Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 14:47:03 -0500, evan foss wrote: What about brlcad? It has been in development for decades on Unix and now quite a while on Linux. http://my.brlcad.org/ the package's primary purpose continues to be the support of (1) ballistic and (2) electromagnetic analyses. \ In addition, the user interface is not very intuitive. A simple cylindrical mug takes 14 pages in the manual. The twibright man, Kulhavy figured out how to use it for CAD. I saw one comment from the maintainers on a IRC chat record that he was quick! (at learning how to get anything out of BRLCAD...) John G -- Ecosensory Austin TX ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Dec 2, 2007, at 7:40 PM, Peter Clifton wrote: This is getting less useful, but more pretty.. http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~pcjc2/geda/gerbv_GL.png This uses Cairo to render into a memory buffer, and then we use that on a GL context created with GtkGLExt. This allows 3D perspective views (if we want), and potentially introduces a way to bypass slow rendering. Whilst zooming (in at least), it is possible to use the same textures, letting OpenGL zoom right in, and then redraw the texture at this resolution (I've not tried to implement this yet, I'm just rendering at reasonable resolution once, then using that). This isn't so helpful with zooming out unfortunately, as we don't particularly want to cache a texture of the whole board at very fine resolution. I mainly knocked this up to play with some OpenGL coding, and as a test for a 3D SpaceNavigator joystick (6 axis, used for navigating 3D objects / worlds). For what it's worth, I think this is amazingly cool. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 07:12 +0100, Bert Timmerman wrote: Hi Peter, On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 02:39 +, Peter Clifton wrote: I do have the urge (but not time) to find some 3D models for components. I do happen to have made some 400+ 3D models of components with Autocad for the purpose of just being able to check on height dimensions, the models can be exported as SAT files (or maybe VRML) if you will have them, and if this is a usable format on *nix. Cool.. Its good to hear that there might be some nice models available in the community. I've got very limited knowledge of 3D CAD formats, so don't really know what would be easy to use. I'm tentatively guessing that a board export as VRML with commands to place the component models appropriately would be a more efficient use of time than trying to code a VRML parser and 3D model viewer from scratch. I don't know if gerbv is the way to go 3D. IMHO, it's just a 2D derivative of a pcb file. Its probably not the place for a full 3D preview, certainly. I was looking at GL as a hardware accelerated path for scaling images, and the perspective view was a nice eye-candy bonus. I think the *knowledge* should be implemented as early in the design process as economically possible, and where applicable. This probably ties in to the idea of having a parts database, rather than just using symbol + footprint matched combinations. Can you import VRML into mechanical CAD? -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 13:50:30 +, Peter Clifton wrote: Can you import VRML into mechanical CAD? My CAD application, varicad, can't. Varicad seems to be the only serious 3D-CAD available for linux. I would be nice, if pcb could talk to it. I had good import/export success with the step format (ISO 103030). IGES should work too. ---(kaimartin)--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
Bert Timmerman wrote: It would be to rough for eye-candy, and good enough for checking whether stuff on a pcb fits in a casing of some sort. Just the rough look would be high value in planning and avoiding mistakes... Importing a rough looking model into a blender scene being used to design a box, wiring or flat flex cable routes, etc. would be a boon. So, how fast could you hook pcb to blender? (Just kidding, sort of...) I've not used blender.. doing this properly as a 3D model is going to be a lot more work than a quick trick to use OpenGL for rendering the image of the board. Now that would be an exporter for pcb ;-) And a heck of a dependency for the average user. But, more realistically, it could be a pcb exporter plugin! :-) Blender has python scripting...it's not so outrageous to think of a pcb plugin that would export courtyard shapes in a group, so you use them with Blender and the CAD scripts for setting metric or english grids and measuring distances in the 3d scene... I just like to start rumor-like ideas percolating, not that me or anyone else will find time to execute any of it tomorrow... :-) John Griessen -- Ecosensory Austin TX ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:39 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Can you import VRML into mechanical CAD? My CAD application, varicad, can't. Varicad seems to be the only serious 3D-CAD available for linux. I would be nice, if pcb could talk to it. I'd call BRLCAD pretty serious. I wonder if the STL file format is appropriate for this application. I have the specs for both versions of STL here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Monday 03 December 2007 14:39:18 Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 13:50:30 +, Peter Clifton wrote: Can you import VRML into mechanical CAD? My CAD application, varicad, can't. Varicad seems to be the only serious 3D-CAD available for linux. I would be nice, if pcb could talk to it. ProEngineer works well on Linux -- it's used in the Engineering department here on OpenSuse 10.2 boxes. Peter -- Peter Brett Electronic Systems Engineer Integral Informatics Ltd signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Dec 3, 2007 1:24 PM, Dave McGuire [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Dec 3, 2007, at 9:39 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Can you import VRML into mechanical CAD? My CAD application, varicad, can't. Varicad seems to be the only serious 3D-CAD available for linux. I would be nice, if pcb could talk to it. I'd call BRLCAD pretty serious. I wonder if the STL file format is appropriate for this application. I have the specs for both versions of STL here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user Oops. That will teach me to comment before reading the whole thing. -- http://www.coe.neu.edu/~efoss/ http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Dec 3, 2007 9:39 AM, Kai-Martin Knaak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 13:50:30 +, Peter Clifton wrote: Can you import VRML into mechanical CAD? My CAD application, varicad, can't. Varicad seems to be the only serious 3D-CAD available for linux. I would be nice, if pcb could talk to it. What about brlcad? It has been in development for decades on Unix and now quite a while on Linux. http://my.brlcad.org/ I had good import/export success with the step format (ISO 103030). IGES should work too. ---(kaimartin)--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get -- http://www.coe.neu.edu/~efoss/ http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 19:22:52 +, Peter TB Brett wrote: My CAD application, varicad, can't. Varicad seems to be the only serious 3D-CAD available for linux. I would be nice, if pcb could talk to it. ProEngineer works well on Linux -- it's used in the Engineering department here on OpenSuse 10.2 boxes. I didn't know about that one. ---(kaimartin)--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak tel: +49-511-762-2895 Universität Hannover, Inst. für Quantenoptik fax: +49-511-762-2211 Welfengarten 1, 30167 Hannover http://www.iqo.uni-hannover.de GPG key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=Knaak+kmkop=get ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Dec 3, 2007, at 11:28 PM, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: In addition, the user interface is not very intuitive. A simple cylindrical mug takes 14 pages in the manual. True. This is often the case for very powerful software, though. One doesn't do serious 3D work without cracking a manual. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Dec 2, 2007 7:40 PM, Peter Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2007-11-30 at 15:10 +, Peter Clifton wrote: Here is another teaser.. http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~pcjc2/geda/gerbv_translucent.png And another... This is getting less useful, but more pretty.. http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~pcjc2/geda/gerbv_GL.png This uses Cairo to render into a memory buffer, and then we use that on a GL context created with GtkGLExt. This allows 3D perspective views (if we want), and potentially introduces a way to bypass slow rendering. Whilst zooming (in at least), it is possible to use the same textures, letting OpenGL zoom right in, and then redraw the texture at this resolution (I've not tried to implement this yet, I'm just rendering at reasonable resolution once, then using that). This isn't so helpful with zooming out unfortunately, as we don't particularly want to cache a texture of the whole board at very fine resolution. I mainly knocked this up to play with some OpenGL coding, and as a test for a 3D SpaceNavigator joystick (6 axis, used for navigating 3D objects / worlds). -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) That is simply COOL. -- http://www.coe.neu.edu/~efoss/ http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
Peter Clifton wrote: This uses Cairo to render into a memory buffer, and then we use that on a GL context created with GtkGLExt. I mainly knocked this up to play with some OpenGL coding, and as a test for a 3D SpaceNavigator joystick (6 axis, used for navigating 3D objects / worlds). Wow, going 3D is that easy you did it in a day? The 3d of several planes at heights would be a good 3D model of a stuffed board...for box planning purposes... So, how fast could you hook pcb to blender? (Just kidding, sort of...) John G -- Ecosensory ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
