Re: [Gendergap] can the Commons images thread move?

[phoebe ayers]

Thanks. That helps a lot, really, and I will skim the emails now. I really
didn't know what the topic of this extensive discussion *was* before, and
didn't have the stomach for another protracted censorship discussion.

thanks again,
-- phoebe


On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 9:24 AM, Katherine Casey <
fluffernutter.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Phoebe, I would really suggest reading the emails if you're interested in
> the discussion (or, conversely, not asking for a summary if you're not),
> but here's a quick-and-dirty condensation off the top of my head:
>
> I started the thread to discuss how disposition of topless photo of a
> woman on Commons (being used on enwp), and that woman's right to consent or
> not consent to the photo being used, was being discussed entirely by men.
> The conversation then veered to how sexual images on Commons are a
> nearly-intractable problem and how Commons can be unwelcoming to people who
> try to discuss them, then to discussion of the Board's resolution that we
> must be sensitive to people's identity rights when photos are from private
> places, then to how Commons does or doesn't adhere to that resolution, then
> to how to *make *Commons adhere (better) to that resolution. There is no
> final result; there is only a general feeling that Commons's common
> practice is in dispute with how some people interpret the Board's
> resolution, that other people feel Commons is already making huge
> concessions to the ideas in the resolution, and that some individual images
> and categories of images are rather blatant violations of Commons's and/or
> the Board's policies/resolutions.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> -Fluff
>
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 11:51 AM, phoebe ayers wrote:
>
>> Well, I haven't read ANY of the emails in the thread, for the petty
>> reason that the subject line makes me cringe every time I see it. And
>> according to my gmail count there's something like 100 mails on the topic,
>> so I'm probably not going to start now. So if indeed there is actual
>> progress being made, if someone could post a 1-para summary of the
>> discussion and what the conclusions are, that would be awesome!
>>
>> (seriously. Refactoring is almost always a helpful exercise when it comes
>> to long discussions on complicated issues -- for both the participants &
>> those who haven't been following the discussion).
>>
>> -- phoebe
>>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] can the Commons images thread move?

[Katherine Casey]

Phoebe, I would really suggest reading the emails if you're interested in
the discussion (or, conversely, not asking for a summary if you're not),
but here's a quick-and-dirty condensation off the top of my head:

I started the thread to discuss how disposition of topless photo of a woman
on Commons (being used on enwp), and that woman's right to consent or not
consent to the photo being used, was being discussed entirely by men. The
conversation then veered to how sexual images on Commons are a
nearly-intractable problem and how Commons can be unwelcoming to people who
try to discuss them, then to discussion of the Board's resolution that we
must be sensitive to people's identity rights when photos are from private
places, then to how Commons does or doesn't adhere to that resolution, then
to how to *make *Commons adhere (better) to that resolution. There is no
final result; there is only a general feeling that Commons's common
practice is in dispute with how some people interpret the Board's
resolution, that other people feel Commons is already making huge
concessions to the ideas in the resolution, and that some individual images
and categories of images are rather blatant violations of Commons's and/or
the Board's policies/resolutions.

Hope this helps.

-Fluff


On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 11:51 AM, phoebe ayers wrote:

> Well, I haven't read ANY of the emails in the thread, for the petty reason
> that the subject line makes me cringe every time I see it. And according to
> my gmail count there's something like 100 mails on the topic, so I'm
> probably not going to start now. So if indeed there is actual progress
> being made, if someone could post a 1-para summary of the discussion and
> what the conclusions are, that would be awesome!
>
> (seriously. Refactoring is almost always a helpful exercise when it comes
> to long discussions on complicated issues -- for both the participants &
> those who haven't been following the discussion).
>
> -- phoebe
>
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Re: [Gendergap] can the Commons images thread move?

