Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
Its public domain, thats very free, GPL has had is day as a free license, but version 3 has clauses that are very restrictive to others that want to contirbute, i no longer will even consider working on GPL v3 code. On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: On Thu, 2010-08-12 at 09:17 -0500, John Griessen wrote: OpenNurbs.org has the code, public domain. He's considering forking and licensing it GPL. IMO, that sounds like quite an aggressive thing to do to a code base.. particularly forking, then choosing a less permissive license to release under. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
-Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Steven Michalske Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 8:19 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report Its public domain, thats very free, GPL has had is day as a free license, but version 3 has clauses that are very restrictive to others that want to contirbute, i no longer will even consider working on GPL v3 code. +1 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: I think there is an error
In the PCB quick reference card, the dimensions are indicated as 1/100 mils. This is clearly wrong. It should be 1/100 inch or 10 mils. OR, Am I missing something? C K M - Original Message - From: geda-user-requ...@moria.seul.org To: c mitra c_mi...@lycos.com Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:26:56 PM GMT +05:30 Chennai, Kolkata, Mumbai, New Delhi Subject: Welcome to the geda-user mailing list Welcome to the geda-user@moria.seul.org mailing list! To post to this list, send your email to: geda-user@moria.seul.org General information about the mailing list is at: http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user If you ever want to unsubscribe or change your options (eg, switch to or from digest mode, change your password, etc.), visit your subscription page at: http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/geda-user/c_mitra%40lycos.com You can also make such adjustments via email by sending a message to: geda-user-requ...@moria.seul.org with the word `help' in the subject or body (don't include the quotes), and you will get back a message with instructions. You must know your password to change your options (including changing the password, itself) or to unsubscribe. It is: 210210 Normally, Mailman will remind you of your moria.seul.org mailing list passwords once every month, although you can disable this if you prefer. This reminder will also include instructions on how to unsubscribe or change your account options. There is also a button on your options page that will email your current password to you. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: I think there is an error
c_mi...@lycos.com wrote: In the PCB quick reference card, the dimensions are indicated as 1/100 mils. This is clearly wrong. It should be 1/100 inch or 10 mils. 1/100 mil is correct. See http://pcb.gpleda.org/pcb-cvs/pcb.html#File-Syntax Note, there is a depreciated but still supported syntax with round brackets. These dimensions are in mil, i.e. 1/1000 inch. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
Steven Michalske wrote: but version 3 has clauses that are very restrictive to others that want to contirbute, -v can you give an example, please? --)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: experience with import-schematics
bump. More generally: What config files does import schematics look at? The import feature needs a bit more documentation. --)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: [OT] Fluorescent tube help
Chris Smith wrote: I recently purchased an old, second-hand UV exposure box to try making PCBs at home. One of the tubes has started to fail and in replacing them I have noticed something odd: the box takes two 12 8W T5 tubes, but has only a single 13W switch-start ballast. I assumed that a previous owner uprated the tubes without changing the ballast, but in looking for a replacement I have become stuck. 2. two tubes can be wired in series here in the UK because of the higher mains voltage, but the suggestion is that a special ballast might be needed. Again, no explanation why. From my limited knowledge of how fluorescent tubes work... During the start phase, the starter short-circuits the tube allowing current to flow through the starter and the heating filaments at the ends of the tube. If you put two tubes in series and the starter is integrated into the ballast, how do you wire them so that this mechanism still works? The starter won't be able to heat one end of each tube. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: [OT] Fluorescent tube help
John Griessen wrote: If you can get the same bulbs and it's not expensive, run them and maybe they burn out and who cares, as long as you have some good insulation protection from the HV. I guess so, it's just, well... I'd like to _know_. :) You could try DJ's UV LED methods and skip the hassle and danger? http://www.delorie.com/pcb/uvled/ It's an idea for the future, but to be honest making my own isn't the goal right now, particularly as the box I have works -- I just don't know if it's working as well as it should. Long tubes are a bad shape for exposing photomask anyway. A point source gives better edges. Maybe your old setup was for erasing ROMS? No, it's definitely an exposure box -- an old RS 555-279. All the exposure boxes I've seen for sale have used tubes. Chris -- Chris Smith cj...@zepler.net signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: help with gwave svn-REV2444
