Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

>  Along with POI we got Andrew
> Oliver... :)  

Oh gosh don't say things like that or we'll never approve new projects
;-)

> --Jeff
> 
> PS: +1 for adding Tapestry from me btw.
> 
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Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> > 
> > Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta
> > marketing.  
> 
> Thanks for the information! You know what I like about you? It is the
> faith that you have in yourself and in the fact that you know it all...
> 
I'm sorry to have insulted you.  I was only trying to help.  Based on
what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what I'd
observed.  If my observations were incorrect I apologize.

-Andy
 
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http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
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structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[dion]

Vic,

I'm acutely aware of Tiles and they are inscrutable to the average user. 
There are also lots of issues with Tiles fitting in with Struts 1.1 beta 
from memory.

It's telling that the documentation you give is from outside of the struts 
doc

news <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 21/10/2002 11:00:48 AM:
> Struts 1.1 has something called tiles that are can be used for re-use, 
> and at run time a tile can be bound to different beans, and more 
> advanced capabilities.
> http://www.lifl.fr/~dumoulin/tiles/doc/tutorialBody.html
> and an advanced PDF (in doco of basicPortal which uses tiles and else 
> where).
> 
> .V
--
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Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
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Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Ellis Teer]

If you check the cactus stats
(http://jakarta.apache.org/cactus/stats/index.html), you will find it is
receiving quite a lot of attention (1500-2500 visits per day). It gets
between 500-1500 downloads per day which is quite honorable for such a
"niche" project (not only it is unit testing but only J2EE-related unit
testing).
Note: I don't like too much the stats from webalizer and I have started
using awstats
(http://jakarta.apache.org/~vmassol/awstats/awstats.jakarta.apache.org.h
tml) as an experiment. Much better stats I think (except the history).


Thank you for mentioning that stats package as a sidenote.  Thinking of 
using it for a project now instead of analog/report magic.

With Cactus, my impression is that a sizable number of developers know 
about it, are interested in it, think it is a good idea, but are too 
'busy' in their day jobs to use unit testing, or more complex 
server-side unit testing.  And for those who have pet projects, those 
projects are usually small enough that the benefits of setting up test 
cases in the mind are outweighed by adding another feature.

You mentioned later in this thread what I believe is a key point.  You 
are doing something new and the public/users/possible committers need to 
learn to adopt unit testing and then 'IUT'.  And while people are 
thinking about it, they will browse the page, and even download a copy. 
 But until they use it for a project and see the advantages its 
adoption/attraction to developers may be slow.  I think the 
documentation and polish helps find developers more than hurts, IUT is 
just ahead of their needs though it doesn't need to be.

It reminds me of how digital video records have been slow to take off. 
But their time is coming one way or another.

--
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www.sitepen.com


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RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Vincent Massol]

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@;apache.org]
> Sent: 20 October 2002 19:03
> To: Vincent Massol
> Cc: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins
> Jakarta)
> 
> 
> > > I'm sorry to have insulted you.  I was only trying to help.  Based
on
> > > what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what
I'd
> > > observed.  If my observations were incorrect I apologize.
> >
> > Hey, your observations may be right and I appreciate your help! ;-)
> >
> > My strong reaction was probably due more to the tone of your email.
> > Saying to someone: "you have failed to provide ..." is not a very
nice
> > thing to say. Saying, "maybe you should try to work more on the
> > marketing side" is softer! :-). My turn to apologize if my reaction
was
> > too strong ;-)
> >
> 
> Ahh... word connotation.  I need a Jon page.. . I suck at finding the
> right way of saying things in email.  I'm told I'm abrasive in email,
> but not in person.  The funny thing is I say the same things... They
> just come off differently.  Maybe its my facial expressions or tone of
> voice...  (though my wife always misinterprets my facial expressions)
> 
> > Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do
to
> > improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be
missing
> > some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
> > information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus
team
> > could do?
> >
> 
> Release more often, announce the releases.  While you may have had
> articles published, I've never actually seen one.  (I've seen them on
> Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts).  I found
the
> best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they
> haven't covered it.  Find and article on say JUnit and write the
author
> "but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus!"
> 
> Some people do the JUG tour.
> 

The discussion I had started was not about how to grow Cactus user base.
We are very happy with that (well beyond my expectations actually and
progressing steadily) but more on how to grow the committer's base. Of
course growing the number of people who knows about Cactus may have an
effect on the number of committers but I am not so sure about that
(that's not my observations so far).

My belief is that Cactus is too much viewed as a finished product:
- it works
- it has nice documentation
- it has a nice build process
- it has a quite responsive mailing list (a bit less lately as I have
slightly less time with Maven/other stuff and I'm trying to see if
others jump in when I don't answer 30 seconds after the question has
been posted ;-). It seems to be working! I have the feeling Cactus is
getting more ML participation ...).
- steady releases (9 versions/releases in 16 months, 1 stable releases/4
months).

It is indeed a finished product but there are still so many interesting
things to do to make it even way better ... ;-) (documented on the
todo/goal page).

> > You said the persons in your team were pondering about using Cactus.
> > That means they already know about it. So marketing is good! Maybe
> > documentation need to be improved?
> >
> 
> No not on my team.. . Just people I know at work ;-)
> 
> If I had a need for cactus at the moment the documentation doesn't
look
> too bad.

It isn't but needs reorganization to prevent misreadings like the one
you mention below ... :-)

> 
> > FYI, we have actually started working on the Cactus front-end (Maven
> > plugin, Eclipse plugin, standalone testing application, Ant tasks,
etc)
> > which should make it easier to use (this was one weak-point noted by
the
> > users - the entry barrier).
> >
> 
> Ahh.  i actually use Centipede and haven't figured out what eclipse
> wants from me (I want CVS + compilation...it gives me either or).

