reason to complain since the starter game is a complete game in itself. The expansion pack is just that. An addition to the game you don't have to have. Still, the concept of designing more games with the ability to have expansion packs is a good one. It would help audio game developers raise money for their companies, and not be quite as time consuming as writing new games from scratch. A small $5 or $10 expansion pack for a game now and then would be a relatively inexpensive way to keep new game content coming while not taking that long to complete. For instance, I recall all of the original Tomb Raider games for the PC has expansion packs that essentially adds little mini games to the full game. You would have the original 15 levels, and then a mini game that you could buy and play for a fraction of the cost of the full game. Something like that model could be done in audio games, and a game like Judgment Day is a prime example of that in action. When you buy Judgment Day you of course get the game itself, but you get a few mini games as well as some extra scenes. I don't see why something like that game couldn't be expanded with a few more mini games and extra content here and there if a developer wanted to take that route. The mini games wouldn't have to be very expensive say $5.00 each or perhaps three for $15.00. Either way it would expand an existing game and not be expensive to obtain the new content. Cheers! On 4/18/13, shaun everiss wrote: > Well I'd be happy to pay a lot for a large game, one idea I had, > instead of paying say 100 bucks for a game have the game selling for > 20-30 bucks maybe even 15 bucks. > Don't develop the full game, just do it in bits, you buy 1 bit, and > slowly buy more and more launching bits as you go. > Or you could keep the price low and make the player have to find more > bits to play somehow. > I remember games in the old dos days, you brought a simple game > with the game in it. > you could then buy the full game or play the simple game and hunt for > it every time you finnished a section you had to hunt for the next one, > etc. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Shaun, Well, that idea might work for some games, but not others. What I mean by that depending on how the game is designed it might not be able to be broken up into modules or separate components like that. For example, take the game Shades of Doom. You couldn't break that game up into separate modules because its a linier design from Area 1 to Area 9. You can't just write the first four or five levels, sell that as a starter game, and then sell levels 6 through 9 as an add-on pack. Since the game would be incomplete without the extra levels. That would be ethically questionable. However, the way ESP Pinball Extreme is designed its perfect for what you suggest. You buy the basic game with a starter set of tables and then can buy any number of expansion sets of tables that you want. Its the type of game you can do that sort of thing with and no one will have reason to complain since the starter game is a complete game in itself. The expansion pack is just that. An addition to the game you don't have to have. Still, the concept of designing more games with the ability to have expansion packs is a good one. It would help audio game developers raise money for their companies, and not be quite as time consuming as writing new games from scratch. A small $5 or $10 expansion pack for a game now and then would be a relatively inexpensive way to keep new game content coming while not taking that long to complete. For instance, I recall all of the original Tomb Raider games for the PC has expansion packs that essentially adds little mini games to the full game. You would have the original 15 levels, and then a mini game that you could buy and play for a fraction of the cost of the full game. Something like that model could be done in audio games, and a game like Judgment Day is a prime example of that in action. When you buy Judgment Day you of course get the game itself, but you get a few mini games as well as some extra scenes. I don't see why something like that game couldn't be expanded with a few more mini games and extra content here and there if a developer wanted to take that route. The mini games wouldn't have to be very expensive say $5.00 each or perhaps three for $15.00. Either way it would expand an existing game and not be expensive to obtain the new content. Cheers! On 4/18/13, shaun everiss wrote: > Well I'd be happy to pay a lot for a large game, one idea I had, > instead of paying say 100 bucks for a game have the game selling for > 20-30 bucks maybe even 15 bucks. > Don't develop the full game, just do it in bits, you buy 1 bit, and > slowly buy more and more launching bits as you go. > Or you could keep the price low and make the player have to find more > bits to play somehow. > I remember games in the old dos days, you brought a simple game > with the game in it. > you could then buy the full game or play the simple game and hunt for > it every time you finnished a section you had to hunt for the next one, > etc. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Well I'd be happy to pay a lot for a large game, one idea I had, instead of paying say 100 bucks for a game have the game selling for 20-30 bucks maybe even 15 bucks. Don't develop the full game, just do it in bits, you buy 1 bit, and slowly buy more and more launching bits as you go. Or you could keep the price low and make the player have to find more bits to play somehow. I remember games in the old dos days, you brought a simple game with the game in it. you could then buy the full game or play the simple game and hunt for it every time you finnished a section you had to hunt for the next one, etc. At 03:17 PM 4/18/2013, you wrote: Hi Dark, Sure. I think it is the additional complexity and exploration aspect I was looking for as well. Chess, Uno, Hearts, Battleship, etc are good games in and of themselves, but it didn't provide me with the exploration and treasure hunting experience something like Tomb Raider provided. Like Shades of Doom the levels were basically very large mazes that I could wander around, avoiding traps, and fighting monsters while hunting for special items. I thrived on that kind of adventure, the exploration, and until Shades of Doom came out there wasn't anything like that for the blind. In the early days there were lots of card and board games, but no adventure and exploration games outside of interactive fiction. Since I was an adventure junky card and board games just couldn't provide me the same experience. :D Cheers ! On 4/17/13, dark wrote: > Hi tom. > > well I wasn't in the same position as yourself in wanting the latest and > best thing, since for years I'd always had my choices been limited, indeed > for me playing games like Sryth and legend of the green dragon in text > (which i did long before I discovered audio games), was largely my first and > > very welcome experience of rpgs. > > what I've always loved in games is exploration and discovery, and while I > was quite happy finding that in text adventures and brouser mmorpgs, it > wasn't something that occurred to me when looking at the original games to > play offline list over at whiestick back in about 2004. i admit I didn't > check out many of the games in detail, but was concerned that many seemed to > > be things like chess, cards etc, which i didn't really see the point of > playing on a computer since they wouldn't give the same experience. > > I wouldn't say playing audio games changed my priorities, indeed when I am > in a serious gaming mood I still play games like shades of doom, lone wolf > or some of my low vision accessible ones like Turrican or mega man, however > > I did realize there was such a thing as different forms of games for > different periods of time and different feelings, which is really something > > i largely missed, since even with marrio or mega man I'd generally sit down > > and evote serious attention, and while occasionally i'd play something like > > tetris while reading a book on tape, this would be less frequent and > generally i'd prefer something like Tetris. > > Even now, while I will gladly play alternative games depending upon what I'm > > doing, i generally want something a bit more complex with challenge > atmosphere and exploration when i'm in the frame of mind to play a serious > game and discover new things. > > fortunately audio games exist to suit man y different moods now, albeit I'd > > love to see a few more with full exploration like shades. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Dark, Sure. I think it is the additional complexity and exploration aspect I was looking for as well. Chess, Uno, Hearts, Battleship, etc are good games in and of themselves, but it didn't provide me with the exploration and treasure hunting experience something like Tomb Raider provided. Like Shades of Doom the levels were basically very large mazes that I could wander around, avoiding traps, and fighting monsters while hunting for special items. I thrived on that kind of adventure, the exploration, and until Shades of Doom came out there wasn't anything like that for the blind. In the early days there were lots of card and board games, but no adventure and exploration games outside of interactive fiction. Since I was an adventure junky card and board games just couldn't provide me the same experience. :D Cheers ! On 4/17/13, dark wrote: > Hi tom. > > well I wasn't in the same position as yourself in wanting the latest and > best thing, since for years I'd always had my choices been limited, indeed > for me playing games like Sryth and legend of the green dragon in text > (which i did long before I discovered audio games), was largely my first and > > very welcome experience of rpgs. > > what I've always loved in games is exploration and discovery, and while I > was quite happy finding that in text adventures and brouser mmorpgs, it > wasn't something that occurred to me when looking at the original games to > play offline list over at whiestick back in about 2004. i admit I didn't > check out many of the games in detail, but was concerned that many seemed to > > be things like chess, cards etc, which i didn't really see the point of > playing on a computer since they wouldn't give the same experience. > > I wouldn't say playing audio games changed my priorities, indeed when I am > in a serious gaming mood I still play games like shades of doom, lone wolf > or some of my low vision accessible ones like Turrican or mega man, however > > I did realize there was such a thing as different forms of games for > different periods of time and different feelings, which is really something > > i largely missed, since even with marrio or mega man I'd generally sit down > > and evote serious attention, and while occasionally i'd play something like > > tetris while reading a book on tape, this would be less frequent and > generally i'd prefer something like Tetris. > > Even now, while I will gladly play alternative games depending upon what I'm > > doing, i generally want something a bit more complex with challenge > atmosphere and exploration when i'm in the frame of mind to play a serious > game and discover new things. > > fortunately audio games exist to suit man y different moods now, albeit I'd > > love to see a few more with full exploration like shades. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Jim, Well, I'll grant you that one. Weather developed through the GMA Engine or written in Visual Basic 6 the dependencies are the same so it really comes down to the same thing in the end. Cheers! On 4/17/13, Jim Kitchen wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > True Phil did not need to learn to program in VB6 to use David's game > engine, but when the games are compiled they need all of the VB6 > dependances, thus I would say that they are games written in VB6. > > Have a good one. > > BFN > > Jim > > I am using BASIC, because I don't want to be C-sick. > > j...@kitchensinc.net > http://www.kitchensinc.net > (440) 286-6920 > Chardon Ohio USA > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Thomas, True Phil did not need to learn to program in VB6 to use David's game engine, but when the games are compiled they need all of the VB6 dependances, thus I would say that they are games written in VB6. Have a good one. BFN Jim I am using BASIC, because I don't want to be C-sick. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi tom. well I wasn't in the same position as yourself in wanting the latest and best thing, since for years I'd always had my choices been limited, indeed for me playing games like Sryth and legend of the green dragon in text (which i did long before I discovered audio games), was largely my first and very welcome experience of rpgs. what I've always loved in games is exploration and discovery, and while I was quite happy finding that in text adventures and brouser mmorpgs, it wasn't something that occurred to me when looking at the original games to play offline list over at whiestick back in about 2004. i admit I didn't check out many of the games in detail, but was concerned that many seemed to be things like chess, cards etc, which i didn't really see the point of playing on a computer since they wouldn't give the same experience. I wouldn't say playing audio games changed my priorities, indeed when I am in a serious gaming mood I still play games like shades of doom, lone wolf or some of my low vision accessible ones like Turrican or mega man, however I did realize there was such a thing as different forms of games for different periods of time and different feelings, which is really something i largely missed, since even with marrio or mega man I'd generally sit down and evote serious attention, and while occasionally i'd play something like tetris while reading a book on tape, this would be less frequent and generally i'd prefer something like Tetris. Even now, while I will gladly play alternative games depending upon what I'm doing, i generally want something a bit more complex with challenge atmosphere and exploration when i'm in the frame of mind to play a serious game and discover new things. fortunately audio games exist to suit man y different moods now, albeit I'd love to see a few more with full exploration like shades. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
I was also referd by a blind friend who was your friend thomas paul nimmo brought me over here. I aam glad now he did. Lisa Hayes www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 11:44 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games. Hi Dark, I know exactly where you are coming from. I first came to Audyssey after being referred by a blind friend, and it just so happens one of the first games I tried was Lone Wolf which was a fairly advanced game for audio games at the time. Shades of Doom came out about a year later and it reinforced the idea that audio games were not all simple text adventures or card and board games. I realized that audio games could be much more. If I hadn't had that experience I might have tried to stick with the mainstream games I was playing because there would have been nothing comparable in audio games at the time. It isn't that Jim Kitchen, Robert Betz, PCs Games, etc were developing bad games, but they were not the kind of games I was use to. I had been use to playing Tomb Raider, Jedi Knight, Quake, Doom, Mech Warrior, and so on. In other words I was use to first-person shooters, third-person shooters, and action simulations when the blind community were still largely playing games like Uno and Hearts. There is no comparison and the disappointment I felt was a major let down. Then, a friend showed me a game he had gotten from GMA called Lone Wolf. That restored the faith in me that audio games didn't have to be card, board, and puzzle games. I looked at Lone Wolf and could see it was sort of like Aces of the Deep, and even if it wasn't as good as Aces of the Deep it was good enough to play and I liked it. A year or so later Shades of Doom came out, and I liked it right away. It wasn't exactly like Doom, the same way Lone Wolf wasn't exactly like Aces of the Deep, but was close enough to be comparable and just as fun. To this day Shades of Doom is among my top five audio games. It is and remains a part of my fave five as is Lone Wolf. Now, over the years I have become more accepting of basic card and board games such as those by Jim Kitchen and Ian, because they are still good games even though they aren't fast paced side-scrollers and first-person shooters. It took me a while to get out of the mainstream mindset that I had to have the latest and greatest action games for the PC available. Part of that was simply getting out of the teenage and young adult gaming scene and being blind meant I took a different gaming path than most of my high school friends and college mates. However, during that transition it really helped to have a couple of games that were comparable to what I had been playing to help me discover audio games in the first place. Otherwise if there only had been card and board games I doubt I would have stayed with Audyssey and be here moderating the list now just because I was looking for something like Shades of Doom when starting out. :D On 4/17/13, dark wrote: Hi tom. shades is indeed a good example, indeed from my perspective of mostly playing low vision accessible mainstream games like megaman, turrican etc, had shades not been of a comparable design standard I'd not likely have played too many more. I in fact found! the page of games to play offline on the whitestick site back in 2004 or so when i was trying out interactive fiction games, brouser games like Sryth and the like, but none of the games listed there interested me indeed I do confess that as I have something of a prejudice of blind people and the often condescending attitude of various organizations, I didn't particularly take to the idea until Bryan P mentioned shades to me on the sryth forums and I tried it. Had my fi9rst audio game experience been something simpler or less well designed rather than something of that quality I'd have not likely had such a good opinion of the hole field, and stuck to my low vision accessible games which would've been a shame. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at ht
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Dark, I know exactly where you are coming from. I first came to Audyssey after being referred by a blind friend, and it just so happens one of the first games I tried was Lone Wolf which was a fairly advanced game for audio games at the time. Shades of Doom came out about a year later and it reinforced the idea that audio games were not all simple text adventures or card and board games. I realized that audio games could be much more. If I hadn't had that experience I might have tried to stick with the mainstream games I was playing because there would have been nothing comparable in audio games at the time. It isn't that Jim Kitchen, Robert Betz, PCs Games, etc were developing bad games, but they were not the kind of games I was use to. I had been use to playing Tomb Raider, Jedi Knight, Quake, Doom, Mech Warrior, and so on. In other words I was use to first-person shooters, third-person shooters, and action simulations when the blind community were still largely playing games like Uno and Hearts. There is no comparison and the disappointment I felt was a major let down. Then, a friend showed me a game he had gotten from GMA called Lone Wolf. That restored the faith in me that audio games didn't have to be card, board, and puzzle games. I looked at Lone Wolf and could see it was sort of like Aces of the Deep, and even if it wasn't as good as Aces of the Deep it was good enough to play and I liked it. A year or so later Shades of Doom came out, and I liked it right away. It wasn't exactly like Doom, the same way Lone Wolf wasn't exactly like Aces of the Deep, but was close enough to be comparable and just as fun. To this day Shades of Doom is among my top five audio games. It is and remains a part of my fave five as is Lone Wolf. Now, over the years I have become more accepting of basic card and board games