Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:36:33 +1000 Stephen Ecob silicon.on.inspirat...@gmail.com wrote: A few hours in the future, Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 09:52:19AM +1000, Stephen Ecob wrote: A few hours in the future, Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: * Hide all layers button * Show all layers button These would be easy enough to add to the widget. Just tack an `All Layers' entry below the other non-selectable entries. Whether there would be demand for this, I don't know. Would it affect the pins, pads and via layers? Would it affect the solder mask layer? Why would you want to hide everything? Often I want to see one layer alone, so it would be convenient to be able to hide all and then show a single layer, using just 2 clicks. In your example artwork there are 14 layers, going from all visible to just one visible would take 13 clicks. When I'm finished checking that single layer I generally want to go back to all layers visible, so another 13 clicks! That's why I'd like a show all button. In the GIMP, you can Shift-click the visibility toggle “eye” button to make only that layer selected (hiding all others) and Shift-click again to make all layers selected. I propose we implement this same feature. Question: Which layers would be hidden when a copper layer is made “solo-visibile” by being Shift-clicked? Usually you want silk, pins/pads, vias, etc. to still show but only hide all other copper layers. Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 02:41:53 -0700 Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 02:22:25AM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Andrew Poelstra wrote: I have implemented the italicized/separated suggestion. You can see it here: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup4.png Nice. I note, that the longest layer name is solder mask. Why not shorten it to mask to save screen estate for the canvas? I'd be cool with this, but solder mask is a well-known phrase in the industry. It has a definition on Google and a Wikipedia page. mask has nowhere near the same information content. IMHO, it is not worth the space savings. Maybe s.mask would be better? Perhaps it would be best to make the displayed name of the solder mask layer a user preference. Also, it would be nice to give the user control over the layer name font size: then a user could choose a small font. My general system font is too big for use in pcb, where I really want maximum screen real estate available for the board. I found the lesstif GUI uses more reasonable (i.e., smaller) font sizes on my Ubuntu system. Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Tue, 2011-08-23 at 10:36 +1000, Stephen Ecob wrote: A few hours in the future, Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 09:52:19AM +1000, Stephen Ecob wrote: A few hours in the future, Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: * Hide all layers button * Show all layers button These would be easy enough to add to the widget. Just tack an `All Layers' entry below the other non-selectable entries. Whether there would be demand for this, I don't know. Would it affect the pins, pads and via layers? Would it affect the solder mask layer? Why would you want to hide everything? Often I want to see one layer alone, so it would be convenient to be able to hide all and then show a single layer, using just 2 clicks. In your example artwork there are 14 layers, going from all visible to just one visible would take 13 clicks. Right-click, Show only might be nice here. Thinking of some nice signal displaying software I use at work, it has Hide all waveforms below Hide all waveforms above as well. Those might also be useful options for a layer to have. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Mon, 2011-08-22 at 23:45 -0700, Andrew Poelstra wrote: On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 04:41:05PM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Andrew Poelstra wrote: Relatedly, why do we let the user select the 'rats' layer? Can you actually draw with it? You can draw new connections between components and have them add to the rats nest. There are a few limitations to the mode, and I don't expect many people use it though. This said, when I first started using PCB, I designed some moderately complex boards with it (including ones with micro-controllers and discretely constructed switched mode regulators). I came to gschem and gnetlist later only after I had grown to love PCB's ease of use when drawing boards. My netlists were hand-extracted from a breadboard prototype and pencil + paper drawings! This was back in the day where gschem would crash no sooner look at it - often (and very ironically as it turned out), caused by the page auto-save code! -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
Colin D Bennett wrote: mask has nowhere near the same information content. IMHO, it is not worth the space savings. Maybe s.mask would be better? Perhaps it would be best to make the displayed name of the solder mask layer a user preference. +1 Just treat it as any other layer name. Also, it would be nice to give the user control over the layer name font size: ack. The font size depends both, on the hardware and on user preference. There is no one-size-fits all. ---)kaimartin(--- PS: Why do my posts take significantly longer to reach the list than posts by other users? -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 increasingly unhappy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 09:33:28AM +1000, Stephen Ecob wrote: With this in mind, I have implemented the italicized/separated suggestion. You can see it here: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup4.png 404 error - did you get the URL wrong ? Nope, uploaded it wrong :-}. The URL works now. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
A few hours in the future, Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: Nope, uploaded it wrong :-}. The URL works now. Looks good, a definite improvement on what we have now! This may be out of scope for the current work, but I have some related items on my PCB wish list: * Hide all layers button * Show all layers button * Layer visibility memory - this would have a Store button and a Recall button. Store just stores the current visibility state, Recall changes it to the stored value. Perhaps 2 or 3 memories like this would be really useful when working with multi layer boards. * Store layer colours and visibility data in the .pcb file. I often work with a flow where I make changes to a .pcb in a text editor and then import them into PCB with the revert function. It's a real nuisance to lose my layer visibility state every time I revert. -- Stephen Ecob Silicon On Inspiration Sydney Australia www.sioi.com.au ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 09:52:19AM +1000, Stephen Ecob wrote: A few hours in the future, Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: Nope, uploaded it wrong :-}. The URL works now. Looks good, a definite improvement on what we have now! This may be out of scope for the current work, but I have some related items on my PCB wish list: * Hide all layers button * Show all layers button These would be easy enough to add to the widget. Just tack an `All Layers' entry below the other non-selectable entries. Whether there would be demand for this, I don't know. Would it affect the pins, pads and via layers? Would it affect the solder mask layer? Why would you want to hide everything? I don't expect there would be enough of a consensus on these questions. * Layer visibility memory - this would have a Store button and a Recall button. Store just stores the current visibility state, Recall changes it to the stored value. Perhaps 2 or 3 memories like this would be really useful when working with multi layer boards. Hmm. I say, out of scope. ;) * Store layer colours and visibility data in the .pcb file. I often work with a flow where I make changes to a .pcb in a text editor and then import them into PCB with the revert function. It's a real nuisance to lose my layer visibility state every time I revert. I agree, but also out of scope. I might tackle this after the GUI work, though. We have the ability to store layer-specific attributes, which is exactly where things like color and visibility should go. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
Relatedly, why do we let the user select the 'rats' layer? Can you actually draw with it? Yes. That's how you enter the netlist when you don't have a schematic. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