Let's not go there... Ok just a little then... Personally I don't want
compilation, which Eclipse gives me ;-) (I'm talking about dynamic
compilation). I want to know right away the result of a change I make to
a class across all my project, I want to know right away if I've broken
any coding convention as I type (using checkstyle for example), I want
to know the code impacted by my Aspects (AOP/AspectJ), if I make a
change deep in the directory structure, I want it to be surfaced so that
I know what is not committed, etc.

If you can resist, try not to answer this as it will lead to another OT
thread ;-) (you've started!).

> 
> The biggest turnoff for me was this:
> 
> "
>  This will work with Internet Explorer as the XSL transformation is
> performed on the client side (i.e by the browser). I'm not sure about
> other browsers.
> "
> 
> IE doesn't work well under Linux.  Plus I like mozilla better and even
> use it when I have to use Winblows.

Do you want to participate? Feel free to send a patch to perform XSLT
transformation on the server side! More seriously, 

Re: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Howard M. Lewis Ship]

Marc Fluery is (or, at least, comes across as) a jerk with some good ideas.
Unlike most folks who have used Tapestry, he didn't ask for clarifications
or make suggestions or enter into a dialog ... he made demands.  When I
asked that he actually participate, he dropped off the list. He's definately
more of a hacker, really doesn't like the basic discipline of declaring
things before using them, type safety, etc.

I don't always javadoc accessor methods without side effects.  I don't
javadoc methods in implementations that are fully described in the
interface's javadoc.  If you look at the online Javadoc, not the code
comments, it's pretty darn complete.  I have a weak memory, so I always
comment as I go (or even comment first).

I wouldn't call the site ugly, and the docs *are* online, as HTML, PDF,
JavaDoc ... even the code coverage report (which includes source code).
There's a "Documentation" tab on the main frame.

I haven't worked for Primix in over a year.  Primix doesn't exist, they got
bought out by a bigger fish, BurntSand.  I believe they mostly do Windows
stuff, with some ATG thrown in.

- Original Message -
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 10:53 AM
Subject: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta


> So Tapestry seems to have attracted a healthy following and the
> attention of such notables as Marc Fleury (Whom I think is a technically
> proficient and thoroughly decent okay guy...and he likes altoids more
> than I do):
>
>
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1165034&forum_id=7644
>
> There is even potential synergy with another Jakarta project ;-):
>
>
http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1142661&forum_id=7644
>
> Oh and they already use stuff from jakarta-commons (as opposed to
> apache-commons which is confusing ;-) )
>
> The project is pretty active:
>
> http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/index.php?report=months&group_id=4754
>
> There is the inevitable book deal that seems to be all the rage these
> days:
>
> http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wiki_frame.html
>
> Hey I think I know that Christian Hall guy from somewhere ;-):
>
> http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wiki_frame.html
>
> I like the code okay, it has Javadoc...  There are some methods that
> probably should be javadoc'd but aren't
>
>
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/tapestry/Tapestry/framework/s
rc/net/sf/tapestry/AbstractPage.java?rev=1.8&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-m
arkup
>
> Their website is ugly and doesn't have their docs directly online:
>
> tapestry.sourceforge.net
>
> Notes:
>
> 1. I didn't actually try and run it, i just looked at all the available
> online information.. (Sorry, don't have time to run it, I'm assuming
> user testimony is enough)
>
> Concerns:
>
> Tapestry started out as Primix foundation..  Is Howard still employed by
> Primix... would he still be working on it if he was no longer?
>
> Tapestry appears to have decent documentation...  Do we allow that
> around here? ;-)
>
> My biggest concern is they want to start following the "Apache way"
> after moving here.  In my opinion they have enough contributors, etc.
> I'd like to see them start voting and the such first, then reevaluate
> once they've been doing it a few months.  They might also want to
> investigate a home at JBoss if Apache doesn't work out.  I know those
> guys are expanding.
>
> All in all, as much as I don't really care for PULL methods...  This
> seems to be a healthy community, it seems to be reasonably well in line
> with Jakarta, and I think it would be a good fit.
>
> So for whats its worth +0 from me, and +1 if they start following the
> voting rules/etc in advance then move here.
>
> If they do that I will volunteer to help them out with bringing them
> into the fold and all, although I'm not a member.
>
> -Andy
>
> On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 09:35, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> > I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about growing
the
> > community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.
Everything
> > is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the ultimate
> > decision, preferably agreeing with it.
> >
> > I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't really
get
> > started.  The problem is, developers are too happy, I think.  The
framework
> > does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so there
> > hasn't been a need to get involved.  A move to Jakarta will *force* a
few
> > people (and I know who they are) to step forward, since other wise, by
the
> > rules, nothing will actually happen.
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> > > 

Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrus Adamchik]

At 09:00 PM 10/20/2002 -0400, V. Cekvenich wrote:

Struts 1.1 has something called tiles that are can be used for re-use, and 
at run time a tile can be bound to different beans, and more advanced 
capabilities.
http://www.lifl.fr/~dumoulin/tiles/doc/tutorialBody.html
and an advanced PDF (in doco of basicPortal which uses tiles and else where).

Well, the fact that Tapestry is not JSP, allows it to do it in a more 
straightforward way, just like most other things you would need for the web 
app. Basically my experience is the following for doing most common web app 
operations:

...To do an average operation using
  [JSP]
 it takes X amount of custom code (plus it requires putting scripting 
code in template)
  [Struts]
 it takes 1.5X amount of custom code, but does not require scripting 
in the template
  [Tapestry]
 it takes 0.5X amount of custom code, does not require scripting in 
the template (and I can't measure the amount of reuse :-))


~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/  -
Home of Cayenne - Object Relational Java Framework
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: Log reporting (was: Is Cactus successful)

[Peter Donald]

Sourceforge it and let people play (or commons-sandbox it and see where it 
goes).

