Re: [Gendergap] FYI - GGTF case appeal

[Nathan]

I believe because the ArbCom case regards the 'Gender Gap Task Force'

On Sat, Jul 15, 2017 at 7:24 PM, JJ Marr  wrote:

> How does this relate to the gender gap on Wikimedia again?
>
> On 15 Jul 2017 6:00 PM, "Neotarf"  wrote:
>
> Just to follow up, the WMF has now responded.  I appreciate them taking
> time to review these concerns.
>
>
> >>>your best course of action is to discuss the PII situation with WMF
> Legal.
>
> Been and done, also involvement from C-levels, although that was some time
> ago
>
>
> >>>a few other remedies which could come into play, but they would almost
> certainly take longer and be more politically problematic than a minimal
> intervention
>
> If this is necessary, we should not shrink from it.  If this can happen to
> me, it can happen to anyone -- your students, your employees, or someone
> like Bassel Khartabil. The arbitrators should not be using dox as a tool to
> silence voices for diversity or as an arbitration outcome.
>
> The foundation lost social capital during the media viewer/visual
> editor/flow controversies, because the community went to a great deal of
> effort to document the problems with those products, and was not listened
> to.  But that was a long time ago, and the community has now lost the high
> ground, largely because of the gender issue. 640 people voted in the 2014
> arbcom election, but after this GGTF case, 2674 people voted in the 2015
> election. Is there any doubt that the arbcom is out of touch with the
> community, and that the community process is failing?  The arbitration
> committee was not established by the community, it was established by Jimmy
> Wales. Is there any doubt the foundation has the capability and the
> resources to step in and protect the long term interests of the movement if
> the arbcom and the community process can not?
>
> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 8:03 PM, Pine W  wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately I don't think there is much more I can do here. Based on
>> what you wrote, I think that your best course of action is to discuss the
>> PII situation with WMF Legal. There are a few other remedies which could
>> come into play, but they would almost certainly take longer and be more
>> politically problematic than a minimal intervention in which WMF Legal
>> clarifies to the Ombuds and Arbcom what is required under WMF's
>> interpretation of its privacy policy.
>>
>> Pine
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Neotarf  wrote:
>>
>>> The privacy policy as written certainly leads users to expect their PII
>>> is safe. There is nothing I can find in the written policy that would back
>>> the idea that the ombuds should refuse to remove PII if they think it might
>>> have been posted in good faith. If it could be used to identify someone, it
>>> should just be removed. That's just basic safety.  Maybe they are not
>>> allowed to go against arbitrators  I also don't understand why arbitrators
>>> would insist on posting PII over and over. We have seen too much what that
>>> can lead to. In all fairness, the gamergate sub-reddit was very
>>> professional and removed the dox within an hour of my request.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 5:56 PM, Pine W  wrote:
>>>
 Hmm. I'd like to take a closer look at this, but unfortunately I'm
 already backlogged with other projects. I wish I knew what to suggest here.
 If you have already been to the Ombudsman Commission and you disagree with
 their interpretation of WMF policies, then you might try to contact WMF
 Legal, although I don't know to what extent they will want to involve
 themselves.

 For what it's worth, if I had my way the OC would (1) have
 significantly more independence from the WMF Board and staff and (2) be
 issuing monthly or quarterly reports about its activities, but
 realistically the current setup is likely to continue for the foreseeable
 future.

 Pine


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Re: [Gendergap] Craigslist founder donates $500K to curb Wikipedia trolls - Email filters?

[Nathan]

On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 4:44 PM, WereSpielChequers <
werespielchequ...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Christophe, Carol and Fae's notes have set me thinking as to what we could
> do with these funds,
>
> One of the areas that I understand has been a problem is email harassment,
> particularly of women and I believe particularly from throwaway accounts.
>
> I was wondering what people on this list would think of some possible
> changes we could make to the "email this user" system.
>
> The first would be to allow editors to set their email to only receive
> from confirmed or even extended confirmed accounts. This would be invisible
> to new editors, they'd just not see the *email this user *option for
> people they weren't entitled to email.
>
> The second would be an opt in Email moderation service. Similarly to only
> receiving email from confirmed or extended confirmed accounts, this would
> enable editors to opt all or parts of their email via the "email this user"
> function into a moderated stream. Much as with moderated posts to lists
> like this, a list admin would see the email and either approve it or take
> other action. You'd presumably need to having something on the send email
> screen to say that "this editor has opted into email moderation and your
> email will be delayed slightly before being screened and forwarded" You'd
> also need a group of volunteers to do the moderation, spot abusive emails
> and block abusers.
>
> The third would be an AI driven filter that people could opt into and
> which would screen emails going through this system and put high risk ones
> into a moderation queue.
>
> What do people think, if this existed would it help, would anyone have
> used any of it?
>
> WSC
>
>
>
Why not go a step further, and allow people to specifically permit which
users can contact them by e-mail? Anyone else can contact them on their
talkpage, the preferred method of communication in any case.
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Re: [Gendergap] Marfan syndrome image

[Nathan]

The image was removed by Doc James with the edit summary "Prior person had
a lot more than marfans"
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Re: [Gendergap] Defining harassment: the first empirical investigation into the nature of creepiness

[Nathan]

On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 12:25 PM, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not quite sure how to answer JJ Marr and Nathan, but if you watched
> the Berkman panel I posted about earlier [1], the conclusion of the WMF
> harassment survey is that the effect of harassment on women in Wikipedia,
> is that they leave.
>
> And not to beat around the bush, for those who are not going to read the
> piece, the "certain topic" is sex, sex, and sex:
>
> "...behaviors that were seen as being sexual or having a sexual edge to
> them were far more likely to be creepy than more innocuous ones. Women,
> especially, noted that behaviors like unwanted sexual advances, constantly
> turning the conversation towards sex, requests for photos, dates and
> invading their personal space were signs that a person was creepy."
>
> So this goes back to defining harassment.  How do you tell the difference
> between someone who genuinely does not want to appear creepy, as in the
> hotel example, and someone who is deliberately skirting the boundaries, in
> order to harass people while flying under the radar.
>
> There is a long history of defining harassment and "hostile work
> environment" in employment situations.  For in-person interactions, there
> is a whole set of non-verbal signals that tell you when to back slowly
> away, the "odd smile" for example.  But obviously in online communications,
> you are not going to be able to see how someone smiles.  Harassment on the
> internet is something new, the old HR harassment definitions can't just be
> copy-pasted.
>
> And how far can you go in telling someone they have to adjust to something
> that creeps them out?  On enwiki, we have seen women advised to "keep a low
> profile" if they don't want to be photoshopped onto porn.  So the
> "encyclopedia that anyone can edit" is now "the encyclopedia that anyone
> can edit as long as they don't mind potential employers finding
> non-consensual pornographic images of them on the internet".
> Paradoxically, the WMF has gone the opposite direction from arbcom,
> particularly in their recent safe space event policy, although the means of
> enforcement are not very evident.
>
>
Interestingly the WMF harassment survey didn't specifically call out sexual
harassment as a type. Male and female respondents reported roughly similar
levels of harassment experienced, although those who responded as "other
gender" experienced significantly higher rates. Of the examples of
harassment given, many (when they occur on-wiki) are of the "block on
sight" type - assuming they are reported. Many were also not overtly sexual
in nature, although some call out gender in a way that might not qualify as
sexual harassment per se (one example is "Die CIS Scum!").  If harassment
is indeed a significant factor in the gender gap - and I don't think that
has been established - its not clear what strategies could result in real
progress in preventing harassment or ameliorating its effects.
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Re: [Gendergap] Defining harassment: the first empirical investigation into the nature of creepiness

[Nathan]

It boils down to "people with aberrant behavior or bearing produce anxiety
in women." This is drawn from a Facebook survey. It's interesting, even if
the "study" doesn't really produce any more knowledge than most other
Facebook surveys.

The link to the problem of addressing Wikipedia's gendergap seems tenuous;
are you suggesting that Wikipedia editors display aberrant behavior which
prospective female editors find creepy, making it less likely that they
will contribute?

On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 12:01 PM, Neotarf  wrote:

> A study published in the journal New Ideas in Psychology, unfortunately
> behind a paywall, reviewed by Dr. NerdLove. [1]
>
> Some highlights:
>
> *"*So we’re not allowed to give women compliments?  – *No, telling a
> woman how sexy she is isn’t a compliment, especially when you don’t have
> that level of intimacy with her."
>
> *"One of the keys to what made someone creepy was the potential for
> ambiguity. The study’s authors suggest that because one’s creep-radar is
> keyed towards finding potential threats, the ambiguousness of somebody’s
> behavior could make people uncomfortable. After all, if you’re continually
> wondering if this person actually poses a threat to you, you’re left in a
> state of anxious paralysis; you’re continually on edge trying to determine
> just what the appropriate reaction to the situation is. Guessing wrong can
> have consequences, after all; misjudge a potential threat and now you’ve
> made yourself vulnerable to someone who means you harm."
>
> *"One of the most common ways guys are creepy is by ignoring issues of
> boundaries and demonstrating that they have more information about somebody
> than they should." Example from Instagram: He: "So I take it you're staying
> at the Excalibur?" She: "Excuse me, do you not seriously realize how
> f*cking creepy it is for a stranger to message a woman out of the blue
> insinuating he knows where she is?"
>
> *From the comments: "Someone who comes close to that line and manages not
> to cross it obviously knows where it is."
>
> [1] http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2016/05/the-science-of-being-creepy/
>
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Re: [Gendergap] Signpost op-ed (NSFW)

[Nathan]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 1:52 PM, Risker  wrote:

>
>> If exactly the same article had been written by someone who has a long
> and colourful history of behaviour considered to be very uncivil, nobody
> would be thinking it was an okay article.  It's only okay because Keilana
> wrote it, it wouldn't be okay if someone with a history of alleged misogyny
> wrote it *using exactly the same words*. I doubt very much that the
> Signpost would have published it had it been written by any number of other
> people - in fact, I'm doubtful it would have been published if written by
> any male editor, though Rob could tell us otherwise - but even if they did
> publish it, the reaction would have been infinitely more severe if not for
> the name of the author.
>
> Risker/Anne
>


I think that is purely speculation. You may be right, but it seems like the
opposite could just as easily be true - that because it was written by a
woman, many people felt much more comfortable ignoring the substance of
what she wrote and attacking the attitude and tone she used to write it.