such as those by Jim Kitchen and Ian, because they are still good games even though they aren't fast paced side-scrollers and first-person shooters. It took me a while to get out of the mainstream mindset that I had to have the latest and greatest action games for the PC available. Part of that was simply getting out of the teenage and young adult gaming scene and being blind meant I took a different gaming path than most of my high school friends and college mates. However, during that transition it really helped to have a couple of games that were comparable to what I had been playing to help me discover audio games in the first place. Otherwise if there only had been card and board games I doubt I would have stayed with Audyssey and be here moderating the list now just because I was looking for something like Shades of Doom when starting out. :D On 4/17/13, dark wrote: > Hi tom. > > shades is indeed a good example, indeed from my perspective of mostly > playing low vision accessible mainstream games like megaman, turrican etc, > had shades not been of a comparable design standard I'd not likely have > played too many more. I in fact found! the page of games to play offline on > > the whitestick site back in 2004 or so when i was trying out interactive > fiction games, brouser games like Sryth and the like, but none of the games > > listed there interested me indeed I do confess that as I have something of a > > prejudice of blind people and the often condescending attitude of various > organizations, I didn't particularly take to the idea until Bryan P > mentioned shades to me on the sryth forums and I tried it. > > Had my fi9rst audio game experience been something simpler or less well > designed rather than something of that quality I'd have not likely had such > > a good opinion of the hole field, and stuck to my low vision accessible > games which would've been a shame. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi tom. shades is indeed a good example, indeed from my perspective of mostly playing low vision accessible mainstream games like megaman, turrican etc, had shades not been of a comparable design standard I'd not likely have played too many more. I in fact found! the page of games to play offline on the whitestick site back in 2004 or so when i was trying out interactive fiction games, brouser games like Sryth and the like, but none of the games listed there interested me indeed I do confess that as I have something of a prejudice of blind people and the often condescending attitude of various organizations, I didn't particularly take to the idea until Bryan P mentioned shades to me on the sryth forums and I tried it. Had my fi9rst audio game experience been something simpler or less well designed rather than something of that quality I'd have not likely had such a good opinion of the hole field, and stuck to my low vision accessible games which would've been a shame. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Dark, I know exactly what you mean. It isn't so easy to quantify that special something that makes you come back to a game again and again no matter how many times you played it, but you sure know it when you encounter it. I think it is hard to get that quality of game, because its not an exact formula. It just happens to be a well designed game that has a lot of fun and replay value. Since we both like Shades of Doom that seems to me to be the logical place to discuss this issue of undefinable quality and replay value. To be honest I don't know that David Greenwood intentionally set out to make the game that addictive or it just happened to turn out that way, but it has a lot going for it. For one thing the sound effects are not fantastic, but are decent. The game has very good navigation aids which makes it possible to get around in an FPS environment with a little practice. Each level was designed as a maze which serves as a puzzle element so that new gamers won't finish it in one or two games. It took me at least a month to figure out where I was going which made it challenging as well as addictive. There are hidden rewards such as the ammo in the toilet on the second floor and the mesh armor behind the crack in the wall on level 4. Having hidden rewards like that really adds a bit to the initial replay value of the game. However, the thing I like most about the game is that super battle at the end where there are monsters all over level 9 and then I have to take on the Boss who is one tough son of a gun to beat. I get such an adrenaline rush playing that level I do it pretty frequently. So what makes it such a good game? I'm not sure but it is a combination of many good elements like random placement of items, decent quality sounds, plenty of hidden items, and a gradual increase from fairly easy monsters to that battle to end all battles on level 9. I would say most good games fits this formula pretty closely and are popular for that reason. I know the original Megaman slowly increased in difficulty and one of the things that made that game tough was in the final level you had to fight all the bosses at once which was certainly interesting to say the least. I'd play the entire game through just for that final battle sometimes because it was that fun. Cheers! On 4/16/13, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > One crytical aspect i have noticed with games such as prince of persia, > Turrican, mega man etc is replay value, and I don't just mean in terms of > how much content a game has. > > There are several games that i have played and replayed many times, yet > still find myself returning to them over and again, even when I know every > single aspect of them intimately. Super Metroid is a primary example. i've > finished the game with every single item, yet still! I find myself returning > > to run it again, and finding I still get satisfaction from the enemy > placement, the puzzles, the design, even the basic atmosphere. > > The Metroid games on the gba however, fusion and zero mission I've perhaps > played through twice, since while they are fun, they just don't have that > element of surprise and really clean design that made super what it was, > indeed zero mission, which i really enjoyed back when i first played it in > 2005, I find doubly disappointing now since very little new was added to the > > game at all compared to what I'd previously seen. > > I'm told, with the first person prime series this has gotten even worse, > indeed I have a friend who hates the prime games with a passion, despite > being a huge fan of Super metroid. > > It's not however just! classics of the 90's that have this sort of quality > though. As you said in another reply, I've replayed shades and gma tank > commander more than several times, not to mention pipe 2, since the elements > > in those games, even in an arccade style game like pipe 2 were just so well > > worked out. > > It's this aspect that makes me want to come back and run through a game > again, even if I've finished it before. it's hard to say what this element > of design actually is, but certainly good planning, real judgement, and > challenging the player with more than just hear and react challenges all > come in to it. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audy
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Jim, Yes, you are right. David Greenwood does still use VB 6. Although Phil used the GMA engine to write Pac-Man Talks and Sarah those games wasn't written directly in VB 6 but used the GMA Engine to create the games which means he didn't really use VB 6 directly. It just happened to be the language the GMA Engine was written with. As far as Ken goes I'm not really sure what he is using now days. I thought he was looking into BGT last time I heard. In any case the number of blind developers still using VB 6 is slowly growing smaller now that BGT is out there, and I know of at least three developers using C# .NET. Cheers! On 4/16/13, Jim Kitchen wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > Besides me and Aprone, I thought that David Greenwood's games also were > written in VB6. Which would also mean that Phil's games that use his engine > were also. And I also thought that Ken was still writing in VB6. But for > awhile now, anyone that has asked, I have recommended that they take a look > at BGT if they want to try to get into game programming. > > BFN > > Jim > > I like Visual Basic 6.0 because I can not C. > > j...@kitchensinc.net > http://www.kitchensinc.net > (440) 286-6920 > Chardon Ohio USA > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Thomas, Besides me and Aprone, I thought that David Greenwood's games also were written in VB6. Which would also mean that Phil's games that use his engine were also. And I also thought that Ken was still writing in VB6. But for awhile now, anyone that has asked, I have recommended that they take a look at BGT if they want to try to get into game programming. BFN Jim I like Visual Basic 6.0 because I can not C. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
well I firmly think that once win8 is used by more blind and the kinks are ironed out or even if 9 is the system or even 10 that touch will eventually need to become part of the blind gaming industry as a whole. its the next logical step and while the standard devices are ok its probably where its at. I have not tried swamp on a track pad but my next system will have a propper touch tablet and sertainly I will try again and see. At 01:30 AM 4/17/2013, you wrote: Hi Jim, Besides you and Aprone I don't really know anyone who uses visual Basic 6 since it is 14 or 15 years old, and isn't really up to spec for newer 64-bit versions of Windows etc. However, I could see someone converting that code to Visual Basic .NET 2010 which would be far more up to date, and could possibly work with the latest Mono Framework for Mac and Linux. Other code libraries could be Python, C++, or C# .NET as well as BGT. Either way I do think some public code that could be copied into a starter project would be a good idea. We just need to figure out which language or languages would be the most benefit to the community. Cheers! On 4/16/13, Jim Kitchen wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > Yeah, I have two starter .frm files. One has DirectX keyboard and joystick > input and the other has just VB6 keyboard input. VB6 keyboard input is all > that is needed in games like Press Your Luck. But both .frm files have many > functions that I use in all games such as say, play, delay, adjust voice and > input for things like player names etc. And then like you I also copy, > paste and modify bits of code in from other games that I have written. It > would be cool if there was a depository for bits of code like that for BGT. > One for VB6 too, but who uses VB6 anymore? > > BFN > > Jim > > Might as well face it, you're addicted to code... > > j...@kitchensinc.net > http://www.kitchensinc.net > (440) 286-6920 > Chardon Ohio USA > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
