Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[bobo]

On Friday 13 August 2010, John Doty wrote:
> Developers who'd be attracted by a dumbed-down UI are exactly
> the folks I do not want to see working on gEDA.

Just to clarify ..  one example of a "dumbed-down" of the type 
JD is referring to is LaTeX.  After all, LaTeX is just a dumbed-
down interface to TeX, which itself is a dumbed-down alternative 
to troff.



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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[kai-martin knaak]

John Doty wrote:

> I wrote: "Classes" in OO aren't like classes in any other context.

Your key point is that class is not an appropriate term, because classes 
can't contain classes. If this is not, what you wanted to back-up with the 
OO statement. Why did bring OO into play?

 
>> I gave five disjunct areas where classes can indeed contain classes.

Can you give five disjunct areas where class cannot contain classes.

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Re: gEDA-user: GPL-v3 for Open CAD

[Steven Michalske]

To make this point clear to get companies like IBM to support GPL V3
they had to put in clauses that excepted them from the IP rules.

Also see this clause
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_General_Public_License#Compatibility_and_multi-licensing

you cant link a GPL v3 library into non GPL v3 work this is bull.

I am a stonch proponent of open software, but when the licence makes
inroads to invalidate the authors rights that are not part of the
software they developed  It's going tooo far.

I support licenses like BSD, Apachee, Apple open software, GPL V2 and
MIT, and other permissive licenses.




If you want to licence something as GPL v3 you need do a dual release
with a closed license like QT is dual licensed.  Cause frankly no sane
business with any IP should develop GPL V3 code.

Steve


On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 6:33 AM, Armin Faltl  wrote:
> John Griessen wrote:
>>
>> al davis wrote:
>>>
>>> On Friday 13 August 2010, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote:

 can you give an example, please?
>>>
>>>
>>> Under GPL-3 you can't make a contribution that applies one of your own
>>> patents, then sue the users of the package for patent infringement.
>>
>> Sounds OK for openness so far.  What else?
>>
> yup, that's not so bad - what I find bad is, that he's trying to force GPL
> on all
> the libs, he thinks he's got the power to do. gnu libc he thinks is not a
> candidate,
> since there are too many other libc's.
>
> I'm happy with this, from the moment on, RFS pays all my bills and of course
> all
> the bills I might have, from that moment on ;-)
>
>
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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[kai-martin knaak]

John Doty wrote:

> "Class" is a misleading term in this context. Nets (at best) have
> properties: classification is sloppy thinking.

No, it is structured thinking.


> The utter failure of early
> efforts to base AI on classification of objects should surely have taught
> that to us.

The success of mathematics and biology to conquer their vast fields with 
hierarchical classification is telltale.

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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[Armin Faltl]

al davis wrote:
I don't know who "RFS" is but any license you grant for your own 
code applies only to those to whom you grant the license.  

If you write some code, and it's yours, you can license it any 
way you want.  If you make it available for download under GPL, 
this does not prevent you from granting any other license to 
anyone, as you choose.  There is no requirement that you assign 
the copyright.
  
Unless you ask anyone that contributes anything to surrender their 
copyright to you,
and you want to do further work based on a version containing 1 char of 
foreign code

I assume you are in trouble.


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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[Andrew Poelstra]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 07:32:30PM -0600, John Doty wrote:
> 
> On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:20 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
> 
> > 
> >>> But "property" is such a nice, clean, simple building block.  Why
> >>> pollute it by adding more functionality and making it more complex?
> >> 
> >> Because then you can extend the concept without limit. It's like
> >> "function" in mathematics. You can construct functions from
> >> functions. But if such constructs were no longer functions, you'd
> >> get stuck.
> > 
> > To abuse your analogy, our properties is like "constants" in
> > mathematics.  Classes would be "functions".
> 
> Except in the proposal, classes cannot be composed of other classes.
>

That's a trivial change: jumping from a "class" as a collection of
properties to a "class" as collection of properties/classes is an
easy mental jump, and conceptually makes sense.

Jumping from a "property" as a name-value pair to a "property" as
a name-value pair -and- collection of properties, is a big conceptual
change.


> ...
> 
> >  Creating a single object that has to act as both a
> > name-value pair *and* an arbitrary container is not a good idea.
> 
> You offer no reasoned support for this opinion.
>

You're using one word - property - to express two entirely different
concepts. Not only is this difficult to think about, it would be almost
impossible to program without separating the two behind the scenes.

The word "class" is usually a synonym for "set", which is a concept
that invites recursion. "Property", however, is usually a synonym
for "attribute", something that isn't recursive. That's a very
important distinction.

You talk about object-classification failing as a method of AI - but
what you mean is that it fails for /general/ AI. The specific AI we
are talking about - autorouting and autoplacing - already works by
classifying its objects (as vias, traces, components, nets, etc).


Andrew




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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[Armin Faltl]

A collection of constants is a structured constant and a class is not
(only) a constant - well at least to me a structured property sounds
less missleading than the name class. Why doesn't a class include
net topologies, parts etc.? - That's what a true analogon of a class
would be - actually a (sub-)schematic and it's display methods.

Why is the container function "arbitrary" - could a structured property
contain other things than simple or structured properties?

DJ Delorie wrote:

But "property" is such a nice, clean, simple building block.  Why
pollute it by adding more functionality and making it more complex?
  

Because then you can extend the concept without limit. It's like
"function" in mathematics. You can construct functions from
functions. But if such constructs were no longer functions, you'd
get stuck.



To abuse your analogy, our properties is like "constants" in
mathematics.  Classes would be "functions".

A property is like "width = 5" or "impedance = 50".  A class is a
collection of properties, which could include a collection of classes
or whatnot also.  Creating a single object that has to act as both a
name-value pair *and* an arbitrary container is not a good idea.


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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[John Doty]

On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:27 PM, kai-martin knaak wrote:

> read again: Did I write "superclass"?

Yes.

You wrote:

> What do you think, the terms subclass and superclass refer to? 

John Doty  Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com




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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[John Doty]

On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:27 PM, kai-martin knaak wrote:

> read again: Did I write "superclass"?
> Your statement was, that classes do not contain classes anywhere but in OO.

Read again: did I write "classes do not contain classes anywhere but in OO"?

I wrote: "Classes" in OO aren't like classes in any other context.

> I gave five disjunct areas where classes can indeed contain classes.

