Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Monday 19 June 2006 22:15, Jim Hurley wrote:
> This proposal seeks to create a project within the Apache Software
> Foundation to continue the development and advancement of Jini
> technology. 

Splendid news, IMHO... 

+1


Cheers
Niclas

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Brian McCallister]

On Jun 19, 2006, at 7:15 AM, Jim Hurley wrote:


This proposal seeks to create a project within the Apache Software
Foundation to continue the development and advancement of Jini
technology. It has broad backing from the Jini Community, and
includes core developers from Sun Microsystems (original developer
of the technology) as well as Community technical leaders.


This is very cool. Who controls the Jini spec, out of curiosity?

-Brian



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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Jim Hurley]

On Jun 20, 2006, at 1:01 PM, Brian McCallister wrote:

On Jun 19, 2006, at 7:15 AM, Jim Hurley wrote:


This proposal seeks to create a project within the Apache Software
Foundation to continue the development and advancement of Jini
technology. It has broad backing from the Jini Community, and
includes core developers from Sun Microsystems (original developer
of the technology) as well as Community technical leaders.


This is very cool. Who controls the Jini spec, out of curiosity?

-Brian


Thanks Brian.

Currently the specs are controlled by our community process, "The
Jini Community Decision Process (JDP)". Details can be found at
.

Right now we're leaning towards moving the specs into the Apache
project (if accepted), and having them controlled by the
PMC/committers of the project. This would replace the JDP's role
in controlling changes to the specs. The whole of the Jini Community
would still have a strong influence in what happens with the specs
(through the Apache project aliases, etc), and for those in the
Community wanting to get involved in a more substantive way, they
have the opportunity to become a committer/be on the PMC.

It's still somewhat of an open issue and is being discussed
right now in the Jini Community.

-Jim


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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Phil Steitz]

+1 (as in "will help").

From the text below and the comments in

,
I assume that the scope of the project will just be the core
infrastructure.  But you also mention "related utilities and tools."
Can you clarify a little more how the scope is defined?

Phil

On 6/19/06, Jim Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

This proposal seeks to create a project within the Apache Software
Foundation to continue the development and advancement of Jini
technology. It has broad backing from the Jini Community, and
includes core developers from Sun Microsystems (original developer
of the technology) as well as Community technical leaders.

Thank you for your consideration.


---
JiniProposal

*Proposal for new project Jini*

19 June 2006
---

(0) rationale

Jini technology is a service oriented architecture that defines a programming
model which both exploits and extends Java technology to enable the construction
of secure, distributed systems consisting of federations of services and
clients. Jini technology can be used to build adaptive network systems that are
scalable, evolvable and flexible as typically required in dynamic computing
environments.

Quoting from The Jini Specifications 
book:
  "Jini technology is a simple infrastructure for providing services in a
   network, and for creating spontaneous interactions between programs that
   use these services. Services can join or leave the network in a robust
   fashion, and clients can rely upon the availability of visible services,
   or at least upon clear failure conditions. When you interact with a service,
   you do so through a Java object provided by that service. This object is
   downloaded into your program so that you can talk to the service even if
   you have never seen its kind before - the downloaded object knows how to
   do the talking. That's the whole system in a nutshell."

Sun Microsystems originally introduced the technology in January, 1999 by
providing a Jini Technology Starter Kit . This
includes a contributed implementation of all of the specifications, as well as
helpful utilities and tools. The source code was made available through the Sun
Community Source License (SCSL) as an attempt to make the code widely available
and accessible to both individuals and companies. Sun has continued to innovate
throughout the years, releasing many versions of the starter kit. The license
associated with the starter kit was changed

in March, 2005 to the Apache License, Version 2.0.

Since its beginning, there was desire and effort to form a developer community
around the technology. This has helped to create an interesting, active, and
passionate community - the Jini Community. This global Community has engaged on
technology projects, discussions and debates, events, and a decision making
process. It has contributed to, and helped influence the direction of the
starter kit. Some of the collaborative technology projects have led to key
contributions being used by other technology projects as well as commercial
products. One example is the Service UI API 
,
which is a way to attach user interfaces to Jini services.

