RE: Personal attacks and respect
Leo Simons wrote: > Is the issue now resolved as far as the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list > is concerned We can hope. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
Stephen McConnell wrote: Stephen McConnell wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: unnecessary and unwarranted disruption of an incubator project Let it go. >> >> I would like to retract my comments above. good! This sounds like progress. Is the issue now resolved as far as the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list is concerned (reading lots of e-mails, I still can't understand what happened, is happening)? If not, what is still expected from us? - LSD - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
Stephen McConnell wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: unnecessary and unwarranted disruption of an incubator project Let it go. No one other than you is characterizing it that way. Just let it go. I let it go for three months and now I'm seeing the consequences on not speaking up earlier. If people here think it is appropriate I can move the discussion to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - but frankly, I think it is more appropriate that this issue is dealt with here. Either way, the question of "mentor" responsibility and accountability will be raised. I would like to retract my comments above. Basically I'm digging a hole for myself and dragging Nicola in with me. Nicola - I want to apologize to you for that. You and I still need to talk because knowingly or not your causing me grief and making life difficult for an entire project. As for the above - I'm not interested in raising discussion on [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I'm not even keen on the discussion here. All I really want to do is to get you to recognize that your public call for the death of a particular Apache project has caused damage and unnecessary time from a number of different people who care about the project in question. On the other-hand I can't stand here are say that you don't have the right to say what you think. To everyone else - at the end of the day I know I'm simply using the question of mentor as leverage. Bottom line - that makes me not a very good Apache citizen and that's creating a situation in which I feel very uncomfortable. Maybe Ken's right and all I need is a good smack around the head. Even so - I want to say sorry to everyone here - in particular - Noel - you don't need this more than anyone. Steve. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
Noel J. Bergman wrote: unnecessary and unwarranted disruption of an incubator project Let it go. No one other than you is characterizing it that way. Just let it go. I let it go for three months and now I'm seeing the consequences on not speaking up earlier. If people here think it is appropriate I can move the discussion to [EMAIL PROTECTED] - but frankly, I think it is more appropriate that this issue is dealt with here. Either way, the question of "mentor" responsibility and accountability will be raised. Stephen. -- |---| | Magic by Merlin | | Production by Avalon | | | | http://avalon.apache.org | |---| - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Personal attacks and respect
> unnecessary and unwarranted disruption of an incubator project Let it go. No one other than you is characterizing it that way. Just let it go. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
Brian Behlendorf wrote: On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: Steven Noels wrote: Please, not here. I'm quite confident that a good portion of the inhabitants of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win" this flamefest. At least I am not, and I can imagine that neither general@ nor [EMAIL PROTECTED] are to be bothered with thread fallout debris like this. It ain't fun nor educating to watch. well, sometimes you have to deal with unpleasant things. that's life. I think most of us are still perplexed as to why Stephen chose this list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) to "rumble" with Nicola. Could someone clarify this? Does it have to do with a project currently in the incubator? I'm not on any sublists of the incubator... I chose this list for two reasons: 1. unnecessary and unwarranted disruption of an incubator project was occurring - something I did not want to see continue in light of the fact the the issues had nothing to do with the project in question 2. that underlying this disruption - incubator policies related to the nomination of named mentors is IMO potential the root issue here I think that the first issue can be resolved (possible through arbitration or directly by the initiating party). Even so, the second issue remains and is a subject that could be reviewed within this forum and potential resolved for the benefit of subsequent incubator projects. For now I aiming to resolve the first item, following which I (or possibly someone else with interested in improving policy here at Apache) can provide a more complete summation. My apologies to everyone for what I hope will be a temporary disruption and earnestly hope that a rapid resolution can be achieved. Stephen. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Rodent of Unusual Size wrote: Steven Noels wrote: Please, not here. I'm quite confident that a good portion of the inhabitants of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win" this flamefest. At least I am not, and I can imagine that neither general@ nor [EMAIL PROTECTED] are to be bothered with thread fallout debris like this. It ain't fun nor educating to watch. well, sometimes you have to deal with unpleasant things. that's life. I think most of us are still perplexed as to why Stephen chose this list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) to "rumble" with Nicola. Could someone clarify this? Does it have to do with a project currently in the incubator? I'm not on any sublists of the incubator... Brian - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Steven Noels wrote: > > Please, not here. I'm quite confident that a good portion of the > inhabitants of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win" > this flamefest. At least I am not, and I can imagine that neither > general@ nor [EMAIL PROTECTED] are to be bothered with thread fallout debris > like this. It ain't fun nor educating to watch. well, sometimes you have to deal with unpleasant things. that's life. it seems fairly clear to me that this issue isn't going to go away without some sort of arbitration, if then; there will continue to be eruptions of this sort until it is handled. personally, i think repeated eruptions will have a more deleterious effect than one long one that kills the volcano for good and all. also remember: we're about community, and about openness. we have a community issue here, and i think it is improper to turn our backs on it. the incubator more than any other part of the foundation is where this should be handled, i think; if you can think of a better, please say so. but i don't think the issue is going to go away just by wishing or covering it up and pretending it doesn't exist. i haven't finished reading all the threads, so i'm withholding my opinion until i do. something is going to be done about this. the differences will be reconciled, or one or the other or both parties will 'leave' (work on projects that have no intersection with the other person), or someone (or someones) will get a metaphorical smack upside the head. it will not be allowed to fester indefinitely. and these things happen, so figuring out how to deal with them provides valuable examples and material for the 'keeping a community healthy' aspect of our documentation. - -- #kenP-)} Ken Coar, Sanagendamgagwedweinini http://Ken.Coar.Org/ Author, developer, opinionist http://Apache-Server.Com/ "Millennium hand and shrimp!" -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iQCVAwUBQO6XTJrNPMCpn3XdAQEeHgQAsIlacg36iuRwgw+evAcKNO+lWOn/FQYD 2fyW/HKjD0dUFOkjh04Qnl5ryuOT0qj8B9U4T2IFassVCmfGc/HjDcuJm8MWB3XK zcnPx2Op9mLfFLcP/brUjtSnepc8iR0SbhNsDb3C/KcL1Aun7YXHxSt1GCpnEPPx Gq9iWLg9FEg= =lz1G -END PGP SIGNATURE- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
Steven Noels wrote: ... But that is not what we are talking about ATM... I see two persons bringing bad vibes into the wrong places. That will reflect badly upon both of them. What I was trying to suggest is that those persons try and find a solution amongst themselves. David Blevins wrote: ... > I really don't want to get caught in the cross-fire, but...you could > call each other up and talk/yell this out on the phone and get the > argument over quickly. I don't have anything to say to Stephen, and I really don't know what I have to talk/yell about. If he has problems with me and needs to address them, he can write to me personally, no problem with that. If you read the threads, you will notice that I have not taken part in this whacky one-way flamefest. -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
On 09 Jul 2004, at 03:44, David Blevins wrote: I really don't want to get caught in the cross-fire, but...you could call each other up and talk/yell this out on the phone and get the argument over quickly. +1, but some people just *need* the audience, alas. ;-) (now i'm really gone) -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source Java & XMLAn Orixo Member Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
On Fri, Jul 09, 2004 at 12:09:13AM +0200, Stephen McConnell wrote: > Sander Striker wrote: > > >>From: Stephen McConnell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Sorry but Nicola Ken is not qualified. I'm sorry Nicola but > >>you instigated this and only you can fix it. > > > > > >Stephen, saying that someone is not qualified to do X isn't constructive. > >Furthermore, it doesn't give me warm fuzzies reading a statement like > >that on a list like this one. Or any list for that matter. > > Sander: > > I know where your coming from - but I'm kind of left without an option. > If you want to suggest a mechanisms for resolution I'm listening. > I really don't want to get caught in the cross-fire, but...you could call each other up and talk/yell this out on the phone and get the argument over quickly. -David - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Personal attacks and respect
> > I've suggested to Nicola Ken that he start work on a web page to > > cover ideals, techniques and scenarios [regarding communication > > skills and other useful community building techniques.] > > I figure your suggestion and the assumedly planned work can't have > anything to do with what is happening here. A catalyst, and nothing more. If a page on communication skills for healthy communities (which I don't believe will be a one person task) is done well, a year from now no one will remember or care about what catalyzed it. > I'd rather review what becomes available, and thank > the person who initially got the ball rolling. And contribute, once that ball is rolling, I hope. :-) As for the rest, I understand how you feel, and agree. Have a good vacation. :-) --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
Sander Striker wrote: From: Stephen McConnell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 8:58 PM Noel J. Bergman wrote: I'm quite confident that a good portion of the inhabitants of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win" this flamefest. +1 There is a sense in which a general discussion on community building techniques and communication skills is worthwhile. I've suggested to Nicola Ken that he start work on a web page to cover ideals, techniques and scenarios. -1 Sorry but Nicola Ken is not qualified. I'm sorry Nicola but you instigated this and only you can fix it. Stephen, saying that someone is not qualified to do X isn't constructive. Furthermore, it doesn't give me warm fuzzies reading a statement like that on a list like this one. Or any list for that matter. Sander: I know where your coming from - but I'm kind of left without an option. If you want to suggest a mechanisms for resolution I'm listening. Cheers, Steve. Sander - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Personal attacks and respect