John Doty  Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com




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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[John Doty]

On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:20 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:

> 
>>> But "property" is such a nice, clean, simple building block.  Why
>>> pollute it by adding more functionality and making it more complex?
>> 
>> Because then you can extend the concept without limit. It's like
>> "function" in mathematics. You can construct functions from
>> functions. But if such constructs were no longer functions, you'd
>> get stuck.
> 
> To abuse your analogy, our properties is like "constants" in
> mathematics.  Classes would be "functions".

Except in the proposal, classes cannot be composed of other classes.

> 
> A property is like "width = 5" or "impedance = 50".  A class is a
> collection of properties, which could include a collection of classes
> or whatnot also.

OK, so now you have two entities where one suffices. How is this simpler?

"Class" is a misleading term in this context. Nets (at best) have properties: 
classification is sloppy thinking. The utter failure of early efforts to base 
AI on classification of objects should surely have taught that to us.

>  Creating a single object that has to act as both a
> name-value pair *and* an arbitrary container is not a good idea.

You offer no reasoned support for this opinion.

John Doty  Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com




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Re: gEDA-user: land pattern generators vs. verifying footprints

[Armin Faltl]

John Griessen wrote:

Bert Timmerman wrote:
Hi all, 



a 1 part library operating a layout service bureau
Take a look at  "The worlds first 



Excuse me for having a rather pessimistic view about this site.




IMHO, this flipped "wikicomponents" coin can go just one of two ways:

Head:

It will work, a bazzillion parts get contributed by thousands of
enthousiastic contributors who will produce an error free repo of parts
data.

And then some day someone will realize that the data contributed is a
goldmine and run away with the stuff (gold).
I just read their self-projection and agree: while the site and it's 
service may be good,
the 1. point in their list appears as a lie to me: "no one owns the 
data" - well, they

own the server and their data model, that are not open - they own even more:
insight into the projects of everyone really using their "My Wiki" or 
teamwork

facilities.

My proposal to land at the edge of the coin: for the data to be owned by 
everyone
instead of "no one", the entire site would need to be downloadable and 
the design
of the site be open source. All the proposed databases in here much more 
look like that.
This and only this would insure, that any attempt to run away with the 
gold (by all of

a sudden increasing fees and dumbing down/add spamming the free stuff)
would turn their copy into ...

The fact that they try to give a false impression on who owns the data 
is a clear
indication, that they no longer need to realize the value of such a 
collection -

that route is planed from the start.

Tbh, trying to make money from good work (and that it is, if the site 
works as intended)
is nothing reprehensible, but to coordinate my own (team-)work, I rather 
rely on

local data that gets overlayed on foreign servers if they are used at all.

2 more cents, Armin



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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[kai-martin knaak]

John Doty wrote:

>> Biology, astronomy, algebra, set theory and database theory all use the
>> concept of subclasses.
> 
> But I've worked in astronomy for decades without ever encountering the
> term "superclass". Nor are "classes" in astronomy associated with
> "methods".

read again: Did I write "superclass"?
Your statement was, that classes do not contain classes anywhere but in OO.
I gave five disjunct areas where classes can indeed contain classes.

---<)kaimartin(>---
-- 
Kai-Martin Knaak
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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[DJ Delorie]

> > But "property" is such a nice, clean, simple building block.  Why
> > pollute it by adding more functionality and making it more complex?
> 
> Because then you can extend the concept without limit. It's like
> "function" in mathematics. You can construct functions from
> functions. But if such constructs were no longer functions, you'd
> get stuck.

To abuse your analogy, our properties is like "constants" in
mathematics.  Classes would be "functions".

A property is like "width = 5" or "impedance = 50".  A class is a
collection of properties, which could include a collection of classes
or whatnot also.  Creating a single object that has to act as both a
name-value pair *and* an arbitrary container is not a good idea.


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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[John Doty]

On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:07 PM, kai-martin knaak wrote:

> John Doty wrote:
> 
>>> What do you think, the terms subclass and superclass refer to?
>> 
>> "Classes" in OO aren't like classes in any other context.
> 
> Biology, astronomy, algebra, set theory and database theory all use the 
> concept of subclasses.

But I've worked in astronomy for decades without ever encountering the term 
"superclass". Nor are "classes" in astronomy associated with "methods".

John Doty  Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com




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gEDA-user: edge4way rules in magic

[Oliver King-Smith]

   I am trying to get some rules programmed into my magic tech file.  In
   particular I want to require metal to encompass the vias by 2um if the
   metal is "wide metal > (10um x 10um)".  Otherwise I only need to
   encompass the vias by 0.8um.  Does anyone know how to specify this in
   the drc section?
   Oliver


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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[al davis]

On Friday 13 August 2010, Armin Faltl wrote:
> I can't give an example on the intricacies of GPL v3 of the
> top of my head, but wanted to write the following to RFS
> regarding putting libraries under GPL instead of LGPL:
> "I want to contribute or give away what I want to and keep
>  my own what I want to keep and if this is not possible with
> a GPL-license on my own library liked to my own app, I just
> won't use GPL!"

I don't know who "RFS" is but any license you grant for your own 
code applies only to those to whom you grant the license.  

If you write some code, and it's yours, you can license it any 
way you want.  If you make it available for download under GPL, 
this does not prevent you from granting any other license to 
anyone, as you choose.  There is no requirement that you assign 
the copyright.


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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[John Doty]

On Aug 13, 2010, at 7:04 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:

> 
> But "property" is such a nice, clean, simple building block.  Why
> pollute it by adding more functionality and making it more complex?

Because then you can extend the concept without limit. It's like "function" in 
mathematics. You can construct functions from functions. But if such constructs 
were no longer functions, you'd get stuck.

John Doty  Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com




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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[kai-martin knaak]

John Doty wrote:

>> What do you think, the terms subclass and superclass refer to?
> 
> "Classes" in OO aren't like classes in any other context.

Biology, astronomy, algebra, set theory and database theory all use the 
concept of subclasses.

---<)kaimartin(>---
-- 
Kai-Martin Knaak
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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[DJ Delorie]

But "property" is such a nice, clean, simple building block.  Why
pollute it by adding more functionality and making it more complex?


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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[John Doty]

On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:54 PM, kai-martin knaak wrote:

> What do you think, the terms subclass and superclass refer to? 

"Classes" in OO aren't like classes in any other context.

The concept of class is superfluous and misleading here, since only one concept 
is needed: property. Much simpler and clearer.

John Doty  Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com




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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[kai-martin knaak]

John Doty wrote:

> It's the difference between ending at "class", or being able to compose
> properties from properties without limit.