On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:05, Henri Yandell wrote:
> If anyone is ever interested, I have the foundation of a Java 'LogView'
> project currently sitting in my personal projects. The idea being that
> it's your usual chaining design with Loglets and Renderers and reports and
> stuff. By having in Java we gain the advantage of making it a live, based
> on Log4J [or other] input. I also thought it was important to make it just
> a log-reporting tool and not a web-log reporting tool. Most of the other
> tool seem to kill themselves by going straight to the weblog concept.
>
> Hen

-- 
Cheers,

Peter Donald

 "No. Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." 
 -- Yoda 
 


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[V. Cekvenich]

Struts 1.1 has something called tiles that are can be used for re-use, 
and at run time a tile can be bound to different beans, and more 
advanced capabilities.
http://www.lifl.fr/~dumoulin/tiles/doc/tutorialBody.html
and an advanced PDF (in doco of basicPortal which uses tiles and else 
where).

.V

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
John McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 20/10/2002 04:29:17 AM:

[snip] 

As much as I hate it, JSP is the recognized standard for webapp
development.  Jakarta's development of a general purpose java templating
technology, Velocity, is a valid alternative and is not even in direct
conflict with JSP.  But it is a simple, powerful alternative to JSP as
well. Does tapestry give us another alternate template system that is
only usable within the framework?



No, and that's where tapestry is different. Tapestry is a component 
framework, not a template engine. Think Swing components as an example.


Granted I could try to investigate Tapestry in depth to answer all my
reservations, but I'm busy and on the surface the project seems to
overlap several existing projects.  My -1 is not a statement that
Turbine (or Struts, Velocity, Avalon) should not have any competitors
within Jakarta.  I would prefer that Tapestry make the case that it
offers something that these projects do not and I don't think the
original proposal makes the case forcefully enough.



I've looked @ Tapestry in quite a bit of detail, and it does offer 
something different to Struts and Turbine, in that it focusses squarely on 
components and reuse.

There is a dearth of reusable components for Struts, simply because the 
JSP model doesn't lend itself to components very well, hence JSPTL and 
JSFaces.

Turbine has good component support for non-GUI components, but the 
template engine again doesn't lend itself to component embedding and 
reuse.

My 2c Aus
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




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Re: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 12:45, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> Marc Fluery is (or, at least, comes across as) a jerk with some good ideas.
> Unlike most folks who have used Tapestry, he didn't ask for clarifications
> or make suggestions or enter into a dialog ... he made demands.  When I
> asked that he actually participate, he dropped off the list. He's definately
> more of a hacker, really doesn't like the basic discipline of declaring
> things before using them, type safety, etc.
> 

;-)  I noted that as a positive.. . Yes, Marc lacks that little part of
the brain that prevents him from saying things that may offend others
(from what I observed), I also have this problem in some ways ;-).  I've
met him in person though, he's a nice guy and very bright.  He has a
certain charm about him that is hard to describe (abrasive yet...fun?). 

Other people I know also have issues, Andy Hunt (of pragmatic programmer
fame) recently put Object Oriented Programming on trial.  He also thinks
strong types are BS and that in fact Java isn't even actually strongly
typed (just enough to be annoying).  (I don't agree with him...just
stating this is a movement of some subscription)

Anyhow, I noted Marc's attention as a positive.  The fact that he looked
at it, whether or not he was good bad or indifferent, the fact that
notable people look at your project is a good thing..  It means you have
a good chance at building a healthy community..  (Via generating enough
attention) 

> I don't always javadoc accessor methods without side effects.  I don't
> javadoc methods in implementations that are fully described in the
> interface's javadoc.  If you look at the online Javadoc, not the code
> comments, it's pretty darn complete.  I have a weak memory, so I always
> comment as I go (or even comment first).
> 

Oh I didn't realize that.  I said most of the Javadoc was very
complete.  I just noticed some places where it wasn't. .  Documentation
isn't real big on Apache..  Its a ME thing..  (I don't get a binding
vote so it doesn't really matter what I think other than influencing any
like minded people)

> I wouldn't call the site ugly, and the docs *are* online, as HTML, PDF,
> JavaDoc ... even the code coverage report (which includes source code).
> There's a "Documentation" tab on the main frame.
> 

Sorry to insult you, I was just being silly when I called the site
ugly.  It actually uses colors that I can't really see (partially
colorblind) so I claim to hate those colors (certain shades of blue,
purple, etc all look black to me or are indistinguishable). 

Ha!  Sorry I missed it.  

> I haven't worked for Primix in over a year.  Primix doesn't exist, they got
> bought out by a bigger fish, BurntSand.  I believe they mostly do Windows
> stuff, with some ATG thrown in.
> 

Cool!  This is a positive.  What would be negative is if you said "yes I
work for them and will always work for them, but I'd abandon Tapestry to
the wolves if I didn't"...  

Just note... the process of becoming an Apache project is very very
painful (presently).  So don't get too discouraged.  I think Tapestry is
the most promising project I've seen proposed.  Unfortunately, there is
a random factor of politics that will come to play.

Again my biggest concern is your assertion that you should adopt the
voting rules, etc. after joining.  My opinion is that you should adopt
them, get them working.  It has worked the other way I believe, but just
my personal opinion.

-andy

> - Original Message -
> From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 10:53 AM
> Subject: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> 
> > So Tapestry seems to have attracted a healthy following and the
> > attention of such notables as Marc Fleury (Whom I think is a technically
> > proficient and thoroughly decent okay guy...and he likes altoids more
> > than I do):
> >
> >
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1165034&forum_id=7644
> >
> > There is even potential synergy with another Jakarta project ;-):
> >
> >
> http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1142661&forum_id=7644
> >
> > Oh and they already use stuff from jakarta-commons (as opposed to
> > apache-commons which is confusing ;-) )
> >
> > The project is pretty active:
> >
> > http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/index.php?report=months&group_id=4754
> >
> > There is the inevitable book deal that seems to be all the rage these
> > days:
> >
> > http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wiki_frame.html
> >
> > Hey I think I know that Christian Hall guy from somewhere ;-):
> >
> > http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wiki_frame.html
> >
> > I like the code okay, it has Javadoc...  There are some methods that
> > probably should be javadoc'd but aren't
> >
> >
> http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/tapestry/Tapestry/framework/s
> rc/net/sf/tapestry/AbstractPage.java?rev=1.8&content-type=text/vnd.viewcv

RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Vincent Massol]

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@;apache.org]
> Sent: 20 October 2002 18:32
> To: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: Re: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins
> Jakarta)
> 
> 
> > >
> > > Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta
> > > marketing.
> >
> > Thanks for the information! You know what I like about you? It is
the
> > faith that you have in yourself and in the fact that you know it
all...
> >
> I'm sorry to have insulted you.  I was only trying to help.  Based on
> what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what I'd
> observed.  If my observations were incorrect I apologize.