A few hours in the future, Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 09:52:19AM +1000, Stephen Ecob wrote: A few hours in the future, Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: * Hide all layers button * Show all layers button These would be easy enough to add to the widget. Just tack an `All Layers' entry below the other non-selectable entries. Whether there would be demand for this, I don't know. Would it affect the pins, pads and via layers? Would it affect the solder mask layer? Why would you want to hide everything? Often I want to see one layer alone, so it would be convenient to be able to hide all and then show a single layer, using just 2 clicks. In your example artwork there are 14 layers, going from all visible to just one visible would take 13 clicks. When I'm finished checking that single layer I generally want to go back to all layers visible, so another 13 clicks! That's why I'd like a show all button. I don't expect there would be enough of a consensus on these questions. That may well be. Does this idea appeal to any of you other PCB users out there ? -- Stephen Ecob Silicon On Inspiration Sydney Australia www.sioi.com.au ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
Stephen Ecob wrote: * Hide all layers button * Show all layers button I don't think, that I would use these much. * Layer visibility memory - this would have a Store button and a Recall button. Store just stores the current visibility state, Recall changes it to the stored value. Perhaps 2 or 3 memories like this would be really useful when working with multi layer boards. Yes, please! The more layers a layout has, the more likely I want to switch between specific sets of layers. I like the idea of configuration on the fly. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 increasingly unhappy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 02:22:25AM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Andrew Poelstra wrote: I have implemented the italicized/separated suggestion. You can see it here: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup4.png Nice. I note, that the longest layer name is solder mask. Why not shorten it to mask to save screen estate for the canvas? I'd be cool with this, but solder mask is a well-known phrase in the industry. It has a definition on Google and a Wikipedia page. mask has nowhere near the same information content. IMHO, it is not worth the space savings. Maybe s.mask would be better? -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:36:33 +1000 Stephen Ecob silicon.on.inspirat...@gmail.com wrote: Often I want to see one layer alone, so it would be convenient to be able to hide all and then show a single layer, using just 2 clicks. [...and eventually, re-show all...] Does this idea appeal to any of you other PCB users out there ? +1 on this idea, and for exactly the same reasons. -- There are some things in life worth obsessing over. Most things aren't, and when you learn that, life improves. http://digitalaudioconcepts.com Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 08:09:37 -0700 Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 01:46:24PM -0700, Steven Michalske wrote: On Aug 19, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:41:58PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: [...] Though, I am still unsure how to indicate that the last 4 layers can't be used for drawing. Put the item names in parenthesis. A little padlock icon is universal as a locked thingy. I will play with this idea. Probably I can fit a small padlock onto the bottom-right corner of the swatches. How clear this will be from a user perspective, I will not know until I try it. I'm wondering if users will think the padlock icon should function as a button to toggle the “locked” state of a layer, as in the GIMP. In this case, the layer is not so much locked as it is a “virtual” layer that is computed based on other data. Perhaps italicized text would be enough to at least indicate there is something special about those layers. Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
Steven Michalske wrote: Put the item names in parenthesis. A little padlock icon is universal as a locked thingy. (name) can mean anything.. A lock can mislead, too. Locking implies the ability to be unlocked. I like the parenthesis proposal. (And I generally dislike tiny icons. They tend to look like a random batch of pixels if the resolution is not that good ;-) ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 not happy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
Andrew Poelstra wrote: This might work. So might coloring the text. But this has the same problem as putting text in parentheses: at first glance, this visual indicator might mean -anything-. At first glane a lock means something that is not the case here. Pins/pads, farside and mask are not unlockable. I doubt, that this is any better for newbie initiation. What we need to do with the treeview/swatch widget, is to indicate that the swatch still works for toggling visibility, but you can't actually select the layer for drawing. Complex relationships cannot be indicated by simple graphical means. What can easily be done, is an optical hint that these layers do not belong to the same class as the upper layers. Simply add some separating space between them. Tiny icons add to visual clutter and should only be used for compelling reasons. I don't see such a compelling reason here. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 not happy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 04:41:05PM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Complex relationships cannot be indicated by simple graphical means. What can easily be done, is an optical hint that these layers do not belong to the same class as the upper layers. Simply add some separating space between them. Sounds like this is the general consensus. I will add a separator and italicize these layers. The swatch will work, but clicking to select will do nothing. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 01:46:24PM -0700, Steven Michalske wrote: On Aug 19, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:41:58PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: [...] Though, I am still unsure how to indicate that the last 4 layers can't be used for drawing. Put the item names in parenthesis. A little padlock icon is universal as a locked thingy. I will play with this idea. Probably I can fit a small padlock onto the bottom-right corner of the swatches. How clear this will be from a user perspective, I will not know until I try it. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Sat, 2011-08-20 at 08:09 -0700, Andrew Poelstra wrote: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 01:46:24PM -0700, Steven Michalske wrote: On Aug 19, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:41:58PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: [...] Though, I am still unsure how to indicate that the last 4 layers can't be used for drawing. Put the item names in parenthesis. A little padlock icon is universal as a locked thingy. Also, try italicised text. That might make them appear distinct. Bear in mind that the current layer chooser doesn't make any distinction here, so it shouldn't trip people up _that_ much if we don't differentiate them. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 09:55:17AM +0100, Peter Clifton wrote: Also, try italicised text. That might make them appear distinct. This might work. So might coloring the text. But this has the same problem as putting text in parentheses: at first glance, this visual indicator might mean -anything-. Bear in mind that the current layer chooser doesn't make any distinction here, so it shouldn't trip people up _that_ much if we don't differentiate them. The current UI does a very good job on this point: there are no radio buttons to select the bottom layers, so it is very clear that they cannot be selected. At the same time, the visibility toggle buttons are identical for each layer, so it is clear that visibility can be toggled for everything. What we need to do with the treeview/swatch widget, is to indicate that the swatch still works for toggling visibility, but you can't actually select the layer for drawing. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 09:55:17 +0100 Peter Clifton pc...@cam.ac.uk wrote: On Sat, 2011-08-20 at 08:09 -0700, Andrew Poelstra wrote: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 01:46:24PM -0700, Steven Michalske wrote: On Aug 19, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Vanessa Ezekowitz wrote: On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:41:58PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: [...] Though, I am still unsure how to indicate that the last 4 layers can't be used for drawing. Put the item names in parenthesis. A little padlock icon is universal as a locked thingy. Also, try italicised text. That might make them appear distinct. Bear in mind that the current layer chooser doesn't make any distinction here, so it shouldn't trip people up _that_ much if we don't differentiate them. Another thought comes to mind: How about a simple horizontal rule separating the read-only layers from the rest? I figured this subject might benefit from a n00b's perspective, so I asked my husband for his input. He's quite computer savvy, but has never touched an EDA program (let alone PCB). He suggests visibly separating the two sets, combined with italic text for the read-only items. -- There are some things in life worth obsessing over. Most things aren't, and when you learn that, life improves. http://digitalaudioconcepts.com Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