In any case, it seems like it has long been settled that the general use of
profanity on Wikipedia is accepted but not celebrated. Only in extreme
cases is it considered actionable when *actually directed at an individual*.
So it's hard to understand why many editors of long-tenure have reacted in
such a strongly negative manner to this op-ed; it may be the unique nature
of the Signpost, but like Gamaliel I would be surprised to learn that many
users regard the Signpost in the same way devotees do the New York Times.
The most likely conclusion is that profanity and vulgar language are almost
exclusively deployed by men on Wikipedia, and the difference here is that
readers were shocked --shocked!-- to read it from a woman.
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Re: [Gendergap] Signpost op-ed (NSFW)

[Nathan]

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Risker  wrote:

> Give me a break, Neotarf. I am critiquing the article and the decisions by
> its author and its publisher.  It doesn't surprise me that having someone
> of Keilana's stature drop more f-bombs in a couple of paragraphs than I
> heard on a bus full of high school students this morning will change the
> climate to suggest that it is now perfectly acceptable to curse out people
> everywhere under every circumstance.
>
> For some strange reason, it appears the people on this list are
> celebrating that fact.  And it has nothing to do with gender, really, and
> everything to do with making Wikipedia a pleasant place to work.  Keilana's
> actions have encouraged people to make it less so.
>
> Risker/Anne
>


Keilana didn't curse anyone out. That should be kept clear. But it has been
commonplace and acceptable to curse in Wikipedia discussions for ages. You
have witnessed the failure of attempts to curtail cursing etc. first hand,
and "civility police" has at times been one of the worst insults slung
around on the English Wikipedia.  What is strange for some is that
Keilana's op-ed is an example of one of the most benign uses of strong
language, and yet it has garnered a stronger negative reaction than many
much more serious and damaging profane personal attacks.

Additionally, not only have I never heard "badass" used in a derogatory
way, I've never even once heard anyone suggest that it might be used as an
insult. In my experience it has only ever been a compliment. In the context
of Keilana's op-ed, it should be obvious to any reader that she used it
positively.
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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Nathan]

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 8:25 AM, Neotarf <neot...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Could you post a link to one or two of the discussions, and how they went
> down?  I really need to read something like that right now.
>
> On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:50 PM, Nathan <nawr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
Hi Neotarf,

I'm not going to publicly post a list of people I know have been subject to
harassment. I would say that its been a persistent complaint from most or
all of the prominent female Wikipedians; if you can name a functionary,
admin, arbitrator or Board member who is a woman, it is likely that she has
been subject to sustained sexual harassment at some point during her
Wikimedia tenure.

But you could certainly say there is some division in how victims of this
type of harassment have reacted. Some small proportion have reacted in ways
that contradict project policies and have had bad outcomes, but I don't
think that is typical.
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Re: [Gendergap] WP:Harassment finally links to solution for threats!

[Nathan]

On Mon, Sep 28, 2015 at 8:20 PM, Neotarf  wrote:

> @Risker: "I have a simple question to ask:  How many people in this thread
> have publicly or privately requested to the Wikimedia Foundation ED that
> additional resources be assigned to trust and safety issues such as death
> threats?"
>
> Answer: 26.
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Community_discussion_on_harassment_reporting
>
> That said, everyone I know of who has ever publicly objected to sexual
> harassment has subsequently been indeffed.  Maybe that's what the essay
> should say.
>
>

Really? I can name a half dozen off the top of my head that became admins,
functionaries, arbitrators, etc. At least some are still active. I don't
think "if you report harassment you'll be blocked indefinitely" would be an
accurate thing to tell people.

I think Kerry's post sort of misses the point. No one will argue that even
"joke" death threats are acceptable or fine; there just is no point in
wasting police resources by reporting "threats" that turn out to be joke
memes or totally unserious. The police realize this and ignore most
threats; unfortunately, they don't have any reliable method for sorting out
the 1 threat in a million that represents real danger.
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Re: [Gendergap] The (non-existent) Farkhunda Wikipedia article--victim or rallying point

[Nathan]

It could just as easily be argued the other way, I think. It's presumptuous
and perhaps insulting to purport to create a biography on a person, under
her own name, while merely recounting a single tragic occurrence in her
life. Since there is often not enough verifiable information to create a
biography, it makes some sense to not assert that Wikipedia is doing so.
Moreover... It's generally bad practice to apply principles of search
engine optimization to editing an encyclopedia.

And as for fistula... That article isn't great, I agree. However, vaginal
fistulas are not the only or even the most common use of that term. Even in
medicine, they are a subset of the broader phenomena.

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 5:45 PM, Neotarf neot...@gmail.com wrote:

 Articles about women are getting lost.  Lost that is, to Google searches.

 For the last two days, Afghanistan has been exploding in demonstrations
 over Farkhunda, a Kabul woman who was beaten to death and torched by a mob.
 Even though every major news source has done a piece on her, I can't find
 an article for her yet in Wikipedia.  When it does get written, and finally
 starts showing up in the search engines, what will it say? Farkhunda, the
 logical search term?  Or more likely, the more common format: the
 murder/lynching/battering/victimization/humiliation of [insert woman's name
 here].


 For quite some time, the article for Ozgecan Aslan was hidden from Google
 searches as well, because due to the English Wikipedia's unique naming
 conventions, the article was called Murder of Özgecan Aslan.


 Maybe it's time to reconsider naming articles about women for the horrible
 things that were done to them, and give them the simple dignity of their
 own names.  I'm not sure the victimization narrative is the right one
 anyhow.  The Farkhunda story seems to be about her death becoming a
 rallying point for the way women are treated in Afghanistan, much as Aslan
 was in Turkey.


 What else?  Iraqi lawyer Samira Salih al-Nuaimi still comes up 6th in a
 Google search, *after* the entry for the Daily Mail, because of the
 idiosyncratic spelling of her name in the article title. But at least you
 can find her (very, very short) article now.


 And since I've already written this much, the article on fistula
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fistula, a problem for a huge number of
 girls in parts of the Global South, is not very well explained.  Compare 
 Female
 genital mutilation or even Women's rights in 2014
 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Women%27s_rights_in_2014redirect=no.
 (thx, SV).   Also reference the short article on Fatimata Touré
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatimata_Tour%C3%A9, whose group in Mali
 works against fistula.


 Note: for Farkhunda, see Twitter photos
 https://twitter.com/hashtag/Farkhunda?src=hash and WaPo http://
 www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/03/23/afghan-woman-beaten-to-death-for-a-crime-she-didnt-commit-becomes-a-rallying-point-for-activists/


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Re: [Gendergap] The (non-existent) Farkhunda Wikipedia article--victim or rallying point

[Nathan]

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 6:05 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org
wrote:

 Is there an article on vaginal fistula? I would look it up myself, but
 I'm at work :)


There is indeed. And also rectovaginal fistula - its definitely a cluster
of articles that can use some TLC, but the coverage is there and fairly
broad and available.
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Re: [Gendergap] press coverage of Gamergate arbcom case

[Nathan]

On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 2:59 PM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com
 wrote:


 After reviewing the Arbcom case, I don't even know who got the idea that
 any of the contributing editors are feminist, per se. No one even mentions
 the word, except once, when describing a subject that was slandered in
 the gamer gate article(s).


 ​Hi Sarah, I think the point is that editors who were defending the rights
 and privacy of the women involved in Gamergate are being sanctioned because
 (I assume) they did it in some sense inappropriately, perhaps too
 aggressively, I don't know. (I don't know the details.)

 In that sense it looks like a repeat of the gender gap task force
 decision. In the latter, those trying to stop disruption were sanctioned
 even harder than those causing it.

 The message those cases send is that, if you're trying to protect women's
 interests, you have to creep around and not stick your neck out. The
 Chelsea Manning case had similar problems, and Sceptre recently expressed
 the same concern about the Sexology case.

 Another aspect of this is that we've been undermining admins for years so
 that they (we) are reluctant to act at an early stage to nip things in the
 bud. As Tony Sidaway wrote: The administrator corps must be coaxed out
 of their inappropriate and destructive timidity. I was glad to see the
 ArbCom's proposed decision thank the admins who have worked on this.

 Sarah



I think the lesson it sends is that a righteous cause is not a defense
against accusations of disruption, nor a license to violate other policies.
I'm sure that among the restricted people are those with positions I'd
support along with many others, but that doesn't put their behavior above
reproach. Tony Sidaway was hardly the paragon of a calm and thoughtful
administrator - insightful as he often was, there was a reason he was fired
as a clerk and barred from simply requesting his bit back.
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Re: [Gendergap] GGTF talk page

[Nathan]

You could just start over. Open a collab space in someone's userspace,
redirect WP:GGTF to that spot, and invite a few people to come collaborate.
Having it in userspace is probably the best (if still minimal) protection
against trolls and ne'er-do-wells.
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Re: [Gendergap] GGTF talk page

[Nathan]

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 Carollet's just deconstruct what you're saying here.

 If we were to take the words female and male and women and men out
 of it entirely, would it sum up one of the major issues in editor
 retention?  I'm going to be honest, I've read a genuinely disproportionate
 number of insulting edits made by women (as a percentage of overall edits
 by editors I know to be women), and it's something that needs to be kept in
 mind; while the overwhelming majority of editors are male, I've not seen
 any evidence that a male editor is any more or less likely to behave badly
 than a female editor.  It's just more obvious because they outnumber us 10
 to 1.



On the subject of gender nomenclature, I continue to find it interesting
when for some writers males are males and females are women in normal
usage. Not just picking on Carol, because I've observed it on a
semi-regular basis - but almost exclusively where feminist topics are being
discussed.
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Re: [Gendergap] GGTF talk page

[Nathan]

I've just read through the last few weeks of discussion on that talkpage,
and I can't blame anyone for abandoning it. Holy cow! What a mess. The last
thing I would ever recommend someone do is bring an article or discussion
there for feedback, support, assistance, etc. let alone any idea about the
actual gender gap.
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Re: [Gendergap] Wikimedia Conference (was - Diversity training for functionaries)

[Nathan]

On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hi Anne, Kerry and Christina - and everyone else,

 So the Wikimedia Conference programme committee appears keen to do
 something useful in terms of creating space for gender - gap work. So I
 wondered if you had any further thoughts about what *might* work at the
 Wikimedia Conference.