aggreed jim kitchens games and gma's games while being 2 of the oldest companies in the industry even with their games being as they are still appeal to me as a player. last crusade with its limited randomized number generation is just enough to keep me playing from time to time even legacy is good from time to time. and the clients for qc and rs sertainly. At 01:17 AM 4/17/2013, you wrote: Hi Dark, Yes, simplicity and a good over all game design was really one of the factors that made some of those classic Atari games classics. Its easy to see which games were well thought out, designed well, as they have stood the test of time. Games like Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, Centipede, and Asteroids have been played by fans clear up until today and have been included in a number of arcade packs. Others like the E.T. game were such abysmal failures you have to wonder if the programmers were smoking dope or were so interested in selling the game based on the success of the movie that they forgot to give the game a halfway decent design. That's why millions of E.T. games went to the city dump, because the developers poorly designed that game and nobody liked it. However, simplicity and quality need not be mutually exclusive. The original Montezuma's Revenge by Parker Brothers was a great example of this. It took a simple idea, it was suppose to be a clone of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, but had its own character and deadly enemies. You jumped over skulls, snakes, and spiders, ran through electric walls, leaped over fire pits, jumped onto vanishing platforms, and a number of other traps that would begin showing up elsewhere such as Megaman. There were only like 11 levels all told, but I played that game constantly because it was hard to put down. Yet was simple, and it was also high quality for the $40 we paid for that game. Cheers! On 4/16/13, dark wrote: > Hi Bryan. > > simplicity of a basic game idea combined with the good design aspects was > often what made those old atari 2600 games so engaging. One great example of > > this in audio are the games created by Lworks, the arcade titles such as > Great toy robbery, lockpick and original egghunt. Another might be Gmas > recent lander game, which, while extremely simple has a complex enough set > of mechanics and design to present a real and distinct challenge just as > those old atari 2600 games did, since a player has to fully learn and get to > > grips with the basic physics and interactions of the game objects, rather > than just instantly having everything their own way. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Tom. One crytical aspect i have noticed with games such as prince of persia, Turrican, mega man etc is replay value, and I don't just mean in terms of how much content a game has. There are several games that i have played and replayed many times, yet still find myself returning to them over and again, even when I know every single aspect of them intimately. Super Metroid is a primary example. i've finished the game with every single item, yet still! I find myself returning to run it again, and finding I still get satisfaction from the enemy placement, the puzzles, the design, even the basic atmosphere. The Metroid games on the gba however, fusion and zero mission I've perhaps played through twice, since while they are fun, they just don't have that element of surprise and really clean design that made super what it was, indeed zero mission, which i really enjoyed back when i first played it in 2005, I find doubly disappointing now since very little new was added to the game at all compared to what I'd previously seen. I'm told, with the first person prime series this has gotten even worse, indeed I have a friend who hates the prime games with a passion, despite being a huge fan of Super metroid. It's not however just! classics of the 90's that have this sort of quality though. As you said in another reply, I've replayed shades and gma tank commander more than several times, not to mention pipe 2, since the elements in those games, even in an arccade style game like pipe 2 were just so well worked out. It's this aspect that makes me want to come back and run through a game again, even if I've finished it before. it's hard to say what this element of design actually is, but certainly good planning, real judgement, and challenging the player with more than just hear and react challenges all come in to it. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Dark, Yes, ultimately it is the design that counts the most. I haven't played any of the Turrican games myself, but the fact that it is still going strong, has a following after all these years, proves the design is one that was good. The early Prince of Persia games are another example of a game that was very good, and people still play the Dos versions because newer games even in that series aren't as good as the original games in the series. The problem is game designers are focusing all ore most of their efforts on high quality graphics and sounds, and have ignored the good design principles that made Turrican Turrican or Prince of Persia Prince of Persia and the quality has suffered for it. As much as I appreciate good sounds and graphics that can't make up for a poor design no matter what quality the graphics and sounds are. Cheers! On 4/16/13, dark wrote: > Hi Tom. > > I can't speak about original monti, as until i saw your version and played > that old retro remakes one with the original graphics I never played the > original, however I am very familiar with mega man and turrican as you > know. > > original Turrican 2 was the game that really! stands out for me. it had such > > a simple concept, man with gun in giant maze level finds exit surrounded by > > many enemies picking up weapon powers, yet it is one of the finest games > I've ever played and I can still get fun out of the original today even > though i know the levels backwards, --- heck the same goes for super > metroid, mega man x, original marrio brothers or even a walk along beatemup > > such as golden axe. > > I know many people over on the turrican remake boards that actually say they > > prefer! playing the new turrican levels to paying large amounts for what big > > companies churn out nexxt, for reason of the fact that good design has been > > replaced largely by visual appeal, indeed this doesn't just hold for > games (I could talk about the current series of Doctor who in very much the > > same terms). > > Utliamtely though it's the design that counts. > > Beware the Grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Then you have the Lunar games for Playstation. They were originally released for the Sega Saturn and Sega CD, then ported to the PS1. Those were some very well-designed games in my opinion. I wasn't impressed so much with the audio in the Sega versions since those systems' sound chips weren't the greatest. But the PS versions featured some incredible music and they fleshed out the story quite a bit, particularly in the first game. And the voice acting, although some may disagree, was great. I even liked the fact that after you beat the games you could listen to some outtakes from the voice recording sessions. You don't see that much if at all in most mainstream games and even in audio games. I'm hoping that whenever Airik the Cleric 2 finally comes out Jake will include the option of listening to bloopers after you beat the game. But thou must! -Original Message- From: Thomas Ward Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 9:45 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games. Hi Dark, Yes, ultimately it is the design that counts the most. I haven't played any of the Turrican games myself, but the fact that it is still going strong, has a following after all these years, proves the design is one that was good. The early Prince of Persia games are another example of a game that was very good, and people still play the Dos versions because newer games even in that series aren't as good as the original games in the series. The problem is game designers are focusing all ore most of their efforts on high quality graphics and sounds, and have ignored the good design principles that made Turrican Turrican or Prince of Persia Prince of Persia and the quality has suffered for it. As much as I appreciate good sounds and graphics that can't make up for a poor design no matter what quality the graphics and sounds are. Cheers! On 4/16/13, dark wrote: Hi Tom. I can't speak about original monti, as until i saw your version and played that old retro remakes one with the original graphics I never played the original, however I am very familiar with mega man and turrican as you know. original Turrican 2 was the game that really! stands out for me. it had such a simple concept, man with gun in giant maze level finds exit surrounded by many enemies picking up weapon powers, yet it is one of the finest games I've ever played and I can still get fun out of the original today even though i know the levels backwards, --- heck the same goes for super metroid, mega man x, original marrio brothers or even a walk along beatemup such as golden axe. I know many people over on the turrican remake boards that actually say they prefer! playing the new turrican levels to paying large amounts for what big companies churn out nexxt, for reason of the fact that good design has been replaced largely by visual appeal, indeed this doesn't just hold for games (I could talk about the current series of Doctor who in very much the same terms). Utliamtely though it's the design that counts. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Tom. I can't speak about original monti, as until i saw your version and played that old retro remakes one with the original graphics I never played the original, however I am very familiar with mega man and turrican as you know. original Turrican 2 was the game that really! stands out for me. it had such a simple concept, man with gun in giant maze level finds exit surrounded by many enemies picking up weapon powers, yet it is one of the finest games I've ever played and I can still get fun out of the original today even though i know the levels backwards, --- heck the same goes for super metroid, mega man x, original marrio brothers or even a walk along beatemup such as golden axe. I know many people over on the turrican remake boards that actually say they prefer! playing the new turrican levels to paying large amounts for what big companies churn out nexxt, for reason of the fact that good design has been replaced largely by visual appeal, indeed this doesn't just hold for games (I could talk about the current series of Doctor who in very much the same terms). Utliamtely though it's the design that counts. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Jim, Besides you and Aprone I don't really know anyone who uses visual Basic 6 since it is 14 or 15 years old, and isn't really up to spec for newer 64-bit versions of Windows etc. However, I could see someone converting that code to Visual Basic .NET 2010 which would be far more up to date, and could possibly work with the latest Mono Framework for Mac and Linux. Other code libraries could be Python, C++, or C# .NET as well as BGT. Either way I do think some public code that could be copied into a starter project would be a good idea. We just need to figure out which language or languages would be the most benefit to the community. Cheers! On 4/16/13, Jim Kitchen wrote: > Hi Thomas, > > Yeah, I have two starter .frm files. One has DirectX keyboard and joystick > input and the other has just VB6 keyboard input. VB6 keyboard input is all > that is needed in games like Press Your Luck. But both .frm files have many > functions that I use in all games such as say, play, delay, adjust voice and > input for things like player names etc. And then like you I also copy, > paste and modify bits of code in from other games that I have written. It > would be cool if there was a depository for bits of code like that for BGT. > One for VB6 too, but who uses VB6 anymore? > > BFN > > Jim > > Might as well face it, you're addicted to code... > > j...@kitchensinc.net > http://www.kitchensinc.net > (440) 286-6920 > Chardon Ohio USA > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Dark, Yes, simplicity and a good over all game design was really one of the factors that made some of those classic Atari games classics. Its easy to see which games were well thought out, designed well, as they have stood the test of time. Games like Pac-Man, Donkey Kong, Centipede, and Asteroids have been played by fans clear up until today and have been included in a number of arcade packs. Others like the E.T. game were such abysmal failures you have to wonder if the programmers were smoking dope or were so interested in selling the game based on the success of the movie that they forgot to give the game a halfway decent design. That's why millions of E.T. games went to the city dump, because the developers poorly designed that game and nobody liked it. However, simplicity and quality need not be mutually exclusive. The original Montezuma's Revenge by Parker Brothers was a great example of this. It took a simple idea, it was suppose to be a clone of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, but had its own character and deadly enemies. You jumped over skulls, snakes, and spiders, ran through electric walls, leaped over fire pits, jumped onto vanishing platforms, and a number of other traps that would begin showing up elsewhere such as Megaman. There were only like 11 levels all told, but I played that game constantly because it was hard to put down. Yet was simple, and it was also high quality for the $40 we paid for that game. Cheers! On 4/16/13, dark wrote: > Hi Bryan. > > simplicity of a basic game idea combined with the good design aspects was > often what made those old atari 2600 games so engaging. One great example of > > this in audio are the games created by Lworks, the arcade titles such as > Great toy robbery, lockpick and original egghunt. Another might be Gmas > recent lander game, which, while extremely simple has a complex enough set > of mechanics and design to present a real and distinct challenge just as > those old atari 2600 games did, since a player has to fully learn and get to > > grips with the basic physics and interactions of the game objects, rather > than just instantly having everything their own way. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Bryan. simplicity of a basic game idea combined with the good design aspects was often what made those old atari 2600 games so engaging. One great example of this in audio are the games created by Lworks, the arcade titles such as Great toy robbery, lockpick and original egghunt. Another might be Gmas recent lander game, which, while extremely simple has a complex enough set of mechanics and design to present a real and distinct challenge just as those old atari 2600 games did, since a player has to fully learn and get to grips with the basic physics and interactions of the game objects, rather than just instantly having everything their own way. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi tom. I fully recognize the need for practice games too, but often I have! found people particularly on the audiogames.net forum posting what I would myself considder practice games as fully finished projects, hence why we introduced the database guidelines which have at least a basic standard of design attached to them. I have no problem with people creating practice games, indeed it's a good idea to, accept that distinguishing betwene what is practice as opposed to sitting down and coming up with a game concept that has actual replayability is quite a different matter. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Thomas, Yeah, I have two starter .frm files. One has DirectX keyboard and joystick input and the other has just VB6 keyboard input. VB6 keyboard input is all that is needed in games like Press Your Luck. But both .frm files have many functions that I use in all games such as say, play, delay, adjust voice and input for things like player names etc. And then like you I also copy, paste and modify bits of code in from other games that I have written. It would be cool if there was a depository for bits of code like that for BGT. One for VB6 too, but who uses VB6 anymore? BFN Jim Might as well face it, you're addicted to code... j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Allan, how much would you be willing to spend for smaller yet high-quality games? This is really as a general query as well. One dollar? Two Dollars? Five dollars? Ten dollars?… Just curious… Thanks, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Apr 14, 2013, at 12:07 PM, Allan Thompson wrote: I think I agree with the general consensus here, but I think Charles has an excellent point. If a developer pumps out dozens of small games, I would still want quality, so quantity is really kind of useless if the developer is unwilling to spend the time to make it good. As for time in development for a game, that is really a tough call. For instance, I make maps for tactical battles. It isn't programming or anything, but it is as good as it gets for one such as myself. I find that I can make a basic no brainer map and scenario really easy. The problem is that it would be bare bones and wouldn't be fun to play. So I spend effort and resources on all the little things that make it fun and interesting, which takes time, and sometimes doesn't come out as well in practice as in your head, so you have to start over, make allowances for updates to technology, fix things that you thought were fixed but new problems arose...heck, I can spend an entire day trying to get one little stupid thing to work right, lol. So yes, Tom is right, if a developer wants quality, it is going to take time, and probably more time then he or she really has to spend. It is the creative process that drives, I think, the person to continue that kind of thing, beyond the practical. You can get a real buzz off of making something and having it be enjoyed, but it will always take lots of time. I never understood before why programmers took so long to introduce games. Now I know and I really got a new found respect for anyone who is willing to make some major sacrifices to make a game come to life. Al "The truth will set you free" Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard To: Gamers Discussion list Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games. I'll take quality of games over number of games any year of the century! Then again, there are times when I want a quick fun game of blackjack or a slot machine game to kill time before a meeting or before or after a doctor's appointment while waiting for a bus. Quality? Yes, even in these little games. If the blackjack dealer is very easy to beat, or the slot machine pays off on just about every spin, I don't want it. In such games, I want realistic outcome based on factual statistics or based on my making good judgment. I want the shuffling of cards to be realistic, the dealer to be smart enough to not draw if his total is 20, and so on. In a slot machine, I would want realistic wheel behavior and labels of what comes up, as well as a truly randomness. These are just a few examples.t --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