3 hours and 55 minutes ago, Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com wrote: Another thought comes to mind: How about a simple horizontal rule separating the read-only layers from the rest? Good idea. 3 hours and two minutes in the future, Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: This might work. So might coloring the text. But this has the same problem as putting text in parentheses: at first glance, this visual indicator might mean -anything-. I agree - italics / parentheses would leave me wondering what does that mean ? Other possibly helpful indicators: 1. As the user moves their pointer over the layers, dynamically show a half strength current-layer indicator - but of course only for the layers that can be selected. half strength could be done by (say) averaging the colour used to indicate the current layer with the background colour. The half strength changes to full strength and actual selection when the mouse is clicked. 2. If the user insists on clicking on a non selectable layer then display text that explains why they can't select it. The text could be displayed in the Message Log window, or possibly in a pop up dialog box. 'Layer Vias can be displayed or hidden, but cannot be selected as the current editing layer' Just my $0.02, don't know how much work it would be to code these. Regards, Stephen Stephen Ecob Silicon On Inspiration Sydney Australia www.sioi.com.au ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
If you had an icon that meant you're editing this one (a pencil?) simply putting an X in that spot for non-editable layers would prevent you from thinking you could click there. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - Keyboard shortcuts
Hello all, Am 19.08.2011 02:47, schrieb Andrew Poelstra: On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 01:13:37PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: Ctrl-n doesn't toggle visibility? That's what the lesstif HID uses. No. There is code in there to do this, but (to the best of my knowledge) it has never worked. The current accelerator code is very tangled and I wasn't able to fix it last I tried, a few years ago. This is another motivation for pulling the layer-selector into its own widget. I would not like to use ctrl+n for this because for GTK+ (and propably other GUI frameworks) this is the default action for 'New...'. (as actually set in gpcb-menu.res). Am 19.08.2011 02:24, schrieb Andrew Poelstra: My plan is that you can still toggle visibility byShift-num, without changing the active layer. I dislike this shortcut, too, because with the default GTK Key-binding it seems to be impossible to bind this shortcuts to the keys. Hmmm, bad formulation. What I want do say is, that the Characters you get when you hit shift+num are diffrent for several keyboard layouts. But - having shortcuts is very welcome to me, too :-). Kind regards, Felix ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 23:12:57 +0200 Kai-Martin Knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: Colin D Bennett wrote: I really dislike the double-click idea. I often need to quickly enable/disable visibility of multiple layers, Nothing beats accel-keys for fast actions. In this case [ctrl-N] or [shift-N] would be the natural choice. I don't argue that in general, keyboard accelerators are a very fast way of working. But I can't see them being the best way of quickly showing/hiding multiple layers. I try to work with left hand in the qwerty home position and right hand on the mouse (and no looking away from the screen). Pressing Ctrl-7 means I have to look down at my keyboard and move my left hand from the home position. Also, without numbers on the layer buttons, the layers after about #3 are not easily and without extra thought associated by a human with the correct numeric index. If I wanted to hide “vias”, “pins/pads”, and “silk”, it would be tremendously harder to figure out that I had to press Ctrl-6, Ctrl-8, Ctrl-9, rather than just click-click-click with the mouse directly on the layer's button. and the last thing I need is to have to double-click each button. A double click is a single action to me. If you don't like double clicks, how about [control-click]? Control-click is better for me. Double-click requires my mouse to pause for a moment longer than a single click, introducing a discontinuity in the otherwise fluid move-click-move-click-move-click process I would use to show/hide a set of layers. I would much prefer a small region on the button (or next to the button) that controls active/inactive. Seems, our preference differs in this aspect. I'd rather not target small areas for quick, fast actions. This is what we have now with the toggle buttons. And I tend to mis-click every once in a while. I know about Fitts's law, but once my mouse is in the layers palette, I don't have to move far to hide/show many layers at once, so I don't mind if the Show/Hide button is relatively small. Anyway, I think it makes sense to have both keyboard shortcuts and a way to show/hide layers with the mouse. Perhaps useful for different purposes, but also based on personal preference. Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 22:22:11 -0700 Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 11:34:04PM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Andrew Poelstra wrote: I like KMK's click/double-click idea if possible. Very possible. But you would still be unable to toggle visibility independent of selection using the mouse. Why is this so? Are double clicked items automatically selected in GTK widgets? They are in a GtkTreeView. It's a nasty, inflexible widget. In defense of GtkTreeView in this case :-) I suggest that it would be theoretically impossible for it to satisfy both (a) good responsiveness to select an item when it is single-clicked, and (b) allowing double-click on an item without selecting it. (Unless the program can predict a future event: whether the user will click again within the double-click time duration... if that is implemented, then we'll have more important concerns.) Think about the sequence of events: Case (a) the widget is optimized for good responsiveness to clicks. Scenario (a.1): User selects an item. (1) Stimulus: User presses mouse button over widget. Response: Item under mouse is SELECTED. Scenario (a.2): User double-clicks an item. (1) Stimulus: User presses mouse button over widget. Response: Item under mouse is SELECTED. (2) Stimulus: User releases mouse button. Response: No response. (3) Stimulus: User presses mouse button. Response: Oh! It's a double click. Dispatch signal to widget. Case (b) allow double-click on an item without selecting it. Scenario (b.1): User selects an item. (1) Stimulus: User presses mouse button over widget. Response: No response computer needs to wait to determine if a second click will follow. (2) Stimulus: User releases the mouse button. Response: No response computer STILL needs to wait to determine if a second click will follow. (3) Stimulus: Timeout has expired since (1) -- SELECT the item. User is thinking... Wow! the program is slow to react. Scenario B: User double-clicks an item. (1) Stimulus: User presses mouse button over widget. Response: No response computer needs to wait to determine if a second click will follow. (2) Stimulus: User releases mouse button. Response: No response computer waiting for possible double click. (3) Stimulus: User presses mouse button. Response: Oh! It's a double click. Dispatch signal to widget. How important is this to people? Quite important. When working with four layer layouts I often need to toggle visibility of layers while I keep working one of the inner layers. It bothers me, but only because there is no keyboard shortcut in Gtk for toggling visibility. I'd prefer to have both: Mouse click action and keyboard accels. I've gotten the swatch-clicking to work by catching mouse clicks over the visibility toggle column and preventing those clicks from propagating to the GtkTreeView. You say you don't want to reach for a tiny area with the mouse. I have increased the swatch size. Take a look at: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup3.png Simple, functional, beautiful. A+ The swatches are far larger than the radio buttons, have more visibly clickable area (as they are square), and contrast with their surroundings more. I like it. Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Andrew Poelstra wrote: I have increased the swatch size. Take a look at: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup3.png Nice. Although the font is larger than with the current widget, the whole stack is still significantly smaller. And it looks less crowded, too :-) The swatches are far larger than the radio buttons, have more visibly clickable area (as they are square), and contrast with their surroundings more. The most important point to me is that the relative size of buttons for visibility and activation has changed. In current PCB the smaller area corresponds to activation. [ctrl-num] to select 11 to 20, [shift-ctrl-num] to toggle visibility. [alt-num] to select 21 to 30, [shift-ctrl-num] to toggle visibility. [alt-ctrl-num] to select 31 to 40, [shift-alt-ctrl-num] for visibility ;-) Heey, I like that. For compatibility with lesstif we should switch Shift and Ctrl, but otherwise I'm all for this. :-)) ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 not happy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - Keyboard shortcuts