 As Anne points out it is an audience of people from Wikimedia movement
 organisations - board members, executive directors (where they exist), and
 a smaller number of other staff. Compared to other Wikimedia events there
 is probably a greater language and geographical diversity. There is also a
 reasonable degree of awareness of the issue - better than one would find if
 you put english Wikipedia administrators in a room.

 The main focus for the conference is going to be on helping Wikimedia
 organisations grow, learn and improve - we are looking to give people
 practical outcomes, and are avoiding theoretical discussion as far as
 possible.

 Thoughts on what we can put in the programme on this issue are very
 welcome :) (I'll pass everything on to the programme committee, though I
 suspect I'm not the only member of it subscribed to this list).

 Thanks and happy new year!

 Chris


The simplest thing to do is to describe the gender gap related efforts that
other organizations have sponsored, urge the various movement entities to
consider their own initiatives and - especially - push them to innovate.
Few if any organized efforts have resulted in even small lasting change, so
brainstorming ways in which chapters etc. can put their resources - real
life organization and money - to use will be of greatest benefit.  This is
an area where a chapter or affiliate has the opportunity to be a global
leader and to have a high profile impact, and the more they understand that
the more likely they are to participate.
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Re: [Gendergap] Iraqi human rights lawyer Samira Salih al-Nuaimi tortured and executed because Facebook; where is her Wikipedia article?

[Nathan]

On Wed, Dec 24, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net
wrote:


 http://www.examiner.com/article/wikipedia-biographies-favor-men

 http://www.examiner.com/article/jimmy-wales-shows-favoritism-on-wikipedia
 hmmm, interesting but dated...

 http://www.examiner.com/article/number-of-women-going-down-on-wikipedia

 Merry Solstice!
 See my video - http://merrysolstice.com



Carol, are you familiar with that author and his history with the projects?
He's not exactly an objective journalist (or a journalist of any kind,
actually).
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Re: [Gendergap] Iraqi human rights lawyer Samira Salih al-Nuaimi tortured and executed because Facebook; where is her Wikipedia article?

[Nathan]

On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:44 AM, Leigh Honeywell le...@hypatia.ca wrote:

 With my mod hat on, Neotarf, please cease the you could's here. Further
 hypotheticals will get you modded.

 Thanks,

 -Leigh


What about Neotarf's post, which you quoted, would merit moderation and
under what principle? It seemed perfectly civil and constructive to me,
even if Neotarf does miss the point a bit as Risker noted.
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Re: [Gendergap] Gender gap emails Arbitrator doesn't like

[Nathan]

On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 9:53 PM, GorillaWarfare 
gorillawarfarewikipe...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 8:54 PM, Jim Hayes slowki...@gmail.com wrote:

 i do not appreciate being outed by an arbitrator
 linking a private email message to a public talk page.


 What?

 – Molly (GorillaWarfare)


Probably referring to the likely fact that most people on this list didn't
know he was Kumioko. Not sure if connecting two pseudonyms together counts
as outing.
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Re: [Gendergap] a gender gap meet-up?

[Nathan]

No, nothing described below constitutes fraud of any kind.

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net
wrote:

  Let's just call it what it is - internet fraud...

 On 12/10/2014 12:02 PM, regu...@gmail.com wrote:

  That is joe jobbing.



 Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE device





 -- Original message--

 *From: *LB

 *Date: *Wed, Dec 10, 2014 11:58 AM

 *To: *Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
 participation of women within Wikimedia projects.;

 *Subject:*Re: [Gendergap] a gender gap meet-up?


 Is there a term (like joe job) for when someone pretends to be you to
 get you into trouble? In my case, after I'd already been blocked for a
 week, an IP address deleted some info
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=100tagfilter=title=Special%3AContributionscontribs=usertarget=69.16.147.185namespace=tagfilter=year=2014month=12
 that I'd asked to have revdeled. It's *possible* it was someone who
 thought they were helping me, but it's also possible - maybe probable -
 that someone did it maliciously so an admin would think I was dodging my
 block.


  Lightbreather



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Re: [Gendergap] a gender gap meet-up?

[Nathan]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net
wrote:


  How do you know?

 For example, maybe there are secretly for profit, paid editors
 on Wikipedia who feel threatened by more Admin and/or
 Foundation scrutiny of the kind that some editors have
 been promoting, sometimes for years.

 GGTF has too many snoopy, boat rocking editors.
 Getting rid of such editors allows them to continue to make
 money without pesky snoops. If faking IPs helps discredit those
 editors and get them blocked, so they can continue their
 secret paid editing, that's fraud.

 Or maybe someone who doesn't like GGTF or Lightbreather
 paid someone $50 to fake the IP and Lightbreather-like
 comments in order to cover their tracks.

 Maybe there's someone making a good living faking
 3 or 4 IPs a week in some topic area where some
 organization wants to discredit some BLPs or
 companies or even a whole nation.  So they flood
 the topic area with socks from phony IPs
 and then it's easy to claim new editors are socks
 and get rid of them before they can learn
 the ropes and deal with POV edits.

 I'm sure there are all sorts of more examples
 of what might be happening we could come up with.

  So don't claim there is no fraud when there could
 be fraud going on...

 CM


Those are some outlandishly unlikely scenarios, just as unlikely as you
being secretly an impersonator of the real Carol Moore hired to defame the
real Carol by getting banned on Wikipedia. As I said, outlandish and
unlikely. In the absence of evidence of fraud, concluding that fraud exists
(Let's call it what it is... Internet fraud) defies reason.
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Re: [Gendergap] a gender gap meet-up?

[Nathan]

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:39 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net
wrote:

 Speculation on the monetary gain definition of fraud is lots of
 fun. However,  we all know fraud has a wider meaning as
 two dictionary definitions show.

 http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fraud
 1 a :  deceit, trickery; specifically :  intentional perversion of truth
 in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender
 a legal right
 b :  an act of deceiving or misrepresenting :  trick
 2. a :  a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : impostor; also
 :  one who defrauds :  cheat
 b :  one that is not what it seems or is represented to be

 http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fraud?s=t
 noun
 1. deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated
 for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
 2. a particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud; election
 frauds.
 3. any deception, trickery, or humbug: That diet book is a fraud and a
 waste of time.
 4. a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.

 I think most people who were victim of some false
 email pretending they engaged in obnoxous or
 illegal behavior would say the email was a fraud
 and the person who sent it was one too..




 I suspect Internet fraud has a narrower definition. In any case, an IP
with a single edit removing information that someone else asked be removed
is not proof even of deception, let alone any definition of fraud. And as
convincing as LB's protests sound (and they do sound convincing), Risker
and other people with CU experience have declined to overturn or speak
against the block extension.
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Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap achievement award (Second try)

[Nathan]

I was thinking of something maybe a little more formal and prestigious,
like a monetary award with a plaque, and a small committee reviewing
nominations to select a recipient. Never underestimate the power a formal
award has to both confer a sense of legitimacy and raise awareness of an
issue. I'd be willing to donate to the funding of such an award, if a
chapter or user group could be found to administer it.
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Re: [Gendergap] Relevant election questions for Arbcom

[Nathan]

I'm not sure I love the idea of asking people to identify with a gender or
sexuality when they haven't done so already. If they have already done so,
then the question is superfluous. Better to ask them their position on the
actual issue, and if they think there is anything arbcom or the project as
a whole can do better.

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 11:45 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote:

 In the light of the contentious Gender Gap Task Force case, I have
 raised the following question for candidates in the current election:
 I'm having difficulty visualizing how Arbcom today represents the
 diversity of our community. Would you like to identify yourself as a
 woman or LGBT, and explain what life experience and values you would
 bring to the committee when these become topics or a locus of
 dispute?

 I will be voting for women and open LGBT candidates that bring some
 relevant and diverse life experience to committee, and against
 everyone else. I am sure they will get enough votes from the majority
 viewpoint anyway.

 You can find all candidate questions and their answers at
 
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee_Elections_December_2014/Questions
 .
 Don't forget to vote - there are 6 days left!

 Fae
 --
 fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Gendergap] Moving Forward

[Nathan]

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Tim Davenport shoehu...@gmail.com wrote:



 (1) Political organizing should happen off wiki, not on wiki. This is just
 as true for WikiProject Conservatism as it is for WikiProject Gender Gap
 Task Force. Wikipedia is not the place. Go for it, just not there.


It's not political organizing and the two projects you identify are
fundamentally different. A conservatism wikiproject is aimed at ensuring
complete coverage of topics related to political conservatism; its an
encyclopedic, content project. The GGTF is a very different project, with
content development as *a* goal but the primary objective is addressing the
identified and well supported gender gap in the editing population.
Developing a more diverse and representative body of editors is not a
*political* goal.


 (2) GGTF misfired by obsessively identifying with civility patrolling as
 its primary function. At a minimum, that is putting the cart before the
 horse. Going further: I would argue that it is an an absolutely misplaced
 predilection, that a very low-importance contributing factor to WP editor
 gender disparity has been elevated into The Main Reason without statistical
 evidence. It's a hot-button topic at WP and it was a fight poorly chosen.


Someone else will chime into citations but certainly it is commonly
reported by users, and in the press, that the sometimes toxic cultural
atmosphere on Wikipedia contributes to deterring female editors. With this
conclusion in hand, it is completely reasonable for a task force trying to
make the project more comfortable for women to address instances of sexist
language and sex-related incivility.


 (3) Here's what needs to happen:

 *A. Quantify and track the actual gender gap at WP over time.*
 Anecdotally, female participation at events like Wikimania is significantly
 greater than the 1F:7M ratio that would be anticipated from the estimated
 ratio of registered editors. Does this mean that the differential is
 exaggerated due to an undercount or under-self-reporting of female editors?
 Why are there not annual estimates made and tracked by WMF or by GGTF
 itself?