Despite the obvious successes of the technology and Community, some changes are
in store as outlined in a recent note to the Community: "A New Day"
.
The most critical part of the new plan is to find the right place for the future
development and advancement of the core Jini technology. We wanted an
environment that was synergistic with our exisiting Community culture -- so one
that is active, with open communication and collaboration, and a reputation for
producing high quality software. We think we've found that place with the Apache
Software Foundation.

(0.1) criteria

/Meritocracy:/

The Jini project will be meritocractic. The project will follow the guidelines
 of the Apache
Software Foundation. In order to achieve this, we plan on proactively recruiting
individuals in the Community to get involved in the project: specifying work
that needs to be done, encouraging bug fixes, enhancements, and advancements,
and engaging in discussion on how the code works and is structured. In the end,
we are committed to creating an environment to foster a meritocracy.

/Community:/

There has been a diverse and active Community built around Jini technology since
it was first introduced in January, 1999. The Jini Community consists of a
global set of individuals, companies, non-profit organizations, and
universitie

Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Leo Simons]

On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 10:15:38AM -0400, Jim Hurley wrote:
> This proposal seeks to create a project within the Apache Software
> Foundation to continue the development and advancement of Jini 
> technology.

Cool. All or some of it?

> *Proposal for new project Jini*

Looks good.

What I'm missing is an idea of the interaction between jini.org and this
proposed new apache project, and an idea of the interaction between the JCP
process and the apache project. Eg is the apache project a (reference?)
implementation of a bunch of JCP specs managed through jini.org (in which case
I'd say it needs a new name), is it a 'full' move from jini.org to
jini.apache.org, or something else?

> /Homogenous developers:/
> 
> Since the Jini Technology Starter Kit has been mainly developed to date by Sun
> Microsystems, the vast majority of initial committers to the project are from
> Sun. Over the years, Sun has received bug fixes and enhancements from other
> developers which have been incorporated into the code. Our plan is to work 
> with
> these other developers and add them as committers as we progress. There are
> three other initial committers (non Sun): Bill Venners, Dan Creswell, and Mark
> Brouwer.

Let the records show that Geir is listed as initial committer too yet probably
doesn't work at sun, unless he switched companies again :)

> * Mentor 
> - Geir Magnusson Jr.

Lately popular opinion seems to be that it'd be good if there were at least
three mentors. Any others?

LSD

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Geir Magnusson Jr]

Leo Simons wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 10:15:38AM -0400, Jim Hurley wrote:

> 
> Let the records show that Geir is listed as initial committer too yet probably
> doesn't work at sun, unless he switched companies again :)

Hey, it's been 6 months already, but no, I'm still at Intel. :)

> 
>> * Mentor 
>> - Geir Magnusson Jr.
> 
> Lately popular opinion seems to be that it'd be good if there were at least
> three mentors. Any others?

The snippet you quoted is bait :)

We figured that we'd have people volunteering once this was proposed and
 people saw that there was only me.

So please, volunteers for mentor wanted and very welcome!  At least 3 more!

geir


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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Jukka Zitting]

Hi,

On 6/21/06, Geir Magnusson Jr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

We figured that we'd have people volunteering once this was proposed and
 people saw that there was only me.

So please, volunteers for mentor wanted and very welcome!  At least 3 more!


I wouldn't consider myself fit to be a mentor, having just entered ASF
through an incubating project, but I'd certainly be interested in
participating in some way. I had a short love affair with Jini in 2000
(worked on decentralized trust management) and have been keeping an
eye on the technology ever since.

BR,

Jukka Zitting

--
Yukatan - http://yukatan.fi/ - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Software craftsmanship, JCR consulting, and Java development

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Jim Hurley]

On Jun 21, 2006, at 1:56 AM, Phil Steitz wrote:

+1 (as in "will help").
From the text below and the comments in
,

I assume that the scope of the project will just be the core
infrastructure.  But you also mention "related utilities and tools."
Can you clarify a little more how the scope is defined?

Phil


Thanks Phil.  :-)

The "related utilities and tools" abstract the core infrastructure
to make it easier for developers to build Jini clients and services.
The ones we are specifically referring to are currently provided in
the "Jini Technology Starter Kit", which contains contributed  
implementations

of Jini technology infrastructure services, as well as supporting
helper classes, and other services including JavaSpaces technology.

