Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
well tom, when entombed was in testing, we would jump from alpha to beta status quite a lot. Each alpha had several revisions, then would jump to beta then full. We did that till 1.0, then almost immediatly after 1.02, we dropped to beta revisions because of bugs. In the latest test unstable version we have dropped to alpha again. So we only stayed in production mode for a little while, so it can go backwards as well as foreward and can do that many times over. At 08:55 a.m. 15/06/2011, you wrote: Hi Philip, Well, I think you are right. The primary mistake I made with beta 19 was simply that I didn't explain to the end users that this was to be considered an experimental release only and not in anyway a full production release. Beta 18 was an official production release were beta 19 wasn't. Beta 19 was an experiment to see how well the cross-platform engine run on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 which I should have been up front about from the beginning. Plus I didn't say why I had removed joystick and mouse support, and people assumed the worst and thought that I was intending on taking it out of the final release when it was only intended for that specific release or build only. The thing is, and I wish I had made this clearer from the beginning, what we have is two different engines more or less in production at the same time. I've got the Windows specific version of the engine which is definitely production quality, has been in development for a couple of years, and is fairly stable. Then, we've got the cross-platform or Linux version of the engine that isn't yet production quality mainly because I haven't found something comparable to DirectX I can replace those components with. I've not actually converted the full Windows engine over to Linux yet so there are a lot of things that need doing like adding joystick support, for example, before it is 100% up to par for writing production quality games as is in evidence with beta 19. Plus I confess when it comes to writing applications for Linux I'm still largely in the dark about many of the libraries and APIs it uses. I've been writing both private and professional software for Windows for probably 10 years so when it comes to Windows core APIs and components I pretty much know what I'm doing so I can put together something pretty quickly and it will be pretty stable because of my past experience. With Linux if you tell me to write an application using one of the graphics toolkits like GTK+, QT, WX, etc I'm going to have to study up on it, write some experimental code, etc because I have no background experience working with those APIs. The only times I've been called upon to write a professional application for Linux such as a graphical front end for a MySQL database I wrote it in Java using the cross-platform Swing toolkit, and since Java is all pretty self-contained that doesn't count as practical experience for what i'm doing now with this cross-platform engine. So its all pretty much experimental code at this point as far as the cross-platform engine is concerned. I think the best thing to do right now is to finish MOTA using the Windows specific engine since it is production quality, get the game sold using that technology, and put off finishing the cross-platform engine until that is out of the way. That way when I say I've got an experimental release that might be cross-platform people aren't going to be as upset with me because if they don't like the experimental cross-platform version they can fallback on 1.0 which is stable and up to their personal standards. The lesson I've learned is this. First, be up front about my intentions, long term goals or plans, and people will understand what I'm after. Second, attach, if possible, a buglog.txt file to the release so people will be informed what problems are in the release and what is on the todo list for the next upgrade. Third, don't try and remove a bunch of features after you just released them in a prior release as some people aren't going to respond well to bleeding edge code regardless of how temporary the removal might or might not be. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Got a question for you. With all the lists your on and all the questions you see, and know the answers are in the help or doc's for the program. How many do you actually know that read them? I get throne off lists just for telling them to read help files and docs. Ignorance is bless and abundant in the blind community. At 08:51 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote: I still contend that a beta is just that. A trial version that is still under development. Anyone who doesn't know that will find out by, maybe, reading the documentation that comes with the game. If you state in the documentation, maybe on the download page and in the license?, that this is a beta, it still under development and is, therefore, not a final release, and that gamers are working with it at their own risk, and the gamer doesn't read it but does agree to it by using the software, it's their problem. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Philip, Well, I think you are right. The primary mistake I made with beta 19 was simply that I didn't explain to the end users that this was to be considered an experimental release only and not in anyway a full production release. Beta 18 was an official production release were beta 19 wasn't. Beta 19 was an experiment to see how well the cross-platform engine run on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 which I should have been up front about from the beginning. Plus I didn't say why I had removed joystick and mouse support, and people assumed the worst and thought that I was intending on taking it out of the final release when it was only intended for that specific release or build only. The thing is, and I wish I had made this clearer from the beginning, what we have is two different engines more or less in production at the same time. I've got the Windows specific version of the engine which is definitely production quality, has been in development for a couple of years, and is fairly stable. Then, we've got the cross-platform or Linux version of the engine that isn't yet production quality mainly because I haven't found something comparable to DirectX I can replace those components with. I've not actually converted the full Windows engine over to Linux yet so there are a lot of things that need doing like adding joystick support, for example, before it is 100% up to par for writing production quality games as is in evidence with beta 19. Plus I confess when it comes to writing applications for Linux I'm still largely in the dark about many of the libraries and APIs it uses. I've been writing both private and professional software for Windows for probably 10 years so when it comes to Windows core APIs and components I pretty much know what I'm doing so I can put together something pretty quickly and it will be pretty stable because of my past experience. With Linux if you tell me to write an application using one of the graphics toolkits like GTK+, QT, WX, etc I'm going to have to study up on it, write some experimental code, etc because I have no background experience working with those APIs. The only times I've been called upon to write a professional application for Linux such as a graphical front end for a MySQL database I wrote it in Java using the cross-platform Swing toolkit, and since Java is all pretty self-contained that doesn't count as practical experience for what i'm doing now with this cross-platform engine. So its all pretty much experimental code at this point as far as the cross-platform engine is concerned. I think the best thing to do right now is to finish MOTA using the Windows specific engine since it is production quality, get the game sold using that technology, and put off finishing the cross-platform engine until that is out of the way. That way when I say I've got an experimental release that might be cross-platform people aren't going to be as upset with me because if they don't like the experimental cross-platform version they can fallback on 1.0 which is stable and up to their personal standards. The lesson I've learned is this. First, be up front about my intentions, long term goals or plans, and people will understand what I'm after. Second, attach, if possible, a buglog.txt file to the release so people will be informed what problems are in the release and what is on the todo list for the next upgrade. Third, don't try and remove a bunch of features after you just released them in a prior release as some people aren't going to respond well to bleeding edge code regardless of how temporary the removal might or might not be. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage. What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team. Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's. That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not just throne at you. At 08:19 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote: Hi Phil, I suppose you are right. Calling it beta 19, as in following beta 18, wasn't the best move as beta 19 wasn't exactly a production release and more of an experimental release as I have said. Next time I feel inclined to test something like that I'll clearly indicate this release is not to be confused with the current production releases. Cheers! On 6/14/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote: Hi Thomas, I suspect the main problem is the number 19. If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think fewer people would have complained. Smiles, Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Just a slight correction though Trouble. It's Beta, B E T A, not Bait A. LOL. Don't feel too bad though. I've seen far weirder versions. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 7:16 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage. What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team. Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's. That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not just throne at you. At 08:19 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote: Hi Phil, I suppose you are right. Calling it beta 19, as in following beta 18, wasn't the best move as beta 19 wasn't exactly a production release and more of an experimental release as I have said. Next time I feel inclined to test something like that I'll clearly indicate this release is not to be confused with the current production releases. Cheers! On 6/14/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote: Hi Thomas, I suspect the main problem is the number 19. If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think fewer people would have complained. Smiles, Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
The way my spell checker is acting up lucky got that much out. This last build of jaws is really going down hill. Haven't seen this much email on lists abut jaws problems sense vista came out. At 09:27 AM 6/15/2011, you wrote: Just a slight correction though Trouble. It's Beta, B E T A, not Bait A. LOL. Don't feel too bad though. I've seen far weirder versions. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 7:16 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage. What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team. Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's. That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not just throne at you. At 08:19 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote: Hi Phil, I suppose you are right. Calling it beta 19, as in following beta 18, wasn't the best move as beta 19 wasn't exactly a production release and more of an experimental release as I have said. Next time I feel inclined to test something like that I'll clearly indicate this release is not to be confused with the current production releases. Cheers! On 6/14/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote: Hi Thomas, I suspect the main problem is the number 19. If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think fewer people would have complained. Smiles, Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
All the more reason for me to be thankful that I don't use JAWS anymore. I'm just dreading the possibility of having to go back to using it on the ob if Window-Eyes can't be made to work with whatever software they use. Of course first I have to actually get a job, but that's another topic entirely. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support The way my spell checker is acting up lucky got that much out. This last build of jaws is really going down hill. Haven't seen this much email on lists abut jaws problems sense vista came out. At 09:27 AM 6/15/2011, you wrote: Just a slight correction though Trouble. It's Beta, B E T A, not Bait A. LOL. Don't feel too bad though. I've seen far weirder versions. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 7:16 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage. What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team. Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's. That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not just throne at you. At 08:19 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote: Hi Phil, I suppose you are right. Calling it beta 19, as in following beta 18, wasn't the best move as beta 19 wasn't exactly a production release and more of an experimental release as I have said. Next time I feel inclined to test something like that I'll clearly indicate this release is not to be confused with the current production releases. Cheers! On 6/14/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote: Hi Thomas, I suspect the main problem is the number 19. If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think fewer people would have complained. Smiles, Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Charles, That may be true, and I personally agree with you. However, not everyone shares that opinion or has the same expectations. Beta 18 was a fairly stable release, had decent audio, full joystick/mouse support, analog jumping, and so forth so the public was expecting something like that for beta 19. When they discovered some setbacks, degration of features, based on a different version of the engine it wasn't at at all what they had come to expect based on prior history of the project. What Philip said is true. Some warning or note that this was experimental code with degrated features might have prepared the public for what was to be expected. On 6/14/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I still contend that a beta is just that. A trial version that is still under development. Anyone who doesn't know that will find out by, maybe, reading the documentation that comes with the game. If you state in the documentation, maybe on the download page and in the license?, that this is a beta, it still under development and is, therefore, not a final release, and that gamers are working with it at their own risk, and the gamer doesn't read it but does agree to it by using the software, it's their problem. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Trouble, Actually, I have a beta team. The only problem is that many of the people don't seem to give me enough feedback on the project. What I might want to do is redo or repick the members of the team as public betas definitely aren't working out. On 6/15/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage. What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team. Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's. That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not just throne at you. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Trouble, That's something as a game developer I'm not sure how to handle. It is one thing to spend months of writing documentation only to have some user come on the list and ask hundreds of questions that can easily be answered by reading the manual. The mainstream games do have a bit of a solution for this problem by having training levels that talk you through the basics like walk forward, stop, now hold down alt+forward to jump forward, etc. That seems to work out fairly well for the mainstream games because it is more interactive than a manual. I wonder if perhaps that might be the way audio games should go as well. Either way there are things such as known problems, changes, or just side notes that have to be written down. If the end users don't read it it is their problem. They just make it our problem to because we have to repete ourselves time and again because they don't have enough brains to read the readme file with the software. On 6/15/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: Got a question for you. With all the lists your on and all the questions you see, and know the answers are in the help or doc's for the program. How many do you actually know that read them? I get throne off lists just for telling them to read help files and docs. Ignorance is bless and abundant in the blind community. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