Hey, your observations may be right and I appreciate your help! ;-)

My strong reaction was probably due more to the tone of your email.
Saying to someone: "you have failed to provide ..." is not a very nice
thing to say. Saying, "maybe you should try to work more on the
marketing side" is softer! :-). My turn to apologize if my reaction was
too strong ;-)

Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to
improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing
some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team
could do?

You said the persons in your team were pondering about using Cactus.
That means they already know about it. So marketing is good! Maybe
documentation need to be improved?

FYI, we have actually started working on the Cactus front-end (Maven
plugin, Eclipse plugin, standalone testing application, Ant tasks, etc)
which should make it easier to use (this was one weak-point noted by the
users - the entry barrier).

Thanks
-Vincent

> 
> -Andy
> 
> --
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> Java
> http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> structure
>   a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex
> Projects!
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> For additional commands, e-mail:




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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[dion]

John McNally <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 20/10/2002 04:29:17 AM:

[snip] 
> As much as I hate it, JSP is the recognized standard for webapp
> development.  Jakarta's development of a general purpose java templating
> technology, Velocity, is a valid alternative and is not even in direct
> conflict with JSP.  But it is a simple, powerful alternative to JSP as
> well. Does tapestry give us another alternate template system that is
> only usable within the framework?

No, and that's where tapestry is different. Tapestry is a component 
framework, not a template engine. Think Swing components as an example.

> Granted I could try to investigate Tapestry in depth to answer all my
> reservations, but I'm busy and on the surface the project seems to
> overlap several existing projects.  My -1 is not a statement that
> Turbine (or Struts, Velocity, Avalon) should not have any competitors
> within Jakarta.  I would prefer that Tapestry make the case that it
> offers something that these projects do not and I don't think the
> original proposal makes the case forcefully enough.

I've looked @ Tapestry in quite a bit of detail, and it does offer 
something different to Struts and Turbine, in that it focusses squarely on 
components and reuse.

There is a dearth of reusable components for Struts, simply because the 
JSP model doesn't lend itself to components very well, hence JSPTL and 
JSFaces.

Turbine has good component support for non-GUI components, but the 
template engine again doesn't lend itself to component embedding and 
reuse.

My 2c Aus
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




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Re: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Peter Donald]

On Thu, 1 Jan 1970 09:59, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Again my biggest concern is your assertion that you should adopt the
> voting rules, etc. after joining.  My opinion is that you should adopt
> them, get them working.  

+1

-- 
Cheers,

Peter Donald
Duct tape is like the force.  It has a light side, and a dark side, and
it binds the universe together ...
-- Carl Zwanzig 


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Jeff Turner]

On Sun, Oct 20, 2002 at 03:23:27PM +0100, Vincent Massol wrote:
...
> I'm interested to know more about this last part... I have moved Cactus
> from SF to Jakarta a bit more than a year ago and I've found that I
> haven't been able to grow much the number of committers.

Oh well, in the deal, Jakarta got this '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' fellow who's
now doing good stuff in Maven and Commons... :)

The point being: when bringing in a new project, the new people are often
just as valuable as the new codebase.  Along with POI we got Andrew
Oliver... :)  I'm not suggesting anyone try to 'evaluate' people, just be
aware of this possible benefit, which may tilt some +0's to +1.

--Jeff

PS: +1 for adding Tapestry from me btw.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[V. Cekvenich]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

Being the big moron I am, I don't see any of these issues to be as
important as:  1. Do they develop in "the apache way", 2. Is it a
vibrant robust community, 3. Is there any point at all. . . 

I see little point in having 30 persistence APIs or 30 connection pools,
etc...apparently some people do...  But 5 web app frameworks even if
they are all "pull" seems reasonable...  There are certainly MORE than 5
ways to roll a webapp  (even if I haven't found one I actually like
yet...)


A good project, I think it was the passed over db.apache project would 
be to unify the persistence API.
Similar to commons logging API.
Like a DAO api that lets you implement in any of the 30 way (same as one 
should be able to change the presentation layer, one should be able to 
change the persistence layer)
I tried to do this with:
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/basicportal/basicPortal_07/src/org/commons/DAO/BasicDAO.java?rev=1.2&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup
but I do not have the clout of Jakarta.

If we can come up with a persistence API that is the lowest common 
denominator for all API that would be real nice.
Also JSF currently has a "model expression interfaces" or something like 
that it requires of DAO, but induced that JDO, ORB, Simper, RowSet, EJB, 
Torqe, Castor, Scaffolding, Doclets, etc. etc.

So if we can have a small JAKARTA api that we encourage all subprojects 
to implement, but make it light, one ex:

public interface BasicDAO extends Iterator (or Collection)
{
   public void retrieve(long i) throws Exception;
public void update() throws Exception;
public void insertRow() throws Exception;
   public void delete() throws Exception;
public boolean setProperty(String name, Object value) throws Exception;
public Object getProperty(String name) throws Exception;
public void beforeFirst() throws Exception;
public void first() throws Exception;
public void commit() throws Exception;
public void rollback() throws Exception;
}

I have a SourceForge project that needs to use RowSet, or JDO 
persistence, and I am using this, but...