[phoebe ayers]

Well, I haven't read ANY of the emails in the thread, for the petty reason
that the subject line makes me cringe every time I see it. And according to
my gmail count there's something like 100 mails on the topic, so I'm
probably not going to start now. So if indeed there is actual progress
being made, if someone could post a 1-para summary of the discussion and
what the conclusions are, that would be awesome!

(seriously. Refactoring is almost always a helpful exercise when it comes
to long discussions on complicated issues -- for both the participants &
those who haven't been following the discussion).

-- phoebe


On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 6:24 AM, Katherine Casey <
fluffernutter.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not sure I see the pressing reason why this thread needs to go
> on-wiki. Commons doesn't have a venue for discussing problems this
> fundamental with it as far as I know, and people have spoken in this thread
> who either do not or will not participate on-wiki on Commons. Moving the
> thread on-wiki would mean scattering it to some random page, losing the
> voices of the people who aren't on Commons for whatever reasons, and
> subjecting everyone else to the defensiveness that's the reason this thread
> grew traction here instead of the dozens of times it's been brought up on
> various wikis.
>
> This mailing list was never intended to be a "ooh happy!"-only venue where
> we only post announcements about courses and case studies - one-liners
> about positive steps are good, but so are tough discussions like this one,
>  and given that this is one of the very, very few "safe" venues for that
> type of discussion, I'm saddened to see people trying to shove this off the
> list.
>
> -Fluff
>
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:
>
>> I agree with Sarah: the thread should stay, tagged with [Commons] as Erik
>> has suggested.
>>
>> We are actually making progress – painful progress at times, but
>> significant progress nevertheless.
>>
>> Andreas
>>
>> On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 7:46 AM, Sarah  wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 11:21 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote:
>>>
 Sumana,

 Yes, gladly. I feel that thread has served a good purpose, but it's
 true, it's been at the expense of flooding the list with a lot of noise,
 and I've contributed some of it. I do think that after a prolonged long dip
 into less productive discussion, in the last exchange we have arrived at a
 point where there is some consensus about what the problems are and how to
 attack them, and hopefully we can leverage that into some policy reform
 that moves the project forward. But you're right, it would be better at
 this point to move that activity onto a wiki.

>>>
>>> Hi Sumana and Pete, I would object to closing any thread down. If people
>>> don't want to read the thread, that's fine, but if others are discussing
>>> it, please allow that.
>>>
>>> The presence of this kind of material on Commons is directly related to
>>> the whole issue of sexism on Wikipedia and the lack of women editors, and
>>> that makes it a very valid topic for the gender-gap list. I can't imagine a
>>> more valid topic than women being represented sexually without their
>>> consent on Wikimedia projects. If discussing it on this list brings people
>>> together and edges us closer to a solution that would surely be a really
>>> good outcome for the list.
>>>
>>> Sarah
>>>
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>>>
>>
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Re: [Gendergap] can the Commons images thread move?

[Katherine Casey]

I'm not sure I see the pressing reason why this thread needs to go on-wiki.
Commons doesn't have a venue for discussing problems this fundamental with
it as far as I know, and people have spoken in this thread who either do
not or will not participate on-wiki on Commons. Moving the thread on-wiki
would mean scattering it to some random page, losing the voices of the
people who aren't on Commons for whatever reasons, and subjecting everyone
else to the defensiveness that's the reason this thread grew traction here
instead of the dozens of times it's been brought up on various wikis.

This mailing list was never intended to be a "ooh happy!"-only venue where
we only post announcements about courses and case studies - one-liners
about positive steps are good, but so are tough discussions like this one,
 and given that this is one of the very, very few "safe" venues for that
type of discussion, I'm saddened to see people trying to shove this off the
list.