sibu xolo wrote: `sgtk_wrap_gtkobj' wavelist.o: In function `get_gwave_tooltips': $SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src/wavelist.c:417: undefined reference to `sgtk_get_gtkobj' collect2: ld returned 1 exit status make[4]: *** [gwave] Error 1 make[4]: Leaving directory `$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src' make[3]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 make[3]: Leaving directory `$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src' make[2]: *** [all] Error 2 make[2]: Leaving directory `$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src' make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 make[1]: Leaving directory `$SOURCES/gwave/trunk' make: *** [all] Error 2 stab in the dark: Did you install all the *-dev packages to the GTK stuff? ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: help with gwave svn-REV2444
On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 12:19 +0100, sibu xolo wrote: Dear All, I have been trying to compile the program gwave (from svn ) gwave is one of the most demanding tools of geda suite, for building from sources. In my opinion, if your goal is to compile latest versions from sources, then some knowledge and own work (at least google search for error messages) may be helpful (may be related to guile-gtk?) You may look at a few (old) bug reports of gentoo bug database: http://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=ALL+gwave This one was one very demanding: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=293397 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: [OT] Fluorescent tube help
I do not know much about fluorescent tube ballasts, but I can give some general guesses. 1) Wattage is going to relate to total amount of heat dissipation that the ballast can handle. 2) Tube length (each in parallel or both in series) relates to the voltage needed to first strike and arc, and then maintain the arc that gets converted into light. 3) Tube diameter relates to steady state current needed to change the full width of the tubes. This would be summed (by area, nit diameter) for tubes in parallel. Looking on McMasters-Car, you can pull the same trick of double the input voltage, double the output voltage, two tubes in series on a ballast only rated for one: [1]http://www.mcmaster.com/?orderview=new#fluorescent-ballasts/=8dz6aa NOTE: this is only rates for 120V mains voltage. All the listings at MaMasters for 208 or 240 are for compact fluorescent folded tubes. It seems that the F8T5 tube is only directly supported on 120V ballasts. You might do better to buy a cheap 2 tube, 120V mains F8T5 ballast and a 240 to 120 transformer. Or just buy a brand new two tube lamp at the store and swap for the high UV bulbs. Mike References 1. http://www.mcmaster.com/?orderview=new#fluorescent-ballasts/=8dz6aa ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
On Aug 12, 2010, at 7:17 AM, John Griessen wrote: certain 3D entities are *not* documented, they are binary blobs and you can only get the spec by paying for a license from Autocad and signing an NDA. So no open source dxf library will ever be able to handle all of dxf. My immediate goal is to write a library that can make sense of all 2D information in a complete and coherent way, provide a Pythonic interface for reading and writing dxf, and gracefully ignore or perhaps read-and-blobify anything it doesn't understand without crashing or hanging. Sounds good. Does the blobify function you imagine get the physical max boundaries of the unknown correct? My near-term goals are pretty limited. Beyond processing 2D intelligently and presenting a clean object-oriented interface to 2D entities, my goals are simply to not choke, and to gather information for a single entity all into one place, without trying to process intelligently -- more of a here it is if you know what to do with it. I know someone else working on getting 3D usable by FOSS tools by way of a common open format available as a standard or defacto standard. In electronics it seems defacto standards are better than official ones, so... He's looking at Rhino's OpenNurbs definitions in c++. OpenNurbs.org has the code, public domain. He's considering forking and licensing it GPL. I've been watching FOSS 3D CAD for a while, and until FreeCAD came along the outlook was pretty depressing. The FreeCAD guys, however, are making progress a bullet-train speed. My first instinct would be to find a way to help them. -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
Dave N6NZ wrote: I've been watching FOSS 3D CAD for a while, and until FreeCAD came along the outlook was pretty depressing. The FreeCAD guys, however, are making progress a bullet-train speed. My first instinct would be to find a way to help them. If freecad keeps growing at the current rate, it will be useful for decent applications pretty soon. I get the impression that they put lots of serious thought into the infrastructure. Freecad format would be the perfect target for 3D import/export of pcb layout data. Much more powerful than any local eye candy. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 11:21 -0700, Dave N6NZ wrote: I've been watching FOSS 3D CAD for a while, and until FreeCAD came along the outlook was pretty depressing. The FreeCAD guys, however, are making progress a bullet-train speed. My first instinct would be to find a way to help them. -dave Why not using IDES/STEP file format. I've seen it's pretty popular in the Aerospace/Mechanics 3D models interchange. And IMO STEP is the most successfully supported format in FOSS so far. Apps: brlcad freecad heekscad salome(not that free, but claims to be Open source) and any toolchain based on Open Cascade there's also python Open Cascade(pyOCC) python bindings. According to my Aerspace related partners, DXF has almost nothing to apport to 3D CAD. Best Regards, Felipe. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user -- Felipe De la Puente Christen Mobile Phone: +56 9 93199807 MSN/GTalk : fdelapue...@gmail.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