The ability of any outside group to do mass surveys on Wikipedia or any
Wikimedia project is limited, but the WMF has done several surveys which
have included gender statistics. They have consistently shown a massive
gender disparity; whether the ratio is 9% or 10% or 13%, it is far away
from the gender split of the Internet as a whole or other Web 2.0
properties. The surveys may have problems, some may be old, there may be an
issue with people who decline to identify. But regardless, and despite your
repeated requests for an accurate count, there is and can be no question
that a very large gender gap does exist.




 *C. Coordinate pro-active recruitment.* Edit-a-thons, university
 outreach, etc. targeting new female participants. This is the main way that
 gender disparity will be overcome — one new editor at a time.


Edit-a-thons and university outreach have been done by chapters and the
WMF, as well as other groups of users, for years. None have shown a
sustained impact around developing new editors, and certainly none can
scale enough to address the gender gap.


 *D. Targeted, organized mentoring.* Watch the new editor pool and target
 female newcomers. Help them through the learning curve. Too often newcomers
 of both genders are left isolated; bring them into the community.


As above. It's nice that you extend the benefit of doubt to Eric Corbett
(or Mr. Corbett, as you say), and presume to his credit that his use of
some words is down to ignorance or provincialism. I only wish that you
might extend the same benefit to those you label disruptionists, or at
least merely consider that they have been hounded and pressured by critics
into the sort of frustration that might provoke outbursts by anyone.
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[Gendergap] Gendergap achievement award

[Nathan]

So as I was replying to Tim, it occurred to me that there wasn't much
pleasure or recognition to be gained from working in the trenches on the
culture of Wikipedia or the gender gap problem as a whole. Individuals are
most likely to have bans, blocks and battle scars to show for their effort.

So perhaps the task force, the list, or a willing chapter could establish
an award or two to be given to those who invest their volunteer time on
this issue? It would be nice if folks like Sarah or Carol or others could
point to real life recognition to say this is a real problem, I'm doing
real work, and real people and organizations recognize and respect what I'm
doing.

Perhaps such awards already exist?
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Re: [Gendergap] What's happening at ArbCom re WP:GGTF

[Nathan]

ArbCom is weak, and loathe to make any decision that might trigger a
backlash. They are incapable of dealing with serious, long-term problems
and seem able only to address minor issues that would otherwise resolve on
their own. The English Wikipedia is ungoverned and ungovernable, and the
norms of behavior are too palsied to make enforcement of policy even
slightly consistent. The whole endeavor makes more sense if we simply
accept that it exists in a state of anarchy and that this will likely not
change.

On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 2:09 PM, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 This is what is about to happen at the English Wikipedia ArbCom re
 disruption at the Gender Gap Task Force:
 *Five men and two women were involved parties in the case.
 *One women is about to be site banned.
 *The other woman is about to be topic banned from the GGTF.
 *All five men are going to be free to edit.

 It is noteworthy, IMO, that only 1 of the 12 arbitrators is a woman
 (GorillaWarfare, bless her, who is not for giving WP's #1 trouble-maker,
 Eric Corbet, yet *another* chance). Here is a link to the Proposed
 decision page:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender_Gap_Task_Force/Proposed_decision

 And to the talk page:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender_Gap_Task_Force/Proposed_decision

 Lightbreather

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Re: [Gendergap] What's happening at ArbCom re WP:GGTF

[Nathan]

It's really two issues - one, there was some disruption and misconduct
around the Gender Gap wikiproject that really got overblown a bit and never
needed to be an arbitration case to begin with. Granted that some of the
participants weren't really contributing in good faith, and that there was
a little bit of misunderstanding and overreaction on the part of some who
were.

The second issue is that there is a particular person who is an absolutely
outstanding article writer, but has a longstanding habit of acting like a
jerk on a regular basis. The community and the committee have repeatedly
shown themselves to be incapable of finding a solution to that problem, and
this is no exception.
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Re: [Gendergap] [arbcom-appeals-en] [Child Protection Policy]

[Nathan]

Why has this e-mail been crossposted to the gender gap list?

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 10:41 AM, Romana Busse romana.bu...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Dear Anthony (AGK)

 I'm very sorry to bother you, but could I have a timeline with respect
 to deletion, or not, of those images ?

 With the welfare of the children in mind, I feel that the school, the
 children's parents and the local child welfare committees, magistrates
 and police should be properly sensitized  to the incidents of that
 day, and to ensure it cannot reoccur

 I'm sure the police and the Indian Govt Cyber Advisory Committee would
 be interested in learning from you or NYBrad  the finer points of law
 whereby Citizendium encyclopedia decides to completely wipes out the
 images within 12 hours but Wikipedia has not done anything till now on
 identical complaint.

 I would also like to know by when you will publish across all
 Wikipedia projects the complete list of accounts and IPs I have
 allegedly used, and also if I am a sockpuppet of User:MehulWB as
 alleged or not. This is required by your same policy WP:SOCK under
 which was blocked.

 Thanks

 On 11/18/14, Romana Busse romana.bu...@gmail.com wrote:
  This is about a potential threat to clearly identifiable Indian minor
  school children whose images are retained on WMF servers in USA and
  India despite legal notice to remove them.
  Taken within their school (where their parents expected the same
  degree of privacy as they enjoy at home) and uploaded without their
  permission, consent or knowledge, at a location where they allegedly
  viewed grossly obscene pornography accessed on a Wikimedia Foundation
  service which has now been disabled on complaint by a body called
  [[India Against Corruption]].

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Re: [Gendergap] [arbcom-appeals-en] [Child Protection Policy]Gender Gap issues

[Nathan]

Hello the moderators, I think the legal threats implied in this e-mail (and
the other) are sufficient to warrant moderating the sender.

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Romana Busse romana.bu...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Dear Mr. Davies

 From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee#Members
 I observe you are an inactive Member of this alleged committee. I
 hence suspect that your email is bogus.

 Accordingly I would appreciate receiving a signed email, or even a
 scanned signed email clearly given on behalf of the Arbitration
 Committee listing its physical address for service of legal process.

 I am shocked by the casual and secretive approach adopted to such
 concerns of child pornography, especially when it was previously made
 on another website http://wikipediocracy.com, naming 2 of your users
 Sitush and Bishonen using sexually colored language and referring
 to child pornography on your website. This Sitush is a serial stalker
 and harasser of female Wikipedia editors as your Arbcom knows well..

 It is certainly strange that I was blocked as a sock puppet at the
 instance of these same 2 users (1 of whom is your Admin) when I
 brought that message to their attention.  It seems Wikipedia actively
 discourages reporting such sexual harassment to Admins and wipes out
 all trace of it from public gaze, to the extent of terminating the
 account of the person who reported me for being an alleged
 sockpuppet..

 It is even stranger that you will not disclose / specify the multiple
 accounts and IPs I am accused of using as an alleged sock puppet or
 why I am accused of being an India Against Corruption sockpuppet when
 I have never edited any page concerned with that body. It is very
 strange that Arbcom will not comply with its own policies for this. .

 It is clear that the Arbcom is covering up the actions of its
 anonymous users implicated in child pornography by another website.

 I urge you to reconsider as I firmly intend to pursue this matter and
 investigate all your own antecedents on your inactions..

 On 11/19/14, Roger Davies roger.davies.w...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Romana Busse:
 
  This is to acknowledge receipt of your emails of yesterday and today.
 
  The Arbitration Committee is unable to assist you further in this
  matter. Any further communications should be sent to:
 
  le...@wikimedia.org
 
  Roger Davies
  Arbitration Committee
 
 
 
  On 18/11/2014 15:41, Romana Busse wrote:
  Dear Anthony (AGK)
 
  I'm very sorry to bother you, but could I have a timeline with respect
  to deletion, or not, of those images ?
 
  With the welfare of the children in mind, I feel that the school, the
  children's parents and the local child welfare committees, magistrates
  and police should be properly sensitized  to the incidents of that
  day, and to ensure it cannot reoccur
 
  I'm sure the police and the Indian Govt Cyber Advisory Committee would
  be interested in learning from you or NYBrad  the finer points of law
  whereby Citizendium encyclopedia decides to completely wipes out the
  images within 12 hours but Wikipedia has not done anything till now on
  identical complaint.
 
  I would also like to know by when you will publish across all
  Wikipedia projects the complete list of accounts and IPs I have
  allegedly used, and also if I am a sockpuppet of User:MehulWB as
  alleged or not. This is required by your same policy WP:SOCK under
  which was blocked.
 
  Thanks
 
  On 11/18/14, Romana Busse romana.bu...@gmail.com wrote:
  This is about a potential threat to clearly identifiable Indian minor
  school children whose images are retained on WMF servers in USA and
  India despite legal notice to remove them.
  Taken within their school (where their parents expected the same
  degree of privacy as they enjoy at home) and uploaded without their
  permission, consent or knowledge, at a location where they allegedly
  viewed grossly obscene pornography accessed on a Wikimedia Foundation
  service which has now been disabled on complaint by a body called
  [[India Against Corruption]].
 
  ___
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  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BASC
  https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/arbcom-appeals-en
 
 

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Re: [Gendergap] WikiWomen's Collaborative Social Media + some other stuff

[Nathan]

Hi Sarah,

I don't see you as an outsider at all, and I hope most others don't either.
I'm happy to see some of your energy and dedication return to these efforts
;)
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Re: [Gendergap] Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter

[Nathan]

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 8:46 AM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net
wrote:

  On 9/9/2014 7:51 PM, LB wrote:

 I'm going to keep at it, for now. Honestly, I'm tired of it being a mostly
 internally discussed problem... Perhaps I'll change my mind at some point,
 but that's my thinking on it at this time.