Felix Ruoff wrote: Ctrl-n doesn't toggle visibility? That's what the lesstif HID uses. ..snip.. I would not like to use ctrl+n for this because for GTK+ (and propably other GUI frameworks) this is the default action for 'New...'. (as actually set in gpcb-menu.res). This meant control key plus any of the number keys. So there is no clash with the accel for a new layout here. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 not happy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, 2011-08-18 at 18:57 -0700, Andrew Poelstra wrote: That is how I would like it to work. But clicking the swatch also selects the layer, which is undesirable behavior. There is no clean way to prevent this with a GtkTreeView widget. Is there any dirty way to prevent it? ;) I note that what you are trying to achieve is similar to the GIMP layers dialogue (with different icons), and you _can_ toggle visibility in GIMP without changing the active layer selection. Hmm - looks at source.. gimp/app/widgets/gimplayertreeview.c 14k-line re-implementation of gtk_tree_view. Given GTK was originally the GIMP TOOL KIT, it seems sad that they have to go to such lengths to implement basic functionality. If we are really keen on the behaviour described - perhaps we could implement our own widget for it too. Regards, -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 01:01:07PM +0100, Peter Clifton wrote: On Thu, 2011-08-18 at 18:57 -0700, Andrew Poelstra wrote: That is how I would like it to work. But clicking the swatch also selects the layer, which is undesirable behavior. There is no clean way to prevent this with a GtkTreeView widget. Is there any dirty way to prevent it? ;) Yes, I found one -- and it is not actually that dirty. You can intercept the button-press-event signal, use the function gtk_tree_view_get_path_at_pos () to figure out what cell is clicked on, then prevent the propagation of the button-press-event if it was a swatch. (In this case, you have to toggle the visibility in the tree model yourself.) I note that what you are trying to achieve is similar to the GIMP layers dialogue (with different icons), and you _can_ toggle visibility in GIMP without changing the active layer selection. Hmm - looks at source.. gimp/app/widgets/gimplayertreeview.c 14k-line re-implementation of gtk_tree_view. Given GTK was originally the GIMP TOOL KIT, it seems sad that they have to go to such lengths to implement basic functionality. If we are really keen on the behaviour described - perhaps we could implement our own widget for it too. It looks for now to be unnecessary. But I agree with your frustration at the GIMP source rewriting half the toolkit. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Fri, 2011-08-19 at 16:32 -0700, Andrew Poelstra wrote: Yes, I found one -- and it is not actually that dirty. You can intercept the button-press-event signal, use the function gtk_tree_view_get_path_at_pos () to figure out what cell is clicked on, then prevent the propagation of the button-press-event if it was a swatch. (In this case, you have to toggle the visibility in the tree model yourself.) Cool. Here's a fun idea - had you considered using the tree view's _tree_ feature to show layer groups? That might let us allow switching off entire layer groups, or individual layers within them. -- Peter Clifton Electrical Engineering Division, Engineering Department, University of Cambridge, 9, JJ Thomson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 0FA Tel: +44 (0)7729 980173 - (No signal in the lab!) Tel: +44 (0)1223 748328 - (Shared lab phone, ask for me) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
Thanks for all of your input, guys. I've done the fun parts now (i.e., writing the widget) and still have to hook it into the Gtk menu system. It looks like it won't be too hard, once I understand everything that's going on in there. I have a busy weekend, so I won't be posting anything you can play with for a litte while. But here is a summary of the widget: 1. It looks like http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup3.png 2. You click the swatches to toggle visibility. Double-clicking does not work. Sorry, Kai. 3. You select layers by clicking on them, OR, numbers 1-0 (with 0 meaning 10) to select layers 1-10. Then Alt+1-0 to select layers 11-20. I can't use Shift without making assumptions about what character Shift+1 corresponds to on the user's keyboard. So that's out. 4. You can toggle visibility by combining Ctrl with the above accelerators. -- Andrew Poelstra I'm 20 today! ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 05:22:57PM +0100, Peter Clifton wrote: Cool. Here's a fun idea - had you considered using the tree view's _tree_ feature to show layer groups? That might let us allow switching off entire layer groups, or individual layers within them. Oooh. I had not considered this. We would need to have a new discussion about keyboard shortcuts and the like, and this is outside of the scope of what I plan to do, but I'll definitely stick some TODO comments in to this effect. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
Do we need any core changes to support any new functionality we've decided on? I know people ask about making sug-group layers separately controllable, and/or making narrower classes of objects visible. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
I can't use Shift without making assumptions about what character Shift+1 corresponds to on the user's keyboard. So that's out. The lesstif hid traps the events before they're translated, so it can do this. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:41:58PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: Do we need any core changes to support any new functionality we've decided on? I know people ask about making sug-group layers separately controllable, and/or making narrower classes of objects visible. Not with the current widget, no. I think we would want to fix the core layer-handling before doing those things. My goal for now is to only touch gui-top-window.c, and only affect the user's experience. Though, I am still unsure how to indicate that the last 4 layers can't be used for drawing. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds - summary
On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:41:58PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: [...] Though, I am still unsure how to indicate that the last 4 layers can't be used for drawing. Put the item names in parenthesis. -- There are some things in life worth obsessing over. Most things aren't, and when you learn that, life improves. http://digitalaudioconcepts.com Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Hi Andrew and all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Poelstra Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 9:52 AM To: k...@familieknaak.de; gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 12:08:34AM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: This advantage wears off as the user uses the feature more often. Using layers is very basic to PCB. Typical use switches layers very often in a session. Because of this, long term aspects become more important, like efficient use of screen real estate and good visibility of important aspects. Eye icons would demand an additional share of space that cannot be used for the canvas. Greyed out buttons buttons are a very intuitive and obvious way to signal invisibility. Kai (and others), what do you think of this mockup?: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup.png -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ Looks nice ;-) I assume that ground is the active layer ? BTW, we could truncate layernames in buttons: solder mask-- mask rat lines -- rats pins/pads -- leads To save some screen real estate. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