An example of a helper utility is "JoinManager", which is a utility  
class
that performs all of the functions related to discovery, joining,  
service

lease renewal, and attribute management that the Jini programming model
requires of a well-behaved service. See:



Therefore, we are trying to define the scope of the project as
Jini technology core infrastructure software, including the
implementation of Jini specs, related utilities and tools.

HTH.

-Jim

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Niclas Hedhman]

On Wednesday 21 June 2006 19:19, Leo Simons wrote:

> What I'm missing is an idea of the interaction between jini.org and this
> proposed new apache project, and an idea of the interaction between the JCP
> process and the apache project. Eg is the apache project a (reference?)
> implementation of a bunch of JCP specs managed through jini.org (in which
> case I'd say it needs a new name), is it a 'full' move from jini.org to
> jini.apache.org, or something else?

It has been discussed that jini.org will serve as a "information portal", with 
links to docs, specs, implementations, the starter kit, and so forth.
The Apache project will first be the center of coding of the starter kit, and 
other useful generic tools.

It has not yet been decided what exactly should happen to the specifications 
and related process (JDP). Many people like the JDP, but also recognizes the 
overhead needed to keep it running. One alternative that has been discussed 
is to let the Jini TLP manage the JDP (with a couple of amendments) as well.

My personal stance is that it is an issue that is not urgent, and can be 
discussed through incubation.


> > * Mentor
> > - Geir Magnusson Jr.
>
> Lately popular opinion seems to be that it'd be good if there were at least
> three mentors. Any others?

Previously, both Alex Karasulu and Gianugo Rabellino have expressed 
willingness to mentor this. I know Alex is on vacation, and have very limited 
online access at the moment...


Cheers
Niclas

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Phil Steitz]

On 6/21/06, Geir Magnusson Jr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Leo Simons wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 10:15:38AM -0400, Jim Hurley wrote:

>
> Let the records show that Geir is listed as initial committer too yet probably
> doesn't work at sun, unless he switched companies again :)

Hey, it's been 6 months already, but no, I'm still at Intel. :)

>
>> * Mentor
>> - Geir Magnusson Jr.
>
> Lately popular opinion seems to be that it'd be good if there were at least
> three mentors. Any others?

The snippet you quoted is bait :)

We figured that we'd have people volunteering once this was proposed and
 people saw that there was only me.

So please, volunteers for mentor wanted and very welcome!  At least 3 more!


I will volunteer to be a mentor for this.

Phil

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Dan Creswell]

Niclas Hedhman wrote:

On Wednesday 21 June 2006 19:19, Leo Simons wrote:


What I'm missing is an idea of the interaction between jini.org and this
proposed new apache project, and an idea of the interaction between the JCP
process and the apache project. Eg is the apache project a (reference?)
implementation of a bunch of JCP specs managed through jini.org (in which
case I'd say it needs a new name), is it a 'full' move from jini.org to
jini.apache.org, or something else?


It has been discussed that jini.org will serve as a "information portal", with 
links to docs, specs, implementations, the starter kit, and so forth.
The Apache project will first be the center of coding of the starter kit, and 
other useful generic tools.




Additionally, user projects currently on jini.org are, in many cases, 
going to move over to dev.java.net.


In respect of the starter kit there's some discussion about just which 
audience it should be targetted at (new user, experienced user etc) and 
whether there might be more than one "deliverable" from the project 
(it's even possible the "starter kit" is housed on jini.org given the 
intentions re: new users whilst the core tools, frameworks etc might be 
on apache).


Best,

Dan.

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Gianugo Rabellino]

On Jun 21, 2006, at 1:19 PM, Leo Simons wrote:


* Mentor
- Geir Magnusson Jr.


Lately popular opinion seems to be that it'd be good if there were  
at least

three mentors. Any others?


Here, here! I' d be glad to be a mentor for this project, I've been  
following Jini closely and would love to see it coming to Apache,  
helping out where I can.


Ciao,

--
Gianugo Rabellino

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Mark Brouwer]

Niclas Hedhman wrote:

On Wednesday 21 June 2006 19:19, Leo Simons wrote:


What I'm missing is an idea of the interaction between jini.org and this
proposed new apache project, and an idea of the interaction between the JCP
process and the apache project. Eg is the apache project a (reference?)
implementation of a bunch of JCP specs managed through jini.org (in which
case I'd say it needs a new name), is it a 'full' move from jini.org to
jini.apache.org, or something else?