  Lightbreather

 You are braver than I!  On the other hand this is what
 [[User:Jayen466|Andreas]]  wrote when I complained the woman editor was
 being harassed off line:



 *Criticising the quality of an editor's work, whether here or
 elsewhere, is not harassment. This is not a private project, but a public
 one, with a significant impact on public life. Any such public project
 should be prepared to be criticised. If someone writes nonsense in a
 science article read and relied on by a million people a year, that is a
 matter of public interest, just like stories like
 [http://twkozlowski.net/the-pot-and-the-kettle-the-wikimedia-way/
 http://twkozlowski.net/the-pot-and-the-kettle-the-wikimedia-way/ this],
 [http://twkozlowski.net/paid-editing-thrives-in-the-heart-of-wikipedia/
 http://twkozlowski.net/paid-editing-thrives-in-the-heart-of-wikipedia/
 this],
 [http://www.salon.com/2013/05/17/revenge_ego_and_the_corruption_of_wikipedia/
 http://www.salon.com/2013/05/17/revenge_ego_and_the_corruption_of_wikipedia/
 this],
 [http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/is-the-pr-industry-buying-influence-over-wikipedia
 http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/is-the-pr-industry-buying-influence-over-wikipedia
 this] or
 [http://www.dailydot.com/politics/croatian-wikipedia-fascist-takeover-controversy-right-wing/
 http://www.dailydot.com/politics/croatian-wikipedia-fascist-takeover-controversy-right-wing/
 this]. If you would like to curtail editors' freedom to speak out about
 Wikipedia's failings in public, this in itself will be a media story, and
 rightly so. Such ideas belong to places like Azerbaijan and North Korea. *Thus
 one would think quoting nasty sexist things, especially when an editor's
 name not mentioned should be ok. This really was a test case, wasn't it?
 (Or not in a community that still applies double standards to male vs.
 female actions.)

 Here's the link to the ANI in question:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive835#Harassment



Where were the sexist comments? The user complaining of harassment and the
user accused of harassment were both women, and I see no comments about
gender in either the AN/I or the extensive editor review. The harassment
complained of was the persistence of an editor in following another editor
around and pointing out errors in many of her articles, and the
argumentative and derisive attitude of the first towards the latter.
Andreas' point is that criticism, by itself, is not harassment. Many agreed
with the criticism but advised the critic that she needed an attitude
adjustment. At that point she disengaged.

So it's a problem when we conflate circumstances which do not implicate
gender or sexism with those that do. Calling this an example of sexism
muddies the waters, particularly when there are many examples that are
perfectly clear cut.  It *is* an example of the hassle and angry debate
involved in contributing to Wikipedia, though, and I can certainly see how
that would drive all sorts of people away from the project.
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Re: [Gendergap] Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter

[Nathan]

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 11:58 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hi. Some people can't speak up about what happened for legal reasons.

 I do think there is a double standard. But I have before my involvement in
 wiki. Living in the US it's a way of life.

 Some women who were impacted by those posts were harassed by people
 involved way prior to making their own minor and harmless in the end game
 errors which got them in trouble. Women just did not take action or make
 it public. No one should have to post on a public website that they have
 been sexually harassed to get help. And bad people on the internet are
 common is the general response.

 There are also male staff members who did things considered illegal in the
 US courts who still have their jobs (some don't work there anymore but it
 shocked many of us women they were allowed to stay so long given their
 behaviors). Amazing how that works.

 But, some of us can't and are afraid to talk about it. Some of us just
 want closure but the trolls and internet won't give it to us. (And it's not
 just me...)

 And no I am not elaborating on or offlist. So don't ask. I gave up
 fighting after I lost my job. So I commend those who still care.

 I love the Twitter feed, by the way.

 Sarah
 On Sep 10, 2014 8:41 AM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote



Hi Sarah, I'm sorry if I was unclear. I was understanding Carol as saying
that there were sexist comments in the ANI she linked (where Andreas'
quoted comment was found). I read the entire AN/I thread and the editor
review and found none.

Of course I realize that there are many, many instances of terrible sexual
harassment on the Internet and throughout the history of Wikipedia. My
point about muddying the waters is that these examples are enough to
convince anyone open to being convinced that there is a problem. It is
unnecessary to attach these real issues to examples that don't reflect
sexism or gender-related harassment.

That said, even though I don't see sexism or gender in the example, it is a
good example of the spiteful, bitter, battlefield atmosphere that
characterizes disputes on Wikipedia.
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Re: [Gendergap] Novel by Woman-Deletion

[Nathan]

Hi Kathleen,

The only thing that I can see that is being considered for deletion is the
Category:Novels set in Namaqualand (which currently contains only the
article for [[October (novel)]]. The article about the novel itself does
not seem to be in danger of deletion. How can we help?

~Nathan
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Re: [Gendergap] Novel by Woman-Deletion

[Nathan]

On Tue, Jul 22, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Kathleen McCook klmcc...@gmail.com wrote:

 I took off the scheduled for deletion notice or maybe it was lack of
 notability he put up. I couldn't bear. I am fearful he will put it back.

 This is the issue--how can a male editor decide a woman's novel is not
 notable. on what basis? On what basis in Clive Cussler notable?




Hi Kathleen, in answer to your question, the notability guideline is the
basis by which both male and female editors should assess articles. You can
find it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability


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Re: [Gendergap] Zoë Wicomb or Clive Cussler?

[Nathan]

I'm sure you are right. The rules are not applied evenly across articles at
all. It's a myth, or common misconception, that Wikipedia is a system
that functions as we are used to institutional systems functioning. The
vast ruleset is just a toolbox, with tools that different people pick up
and use in different ways. The innumerable differences in interest and
motivation make the deployment of policies against content look random.
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Re: [Gendergap] Adrienne Wadewitz featured in short piece about Gendergap on the English Wikipedia

[Nathan]

On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 7:13 PM, Valerie Aurora vale...@adainitiative.org
wrote:



 That is, as a result of comments like these, we end up having a
 discussion about something other than women's participation in
 Wikimedia projects. When this happens frequently, people end up
 feeling discouraged from bringing up topics like There is a lot of
 misogyny in these comments, is there anything we can do about it?
 because they know they are likely to get a response of, Men/people of
 color/other oppressed groups have this happen to them too. I know it
 is not your intention to shut down discussion about women in Wikimedia
 projects, but that's often the effect of comments like these.

 -VAL


Hi Val,

The discussion at that point was about Internet commenters. As you may
know, that's not quite how Wikimedia projects work, and certainly the
discussion wasn't referring to commenters on a Wikimedia project. Emily
can't be blamed for the discussion going off the gendergap topic.

When you ask someone not to comment, or not to make comments that in no way
violate any behavioral norms, you make the list a less welcoming place for
that person and others to express themselves. Discussion on this list (and
any Wikimedia list) should be open, and civil participants should be
engaged and not shushed. If you want to make the argument that anonymous
comments disproportionately affect and hurt women, and contribute to gender
gaps in many areas of the Internet, please feel free. You'd be right to do
so, in my opinion, and you can do that without discouraging Emily from
posting her thoughts.

Nathan
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Re: [Gendergap] Adrienne Wadewitz featured in short piece about Gendergap on the English Wikipedia

[Nathan]

On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 10:56 PM, Leigh Honeywell le...@hypatia.ca wrote:

 On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote:
  Hi Val,
 
  The discussion at that point was about Internet commenters. As you may
 know, that's not quite how Wikimedia projects work, and certainly the
 discussion wasn't referring to commenters on a Wikimedia project. Emily
 can't be blamed for the discussion going off the gendergap topic.
 
  When you ask someone not to comment, or not to make comments that in no
 way violate any behavioral norms, you make the list a less welcoming place
 for that person and others to express themselves. Discussion on this list
 (and any Wikimedia list) should be open, and civil participants should be
 engaged and not shushed. If you want to make the argument that anonymous
 comments disproportionately affect and hurt women, and contribute to gender
 gaps in many areas of the Internet, please feel free. You'd be right to do
 so, in my opinion, and you can do that without discouraging Emily from
 posting her thoughts.
 
  Nathan

 Donning my mod hat here for a moment.

 Asking people to prioritize the topic of the list (addressing the
 gender gap) is not shushing, and it is rude of you to dismiss the
 substance of Val's criticism as that. I will be placing you on
 moderation if I see anything like that again.

 There is always a balance to be struck between tangents and focused
 discussion. I am happy that we've had this thread to remind us all of
 what our purpose is here - to discuss solutions to the gender gap.

 -Leigh



You're entitled to your opinion, Leigh, but I stand by my assessment that
by being the 4th person in a row to post about Internet commenters on a
non-Wikimedia site, Emily was not responsible for moving the topic away
from the gendergap and Val was incorrect to admonish her for doing so.

But perhaps it's the intention that participation on this list be severely
constrained, where posters should worry after each post that they'll be
corrected condescendingly and / or threatened with moderation for
disagreeing with another participant. If that's the case, I for one am
happy to predict that the gendergap list will never achieve a sliver of its
goal (not that it has up til now, of course).
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Re: [Gendergap] Addressing incivility (was: men on lists)

[Nathan]

On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 10:57 AM, Sydney Poore sydney.po...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Hi there,

 I'm flagging the major issues that need to be considered.

 1) we can not promise anonymity for the people acting as adjudicators. Any
 attempt to have anonymous people hearing a case will attract attention from
 a group if obsessive people who out anyone who is anonymous. Plus at times
 harass them.

 2) the reasons that people enforcing the rules on Wikipedia ignore
 incivility, harassment, and trolling is because that approach is often the
 best way to stop attention seeking behavior. The idea to not feed trolls
 is well engrained into the culture and advise given by mature and
 experienced people on the Internet.

 3) blocks on Wikipedia are not suppose to be punitive but intended to
 immediately stop disruptive user behavior. Attempts to use them to change
 conduct is generally not successful. Instead people who are blocked often
 become entrenched in proving that they are being treated poorly.

 3) there is no way to stop people from editing Wikipedia. The wiki
 software as used by WMF allows easy access to join, and edit. Attempts to
 stop blocked or banned users from editing is part of what causes
 administrators to burn out and ignore problems or over react to them.

 4) banning people very engaged in the community rarely causes them to go
 away.

 Sydney



So we can't bar people from using the site, and we don't have effective
moderation tools (or moderators). We also realize that even if we had
either, they would be used on only a teeny tiny sliver of all pages, and
only by those who know about them and how to take advantage of them.

This all suggests that the only cures to civility are to radically
restrict how freely users can interact, or change the culture of the
Internet. The first is antithetical to the nature of Wikimedia projects,
and the second is impossible, so...