2011/8/18 Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca: Kai (and others), what do you think of this mockup?: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup.png Looks good. It resembles GtkTreeView and that raises a question - will it still be possible to toggle visibility without changing the active layer (moving the selection)? I also like the stronger visual indication of currently active layer. To me the size of layer color indication for hidden layers is too small - for example its hard to tell difference between power and outline. So I would either increase the size or skip showing color for invisible layers at all. I assume graying out the last 4 layers has some meaning - they're not selectable - but that's not immediately clear by looking at the widget. Cheers, Krzysztof ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 01:05:33 +0200 Kai-Martin Knaak k...@familieknaak.de wrote: Andrew Poelstra wrote: I think such a thing would look like: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/selector.png What do people think of this? Invisibility by greyed out buttons is much more easily grasped on a glance than presence or abcense of an eye icon. I'd prefer to not have eye icons and signal visibility by greying out. Fat print of the current layer is a nice way to signal the current layer. Maybe the background of the layer name can be highlighted in some way, too. The current layer is one of the most important bits of information the layer block delivers. Buttons should be all the same size, rather than just the size of the respective layer name. If you go for such a radical change, please make it so, that the larger button selects the current layer. Select of a layer is much more common than change of visibility. ---)kaimartin(--- I'd just like to give my +1 to this idea. Colored boxes, eyes, and plain text as Andrew showed, plus bold text and a subtle highlight to the background behind the selected layer. It would be a good idea to add a border around each button, perhaps only visible on mouseover, to imply to new users that those items can be clicked on. I can't say I like the idea of a greyed-out button though, as this to my mind says disabled and won't respond if clicked on, rather than simply hidden. -- There are some things in life worth obsessing over. Most things aren't, and when you learn that, life improves. http://digitalaudioconcepts.com Vanessa Ezekowitz vanessaezekow...@gmail.com ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 07:48:31 +0200 Bert Timmerman bert.timmer...@xs4all.nl wrote: I think such a thing would look like: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/selector.png What do people think of this? IMHO, the former proposal with visibilty buttons without rectangles is the improvement we are looking for, and we should exploit screen real estate more aggressively and maybe even go as far as truncate layernames to 6..8 chars. If you shorten the layer names here, where would you even want the full names? I think if the user has given layers long names, it is for a good reason. This is about the only place the layer names are even used, except for the exported Gerbers. If the user wants short layer names, he can just name his layers with short names. I do think it could be useful to allow the font size for the layer names to be configurable in the preferences, and allow the user to adjust the width of the left side panel. Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Steven Michalske wrote: I really like this one. Bonus points for setting layer color by clicking on the colored rectangle. This should be part of a properties dialog for the respective layer. Properties may include attributes like skip-DRC, DRC rules specific to this layer, layer name, whether this layer is included in gerber export, etc. The properties dialog may open on right click on the layer button (like properties dialogs do in many applications). Single click should be tied to make layer the active layer Double click should be tied to toggle visibility This would provide maximum sensitive button area. Currently, the separate buttons for visibility and active layer make for quite some mis-clicks by me. It is easier to blindly differentiate between click and double click, than between closely locates buttons. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 not happy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Andrew Poelstra wrote: Kai (and others), what do you think of this mockup?: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup.png Layer names with white background are much easier to read than white on color we have now. If it were me, the colored squares could be a tad larger without increasig the line spacing. The little color triangles are not necessary. But I like this eye candy. There should be two highlight modes. One to show that the respective layer is the currently active layer. And another to provide visual feedback for the mouse. These two should not be exclusive, so you can mouse-highlicgt the current layer. How about underline for the active layer and the systems highlight color for mouse feedback? The latter is what I got to expect from gnome applications. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 not happy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Bert Timmerman wrote: BTW, we could truncate layernames in buttons: ack. pins/pads -- leads Better: Divide these. Pads are different from pins. Pads reside on only one layer while pins are spanning all layers. During my recent multilayer layout it would have been handy to disable pads but keep pins. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 not happy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 04:12:34AM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Andrew Poelstra wrote: Kai (and others), what do you think of this mockup?: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup.png Layer names with white background are much easier to read than white on color we have now. If it were me, the colored squares could be a tad larger without increasig the line spacing. Good call. I increased them to 14x14 pixels of color and they are much easier to see without increasing the line height. The little color triangles are not necessary. But I like this eye candy. There should be two highlight modes. One to show that the respective layer is the currently active layer. And another to provide visual feedback for the mouse. These two should not be exclusive, so you can mouse-highlicgt the current layer. How about underline for the active layer and the systems highlight color for mouse feedback? The latter is what I got to expect from gnome applications. What if we just keep the active layer highlighted all the time, and use that in place of the radio buttons? -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 08:29:13AM +0200, Krzysztof Kościuszkiewicz wrote: 2011/8/18 Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca: Kai (and others), what do you think of this mockup?: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup.png Looks good. It resembles GtkTreeView and that raises a question - will it still be possible to toggle visibility without changing the active layer (moving the selection)? I also like the stronger visual indication of currently active layer. You're very astute ;). It looks like you can't toggle visibility without selecting a new layer. But there are two ways around this: 1. If we use Kai-Martin's idea of double-clicking for visibility, this would not be a surprise to the user. 2. Whenever you hide a layer, the selector would jump to the previously-selected layer. I haven't tried it yet, but I think that from a user's perspective that would make the visibility buttons seem independent of list selection. To me the size of layer color indication for hidden layers is too small - for example its hard to tell difference between power and outline. So I would either increase the size or skip showing color for invisible layers at all. Others have suggested this too. See http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/mockup2.png I assume graying out the last 4 layers has some meaning - they're not selectable - but that's not immediately clear by looking at the widget. That is what I meant. Can you think of how to make this clear, while still allowing the user to toggle visibility? IMHO it would be obvious what the graying-out meant after the first time the user tried selecting them. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 3:56 PM, Andrew Poelstra [1]as...@sfu.ca wrote: 2. Whenever you hide a layer, the selector would jump to the previously-selected layer. I haven't tried it yet, but I think that from a user's perspective that would make the visibility buttons seem independent of list selection. This would work for hiding layers, but not making them visible. If layer X is active and layer Y is invisible, how do I make layer Y visible without making it the active layer? I like KMK's click/double-click idea if possible. In practice I avoid moving the mouse all the way over to the layer selection while doing a layout anyway, instead using my free hand on the number keys to select the active layer. Jared References 1. mailto:as...