Re: [Audyssey] controller versus keyboard - Re: saitek pro flight system?
Well I am happy to have a supporter at least with the keyboard thing. I agree, all controler support mouse touch, boards and sticks should be included when and if at all possible cost permitting ofcause. Maneuvering with a stick is better than a board obviously. I have never managed to control a stick or mouse that well though. At 02:59 a.m. 9/08/2014, you wrote: Personally, I think that both keyboard and controller support should be included in games. Having said that, using a keyboard, can you dive while also turning when maneuvering a submarine? How about with a joystick? Maybe, to spark interest, what are the advantages of using a game controller compared to what can be done with a keyboard? And how much does a good controller cost compared to a keyboard? Thanks. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 2:57 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] saitek pro flight system? Shaun, That's where we differ in opinion. I came from the mainstream video game world, and grew up on joysticks, gamepads, and so on and I can tell you straight up front that using a keyboard is a drastically less intuitive and less flexible mode of input. I'm sure your opinion that keyboards is all a blind user needs has been shaped by the game's currently on the market that do not truly harness the power of the joystick or gamepad. While understandable it is wrongheaded and it is exactly opinions like yours why some blind game developers don't develop more games that exclusively harness the power and advantages of a joystick or a mouse for that matter. For example, I can say what the general reaction of the blind community would be if I, as a developer, did so. Let's say I right this really cool game, but design it where a joystick or gamepad is required. I'd never hear the end of moaning, and groaning over the fact I did not adequately support the keyboard, that they don't have a joystick, that they don't have money to buy one, etc. What seems to be missing in all this complaining and moaning and groaning is the point I was trying to introduce a more mainstream mode of input that is often times much better than the one they want. I know this because I remember the wining and complaining people made when Che Martin introduced the mouse support in Rail Racer and Aprone did so in Swamp. Given that kind of negative attitude to change why bother trying to raise the standard of audio gaming if people are just going to wine about it? Don't mean to go on a rant here, but your attitude that a keyboard is all a blind person needs for gaming lacks any kind of experience with the many ways it could improve audio gaming. That it would be easier, more intuitive, and over all offer newer and better ways to do things. You need to consider the advantages of the alternatives rather than just assume audio gaming can not and will not be any better than it is right now. In short, if mediocre games is all you want from developers that's all you will ever get. Cheers! On 8/5/14, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: I had an old force feedback stick before these were fashonable however I got rid of it because I wasn't using it. Apart from 3d verlosity which I havn't really mastered that well I have not managed to really get into the habbit of using a stick for anything else. I have a mouse and since swamp one of the only games that used it is payed and I don't spend the time to really do it justice, I have decided to leave that to. I still think for us blind people that a good basic keyboard is all we will ever need. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All
Re: [Audyssey] controller versus keyboard - Re: saitek pro flight system?
Hi shaun, that may be, but as I said its a case of practice. If you aren't use to it of course you aren't going to be very good at using a joystick, gamepad, or similar device. Plus it also depends on if your controller is properly calibrated. If not maneuvering can be problematic and irregular. It seems to me what we need is a FAQ on this, because as a long time joystick/gamepad user its easy to assume everyone else knows the same things I do. Cheers! On 8/10/14, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well I am happy to have a supporter at least with the keyboard thing. I agree, all controler support mouse touch, boards and sticks should be included when and if at all possible cost permitting ofcause. Maneuvering with a stick is better than a board obviously. I have never managed to control a stick or mouse that well though. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] controller versus keyboard - Re: saitek pro flight system?