well I am always looking for a test team. With the demise of the treasure hunt game and apart from my small uni work I am officially out of any real online testing of whatever it is. I have been idol for at least 4 years or so. The last game I tested was a small spoonbil job. At 01:16 a.m. 16/06/2011, you wrote: As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage. What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team. Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's. That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not just throne at you. At 08:19 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote: Hi Phil, I suppose you are right. Calling it beta 19, as in following beta 18, wasn't the best move as beta 19 wasn't exactly a production release and more of an experimental release as I have said. Next time I feel inclined to test something like that I'll clearly indicate this release is not to be confused with the current production releases. Cheers! On 6/14/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote: Hi Thomas, I suspect the main problem is the number 19. If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think fewer people would have complained. Smiles, Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
well businesses here still think jaws is what everysone should use though thankfully nvda seems to be getting loads of attention. At 02:00 a.m. 16/06/2011, you wrote: All the more reason for me to be thankful that I don't use JAWS anymore. I'm just dreading the possibility of having to go back to using it on the ob if Window-Eyes can't be made to work with whatever software they use. Of course first I have to actually get a job, but that's another topic entirely. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 7:48 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support The way my spell checker is acting up lucky got that much out. This last build of jaws is really going down hill. Haven't seen this much email on lists abut jaws problems sense vista came out. At 09:27 AM 6/15/2011, you wrote: Just a slight correction though Trouble. It's Beta, B E T A, not Bait A. LOL. Don't feel too bad though. I've seen far weirder versions. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 7:16 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage. What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team. Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's. That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not just throne at you. At 08:19 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote: Hi Phil, I suppose you are right. Calling it beta 19, as in following beta 18, wasn't the best move as beta 19 wasn't exactly a production release and more of an experimental release as I have said. Next time I feel inclined to test something like that I'll clearly indicate this release is not to be confused with the current production releases. Cheers! On 6/14/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote: Hi Thomas, I suspect the main problem is the number 19. If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think fewer people would have complained. Smiles, Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
well I will always do perminant testing for you if you wish. I used to have a perminant position with xsight but that died. So to have something like that again especially with you would really rock. Though I have to warn you I won't lie about anything, if its a piece of crap and I really hate it you will most likely hear about it. I don't sugarcoat for any reason what so ever unless the reason is good enough and within reason. At 02:19 a.m. 16/06/2011, you wrote: Hi Trouble, Actually, I have a beta team. The only problem is that many of the people don't seem to give me enough feedback on the project. What I might want to do is redo or repick the members of the team as public betas definitely aren't working out. On 6/15/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage. What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team. Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's. That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not just throne at you. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
well tom if I may speak my mind, a lot of mainstreams are going into that as well as a manual. I alert your attention to the halflife series of games. You are trained, and go through quite a few levels. walking, jumping, junping trap-ps, climbing running, run-jumping. Etc including what will happen when you fall into a trap what you want to avoid, etc. Ofcause, that may cost you a bit extra if you have to get someone to record the training levels, you could do that with sapi but the mainstreams always had in the case of halflife a voice saying things like good, or whatever progress updates, and a main voice female in this case telling you what to do. You would have to repeat things to if the player needed it again. In the long term this will rock. But in the short term it will probably cost you a few extra bucks depending on the source you grab things from, and how fancy, along with the initial coding of stuff. So there are advantages about this and dissadvantages about it. Starting will be quite sucky, and hard and crappy but after that it should rock. Not to mention that will be another sound loaded in memmory. Though you probably could minimise that by only loading the level sounds for each level or in fact each room or area to keep that down but then I am no programmer it could take ages to do this and that. You could always do the trainer afterwards if you don't want to code that now. You could even if you wished as an experiment try to train the new panning system abbrupt and crappy that it is. One of the major issues is I have to stop with this panning to pick up an object and I like running and getting, though I realise thats wishfull thinking if i was in the real world. I'd have to stop to scoop something. At 02:29 a.m. 16/06/2011, you wrote: Hi Trouble, That's something as a game developer I'm not sure how to handle. It is one thing to spend months of writing documentation only to have some user come on the list and ask hundreds of questions that can easily be answered by reading the manual. The mainstream games do have a bit of a solution for this problem by having training levels that talk you through the basics like walk forward, stop, now hold down alt+forward to jump forward, etc. That seems to work out fairly well for the mainstream games because it is more interactive than a manual. I wonder if perhaps that might be the way audio games should go as well. Either way there are things such as known problems, changes, or just side notes that have to be written down. If the end users don't read it it is their problem. They just make it our problem to because we have to repete ourselves time and again because they don't have enough brains to read the readme file with the software. On 6/15/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: Got a question for you. With all the lists your on and all the questions you see, and know the answers are in the help or doc's for the program. How many do you actually know that read them? I get throne off lists just for telling them to read help files and docs. Ignorance is bless and abundant in the blind community. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
They did that with Terraformers and you also have training levels in Microsoft Flight sim x. At 10:29 AM 6/15/2011, you wrote: Hi Trouble, That's something as a game developer I'm not sure how to handle. It is one thing to spend months of writing documentation only to have some user come on the list and ask hundreds of questions that can easily be answered by reading the manual. The mainstream games do have a bit of a solution for this problem by having training levels that talk you through the basics like walk forward, stop, now hold down alt+forward to jump forward, etc. That seems to work out fairly well for the mainstream games because it is more interactive than a manual. I wonder if perhaps that might be the way audio games should go as well. Either way there are things such as known problems, changes, or just side notes that have to be written down. If the end users don't read it it is their problem. They just make it our problem to because we have to repete ourselves time and again because they don't have enough brains to read the readme file with the software. On 6/15/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: Got a question for you. With all the lists your on and all the questions you see, and know the answers are in the help or doc's for the program. How many do you actually know that read them? I get throne off lists just for telling them to read help files and docs. Ignorance is bless and abundant in the blind community. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
I hear you there at least see all the email. hahahahah At 10:19 AM 6/15/2011, you wrote: Hi Trouble, Actually, I have a beta team. The only problem is that many of the people don't seem to give me enough feedback on the project. What I might want to do is redo or repick the members of the team as public betas definitely aren't working out. On 6/15/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage. What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team. Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's. That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not just throne at you. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Well if need some more input. i have at hand xp pro sp3, vista prem home sp2, win7 and mac book pro. I test things on them a lot just to see them crash and find out why. At 10:19 AM 6/15/2011, you wrote: Hi Trouble, Actually, I have a beta team. The only problem is that many of the people don't seem to give me enough feedback on the project. What I might want to do is redo or repick the members of the team as public betas definitely aren't working out. On 6/15/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: As long as its still in bait a. Your not in production stage. What you need to keep some of the flack down, is a bait a test team. Then you shouldn't be hit with such ignorance and bashing email's. That would also let you work on the issues as they come up and not just throne at you. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Although I have been gotten after for telling people to read the documentation because the answer is in there, I haven't been thrown off any lists for doing so, and I'll stand by what I say about the user's manuals. They're there for a purpose, and we should be using them. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 8:11 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Got a question for you. With all the lists your on and all the questions you see, and know the answers are in the help or doc's for the program. How many do you actually know that read them? I get throne off lists just for telling them to read help files and docs. Ignorance is bless and abundant in the blind community. At 08:51 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote: I still contend that a beta is just that. A trial version that is still under development. Anyone who doesn't know that will find out by, maybe, reading the documentation that comes with the game. If you state in the documentation, maybe on the download page and in the license?, that this is a beta, it still under development and is, therefore, not a final release, and that gamers are working with it at their own risk, and the gamer doesn't read it but does agree to it by using the software, it's their problem. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Philip, Well, I think you are right. The primary mistake I made with beta 19 was simply that I didn't explain to the end users that this was to be considered an experimental release only and not in anyway a full production release. Beta 18 was an official production release were beta 19 wasn't. Beta 19 was an experiment to see how well the cross-platform engine run on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 which I should have been up front about from the beginning. Plus I didn't say why I had removed joystick and mouse support, and people assumed the worst and thought that I was intending on taking it out of the final release when it was only intended for that specific release or build only. The thing is, and I wish I had made this clearer from the beginning, what we have is two different engines more or less in production at the same time. I've got the Windows specific version of the engine which is definitely production quality, has been in development for a couple of years, and is fairly stable. Then, we've got the cross-platform or Linux version of the engine that isn't yet production quality mainly because I haven't found something comparable to DirectX I can replace those components with. I've not actually converted the full Windows engine over to Linux yet so there are a lot of things that need doing like adding joystick support, for example, before it is 100% up to par for writing production quality games as is in evidence with beta 19. Plus I confess when it comes to writing applications for Linux I'm still largely in the dark about many of the libraries and APIs it uses. I've been writing both private and professional software for Windows for probably 10 years so when it comes to Windows core APIs and components I pretty much know what I'm doing so I can put together something pretty quickly and it will be pretty stable because of my past experience. With Linux if you tell me to write an application using one of the graphics toolkits like GTK+, QT, WX, etc I'm going to have to study up on it, write some experimental code, etc because I have no background experience working with those APIs. The only times I've been called upon to write a professional application for Linux such as a graphical front end for a MySQL database I wrote it in Java using the cross-platform Swing toolkit, and since Java is all pretty self-contained that doesn't count as practical experience for what i'm doing now with this cross-platform engine. So its all pretty much experimental code at this point as far as the cross-platform engine is concerned. I think the best thing to do right now is to finish MOTA using the Windows specific engine since it is production quality, get the game sold using that technology, and put off finishing the cross-platform engine until that is out of the way. That way when I say I've got an experimental release that might be cross-platform people aren't going to be as upset with me because if they don't like the experimental cross-platform version they can fallback on 1.0 which is stable and up to their personal standards. The lesson I've learned is this. First, be up front about my intentions, long term goals or plans, and people