What do you think, the terms subclass and superclass refer to? 

---<)kaimartin(>---
-- 
Kai-Martin Knaak
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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[John Doty]

On Aug 13, 2010, at 6:13 PM, Stefan Salewski wrote:

> In my simple mind I consider a set of properties a class. But of course
> we can call it again a property.

It's the difference between ending at "class", or being able to compose 
properties from properties without limit.

John Doty  Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com




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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[Dietmar Schmunkamp]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Am 14.08.2010 01:13, schrieb Stefan Salewski:

> Indeed currently I am still looking for a good reason against that
> proposal. My best candidates: It is not too useful for small projects,
> and it is some work to implement.

I don't think that this is a good argument against it as long as you
don't force small projects to use it. I would see it as an extension to
the current gschem -> pcb flow. If you don't specify anything, you get
the default net attributes as defined in PCB.
> 

> I have to admit that I do not know much about "differential pairs" now,
> but it is very important...

If you go high frequency it's getting important. Related to that are
termination requirements of a given net, carefully select whether the
termination needs to be close to the driver or close to the receiver.
Typically this is a problem a tool can't handle.
> 
> 
> I guess it would be no great deal for smart (but very busy) people like
> Peter C. and DJ, to implement the basic concept. For people not familiar
> with the internals of gschem and PCB like me it may take very long...
> 
I second that, and I read the response from DJ: You don't know how hard
it can be to teach a hardware guy software concepts :-) .


> Best regards
> 
> Stefan Salewski
> 
> 
> 
> 
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- -- 

Mit freundlichen Gruessen

Dietmar Schmunkamp
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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[Stefan Salewski]

On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 17:48 -0600, John Doty wrote:
> On Aug 13, 2010, at 5:39 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
> 
> > 
> >> So why not just have properties, and sets of properties.
> > 
> > A set of properties *is* a class, if you apply the same set of
> > properties to many nets.  Why not let the user pre-define such
> > classes, to make their work easier?
> 
> I suggested that.
> 
> I also suggested considering a set of properties to be a property, not
> a class. Or did you not understand "flattened union". Maybe that was
> too obscure.
> 

In my simple mind I consider a set of properties a class. But of course
we can call it again a property. Or we can use no sets at all, just
single properties. So instead of class/propertyset power one has to
specify "width>25mil, clearance=12mil, color=blue, ...". This is OK, but
I think sets/classes make it easier for users and may save space in data
files, and may make changes easier.

(I know that we can currently assign attributes to nets in gschem, but
my impression is that all touching line segments are one net, so we do
not have subnets. Which we should have. And we should have color
support, a way to see fast which nets segments are "High Current"... So
some internal modification of gschem is necessary.)

Indeed, all which we do is assign a special name/label to some subnets,
like "power_class" or "bypass_class". We do not have to define inside of
gschem what this really means, like "tracewidth=25mil" and
"clearance=12mil". We can define this only in PCB. But I think it is
more intuitive and practical if we can define such sets already in
gschem and transfer that information to PCB (where we may change it if
necessary).

Best regards

Stefan Salewski




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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[kai-martin knaak]

Ben Jackson wrote:

> I'll answer internals questions on geda-dev from anyone who wants to
> ask.

Unfortunately, only approved developers are allowed to ask on geda-dev.

---<)kaimartin(>---
-- 
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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[John Doty]

On Aug 13, 2010, at 5:49 PM, Stefan Salewski wrote:

> On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 19:28 -0400, DJ Delorie wrote:
>>> I guess it would be no great deal for smart (but very busy) people
>>> like Peter C. and DJ, to implement the basic concept. For people not
>>> familiar with the internals of gschem and PCB like me it may take
>>> very long...
>> 
>> I'm quite willing to teach people PCB internals, if it means having
>> more PCB developers.
>> 
>> 
> 
> In my opinion writing some basic documentation about the internal work
> of PCB would be really a good idea. (I can remember that I looked at the
> PCB source code about two years ago: I was very positive surprised about
> the fact that the code was very compact, but I was not able to see the
> basic concepts...)

The same problem applies to gschem/gnetlist. Unfortunately, some of our 
developers take the attitude that dumbing down the (almost supernaturally 
productive) UI is the way to attract more developers. But from where I sit, the 
real problem is that the internals of gschem, gnetlist, and especially libgeda 
are poorly documented. This is especially problematic at the guile scripting 
interface (code for guile functions in C is pretty obscure). I've nibbled at 
this from outside, deducing function from behavior and writing some of my 
findings up, but it would really help if the experts would put in some effort 
here.

Developers who'd be attracted by a dumbed-down UI are exactly the folks I do 
not want to see working on gEDA.

John Doty  Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com




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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[Ben Jackson]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 07:28:10PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote:
> 
> > I guess it would be no great deal for smart (but very busy) people
> > like Peter C. and DJ, to implement the basic concept. For people not
> > familiar with the internals of gschem and PCB like me it may take
> > very long...
> 
> I'm quite willing to teach people PCB internals, if it means having
> more PCB developers.

I'll answer internals questions on geda-dev from anyone who wants to
ask.  Of course I don't spend much time in PCB any more, but I've been
around the block.

-- 
Ben Jackson AD7GD

http://www.ben.com/


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Re: gEDA-user: 3d package to land pattern generator

[kai-martin knaak]

John Griessen wrote:

> It does not matter how lame it is for 3D expressiveness, all that is
> needed is a spartan wire frame outline of a part to get a very accurate
> footprint via automatic means.

IMHO, lameness does matter. 
3D in DXF is so lame, that many CAD applications limit their import/export 
filters to 2D data.

---<)kaimartin(>---
-- 
Kai-Martin Knaak
Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6C0B9F53



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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[Stefan Salewski]

On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 19:28 -0400, DJ Delorie wrote:
> > I guess it would be no great deal for smart (but very busy) people
> > like Peter C. and DJ, to implement the basic concept. For people not
> > familiar with the internals of gschem and PCB like me it may take
> > very long...
> 
> I'm quite willing to teach people PCB internals, if it means having
> more PCB developers.
> 
> 

In my opinion writing some basic documentation about the internal work
of PCB would be really a good idea. (I can remember that I looked at the
PCB source code about two years ago: I was very positive surprised about
the fact that the code was very compact, but I was not able to see the
basic concepts...)

>more PCB developers.

Unfortunately here in Germany most people concerned with electronics are
very lazy, stupid and do not really care about FOSS. Some weeks ago I
visited the kicad developer mailing list -- not much activity from
german people also... 