It has been discussed that jini.org will serve as a "information portal", with 
links to docs, specs, implementations, the starter kit, and so forth.
The Apache project will first be the center of coding of the starter kit, and 
other useful generic tools.


It has not yet been decided what exactly should happen to the specifications 
and related process (JDP). Many people like the JDP, but also recognizes the 
overhead needed to keep it running. One alternative that has been discussed 
is to let the Jini TLP manage the JDP (with a couple of amendments) as well.


I think it is good to mention there is a distinction between
specifications and standards in the Jini community. Most of the Jini
related specifications were developed by Sun in a way that allowed input
of others, but Sun was the sole entity that made the decision about
what went into these specifications. The Jini community has a democratic
process (JDP) that provides balance between commercial and individual
stakeholders and to which people could submit their specification to
have that blessed as a community approved standard (all got accepted so
far, so Sun did apparently well).

The initial goals of Jini can only be reached if compatibility is high
on the agenda of everybody involved and standards were a way to achieve
that, in the past there was even a license that commanded compatibility
but that one has been replaced by the Alv2. Also at the start of the
Jini community in 1999 it was thought of that a democratic process such
as the JDP was the best way to ensure that all stakeholders could have
their say in whether some specification would be approved as standard
and that it would unity us instead of divide.

Bringing the Jini specs (the community approved standards) into an ASF
project without a JDP like process can IMHO be seen as monopolizing
what is perceived as Jini. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing
is up to the reader ;-)

My personal stance is that it is an issue that is not urgent, and can be 
discussed through incubation.


I disagree here, some people in the Jini community find it important to
know in advance which way this is heading, e.g. to hedge their risks
using or investing in this technology and determine their own future path.
--
Mark


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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Phil Steitz]

On 6/22/06, Mark Brouwer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> On Wednesday 21 June 2006 19:19, Leo Simons wrote:
>
>> What I'm missing is an idea of the interaction between jini.org and this
>> proposed new apache project, and an idea of the interaction between the JCP
>> process and the apache project. Eg is the apache project a (reference?)
>> implementation of a bunch of JCP specs managed through jini.org (in which
>> case I'd say it needs a new name), is it a 'full' move from jini.org to
>> jini.apache.org, or something else?
>
> It has been discussed that jini.org will serve as a "information portal", with
> links to docs, specs, implementations, the starter kit, and so forth.
> The Apache project will first be the center of coding of the starter kit, and
> other useful generic tools.
>
> It has not yet been decided what exactly should happen to the specifications
> and related process (JDP). Many people like the JDP, but also recognizes the
> overhead needed to keep it running. One alternative that has been discussed
> is to let the Jini TLP manage the JDP (with a couple of amendments) as well.

I think it is good to mention there is a distinction between
specifications and standards in the Jini community. Most of the Jini
related specifications were developed by Sun in a way that allowed input
of others, but Sun was the sole entity that made the decision about
what went into these specifications. The Jini community has a democratic
process (JDP) that provides balance between commercial and individual
stakeholders and to which people could submit their specification to
have that blessed as a community approved standard (all got accepted so
far, so Sun did apparently well).

The initial goals of Jini can only be reached if compatibility is high
on the agenda of everybody involved and standards were a way to achieve
that, in the past there was even a license that commanded compatibility
but that one has been replaced by the Alv2. Also at the start of the
Jini community in 1999 it was thought of that a democratic process such
as the JDP was the best way to ensure that all stakeholders could have
their say in whether some specification would be approved as standard
and that it would unity us instead of divide.

Bringing the Jini specs (the community approved standards) into an ASF
project without a JDP like process can IMHO be seen as monopolizing
what is perceived as Jini. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing
is up to the reader ;-)

> My personal stance is that it is an issue that is not urgent, and can be
> discussed through incubation.

I disagree here, some people in the Jini community find it important to
know in advance which way this is heading, e.g. to hedge their risks
using or investing in this technology and determine their own future path.