On Mon, 2010-08-09 at 10:59 -0600, John Doty wrote: Remember, pcb isn't the only layout path we support. Yes. But I think the addition of net classes will not really break something. Of course it will increase the code size, which is not really nice. And it may decrease the working speed of PCB program. I have written a short summary of this idea: http://ssalewski.de/gEDA-Netclass.html.en ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
Felipe De la Puente Christen wrote: Why not using IDES/STEP file format. Because STEP is a hell of a standard and non-free, too. It encompasses much more than 3D mechanical data and aims to cover every aspect of every product. The standard itself is closed source. You have to pay real money and sign a NDA document to receive a copy. I once tried figure, how a cube as a 3D equivalent to hello-world would look like in STEP format. There was lots and lots information available _on_ STEP but none on the actual syntax. Going the freecad way would avoid this kind of hassle. According to my Aerspace related partners, DXF has almost nothing to apport to 3D CAD. true. ---)kaimrtin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
On Aug 13, 2010, at 12:51 PM, Felipe De la Puente Christen wrote: On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 11:21 -0700, Dave N6NZ wrote: I've been watching FOSS 3D CAD for a while, and until FreeCAD came along the outlook was pretty depressing. The FreeCAD guys, however, are making progress a bullet-train speed. My first instinct would be to find a way to help them. -dave snip According to my Aerspace related partners, DXF has almost nothing to apport to 3D CAD. Yes, well, I can't imagine using dxf for any serious 3D work. But it does have 3D entities in the file format. My earlier comments w.r.t. a dxf i/o library reflect both of those statements. :) I don't know much about 3D file formats. I know stl is basically a bag of triangles, and I think stl is also. So while you can communicate a hull, you can't do much more. No parametric information, no material information, no joint information, etc. Not sure about iges, I know pretty much nothing about it. -dave ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
Hi all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of kai-martin knaak Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 11:43 PM To: geda-u...@seul.org Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report Felipe De la Puente Christen wrote: Why not using IDES/STEP file format. Because STEP is a hell of a standard and non-free, too. It encompasses much more than 3D mechanical data and aims to cover every aspect of every product. The standard itself is closed source. You have to pay real money and sign a NDA document to receive a copy. I once tried figure, how a cube as a 3D equivalent to hello-world would look like in STEP format. There was lots and lots information available _on_ STEP but none on the actual syntax. Going the freecad way would avoid this kind of hassle. According to my Aerspace related partners, DXF has almost nothing to apport to 3D CAD. true. ---)kaimrtin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 Intermediate Data Format (IDF) may be a viable solution, some main stream CAD applications use it or have import/export functionality for IDF. The format is described here: http://www.simplifiedsolutionsinc.com/images/idf_v20_spec.pdf Or have a google with IDF CAD. Happy reading. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: On Thu, 2010-08-12 at 09:17 -0500, John Griessen wrote: OpenNurbs.org has the code, public domain. He's considering forking and licensing it GPL. IMO, that sounds like quite an aggressive thing to do to a code base.. particularly forking, then choosing a less permissive license to release under. He finds there is little community involved using it and no one improving the code except the original commercial publisher for bug fixes. That's the only reason for a fork. John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
Dave N6NZ wrote: I don't know much about 3D file formats. I know stl is basically a bag of triangles, and I think stl is also. So while you can communicate a hull, you can't do much more. No parametric information, no material information, no joint information, etc. Not sure about iges, I know pretty much nothing about it. IGES is an old US military standard. It means 'Initial Graphics Exchange Specification' and the specification for it is freely available, since it's a work from a US government agency (I got it ;-). As the name says, it was meant as preliminary work, but served it's purpose for decades. Now it's being replaced by STEP... For the reason that STEP costs a lot of money, I wonder how the FreeCAD guys want to keep the promisse to provide import and export for it - maybe a feature of the OpenCASCADE kernel - but how did they? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: 3D package data to land pattern generator
Felipe De la Puente Christen wrote: Why not using IDES/STEP file format. He's looking for some way to have a 3D library at least be viewable without installing a giant amount of code from OpenCascade. John ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
On Friday 13 August 2010, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: can you give an example, please? Under GPL-3 you can't make a contribution that applies one of your own patents, then sue the users of the package for patent infringement. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: 3d package to land pattern generator
Armin Faltl wrote: IGES is an old US military standard. It means 'Initial Graphics Exchange Specification' and the specification for it is freely available, since it's a work from a US government agency (I got it ;-). As the name says, it was meant as preliminary work, but served it's purpose for decades. Now it's being replaced by STEP... For the reason that STEP costs a lot of money, I wonder how the FreeCAD guys want to keep the promisse to provide import and export for it - maybe a feature of the OpenCASCADE kernel - but how did they? Not sure why, but they recommended it when wanting to do anything parametric a couple of months ago... I couldn't get enough to function then. Sounds like time to revisit their forums. Wish they would open up to an email list instead of isolated forum website for all contact. John -- Ecosensory Austin TX ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: experience with import-schaematics