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi, I seem to get snapped at all the time when I tell people to do that. There was some kind of TDV or MOTA related topic earlier this year tht Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Charles Rivard Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 9:15 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Although I have been gotten after for telling people to read the documentation because the answer is in there, I haven't been thrown off any lists for doing so, and I'll stand by what I say about the user's manuals. They're there for a purpose, and we should be using them. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 8:11 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Got a question for you. With all the lists your on and all the questions you see, and know the answers are in the help or doc's for the program. How many do you actually know that read them? I get throne off lists just for telling them to read help files and docs. Ignorance is bless and abundant in the blind community. At 08:51 PM 6/14/2011, you wrote: I still contend that a beta is just that. A trial version that is still under development. Anyone who doesn't know that will find out by, maybe, reading the documentation that comes with the game. If you state in the documentation, maybe on the download page and in the license?, that this is a beta, it still under development and is, therefore, not a final release, and that gamers are working with it at their own risk, and the gamer doesn't read it but does agree to it by using the software, it's their problem. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Philip, Well, I think you are right. The primary mistake I made with beta 19 was simply that I didn't explain to the end users that this was to be considered an experimental release only and not in anyway a full production release. Beta 18 was an official production release were beta 19 wasn't. Beta 19 was an experiment to see how well the cross-platform engine run on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 which I should have been up front about from the beginning. Plus I didn't say why I had removed joystick and mouse support, and people assumed the worst and thought that I was intending on taking it out of the final release when it was only intended for that specific release or build only. The thing is, and I wish I had made this clearer from the beginning, what we have is two different engines more or less in production at the same time. I've got the Windows specific version of the engine which is definitely production quality, has been in development for a couple of years, and is fairly stable. Then, we've got the cross-platform or Linux version of the engine that isn't yet production quality mainly because I haven't found something comparable to DirectX I can replace those components with. I've not actually converted the full Windows engine over to Linux yet so there are a lot of things that need doing like adding joystick support, for example, before it is 100% up to par for writing production quality games as is in evidence with beta 19. Plus I confess when it comes to writing applications for Linux I'm still largely in the dark about many of the libraries and APIs it uses. I've been writing both private and professional software for Windows for probably 10 years so when it comes to Windows core APIs and components I pretty much know what I'm doing so I can put together something pretty quickly and it will be pretty stable because of my past experience. With Linux if you tell me to write an application using one of the graphics toolkits like GTK+, QT, WX, etc I'm going to have to study up on it, write some experimental code, etc because I have no background experience working with those APIs. The only times I've been called upon to write a professional application for Linux such as a graphical front end for a MySQL database I wrote it in Java using the cross-platform Swing toolkit, and since Java is all pretty self-contained that doesn't count as practical experience for what i'm doing now with this cross-platform engine. So its all pretty much experimental code at this point as far as the cross-platform engine is concerned. I think the best thing to do right now is to finish MOTA using the Windows specific engine since it is production quality, get the game sold using that technology, and put off finishing the cross-platform engine until that is out
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
That is just it a rep. Don't think that will go far in the blind community. Because, they don't care, Oh, they say they do and at many time actually do. However, when it comes to games. Your dealing with very http://www.google.com/hws//hws/search?br=client=dell-usukchannel=us-pspsafe=highadsafe=highhl=enie=UTF-8oe=UTF-8q=viciousvicious people that strikeout at will. Just look at what was done when they found out Tom had to stop and rewrite, because someone nailed him for a copy right. Yes, I think someone turned him in, because hardly anyone sighted bothers with this list. Also I do know blind people that will go that mile just to see something destroyed. I went to the site Tom gave that hit him. It was there and a joke if you ask, but still the same had a claim to the game. Surprising! Tom had his rep with previous games that were already out. So if anyone doubts, there lose. At 08:33 PM 6/13/2011, you wrote: The reputation it should give him is one of taking the time and continually making the effort to get it right. The key word here is should. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Trouble, While I definitely agree up to a point, I think we'd have a whole lot more griping and complaining if this thing wasn't released until Christmas. Even if the primary focus of Thomas himself, I can't say what kind of reputation that would give him.Best Regards, Hayden -- From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 7:47 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support If you want to support other platforms with your games that is your business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the work of the game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is going to be time delays and drag outs with problems. I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for and that is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time periods good and if not then would only give out updates until a releasable demo is at hand. Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable demos are for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs are fixed you release again. Each time brings you closer to Finnish. By adding things to each release. Gives you nothing or very little to release in updates or next version. You have to keep some goodies back for just that reason. It also causes bugs witch delays the final release that much more. At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote: Hi Pitr, That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing these games in the first place? Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in writing them in the first place. As for the second question, I started writing games because at the time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit. In fact, I'd go far to say I hate writing games, because the experience has become so much of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the community wants me to write it another. For you its easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that what you want me to do? In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me cunstructive advice how to do that you are just muddying the thread with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it. Cheers! On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote: The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into consideration. I
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
I don't have a problem with the current sound system, I would say if you needed to convert it to something else later, but I understand that would create a lot of work. Thanks, Mike --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Trouble and all, Well, I think alot of it comes down to a lack of patients and a complete lack of understanding where developers and development is concerned. Many of the people quick to point fingers, quick to make judgments, etc have no personal experience with any kind of long term project. Which programming games is a long term project and commitment that requires time, skill, and experience to bring to completion. Therefore they have unrealistic expectations about how and when the project should be completed, and even jump to the wrong conclusion when things aren't going the way the expect them too. For instance, when I decided to compile beta 19 using the cross-platform Genesis engine I knew joystick support and mouse support wasn't fully operational yet so I removed them from the settings menu, and I also knew that the audio panning was way off. I only intended these to be temporary issues, problems, and my purpose of testing beta 19 was to find out if the basic engine was sound, would run on a number of Linux and Windows PCs, and after I found that out I'd go back in and fix the joystick support, mouse support, and see what if anything I could do about the audio later. My soul purpose was to find out if the basic engine ran ok on a number of Windows PCs and Linux PCs. However, the community at large didn't understand what I was doing. Right off I got a lot of e-mails on and off list saying that the beta sucked. There was no joystick support, no mouse support, and the panning was terrible. If creating cross-platform games was going to be like this one they weren't going to buy the game etc. In other words they expected this release to be as good as or better than beta 18 and didn't understand I was going to address those issues in future betas. For the moment all I wanted to know from them is how well did the game work besides the audio and missing game controller support. Apparently it must have worked ok, because the only complaints I got were the obvious ones I knew about. Basically, my point in saying this is that if these people were more use to the way developers really worked, perhaps test software on a regular basis, they wouldn't be as judgmental. I've tested Linux open source applications where the developer says, try this and let me know how it works, and sometimes it fixes something and sometimes it breaks something in the process, and the developer has to find out why it broke and fix it. For instance, we have a similar issue right now on Linux with the new Gnome 3.0 desktop. When the Gnome developers moved from the 2.x branch to the 3.0 branch they made a lot of changes that ended up breaking some accessibility with Orca and AT-SPI in the process. The only way the Gnome developers are going to be able to resolve it is by having Orca users test it, find out what broke, report those bugs, and the developers will address and fix all of those issues in the Gnome 3.2 version. Sometimes its a case of take two steps foward and one step back. I.E. development by trial and error. Cheers! On 6/14/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: That is just it a rep. Don't think that will go far in the blind community. Because, they don't care, Oh, they say they do and at many time actually do. However, when it comes to games. Your dealing with very http://www.google.com/hws//hws/search?br=client=dell-usukchannel=us-pspsafe=highadsafe=highhl=enie=UTF-8oe=UTF-8q=viciousvicious people that strikeout at will. Just look at what was done when they found out Tom had to stop and rewrite, because someone nailed him for a copy right. Yes, I think someone turned him in, because hardly anyone sighted bothers with this list. Also I do know blind people that will go that mile just to see something destroyed. I went to the site Tom gave that hit him. It was there and a joke if you ask, but still the same had a claim to the game. Surprising! Tom had his rep with previous games that were already out. So if anyone doubts, there lose. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Thomas, I wanted to offer my two cents here, in case the feedback may be useful to you in some way. I think the reaction you got was very much to be expected since, at least to me, your intentions were not too clear. All that people really knew was that there was a new cross platform beta, and that a bunch of features were removed or degraded in performance. I think if you had posted the message that you just sent now, along with the actual beta announcement, things would have been a lot clearer. You could even have called it an experimental alpha, which would have stressed the fact that this was not production code but rather a testing ground even more strongly. This is also why I don't release public betas myself, because I don't want to communicate with the community at large while I am doing tests on bleeding edge code that may or may not perform as people expect. With a smaller group of testers you can make things a lot more obvious, what you want them to test and what issues are known etc. With a fully fledged community tested project as Mota has very nearly become, you'll always run into issues like this. Especially since the cross platform endeavour, while naturally important to you personally, is not something that a lot of purely Windows folks will have use for and thus will not really take into consideration when judging your software. This, at any rate, is my feeling for games. BGT was totally different since it was a lot more modular, rather than one specific story so to speak. There the public testing really worked wonders, but I would not do the same for a game. This is not to say that community testing of games is always bad. Far from it. With Entombed, for instance, I think it worked rather well. But when a developer decides to do it they naturally have to consider if it is worth the extra work that it takes to keep everyone up to speed with what needs to be tested in this particular release, what known problems there are, etc etc. As always, these are just my own personal views. I'm interested to hear your thoughts. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Trouble and all, Well, I think alot of it comes down to a lack of patients and a complete lack of understanding where developers and development is concerned. Many of the people quick to point fingers, quick to make judgments, etc have no personal experience with any kind of long term project. Which programming games is a long term project and commitment that requires time, skill, and experience to bring to completion. Therefore they have unrealistic expectations about how and when the project should be completed, and even jump to the wrong conclusion when things aren't going the way the expect them too. For instance, when I decided to compile beta 19 using the cross-platform Genesis engine I knew joystick support and mouse support wasn't fully operational yet so I removed them from the settings menu, and I also knew that the audio panning was way off. I only intended these to be temporary issues, problems, and my purpose of testing beta 19 was to find out if the basic engine was sound, would run on a number of Linux and Windows PCs, and after I found that out I'd go back in and fix the joystick support, mouse support, and see what if anything I could do about the audio later. My soul purpose was to find out if the basic engine ran ok on a number of Windows PCs and Linux PCs. However, the community at large didn't understand what I was doing. Right off I got a lot of e-mails on and off list saying that the beta sucked. There was no joystick support, no mouse support, and the panning was terrible. If creating cross-platform games was going to be like this one they weren't going to buy the game etc. In other words they expected this release to be as good as or better than beta 18 and didn't understand I was going to address those issues in future betas. For the moment all I wanted to know from them is how well did the game work besides the audio and missing game controller support. Apparently it must have worked ok, because the only complaints I got were the obvious ones I knew about. Basically, my point in saying this is that if these people were more use to the way developers really worked, perhaps test software on a regular basis, they wouldn't be as judgmental. I've tested Linux open source applications where the developer says, try this and let me know how it works, and sometimes it fixes something and sometimes it breaks something in the process, and the developer has to find out why it broke and fix it. For instance, we have a similar issue right now on Linux with the new Gnome 3.0 desktop. When the Gnome developers moved from the 2.x branch to the 3.0 branch they made a lot of changes