Sorry.

Stefan Salewski






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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[John Doty]

On Aug 13, 2010, at 5:39 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:

> 
>> So why not just have properties, and sets of properties.
> 
> A set of properties *is* a class, if you apply the same set of
> properties to many nets.  Why not let the user pre-define such
> classes, to make their work easier?

I suggested that.

I also suggested considering a set of properties to be a property, not a class. 
Or did you not understand "flattened union". Maybe that was too obscure.

John Doty  Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com




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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[DJ Delorie]

> So why not just have properties, and sets of properties.

A set of properties *is* a class, if you apply the same set of
properties to many nets.  Why not let the user pre-define such
classes, to make their work easier?


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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[John Doty]

On Aug 13, 2010, at 3:23 PM, Stefan Salewski wrote:

> On Mon, 2010-08-09 at 10:59 -0600, John Doty wrote:
>> Remember, "pcb" isn't the only layout path we support.
>> 
> 
> Yes. But I think the addition of net classes will not really break
> something. Of course it will increase the code size, which is not really
> nice. And it may decrease the working speed of PCB program.
> 
> I have written a short summary of this idea:
> 
> http://ssalewski.de/gEDA-Netclass.html.en

As you noticed, nets have properties, but they don't really have classes in any 
clean sense. So why not just have properties, and sets of properties. The set 
of properties of a net would then be the flattened union of the property 
attributes attached to it.

John Doty  Noqsi Aerospace, Ltd.
http://www.noqsi.com/
j...@noqsi.com




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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[DJ Delorie]

> I guess it would be no great deal for smart (but very busy) people
> like Peter C. and DJ, to implement the basic concept. For people not
> familiar with the internals of gschem and PCB like me it may take
> very long...

I'm quite willing to teach people PCB internals, if it means having
more PCB developers.


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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[Armin Faltl]

Thanks - think I tried to find it on gnu.org - and got probably
distracted

kai-martin knaak wrote:

Armin Faltl wrote:

  

I tried some hours to find an e-mail address of RFS - there must
be a reason it's not public...



google 
	"Richard Stallman" "email"
First hit 
	http://stallman.org/

says
email rms at gnu period org"

---<)kaimartin(>---
  



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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[Stefan Salewski]

On Sat, 2010-08-14 at 00:48 +0200, Dietmar Schmunkamp wrote:
> 
> Stefan,
> 
> I looked at your suggestions about netclasses and I like them.

Indeed currently I am still looking for a good reason against that
proposal. My best candidates: It is not too useful for small projects,
and it is some work to implement.

> What I
> would like to add (and this adds complexity, too), is the notion of
> differential pair (two wires should be same length, but the actual
> length basically is a don't care) or busses and control signals
> (industry standard SDRAM's etc where you have delay constraints of an
> entire bus vs. a single control signal).

Sure! I tried to mention that type short by writing:

>More or less related to this problem are attributes defining pairs of
>traces for differential signals: Maybe we can assign attributes like
>"s...@1" and "s...@2" indicating the pair, which should have a defined
>trace separation and equal length on PCB board. (A similar notation may
>be useful to indicate buses and allow pinswap in the schematic).

I have to admit that I do not know much about "differential pairs" now,
but it is very important...

> Furthermore I have a little objection towards " No chance for unskilled
> people or autorouters", I agree with "unskilled people", but at least a
> subset of the requirements can be translated to autorouter attributes,
> e.g. impedance easily translates to geometry for a defined layer stack
> (including base material, copper width ... ) while other attributes you
> suggest ("short") would only be applicable to an autoplacer (or skilled
> people).
> I know that the target to add net classes AND to support them with
> auto[route|place|...] is very challenging, but nevertheless I think that
> it's worth a try/start a discusssion.
> 
I agree.

I guess it would be no great deal for smart (but very busy) people like
Peter C. and DJ, to implement the basic concept. For people not familiar
with the internals of gschem and PCB like me it may take very long...

Best regards

Stefan Salewski




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Re: gEDA-user: pcb: experience with import-schaematics

[DJ Delorie]

> This should be documented in the manual. 
> Do you accept patches?

Sure.

> PS: The manual still points the reader to sourceforge (in Is Harry
> Eaton still the current maintainer? Haven't read much from him sice
> some time. If so, is the email at jhuapl.edu still valid? The wiki
> page on GSoC-2010 gives a gmail address.

I haven't heard from Harry in a while.  He pops in once in a while to
play with it, but not regularly.


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Re: gEDA-user: 3d package to land pattern generator

[John Griessen]

Dave N6NZ wrote:

On Aug 13, 2010, at 12:51 PM, Felipe De la Puente Christen wrote:

According to my Aerspace related partners, DXF has almost nothing to apport to 
3D CAD.



Yes, well, I can't imagine using dxf for any serious 3D work.  But it does have 
3D entities in the file format.  My earlier
comments w.r.t. a dxf i/o library reflect both of those statements. :)


The thing about DXF is that it has become a defacto standard that is important 
to the EDA and CAD industry
so there is value in using the large herds of manufacturer package data that 
are going
to be coming out in that format defining component part packages.

It does not matter how lame it is for 3D expressiveness, all that is needed is 
a spartan wire frame
outline of a part to get a very accurate footprint via automatic means.  
Automatic means is the only
hope for open source community use, since volunteer effort is such a slim and 
none chance to come by.
It's something automate-able or nothing.

I'll be working on creating some extra "rent paid up" time to help Dave 
automate DXF-to-footprint data.

John Griessen






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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[kai-martin knaak]

Armin Faltl wrote:

> I tried some hours to find an e-mail address of RFS - there must
> be a reason it's not public...

google 
"Richard Stallman" "email"
First hit 
http://stallman.org/
says
email rms at gnu period org"

---<)kaimartin(>---
-- 
Kai-Martin Knaak
Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6C0B9F53



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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[Dietmar Schmunkamp]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Am 13.08.2010 23:23, schrieb Stefan Salewski:
> On Mon, 2010-08-09 at 10:59 -0600, John Doty wrote:
>>  Remember, "pcb" isn't the only layout path we support.
>>
> 
> Yes. But I think the addition of net classes will not really break
> something. Of course it will increase the code size, which is not really
> nice. And it may decrease the working speed of PCB program.
> 
> I have written a short summary of this idea:
> 
> http://ssalewski.de/gEDA-Netclass.html.en
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> geda-user mailing list
> geda-user@moria.seul.org
> http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
> 

Stefan,

I looked at your suggestions about netclasses and I like them. What I
would like to add (and this adds complexity, too), is the notion of
differential pair (two wires should be same length, but the actual
length basically is a don't care) or busses and control signals
(industry standard SDRAM's etc where you have delay constraints of an
entire bus vs. a single control signal).
Furthermore I have a little objection towards " No chance for unskilled
people or autorouters", I agree with "unskilled people", but at least a
subset of the requirements can be translated to autorouter attributes,
e.g. impedance easily translates to geometry for a defined layer stack
(including base material, copper width ... ) while other attributes you
suggest ("short") would only be applicable to an autoplacer (or skilled
people).
I know that the target to add net classes AND to support them with
auto[route|place|...] is very challenging, but nevertheless I think that
it's worth a try/start a discusssion.