and i'd rather wait a year or so to play a good quality well thought out and written game then a slip shod work that gives me no fun or pleasure. Lisa Hayes www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 12:03 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games. Hello Lisa, Well, that is why I am personally taking so long on my current game projects. If it weren't for illness etc I would probably have been done a lot sooner, but I've been trying to produce the best game with the highest quality which takes time and work. I personally hold the GMA games in high regard and use games like Shades of Doom and Tank Commander as my standard of quality. If one of my products isn't that quality I don't release until it is. ;:D So I agree with you. I'd rather wait a year or so on a game to have the best quality game I could get rather than have two or three shotty ones in that time. Cheers! On 4/14/13, Lisa Hayes wrote: Well give me a good qauality game like sod and monkeyu business and others as well as the games that are just light and fun to play. Lisa Hayes --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
That's also where I'm running into a little trouble, aside from learning and retaining the BGT scripting language of course. Granted given the crap I've had to deal with in my life over the last couple months that last is understandable. But even if I develop relatively simple games to start with I'd want them to be of quality. A few of my current ideas are ones I tried to implement using the flop known as Audio Game Maker. Namely audio versions of Frogs and Flies and Adventure both of which were favorite games of mine on the Atari2600. The problem would be keeping the relative simplicity of the original games while keeping them as engaging as possible. games But thou must! -Original Message- From: Thomas Ward Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 6:13 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games. Hi Dark, Oh, definitely. A pore design is a pore design no matter how many great programmers are there to write the game. In the case of the newbie programmers writing games in BGT its a case of pore design and lack of experience combined I think. I'll use Shooting Range as a simple example here. Shooting Range reminds me a bit like Duck Hunt accept for the fact it lacks all of the challenge and replay value. In Duck Hunt the ducks steadily get faster and faster each level you move up, and eventually you get more ducks on the screen as well. In Shooting Range it is a constant rate of speed and the number of targets never changes. This is a case where a little forethought and a bit of planning could have made Shooting Range a fun little game if it had similar challenges as Duck Hunt but did not. I don't know if that is because the developer had never played games like Duck Hunt before so didn't have anything to compare it to, or was too interested in writing a practice game to really develop it beyond the preliminary version we got. Either way Shooting Range was a game that had potential, but failed to amount to anything because it lacked a little planning and a few more features. In any case design issues does seem to be the problem with many of the simple practice games being developed in BGT. I don't want to be too critical here since I know in many cases it is the developer's first or second attempt at developing a game and are still trying to learn the tools and language as well as design a game from the ground up so I don't want to be too hard on them. Unfortunately, a lot of that can be avoided just by getting back to basics and write down notes, plan out a game level by level, before jumping in and coding it which I believe is what some of the newbies do. They are so eager to be writing a game they just start writing the game before they know what the game is about, how it works, and what each level is like, etc. What we end up with is a half baked game that could have been better if the developer just spend a week or so planning things out before writing it. Cheers! On 4/15/13, dark wrote: Hi tom. Both facts are true, indeed I'd put several of Ian's games over commercial examples such as those by azabat and american printing house for quality simply because they are so well designed for what they are. In terms of new programmers that also makes sense and is why in fact on audiogames.net we draw a distinction betwene practice games and actual projects. That being said there is a design question too. Take Tarzan Junior as an example. This was I believe Philip's fourth game, indeed I think he was still about 16 when he wrote it, however he obviously sat down and considdered carefully matters such as enemy placement, how the enemies would sound as they came forward, use of multiple weapons, he even got voice acting assistance. Rather than just throwing a bunch of things at the player, the way I've seen some games designed with bgt do, Philip sat down and carefully thought what! would make a good game, where those elements could be placeed and delivered something which, while not in quality up to the standard of his later work is certainly way above the average practice game, indeed I myself bought tj back in the day since I thought ten dollars was a fair enough price for that level of quality. this is not as much about programmer, as about pure game design, considdering what challenges a player has to face, what elements make a good game and what elements are needed, certainly iv'e seen developers try and create commercial projects without those elements that have not worked. Thus, while I totally agree about programming experience, there is a bit more I think involved specifically in game design, and it's often that aspect as much as the programming that gets in the way, indeed the two are linked since programming gives you the tools while design tells you what to do with them and you really need both. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Dark, Oh, definitely. A pore design is a pore design no matter how many great programmers are there to write the game. In the case of the newbie programmers writing games in BGT its a case of pore design and lack of experience combined I think. I'll use Shooting Range as a simple example here. Shooting Range reminds me a bit like Duck Hunt accept for the fact it lacks all of the challenge and replay value. In Duck Hunt the ducks steadily get faster and faster each level you move up, and eventually you get more ducks on the screen as well. In Shooting Range it is a constant rate of speed and the number of targets never changes. This is a case where a little forethought and a bit of planning could have made Shooting Range a fun little game if it had similar challenges as Duck Hunt but did not. I don't know if that is because the developer had never played games like Duck Hunt before so didn't have anything to compare it to, or was too interested in writing a practice game to really develop it beyond the preliminary version we got. Either way Shooting Range was a game that had potential, but failed to amount to anything because it lacked a little planning and a few more features. In any case design issues does seem to be the problem with many of the simple practice games being developed in BGT. I don't want to be too critical here since I know in many cases it is the developer's first or second attempt at developing a game and are still trying to learn the tools and language as well as design a game from the ground up so I don't want to be too hard on them. Unfortunately, a lot of that can be avoided just by getting back to basics and write down notes, plan out a game level by level, before jumping in and coding it which I believe is what some of the newbies do. They are so eager to be writing a game they just start writing the game before they know what the game is about, how it works, and what each level is like, etc. What we end up with is a half baked game that could have been better if the developer just spend a week or so planning things out before writing it. Cheers! On 4/15/13, dark wrote: > Hi tom. > > Both facts are true, indeed I'd put several of Ian's games over commercial > examples such as those by azabat and american printing house for quality > simply because they are so well designed for what they are. > > In terms of new programmers that also makes sense and is why in fact on > audiogames.net we draw a distinction betwene practice games and actual > projects. > > That being said there is a design question too. Take Tarzan Junior as an > example. This was I believe Philip's fourth game, indeed I think he was > still about 16 when he wrote it, however he obviously sat down and > considdered carefully matters such as enemy placement, how the enemies would > > sound as they came forward, use of multiple weapons, he even got voice > acting assistance. Rather than just throwing a bunch of things at the > player, the way I've seen some games designed with bgt do, Philip sat down > and carefully thought what! would make a good game, where those elements > could be placeed and delivered something which, while not in quality up to > the standard of his later work is certainly way above the average practice > game, indeed I myself bought tj back in the day since I thought ten dollars > > was a fair enough price for that level of quality. > > this is not as much about programmer, as about pure game design, > considdering what challenges a player has to face, what elements make a good > > game and what elements are needed, certainly iv'e seen developers try and > create commercial projects without those elements that have not worked. > > Thus, while I totally agree about programming experience, there is a bit > more I think involved specifically in game design, and it's often that > aspect as much as the programming that gets in the way, indeed the two are > linked since programming gives you the tools while design tells you what to > > do with them and you really need both. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns rega