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Developing games takes logic and planning. Playing the games does not. I've never figured out why people think that a beta of a game is the finished product. If something is wrong with a beta, the same problem will exist in the marketed game. It just doesn't make any sense. --- Shepherds are the best beasts! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Trouble and all, Well, I think alot of it comes down to a lack of patients and a complete lack of understanding where developers and development is concerned. Many of the people quick to point fingers, quick to make judgments, etc have no personal experience with any kind of long term project. Which programming games is a long term project and commitment that requires time, skill, and experience to bring to completion. Therefore they have unrealistic expectations about how and when the project should be completed, and even jump to the wrong conclusion when things aren't going the way the expect them too. For instance, when I decided to compile beta 19 using the cross-platform Genesis engine I knew joystick support and mouse support wasn't fully operational yet so I removed them from the settings menu, and I also knew that the audio panning was way off. I only intended these to be temporary issues, problems, and my purpose of testing beta 19 was to find out if the basic engine was sound, would run on a number of Linux and Windows PCs, and after I found that out I'd go back in and fix the joystick support, mouse support, and see what if anything I could do about the audio later. My soul purpose was to find out if the basic engine ran ok on a number of Windows PCs and Linux PCs. However, the community at large didn't understand what I was doing. Right off I got a lot of e-mails on and off list saying that the beta sucked. There was no joystick support, no mouse support, and the panning was terrible. If creating cross-platform games was going to be like this one they weren't going to buy the game etc. In other words they expected this release to be as good as or better than beta 18 and didn't understand I was going to address those issues in future betas. For the moment all I wanted to know from them is how well did the game work besides the audio and missing game controller support. Apparently it must have worked ok, because the only complaints I got were the obvious ones I knew about. Basically, my point in saying this is that if these people were more use to the way developers really worked, perhaps test software on a regular basis, they wouldn't be as judgmental. I've tested Linux open source applications where the developer says, try this and let me know how it works, and sometimes it fixes something and sometimes it breaks something in the process, and the developer has to find out why it broke and fix it. For instance, we have a similar issue right now on Linux with the new Gnome 3.0 desktop. When the Gnome developers moved from the 2.x branch to the 3.0 branch they made a lot of changes that ended up breaking some accessibility with Orca and AT-SPI in the process. The only way the Gnome developers are going to be able to resolve it is by having Orca users test it, find out what broke, report those bugs, and the developers will address and fix all of those issues in the Gnome 3.2 version. Sometimes its a case of take two steps foward and one step back. I.E. development by trial and error. Cheers! On 6/14/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: That is just it a rep. Don't think that will go far in the blind community. Because, they don't care, Oh, they say they do and at many time actually do. However, when it comes to games. Your dealing with very http://www.google.com/hws//hws/search?br=client=dell-usukchannel=us-pspsafe=highadsafe=highhl=enie=UTF-8oe=UTF-8q=viciousvicious people that strikeout at will. Just look at what was done when they found out Tom had to stop and rewrite, because someone nailed him for a copy right. Yes, I think someone turned him in, because hardly anyone sighted bothers with this list. Also I do know blind people that will go that mile just to see something destroyed. I went to the site Tom gave that hit him. It was there and a joke if you ask, but still the same had a claim to the game. Surprising! Tom had his rep with previous games that were already out. So if anyone doubts, there lose. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Philip, Well, I think you are right. The primary mistake I made with beta 19 was simply that I didn't explain to the end users that this was to be considered an experimental release only and not in anyway a full production release. Beta 18 was an official production release were beta 19 wasn't. Beta 19 was an experiment to see how well the cross-platform engine run on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 which I should have been up front about from the beginning. Plus I didn't say why I had removed joystick and mouse support, and people assumed the worst and thought that I was intending on taking it out of the final release when it was only intended for that specific release or build only. The thing is, and I wish I had made this clearer from the beginning, what we have is two different engines more or less in production at the same time. I've got the Windows specific version of the engine which is definitely production quality, has been in development for a couple of years, and is fairly stable. Then, we've got the cross-platform or Linux version of the engine that isn't yet production quality mainly because I haven't found something comparable to DirectX I can replace those components with. I've not actually converted the full Windows engine over to Linux yet so there are a lot of things that need doing like adding joystick support, for example, before it is 100% up to par for writing production quality games as is in evidence with beta 19. Plus I confess when it comes to writing applications for Linux I'm still largely in the dark about many of the libraries and APIs it uses. I've been writing both private and professional software for Windows for probably 10 years so when it comes to Windows core APIs and components I pretty much know what I'm doing so I can put together something pretty quickly and it will be pretty stable because of my past experience. With Linux if you tell me to write an application using one of the graphics toolkits like GTK+, QT, WX, etc I'm going to have to study up on it, write some experimental code, etc because I have no background experience working with those APIs. The only times I've been called upon to write a professional application for Linux such as a graphical front end for a MySQL database I wrote it in Java using the cross-platform Swing toolkit, and since Java is all pretty self-contained that doesn't count as practical experience for what i'm doing now with this cross-platform engine. So its all pretty much experimental code at this point as far as the cross-platform engine is concerned. I think the best thing to do right now is to finish MOTA using the Windows specific engine since it is production quality, get the game sold using that technology, and put off finishing the cross-platform engine until that is out of the way. That way when I say I've got an experimental release that might be cross-platform people aren't going to be as upset with me because if they don't like the experimental cross-platform version they can fallback on 1.0 which is stable and up to their personal standards. The lesson I've learned is this. First, be up front about my intentions, long term goals or plans, and people will understand what I'm after. Second, attach, if possible, a buglog.txt file to the release so people will be informed what problems are in the release and what is on the todo list for the next upgrade. Third, don't try and remove a bunch of features after you just released them in a prior release as some people aren't going to respond well to bleeding edge code regardless of how temporary the removal might or might not be. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Thomas, I agree with all of your points 100 %. Get the Windows version out the door, make some actual cash, and spend the money making a great cross platform engine. Best of luck! Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 10:55 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Philip, Well, I think you are right. The primary mistake I made with beta 19 was simply that I didn't explain to the end users that this was to be considered an experimental release only and not in anyway a full production release. Beta 18 was an official production release were beta 19 wasn't. Beta 19 was an experiment to see how well the cross-platform engine run on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 which I should have been up front about from the beginning. Plus I didn't say why I had removed joystick and mouse support, and people assumed the worst and thought that I was intending on taking it out of the final release when it was only intended for that specific release or build only. The thing is, and I wish I had made this clearer from the beginning, what we have is two different engines more or less in production at the same time. I've got the Windows specific version of the engine which is definitely production quality, has been in development for a couple of years, and is fairly stable. Then, we've got the cross-platform or Linux version of the engine that isn't yet production quality mainly because I haven't found something comparable to DirectX I can replace those components with. I've not actually converted the full Windows engine over to Linux yet so there are a lot of things that need doing like adding joystick support, for example, before it is 100% up to par for writing production quality games as is in evidence with beta 19. Plus I confess when it comes to writing applications for Linux I'm still largely in the dark about many of the libraries and APIs it uses. I've been writing both private and professional software for Windows for probably 10 years so when it comes to Windows core APIs and components I pretty much know what I'm doing so I can put together something pretty quickly and it will be pretty stable because of my past experience. With Linux if you tell me to write an application using one of the graphics toolkits like GTK+, QT, WX, etc I'm going to have to study up on it, write some experimental code, etc because I have no background experience working with those APIs. The only times I've been called upon to write a professional application for Linux such as a graphical front end for a MySQL database I wrote it in Java using the cross-platform Swing toolkit, and since Java is all pretty self-contained that doesn't count as practical experience for what i'm doing now with this cross-platform engine. So its all pretty much experimental code at this point as far as the cross-platform engine is concerned. I think the best thing to do right now is to finish MOTA using the Windows specific engine since it is production quality, get the game sold using that technology, and put off finishing the cross-platform engine until that is out of the way. That way when I say I've got an experimental release that might be cross-platform people aren't going to be as upset with me because if they don't like the experimental cross-platform version they can fallback on 1.0 which is stable and up to their personal standards. The lesson I've learned is this. First, be up front about my intentions, long term goals or plans, and people will understand what I'm after. Second, attach, if possible, a buglog.txt file to the release so people will be informed what problems are in the release and what is on the todo list for the next upgrade. Third, don't try and remove a bunch of features after you just released them in a prior release as some people aren't going to respond well to bleeding edge code regardless of how temporary the removal might or might not be. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Thomas, I suspect the main problem is the number 19. If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think fewer people would have complained. Smiles, Phil - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Charles, I think the answer lies in the fact most people are only concerned with playing the game rather than testing it. With beta 19 I released a version based on bleeding edge experimental code and that didn't go over too well as it wasn't one of my more polished production releases like beta 18. So when I was looking for the community to actually do some testing what I got were complaints dealing with the fact they couldn't play it because the audio was crappy, no joystick support, mouse support, etc when I wasn't expecting them to treat it as a production release but a test release only. My attempts backfired because it wasn't really a playable demo based on stable production code. So when it turned out not to be a stable polished demo they could play without problems they complained loudly. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Phil, I suppose you are right. Calling it beta 19, as in following beta 18, wasn't the best move as beta 19 wasn't exactly a production release and more of an experimental release as I have said. Next time I feel inclined to test something like that I'll clearly indicate this release is not to be confused with the current production releases. Cheers! On 6/14/11, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote: Hi Thomas, I suspect the main problem is the number 19. If you had called it MOTA cross platform beta 1, then I think fewer people would have complained. Smiles, Phil --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