Anyway, I wish, I wish

.V


-Andy

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 20:31, John McNally wrote:


I have taken a closer look at Tapestry and it does provide a quite a
different strategy for web application development than Turbine and
probably also Struts.  It's very well documented and the code looks well
written also.  I would be willing to drop my -1; I would like to hear a
comparison with the failed spfc project though.



It seems like a similar idea, or am I wrong?  I liked the idea of spfc.
Though the change in perspective needed to think of a webapp in terms of
event driven components was considered too great a stretch, I guess.  Is
such an approach gaining more acceptance, or have I missed the point of
Tapestry?

john mcnally

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 16:22, Pier Fumagalli wrote:


On 19/10/02 19:49, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



So could someone clarify that for me... We're here to promote community
software developmentas long as they don't overlap?  sorry I totally
misunderstood the apache way.  (especially with all the overlapping
projects to the contrary)


I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)

   Pier


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RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Henri Yandell]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, Vincent Massol wrote:

>
>
> Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to
> improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing
> some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
> information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team
> could do?

Even ignoring my Jakarta-Apache involvement, I had become aware of Cactus
through articles [i think] and mention in the media. However, there's no
real meme [I think is the phrase] for Cactus. I know that Cactus is Java,
I know it tests web pages somehow (least it's hooked up in there) but I
don't have a good idea as to why I would choose it, how it differs from
httpunit etc. [A quick look at the website shows that my initial
assumption was off a touch, it tests Java server-side components].

So for me personally, and I suspect other people who are aware of Cactus,
there's not a real understanding first off of where it fits in, the level
of effort to use etc.

[adding it to article list to write at some point, though I'm sure there
are many out there. ]

Probably not much use, but a report from a prospective customer can
sometimes be of interest. I'd say Cactus is marketing the brand okay, but
not the meme. Not that I really understand brands or memes :)

Hen


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RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Vincent Massol]

> -Original Message-
> From: Henri Yandell [mailto:bayard@;generationjava.com]
> Sent: 20 October 2002 20:36
> To: Jakarta General List
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins
> Jakarta)
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, Vincent Massol wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do
to
> > improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be
missing
> > some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
> > information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus
team
> > could do?
> 
> Even ignoring my Jakarta-Apache involvement, I had become aware of
Cactus
> through articles [i think] and mention in the media. However, there's
no
> real meme [I think is the phrase] for Cactus. I know that Cactus is
Java,
> I know it tests web pages somehow (least it's hooked up in there) but
I
> don't have a good idea as to why I would choose it, how it differs
from
> httpunit etc. [A quick look at the website shows that my initial
> assumption was off a touch, it tests Java server-side components].

Hehe ... I think you may have nailed the exact problem! Even your last
sentence is not completely correct which proves your point (although it
is written on the web site!)... ;-) It's about *unit* testing java
server-side components (although at the moment it is more restricted to
unit testing J2EE components but that's not the only goal). And it's
about doing it in-container (inside the container).

Would "In-container Unit Testing" or "Integration Unit Testing" be a
nice meme?

I think the problem also comes from the fact that unit tests are still
relatively new. And what Cactus is doing is even newer. Thus there is
not yet any global knowledge of what IUT is about ... Cactus was built
to explore this road and is indeed a precursor ;-)

> 
> So for me personally, and I suspect other people who are aware of
Cactus,
> there's not a real understanding first off of where it fits in, the
level
> of effort to use etc.
> 

Yes, you are right. Everything is described on the web site (included
comparisons with other strategies), etc. BUT the problem is that you
have to read it first ... 

In that sense, Andrew was right. There is a need to do a lot of
evangelization on the concept of IUT so that it enters our global mind.

> [adding it to article list to write at some point, though I'm sure
there
> are many out there. ]

That would be nice ;-)

> 
> Probably not much use, but a report from a prospective customer can
> sometimes be of interest. I'd say Cactus is marketing the brand okay,
but
> not the meme. Not that I really understand brands or memes :)

I think you are completely right :-)

In addition the concept may need to be expanded a bit as it may be too
restrictive. Here are some ideas for the future:
- runtime unit testing (possibly using AOP)
- stress unit testing
(Thus more like tools like Introscope but at a much more agile level.)

It would still be In-Container Unit Testing (ICUT or IUT), though...
 
> 
> Hen
> 

-Vincent



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RE: Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> > I'm sorry to have insulted you.  I was only trying to help.  Based on
> > what you said, the observations I'd had from where I work and what I'd
> > observed.  If my observations were incorrect I apologize.
> 
> Hey, your observations may be right and I appreciate your help! ;-)
> 
> My strong reaction was probably due more to the tone of your email.
> Saying to someone: "you have failed to provide ..." is not a very nice
> thing to say. Saying, "maybe you should try to work more on the
> marketing side" is softer! :-). My turn to apologize if my reaction was
> too strong ;-)
> 

Ahh... word connotation.  I need a Jon page.. . I suck at finding the
right way of saying things in email.  I'm told I'm abrasive in email,
but not in person.  The funny thing is I say the same things... They
just come off differently.  Maybe its my facial expressions or tone of
voice...  (though my wife always misinterprets my facial expressions)

> Ok I want to be positive and try to see if there's anything I can do to
> improve the overall Cactus community. You say Cactus might be missing
> some marketing muscles. I would like to believe that. From the
> information in my email do you still think there's more the Cactus team
> could do?
> 

Release more often, announce the releases.  While you may have had
articles published, I've never actually seen one.  (I've seen them on
Maven, Tomcat, Velocity, Struts to no end, Cocoon, Struts).  I found the
best approach to this is to spam magazines and complain that they
haven't covered it.  Find and article on say JUnit and write the author
"but you haven't written on web app testing with cactus!"  

Some people do the JUG tour.  