-Fluff


On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 7:47 AM, Andreas Kolbe  wrote:

> I agree with Sarah: the thread should stay, tagged with [Commons] as Erik
> has suggested.
>
> We are actually making progress – painful progress at times, but
> significant progress nevertheless.
>
> Andreas
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 7:46 AM, Sarah  wrote:
>
>> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 11:21 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote:
>>
>>> Sumana,
>>>
>>> Yes, gladly. I feel that thread has served a good purpose, but it's
>>> true, it's been at the expense of flooding the list with a lot of noise,
>>> and I've contributed some of it. I do think that after a prolonged long dip
>>> into less productive discussion, in the last exchange we have arrived at a
>>> point where there is some consensus about what the problems are and how to
>>> attack them, and hopefully we can leverage that into some policy reform
>>> that moves the project forward. But you're right, it would be better at
>>> this point to move that activity onto a wiki.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Sumana and Pete, I would object to closing any thread down. If people
>> don't want to read the thread, that's fine, but if others are discussing
>> it, please allow that.
>>
>> The presence of this kind of material on Commons is directly related to
>> the whole issue of sexism on Wikipedia and the lack of women editors, and
>> that makes it a very valid topic for the gender-gap list. I can't imagine a
>> more valid topic than women being represented sexually without their
>> consent on Wikimedia projects. If discussing it on this list brings people
>> together and edges us closer to a solution that would surely be a really
>> good outcome for the list.
>>
>> Sarah
>>
>> ___
>> Gendergap mailing list
>> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Gendergap] can the Commons images thread move?

[Andreas Kolbe]

I agree with Sarah: the thread should stay, tagged with [Commons] as Erik
has suggested.

We are actually making progress – painful progress at times, but
significant progress nevertheless.

Andreas

On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 7:46 AM, Sarah  wrote:

> On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 11:21 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote:
>
>> Sumana,
>>
>> Yes, gladly. I feel that thread has served a good purpose, but it's true,
>> it's been at the expense of flooding the list with a lot of noise, and I've
>> contributed some of it. I do think that after a prolonged long dip into
>> less productive discussion, in the last exchange we have arrived at a point
>> where there is some consensus about what the problems are and how to attack
>> them, and hopefully we can leverage that into some policy reform that moves
>> the project forward. But you're right, it would be better at this point to
>> move that activity onto a wiki.
>>
>
> Hi Sumana and Pete, I would object to closing any thread down. If people
> don't want to read the thread, that's fine, but if others are discussing
> it, please allow that.
>
> The presence of this kind of material on Commons is directly related to
> the whole issue of sexism on Wikipedia and the lack of women editors, and
> that makes it a very valid topic for the gender-gap list. I can't imagine a
> more valid topic than women being represented sexually without their
> consent on Wikimedia projects. If discussing it on this list brings people
> together and edges us closer to a solution that would surely be a really
> good outcome for the list.
>
> Sarah
>
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>
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Re: [Gendergap] can the Commons images thread move?

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

Sarah, 14/05/2013 08:46:

Hi Sumana and Pete, I would object to closing any thread down. If people
don't want to read the thread, that's fine, but if others are discussing
it, please allow that.


You can as well continue with private email.
A posting rate limit has also proved successful on foundation-l to avoid 
similar cases of signal:noise ratio drops.
If you really want to use this list, the list admins could add a mailman 
"topic" to the list, then you'd be able to use a safeword in your emails 
on the topic to state they're on that topic and I could filter them in 
my list preferences, allowing me to look at the sub-directory currently 
hosting this list in my mail client with less repugnance.



[...] I can't
imagine a more valid topic than women being represented sexually without
their consent on Wikimedia projects. [...]


For the records, I can.
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2013-May/003705.html

Nemo

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Re: [Gendergap] can the Commons images thread move?

[Sarah]

On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 11:21 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote:

> Sumana,
>
> Yes, gladly. I feel that thread has served a good purpose, but it's true,
> it's been at the expense of flooding the list with a lot of noise, and I've
> contributed some of it. I do think that after a prolonged long dip into
> less productive discussion, in the last exchange we have arrived at a point
> where there is some consensus about what the problems are and how to attack
> them, and hopefully we can leverage that into some policy reform that moves
> the project forward. But you're right, it would be better at this point to
> move that activity onto a wiki.
>

Hi Sumana and Pete, I would object to closing any thread down. If people
don't want to read the thread, that's fine, but if others are discussing
it, please allow that.