- -- 

Mit freundlichen Gruessen

Dietmar Schmunkamp
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.12 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAkxly8wACgkQn22l+QvEah1zVACfQP5orxgMpJCvjbT3bPuxJUjZ
UFYAn3//FoLemiNGwqa75SmMw4HZYn3H
=qvlC
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[Armin Faltl]

Armin Faltl wrote:
IGES is an old US military standard. It means 'Initial Graphics 
Exchange Specification'
and the specification for it is freely available, since it's a work 
from a US government
agency (I got it ;-). As the name says, it was meant as preliminary 
work, but served

it's purpose for decades. Now it's being replaced by STEP...

Sorry, it's not the military... still you here find the seemingly latest 
spec:


http://www.uspro.org/documents/IGES5-3_forDownload.pdf/view


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Re: gEDA-user: pcb: experience with import-schematics

[kai-martin knaak]

Kai-Martin Knaak wrote:

>> Yes please, with "git format-patch" if you can.
> 
> Here you go. 

Did the patch apply?

---<)kaimartin(>---
-- 
Kai-Martin Knaak
Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6C0B9F53



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Re: gEDA-user: GPL-v3 for Open CAD

[Armin Faltl]

John Griessen wrote:

al davis wrote:

On Friday 13 August 2010, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote:

can you give an example, please?



Under GPL-3 you can't make a contribution that applies one of your 
own patents, then sue the users of the package for patent infringement.


Sounds OK for openness so far.  What else?

yup, that's not so bad - what I find bad is, that he's trying to force 
GPL on all
the libs, he thinks he's got the power to do. gnu libc he thinks is not 
a candidate,

since there are too many other libc's.

I'm happy with this, from the moment on, RFS pays all my bills and of 
course all

the bills I might have, from that moment on ;-)


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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[Armin Faltl]

I can't give an example on the intricacies of GPL v3 of the top
of my head, but wanted to write the following to RFS regarding
putting libraries under GPL instead of LGPL:
"I want to contribute or give away what I want to and keep
my own what I want to keep and if this is not possible with a
GPL-license on my own library liked to my own app, I just won't use GPL!"

I tried some hours to find an e-mail address of RFS - there must
be a reason it's not public...

Kai-Martin Knaak wrote:

Steven Michalske wrote:

  

but version 3 has clauses that are very restrictive to others
that want to contirbute,



-v
can you give an example, please?

--<)kaimartin(>---
  



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Re: gEDA-user: pcb: experience with import-schaematics

[kai-martin knaak]

DJ Delorie wrote:

>> I found that unlike gsch2pcb import did not remove footprints of deleted
>> components from the existing layout. Is this deliberate? Or is it just a
>> feature to be?
> 
> Deliberate.  All elements that shouldn't be there are selected, so you
> can hit "Delete" to delete them, or not.

This should be documented in the manual. 
Do you accept patches?

---<)kaimartin(>---

PS: The manual still points the reader to sourceforge (in 
Is Harry Eaton still the current maintainer? Haven't read much from him sice 
some time. If so, is the email at jhuapl.edu still valid? The wiki page on 
GSoC-2010 gives a gmail address.
-- 
Kai-Martin Knaak
Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6C0B9F53



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gEDA-user: GPL-v3 for Open CAD

[John Griessen]

al davis wrote:

On Friday 13 August 2010, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote:

can you give an example, please?



Under GPL-3 you can't make a contribution that applies one of 
your own patents, then sue the users of the package for patent 
infringement.


Sounds OK for openness so far.  What else?

John


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gEDA-user: 3d package to land pattern generator

[John Griessen]

Armin Faltl wrote:

IGES is an old US military standard. It means 'Initial Graphics Exchange 
Specification'
and the specification for it is freely available, since it's a work from 
a US government
agency (I got it ;-). As the name says, it was meant as preliminary 
work, but served

it's purpose for decades. Now it's being replaced by STEP...

For the reason that STEP costs a lot of money, I wonder how the FreeCAD 
guys
want to keep the promisse to provide import and export for it - maybe a 
feature

of the OpenCASCADE kernel - but how did they?


Not sure why, but they recommended it when wanting to do anything parametric
a couple of months ago... I couldn't get enough to function then.
Sounds like time to revisit their forums.  Wish they would open up to
an email list instead of isolated forum website for all contact.

John
--
Ecosensory   Austin TX


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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[al davis]

On Friday 13 August 2010, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote:
> can you give an example, please?


Under GPL-3 you can't make a contribution that applies one of 
your own patents, then sue the users of the package for patent 
infringement.


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gEDA-user: 3D package data to land pattern generator

[John Griessen]

Felipe De la Puente Christen wrote:

Why not using IDES/STEP file format.


He's looking for some way to have a 3D library at least be viewable without
installing a giant amount of code from OpenCascade.

John


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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[Armin Faltl]

Dave N6NZ wrote:

I don't know much about 3D file formats.  I know stl is basically a bag of 
triangles, and I think stl is also.  So while you can communicate a hull, you 
can't do much more. No parametric information, no material information, no 
joint information, etc.  Not sure about iges, I know pretty much nothing about 
it.
  
IGES is an old US military standard. It means 'Initial Graphics Exchange 
Specification'
and the specification for it is freely available, since it's a work from 
a US government
agency (I got it ;-). As the name says, it was meant as preliminary 
work, but served

it's purpose for decades. Now it's being replaced by STEP...

For the reason that STEP costs a lot of money, I wonder how the FreeCAD guys
want to keep the promisse to provide import and export for it - maybe a 
feature

of the OpenCASCADE kernel - but how did they?