> You said the persons in your team were pondering about using Cactus.
> That means they already know about it. So marketing is good! Maybe
> documentation need to be improved?
> 

No not on my team.. . Just people I know at work ;-)

If I had a need for cactus at the moment the documentation doesn't look
too bad.

> FYI, we have actually started working on the Cactus front-end (Maven
> plugin, Eclipse plugin, standalone testing application, Ant tasks, etc)
> which should make it easier to use (this was one weak-point noted by the
> users - the entry barrier).
> 

Ahh.  i actually use Centipede and haven't figured out what eclipse
wants from me (I want CVS + compilation...it gives me either or).

The biggest turnoff for me was this:

"
 This will work with Internet Explorer as the XSL transformation is
performed on the client side (i.e by the browser). I'm not sure about
other browsers.
" 

IE doesn't work well under Linux.  Plus I like mozilla better and even
use it when I have to use Winblows.  

-Andy

> Thanks
> -Vincent
> 
> > 
> > -Andy
> > 
> > --
> > http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> > Java
> > http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> > structure
> > a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex
> > Projects!
> > The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> > vote.
> > -Ambassador Kosh
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> 
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Log reporting (was: Is Cactus successful)

[Henri Yandell]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2002, Ellis Teer wrote:

> > Note: I don't like too much the stats from webalizer and I have started
> > using awstats

I've been a webalizer user too. It suffices.

> > (http://jakarta.apache.org/~vmassol/awstats/awstats.jakarta.apache.org.h
> > tml) as an experiment. Much better stats I think (except the history).
>
> Thank you for mentioning that stats package as a sidenote.  Thinking of
> using it for a project now instead of analog/report magic.

If anyone is ever interested, I have the foundation of a Java 'LogView'
project currently sitting in my personal projects. The idea being that
it's your usual chaining design with Loglets and Renderers and reports and
stuff. By having in Java we gain the advantage of making it a live, based
on Log4J [or other] input. I also thought it was important to make it just
a log-reporting tool and not a web-log reporting tool. Most of the other
tool seem to kill themselves by going straight to the weblog concept.

Hen


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 10/19/02 8:57 PM, "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:40, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>> on 2002/10/19 4:22 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
>>> Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
>>> 
>>>   Pier
>> 
>> Yea, let's see if we can move Jetty under Jakarta.
>> 
>> =)
> 
> Well it is faster ...
> 
> ;)

And trivial to embed :)

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]+1-203-355-2219 (w)
Adeptra Inc. +1-203-247-1713 (m)



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RE: Problem with Bugzilla

[Danny Angus]

> my AOL browser 

YUK!


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Is Cactus successful (was RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta)

[Vincent Massol]

Hi Andrew,

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:acoliver@;apache.org]
> Sent: 20 October 2002 16:09
> To: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta
> marketing.  

Thanks for the information! You know what I like about you? It is the
faith that you have in yourself and in the fact that you know it all...

> Where I work, lots of people talk about "maybe we should use
> cactus", and heck there are those who use all sorts of things from the
> Java Developers Journal that they have insufficient knowledge and
> experience to carry off.  (Yes you can write an object cache...  But
why
> would you, and why would you do it in your stateless session beans)...
> But cactus is a well kept secret.  Its one that gets whispered often.
> 
> From my limited experience, marketing (ugh!) is just as important as
> anything else to increase your community size.

Interesting... However, I do believe the opposite (and maybe I am
wrong)! I believe Cactus is victim of its success ... rather than it's
lack of ...

If you check the cactus stats
(http://jakarta.apache.org/cactus/stats/index.html), you will find it is
receiving quite a lot of attention (1500-2500 visits per day). It gets
between 500-1500 downloads per day which is quite honorable for such a
"niche" project (not only it is unit testing but only J2EE-related unit
testing).

Note: I don't like too much the stats from webalizer and I have started
using awstats
(http://jakarta.apache.org/~vmassol/awstats/awstats.jakarta.apache.org.h
tml) as an experiment. Much better stats I think (except the history).

Cactus is well advertised and easy to find (junit, google, a book with
Cactus in the title, several others having a chapter on Cactus, several
articles on the web, reviews in magazines, a book in progress I am
writing, etc).

I completely agree with you on marketing which is why I have worked on
that since day one of Cactus ... I may not be doing enough of it (who
does?) but it already takes all my night time work ... ;-)

That said, I only wish to learn and I would love to know some more
tricks from you!

Thanks
-Vincent

> 
> -Andy
> 
> On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 10:23, Vincent Massol wrote:
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Howard M. Lewis Ship [mailto:hlship@;attbi.com]
> > > Sent: 20 October 2002 14:36
> > > To: Jakarta General List
> > > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> > >
> > > I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about
> > growing
> > > the
> > > community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.
> > Everything
> > > is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the
ultimate
> > > decision, preferably agreeing with it.
> > >
> > > I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't
really
> > get
> > > started.  The problem is, developers are too happy, I think.  The
> > > framework
> > > does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so
> > there
> > > hasn't been a need to get involved.  A move to Jakarta will
*force* a
> > few
> > > people (and I know who they are) to step forward, since other
wise, by
> > the
> > > rules, nothing will actually happen.
> >
> > I'm interested to know more about this last part... I have moved
Cactus
> > from SF to Jakarta a bit more than a year ago and I've found that I
> > haven't been able to grow much the number of committers. I believe
there
> > are 2 possible reasons:
> >
> > 1/ Cactus (server-side unit testing - J2EE ATM) is too much of a
niche
> > and people think there's not much more to do in that domain (quite
> > wrongly I can assure you ... :-))
> >
> > 2/ Cactus is a victim of its success. From the beginning I have
tried to
> > work hard to provide everything: documentation, quick answers to ML,
> > quick fixes, be customer driven, etc. Thus, as you say, people do
not
> > participate because it works and the projects moves forward by
itself
> > (so it seems ;-)).
> >
> > So I'm not sure why you say that a move to jakarta would change
point 2/
> > (which seems to be Tapestry's case). I'm interested in knowing if
you
> > have a magic recipe that I could apply ... :-)
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Vincent
> >
> > PS: BTW, how do you unit test tapestry components? ;-)
> >
> > >
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:04 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> > > > "Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on
this.
> > > Without
> > > > a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to
> > > ultimately
> > > > decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.
> > >
> > > Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you
come
> > to
>

Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Thats why one should look at whether it has an existing community... if
it does, question answered.  If not...well there is something else.