Perhaps we decide that curing incivility is a bridge too far, and focus
efforts to narrow the gender gap on other more practical opportunities.
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Re: [Gendergap] A reason to celebrate

[Nathan]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 1:05 AM, Valerie Aurora vale...@adainitiative.org
wrote:

 I find this email, like many others of Shlomi's, to be creepy and
 inappropriate.

 -VAL

 On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 5:08 AM, Shlomi Fish shlo...@shlomifish.org
 wrote:
  Hi Christine,
 
  On Sun, 8 Jun 2014 22:16:17 -0700
  Christine Meyer christinewme...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Hi all,
 
  Yes, I'm responsible for the Angelou article.  I must say, when I saw
 the
  view counts in the Signpost, I was overwhelmed and honored that for my
 part
  in bringing Dr. Angelou's bio article, as well as all seven of her
  autobiographies, the list of her works, and articles about her poetry
 and
  themes in her autobiographies, all to FA status.  I also feel proud that
  the English WP honored this great artist with high-quality articles when
  the world most needed them.
 
 
  Many thanks for your work on it. Here's a photo of a kitten whom I found
 very
  cute as a token of my appreciation:
 
  * http://imgur.com/NmQOgTH
 
  Love you (♥)!
 
  Regards,
 
  Shlomi Fish



Hi Valerie - can you elaborate a little? I've cc'd Kevin and
gendergap-owners so the list moderators can be made aware of your comments.

Thanks.
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Re: [Gendergap] A cautionary tale

[Nathan]

On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 11:26 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:
snip

 The focus on technology here is very important.  Right now, there is no
 way for Wikimedians to control from whom they receive email this user
 emails, or pings through the notification system. We know that both have
 been, and continue to be, vectors for harassment and trolling.  There's
 never, to my knowledge, been any consideration given to including these
 features.  We keep being told we're going to get this wonderful new
 communication system called Flow  to replace talk pages.  Features that
 allow users to control who posts to their page, or even to let non-admin
 users remove individual threads or posts from their stream, aren't
 included - and I'm not sure they're even under consideration.

 snip

 Risker


This is an area where I'd really like to see Lila help out (is she
subscribed to this list?). If there is some recognition at the top that the
gender gap is one of the most important, fundamental problems facing the
Wikimedia projects... Then addressing it should be built into literally
every feature development process, including Flow. It should be tested
against female user groups, scrutinized on whether it helps address the
gender gap or not, and revamped to do so if its found it doesn't.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but every feature that *doesn't* address
the gender gap is a missed opportunity - Flow in particular. Not
exacerbating the problem isn't enough. WMF has limited resources, and is
unlikely to make massively iterative attempts at rolling out such a major
feature. Since it's clear that communication and interaction are at the
core of the gap, any new tool in this area must make at least some
progress.
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Re: [Gendergap] Follow-on from the model FP image discussion

[Nathan]

On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 12:50 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org
wrote:


 That said, I think the image has little chance of being featured on
 Wikipedia anyway due to it being over-processed, but you're welcome to
 nominate it.

 Ryan Kaldari


He isn't welcome to, actually. He's been indefinitely blocked for a year.
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Re: [Gendergap] Sex Ratios in Wikidata Part III

[Nathan]

On Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 3:17 PM, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk
wrote:

 Hi all,

 I ran a few quick updates on Max's numbers today. As of 9/6/14:

 * WIkidata has ~2080k items marked as people
 * Of these, ~1893k have a gender property (91%)

 (Magnus's games are doing an amazing job at filling out these numbers,
 by the way - http://magnusmanske.de/wordpress/?p=213 )

 Very quick and dirty statistics follow - note that since we have 9%
 undefined, the stats may change a bit as time goes on :-)

 * The gender breakdown across all these people is approximately 1603k
 male, 290k female - 84.7% male and 15.3% female.

 * enwiki is 15.5% female; arwiki 14.2%; dewiki 14.9% female; frwiki
 15.2%; eswiki 15.9%; jawiki 18.2%; hiwiki 18.7%; zhwiki 20.1%

 * It's interesting to note that these numbers mostly seem a point or
 two better than the numbers Max got a month ago, which probably
 represents better data-logging rather than change in the underlying
 content

 * There are still very few items with a gender property other than
 male or female - perhaps 100-200 overall - but I suspect this
 number will significantly increase as we deal with the remaining
 items.

 Andrew.


Can you define item in this context?

Do we have any comparable data points by which to evaluate our progress?
Perhaps a similar breakdown of other reference works, or if there is some
sort of summary data available about biographies written (using LOC data?),
etc.
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Re: [Gendergap] Hotties are always hot

[Nathan]

On Sat, Nov 16, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:




 Just for the record:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GlassCobra/Essays/Hotties_are_always_notableis
  now the link. I've removed the shortcut because shortcuts are only
 supposed to be used in Wikipedia space, and this sure as heck doesn't
 belong in Wikipedia space!

 Risker/Anne


WP:HOTTIE continues to function (it's a redirect). It looks like you just
removed the notice of the shortcut from the essay.
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Re: [Gendergap] Hotties are always hot

[Nathan]

Meh, it's a relic of a different era on Wikipedia. Almost all of the people
who have edited are, like GlassCobra, admins or former admins. Its also in
his userspace, not the Wikipedia: namespace.
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Re: [Gendergap] Sue Gardner Reddit AMA right now

[Nathan]

I think it's funny that most of the questions and answers are coming from
long-term Wikimedians, instead of non-Wikimedian redditors. Maybe there's
just so much overlap it's inevitable!
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Re: [Gendergap] Renewing gender gap conversations on meta

[Nathan]

This might be a dumb question, but are there any ongoing GenderGap
related efforts right now outside of content projects (i.e. other than
on a Wikipedia etc.)? Is there a thematic organization focused on it,
or any significant research or outreach grants or programs? It seems
like an obvious candidate for an affiliate group, but I don't recall
reading about one.

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Re: [Gendergap] Renewing gender gap conversations on meta

[Nathan]

It just seems like there is a lot of sort of low-hanging fruit
opportunity that the WMF could take advantage of if its serious about
really addressing the issue. Why not hire an activist of sorts to be
either a WMF employee or a grant funded contractor, who can develop
initiatives, speak at conferences and to media outlets, etc.? Generate
attention by participating in general tech communities and
tech/education conferences open to gender panels and speakers, solicit
reporting from news outlets and blogs, literally even place advertised
invitations to edit in venues with high visibility to women.

That's the thing, imho, that's been missing from this list and from
the WMF since the gender gap was identified as a serious (data
supported) problem: big picture activism and effort. One thing we've
realized as a community is that a lot of the small-bore outreach
efforts don't work well, so why not devote more resources to
large-bore recruitment? I'm not saying nothing has been done - indeed,
Sarah and Sue and others have put a ton of effort out, but it appears
to me that the WMF could be a lot more dedicated to it than it has
been.

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Re: [Gendergap] Renewing gender gap conversations on meta

[Nathan]

On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 4:11 PM, Sydney sydney.po...@gmail.com wrote:
 Yes, with the narrowing focus last year the community will need to take the
 lead. But from the meeting earlier this year it is clear that there
 definitely is talented people on staff at WMF who are more than willing to
 assist as their time permits.


That's unfortunate. I understood the narrowing focus to mean not
placing WMF offices and contractors around the world, or doing sort of
boots on the ground face to face outreach. Since usability initiatives
and some other programs are still ongoing, it seems like the gender
gap should've stayed on the table for direct involvement even if not
through the vehicle of the fellowship program. Too bad.

That said, there are chapters who receive hundreds of thousands of
dollars in funding from the FDC despite having objectively achieved
very little to date; certainly that means there is an opportunity
there for people with an interest in dedicating themselves full time
to this work to be compensated fairly through a funded WMF affiliate.

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Re: [Gendergap] Changing the Chelsea Manning article (and how women were shouted down)

[Nathan]

Odd thing about the current Google search results for Bradley Manning.
It gives the title Bradley Manning with a link to the Chelsea
Manning page, which when followed is a redirect to Bradley Manning. SS
attached.
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Re: [Gendergap] Sexuality-related userboxen: give me your thoughts!

[Nathan]

I wouldn't mind not seeing any of those userboxes on the projects,
but... userbox wars have wasted countless hours over the years. I was
tangentially involved in debates about the pedophilia/ephebophilia
boxes, the User supports Hamas (etc.) boxes and a few other debates,
and found that only the most universally reviled boxes or boxes no one
actively uses can be deleted without triggering a major storm of
drama.

So while it's worth asking people what they think about the userboxes,
they should also consider how much time and effort they think it is
worth to try to get rid of them (if that is their preference). Since
there is no higher authority to declare them forbidden, you'd have to
slag it out over each and every one (or at a minimum, propose slates
of them for deletion and then bear the slings of those demanding they
be split out into separate debates).

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Re: [Gendergap] Do inconsistent GA standards discourage people from participating in GA?

[Nathan]

On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 4:36 AM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote:

 This is a topic that has come up at

 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_biaspe=1#Possible_systemic_bias_at_Good_Article_Reviews

 Do people have similar experiences?

 --


Have you typically found that badgering people like that draws them into
contributing to the topics that interest you? The editor obviously
misunderstood the specific types of systemic bias the project is meant to
counter, and tried to disengage several times, but instead of allowing him
or her to gracefully do that you escalated each time. I don't see why, or
why you would think it necessary to bring further attention to your
behavior by posting it on this list.

~Nathan
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Re: [Gendergap] what follows from most editors do not gender-identify

[Nathan]

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 11:29 AM, Adam Wight s...@ludd.net wrote:

 Maybe I can point to another factoid which demonstrates a generative,
 systematic bias: only 20% of notable person biographies on WP are about
 women [1].


What should the ratio be?

~Nathan
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Re: [Gendergap] Holly Graf

[Nathan]

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 4:38 PM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote:



 On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 11:29 PM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote:

 Seems like another 1E candidate. The over-emphasis on the controversy at
 the end of her career can be addressed by wiping out most of the detail, or
 by removing the article entirely (since the notability argument is somewhat
 fragile, and all the references about the subject relate to her dismissal).