I still contend that a beta is just that. A trial version that is still under development. Anyone who doesn't know that will find out by, maybe, reading the documentation that comes with the game. If you state in the documentation, maybe on the download page and in the license?, that this is a beta, it still under development and is, therefore, not a final release, and that gamers are working with it at their own risk, and the gamer doesn't read it but does agree to it by using the software, it's their problem. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2011 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Philip, Well, I think you are right. The primary mistake I made with beta 19 was simply that I didn't explain to the end users that this was to be considered an experimental release only and not in anyway a full production release. Beta 18 was an official production release were beta 19 wasn't. Beta 19 was an experiment to see how well the cross-platform engine run on Windows XP, Vista, and Windows 7 which I should have been up front about from the beginning. Plus I didn't say why I had removed joystick and mouse support, and people assumed the worst and thought that I was intending on taking it out of the final release when it was only intended for that specific release or build only. The thing is, and I wish I had made this clearer from the beginning, what we have is two different engines more or less in production at the same time. I've got the Windows specific version of the engine which is definitely production quality, has been in development for a couple of years, and is fairly stable. Then, we've got the cross-platform or Linux version of the engine that isn't yet production quality mainly because I haven't found something comparable to DirectX I can replace those components with. I've not actually converted the full Windows engine over to Linux yet so there are a lot of things that need doing like adding joystick support, for example, before it is 100% up to par for writing production quality games as is in evidence with beta 19. Plus I confess when it comes to writing applications for Linux I'm still largely in the dark about many of the libraries and APIs it uses. I've been writing both private and professional software for Windows for probably 10 years so when it comes to Windows core APIs and components I pretty much know what I'm doing so I can put together something pretty quickly and it will be pretty stable because of my past experience. With Linux if you tell me to write an application using one of the graphics toolkits like GTK+, QT, WX, etc I'm going to have to study up on it, write some experimental code, etc because I have no background experience working with those APIs. The only times I've been called upon to write a professional application for Linux such as a graphical front end for a MySQL database I wrote it in Java using the cross-platform Swing toolkit, and since Java is all pretty self-contained that doesn't count as practical experience for what i'm doing now with this cross-platform engine. So its all pretty much experimental code at this point as far as the cross-platform engine is concerned. I think the best thing to do right now is to finish MOTA using the Windows specific engine since it is production quality, get the game sold using that technology, and put off finishing the cross-platform engine until that is out of the way. That way when I say I've got an experimental release that might be cross-platform people aren't going to be as upset with me because if they don't like the experimental cross-platform version they can fallback on 1.0 which is stable and up to their personal standards. The lesson I've learned is this. First, be up front about my intentions, long term goals or plans, and people will understand what I'm after. Second, attach, if possible, a buglog.txt file to the release so people will be informed what problems are in the release and what is on the todo list for the next upgrade. Third, don't try and remove a bunch of features after you just released them in a prior release as some people aren't going to respond well to bleeding edge code regardless of how temporary the removal might or might not be. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Shaun, If you are talking about the vanishing platforms that's the point. They are meant to be challenging, difficult, and I think once I recompile beta 20 against the Windows version of the G3D engine they'll be fairly trick as they were in beta 18. I think traps like that will have great replay value as there is no certainty there you will make it through on your first run. Cheers! On 6/12/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well there is also that long platform or long platforms in gneral I don't like them that much. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
If you want to support other platforms with your games that is your business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the work of the game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is going to be time delays and drag outs with problems. I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for and that is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time periods good and if not then would only give out updates until a releasable demo is at hand. Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable demos are for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs are fixed you release again. Each time brings you closer to Finnish. By adding things to each release. Gives you nothing or very little to release in updates or next version. You have to keep some goodies back for just that reason. It also causes bugs witch delays the final release that much more. At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote: Hi Pitr, That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing these games in the first place? Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in writing them in the first place. As for the second question, I started writing games because at the time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit. In fact, I'd go far to say I hate writing games, because the experience has become so much of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the community wants me to write it another. For you its easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that what you want me to do? In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me cunstructive advice how to do that you are just muddying the thread with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it. Cheers! On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote: The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into consideration. I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other platforms, since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I don't get why worry about a handful of people... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Well I see silent partner? Think not knowing Tom. When you get a game company. Then you can make those choices. At 04:38 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote: The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into consideration. I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other platforms, since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I don't get why worry about a handful of people... - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 10:27 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Charles, Yeah, I certainly understand that. I know that the audio, joystick support, etc was much better in the Windows version of the G3D Engine, and I even agree beta 19 seems like a step backward instead of forward. The problem is that I want and need a completely cross-platform solution that basically does what DirectX does that will allow me to build high quality games for my OS, Linux, and still be able to produce Windows versions for my customers as well. That said, if Allegro doesn't pan out I'm just going to have to compile a Windows specific version of MOTA for Windows, and forget it. I'll be unhappy about having to maintain a version for an OS I no longer use, but my customers will be happy at any rate. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Trouble, While I definitely agree up to a point, I think we'd have a whole lot more griping and complaining if this thing wasn't released until Christmas. Even if the primary focus of Thomas himself, I can't say what kind of reputation that would give him.Best Regards, Hayden -- From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 7:47 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support If you want to support other platforms with your games that is your business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the work of the game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is going to be time delays and drag outs with problems. I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for and that is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time periods good and if not then would only give out updates until a releasable demo is at hand. Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable demos are for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs are fixed you release again. Each time brings you closer to Finnish. By adding things to each release. Gives you nothing or very little to release in updates or next version. You have to keep some goodies back for just that reason. It also causes bugs witch delays the final release that much more. At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote: Hi Pitr, That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing these games in the first place? Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in writing them in the first place. As for the second question, I started writing games because at the time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit. In fact, I'd go far to say I hate writing games, because the experience has become so much of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the community wants me to write it another. For you its easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that what you want me to do? In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me cunstructive advice how to do that you are just muddying the thread with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it. Cheers! On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote: The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into consideration. I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other platforms, since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I don't get why worry about a handful of people... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Shaun, Funny you don't like that onethat's probably my favorite little obstacle in the game. Best Regards, Hayden -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 2:35 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Shaun, If you are talking about the vanishing platforms that's the point. They are meant to be challenging, difficult, and I think once I recompile beta 20 against the Windows version of the G3D engine they'll be fairly trick as they were in beta 18. I think traps like that will have great replay value as there is no certainty there you will make it through on your first run. Cheers! On 6/12/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well there is also that long platform or long platforms in gneral I don't like them that much. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Trouble, Right. That was esentially my point. I'm the one doing the work so should have the final say on weather the game is or is not cross-platform, what APIs, etc I use etc. However, getting a feel for what the community thinks will help sell the game when it is finally finished. I'm all for making changes if I see the change is a valid or necessary one. Which is clearly the case here. What I am probably going to do for MOTA beta 20 is simply recompile the game against the Windows/DirectX version of the engine which should satisfy everyone for Windows as they will have DirectSound, analog jumping, joystick support, mouse support, etc and hopefully they'll be satisfied with that. I'm willing to take the extra time to do that as I know it will likely increase sales as the core of the game will be based on Windows specific APIs proven to work. At the same time though I can branch out and perhaps work on a Linux specific engine using Linux specific APIs that so I can create versions of the game I can play and other Linux users like myself. That's a fair compromise if a bit more time and work. Cheers! On 6/13/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: If you want to support other platforms with your games that is your business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the work of the game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is going to be time delays and drag outs with problems. I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for and that is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time periods good and if not then would only give out updates until a releasable demo is at hand. Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable demos are for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs are fixed you release again. Each time brings you closer to Finnish. By adding things to each release. Gives you nothing or very little to release in updates or next version. You have to keep some goodies back for just that reason. It also causes bugs witch delays the final release that much more. At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote: Hi Pitr, That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing these games in the first place? Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in writing them in the first place. As for the second question, I started writing games because at the time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit. In fact, I'd go far to say I hate writing games, because the experience has become so much of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the community wants me to write it another. For you its easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that what you want me to do? In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me cunstructive advice how to do that you are just muddying the thread with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it. Cheers! On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote: The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into consideration. I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other platforms, since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I don't get why worry about a handful of people... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Just remember that it might sound fair. but, when it comes to doing it your right back to hard work and time. You do have a few things going for you. There is a playable demo and you do keep sending out updates. At 10:22 AM 6/13/2011, you wrote: Hi Trouble, Right. That was esentially my point. I'm the one doing the work so should have the final say on weather the game is or is not cross-platform, what APIs, etc I use etc. However, getting a feel for what the community thinks will help sell the game when it is finally finished. I'm all for making changes if I see the change is a valid or necessary one. Which is clearly the case here. What I am probably going to do for MOTA beta 20 is simply recompile the game against the Windows/DirectX version of the engine which should satisfy everyone for Windows as they will have DirectSound, analog jumping, joystick support, mouse support, etc and hopefully they'll be satisfied with that. I'm willing to take the extra time to do that as I know it will likely increase sales as the core of the game will be based on Windows specific APIs proven to work. At the same time though I can branch out and perhaps work on a Linux specific engine using Linux specific APIs that so I can create versions of the game I can play and other Linux users like myself. That's a fair compromise if a bit more time and work. Cheers! On 6/13/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: If you want to support other platforms with your games that is your business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the work of the game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is going to be time delays and drag outs with problems. I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for and that is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time periods good and if not then would only give out updates until a releasable demo is at hand. Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable demos are for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs are fixed you release again. Each time brings you closer to Finnish. By adding things to each release. Gives you nothing or very little to release in updates or next version. You have to keep some goodies back for just that reason. It also causes bugs witch delays the final release that much more. At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote: Hi Pitr, That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing these games in the first place? Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in writing them in the first place. As for the second question, I started writing games because at the time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit. In fact, I'd go far to say I hate writing games, because the experience has become so much of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the community wants me to write it another. For you its easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that what you want me to do? In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me cunstructive advice how to do that you are just muddying the thread with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it. Cheers! On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote: The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into consideration. I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other platforms, since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I don't get why worry about a handful of people... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Trouble, Very true. However, probably the best way to handle this is A, release a version for Windows, B, settle up the various preorders with the early customers of the game, and C, then spend time working on a cross-platform version. That way I am working on the cross-platform port on my free time, and not dragging the release up that people paid for on research, experimentation, testing, and development. I'm pretty sure there is a sutable cross-platform solution here, but I just don't have the time to find it yet. For instance, SDL Mixer has decent panning, and that would resolve the complaints people have regarding the way sounds are panned. Unfortunately, on the down side it doesn't offer pitch changes, as well as a number of DSP effects like a low pass filter, etc. So while it resolves one problem it introduces others in the process. Another solution worth considering, and I actually looked at one time, is building the Genesis Engine in Java. Since the Java JDK is completely cross-platform creating games that run on Mac, Linux, and Windows definitely isn't a big deal. Java developers do it all the time. The primary reason I didn't do that a year or two ago is the builtin Java Sound API supports panning, pitch changes, master volume, etc but doesn't have 3d audio. For that I'd have to use the Joal wrapper for OpenAL so decided against it. In hindsight that might have been the better way to go since the test apps I wrote in Java panned just as well as DirectX, and this issue of trying to find a C++library that sounds like DirectSound could have been avoided from the start, and saved myself a lot of work in the bargon as well. My point being is that whatever that solution is I need to first get MOTA 1.0 out the door, settle my accounts, and then I can look at all my options and maybe find something I can settle on that does exactly what I want/need it to do. Cheers! On 6/13/11, Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com wrote: Just remember that it might sound fair. but, when it comes to doing it your right back to hard work and time. You do have a few things going for you. There is a playable demo and you do keep sending out updates. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
The reputation it should give him is one of taking the time and continually making the effort to get it right. The key word here is should. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Trouble, While I definitely agree up to a point, I think we'd have a whole lot more griping and complaining if this thing wasn't released until Christmas. Even if the primary focus of Thomas himself, I can't say what kind of reputation that would give him.Best Regards, Hayden -- From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 7:47 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support If you want to support other platforms with your games that is your business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the work of the game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is going to be time delays and drag outs with problems. I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for and that is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time periods good and if not then would only give out updates until a releasable demo is at hand. Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable demos are for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs are fixed you release again. Each time brings you closer to Finnish. By adding things to each release. Gives you nothing or very little to release in updates or next version. You have to keep some goodies back for just that reason. It also causes bugs witch delays the final release that much more. At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote: Hi Pitr, That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing these games in the first place? Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in writing them in the first place. As for the second question, I started writing games because at the time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit. In fact, I'd go far to say I hate writing games, because the experience has become so much of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the community wants me to write it another. For you its easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that what you want me to do? In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me cunstructive advice how to do that you are just muddying the thread with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it. Cheers! On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote: The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into consideration. I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other platforms, since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I don't get why worry about a handful of people... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
hmmm maybe its because I have not got it yet. I like the spikes myself, you really have to concerntrate and if you nit them, well. At 01:14 a.m. 14/06/2011, you wrote: Hi Shaun, Funny you don't like that onethat's probably my favorite little obstacle in the game. Best Regards, Hayden -- From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 2:35 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Shaun, If you are talking about the vanishing platforms that's the point. They are meant to be challenging, difficult, and I think once I recompile beta 20 against the Windows version of the G3D engine they'll be fairly trick as they were in beta 18. I think traps like that will have great replay value as there is no certainty there you will make it through on your first run. Cheers! On 6/12/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well there is also that long platform or long platforms in gneral I don't like them that much. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
well one of the things we learned is to not set release dates for anything at all. In fact i have just been reading the greymatterproductions blog and there are loads of examples why release dates unless you are sure you can get there are not a good idea. At 12:33 p.m. 14/06/2011, you wrote: The reputation it should give him is one of taking the time and continually making the effort to get it right. The key word here is should. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 8:06 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Trouble, While I definitely agree up to a point, I think we'd have a whole lot more griping and complaining if this thing wasn't released until Christmas. Even if the primary focus of Thomas himself, I can't say what kind of reputation that would give him.Best Regards, Hayden -- From: Trouble troub...@columbus.rr.com Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 7:47 AM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support If you want to support other platforms with your games that is your business.Getting ideas from the community is good. But the work of the game is done by you and only you. So yeah there is going to be time delays and drag outs with problems. I think there are only 2 targets any game producer should try for and that is summer and Christmas. If they come in those to time periods good and if not then would only give out updates until a releasable demo is at hand. Don't let them tell you how to code or what to code. Releasable demos are for finding bugs and that is all they do. When the bugs are fixed you release again. Each time brings you closer to Finnish. By adding things to each release. Gives you nothing or very little to release in updates or next version. You have to keep some goodies back for just that reason. It also causes bugs witch delays the final release that much more. At 05:28 PM 6/12/2011, you wrote: Hi Pitr, That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing these games in the first place? Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in writing them in the first place. As for the second question, I started writing games because at the time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit. In fact, I'd go far to say I hate writing games, because the experience has become so much of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the community wants me to write it another. For you its easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that what you want me to do? In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me cunstructive advice how to do that you are just muddying the thread with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it. Cheers! On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote: The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into consideration. I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other platforms, since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I don't get why worry about a handful of people... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Thomas, Have a look at http://www.allegro.cc/. In Allegro 5, they have completely rewritten the sound API and it is now extremely versatile, powerful and, of course, cross platform. It has pan, volume, pitch etc but unfortunately no 3d. It allows you to customize things a great deal, however, such as adding your own format reader/writer interfaces. They have precompiled static and dynamic import libraries, but I ended up building from source. I compiled it on Windows with a lot of the core stripped out such as Direct 3d and OpenGl, which brought the size and list of dependencies down considerably. This is what I will use if I do end up making a cross platform version of BGT. Allegro also has support for mice, joysticks, and soon also touch input which is useful for the IPhone port that they're doing. Hope this helps. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 7:38 PM Subject: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi all, As the subject states I'm looking for some feedback regarding the audio support in Mysteries of the Ancients beta 19 as this seems to be a point of contention for a number of Windows users. I know that many of you are part and partial to Microsoft DirectSound, and some of you have out right called the new FMOD Ex support aweful, crap, etc. At this point I'm not sure how to resolve this issue for yu guys as I am still pretty knew to FMOD and I'm trying to convert the way FMOD Ex pans audio to something that emulates or sounds like DirectSound. In that I have not been too successful to date. However, that does not mean we are out of options. Just that the solutions here are not that apealing right now. The first and simplest solution is to accept the way things are. As for me personally the way FMOD pans sounds isn't a big deal. It doesn't bother me, and sounds good enough. However, I realize from the on and off list messages on this topic many of you don't like it at all. The alternative solution would be to split the Genesis engine into two different engines. One built specifically for Windows users and one specifically built for Linux users. This has both pros and cons that need to be weighed carefully. The up side of building two specific engines for each platform is that I could make use of native APIs for each platform. On Windows I could use DirectInput, DirectSound, the Win32 API, MS Sapi, etc where on the linux side it would use LibSDL, OpenAL-Soft, Speech-Dispatcher, and so on. That sounds good in theory, but is nothing short of a nightmare to manage. The down side is in many of the cases comparing APIs is like comparing apples and oranges. I'll have to write various wrappers to convert things back and forth between APIs so the game code will compile on either engine without a great deal of modification on my part. That will take considerable time to add and will delay the release of games like MOTA even further even more than it already is. Which is not something I look forward to doing at this point in the development process. The final option or solution I can see here is not necessarily to make two different game engines, but take some time away from MOTA, Raceway, etc to write a custom sound API for the G3D engine. It might wrap DirectSound or XAudio2 on the Windows side, and wrap OpenAL on the Linux side. This seems to me to be the right solution, but would take a good couple months or more to develope as I'd have to wrap two different sound APIs and then expose them to the G3D engine through a single universl API the way Streemway wraps DirectSound and XAudio2 for the BGT engine. In either case it is important that I get this issue sorted out pretty soon as licensing FMOD Ex will take about a third of my expected income from sales, and I don't want to really do that if end users are really that unhappy with it that I might loose sales or it will detract from the games I write using the Genesis 3D engine. I'm not sure what to do here as FMOD Ex has a good reputation, has a lot of advanced features that blows DirectX away, but I'm unable to figure out how to get it to pan the way DirectSound does which is why people are complaining about it. If there is a cheaper solution we can all agree upon then I'm willing to give it a try. Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Weel, the most funny thing here is fact, the game is developed from a few years and we have nothing, and what is really incredibly interesting, you haven't nothing. Think about me what you want, not my case, but it's true, little offtopic, but when i read tons of messages from you regarding your products it is more and more fun. Wrestling game, MOTA, star wars AKA MOTA clone, etc etc etc You can't concentrate on anything at all, so you are doing something and nothing. You want to support Win, linux, mac, and in results you have really nothing in your hands. You will be forever changing programming language, dropping and bringing the same ideas and nothing still. Sorry if i am writing something rude for you, as i wrote, not my case. Probably i'm and many others from my groups friend don't get it in future, cause we don't know if we get something. Every beta is like the same, sometimes more buggy, sometimes not. Anyway, good luck with developing PS. It's final fantasy really, in real life lol --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