DJ Delorie wrote: I found that unlike gsch2pcb import did not remove footprints of deleted components from the existing layout. Is this deliberate? Or is it just a feature to be? Deliberate. All elements that shouldn't be there are selected, so you can hit Delete to delete them, or not. This should be documented in the manual. Do you accept patches? ---)kaimartin(--- PS: The manual still points the reader to sourceforge (in Is Harry Eaton still the current maintainer? Haven't read much from him sice some time. If so, is the email at jhuapl.edu still valid? The wiki page on GSoC-2010 gives a gmail address. -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
I can't give an example on the intricacies of GPL v3 of the top of my head, but wanted to write the following to RFS regarding putting libraries under GPL instead of LGPL: I want to contribute or give away what I want to and keep my own what I want to keep and if this is not possible with a GPL-license on my own library liked to my own app, I just won't use GPL! I tried some hours to find an e-mail address of RFS - there must be a reason it's not public... Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Steven Michalske wrote: but version 3 has clauses that are very restrictive to others that want to contirbute, -v can you give an example, please? --)kaimartin(--- ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: GPL-v3 for Open CAD
John Griessen wrote: al davis wrote: On Friday 13 August 2010, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: can you give an example, please? Under GPL-3 you can't make a contribution that applies one of your own patents, then sue the users of the package for patent infringement. Sounds OK for openness so far. What else? yup, that's not so bad - what I find bad is, that he's trying to force GPL on all the libs, he thinks he's got the power to do. gnu libc he thinks is not a candidate, since there are too many other libc's. I'm happy with this, from the moment on, RFS pays all my bills and of course all the bills I might have, from that moment on ;-) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: experience with import-schematics
Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Yes please, with git format-patch if you can. Here you go. Did the patch apply? ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
Armin Faltl wrote: IGES is an old US military standard. It means 'Initial Graphics Exchange Specification' and the specification for it is freely available, since it's a work from a US government agency (I got it ;-). As the name says, it was meant as preliminary work, but served it's purpose for decades. Now it's being replaced by STEP... Sorry, it's not the military... still you here find the seemingly latest spec: http://www.uspro.org/documents/IGES5-3_forDownload.pdf/view ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am 13.08.2010 23:23, schrieb Stefan Salewski: On Mon, 2010-08-09 at 10:59 -0600, John Doty wrote: Remember, pcb isn't the only layout path we support. Yes. But I think the addition of net classes will not really break something. Of course it will increase the code size, which is not really nice. And it may decrease the working speed of PCB program. I have written a short summary of this idea: http://ssalewski.de/gEDA-Netclass.html.en ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user Stefan, I looked at your suggestions about netclasses and I like them. What I would like to add (and this adds complexity, too), is the notion of differential pair (two wires should be same length, but the actual length basically is a don't care) or busses and control signals (industry standard SDRAM's etc where you have delay constraints of an entire bus vs. a single control signal). Furthermore I have a little objection towards No chance for unskilled people or autorouters, I agree with unskilled people, but at least a subset of the requirements can be translated to autorouter attributes, e.g. impedance easily translates to geometry for a defined layer stack (including base material, copper width ... ) while other attributes you suggest (short) would only be applicable to an autoplacer (or skilled people). I know that the target to add net classes AND to support them with auto[route|place|...] is very challenging, but nevertheless I think that it's worth a try/start a discusssion. - -- Mit freundlichen Gruessen Dietmar Schmunkamp -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxly8wACgkQn22l+QvEah1zVACfQP5orxgMpJCvjbT3bPuxJUjZ UFYAn3//FoLemiNGwqa75SmMw4HZYn3H =qvlC -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
Armin Faltl wrote: I tried some hours to find an e-mail address of RFS - there must be a reason it's not public... google Richard Stallman email First hit http://stallman.org/ says email rms at gnu period org ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: 3d package to land pattern generator
Dave N6NZ wrote: On Aug 13, 2010, at 12:51 PM, Felipe De la Puente Christen wrote: According to my Aerspace related partners, DXF has almost nothing to apport to 3D CAD. Yes, well, I can't imagine using dxf for any serious 3D work. But it does have 3D entities in the file format. My earlier comments w.r.t. a dxf i/o library reflect both of those statements. :) The thing about DXF is that it has become a defacto standard that is important to the EDA and CAD industry so there is value in using the large herds of manufacturer package data that are going to be coming out in that format defining component part packages. It does not matter how lame it is for 3D expressiveness, all that is needed is a spartan wire frame outline of a part to get a very accurate footprint via automatic means. Automatic means is the only hope for open source community use, since volunteer effort is such a slim and none chance to come by. It's something automate-able or nothing. I'll be working on creating some extra rent paid up time to help Dave automate DXF-to-footprint data. John Griessen ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: pcb: experience with import-schaematics