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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[John Griessen]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Peter Clifton  wrote:

On Thu, 2010-08-12 at 09:17 -0500, John Griessen wrote:

OpenNurbs.org has the code, public domain.  He's considering forking
and licensing it GPL.

IMO, that sounds like quite an aggressive thing to do to a code base..
particularly forking, then choosing a less permissive license to release
under.


He finds there is little community involved using it and no one improving the 
code
except the original commercial publisher for bug fixes.  That's
the only reason for a fork.

John


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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[Bert Timmerman]

Hi all, 

> -Original Message-
> From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org 
> [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of 
> kai-martin knaak
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 11:43 PM
> To: geda-u...@seul.org
> Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
> 
> Felipe De la Puente Christen wrote:
> 
> > Why not using IDES/STEP file format.
> 
> Because STEP is a hell of a standard and non-free, too. It 
> encompasses much more than 3D mechanical data and aims to 
> cover every aspect of every product. The standard itself is 
> closed source. You have to pay real money and sign a NDA 
> document to receive a copy. 
> 
> I once tried figure, how a cube as a 3D equivalent to 
> "hello-world" would look like in STEP format. There was lots 
> and lots information available _on_ STEP but none on the 
> actual syntax.
> 
> Going the freecad way would avoid this kind of hassle. 
> 
> 
> > According to my Aerspace related partners, DXF has almost 
> nothing to 
> > apport to 3D CAD.
>  
> true.
> 
> ---<)kaimrtin(>---
> --
> Kai-Martin Knaak
> Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel:
> http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6C0B9F53
> 
> 

Intermediate Data Format (IDF) may be a viable solution, some main stream
CAD applications  use it or have import/export functionality for IDF.

The format is described here:

http://www.simplifiedsolutionsinc.com/images/idf_v20_spec.pdf

Or have a google with "IDF CAD".

Happy reading.

Kind regards,

Bert Timmerman.



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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[Dave N6NZ]

On Aug 13, 2010, at 12:51 PM, Felipe De la Puente Christen wrote:

> On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 11:21 -0700, Dave N6NZ wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I've been watching FOSS 3D CAD for a while, and until FreeCAD came along the 
>> outlook was pretty depressing.  The FreeCAD guys, however, are making 
>> progress a bullet-train speed.  My first instinct would be to find a way to 
>> help them.
>> 
>> -dave
>> 



> 
> According to my Aerspace related partners, DXF has almost nothing to
> apport to 3D CAD.
> 

Yes, well, I can't imagine using dxf for any serious 3D work.  But it does have 
3D entities in the file format.  My earlier comments w.r.t. a dxf i/o library 
reflect both of those statements. :)

I don't know much about 3D file formats.  I know stl is basically a bag of 
triangles, and I think stl is also.  So while you can communicate a hull, you 
can't do much more. No parametric information, no material information, no 
joint information, etc.  Not sure about iges, I know pretty much nothing about 
it.

-dave



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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[kai-martin knaak]

Felipe De la Puente Christen wrote:

> Why not using IDES/STEP file format.

Because STEP is a hell of a standard and non-free, too. It encompasses much 
more than 3D mechanical data and aims to cover every aspect of every 
product. The standard itself is closed source. You have to pay real money 
and sign a NDA document to receive a copy. 

I once tried figure, how a cube as a 3D equivalent to "hello-world" would 
look like in STEP format. There was lots and lots information available _on_ 
STEP but none on the actual syntax.

Going the freecad way would avoid this kind of hassle. 


> According to my Aerspace related partners, DXF has almost nothing to
> apport to 3D CAD.
 
true.

---<)kaimrtin(>---
-- 
Kai-Martin Knaak
Öffentlicher PGP-Schlüssel:
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x6C0B9F53



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Re: gEDA-user: wishful UI

[Stefan Salewski]

On Mon, 2010-08-09 at 10:59 -0600, John Doty wrote:
>  Remember, "pcb" isn't the only layout path we support.
> 

Yes. But I think the addition of net classes will not really break
something. Of course it will increase the code size, which is not really
nice. And it may decrease the working speed of PCB program.

I have written a short summary of this idea:

http://ssalewski.de/gEDA-Netclass.html.en




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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[Felipe De la Puente Christen]

On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 11:21 -0700, Dave N6NZ wrote:

> 
> I've been watching FOSS 3D CAD for a while, and until FreeCAD came along the 
> outlook was pretty depressing.  The FreeCAD guys, however, are making 
> progress a bullet-train speed.  My first instinct would be to find a way to 
> help them.
> 
> -dave
> 

Why not using IDES/STEP file format. I've seen it's pretty popular in
the Aerospace/Mechanics 3D models interchange. And IMO STEP is the most
successfully supported format in FOSS so far.

Apps:

brlcad
freecad
heekscad
salome(not that free, but claims to be Open source)
and any toolchain based on Open Cascade
there's also python Open Cascade(pyOCC) python bindings.

According to my Aerspace related partners, DXF has almost nothing to
apport to 3D CAD.

Best Regards, Felipe.

> 
> 
> 
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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[kai-martin knaak]

Dave N6NZ wrote:

> I've been watching FOSS 3D CAD for a while, and until FreeCAD came along
> the outlook was pretty depressing.  The FreeCAD guys, however, are making
> progress a bullet-train speed.  My first instinct would be to find a way
> to help them.
 
If freecad keeps growing at the current rate, it will be useful for decent 
applications pretty soon. I get the impression that they put lots of serious 
thought into the infrastructure. Freecad format would be the perfect target 
for 3D import/export of pcb layout data. Much more powerful than any local 
eye candy.

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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[Dave N6NZ]

On Aug 12, 2010, at 7:17 AM, John Griessen wrote:

> 
> certain 3D entities are *not* documented,
>> they are binary blobs and you can only get the spec by paying for a license 
>> from Autocad and signing an NDA.  So no open source
>> dxf library will ever be able to handle all of dxf.  My immediate goal is to 
>> write a library that can make sense of all 2D
>> information in a complete and coherent way, provide a Pythonic interface for 
>> reading and writing dxf, and gracefully ignore or
>> perhaps read-and-blobify anything it doesn't understand without crashing or 
>> hanging.
> 
> Sounds good.  Does the blobify function you imagine get the physical max 
> boundaries of the unknown correct?

My near-term goals are pretty limited.  Beyond processing 2D intelligently and 
presenting a clean object-oriented interface to 2D entities, my goals are 
simply to not choke, and to gather information for a single entity all into one 
place, without trying to process intelligently -- more of a "here it is if you 
know what to do with it". 