I think that was more than a little uncalled for. And I don't see what Final Fantasy has to do with this. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: lirin seal11...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Weel, the most funny thing here is fact, the game is developed from a few years and we have nothing, and what is really incredibly interesting, you haven't nothing. Think about me what you want, not my case, but it's true, little offtopic, but when i read tons of messages from you regarding your products it is more and more fun. Wrestling game, MOTA, star wars AKA MOTA clone, etc etc etc You can't concentrate on anything at all, so you are doing something and nothing. You want to support Win, linux, mac, and in results you have really nothing in your hands. You will be forever changing programming language, dropping and bringing the same ideas and nothing still. Sorry if i am writing something rude for you, as i wrote, not my case. Probably i'm and many others from my groups friend don't get it in future, cause we don't know if we get something. Every beta is like the same, sometimes more buggy, sometimes not. Anyway, good luck with developing PS. It's final fantasy really, in real life lol --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Philip, Thanks for the information. I'll definitely give Allegro a look although I shutter at having to rewrite the input, audio, and threading to fully support Allegro. Although, this might be the answer I am looking for. Its too bad they don't have 3d audio as I've got all the hardware for it, and MOTA 3D was designed with full 3d audio in mind. If I switch I'll have to settle for simple 2d stereo output, but this might settle the current situation where 2d panning is necessary. On 6/12/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Thomas, Have a look at http://www.allegro.cc/. In Allegro 5, they have completely rewritten the sound API and it is now extremely versatile, powerful and, of course, cross platform. It has pan, volume, pitch etc but unfortunately no 3d. It allows you to customize things a great deal, however, such as adding your own format reader/writer interfaces. They have precompiled static and dynamic import libraries, but I ended up building from source. I compiled it on Windows with a lot of the core stripped out such as Direct 3d and OpenGl, which brought the size and list of dependencies down considerably. This is what I will use if I do end up making a cross platform version of BGT. Allegro also has support for mice, joysticks, and soon also touch input which is useful for the IPhone port that they're doing. Hope this helps. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
My thoughts are that if a game relies on accurate sound, then you should go with what produces the most accurate sound. To a lot of people, MOTA's nineteenth beta is like a game for the sighted gamer that has poor graphics. Direct sound gave the best, smoothest, and most accurate sound. If that cannot be used, the I suggest taking the time off of game development to work on the custom sound API for the G3D engine If the sound equals or comes very close to the sounds created with direct sound. Poor graphics won't sell to the sighted gamer, and poor or inaccurate sound won't sell to the blind gamer. Jumpy performance just won't work for some people once they have heard better. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 12:38 PM Subject: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi all, As the subject states I'm looking for some feedback regarding the audio support in Mysteries of the Ancients beta 19 as this seems to be a point of contention for a number of Windows users. I know that many of you are part and partial to Microsoft DirectSound, and some of you have out right called the new FMOD Ex support aweful, crap, etc. At this point I'm not sure how to resolve this issue for yu guys as I am still pretty knew to FMOD and I'm trying to convert the way FMOD Ex pans audio to something that emulates or sounds like DirectSound. In that I have not been too successful to date. However, that does not mean we are out of options. Just that the solutions here are not that apealing right now. The first and simplest solution is to accept the way things are. As for me personally the way FMOD pans sounds isn't a big deal. It doesn't bother me, and sounds good enough. However, I realize from the on and off list messages on this topic many of you don't like it at all. The alternative solution would be to split the Genesis engine into two different engines. One built specifically for Windows users and one specifically built for Linux users. This has both pros and cons that need to be weighed carefully. The up side of building two specific engines for each platform is that I could make use of native APIs for each platform. On Windows I could use DirectInput, DirectSound, the Win32 API, MS Sapi, etc where on the linux side it would use LibSDL, OpenAL-Soft, Speech-Dispatcher, and so on. That sounds good in theory, but is nothing short of a nightmare to manage. The down side is in many of the cases comparing APIs is like comparing apples and oranges. I'll have to write various wrappers to convert things back and forth between APIs so the game code will compile on either engine without a great deal of modification on my part. That will take considerable time to add and will delay the release of games like MOTA even further even more than it already is. Which is not something I look forward to doing at this point in the development process. The final option or solution I can see here is not necessarily to make two different game engines, but take some time away from MOTA, Raceway, etc to write a custom sound API for the G3D engine. It might wrap DirectSound or XAudio2 on the Windows side, and wrap OpenAL on the Linux side. This seems to me to be the right solution, but would take a good couple months or more to develope as I'd have to wrap two different sound APIs and then expose them to the G3D engine through a single universl API the way Streemway wraps DirectSound and XAudio2 for the BGT engine. In either case it is important that I get this issue sorted out pretty soon as licensing FMOD Ex will take about a third of my expected income from sales, and I don't want to really do that if end users are really that unhappy with it that I might loose sales or it will detract from the games I write using the Genesis 3D engine. I'm not sure what to do here as FMOD Ex has a good reputation, has a lot of advanced features that blows DirectX away, but I'm unable to figure out how to get it to pan the way DirectSound does which is why people are complaining about it. If there is a cheaper solution we can all agree upon then I'm willing to give it a try. Thanks. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web,
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Lirin, You are certainly welcome to your opinions, but I don't consider the fact I have written Star Trek Final Conflict, got screwed over Montezuma's Revenge just about a month from final release, and writing a cross-platform game engine exactly nothing. Yes it is true I have released several betas of Mysteries of the Ancients and that is only because I am testing out various APIs before settling on one for all of my productions. That does not mean I have jumped from language to language as you describe below. I've only switched languages once when I decided to move from C# .Net to C++ to make a more open cross-platform design. The way you talk I've done it 20 times which is simply not true. So if you want to send me a negative comment like the one below get your facts straight ok? The facts are that Mysteries of the Ancients 1.0 is almost complete. I'm in the process of adding additional levels, finalizing some game mechanics, and working on a licensing system. However, the entire point of this thread was to figure out what would be the best way to handle audio with the G3D engine since it is A, cross-platform, and B, because if not for this issue I could finish up MOTA and have it out before the end of summer. As for me not focussing on one project I think you are missing one vital piece of information how I work. I may come on list and discuss a wrestling game or whatever, I'll take down notes, but it does not necessarily mean I run off to my PC and start coding the thing. I am merely writing down thoughts, ideas, and useful information for that potential project. At the time being I only have two projects in active development and that is MOTA and Raceway. With the majority of my free time being spent specifically on MOTA so like I said get your facts straight before running your mouth. Cheers! On 6/12/11, lirin seal11...@gmail.com wrote: Weel, the most funny thing here is fact, the game is developed from a few years and we have nothing, and what is really incredibly interesting, you haven't nothing. Think about me what you want, not my case, but it's true, little offtopic, but when i read tons of messages from you regarding your products it is more and more fun. Wrestling game, MOTA, star wars AKA MOTA clone, etc etc etc You can't concentrate on anything at all, so you are doing something and nothing. You want to support Win, linux, mac, and in results you have really nothing in your hands. You will be forever changing programming language, dropping and bringing the same ideas and nothing still. Sorry if i am writing something rude for you, as i wrote, not my case. Probably i'm and many others from my groups friend don't get it in future, cause we don't know if we get something. Every beta is like the same, sometimes more buggy, sometimes not. Anyway, good luck with developing PS. It's final fantasy really, in real life lol --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Charles, Yeah, I certainly understand that. I know that the audio, joystick support, etc was much better in the Windows version of the G3D Engine, and I even agree beta 19 seems like a step backward instead of forward. The problem is that I want and need a completely cross-platform solution that basically does what DirectX does that will allow me to build high quality games for my OS, Linux, and still be able to produce Windows versions for my customers as well. That said, if Allegro doesn't pan out I'm just going to have to compile a Windows specific version of MOTA for Windows, and forget it. I'll be unhappy about having to maintain a version for an OS I no longer use, but my customers will be happy at any rate. Cheers! On 6/12/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: My thoughts are that if a game relies on accurate sound, then you should go with what produces the most accurate sound. To a lot of people, MOTA's nineteenth beta is like a game for the sighted gamer that has poor graphics. Direct sound gave the best, smoothest, and most accurate sound. If that cannot be used, the I suggest taking the time off of game development to work on the custom sound API for the G3D engine If the sound equals or comes very close to the sounds created with direct sound. Poor graphics won't sell to the sighted gamer, and poor or inaccurate sound won't sell to the blind gamer. Jumpy performance just won't work for some people once they have heard better. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Tom, I know that the current Windows sound library (Fmod EX), or what it is called was not very usable on the playyer's side in the latest public Beta. We already had such problems in earlier beta versions, i think Beta 12, 13 or 14 or all of them. There panning in combination with walking caused problems when it came to dealing with fire pids. Panning did not work then and when you were near a fire pit and wanted to make one step to the jumping point and you made two instead and did not hear where you were except for your character burning to death in the pit... We had such problesms as I said before and they were fixed in betas 16, 17 and 18. When you again changed the windows sound libraries, we again got serious problems as I also said in an earlier post to this list, so whatever you intend to do, this library you currently use can't be the right one for Windows unless you find a way to resolve its current problems. As I also said before I could not finish Beta 19 due to several sound and movement issues, while I was able to beat Beta 18 after an intense Aaudio help session with Matheus... And while this does not belong in a post about sound libraries, you need to do something about running jumps. Please give them a custom sound which differs from a normal jump and you need to do something that prevents consecutive normal jumps when you hold the keys too long after a running jump has been performed... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into consideration. I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other platforms, since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I don't get why worry about a handful of people... - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 10:27 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Charles, Yeah, I certainly understand that. I know that the audio, joystick support, etc was much better in the Windows version of the G3D Engine, and I even agree beta 19 seems like a step backward instead of forward. The problem is that I want and need a completely cross-platform solution that basically does what DirectX does that will allow me to build high quality games for my OS, Linux, and still be able to produce Windows versions for my customers as well. That said, if Allegro doesn't pan out I'm just going to have to compile a Windows specific version of MOTA for Windows, and forget it. I'll be unhappy about having to maintain a version for an OS I no longer use, but my customers will be happy at any rate. __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5266 (20100709) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
There was no constructive criticism, nor was there any encouragement in it. As far as a message like that being sent to the list instead of directly to the target, I'd say it was pointless, other than to stir up those who support Tom in his lengthy endeavor. He does this work after taking the game over from someone so that we would not be ripped off when our money had been paid in good faith to someone who quit developing games. He then works like heck to get the game not only the way he wants it to be, but works to also please the majority of gamers. And he does this through feedback from us, as conflicting as it is. Then, we have to see garbage like this as feedback? Not yours that I am replying to, but the one you replied to. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 1:30 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support I think that was more than a little uncalled for. And I don't see what Final Fantasy has to do with this. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: lirin seal11...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Weel, the most funny thing here is fact, the game is developed from a few years and we have nothing, and what is really incredibly interesting, you haven't nothing. Think about me what you want, not my case, but it's true, little offtopic, but when i read tons of messages from you regarding your products it is more and more fun. Wrestling game, MOTA, star wars AKA MOTA clone, etc etc etc You can't concentrate on anything at all, so you are doing something and nothing. You want to support Win, linux, mac, and in results you have really nothing in your hands. You will be forever changing programming language, dropping and bringing the same ideas and nothing still. Sorry if i am writing something rude for you, as i wrote, not my case. Probably i'm and many others from my groups friend don't get it in future, cause we don't know if we get something. Every beta is like the same, sometimes more buggy, sometimes not. Anyway, good luck with developing PS. It's final fantasy really, in real life lol --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