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
In a one-man operation, it both programming and design that count. Come to think of it, it doesn't matter how many people are involved. Good design is important. Good programming is, too. --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: "dark" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games. Hi tom. Both facts are true, indeed I'd put several of Ian's games over commercial examples such as those by azabat and american printing house for quality simply because they are so well designed for what they are. In terms of new programmers that also makes sense and is why in fact on audiogames.net we draw a distinction betwene practice games and actual projects. That being said there is a design question too. Take Tarzan Junior as an example. This was I believe Philip's fourth game, indeed I think he was still about 16 when he wrote it, however he obviously sat down and considdered carefully matters such as enemy placement, how the enemies would sound as they came forward, use of multiple weapons, he even got voice acting assistance. Rather than just throwing a bunch of things at the player, the way I've seen some games designed with bgt do, Philip sat down and carefully thought what! would make a good game, where those elements could be placeed and delivered something which, while not in quality up to the standard of his later work is certainly way above the average practice game, indeed I myself bought tj back in the day since I thought ten dollars was a fair enough price for that level of quality. this is not as much about programmer, as about pure game design, considdering what challenges a player has to face, what elements make a good game and what elements are needed, certainly iv'e seen developers try and create commercial projects without those elements that have not worked. Thus, while I totally agree about programming experience, there is a bit more I think involved specifically in game design, and it's often that aspect as much as the programming that gets in the way, indeed the two are linked since programming gives you the tools while design tells you what to do with them and you really need both. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi tom. Both facts are true, indeed I'd put several of Ian's games over commercial examples such as those by azabat and american printing house for quality simply because they are so well designed for what they are. In terms of new programmers that also makes sense and is why in fact on audiogames.net we draw a distinction betwene practice games and actual projects. That being said there is a design question too. Take Tarzan Junior as an example. This was I believe Philip's fourth game, indeed I think he was still about 16 when he wrote it, however he obviously sat down and considdered carefully matters such as enemy placement, how the enemies would sound as they came forward, use of multiple weapons, he even got voice acting assistance. Rather than just throwing a bunch of things at the player, the way I've seen some games designed with bgt do, Philip sat down and carefully thought what! would make a good game, where those elements could be placeed and delivered something which, while not in quality up to the standard of his later work is certainly way above the average practice game, indeed I myself bought tj back in the day since I thought ten dollars was a fair enough price for that level of quality. this is not as much about programmer, as about pure game design, considdering what challenges a player has to face, what elements make a good game and what elements are needed, certainly iv'e seen developers try and create commercial projects without those elements that have not worked. Thus, while I totally agree about programming experience, there is a bit more I think involved specifically in game design, and it's often that aspect as much as the programming that gets in the way, indeed the two are linked since programming gives you the tools while design tells you what to do with them and you really need both. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Dark, Absolutely. The Spoonbill games are a great example of simple with quality. I have a lot of Ian's games and they are better than the ones that come with Windows 7 which is saying something about how a developer can develop quick and simple games with a high degree of quality. However, I think experience has a lot to do with it too. You mentioned the fact there are a lot of new games coming out written with BGT and Python and the quality isn't there. This is true, but we must consider the fact the developers themselves are rather green, don't know much about programming, so more complex concepts might be beyond their skill or abilities so the over all quality suffers because of it. Someone like Ian has been writing games for a while now so can crank out a new card or board game with all kinds of features in a relatively short amount of time because he knows what he is doing, and doesn't have to waste time and energy on a lot of newbie mistakes and first attempts. Something else that helps in terms of quality and speed is reusable code. I know I have been programming for years so I have quite a lot of sample code just laying around I can paste into a project and modify as needed. It helps when you have a sample function you wrote months ago which can be modified to suit the current project which saves time and energy. A newbie won't have a library of reusable code to work with. Cheers! On 4/15/13, dark wrote: > I will add however, that even in small games, quality can vary. > > Take the BG games for instance. These do not seem to take Ian humphries long > > to write, yet seem to have lots of features, even and above commercial > varients. For example low vision workable graphics, different skill levels > of the computer, many speech and review keys, intelligent computer hints > (his mastermind is quite ridiculous for that), ability to generate different > > puzzles, heck, his crosswords game even lets you load in several sorts of > crosswords from across the internet. > > So for me at least, while it is certainly true that something like Gma tank > > commander takes a lot more building than a word or puzzle game, or even a > simple arcade game, there still does seem to be a quality aspect of design > there to be considdered from the perspective of the programmer. > > this is doubly true considdering we're seeng lots of people using BGt and > python to create smaller, simple arcade games, but often ones without enough > > features or detail to be of a reasonable standard, either from a design > perspective, or simply from a point of view of running smoothly. > > Beware the grue! > > Dark. > > > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hello Lisa, Well, that is why I am personally taking so long on my current game projects. If it weren't for illness etc I would probably have been done a lot sooner, but I've been trying to produce the best game with the highest quality which takes time and work. I personally hold the GMA games in high regard and use games like Shades of Doom and Tank Commander as my standard of quality. If one of my products isn't that quality I don't release until it is. ;:D So I agree with you. I'd rather wait a year or so on a game to have the best quality game I could get rather than have two or three shotty ones in that time. Cheers! On 4/14/13, Lisa Hayes wrote: > Well give me a good qauality game like sod and monkeyu business and others > as well as the games that are just light and fun to play. > Lisa Hayes > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
I will add however, that even in small games, quality can vary. Take the BG games for instance. These do not seem to take Ian humphries long to write, yet seem to have lots of features, even and above commercial varients. For example low vision workable graphics, different skill levels of the computer, many speech and review keys, intelligent computer hints (his mastermind is quite ridiculous for that), ability to generate different puzzles, heck, his crosswords game even lets you load in several sorts of crosswords from across the internet. So for me at least, while it is certainly true that something like Gma tank commander takes a lot more building than a word or puzzle game, or even a simple arcade game, there still does seem to be a quality aspect of design there to be considdered from the perspective of the programmer. this is doubly true considdering we're seeng lots of people using BGt and python to create smaller, simple arcade games, but often ones without enough features or detail to be of a reasonable standard, either from a design perspective, or simply from a point of view of running smoothly. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Well give me a good qauality game like sod and monkeyu business and others as well as the games that are just light and fun to play. Lisa Hayes www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 3:09 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games. Hi Lisa, Agreed. Although, the basic point of the message you are referring to was that a game developer could develop many simple games be it Blackjack, Uno, Space Invaders, whatever or devote that time and effort towards another game like GMA Tank Commander or Shades of Doom. Although, some gamers want more and more new games it really isn't possible to have quantity and quality at the same time was my over all point. Still, you are right. Bavisoft is just one of many game companies that have come along developed a couple of games and essentially quit for seemingly no apparent reason. Some game companies such as Lighttech we know the reason why, and a lot came down to the fact that they were young and wanted to do something else besides make games all day. It is hard to keep quality talent in this business and a lot of time it comes down to a choice of quality or quantity of games but not both. Cheers! On 4/14/13, Lisa Hayes wrote: HI thomas and all, I've changed the subject line because i'm taking from a message that thomas sent another angle on the format of the mag thread. We've recently been talking about bavisoft and how they're not doing what they should in responding to people ande all they are in my view making it hard for other game developers by releasing two games and going belly up they are not out their doing what we might want them to do and i'd rather have quality games with customer support and open and clear communication like we get then two from what i understand very simple games and nothing. Lisa Hayes www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Charles, True. Although, once again time is a factor. In order to produce a high quality Blackjack game it would take far less time than say a high quality FPS game like Shades of Doom. So I think it would be possible to write several small high quality games like Blackjack, Uno, or Poker, but far more time to create a high quality clone of Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, Jedi Knight, etc. I guess what it comes down to is several simple games or one highly complex game rather than quantity verses quality. Cheers! On 4/14/13, Charles Rivard wrote: > I'll take quality of games over number of games any year of the century! > Then again, there are times when I want a quick fun game of blackjack or a > slot machine game to kill time before a meeting or before or after a > doctor's appointment while waiting for a bus. Quality? Yes, even in these > > little games. If the blackjack dealer is very easy to beat, or the slot > machine pays off on just about every spin, I don't want it. In such games, > > I want realistic outcome based on factual statistics or based on my making > good judgment. I want the shuffling of cards to be realistic, the dealer to > > be smart enough to not draw if his total is 20, and so on. In a slot > machine, I would want realistic wheel behavior and labels of what comes up, > > as well as a truly randomness. These are just a few examples.t > > --- > Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
I think I agree with the general consensus here, but I think Charles has an excellent point. If a developer pumps out dozens of small games, I would still want quality, so quantity is really kind of useless if the developer is unwilling to spend the time to make it good. As for time in development for a game, that is really a tough call. For instance, I make maps for tactical battles. It isn't programming or anything, but it is as good as it gets for one such as myself. I find that I can make a basic no brainer map and scenario really easy. The problem is that it would be bare bones and wouldn't be fun to play. So I spend effort and resources on all the little things that make it fun and interesting, which takes time, and sometimes doesn't come out as well in practice as in your head, so you have to start over, make allowances for updates to technology, fix things that you thought were fixed but new problems arose...heck, I can spend an entire day trying to get one little stupid thing to work right, lol. So yes, Tom is right, if a developer wants quality, it is going to take time, and probably more time then he or she really has to spend. It is the creative process that drives, I think, the person to continue that kind of thing, beyond the practical. You can get a real buzz off of making something and having it be enjoyed, but it will always take lots of time. I never understood before why programmers took so long to introduce games. Now I know and I really got a new found respect for anyone who is willing to make some major sacrifices to make a game come to life. Al "The truth will set you free" Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard To: Gamers Discussion list Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games. I'll take quality of games over number of games any year of the century! Then again, there are times when I want a quick fun game of blackjack or a slot machine game to kill time before a meeting or before or after a doctor's appointment while waiting for a bus. Quality? Yes, even in these little games. If the blackjack dealer is very easy to beat, or the slot machine pays off on just about every spin, I don't want it. In such games, I want realistic outcome based on factual statistics or based on my making good judgment. I want the shuffling of cards to be realistic, the dealer to be smart enough to not draw if his total is 20, and so on. In a slot machine, I would want realistic wheel behavior and labels of what comes up, as well as a truly randomness. These are just a few examples.t --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
I'll take quality of games over number of games any year of the century! Then again, there are times when I want a quick fun game of blackjack or a slot machine game to kill time before a meeting or before or after a doctor's appointment while waiting for a bus. Quality? Yes, even in these little games. If the blackjack dealer is very easy to beat, or the slot machine pays off on just about every spin, I don't want it. In such games, I want realistic outcome based on factual statistics or based on my making good judgment. I want the shuffling of cards to be realistic, the dealer to be smart enough to not draw if his total is 20, and so on. In a slot machine, I would want realistic wheel behavior and labels of what comes up, as well as a truly randomness. These are just a few examples.t --- Shepherds are the best beasts, but Labs are a close second. - Original Message - From: "Thomas Ward" To: "Gamers Discussion list" Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 12:09 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games. Hi Lisa, Agreed. Although, the basic point of the message you are referring to was that a game developer could develop many simple games be it Blackjack, Uno, Space Invaders, whatever or devote that time and effort towards another game like GMA Tank Commander or Shades of Doom. Although, some gamers want more and more new games it really isn't possible to have quantity and quality at the same time was my over all point. Still, you are right. Bavisoft is just one of many game companies that have come along developed a couple of games and essentially quit for seemingly no apparent reason. Some game companies such as Lighttech we know the reason why, and a lot came down to the fact that they were young and wanted to do something else besides make games all day. It is hard to keep quality talent in this business and a lot of time it comes down to a choice of quality or quantity of games but not both. Cheers! On 4/14/13, Lisa Hayes wrote: HI thomas and all, I've changed the subject line because i'm taking from a message that thomas sent another angle on the format of the mag thread. We've recently been talking about bavisoft and how they're not doing what they should in responding to people ande all they are in my view making it hard for other game developers by releasing two games and going belly up they are not out their doing what we might want them to do and i'd rather have quality games with customer support and open and clear communication like we get then two from what i understand very simple games and nothing. Lisa Hayes www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
Hi Lisa, Agreed. Although, the basic point of the message you are referring to was that a game developer could develop many simple games be it Blackjack, Uno, Space Invaders, whatever or devote that time and effort towards another game like GMA Tank Commander or Shades of Doom. Although, some gamers want more and more new games it really isn't possible to have quantity and quality at the same time was my over all point. Still, you are right. Bavisoft is just one of many game companies that have come along developed a couple of games and essentially quit for seemingly no apparent reason. Some game companies such as Lighttech we know the reason why, and a lot came down to the fact that they were young and wanted to do something else besides make games all day. It is hard to keep quality talent in this business and a lot of time it comes down to a choice of quality or quantity of games but not both. Cheers! On 4/14/13, Lisa Hayes wrote: > HI thomas and all, I've changed the subject line because i'm taking from a > message that thomas sent another angle on the format of the mag thread. > We've recently been talking about bavisoft and how they're not doing what > they should in responding to people ande all they are in my view making it > hard for other game developers by releasing two games and going belly up > they are not out their doing what we might want them to do and i'd rather > have quality games with customer support and open and clear communication > like we get then two from what i understand very simple games and nothing. > > Lisa Hayes > > > > > www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes > --- > Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org > If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to > gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. > You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at > http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. > All messages are archived and can be searched and read at > http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. > If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, > please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. > --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Quality verses quantity of games.
HI thomas and all, I've changed the subject line because i'm taking from a message that thomas sent another angle on the format of the mag thread. We've recently been talking about bavisoft and how they're not doing what they should in responding to people ande all they are in my view making it hard for other game developers by releasing two games and going belly up they are not out their doing what we might want them to do and i'd rather have quality games with customer support and open and clear communication like we get then two from what i understand very simple games and nothing. Lisa Hayes www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