This should be documented in the manual. Do you accept patches? Sure. PS: The manual still points the reader to sourceforge (in Is Harry Eaton still the current maintainer? Haven't read much from him sice some time. If so, is the email at jhuapl.edu still valid? The wiki page on GSoC-2010 gives a gmail address. I haven't heard from Harry in a while. He pops in once in a while to play with it, but not regularly. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
On Sat, 2010-08-14 at 00:48 +0200, Dietmar Schmunkamp wrote: Stefan, I looked at your suggestions about netclasses and I like them. Indeed currently I am still looking for a good reason against that proposal. My best candidates: It is not too useful for small projects, and it is some work to implement. What I would like to add (and this adds complexity, too), is the notion of differential pair (two wires should be same length, but the actual length basically is a don't care) or busses and control signals (industry standard SDRAM's etc where you have delay constraints of an entire bus vs. a single control signal). Sure! I tried to mention that type short by writing: More or less related to this problem are attributes defining pairs of traces for differential signals: Maybe we can assign attributes like s...@1 and s...@2 indicating the pair, which should have a defined trace separation and equal length on PCB board. (A similar notation may be useful to indicate buses and allow pinswap in the schematic). I have to admit that I do not know much about differential pairs now, but it is very important... Furthermore I have a little objection towards No chance for unskilled people or autorouters, I agree with unskilled people, but at least a subset of the requirements can be translated to autorouter attributes, e.g. impedance easily translates to geometry for a defined layer stack (including base material, copper width ... ) while other attributes you suggest (short) would only be applicable to an autoplacer (or skilled people). I know that the target to add net classes AND to support them with auto[route|place|...] is very challenging, but nevertheless I think that it's worth a try/start a discusssion. I agree. I guess it would be no great deal for smart (but very busy) people like Peter C. and DJ, to implement the basic concept. For people not familiar with the internals of gschem and PCB like me it may take very long... Best regards Stefan Salewski ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
Thanks - think I tried to find it on gnu.org - and got probably distracted kai-martin knaak wrote: Armin Faltl wrote: I tried some hours to find an e-mail address of RFS - there must be a reason it's not public... google Richard Stallman email First hit http://stallman.org/ says email rms at gnu period org ---)kaimartin(--- ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
I guess it would be no great deal for smart (but very busy) people like Peter C. and DJ, to implement the basic concept. For people not familiar with the internals of gschem and PCB like me it may take very long... I'm quite willing to teach people PCB internals, if it means having more PCB developers. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
So why not just have properties, and sets of properties. A set of properties *is* a class, if you apply the same set of properties to many nets. Why not let the user pre-define such classes, to make their work easier? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
On Aug 13, 2010, at 5:39 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: So why not just have properties, and sets of properties. A set of properties *is* a class, if you apply the same set of properties to many nets. Why not let the user pre-define such classes, to make their work easier? I suggested that. I also suggested considering a set of properties to be a property, not a class. Or did you not understand flattened union. Maybe that was too obscure. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 19:28 -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: I guess it would be no great deal for smart (but very busy) people like Peter C. and DJ, to implement the basic concept. For people not familiar with the internals of gschem and PCB like me it may take very long... I'm quite willing to teach people PCB internals, if it means having more PCB developers. In my opinion writing some basic documentation about the internal work of PCB would be really a good idea. (I can remember that I looked at the PCB source code about two years ago: I was very positive surprised about the fact that the code was very compact, but I was not able to see the basic concepts...) more PCB developers. Unfortunately here in Germany most people concerned with electronics are very lazy, stupid and do not really care about FOSS. Some weeks ago I visited the kicad developer mailing list -- not much activity from german people also... Sorry. Stefan Salewski ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: 3d package to land pattern generator
John Griessen wrote: It does not matter how lame it is for 3D expressiveness, all that is needed is a spartan wire frame outline of a part to get a very accurate footprint via automatic means. IMHO, lameness does matter. 3D in DXF is so lame, that many CAD applications limit their import/export filters to 2D data. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