 Coincidentally, others thought that too! :) It was taken to AfD and the
 MilHist project determined she was notable based on her being the first
 woman to command the ship type. :)  If you want to try that Nathan, you can
 but your efforts and the efforts of other men like Andreas are probably
 better spent improving the article about her to remove this material.  I
 eagerly anticipate y'all working together  on this  article as you've both
 identified it needs work. :)

 --
 twitter: purplepopple
 blog: ozziesport.com


I've already edited it, but thanks as always for your confidence.

~Nathan
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Re: [Gendergap] Holly Graf

[Nathan]

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.comwrote:

 Is that an edit of the article, or a whitewashing of the article?

 It turns out that she is most notable for the relief of command, and
 the blanket removal of material from the article is not adhering to
 WP:UNDUE, but seems more to be a whitewashing of the article.

 What you have done is removed any context of the dismissal from the
 article, and that is not a good thing.

 Russavia



How so? The premise of the AfD outcome (and the general argument in favor
of the subject's notability) is that she is notable for more than just her
dismissal. So, focusing virtually the entire article on her dismissal is
giving it UNDUE weight. I reduced the unnecessary detail and left in the
pertinent elements - she was dismissed, it was because certain allegations
were upheld by her commanding officers, and all of the anonymous sniping
can still be found in the linked references.

~Nathan
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Re: [Gendergap] Holly Graf

[Nathan]

On Mon, Jun 18, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Carol Moore DC carolmoor...@verizon.netwrote:


 If the material is WP:Undue it can be reduced.

 If there is evidence that this was a case of males freaking at female
 orders, and there's WP:RS evidence of that, include it.  If she was in fact
 abusive, we should not be trying to cover that up.

 Meanwhile an NPOV question mark tag on the article would be appropriate.

 CM



There's no evidence of males freaking at female orders, but then there
wouldn't be, because the review board and her superiors are primarily male
(as were the majority of her colleagues and subordinates). So that might be
part of it, but there's no real way to establish that or include it in the
article. Given the sources and context, it did seem that the dismissal was
getting undue weight, so I reduced the coverage and I think the article is
in OK shape.

~Nathan
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Nathan]

I'm not convinced that sexual images is a gender gap issue. But my
non-expert opinion is that there is, or ought to be, a degree of feminist
interest in the problems of model releases and age verification. I've
always thought it strange that Andreas, and privatemusings before him,
focused primarily on the very low probability that someone might
accidentally stumble onto sexual images... to the near exclusion of the far
more important problem, to me, of hosting potentially thousands of images
where the subject is unknown, unaware of the publication of the image and
did not (and would not have) given permission for such publication. For
most images on Commons of a sexual nature there is no model release and no
age verification, but despite the Board resolution and the lip-service paid
to personality rights on Commons, there have been only minimal efforts to
rectify this problem.
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Nathan]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com
 wrote:


 That's pretty important then, right? Because IIRC circuit court decisions
 inform judgement in later such cases - and the only way the legal
 interpretation can be rejudged is in a full appeals court?

 Tom


That can be true, but there are 13 circuits and a decision in one has force
only within its own jurisdiction. In any case, it's clear that Wikimedia is
not held to these rules, but that's rather beside the point. We should
*want* this information, whether we are required to have it or not.

Nathan
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Where is the pornography?

[Nathan]

This may be an interesting tangent, but it doesn't really bear on the
responsibility of Wikimedia or its projects. While others may have both
legal and moral obligations, Wikimedia certainly has moral obligations with
or without potential legal liability. The legal arguments are just a
smokescreen.

~Nathan
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Nathan]

What I'd like to see, and what I don't think has been done before, is a
survey of editors as they are editing. By that I mean, when someone saves
an edit, a box asks them What was the purpose of your edit? What made you
decide to make this edit? If it was to correct an error, how were you
alerted to the error? Do you have specific expertise in the topic of this
article? Are you male, female or decline to respond? etc. etc. It could be
done alone, or in conjunction with a broader opt-in survey, but I think it
would capture some really interesting and useful results.
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Re: [Gendergap] gendergap research

[Nathan]

On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 9:35 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:



 I'm not disagreeing with you, Andreas. I'm saying that I'd really prefer
 not to find that just about every thread on the gendergap list wasn't
 discussing pornography in some way.  If you think the culture that
 pornography creates on the project is harmful and is directly related to
 the low participation of women on the project, then why do you feel it's a
 good thing to perpetuate it on this list by constantly discussing it? I
 suggest to you that distilling the gendergap issue down to pro-porn
 culture  when participants in the WikiWomen camp don't even rate this
 issue in its top 10, and the majority of women participating in discussion
 over the last few days are saying that it might be an issue but it's not
 the big issue, is pretty much a classic example of shouting over the voices
 of women who disagree with your focus.  Please think about that for a bit.

 Risker/Anne

 



I agree with the desire to talk about something else for awhile, but for
what it's worth... It's been my observation that it's common, even
extremely common, for Wikimedia mailing lists (and mailing lists in
general) to fixate on a single or small number of topics for awhile before
moving on to something else. Let's not treat this as though weeks or months
of discussion had been sidetracked to pornography; it's been a few threads
for a few days, and these threads have drawn far more posts than the
typical topics on this list. It's also in the nature of e-mail that anyone
disinterested in the controversial nexus of Wikimedia and sexuality could
ignore these posts and reply to their hearts content on other topics.

Nathan
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Re: [Gendergap] Outcomes for WikiWomenCamp

[Nathan]

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote:


 *Wikimedia specific outcomes:*
 * A mailing list will be created for support in English and Spanish where
 women can ask for help with harassment they are dealing with on Wikipedia
 and offered solutions.  A private mailing list where several people can be
 on call was selected because the problems would not be made public and
 aggravate problems.



It's worth noting that this has existed before, and became extremely
controversial before it was shut down. Sarah (SlimVirgin) could probably
fill you in on the details. It might be a good idea to investigate the
pitfalls of that attempt to avoid running into similar issues.

~Nathan
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Re: [Gendergap] Larry Sanger's blog post: Should there be a Wikipedia boycott over the lack of an image filter?

[Nathan]

On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 2:46 PM, George Herbert george.herb...@gmail.comwrote:




 That is, in my opinion, an actionable user behavior problem, even
 without the gender related issues.  Those clearly make it worse, of
 course.

 I will go look it up later, but it's probably too stale to do anything
 about it now.  8-(


I agree it's actionable, and I don't see why it should be stale. People get
nabbed for past conduct, especially patterns of conduct, all the time.
Maybe can't be hit with a block for that one instance (preventative not
punishment, etc. etc., since the Wikipedia culture has quixotically
abandoned the notion of the deterrent), but there are other remedies.
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Re: [Gendergap] Article for deletion Fanny Imlay

[Nathan]

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 3:32 PM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote:


 Been there.  Done that.  It isn't only women's topics. Because Justin
 Bieber is unpopular and actively disliked by some people,  (Though I guess
 you could argue this example relates to a topic of interest to many young
 girls) there was an attempt to merge
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Bieber_on_Twitter in
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Bieber , with
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Justin_Bieber#Merger_proposal making it
 clear the reason is I don't like this.  The article had about 100 sources
 around the time the article was nominated for merge.  Lady Gaga, the most
 followed person on Twitter and woo hoo female to boot! has had other people
 ask why the article isn't deleted.  See
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lady_Gaga_on_Twitter#Request_for_deletion:_Is_this_page_really_relevant.3F.
  I have another topic I wrote on where the regional women's stuff should
 be generic to all women playing the sport or to the region. If neither
 article currently exist, [[WP:SOFIXIT]] by creating the new and relevant
 articles.

 Information is power and what is on Wikipedia has the potential to shape
 greater understanding around issues.  Thus, a battle for what should and
 should not be there.


Wow, YMMV, but I think it's really odd to have whole long articles devoted
to a Twitter account. What is and isn't broken out from main topic
articles is often controversial, whether criticism sections or detailed
information on specifically consequential periods, but an article on a
Twitter account is an outlier in my reading experience.

One of the arguments on the talk page for Fanny Imlay was that the sources
cited included information about her only incidentally in the course of
covering other people, as opposed to being primarily about her (presumably
with the exception of the biography). I don't know enough about the subject
or the sources to know if this is the case, but it's an argument that might
apply to Justin Bieber on Twitter. The articles discussing his Twitter
usage are really about Justin Bieber and his behavior, not his Twitter
account. See for example[1], a short mention in Ashton Kutcher's bio about
his Twitter use. Kutcher is also among the most prominent users of that
service in its history, but there is no article devoted to it. Rather than
seeing the merge proposal as an example of I don't like it, I think the
fact that it failed demonstrates the power of a gigantic fanbase to distort
normal practice on a wiki.


~Nathan

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashton_Kutcher#Twitter_presence
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Re: [Gendergap] The Dell Summit

[Nathan]

On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 4:40 AM, Laura Hale la...@fanhistory.com wrote:



 On Sun, May 13, 2012 at 6:30 PM, Sydney Poore sydney.po...@gmail.comwrote:

 I think it is relevant to our understanding of how the gender gap
 developed on WMF wikis.


 That was hard to pick up from the e-mail. :(  I too was baffled as to how
 this connected.  I still don't see how this connects to the gender gap.
 What are we supposed to do with it?  What can learn from it?  Is it a call
 for chapters to boycott Dell? (If so, nothing was posted to the chapters
 list, though maybe something posted to Internal.)  Was she asking for women
 to write about it for Wikinews?  (Wikinews loves women's contents and I
 know they like women contributors and wish they had more of them.) Sexism
 happens all the time at tech conferences and online. There is something
 wrong on the Internet! has practically become an internet meme in its own
 right. Context free, it is confusing... because it makes this list seem
 like a general feminist list to air grievance.  I can get that any time I
 want in many other places. : /

 So Sarah, you've got women and men who want to do something in response to
 Dell's latest behavior.  How do you want us to assist and what are going to
 offer to assist us in that?