-Andy

> 
> The point is apache had a project with similar ideas and it died.  Was
> it ahead of its time? Or are there fundamental problems with the
> approach that still exist?  I am willing to accept that it was just too
> large an undertaking at the time - about 4 years ago, for the developers
> involved.  But I would be happier, if Howard pointed out why Tapestry is
> setup for success when a precedent exists that proves developing a
> community around such an idea is difficult.
> 
> john mcnally
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 21:21, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> On 20/10/02 0:40, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > on 2002/10/19 4:22 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> >> I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
> >> Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> >> 
> >>   Pier
> > 
> > Yea, let's see if we can move Jetty under Jakarta.
> 
> Greg is going to kill me! :-) Sourceforge works more than fine for now...
> But sure it's damn fast! :-)
> 

Cool.  Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help...  And
I'll be happy to help make the funeral arrangements.  Just tell me what
kinds of flowers and stuff cause I'm not good with that sort of thing.  

-Andy

> Pier
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
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http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
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Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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-Ambassador Kosh


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Problem with Bugzilla

[DEVONS02]

Hi there -- On Saturday 10/19/02 at 18:33 EST, I tried to look up bugs 
regarding what I can do to fix Ant.bat so it will work on Windows98 and every 
time I would get onto the Bugzilla page, my AOL browser would just freeze up 
and I couldn't even move my mouse or do anything with my keyboard.  This 
happened 4 times so I know it is no freak occurrence so I thought I would let 
you know.

Sincerely,

Allan J Horwitz, M.Sc.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Howard M. Lewis Ship]

I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about growing the
community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.  Everything
is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the ultimate
decision, preferably agreeing with it.

I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't really get
started.  The problem is, developers are too happy, I think.  The framework
does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so there
hasn't been a need to get involved.  A move to Jakarta will *force* a few
people (and I know who they are) to step forward, since other wise, by the
rules, nothing will actually happen.

- Original Message -
From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta


On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> "Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.
Without
> a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to ultimately
> decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.

Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you come to
Apache
but there is no harm and considerable benefit in moving to this model IMHO.
It would also enhance your chances of making it into Apache.

--
Cheers,

Peter Donald
--
 Logic: The art of being wrong with confidence...
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Howard M. Lewis Ship]

Well, looking at the docs for SPFC I can see the following differences right
off the bat:

It looks a bit more like Swinglets and the others, in that it uses or mimics
the Swing APIs.  You assemble your pages in code, i.e., create a Form
object, add a TextField object and a Button object, and create event
handling inner classes and add them as listeners.

Behind the scenes, something somewhat similar is happening in Tapestry, but
Tapestry does as much as it can declaratively, in XML, rather than in Java
code.

Anyway, if you're asking why SPFC failed and why Tapestry hasn't, it simply
looks like SPFC never made it out of the alpha stage.  Almost no
documentaiton, almost no Javadoc, no examples.  No proof that it's a viable
system to anyone outside the project.  It's clear the initial developers got
sidetracked and lost interest.

Tapestry gained a lot because, in parallel with creating it and dumping it
into SourceForge, we used it on a medium-sized (175 pages) project at
Primix, during which the worst rough edges were smoothed out.  Sure, that
early pre-1.0 code is pretty darn primitive by todays standards, but by the
time folks outside of Primix started seeing Tapestry, they saw something
that was already usuable, and getting better every week.


- Original Message -
From: "John McNally" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta


> I have taken a closer look at Tapestry and it does provide a quite a
> different strategy for web application development than Turbine and
> probably also Struts.  It's very well documented and the code looks well
> written also.  I would be willing to drop my -1; I would like to hear a
> comparison with the failed spfc project though.
>
>

>
> It seems like a similar idea, or am I wrong?  I liked the idea of spfc.
> Though the change in perspective needed to think of a webapp in terms of
> event driven components was considered too great a stretch, I guess.  Is
> such an approach gaining more acceptance, or have I missed the point of
> Tapestry?
>
> john mcnally
>
> On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 16:22, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > On 19/10/02 19:49, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > So could someone clarify that for me... We're here to promote
community
> > > software developmentas long as they don't overlap?  sorry I
totally
> > > misunderstood the apache way.  (especially with all the overlapping
> > > projects to the contrary)
> >
> > I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
> > Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
> >
> > Pier
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> > For additional commands, e-mail:

>
>
>
> --
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>


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Re: Problem with Bugzilla

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/10/19 3:34 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi there -- On Saturday 10/19/02 at 18:33 EST, I tried to look up bugs
> regarding what I can do to fix Ant.bat so it will work on Windows98 and every
> time I would get onto the Bugzilla page, my AOL browser would just freeze up
> and I couldn't even move my mouse or do anything with my keyboard.  This
> happened 4 times so I know it is no freak occurrence so I thought I would let
> you know.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Allan J Horwitz, M.Sc.

For AOL tech support, please call 1-800-AOL-SUCK

=)

-jon

-- 
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314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
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RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Just FYI, you have failed to provide sufficient outside-of-jakarta
marketing.  Where I work, lots of people talk about "maybe we should use
cactus", and heck there are those who use all sorts of things from the
Java Developers Journal that they have insufficient knowledge and
experience to carry off.  (Yes you can write an object cache...  But why
would you, and why would you do it in your stateless session beans)... 
But cactus is a well kept secret.  Its one that gets whispered often.  

>From my limited experience, marketing (ugh!) is just as important as
anything else to increase your community size. 