Ben Jackson wrote: I'll answer internals questions on geda-dev from anyone who wants to ask. Unfortunately, only approved developers are allowed to ask on geda-dev. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 17:48 -0600, John Doty wrote: On Aug 13, 2010, at 5:39 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: So why not just have properties, and sets of properties. A set of properties *is* a class, if you apply the same set of properties to many nets. Why not let the user pre-define such classes, to make their work easier? I suggested that. I also suggested considering a set of properties to be a property, not a class. Or did you not understand flattened union. Maybe that was too obscure. In my simple mind I consider a set of properties a class. But of course we can call it again a property. Or we can use no sets at all, just single properties. So instead of class/propertyset power one has to specify width25mil, clearance=12mil, color=blue, This is OK, but I think sets/classes make it easier for users and may save space in data files, and may make changes easier. (I know that we can currently assign attributes to nets in gschem, but my impression is that all touching line segments are one net, so we do not have subnets. Which we should have. And we should have color support, a way to see fast which nets segments are High Current... So some internal modification of gschem is necessary.) Indeed, all which we do is assign a special name/label to some subnets, like power_class or bypass_class. We do not have to define inside of gschem what this really means, like tracewidth=25mil and clearance=12mil. We can define this only in PCB. But I think it is more intuitive and practical if we can define such sets already in gschem and transfer that information to PCB (where we may change it if necessary). Best regards Stefan Salewski ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Am 14.08.2010 01:13, schrieb Stefan Salewski: Indeed currently I am still looking for a good reason against that proposal. My best candidates: It is not too useful for small projects, and it is some work to implement. I don't think that this is a good argument against it as long as you don't force small projects to use it. I would see it as an extension to the current gschem - pcb flow. If you don't specify anything, you get the default net attributes as defined in PCB. I have to admit that I do not know much about differential pairs now, but it is very important... If you go high frequency it's getting important. Related to that are termination requirements of a given net, carefully select whether the termination needs to be close to the driver or close to the receiver. Typically this is a problem a tool can't handle. I guess it would be no great deal for smart (but very busy) people like Peter C. and DJ, to implement the basic concept. For people not familiar with the internals of gschem and PCB like me it may take very long... I second that, and I read the response from DJ: You don't know how hard it can be to teach a hardware guy software concepts :-) . Best regards Stefan Salewski ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user - -- Mit freundlichen Gruessen Dietmar Schmunkamp -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkxl47UACgkQn22l+QvEah0pJwCgjcFzsqJqGpl0/vcJ99+HThne brUAn35r4OvjEO8a1TdakafoPPw8l4/A =xfvV -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:13 PM, Stefan Salewski wrote: In my simple mind I consider a set of properties a class. But of course we can call it again a property. It's the difference between ending at class, or being able to compose properties from properties without limit. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
John Doty wrote: It's the difference between ending at class, or being able to compose properties from properties without limit. What do you think, the terms subclass and superclass refer to? ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:54 PM, kai-martin knaak wrote: What do you think, the terms subclass and superclass refer to? Classes in OO aren't like classes in any other context. The concept of class is superfluous and misleading here, since only one concept is needed: property. Much simpler and clearer. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
But property is such a nice, clean, simple building block. Why pollute it by adding more functionality and making it more complex? ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
John Doty wrote: What do you think, the terms subclass and superclass refer to? Classes in OO aren't like classes in any other context. Biology, astronomy, algebra, set theory and database theory all use the concept of subclasses. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:04 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: But property is such a nice, clean, simple building block. Why pollute it by adding more functionality and making it more complex? Because then you can extend the concept without limit. It's like function in mathematics. You can construct functions from functions. But if such constructs were no longer functions, you'd get stuck. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: edge4way rules in magic
I am trying to get some rules programmed into my magic tech file. In particular I want to require metal to encompass the vias by 2um if the metal is wide metal (10um x 10um). Otherwise I only need to encompass the vias by 0.8um. Does anyone know how to specify this in the drc section? Oliver ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:07 PM, kai-martin knaak wrote: John Doty wrote: What do you think, the terms subclass and superclass refer to? Classes in OO aren't like classes in any other context. Biology, astronomy, algebra, set theory and database theory all use the concept of subclasses. But I've worked in astronomy for decades without ever encountering the term superclass. Nor are classes in astronomy associated with methods. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