Do you have the option of disabling the opengl code at run time if you want or is it compiled in? -- http://www.coe.neu.edu/~efoss/ http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Sun, 2007-12-02 at 19:18 -0600, John Griessen wrote: Peter Clifton wrote: This uses Cairo to render into a memory buffer, and then we use that on a GL context created with GtkGLExt. I mainly knocked this up to play with some OpenGL coding, and as a test for a 3D SpaceNavigator joystick (6 axis, used for navigating 3D objects / worlds). Wow, going 3D is that easy you did it in a day? Its not 3D really, its a plane with a painted texture on it. If you wanted tracks with height, extruded from copper, THAT would take serious work ;) Its also rough around the edges.. I need to fix the code which allocates enough memory to render a given size of board. (For playing so far, I just allocated enough memory for the board I was testing with) The 3d of several planes at heights would be a good 3D model of a stuffed board...for box planning purposes... I was thinking it would be easy enough to do the layer stackup in GL, assuming we depth-sort them. That is inexpensive for our application... expensive for 3D geometry in a big un-ordered data-set. I do have the urge (but not time) to find some 3D models for components. So, how fast could you hook pcb to blender? (Just kidding, sort of...) I've not used blender.. doing this properly as a 3D model is going to be a lot more work than a quick trick to use OpenGL for rendering the image of the board. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Sun, 2007-12-02 at 20:42 -0500, evan foss wrote: Do you have the option of disabling the opengl code at run time if you want or is it compiled in? Not only is it compiled in, the board size is hard-coded. (Its a demo so far..) I wanted to see how fast it might work with different rendering schemes. I'd have posted code if it wasn't full of _evil_ hacks at the moment. Once I've a better feel for the direction this might go in, I can tidy up the code and make it useful. Surprisingly, it wouldn't be too hard to switch out the GL code if desired. You just replace some setup code, and bits of the expose, configure and realize handlers for the drawing area. The one rendering method which I wanted to try out (but haven't had satisfactory results from yet) is using the cairo-glitz backend to make cairo-calls do native OpenGL things. It was even slower than native Cairo when I tried... felt like it must have been hitting loads of software fallbacks in mesa. Whether the 3D has any useful purpose other than looking bling and to help me learn little GL programming, is debatable. Still.. many packages can / do provide 3D board views.. I'm just not sure if gerbv is the right place for it. Best wishes, -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
On Dec 2, 2007 9:47 PM, Peter Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 2007-12-02 at 20:42 -0500, evan foss wrote: Do you have the option of disabling the opengl code at run time if you want or is it compiled in? Not only is it compiled in, the board size is hard-coded. (Its a demo so far..) I wanted to see how fast it might work with different rendering schemes. I'd have posted code if it wasn't full of _evil_ hacks at the moment. Once I've a better feel for the direction this might go in, I can tidy up the code and make it useful. Surprisingly, it wouldn't be too hard to switch out the GL code if desired. You just replace some setup code, and bits of the expose, configure and realize handlers for the drawing area. The one rendering method which I wanted to try out (but haven't had satisfactory results from yet) is using the cairo-glitz backend to make cairo-calls do native OpenGL things. It was even slower than native Cairo when I tried... felt like it must have been hitting loads of software fallbacks in mesa. Whether the 3D has any useful purpose other than looking bling and to help me learn little GL programming, is debatable. Still.. many packages can / do provide 3D board views.. I'm just not sure if gerbv is the right place for it. Best wishes, -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Ok just curious thanks. -- http://www.coe.neu.edu/~efoss/ http://evanfoss.googlepages.com/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Gerbv with OpenGL
Hi Peter, On Mon, 2007-12-03 at 02:39 +, Peter Clifton wrote: I do have the urge (but not time) to find some 3D models for components. I do happen to have made some 400+ 3D models of components with Autocad for the purpose of just being able to check on height dimensions, the models can be exported as SAT files (or maybe VRML) if you will have them, and if this is a usable format on *nix. I don't know if gerbv is the way to go 3D. IMHO, it's just a 2D derivative of a pcb file. I think the *knowledge* should be implemented as early in the design process as economically possible, and where applicable. In this regard it would have to be pcb as gschem has no knowledge of geometry (I don't feel the urge to draw vias in geschem). Maybe one has to add a height parameter in the footprints, implemented as an attribute, as not to break the current file format. It would the be relative easy to extrude a courtyard outline (width = 0) to the given height, resulting in cubes and cylinders of various height. It would be to rough for eye-candy, and good enough for checking whether stuff on a pcb fits in a casing of some sort. So, how fast could you hook pcb to blender? (Just kidding, sort of...) I've not used blender.. doing this properly as a 3D model is going to be a lot more work than a quick trick to use OpenGL for rendering the image of the board. Now that would be an exporter for pcb ;-) And a heck of a dependency for the average user. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