> From: Stephen McConnell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 8:58 PM > Noel J. Bergman wrote: > > >>I'm quite confident that a good portion of the inhabitants of this > >>list doesn't care much about who is going to "win" > >>this flamefest. > > > > > > +1 > > > > There is a sense in which a general discussion on community > building > > techniques and communication skills is worthwhile. I've > suggested to > > Nicola Ken that he start work on a web page to cover ideals, > > techniques and scenarios. > > -1 > > Sorry but Nicola Ken is not qualified. I'm sorry Nicola but > you instigated this and only you can fix it. Stephen, saying that someone is not qualified to do X isn't constructive. Furthermore, it doesn't give me warm fuzzies reading a statement like that on a list like this one. Or any list for that matter. Sander - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
On 08 Jul 2004, at 20:48, Noel J. Bergman wrote: I'm quite confident that a good portion of the inhabitants of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win" this flamefest. +1 There is a sense in which a general discussion on community building techniques and communication skills is worthwhile. I've suggested to Nicola Ken that he start work on a web page to cover ideals, techniques and scenarios. He has agreed that it is something he would like to do, and to which others would contribute. Discussion on that would be appropriate here, in my opinion, so long as it maintains the proper academic and cordial decorum. Another venue could be community@, again with the same caveat. I figure your suggestion and the assumedly planned work can't have anything to do with what is happening here. I hate rules-making for community dynamics as much as anyone, but if it needs to happen (and I'm not sure it does), I'd like it to grow naturally rather than being commissioned. But I'd rather review what becomes available, and thank the person who initially got the ball rolling. But that is not what we are talking about ATM... I see two persons bringing bad vibes into the wrong places. That will reflect badly upon both of them. What I was trying to suggest is that those persons try and find a solution amongst themselves. I feel like the audience for a play I rejected a ticket for. If the audience leaves, I wonder how many of the actors would stay on stage. The funniest things happen when people take themselves too seriously. (I'm a few hours away from going on holidays, so bear my poetic tendencies ATM.) -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source Java & XMLAn Orixo Member Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
Noel J. Bergman wrote: I've suggested to Nicola Ken that he start work on a web page to cover ideals, techniques and scenarios [related to community building and conversation skills] -1 Sorry but Nicola Ken is not qualified. Your opinion is noted, but that is not your call to make. I asked him if he would volunteer to start that content, and he has agreed. No one's writing is sacrosanct. Process documentation is part of the Incubator's "work product", and managed in source control just like code. We have plenty of people with experience and insight to contribute, and it will be easier, in my view, to contribute to something that exists rather than to an empty page. If you wish to contribute constructive suggestions, your contributions will be as treated the same as anyone else's. Thank you for the offer - but no - I won't be contributing to something which blatantly contradicts opinion with action. Cheers, Steve. -- |---| | Magic by Merlin | | Production by Avalon | | | | http://avalon.apache.org | |---| - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Personal attacks and respect
> I've suggested to Nicola Ken that he start work on a web page > to cover ideals, techniques and scenarios [related to community > building and conversation skills] > -1 > Sorry but Nicola Ken is not qualified. Your opinion is noted, but that is not your call to make. I asked him if he would volunteer to start that content, and he has agreed. No one's writing is sacrosanct. Process documentation is part of the Incubator's "work product", and managed in source control just like code. We have plenty of people with experience and insight to contribute, and it will be easier, in my view, to contribute to something that exists rather than to an empty page. If you wish to contribute constructive suggestions, your contributions will be as treated the same as anyone else's. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
This is my last mail regarding Stephen McConnell. His mails are now automatically deleted from my inbox. I do not have time for such "debates" (?)with no visible content. Andreas - Original Message - From: "Stephen McConnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 8:58 PM Subject: Re: Personal attacks and respect > Noel J. Bergman wrote: > > >>I'm quite confident that a good portion of the inhabitants > >>of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win" > >>this flamefest. > > > > > > +1 > > > > There is a sense in which a general discussion on community building > > techniques and communication skills is worthwhile. I've suggested to Nicola > > Ken that he start work on a web page to cover ideals, techniques and > > scenarios. > > -1 > > Sorry but Nicola Ken is not qualified. I'm sorry Nicola but you > instigated this and only you can fix it. > > Stephen. > > -- > > |---| > | Magic by Merlin | > | Production by Avalon | > | | > | http://avalon.apache.org | > |---| > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