Hi Charles, While I agree with you in principle that all games should include keyboard support along side mouse and joystick support that does not mean that there are certain cases where a joystick or mouse is preferable. One of the principle problems here as far as I am concerned is that there are not enough audio games that adequately demonstrates the fact there are cases where a joystick is more precise, more accurate, and much more suited to a certain type of game than is a keyboard. Someone who has always used a keyboard, has had little experience with joysticks in more advanced games, may think the two input methods are equal in function, but they really aren't. To give you an excellent example take Rail Racer by Blind Adrenaline. You are in a racer, a pod on rails, and one of the things you have to master is leaning while going into the turns. Lean too far left or right and you'll hit the sides of the track loosing speed and time on your laps. Don't lean far enough into the turn and your racer will slow down and loose lap time as well. As a result winning and loosing depends a lot on how well you master the turns and leaning into them. The thing is that a keyboard isn't as precise or well suited for precise adjustments, and I am much slower at my lap times in Rail Racer with a keyboard than I am with a joystick or racing wheel. I noticed the first time that I hooked up a joystick to the game and chose to use that instead that it was A, more comfortable, and B, I managed to beat my best lap time by a full five seconds. The point being even without seriously trying to beat my lap times I did it just because the joystick gave me more precise and accurate control over my racer that was just not possible with the keyboard. People who don't regularly use joysticks probably are not aware of the advantages one would have in certain games, and how they could improve the over all playing experience. So comparing prices to keyboards or stating the fact that not enough games have joystick support to justify buying one is only beside the point that they have advantages. One very good example I can think of is the advantage of duel thumbsticks. I don't know of any accessible fighting games that uses this feature of gamepads, but it comes in handy for certain types of fighting games. You could use the left thumbstick to move the character north, south, east, west and the right thumbstick to control a sword or light saber. You could use the right thumbstick to simulate actual swings, parries, slashes, spin your sword, all while moving your character around with the left thumbstick. While it may be possible to simulate this functionality with a keyboard it won't be as comfortable or as smooth as a joystick. Not only that but the way joysticks work offers the possibility to do more interesting things besides merely move left, right, forward,backward, up, or down. Most joysticks offer a range of values from -5000 to 5000 on the x and y axis. What is good about this in addition to direction you can use the value of the x and y axis to determine the speed or rate of the character or in a case like Rail Racer determine how much to turn and lean based on that input value. Keyboards only return an up/down or pressed/released state. Therefore it requires building timers and various checks that simulate the advantages of a joystick all because a keyboard doesn't have the same degree of accuracy and control as a joystick. Weather joysticks offer advantages over keyboards or not you are right to ask about price. On average I'd say an average joystick or gamepad costs about $39 to $49 most places here in the US. Not terribly expensive, but depending on want/need that may be too high for some users. I've seen very cheap ones for $15 and some have gone clear up to $150 or so for a premium controller. So while they can be had for a reasonable price some can get extremely expensive depending on how advanced a gamer is looking for. On the other hand keyboards come bundled with a computer so for the average computer user someone might as well say it doesn't cost anything to own one. If they have to buy one extra again price depends on quality. I'd say $29 to $39 being the average for wireless keyboards, and about $19 being average for a USB keyboard with no fancy features. More or less the same price range as a joystick if one considers it an accessory rather than being bundled with a computer. Since we are on this topic I might want to add that a Logitech gaming mouse, one with gaming features, is in the same general price range too. A decent mouse can be purchased for $39 with 8 or more buttons, wheel, rubber grips, etc. Where as the average PC mouse is like $10 or so. Conclusion buying a good gaming mouse for Swamp etc is no big deal. Cheers! On 8/8/14, Charles Rivard wee1s...@fidnet.com wrote: Personally, I think that both keyboard and controller support should be included in games. Having said that, using a
[Audyssey] controller versus keyboard - Re: saitek pro flight system?
Personally, I think that both keyboard and controller support should be included in games. Having said that, using a keyboard, can you dive while also turning when maneuvering a submarine? How about with a joystick? Maybe, to spark interest, what are the advantages of using a game controller compared to what can be done with a keyboard? And how much does a good controller cost compared to a keyboard? Thanks. --- Be positive! When it comes to being defeated, if you think you're finished, you! really! are! finished! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, August 08, 2014 2:57 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] saitek pro flight system? Shaun, That's where we differ in opinion. I came from the mainstream video game world, and grew up on joysticks, gamepads, and so on and I can tell you straight up front that using a keyboard is a drastically less intuitive and less flexible mode of input. I'm sure your opinion that keyboards is all a blind user needs has been shaped by the game's currently on the market that do not truly harness the power of the joystick or gamepad. While understandable it is wrongheaded and it is exactly opinions like yours why some blind game developers don't develop more games that exclusively harness the power and advantages of a joystick or a mouse for that matter. For example, I can say what the general reaction of the blind community would be if I, as a developer, did so. Let's say I right this really cool game, but design it where a joystick or gamepad is required. I'd never hear the end of moaning, and groaning over the fact I did not adequately support the keyboard, that they don't have a joystick, that they don't have money to buy one, etc. What seems to be missing in all this complaining and moaning and groaning is the point I was trying to introduce a more mainstream mode of input that is often times much better than the one they want. I know this because I remember the wining and complaining people made when Che Martin introduced the mouse support in Rail Racer and Aprone did so in Swamp. Given that kind of negative attitude to change why bother trying to raise the standard of audio gaming if people are just going to wine about it? Don't mean to go on a rant here, but your attitude that a keyboard is all a blind person needs for gaming lacks any kind of experience with the many ways it could improve audio gaming. That it would be easier, more intuitive, and over all offer newer and better ways to do things. You need to consider the advantages of the alternatives rather than just assume audio gaming can not and will not be any better than it is right now. In short, if mediocre games is all you want from developers that's all you will ever get. Cheers! On 8/5/14, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: I had an old force feedback stick before these were fashonable however I got rid of it because I wasn't using it. Apart from 3d verlosity which I havn't really mastered that well I have not managed to really get into the habbit of using a stick for anything else. I have a mouse and since swamp one of the only games that used it is payed and I don't spend the time to really do it justice, I have decided to leave that to. I still think for us blind people that a good basic keyboard is all we will ever need. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