It's relevant because Wikipedia's gender gap doesn't exist in a vacuum, and
neither its causes nor its solutions will be unique to Wikipedia. The Dell
debacle is a really perfect example of the ignorance and lack of
sensitivity to this issue that pervades the tech sector, both of which are
quite strong factors in the gender gap on our own projects.
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Re: [Gendergap] Research into causes of the gender gap?

[Nathan]

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 1:31 PM, Johannes Rohr
johannes.r...@wikimedia.de wrote:
 Dear all,

 I recently joined this list as I am one of the persons in charge of
 the community-oriented goals which Wikimedia Deutschland has set for
 itself for the coming year, one of which is to increase female
 participation in Wikimedia activities  projects by 50% until the end
 of 2012, I am well aware that this is a very ambitious target, and I
 feel that in order to maximise the chances of meeting it, we will have
 to be as clear as we can about what are the main deterrents,
 preventing Wikimedia from developing the same way as the rest of the
 Internet in terms of narrowing the Gender gap. What is it that makes
 Wikipedia so different, that the seemingly natural disappearance of
 the gender gap which we have seen in the Blogosphere and in social
 media, seems to completely pass by the Wikiverse?

 I have seen a number of quantitative studies, which unambiguously
 confirm the existence of the gender gap as such, but I have seen very
 little on what causes it to be so persistent in the Wikiverse. There
 is a number of commonly proposed explanations such as the discussion
 culture and the poor usability. However I have at least not come
 across any studies which have tested their veracity. If anything of
 that kind exists, I would be extremely happy for a pointer. I would
 also be extremely curious whether any attempts have been undertaken to
 weight the importance of each individual cause. Is there any
 particular factors which can be clearly identified as the one or two
 main showstoppers, which should thus be treated as the top priorities
 or is there a whole array of causes which have more or less equal
 weight?

 Looking forward to any feedback,

 Johannes

 --
 Johannes Rohr

 Wikimedia Deutschland e.V.
 Eisenacher Straße 2
 10777 Berlin

It'd be interesting to see if the factors were consistent across
language projects. I don't speak German, but I have heard on many
occasions that the normal tenor and manner of discussions on de.wp is
quite different than on en.wp. If that's true, it may mean that such
environmental issues are less crucial than is often thought.

Nathan

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Re: [Gendergap] Kelly Wearstler, again...

[Nathan]

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Rob gamali...@gmail.com wrote:
 Thanks for bringing this to our (well, mine, anyway) attention.  It
 was troubling when it first showed up on BLPN in May and it's still
 troubling that so many (all male, looks like) editors are missing the
 point of BLP and UNDUE and are so dismissive of the career
 accomplishments of the subject of the article, despite ample evidence
 of them in that article.  We obsessively document career details of
 every minor voice actor and porn star, but dismiss career
 documentation from gold standard sources like The New Yorker and The
 New York Times when it comes to interior design.  (This isn't a
 strictly gender issue, I've had the same argument with editors over
 literary theorists and fields like that outside of the tech/media
 orbit.)  I doubt this would happen with the article of, say, a
 wrestler, where a bunch of male editors would insist that the sports
 career is utterly meaningless in the face of something like a brief
 cameo appearance in a Lars von Trier film.



Well, let's be fair - there are men on both sides, and as most
Wikipedia editors are male I don't think any conclusions can be drawn
from the gender of the editors :-P

But I agree. It seems strange that an administrator and would-be
arbitrator would argue that a 17 year old photo shoot should dictate
the layout and content of an article, when the person has had many
other notable and high profile accomplishments and coverage. But I've
never really been able to get a good bead on Kww's thinking, so oh
well.

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Re: [Gendergap] Written like a personal reflection or essay vs. Encyclopedic style?

[Nathan]

I'd say, if anything, it's mostly the Early life section. The
Wikipedia 'house style', if you can call it that, is a fairly dry
just-the-facts-ma'am method of relating events. Mrs. Kealy, however,
seemed to think that by bringing her over, they were getting an unpaid
servant is an example of a sentence most long-term Wikipedia editors
would be uncomfortable with, as its more storytelling than relating
encyclopedic information. There's a few more bits, but ultimately its
a pretty minor problem. Over time other editors will probably remove
most of the biographical color and your article will blend in fine.

Nathan

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Re: [Gendergap] Please remove my comments including this one

[Nathan]

Unfortunately the list is public (there is a link to public archives
on the subscription page), and posts to it are collected by several
services that are unrelated to Wikimedia. Since the posts are stored
by private third parties, there is no good method for removing them.
You can try inquiring with the various services directly, if you can
determine who they are and how to contact them.

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Re: [Gendergap] the state of civility on en.wiki

[Nathan]

The particular incident that prompted this thread has spawned a
request for an arbitration case, which apparently is likely to be
accepted.

I think this would be a really good opportunity for the committee to
make a difference with respect to enabling people with a long history
of rude interactions. If nothing else, discussions on this list have
demonstrated that the often hostile editing atmosphere is a huge, huge
deterrent for many editors and especially for women. Right now, only
the most extreme behavior from non-vested users is sanctioned because
of the many precedents exempting productive users from strict
scrutiny.

It may be helpful for people who post here to post to the case request
page, and express to the arbitration committee that the value of the
editors being driven away far exceeds the value of the editors
repeatedly given a pass. The selective enforcement of interaction
standards, and the apparent influence of relationships on
decision-making, set an example that hobbles any other efforts at
improving the atmosphere of the project.

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Re: [Gendergap] Am I crazy?

[Nathan]

Not convinced by the AfD. Snow kept after less than 24 hours, based
on one substantial vote and a bunch of what he said votes that
didn't address whether college dating is so distinct a phenomena
that it needs to be treated separately from [[dating]]. A search
string of +college +dating is obviously going to return a lot of
results, that doesn't prove notability - and notability isn't the only
concern.

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Re: [Gendergap] anonymous (street meat)

[Nathan]

I looked at the discussion
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Anonymous_(Street_Meat))
and didn't see personal remarks or innuendo. Can you point me to them?

On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 11:43 AM, Migdia Chinea migdia.chi...@gmail.com wrote:
 tp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anonymous_(Street_Meat)

 This deletion was filled with personal remarks and innouendo.  It was
 discouraging of the posting bny any women.  I'm angry and frustrated to have
 been singled out.  Is that treatment to be expected?  Thank you --

 Migdia Chinea

 --
 Migdia  Cicero  Ulla  Tullia-Zoe  Clodia  Aurelius  Cato the Younger



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Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 9, Issue 5

[Nathan]

On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Maggie rockerre...@gmail.com wrote:

snip

 Second, she referred to women as girls. Which, as far as I know with any
 woman, is incredibly insulting and a way of one-upping someone. I'll assume
 you are a man because your name is Rupert. I'm sure you know if another man
 called you a boy it would be emasculating. It is the same for women. It's
 also something women have battled with for years--people still call grown
 women girls, no matter how much we fight it.

snip

 Many of the people who spend the most
 time there are those who have little to do with their time. Those who are
 busy putting flat-out porn on the site are not of the reasonable sort.
snip
 --Maggie


I've always heard that one of the things that drives many people, not
just women, away from Wikipedia is the sometimes aggressive and angry
tone of discussion. I've heard a lot of people complain, even on this
list, that people make assumptions about them based on their gender,
or based on short comments misunderstood, etc. When the level of
discourse really starts to degenerate (like to accusations of lying,
or remarks like get a fucking life), it's an opportunity to take a
step back and get some good perspective on what the problem is and
where it comes from.  Whatever causes it on-wiki, we obviously haven't
escaped it here.

Nathan

P.S.: I often hear both men and women describe others as boys or
girls without meaning anything diminutive or emasculating, etc.
Maybe it's a regional thing; inferring an insult from it, especially
from someone from another continent raised with a different language,
is probably reading too much into it. (On the other hand, people on
this list have a habit of using males to refer to men and women to
refer to women. Flip side of the same coin, perhaps?).

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Re: [Gendergap] Women on Wikimedia group

[Nathan]

A resurrection of the previous most controversial discussion topic on
this list. Personally I don't have a problem with it if women want a
women-only place to discuss gender gap issues (although there are some
immediate challenges: (1) this is the Internet, and (2) some might
argue that male/female is an incomplete gender spectrum). On the other
hand... In order to effect change and be more than an echo chamber,
you might need the other 91% of us.

~Nathan

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Re: [Gendergap] OFFLIST Re: Incentive programs and wikicups: Effectiveness?

[Nathan]

nb: despite the subject, this was sent to the list.

On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hey Laura, I've been meaning to ask you this -- have you talked to Siska
 Doviana in Indonesia? She's run a couple university contests, and reported
 on them. I'm not sure if there's been formal research, but she is full of
 information. I could introduce you if you haven't met her.
 -Pete
 On Sep 23, 2011, at 2:30 AM, Laura Hale wrote:

 Has anyone done any research or know of any research that has looked into
 the effectiveness of incentive programs like British Museum
 at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:GLAM/BM/Featured_Article_prize ?
  Or into the effectiveness of wikicups like Bacon
 at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Bacon/Bacon_WikiCup/2012
 ?  Do they spur collaboration?  Do they engage new audiences that may not
 otherwise have worked on content or similar content?
 --
 twitter: purplepopple
 blog: ozziesport.com

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 503-383-9454 mobile

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Re: [Gendergap] So this is how Commons works?

[Nathan]

On Sun, Sep 11, 2011 at 8:55 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.comwrote:

 In response to Sydney's post..

 Having worked in the photography industry (and been forced in front of a
 camera a few times in my day..) as a consultant and a make-up artist (10
 years in that industry) I've written, signed, had others sign, and dealt
 with model release forms a million times over. Here is a nice standard break
 down of that from the NYIP:

 http://www.nyip.com/ezine/techtips/model-release.html

 If we require permission for use via OTRS, I don't know why we can't have
 model release be incorporated sexual/nude photography, modeling
 photography, studio photography. Materials used for educational purposes, as
 Commons is supposed to be, this shouldn't be too hard. I haven't thought too
 hard about it yet, but, it is possible.


I've been advocating for this for several years (check the archives of
Foundation-l), but there's never been very much support - and none at all on
Commons. Even the Board resolution only requires an affirmation from the
uploader that the subject gave consent.

Nathan
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