@sfu.ca ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 09:25:06AM -0700, Jared Casper wrote: On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 3:56 PM, Andrew Poelstra [1]as...@sfu.ca wrote: 2. Whenever you hide a layer, the selector would jump to the previously-selected layer. I haven't tried it yet, but I think that from a user's perspective that would make the visibility buttons seem independent of list selection. This would work for hiding layers, but not making them visible. If layer X is active and layer Y is invisible, how do I make layer Y visible without making it the active layer? I like KMK's click/double-click idea if possible. Very possible. But you would still be unable to toggle visibility independent of selection using the mouse. How important is this to people? It bothers me, but only because there is no keyboard shortcut in Gtk for toggling visibility. My plan is that you can still toggle visibility by Shift-num, without changing the active layer. The problem with this, of course, is that it will only work with the first 10 layers.. In practice I avoid moving the mouse all the way over to the layer selection while doing a layout anyway, instead using my free hand on the number keys to select the active layer. Jared Ditto. My primary goal here is to improve perhiphial view of what layers are selected and visibile. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Very possible. But you would still be unable to toggle visibility independent of selection using the mouse. How important is this to people? It bothers me, but only because there is no keyboard shortcut in Gtk for toggling visibility. Ctrl-n doesn't toggle visibility? That's what the lesstif HID uses. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 01:13:37PM -0400, DJ Delorie wrote: Very possible. But you would still be unable to toggle visibility independent of selection using the mouse. How important is this to people? It bothers me, but only because there is no keyboard shortcut in Gtk for toggling visibility. Ctrl-n doesn't toggle visibility? That's what the lesstif HID uses. No. There is code in there to do this, but (to the best of my knowledge) it has never worked. The current accelerator code is very tangled and I wasn't able to fix it last I tried, a few years ago. This is another motivation for pulling the layer-selector into its own widget. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 09:25:06 -0700 Jared Casper jaredcas...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 3:56 PM, Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: 2. Whenever you hide a layer, the selector would jump to the previously-selected layer. I haven't tried it yet, but I think that from a user's perspective that would make the visibility buttons seem independent of list selection. This would work for hiding layers, but not making them visible. If layer X is active and layer Y is invisible, how do I make layer Y visible without making it the active layer? I like KMK's click/double-click idea if possible. I really dislike the double-click idea. I often need to quickly enable/disable visibility of multiple layers, and the last thing I need is to have to double-click each button. I would much prefer a small region on the button (or next to the button) that controls active/inactive. I like the color swatch and how it shows a small rectangle of the layer color when the layer is hidden; if this swatch were the show/hide toggle, that would be very slick. Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 09:50:25AM -0700, Colin D Bennett wrote: I really dislike the double-click idea. I often need to quickly enable/disable visibility of multiple layers, and the last thing I need is to have to double-click each button. I would much prefer a small region on the button (or next to the button) that controls active/inactive. I agree. I like the color swatch and how it shows a small rectangle of the layer color when the layer is hidden; if this swatch were the show/hide toggle, that would be very slick. That is how I would like it to work. But clicking the swatch also selects the layer, which is undesirable behavior. There is no clean way to prevent this with a GtkTreeView widget. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 18:57:33 -0700 Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 09:50:25AM -0700, Colin D Bennett wrote: I like the color swatch and how it shows a small rectangle of the layer color when the layer is hidden; if this swatch were the show/hide toggle, that would be very slick. That is how I would like it to work. But clicking the swatch also selects the layer, which is undesirable behavior. There is no clean way to prevent this with a GtkTreeView widget. It doesn't sound like a “tree view” is the most appropriate concept for the layer list. There is no apparent visual hierarchy. I am not familiar with GTK, but is there another widget that would be more suitable? E.g., table, list, general scrollable canvas with custom widgets stacked vertically? Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 11:49:22AM -0700, Colin D Bennett wrote: On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 18:57:33 -0700 Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 09:50:25AM -0700, Colin D Bennett wrote: I like the color swatch and how it shows a small rectangle of the layer color when the layer is hidden; if this swatch were the show/hide toggle, that would be very slick. That is how I would like it to work. But clicking the swatch also selects the layer, which is undesirable behavior. There is no clean way to prevent this with a GtkTreeView widget. It doesn't sound like a “tree view” is the most appropriate concept for the layer list. There is no apparent visual hierarchy. I am not familiar with GTK, but is there another widget that would be more suitable? E.g., table, list, general scrollable canvas with custom widgets stacked vertically? No, tree view is used for everything. You can hookup a tree model if you want a heirarchy, but for lists you hookup a list model. The viewing logic is the same, so gtk used the confusing name tree view for both in other to avoid code duplication. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Colin D Bennett wrote: I really dislike the double-click idea. I often need to quickly enable/disable visibility of multiple layers, Nothing beats accel-keys for fast actions. In this case [ctrl-N] or [shift-N] would be the natural choice. and the last thing I need is to have to double-click each button. A double click is a single action to me. If you don't like double clicks, how about [control-click]? I would much prefer a small region on the button (or next to the button) that controls active/inactive. Seems, our preference differs in this aspect. I'd rather not target small areas for quick, fast actions. This is what we have now with the toggle buttons. And I tend to mis-click every once in a while. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 not happy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Andrew Poelstra wrote: I like KMK's click/double-click idea if possible. Very possible. But you would still be unable to toggle visibility independent of selection using the mouse. Why is this so? Are double clicked items automatically selected in GTK widgets? How important is this to people? Quite important. When working with four layer layouts I often need to toggle visibility of layers while I keep working one of the inner layers. It bothers me, but only because there is no keyboard shortcut in Gtk for toggling visibility. I'd prefer to have both: Mouse click action and keyboard accels. My plan is that you can still toggle visibility by Shift-num, without changing the active layer. The problem with this, of course, is that it will only work with the first 10 layers.. [ctrl-num] to select 11 to 20, [shift-ctrl-num] to toggle visibility. [alt-num] to select 21 to 30, [shift-ctrl-num] to toggle visibility. [alt-ctrl-num] to select 31 to 40, [shift-alt-ctrl-num] for visibility ;-) ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 not happy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 11:34:04PM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: Andrew Poelstra wrote: I like KMK's click/double-click idea if possible. Very possible. But you would still be unable to toggle visibility independent of selection using the mouse. Why is this so? Are double clicked items automatically selected in GTK widgets? They are in a GtkTreeView. It's a nasty, inflexible widget. How important is this to people? Quite important. When working with four layer layouts I often need to toggle visibility of layers while I keep working one of the inner layers. It bothers me, but only because there is no keyboard shortcut in Gtk for toggling visibility. I'd prefer to have both: Mouse click action and keyboard accels. I've gotten the swatch-clicking to work by catching mouse clicks over the visibility toggle column and preventing those clicks from propagating to the GtkTreeView. You say you don't want to reach for a tiny area with the mouse. I have increased the swatch size. Take a look at: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup3.png The swatches are far larger than the radio buttons, have more visibly clickable area (as they are square), and contrast with their surroundings more. My plan is that you can still toggle visibility by Shift-num, without changing the active layer. The problem with this, of course, is that it will only work with the first 10 layers.. [ctrl-num] to select 11 to 20, [shift-ctrl-num] to toggle visibility. [alt-num] to select 21 to 30, [shift-ctrl-num] to toggle visibility. [alt-ctrl-num] to select 31 to 40, [shift-alt-ctrl-num] for visibility ;-) Heey, I like that. For compatibility with lesstif we should switch Shift and Ctrl, but otherwise I'm all for this. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Hey all, I am working on moving the Gtk layer-selector into its own widget (see bug 699482, for example), and cleaning up the code. A question I have for the group is: why are the backgrounds of the layer buttons in little rectangles? Is there opposition to making the background fill the whole buttons, like so?: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/buttons.png It would simplify the code a bit and IMHO looks more modern. There is a bit of an optical illusion making the new buttons seem bigger, but I checked in gimp and there is no change in size. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 7:00 PM, Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: Hey all, I am working on moving the Gtk layer-selector into its own widget (see bug 699482, for example), and cleaning up the code. A question I have for the group is: why are the backgrounds of the layer buttons in little rectangles? Is there opposition to making the background fill the whole buttons, like so?: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/buttons.png Looks great, I like it much better than the rectangles. One request, please make the text recognize a light backdrop and change to black. e.g. far side is not contrasty enough. Steve ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
The lesstif layer buttons are solid like you propose too ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
I personally like the new style you created. Its very nice! I think the reason for adding this small rectangles is, that its easier to see, if the button is pressed. Am 18.08.2011 04:00, schrieb Andrew Poelstra: Hey all, I am working on moving the Gtk layer-selector into its own widget (see bug 699482, for example), and cleaning up the code. A question I have for the group is: why are the backgrounds of the layer buttons in little rectangles? Is there opposition to making the background fill the whole buttons, like so?: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/buttons.png It would simplify the code a bit and IMHO looks more modern. There is a bit of an optical illusion making the new buttons seem bigger, but I checked in gimp and there is no change in size. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:48:48 +0200 Felix Ruoff fe...@posaunenmission.de wrote: I personally like the new style you created. Its very nice! I think the reason for adding this small rectangles is, that its easier to see, if the button is pressed. Good point. I do like the full color fill you show, Andrew. However, I think we need a better way of indicating which layers are visible. Perhaps a little X or checkbox icon on the button? I already dislike the current buttons' indication of which layers are visible (change of fill color and text color with inset or outset border). Maybe something better can be done. Regards, Colin Am 18.08.2011 04:00, schrieb Andrew Poelstra: Hey all, I am working on moving the Gtk layer-selector into its own widget (see bug 699482, for example), and cleaning up the code. A question I have for the group is: why are the backgrounds of the layer buttons in little rectangles? Is there opposition to making the background fill the whole buttons, like so?: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/buttons.png It would simplify the code a bit and IMHO looks more modern. There is a bit of an optical illusion making the new buttons seem bigger, but I checked in gimp and there is no change in size. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Good point. I do like the full color fill you show, Andrew. However, I think we need a better way of indicating which layers are visible. Perhaps a little X or checkbox icon on the button? I already dislike the current buttons' indication of which layers are visible (change of fill color and text color with inset or outset border). Maybe something better can be done. Photoshop (and also GIMP) use a small on/off icon that looks like an eye to control layer visibility. This may or may not be a good way to do it, but it is certainly a familiar UI to many people. Stephen Ecob Silicon On Inspiration Sydney Australia www.sioi.com.au ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 01:14:46PM -0700, Colin D Bennett wrote: On Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:48:48 +0200 Felix Ruoff fe...@posaunenmission.de wrote: I personally like the new style you created. Its very nice! I think the reason for adding this small rectangles is, that its easier to see, if the button is pressed. Good point. I do like the full color fill you show, Andrew. However, I think we need a better way of indicating which layers are visible. Perhaps a little X or checkbox icon on the button? I already dislike the current buttons' indication of which layers are visible (change of fill color and text color with inset or outset border). Maybe something better can be done. I suggested last year copying the Gimp's layer selector: left-click to activate, with visibility controlled by a toggle-able eye pixmap. There was not much support for the idea. The feeling was that we should try to make the layer selector take less space, whereas adding pixmaps would take more. -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 07:31:24AM +1000, Stephen Ecob wrote: Good point. I do like the full color fill you show, Andrew. However, I think we need a better way of indicating which layers are visible. Perhaps a little X or checkbox icon on the button? I already dislike the current buttons' indication of which layers are visible (change of fill color and text color with inset or outset border). Maybe something better can be done. Photoshop (and also GIMP) use a small on/off icon that looks like an eye to control layer visibility. This may or may not be a good way to do it, but it is certainly a familiar UI to many people. I think such a thing would look like: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/selector.png What do people think of this? -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
However you change the buttons, please ensure that it is VERY obvious what selection is made/mode it is currently in. I've seen far to many sw products where pushing a button to engage some action or select a mode failed to notify the user (either noticeable visual change, audio sound, or both) as to the state of the system. there were some cases when the change was so slight that it was almost impossible to see the change. -J On Wed, Aug 17, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Colin D Bennett [1]co...@gibibit.com wrote: On Wed, 17 Aug 2011 20:48:48 +0200 Felix Ruoff [2]fe...@posaunenmission.de wrote: I personally like the new style you created. Its very nice! I think the reason for adding this small rectangles is, that its easier to see, if the button is pressed. Good point. I do like the full color fill you show, Andrew. However, I think we need a better way of indicating which layers are visible. Perhaps a little X or checkbox icon on the button? I already dislike the current buttons' indication of which layers are visible (change of fill color and text color with inset or outset border). Maybe something better can be done. Regards, Colin Am 18.08.2011 04:00, schrieb Andrew Poelstra: Hey all, I am working on moving the Gtk layer-selector into its own widget (see bug 699482, for example), and cleaning up the code. A question I have for the group is: why are the backgrounds of the layer buttons in little rectangles? Is there opposition to making the background fill the whole buttons, like so?: [3]http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/buttons.png It would simplify the code a bit and IMHO looks more modern. There is a bit of an optical illusion making the new buttons seem bigger, but I checked in gimp and there is no change in size. ___ geda-user mailing list [4]geda-user@moria.seul.org [5]http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user References 1. mailto:co...