But property is such a nice, clean, simple building block. Why pollute it by adding more functionality and making it more complex? Because then you can extend the concept without limit. It's like function in mathematics. You can construct functions from functions. But if such constructs were no longer functions, you'd get stuck. To abuse your analogy, our properties is like constants in mathematics. Classes would be functions. A property is like width = 5 or impedance = 50. A class is a collection of properties, which could include a collection of classes or whatnot also. Creating a single object that has to act as both a name-value pair *and* an arbitrary container is not a good idea. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
John Doty wrote: Biology, astronomy, algebra, set theory and database theory all use the concept of subclasses. But I've worked in astronomy for decades without ever encountering the term superclass. Nor are classes in astronomy associated with methods. read again: Did I write superclass? Your statement was, that classes do not contain classes anywhere but in OO. I gave five disjunct areas where classes can indeed contain classes. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: land pattern generators vs. verifying footprints
John Griessen wrote: Bert Timmerman wrote: Hi all, a 1 part library operating a layout service bureau Take a look at http://wikicomponents.com The worlds first Excuse me for having a rather pessimistic view about this site. IMHO, this flipped wikicomponents coin can go just one of two ways: Head: It will work, a bazzillion parts get contributed by thousands of enthousiastic contributors who will produce an error free repo of parts data. And then some day someone will realize that the data contributed is a goldmine and run away with the stuff (gold). I just read their self-projection and agree: while the site and it's service may be good, the 1. point in their list appears as a lie to me: no one owns the data - well, they own the server and their data model, that are not open - they own even more: insight into the projects of everyone really using their My Wiki or teamwork facilities. My proposal to land at the edge of the coin: for the data to be owned by everyone instead of no one, the entire site would need to be downloadable and the design of the site be open source. All the proposed databases in here much more look like that. This and only this would insure, that any attempt to run away with the gold (by all of a sudden increasing fees and dumbing down/add spamming the free stuff) would turn their copy into ... The fact that they try to give a false impression on who owns the data is a clear indication, that they no longer need to realize the value of such a collection - that route is planed from the start. Tbh, trying to make money from good work (and that it is, if the site works as intended) is nothing reprehensible, but to coordinate my own (team-)work, I rather rely on local data that gets overlayed on foreign servers if they are used at all. 2 more cents, Armin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:20 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: But property is such a nice, clean, simple building block. Why pollute it by adding more functionality and making it more complex? Because then you can extend the concept without limit. It's like function in mathematics. You can construct functions from functions. But if such constructs were no longer functions, you'd get stuck. To abuse your analogy, our properties is like constants in mathematics. Classes would be functions. Except in the proposal, classes cannot be composed of other classes. A property is like width = 5 or impedance = 50. A class is a collection of properties, which could include a collection of classes or whatnot also. OK, so now you have two entities where one suffices. How is this simpler? Class is a misleading term in this context. Nets (at best) have properties: classification is sloppy thinking. The utter failure of early efforts to base AI on classification of objects should surely have taught that to us. Creating a single object that has to act as both a name-value pair *and* an arbitrary container is not a good idea. You offer no reasoned support for this opinion. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:27 PM, kai-martin knaak wrote: read again: Did I write superclass? Your statement was, that classes do not contain classes anywhere but in OO. Read again: did I write classes do not contain classes anywhere but in OO? I wrote: Classes in OO aren't like classes in any other context. I gave five disjunct areas where classes can indeed contain classes. John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:27 PM, kai-martin knaak wrote: read again: Did I write superclass? Yes. You wrote: What do you think, the terms subclass and superclass refer to? John Doty Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd. http://www.noqsi.com/ j...@noqsi.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