I think Niclas' point is that this can be discussed and decided during
incubation, along with lots of other things about how the project and
community are going to work, as opposed to having to be determined in
advance.  Since it seems to be an important issue in the community,
though, we should probably discuss it early on.  One thing to keep in
mind is that assuming successful incubation, the Jini community will
have broad latitude in terms of decision-making processes.  Part of
the incubation process is setting these things up.

Phil

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Leo Simons]

Hey all,

On Thu, Jun 22, 2006 at 11:29:46AM +0200, Mark Brouwer wrote:
> Niclas Hedhman wrote:
> >On Wednesday 21 June 2006 19:19, Leo Simons wrote:
> >
> >>What I'm missing is an idea of the interaction between jini.org and this
> >>proposed new apache project, and an idea of the interaction between the 
> >>JCP
> >>process and the apache project. Eg is the apache project a (reference?)
> >>implementation of a bunch of JCP specs managed through jini.org (in which
> >>case I'd say it needs a new name), is it a 'full' move from jini.org to
> >>jini.apache.org, or something else?
> >
> >It has been discussed that jini.org will serve as a "information portal", 
> >with links to docs, specs, implementations, the starter kit, and so forth.
> >The Apache project will first be the center of coding of the starter kit, 
> >and other useful generic tools.

Ok. Sorta makes sense.

> >It has not yet been decided what exactly should happen to the 
> >specifications and related process (JDP). Many people like the JDP, but 
> >also recognizes the overhead needed to keep it running. One alternative 
> >that has been discussed is to let the Jini TLP manage the JDP (with a 
> >couple of amendments) as well.

I read up on this JDP thing a little and I would suggest for starters that
you keep all that in place as-is-now and re-evaluate later. It seems like a big
thing to change, and perhaps after the new apache project is more 'established'
and 'known to be what it is' and 'trusted' as successful the discussion will
be easier (or simply moot since no-one wants any change :) ).

I guess this means keeping jini.org around for a long time to come, and I think
this means you need a name for "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" which is not "jini" :)

> Bringing the Jini specs (the community approved standards) into an ASF
> project without a JDP like process can IMHO be seen as monopolizing
> what is perceived as Jini. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing
> is up to the reader ;-)

Apache has a meritocratic process which is in many ways quite different from
democratic (I imagine that with jini in 1999, 'democratic' meant less 'control'
for sun than 'meritocratic') . I wouldn't want to switch from one to the other
lightly!

> >My personal stance is that it is an issue that is not urgent, and can be 
> >discussed through incubation.
> 
> I disagree here, some people in the Jini community find it important to
> know in advance which way this is heading, e.g. to hedge their risks
> using or investing in this technology and determine their own future path.

FWIW, "moving things to apache" in general has not meant an increase in risk
for whatever it is that is moving. I would not worry too much :)

LSD

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Bob Scheifler]

Leo Simons wrote:
> I guess this means keeping jini.org around for a long time to come, and I 
> think
> this means you need a name for "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" which is not "jini" :)

Could you expand on why you think that?  Thanks.

- Bob

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Davanum Srinivas]

Bit more info here:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-general&m=115091704611860&w=2

-- dims

On 6/22/06, Bob Scheifler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Leo Simons wrote:
> I guess this means keeping jini.org around for a long time to come, and I 
think
> this means you need a name for "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" which is not "jini" :)

Could you expand on why you think that?  Thanks.

- Bob

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--
Davanum Srinivas : http://people.apache.org/~dims/

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Bob Scheifler]

Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Bit more info here:
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-general&m=115091704611860&w=2

Thanks, but I'm not sure I understand what "confusion" is worried about.
The expected new jini.org is an information/community site, not a
software development site.  We also now have a "Jini" community on
java.net.  Is the suggestion that the ASF project can't have "Jini"
anywhere in its name, or that it can't be just the single word "Jini"?

- Bob

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Davanum Srinivas]

I should also point you to the follow up :)
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-general&m=115092546912444&w=2

Name change is something to keep in mind as you progress through
incubation...There's no hurry.

-- dims

On 6/22/06, Bob Scheifler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Bit more info here:
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-general&m=115091704611860&w=2

Thanks, but I'm not sure I understand what "confusion" is worried about.
The expected new jini.org is an information/community site, not a
software development site.  We also now have a "Jini" community on
java.net.  Is the suggestion that the ASF project can't have "Jini"
anywhere in its name, or that it can't be just the single word "Jini"?