> I know someone else working on getting 3D usable by FOSS tools by way of a 
> common open format
> available as a standard or defacto standard.  In electronics it seems defacto 
> standards are better than official ones, so...
> He's looking at Rhino's OpenNurbs definitions in c++.  OpenNurbs.org has the 
> code, public domain.  He's considering forking
> and licensing it GPL.

I've been watching FOSS 3D CAD for a while, and until FreeCAD came along the 
outlook was pretty depressing.  The FreeCAD guys, however, are making progress 
a bullet-train speed.  My first instinct would be to find a way to help them.

-dave




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Re: gEDA-user: [OT] Fluorescent tube help

[Mike Bushroe]

   I do not know much about fluorescent tube ballasts, but I can give some
   general guesses.
   1) Wattage is going to relate to total amount of heat dissipation that
   the ballast can handle.
   2) Tube length (each in parallel or both in series) relates to the
   voltage needed to first strike and arc, and then maintain the arc that
   gets converted into light.
   3) Tube diameter relates to steady state current needed to change the
   full width of the tubes. This would be summed (by area, nit diameter)
   for tubes in parallel.
   Looking on McMasters-Car, you can pull the same trick of double the
   input voltage, double the output voltage, two tubes in series on a
   ballast only rated for one:
   [1]http://www.mcmaster.com/?orderview=new#fluorescent-ballasts/=8dz6aa
   NOTE: this is only rates for 120V mains voltage. All the listings at
   MaMasters for 208 or 240 are for compact fluorescent folded tubes.
   It seems that the F8T5 tube is only directly supported on 120V
   ballasts. You might do better to buy a cheap 2 tube, 120V mains F8T5
   ballast and a 240 to 120 transformer. Or just buy a brand new two tube
   lamp at the store and swap for the high UV bulbs.
   Mike

References

   1. http://www.mcmaster.com/?orderview=new#fluorescent-ballasts/=8dz6aa


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Re: gEDA-user: help with gwave svn-REV2444

[Stefan Salewski]

On Fri, 2010-08-13 at 12:19 +0100, sibu xolo wrote:
> Dear All,
> 
> I have been trying to compile the program gwave (from svn ) 

gwave is one of the most demanding tools of geda suite, for building
from sources. In my opinion, if your goal is to compile latest versions
from sources, then some knowledge and own work (at least google search
for error messages) may be helpful (may be related to guile-gtk?)

You may look at a few (old) bug reports of gentoo bug database:

http://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=ALL+gwave

This one was one very demanding:

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=293397






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Re: gEDA-user: help with gwave svn-REV2444

[kai-martin knaak]

sibu xolo wrote:

> `sgtk_wrap_gtkobj'
> wavelist.o: In function `get_gwave_tooltips':
> $SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src/wavelist.c:417: undefined reference to
> `sgtk_get_gtkobj'
> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
> make[4]: *** [gwave] Error 1
> make[4]: Leaving directory `$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src'
> make[3]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
> make[3]: Leaving directory `$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src'
> make[2]: *** [all] Error 2
> make[2]: Leaving directory `$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src'
> make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
> make[1]: Leaving directory `$SOURCES/gwave/trunk'
> make: *** [all] Error 2

stab in the dark: Did you install all the *-dev packages to the GTK stuff?

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gEDA-user: help with gwave svn-REV2444

[sibu xolo]

Dear All,

I have been trying to compile the program gwave (from svn ) 
on a machine with the following features:-
-CPU:- AMD64-2cores
-OS-linux (cblfs) kernel-2.6.34, gcc-4.4.2, kde-4.4.5
-gtk:- gtk-2.16.1, guile-gnome-platform-2.16.1  and other dependencies
-gnucap:curent 2009-stuff at :-http://www.gnucap.org/devel/

However make fails with the following :-


gcc -m64 -fPIC -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I.. -I.. -I../spicefile -I../src  -
I/gwOLD/include  -I/opt/gEDA2/include -I/opt/gnomeC++/include -I/usr/include -
I/usr/X11R7.5/include -I/usr/local/octave/include -I/opt/gwOLD/include/gtk-2.0 
-I/opt/gwOLD/lib/gtk-2.0/include -I/usr/include/atk-1.0 -I/usr/include/cairo -
I/usr/include/pango-1.0 -I/usr/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/lib/glib-2.0/include -
I/usr/include/freetype2 -I/usr/include/libpng12 -
I/usr/X11R7.5/include/pixman-1 -I/usr/X11R7.5/include -pthread -
DDATADIR=\"/opt/gEDA2/share\" -DBINGWAVE=\"/opt/gEDA2/bin/gwave\"  -g -O2 -MT 
GtkTable_indel.o -MD -MP -MF .deps/GtkTable_indel.Tpo -c -o GtkTable_indel.o 
GtkTable_indel.c
mv -f .deps/GtkTable_indel.Tpo .deps/GtkTable_indel.Po
gcc -m64 -fPIC -I/opt/gwOLD/include/gtk-2.0 -I/opt/gwOLD/lib/gtk-2.0/include -
I/usr/include/atk-1.0 -I/usr/include/cairo -I/usr/include/pango-1.0 -
I/usr/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/lib/glib-2.0/include -I/usr/include/freetype2 -
I/usr/include/libpng12 -I/usr/X11R7.5/include/pixman-1 -I/usr/X11R7.5/include   
  