I hope Allegro is a workable solution. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 3:27 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Charles, Yeah, I certainly understand that. I know that the audio, joystick support, etc was much better in the Windows version of the G3D Engine, and I even agree beta 19 seems like a step backward instead of forward. The problem is that I want and need a completely cross-platform solution that basically does what DirectX does that will allow me to build high quality games for my OS, Linux, and still be able to produce Windows versions for my customers as well. That said, if Allegro doesn't pan out I'm just going to have to compile a Windows specific version of MOTA for Windows, and forget it. I'll be unhappy about having to maintain a version for an OS I no longer use, but my customers will be happy at any rate. Cheers! On 6/12/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: My thoughts are that if a game relies on accurate sound, then you should go with what produces the most accurate sound. To a lot of people, MOTA's nineteenth beta is like a game for the sighted gamer that has poor graphics. Direct sound gave the best, smoothest, and most accurate sound. If that cannot be used, the I suggest taking the time off of game development to work on the custom sound API for the G3D engine If the sound equals or comes very close to the sounds created with direct sound. Poor graphics won't sell to the sighted gamer, and poor or inaccurate sound won't sell to the blind gamer. Jumpy performance just won't work for some people once they have heard better. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi, Here's a thought, release a version for windows soon which uses directX and etc. Once that is out and generating sales, take as much time as you need to iron out the audio bugs in the cross-platform version. Most of the gaming community will be off your back and happily playing, and you can work on getting the audio right. Once you have a solution, you can either update the windows version of Mota to use the new engine, or you can just leave it as is. Another benefit is that you will have actual sales income to defray the cost of FMOD, Allegro, or whatever audio library you decide to use. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 4:27 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Charles, Yeah, I certainly understand that. I know that the audio, joystick support, etc was much better in the Windows version of the G3D Engine, and I even agree beta 19 seems like a step backward instead of forward. The problem is that I want and need a completely cross-platform solution that basically does what DirectX does that will allow me to build high quality games for my OS, Linux, and still be able to produce Windows versions for my customers as well. That said, if Allegro doesn't pan out I'm just going to have to compile a Windows specific version of MOTA for Windows, and forget it. I'll be unhappy about having to maintain a version for an OS I no longer use, but my customers will be happy at any rate. Cheers! On 6/12/11, Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net wrote: My thoughts are that if a game relies on accurate sound, then you should go with what produces the most accurate sound. To a lot of people, MOTA's nineteenth beta is like a game for the sighted gamer that has poor graphics. Direct sound gave the best, smoothest, and most accurate sound. If that cannot be used, the I suggest taking the time off of game development to work on the custom sound API for the G3D engine If the sound equals or comes very close to the sounds created with direct sound. Poor graphics won't sell to the sighted gamer, and poor or inaccurate sound won't sell to the blind gamer. Jumpy performance just won't work for some people once they have heard better. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Pitr, That all sounds well and good except for one thing you are over looking. Who am I writing this game for? You or me? Why am I writing these games in the first place? Well, to answer the first question I thought i was writing the games for myself, because they are games I like and wanted to play. If I could sell them and make a little money off of them that would be fine, but I'm not writing them for the audio games community specifically. It might sound selfish but if I can't write the games for my own personal enjoyment then there is absolutely no point in writing them in the first place. As for the second question, I started writing games because at the time I thought it was enjoyable, something fun, and really liked it before I got caught up in the Alchemy crap. Now though, every time I sit down to work on MOTA I just want to quit. In fact, I'd go far to say I hate writing games, because the experience has become so much of a hastle for me. I want to write my games one way, but the community wants me to write it another. For you its easy to sit there and say forget writing the games for Linux, ditch the Linux version, because that's only for a small handful of people. One of those handful of people is me. So if I'm not writing versions of MOTA I can personally use or play I might as well refund the community their money and close USA Games. There would be no point in continuing to write games if I have to make them for Windows, and still not be able to play them on Linux myself. Is that what you want me to do? In any case this was not the point of my e-mail. My point was to find a solution so that I could do both. If you aren't giving me cunstructive advice how to do that you are just muddying the thread with an option I can not and will not accept. Dropping support for Linux is not an option for me. So stop trying to talk me out of it. Cheers! On 6/12/11, Pitermach piterm...@gmail.com wrote: The problem I see is why target linux instead of mac? Ok, you use ubuntu yourself, but then It's pretty clear that the mac community is really outnumbering the linux one. And we're not taking windows into consideration. I think what you should do is dich the linux version for now, get the windows one out there, and when you get a mac, work on the other platforms, since the bulk of the community are windows users anyway, so I don't get why worry about a handful of people... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Karl, That's probably what I'll end up doing in the end. I'm really sick and tired of being asked when MOTA will be out, please fix the audio because it sucks, etc and since the Windows version of the G3D engine used in beta 18 is rock solid stable that only seems like the best thing to do for the short term. Cheers! On 6/12/11, Karl Belanger karl.belan...@comcast.net wrote: Hi, Here's a thought, release a version for windows soon which uses directX and etc. Once that is out and generating sales, take as much time as you need to iron out the audio bugs in the cross-platform version. Most of the gaming community will be off your back and happily playing, and you can work on getting the audio right. Once you have a solution, you can either update the windows version of Mota to use the new engine, or you can just leave it as is. Another benefit is that you will have actual sales income to defray the cost of FMOD, Allegro, or whatever audio library you decide to use. Karl --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi Tom I was planning to keep out of the debate here but have to point out. Granted Montezooma was something beyond your control. Then you took the Mota angle with the game. You've been up front about the development of it with everyone. People have access to the betas you have released. You've taken the community view into consideration. I've no clue who the below person is but I think They're way out of line. Be happy that you've actually continued the project, and as for myself I am. Our devs deserve encouragement, not being shot down like that message. On the upside there's always going to be someone to complain regardless of what you do. I don't know the more technical aspects of programming so can't really comment there. However as has been said no dev is getting rich off our market so it's all in your hands. I personally think you've done great with the cross platform game, keep it up! Ron - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Hi Lirin, You are certainly welcome to your opinions, but I don't consider the fact I have written Star Trek Final Conflict, got screwed over Montezuma's Revenge just about a month from final release, and writing a cross-platform game engine exactly nothing. Yes it is true I have released several betas of Mysteries of the Ancients and that is only because I am testing out various APIs before settling on one for all of my productions. That does not mean I have jumped from language to language as you describe below. I've only switched languages once when I decided to move from C# .Net to C++ to make a more open cross-platform design. The way you talk I've done it 20 times which is simply not true. So if you want to send me a negative comment like the one below get your facts straight ok? The facts are that Mysteries of the Ancients 1.0 is almost complete. I'm in the process of adding additional levels, finalizing some game mechanics, and working on a licensing system. However, the entire point of this thread was to figure out what would be the best way to handle audio with the G3D engine since it is A, cross-platform, and B, because if not for this issue I could finish up MOTA and have it out before the end of summer. As for me not focussing on one project I think you are missing one vital piece of information how I work. I may come on list and discuss a wrestling game or whatever, I'll take down notes, but it does not necessarily mean I run off to my PC and start coding the thing. I am merely writing down thoughts, ideas, and useful information for that potential project. At the time being I only have two projects in active development and that is MOTA and Raceway. With the majority of my free time being spent specifically on MOTA so like I said get your facts straight before running your mouth. Cheers! On 6/12/11, lirin seal11...@gmail.com wrote: Weel, the most funny thing here is fact, the game is developed from a few years and we have nothing, and what is really incredibly interesting, you haven't nothing. Think about me what you want, not my case, but it's true, little offtopic, but when i read tons of messages from you regarding your products it is more and more fun. Wrestling game, MOTA, star wars AKA MOTA clone, etc etc etc You can't concentrate on anything at all, so you are doing something and nothing. You want to support Win, linux, mac, and in results you have really nothing in your hands. You will be forever changing programming language, dropping and bringing the same ideas and nothing still. Sorry if i am writing something rude for you, as i wrote, not my case. Probably i'm and many others from my groups friend don't get it in future, cause we don't know if we get something. Every beta is like the same, sometimes more buggy, sometimes not. Anyway, good luck with developing PS. It's final fantasy really, in real life lol --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
well there is also that long platform or long platforms in gneral I don't like them that much. At 08:32 a.m. 13/06/2011, you wrote: Hi Tom, I know that the current Windows sound library (Fmod EX), or what it is called was not very usable on the playyer's side in the latest public Beta. We already had such problems in earlier beta versions, i think Beta 12, 13 or 14 or all of them. There panning in combination with walking caused problems when it came to dealing with fire pids. Panning did not work then and when you were near a fire pit and wanted to make one step to the jumping point and you made two instead and did not hear where you were except for your character burning to death in the pit... We had such problesms as I said before and they were fixed in betas 16, 17 and 18. When you again changed the windows sound libraries, we again got serious problems as I also said in an earlier post to this list, so whatever you intend to do, this library you currently use can't be the right one for Windows unless you find a way to resolve its current problems. As I also said before I could not finish Beta 19 due to several sound and movement issues, while I was able to beat Beta 18 after an intense Aaudio help session with Matheus... And while this does not belong in a post about sound libraries, you need to do something about running jumps. Please give them a custom sound which differs from a normal jump and you need to do something that prevents consecutive normal jumps when you hold the keys too long after a running jump has been performed... --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support
Hi, I have to agree ere. I understand the intent here, but there has to be a way to send this that sounds less like hatemail and a message trying to put down Thomas in the longrun.Best Regards, Hayden -- From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 3:50 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support There was no constructive criticism, nor was there any encouragement in it. As far as a message like that being sent to the list instead of directly to the target, I'd say it was pointless, other than to stir up those who support Tom in his lengthy endeavor. He does this work after taking the game over from someone so that we would not be ripped off when our money had been paid in good faith to someone who quit developing games. He then works like heck to get the game not only the way he wants it to be, but works to also please the majority of gamers. And he does this through feedback from us, as conflicting as it is. Then, we have to see garbage like this as feedback? Not yours that I am replying to, but the one you replied to. --- Laughter is the best medicine, so look around, find a dose and take it to heart. - Original Message - From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 1:30 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support I think that was more than a little uncalled for. And I don't see what Final Fantasy has to do with this. We are the Knights who say...Ni! - Original Message - From: lirin seal11...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] MOTA Audio Support Weel, the most funny thing here is fact, the game is developed from a few years and we have nothing, and what is really incredibly interesting, you haven't nothing. Think about me what you want, not my case, but it's true, little offtopic, but when i read tons of messages from you regarding your products it is more and more fun. Wrestling game, MOTA, star wars AKA MOTA clone, etc etc etc You can't concentrate on anything at all, so you are doing something and nothing. You want to support Win, linux, mac, and in results you have really nothing in your hands. You will be forever changing programming language, dropping and bringing the same ideas and nothing still. Sorry if i am writing something rude for you, as i wrote, not my case. Probably i'm and many others from my groups friend don't get it in future, cause we don't know if we get something. Every beta is like the same, sometimes more buggy, sometimes not. Anyway, good luck with developing PS. It's final fantasy really, in real life lol --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