The presence of this kind of material on Commons is directly related to the
whole issue of sexism on Wikipedia and the lack of women editors, and that
makes it a very valid topic for the gender-gap list. I can't imagine a more
valid topic than women being represented sexually without their consent on
Wikimedia projects. If discussing it on this list brings people together
and edges us closer to a solution that would surely be a really good
outcome for the list.

Sarah
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Re: [Gendergap] can the Commons images thread move?

[Pete Forsyth]

Sumana,

Yes, gladly. I feel that thread has served a good purpose, but it's true,
it's been at the expense of flooding the list with a lot of noise, and I've
contributed some of it. I do think that after a prolonged long dip into
less productive discussion, in the last exchange we have arrived at a point
where there is some consensus about what the problems are and how to attack
them, and hopefully we can leverage that into some policy reform that moves
the project forward. But you're right, it would be better at this point to
move that activity onto a wiki. (Probably worthwhile to point out one
avenue for that, a Commons discussion mentioned a couple times in the email
thread, in which a number of people are trying to hash out a workable
approach to swiftly dealing with extreme cases where illegal content gets
uploaded, and how volunteers and paid staff can work together most
effectively:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Making_it_easier_for_problematic_files_to_be_brought_to_our_attention)

Thank you for mentioning my class (starting in under 24 hours!) as the kind
of thing you'd like to be hearing about on this list. I really appreciate
that! It honestly hadn't occurred to me to announce it here; but since you
have, it occurs to me that our most productive and active students in the
first round were overwhelmingly female; also my co-instructor is a woman.
So I suppose we are actually taking a little stab at the gender gap in that
class. If anybody knows people looking to take a six week class to learn a
bit about Wikipedia editing, please do point them our way!

-Pete
[[User:Peteforsyth]]


On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 7:26 PM, Carol Moore DC wrote:

> I second your proposal.
>
>
> On 5/13/2013 9:36 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:
>
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/**pipermail/gendergap/2013-May/**thread.html
>> shows me that "Topless image retention -don't give up" has stretched on
>> pretty long, and it seems to me like it might be better suited to onwiki
>> discussion instead.  Maybe the posters who are very interested in
>> engaging in that conversation could hash this out on Commons or Meta and
>> send this list an update when you have a solid proposal or conclusion?
>>
>> A few things I'd love to see more of on the gendergap list: sharing
>> useful or inspiring blog posts and best practice documentation,
>> promoting the School of Open's Wikipedia-editing course
>> https://blog.wikimedia.org/**2013/05/10/school-of-open-**
>> offers-free-wikipedia-course/
>> and similar courses to women, and learning from case studies of
>> Wikimedia projects (or other free culture/free software communities)
>> that have improved gender equity.
>>
>> -Sumana
>>
>> __
>>
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Re: [Gendergap] can the Commons images thread move?

[Carol Moore DC]

I second your proposal.

On 5/13/2013 9:36 PM, Sumana Harihareswara wrote:

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/2013-May/thread.html
shows me that "Topless image retention -don't give up" has stretched on
pretty long, and it seems to me like it might be better suited to onwiki
discussion instead.  Maybe the posters who are very interested in
engaging in that conversation could hash this out on Commons or Meta and
send this list an update when you have a solid proposal or conclusion?

A few things I'd love to see more of on the gendergap list: sharing
useful or inspiring blog posts and best practice documentation,
promoting the School of Open's Wikipedia-editing course
https://blog.wikimedia.org/2013/05/10/school-of-open-offers-free-wikipedia-course/
and similar courses to women, and learning from case studies of
Wikimedia projects (or other free culture/free software communities)
that have improved gender equity.

-Sumana

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