-pthread -DDATADIR=\"/opt/gEDA2/share\" -DBINGWAVE=\"/opt/gEDA2/bin/gwave\"  -
g -O2 -pthread  -lguile -lltdl -lgmp -lcrypt -lm -lltdl -L/opt/gwOLD/lib  -
L/opt/gEDA2/lib -L/opt/gwEDA2/lib\guile-gnome-2 -L/opt/gnomeC++/lib -L/usr/lib 
-L/usr/X11R7.5/lib -L/usr/local/octave/lib -o gwave cmd.o wavewin.o draw.o 
gwave.o event.o gtkmisc.o pixmaps.o wavelist.o dnd.o scwm_guile.o guile-
compat.o init_scheme_string.o wavepanel.o rgeval.o xgserver.o measurebtn.o 
GtkTable_indel.o ../spicefile/libspicefile.a  -L/opt/gwOLD/lib -lgtk-x11-2.0 -
lgdk-x11-2.0 -latk-1.0 -lgio-2.0 -lpangoft2-1.0 -lgdk_pixbuf-2.0 -
lpangocairo-1.0 -lcairo -lpango-1.0 -lfreetype -lfontconfig -lgobject-2.0 -
lgmodule-2.0 -lglib-2.0 
cmd.o: In function `visiblewave_button':
$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src/cmd.c:632: undefined reference to `sgtk_wrap_gtkobj'
wavewin.o: In function `get_wavewin_menubar':
$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src/wavewin.c:334: undefined reference to 
`sgtk_wrap_gtkobj'
wavewin.o: In function `get_wavewin_toolbar':
$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src/wavewin.c:326: undefined reference to 
`sgtk_wrap_gtkobj'
wavewin.o: In function `get_wavewin':
$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src/wavewin.c:317: undefined reference to 
`sgtk_wrap_gtkobj'
event.o: In function `button_press_handler':
$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src/event.c:307: undefined reference to 
`sgtk_gdk_event_info'
$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src/event.c:307: undefined reference to `sgtk_boxed2scm'
gtkmisc.o: In function `gtk_tooltips_enabled_p':
$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src/gtkmisc.c:294: undefined reference to 
`sgtk_is_a_gtkobj'
$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src/gtkmisc.c:294: undefined reference to 
`sgtk_get_gtkobj'
wavelist.o: In function `get_gwave_tooltips':
$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src/wavelist.c:416: undefined reference to 
`sgtk_is_a_gtkobj'
wavelist.o: In function `wavefile_listwin_menubar':
$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src/wavelist.c:717: undefined reference to 
`sgtk_wrap_gtkobj'
wavelist.o: In function `get_gwave_tooltips':
$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src/wavelist.c:417: undefined reference to 
`sgtk_get_gtkobj'
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
make[4]: *** [gwave] Error 1
make[4]: Leaving directory `$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src'
make[3]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[3]: Leaving directory `$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src'
make[2]: *** [all] Error 2
make[2]: Leaving directory `$SOURCES/gwave/trunk/src'
make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `$SOURCES/gwave/trunk'
make: *** [all] Error 2

##

Advice on where I am going wrong/what are needed 
to compile this program  would be much appreciated.


Yours sincerely
SibuXolo


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Re: gEDA-user: [OT] Fluorescent tube help

[Chris Smith]

David Smith wrote:
> 
> From my limited knowledge of how fluorescent tubes work...
> 
> During the start phase, the starter short-circuits the tube allowing
> current to flow through the starter and the heating filaments at the
> ends of the tube.  If you put two tubes in series and the starter is
> integrated into the ballast, how do you wire them so that this mechanism
> still works?  The starter won't be able to heat one end of each tube.

No, each tube has its own starter and the two tube+starter pairs are
wired in series with a single ballast.  I understand that this is a
common arrangement for tubes shorter than 2 feet in length.

The box has obviously been designed to work this way, and it does work
fine.  I'm just not sure that the ballast is correct, given that it's
only rated for 13W and is running two 8W tubes.

Chris
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Re: gEDA-user: [OT] Fluorescent tube help

[Chris Smith]

John Griessen wrote:
> 
> If you can get the same bulbs and it's not expensive, run them and maybe
> they burn out
> and who cares, as long as you have some good insulation protection from
> the HV.

I guess so, it's just, well... I'd like to _know_. :)

> You could try DJ's UV LED methods and skip the hassle and danger?
> http://www.delorie.com/pcb/uvled/

It's an idea for the future, but to be honest making my own isn't the
goal right now, particularly as the box I have works -- I just don't
know if it's working as well as it should.

> Long tubes are a bad shape for exposing photomask anyway.
> A point source gives better edges.  Maybe your old setup was for erasing
> ROMS?

No, it's definitely an exposure box -- an old RS 555-279.  All the
exposure boxes I've seen for sale have used tubes.

Chris
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Re: gEDA-user: [OT] Fluorescent tube help

[David Smith]

Chris Smith wrote:
> I recently purchased an old, second-hand UV exposure box to try making
> PCBs at home.  One of the tubes has started to fail and in replacing
> them I have noticed something odd: the box takes two 12" 8W T5 tubes,
> but has only a single 13W switch-start ballast.  I assumed that a
> previous owner uprated the tubes without changing the ballast, but in
> looking for a replacement I have become stuck.
> 
> 2. two tubes can be wired in series here in the UK because of the higher
> mains voltage, but the suggestion is that a special ballast might be
> needed.  Again, no explanation why.

>From my limited knowledge of how fluorescent tubes work...

During the start phase, the starter short-circuits the tube allowing
current to flow through the starter and the heating filaments at the
ends of the tube.  If you put two tubes in series and the starter is
integrated into the ballast, how do you wire them so that this mechanism
still works?  The starter won't be able to heat one end of each tube.



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Re: gEDA-user: pcb: experience with import-schematics

[Kai-Martin Knaak]

bump.

> More generally: What config files does import schematics look at?

The import feature needs a bit more documentation.
 
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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[Kai-Martin Knaak]

Steven Michalske wrote:

> but version 3 has clauses that are very restrictive to others
> that want to contirbute,

-v
can you give an example, please?

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Re: gEDA-user: I think there is an error

[Kai-Martin Knaak]

c_mi...@lycos.com wrote:

> In the PCB quick reference card, the dimensions are indicated as 
> 1/100 mils. This is clearly wrong. It should be 1/100 inch or 10 mils.

1/100 mil is correct. 
See http://pcb.gpleda.org/pcb-cvs/pcb.html#File-Syntax

Note, there is a depreciated but still supported syntax with round brackets. 
These dimensions are in mil, i.e. 1/1000 inch.
 
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gEDA-user: I think there is an error

[c_mitra]

In the PCB quick reference card, the dimensions are indicated as 1/100 mils. 
This is clearly wrong. It should be 1/100 inch or 10 mils.

OR, Am I missing something?

C K M

- Original Message -
From: geda-user-requ...@moria.seul.org
To: "c mitra" 
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 1:26:56 PM GMT +05:30 Chennai, Kolkata, Mumbai, 
New Delhi
Subject: Welcome to the "geda-user" mailing list

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Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report

[Bert Timmerman]

 

> -Original Message-
> From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org 
> [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Steven 
> Michalske
> Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 8:19 AM
> To: gEDA user mailing list
> Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Commercial CAD, land pattern generators report
> 
> Its public domain, thats very free, GPL has had is day as a 
> free license, but version 3 has clauses that are very 
> restrictive to others that want to contirbute, i no longer 
> will even consider working on GPL
> v3 code.
> 
> 

+1



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