- Bob

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--
Davanum Srinivas : http://people.apache.org/~dims/

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Bob Scheifler]

> I should also point you to the follow up :)
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=incubator-general&m=115092546912444&w=2

FWIW, that just emphasizes to me that the circumstances are different.

- Bob

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Mark Brouwer]

Bob Scheifler wrote:

Leo Simons wrote:

I guess this means keeping jini.org around for a long time to come, and I think
this means you need a name for "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" which is not "jini" :)


Could you expand on why you think that?  Thanks.


Maybe it is also good to emphasis that Jini is a technology and not an
end-product. Sun provides an end-product called the JTSK (Jini
Technology Starter Kit) that is an aggregation of what is described in
the Jini Architecture
(http://java.sun.com/products/jini/2.0.2/doc/specs/html/jini-spec.html)
and that implements many of the community approved standards.

I've no idea yet about the deliverables we end up with, but I assume
these will be released under a different product name. So I think one
should see the name Jini on par with e.g. the XML TLP that aggregates
many XML related technologies.
--
Mark

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Yoav Shapira]

Hola,


Thanks, but I'm not sure I understand what "confusion" is worried about.
The expected new jini.org is an information/community site, not a
software development site.


I'm not sure there's a significant difference (or that there should be one).
The community is developing the software, no?  (And in general here,
we think the community is more important than the code, FWIW).  So
Dims' points about confusion by users and potential developers as to
where the project "lives" are worth considering, IMHO.

Yoav

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Leo Simons]

On Thu, Jun 22, 2006 at 03:43:13PM -0400, Bob Scheifler wrote:
> Leo Simons wrote:
> > I guess this means keeping jini.org around for a long time to come, and I 
> > think
> > this means you need a name for "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" which is not "jini" :)
> 
> Could you expand on why you think that?  Thanks.

IANAL and not an expert but I can try.

More concretely, "jini" is a name/brand/trademark which seens to
be governed by eg

  http://www.sunsource.net/TUPPCP.html
  http://www.sun.com/suntrademarks/

And is owned by sun for which there are rather strict guidelines:

  http://www.sun.com/policies/trademarks/

Similarly, terms like "apache", "jakarta", "tomcat" are also marks
(even if not registered) which are somehow "owned" by the ASF (and
we have a PRC committee to protect them).

When "SpamAssassin" entered incubation the trademark (which was
registered) ownership was transferred to the ASF, so the name was
kept for the new project.

If the "jini" name is not "owned" by the ASF (not just legally, also
morally), we shouldn't name our software directly after it, for a
variety of reasons, like

  * its less confusing for users
  * it avoids potential legal worries
  * it avoids a whole lot of discussion, hurt feelings, etc.
  * if a project ever outgrows its original boundaries a bit
(happens quite often, for example lucene had a C port while
it was still at jakarta) its not a problem

This is why there is no java.apache.org but instead there is
jakarta.apache.org, there is no j2se.apache.org but there is harmony,
there is no j2ee.apache.org but there is geronimo, etc.

There was, in fact, at some point, a java.apache.org, and IIUC the ASF
got a lot of flak about that from sun legal (and rightly so).

While its quite possible to change names halfway through incubation,
in general IMHO its just easier to "bite the bullet" up front because
various resources (jira projects, svn repositories, mailing lists, etc)
are coupled to the name.

To answer another question, yes, I believe this also means that there
should be no "jini" in the name. There's a variety of creative ways
most open source projects deal with that, like putting lots of extra
letters in and around a word, naming by association (so you end up
with "Apache Aladdin" since that's about genies too), or naming through
acronyms (so you end up with "Apache JiKit" for "JIni Kit").