@gibibit.com 2. mailto:fe...@posaunenmission.de 3. http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/buttons.png 4. mailto:geda-user@moria.seul.org 5. http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Stephen Ecob wrote: Photoshop (and also GIMP) use a small on/off icon that looks like an eye to control layer visibility. In gimp, this is inside a dedicated layer dialog, not in a side bar. This may or may not be a good way to do it, but it is certainly a familiar UI to many people. This advantage wears off as the user uses the feature more often. Using layers is very basic to PCB. Typical use switches layers very often in a session. Because of this, long term aspects become more important, like efficient use of screen real estate and good visibility of important aspects. Eye icons would demand an additional share of space that cannot be used for the canvas. Greyed out buttons buttons are a very intuitive and obvious way to signal invisibility. By the way, there is a about half a centimeter wasted screen to the right of the layer buttons. The tool buttons don't need it, either. IMHO, this is because the width of the side box is hard coded. It provides some extra space in case the layer names are longer than default. Sugestion: Make the width of the side bar depend on what its contents need. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 not happy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Wed, 17 Aug 2011 23:01:30 -0700 Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 07:31:24AM +1000, Stephen Ecob wrote: Good point. I do like the full color fill you show, Andrew. However, I think we need a better way of indicating which layers are visible. Perhaps a little X or checkbox icon on the button? I already dislike the current buttons' indication of which layers are visible (change of fill color and text color with inset or outset border). Maybe something better can be done. Photoshop (and also GIMP) use a small on/off icon that looks like an eye to control layer visibility. This may or may not be a good way to do it, but it is certainly a familiar UI to many people. I think such a thing would look like: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/selector.png What do people think of this? That looks very nice -- status is easily apparent. I think we could compact the layout by eliminating excess horizontal and vertical spacing. Why is “Signal” bold in that image? The bad thing about using Bold/Normal weight for indicating status is that it changes the width dynamically and might or might not cut off the text. Regards, Colin ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Andrew Poelstra wrote: I think such a thing would look like: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/selector.png What do people think of this? Invisibility by greyed out buttons is much more easily grasped on a glance than presence or abcense of an eye icon. I'd prefer to not have eye icons and signal visibility by greying out. Fat print of the current layer is a nice way to signal the current layer. Maybe the background of the layer name can be highlighted in some way, too. The current layer is one of the most important bits of information the layer block delivers. Buttons should be all the same size, rather than just the size of the respective layer name. If you go for such a radical change, please make it so, that the larger button selects the current layer. Select of a layer is much more common than change of visibility. ---)kaimartin(--- -- Kai-Martin Knaak Email: k...@familieknaak.de http://pool.sks-keyservers.net:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x6C0B9F53 not happy with moderation of geda-user ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 12:08:34AM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: This advantage wears off as the user uses the feature more often. Using layers is very basic to PCB. Typical use switches layers very often in a session. Because of this, long term aspects become more important, like efficient use of screen real estate and good visibility of important aspects. Eye icons would demand an additional share of space that cannot be used for the canvas. Greyed out buttons buttons are a very intuitive and obvious way to signal invisibility. Kai (and others), what do you think of this mockup?: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup.png -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Aug 18, 2011, at 12:52 AM, Andrew Poelstra as...@sfu.ca wrote: On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 12:08:34AM +0200, Kai-Martin Knaak wrote: This advantage wears off as the user uses the feature more often. Using layers is very basic to PCB. Typical use switches layers very often in a session. Because of this, long term aspects become more important, like efficient use of screen real estate and good visibility of important aspects. Eye icons would demand an additional share of space that cannot be used for the canvas. Greyed out buttons buttons are a very intuitive and obvious way to signal invisibility. Kai (and others), what do you think of this mockup?: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup.png I really like this one. Bonus points for setting layer color by clicking on the colored rectangle. Steve ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Steven Michalske smichal...@gmail.com wrote: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup.png I really like this one. Bonus points for setting layer color by clicking on the colored rectangle. Er, maybe shift-click for that. I would have assumed that clicking would toggle visibility on/off. One thing I like about Andrew's most recent mockup is that the visibility of the currently selected layer is greater than the present arrangement (radio buttons). It's an advantage for me to have good peripheral vision visiiblity of which is the current layer, as my focus is usually close to the center of the screen. Stephen Ecob Silicon On Inspiration Sydney Australia www.sioi.com.au ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Kai (and others), what do you think of this mockup?: [1]http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup.png I like this one also. It seems compact and easy to understand. Matthew -- My homepage. [2]http://sites.google.com/site/matthewsager/home References 1. http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup.png 2. http://sites.google.com/site/matthewsager/home ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Am 18.08.2011 09:52, schrieb Andrew Poelstra: Kai (and others), what do you think of this mockup?: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/mockup.png Very good! ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds
Hi Andrew and all, -Original Message- From: geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org [mailto:geda-user-boun...@moria.seul.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Poelstra Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2011 8:02 AM To: gEDA user mailing list Subject: Re: gEDA-user: Layer button backgrounds On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 07:31:24AM +1000, Stephen Ecob wrote: Good point. I do like the full color fill you show, Andrew. However, I think we need a better way of indicating which layers are visible. Perhaps a little X or checkbox icon on the button? I already dislike the current buttons' indication of which layers are visible (change of fill color and text color with inset or outset border). Maybe something better can be done. Photoshop (and also GIMP) use a small on/off icon that looks like an eye to control layer visibility. This may or may not be a good way to do it, but it is certainly a familiar UI to many people. I think such a thing would look like: http://wpsoftware.net/andrew/dump/selector.png What do people think of this? -- Andrew Poelstra Email: asp11 at sfu.ca OR apoelstra at wpsoftware.net Web: http://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/ The radiobuttons on the left were used for the selection of the active layer and behave 1 out of many (1ooM). The (coloured) buttons with layernames on the right were used for visibility of a layer(group). And yes there is some dead space betewwen the latter buttons and the canvas. IMHO, the former proposal with visibilty buttons without rectangles is the improvement we are looking for, and we should exploit screen real estate more aggressively and maybe even go as far as truncate layernames to 6..8 chars. Whatever we change, we should keep the (shortened) layernames in the button to assist our colourblind users. Kind regards, Bert Timmerman. ___ geda-user mailing list geda-user@moria.seul.org http://www.seul.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geda-user