A collection of constants is a structured constant and a class is not (only) a constant - well at least to me a structured property sounds less missleading than the name class. Why doesn't a class include net topologies, parts etc.? - That's what a true analogon of a class would be - actually a (sub-)schematic and it's display methods. Why is the container function arbitrary - could a structured property contain other things than simple or structured properties? DJ Delorie wrote: But property is such a nice, clean, simple building block. Why pollute it by adding more functionality and making it more complex? Because then you can extend the concept without limit. It's like function in mathematics. You can construct functions from functions. But if such constructs were no longer functions, you'd get stuck. To abuse your analogy, our properties is like constants in mathematics. Classes would be functions. A property is like width = 5 or impedance = 50. A class is a collection of properties, which could include a collection of classes or whatnot also. Creating a single object that has to act as both a name-value pair *and* an arbitrary container is not a good idea. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 07:32:30PM -0600, John Doty wrote: On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:20 PM, DJ Delorie wrote: But property is such a nice, clean, simple building block. Why pollute it by adding more functionality and making it more complex? Because then you can extend the concept without limit. It's like function in mathematics. You can construct functions from functions. But if such constructs were no longer functions, you'd get stuck. To abuse your analogy, our properties is like constants in mathematics. Classes would be functions. Except in the proposal, classes cannot be composed of other classes. That's a trivial change: jumping from a class as a collection of properties to a class as collection of properties/classes is an easy mental jump, and conceptually makes sense. Jumping from a property as a name-value pair to a property as a name-value pair -and- collection of properties, is a big conceptual change. ... Creating a single object that has to act as both a name-value pair *and* an arbitrary container is not a good idea. You offer no reasoned support for this opinion. You're using one word - property - to express two entirely different concepts. Not only is this difficult to think about, it would be almost impossible to program without separating the two behind the scenes. The word class is usually a synonym for set, which is a concept that invites recursion. Property, however, is usually a synonym for attribute, something that isn't recursive. That's a very important distinction. You talk about object-classification failing as a method of AI - but what you mean is that it fails for /general/ AI. The specific AI we are talking about - autorouting and autoplacing - already works by classifying its objects (as vias, traces, components, nets, etc). Andrew ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
al davis wrote: I don't know who RFS is but any license you grant for your own code applies only to those to whom you grant the license. If you write some code, and it's yours, you can license it any way you want. If you make it available for download under GPL, this does not prevent you from granting any other license to anyone, as you choose. There is no requirement that you assign the copyright. Unless you ask anyone that contributes anything to surrender their copyright to you, and you want to do further work based on a version containing 1 char of foreign code I assume you are in trouble. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
John Doty wrote: Class is a misleading term in this context. Nets (at best) have properties: classification is sloppy thinking. No, it is structured thinking. The utter failure of early efforts to base AI on classification of objects should surely have taught that to us. The success of mathematics and biology to conquer their vast fields with hierarchical classification is telltale. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: GPL-v3 for Open CAD
To make this point clear to get companies like IBM to support GPL V3 they had to put in clauses that excepted them from the IP rules. Also see this clause http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License#Compatibility_and_multi-licensing you cant link a GPL v3 library into non GPL v3 work this is bull. I am a stonch proponent of open software, but when the licence makes inroads to invalidate the authors rights that are not part of the software they developed It's going tooo far. I support licenses like BSD, Apachee, Apple open software, GPL V2 and MIT, and other permissive licenses. If you want to licence something as GPL v3 you need do a dual release with a closed license like QT is dual licensed. Cause frankly no sane business with any IP should develop GPL V3 code. Steve On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Armin Faltl armin.fa...@aon.at wrote: John Griessen wrote: al davis wrote: On Friday 13 August 2010, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: can you give an example, please? Under GPL-3 you can't make a contribution that applies one of your own patents, then sue the users of the package for patent infringement. Sounds OK for openness so far. What else? yup, that's not so bad - what I find bad is, that he's trying to force GPL on all the libs, he thinks he's got the power to do. gnu libc he thinks is not a candidate, since there are too many other libc's. I'm happy with this, from the moment on, RFS pays all my bills and of course all the bills I might have, from that moment on ;-) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
John Doty wrote: I wrote: Classes in OO aren't like classes in any other context. Your key point is that class is not an appropriate term, because classes can't contain classes. If this is not, what you wanted to back-up with the OO statement. Why did bring OO into play? I gave five disjunct areas where classes can indeed contain classes. Can you give five disjunct areas where class cannot contain classes. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x6C0B9F53 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI
On Friday 13 August 2010, John Doty wrote: Developers who'd be attracted by a dumbed-down UI are exactly the folks I do not want to see working on gEDA. Just to clarify .. one example of a dumbed-down of the type JD is referring to is LaTeX. After all, LaTeX is just a dumbed- down interface to TeX, which itself is a dumbed-down alternative to troff. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