Noel J. Bergman wrote: I'm quite confident that a good portion of the inhabitants of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win" this flamefest. +1 There is a sense in which a general discussion on community building techniques and communication skills is worthwhile. I've suggested to Nicola Ken that he start work on a web page to cover ideals, techniques and scenarios. -1 Sorry but Nicola Ken is not qualified. I'm sorry Nicola but you instigated this and only you can fix it. Stephen. -- |---| | Magic by Merlin | | Production by Avalon | | | | http://avalon.apache.org | |---| - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Personal attacks and respect
> I'm quite confident that a good portion of the inhabitants > of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win" > this flamefest. +1 There is a sense in which a general discussion on community building techniques and communication skills is worthwhile. I've suggested to Nicola Ken that he start work on a web page to cover ideals, techniques and scenarios. He has agreed that it is something he would like to do, and to which others would contribute. Discussion on that would be appropriate here, in my opinion, so long as it maintains the proper academic and cordial decorum. Another venue could be community@, again with the same caveat. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
Could you please stop lowering the signal-to-noise ratio of this mailing list? Thanks, Andreas - Original Message - From: "Stephen McConnell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: Re: Personal attacks and respect [...] > I would call that more of an "observation" rather than an "attack". I'm > confident Nicola understands and appreciates that distinction. [...] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Personal attacks and respect
On 08 Jul 2004, at 18:38, Stephen McConnell wrote:
Brian McCallister wrote:
As an innocent bystander of the flamewar that spawned this email:
Nicola commented on some technical changes, it started deteriorating
into shed painting, Nicola posted an email on de-escalating conflict
in technical discussions, then Stephen attacked Nicola directly for
some as-yet-unspecified ("you know why, Nicola") historical reason
that Nicola is not allowed to suggest ways to de-escalate conflict.
Actually - what I said was that
"Nicola is 100% familiar with the reasons why he is
the last person on the planet to assume any authority
on [the subject of deescalation]"
I would call that more of an "observation" rather than an "attack".
I'm confident Nicola understands and appreciates that distinction.
Please, not here. I'm quite confident that a good portion of the
inhabitants of this list doesn't care much about who is going to "win"
this flamefest. At least I am not, and I can imagine that neither
general@ nor [EMAIL PROTECTED] are to be bothered with thread fallout debris
like this. It ain't fun nor educating to watch.
Oh: I'm not taking sides... *shrug*.
--
Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/
Outerthought - Open Source Java & XMLAn Orixo Member
Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org
-
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Brian McCallister wrote:
As an innocent bystander of the flamewar that spawned this email:
Nicola commented on some technical changes, it started deteriorating
into shed painting, Nicola posted an email on de-escalating conflict in
technical discussions, then Stephen attacked Nicola directly for some
as-yet-unspecified ("you know why, Nicola") historical reason that
Nicola is not allowed to suggest ways to de-escalate conflict.
Actually - what I said was that
"Nicola is 100% familiar with the reasons why he is
the last person on the planet to assume any authority
on [the subject of deescalation]"
I would call that more of an "observation" rather than an "attack". I'm
confident Nicola understands and appreciates that distinction.
Cheers, Steve.
-
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
As an innocent bystander of the flamewar that spawned this email:
Nicola commented on some technical changes, it started deteriorating
into shed painting, Nicola posted an email on de-escalating conflict in
technical discussions, then Stephen attacked Nicola directly for some
as-yet-unspecified ("you know why, Nicola") historical reason that
Nicola is not allowed to suggest ways to de-escalate conflict.
From there things went ballistic (the technical discussion wrapped up
quickly and happily) in personal attacks and slanders and the
discussion was suggested to move here.
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/BrowseList?listName=directory-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]&by=thread&from=815543
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/BrowseList?listName=directory-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]&by=thread&from=817324
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/BrowseList?listName=directory-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]&by=thread&from=816749
I suggest avoiding argumentum ad hominem in technical discussions. It
benefits no one, is logically invalid, and plays havoc on communities
=)
-Brian
On Jul 8, 2004, at 9:50 AM, Stephen McConnell wrote:
Nicola:
If you have a problem with my annoyance at your presumption to preach -
then present it here away from any particular project.
Stephen.
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Re: Personal attacks and respect
Nicola: If you have a problem with my annoyance at your presumption to preach - then present it here away from any particular project. Stephen. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