I hope the above is clear. I'm really no expert. If there's need for
further details, I would suggest talking to a trademark/branding lawyer
or two. But usually its just a lot easier to pick a new name, so that's
what we tend to do :)

LSD

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Geir Magnusson Jr]

It's my impression that the trademark would be donated to the ASF to
avoid this problem.  I'm not sure though.

geir


Leo Simons wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 22, 2006 at 03:43:13PM -0400, Bob Scheifler wrote:
>> Leo Simons wrote:
>>> I guess this means keeping jini.org around for a long time to come, and I 
>>> think
>>> this means you need a name for "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" which is not "jini" :)
>> Could you expand on why you think that?  Thanks.
> 
> IANAL and not an expert but I can try.
> 
> More concretely, "jini" is a name/brand/trademark which seens to
> be governed by eg
> 
>   http://www.sunsource.net/TUPPCP.html
>   http://www.sun.com/suntrademarks/
> 
> And is owned by sun for which there are rather strict guidelines:
> 
>   http://www.sun.com/policies/trademarks/
> 
> Similarly, terms like "apache", "jakarta", "tomcat" are also marks
> (even if not registered) which are somehow "owned" by the ASF (and
> we have a PRC committee to protect them).
> 
> When "SpamAssassin" entered incubation the trademark (which was
> registered) ownership was transferred to the ASF, so the name was
> kept for the new project.
> 
> If the "jini" name is not "owned" by the ASF (not just legally, also
> morally), we shouldn't name our software directly after it, for a
> variety of reasons, like
> 
>   * its less confusing for users
>   * it avoids potential legal worries
>   * it avoids a whole lot of discussion, hurt feelings, etc.
>   * if a project ever outgrows its original boundaries a bit
> (happens quite often, for example lucene had a C port while
> it was still at jakarta) its not a problem
> 
> This is why there is no java.apache.org but instead there is
> jakarta.apache.org, there is no j2se.apache.org but there is harmony,
> there is no j2ee.apache.org but there is geronimo, etc.
> 
> There was, in fact, at some point, a java.apache.org, and IIUC the ASF
> got a lot of flak about that from sun legal (and rightly so).
> 
> While its quite possible to change names halfway through incubation,
> in general IMHO its just easier to "bite the bullet" up front because
> various resources (jira projects, svn repositories, mailing lists, etc)
> are coupled to the name.
> 
> To answer another question, yes, I believe this also means that there
> should be no "jini" in the name. There's a variety of creative ways
> most open source projects deal with that, like putting lots of extra
> letters in and around a word, naming by association (so you end up
> with "Apache Aladdin" since that's about genies too), or naming through
> acronyms (so you end up with "Apache JiKit" for "JIni Kit").
> 
> I hope the above is clear. I'm really no expert. If there's need for
> further details, I would suggest talking to a trademark/branding lawyer
> or two. But usually its just a lot easier to pick a new name, so that's
> what we tend to do :)
> 
> LSD
> 
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> 
> 
> 

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Bob Scheifler]

> The community is developing the software, no?

The software that's being proposed as the initial source for
the ASF project has not been under open source development to date.
Almost all of it is code that has been developed and controlled
by one group at Sun.  There's been active and ongoing community
input and feedback, but not community-based development.  A critial
part of incubation will be evolving to open source development.

Jini.org today hosts many different projects, all developed by
different sets of people under various development practices.
Many of those projects are now moving to java.net, some to other
sites.  All of those projects are and will continue to be, to my
mind, part of the Jini community.  So I see the proposed ASF project
as being (a key) part of the larger Jini community (vs the Jini
community "moving" to ASF).

Having written that, I guess I've just explained to myself why
the ASF project should not be merely "Jini", and should either
have a different name or an additional qualifier.  (As for
trademark issues, I'll defer to Jim Hurley to chime in.)

- Bob

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Re: [Proposal] Jini Project

[Jim Hurley]

On Jun 23, 2006, at 4:46 PM, Bob Scheifler wrote:


Having written that, I guess I've just explained to myself why
the ASF project should not be merely "Jini", and should either
have a different name or an additional qualifier.  (As for
trademark issues, I'll defer to Jim Hurley to chime in.)


I agree with Bob's reasoning, and a different or qualified
name might be a better choice after reflection.

As Geir had mentioned... Sun's original intent (with the
proposed "Jini" name of the project) was to donate the TM
to the ASF. I'm not sure how that would work now (TM use -wise)
with other Jini -related work and sites (for example, the
jini.dev.java.net Community project area (for work around the
Apache Jini project core), and the new informational Jini.org
project site being worked).

-Jim

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