-Andy

On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 10:23, Vincent Massol wrote:
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Howard M. Lewis Ship [mailto:hlship@;attbi.com]
> > Sent: 20 October 2002 14:36
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> > 
> > I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about
> growing
> > the
> > community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.
> Everything
> > is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the ultimate
> > decision, preferably agreeing with it.
> > 
> > I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't really
> get
> > started.  The problem is, developers are too happy, I think.  The
> > framework
> > does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so
> there
> > hasn't been a need to get involved.  A move to Jakarta will *force* a
> few
> > people (and I know who they are) to step forward, since other wise, by
> the
> > rules, nothing will actually happen.
> 
> I'm interested to know more about this last part... I have moved Cactus
> from SF to Jakarta a bit more than a year ago and I've found that I
> haven't been able to grow much the number of committers. I believe there
> are 2 possible reasons:
> 
> 1/ Cactus (server-side unit testing - J2EE ATM) is too much of a niche
> and people think there's not much more to do in that domain (quite
> wrongly I can assure you ... :-))
> 
> 2/ Cactus is a victim of its success. From the beginning I have tried to
> work hard to provide everything: documentation, quick answers to ML,
> quick fixes, be customer driven, etc. Thus, as you say, people do not
> participate because it works and the projects moves forward by itself
> (so it seems ;-)).
> 
> So I'm not sure why you say that a move to jakarta would change point 2/
> (which seems to be Tapestry's case). I'm interested in knowing if you
> have a magic recipe that I could apply ... :-)
> 
> Thanks
> -Vincent  
> 
> PS: BTW, how do you unit test tapestry components? ;-)
> 
> > 
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> > > "Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.
> > Without
> > > a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to
> > ultimately
> > > decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.
> > 
> > Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you come
> to
> > Apache
> > but there is no harm and considerable benefit in moving to this model
> > IMHO.
> > It would also enhance your chances of making it into Apache.
> > 
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Peter Donald
> > --
> >  Logic: The art of being wrong with confidence...
> > --
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> 
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> 
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[John McNally]

On Sat, 2002-10-19 at 17:53, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Being the big moron I am, I don't see any of these issues to be as
> important as:  1. Do they develop in "the apache way", 2. Is it a
> vibrant robust community, 3. Is there any point at all. . . 
> 

The point is apache had a project with similar ideas and it died.  Was
it ahead of its time? Or are there fundamental problems with the
approach that still exist?  I am willing to accept that it was just too
large an undertaking at the time - about 4 years ago, for the developers
involved.  But I would be happier, if Howard pointed out why Tapestry is
setup for success when a precedent exists that proves developing a
community around such an idea is difficult.

john mcnally




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Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrew C. Oliver]

So Tapestry seems to have attracted a healthy following and the
attention of such notables as Marc Fleury (Whom I think is a technically
proficient and thoroughly decent okay guy...and he likes altoids more
than I do): 

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1165034&forum_id=7644

There is even potential synergy with another Jakarta project ;-):

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=1142661&forum_id=7644

Oh and they already use stuff from jakarta-commons (as opposed to
apache-commons which is confusing ;-) )

The project is pretty active:

http://sourceforge.net/project/stats/index.php?report=months&group_id=4754

There is the inevitable book deal that seems to be all the rage these
days:

http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wiki_frame.html

Hey I think I know that Christian Hall guy from somewhere ;-):

http://tapestry.sourceforge.net/wiki_frame.html

I like the code okay, it has Javadoc...  There are some methods that
probably should be javadoc'd but aren't

http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/tapestry/Tapestry/framework/src/net/sf/tapestry/AbstractPage.java?rev=1.8&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup

Their website is ugly and doesn't have their docs directly online:

tapestry.sourceforge.net

Notes:

1. I didn't actually try and run it, i just looked at all the available
online information.. (Sorry, don't have time to run it, I'm assuming
user testimony is enough)

Concerns:

Tapestry started out as Primix foundation..  Is Howard still employed by
Primix... would he still be working on it if he was no longer?

Tapestry appears to have decent documentation...  Do we allow that
around here? ;-)

My biggest concern is they want to start following the "Apache way"
after moving here.  In my opinion they have enough contributors, etc. 
I'd like to see them start voting and the such first, then reevaluate
once they've been doing it a few months.  They might also want to
investigate a home at JBoss if Apache doesn't work out.  I know those
guys are expanding.

All in all, as much as I don't really care for PULL methods...  This
seems to be a healthy community, it seems to be reasonably well in line
with Jakarta, and I think it would be a good fit.

So for whats its worth +0 from me, and +1 if they start following the
voting rules/etc in advance then move here.

If they do that I will volunteer to help them out with bringing them
into the fold and all, although I'm not a member.

-Andy

On Sun, 2002-10-20 at 09:35, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about growing the
> community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.  Everything
> is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the ultimate
> decision, preferably agreeing with it.
> 
> I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't really get
> started.  The problem is, developers are too happy, I think.  The framework
> does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so there
> hasn't been a need to get involved.  A move to Jakarta will *force* a few
> people (and I know who they are) to step forward, since other wise, by the
> rules, nothing will actually happen.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> 
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> > "Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.
> Without
> > a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to ultimately
> > decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.
> 
> Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you come to
> Apache
> but there is no harm and considerable benefit in moving to this model IMHO.
> It would also enhance your chances of making it into Apache.
> 
> --
> Cheers,
> 
> Peter Donald
> --
>  Logic: The art of being wrong with confidence...
> --
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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For addition

RE: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Vincent Massol]

> -Original Message-
> From: Howard M. Lewis Ship [mailto:hlship@;attbi.com]
> Sent: 20 October 2002 14:36
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> I don't have a way to qualify this, but I'm very concerned about
growing
> the
> community, and therefore I'm very careful not to be arbitrary.
Everything
> is a discussion, and I prefer that person X be happy with the ultimate
> decision, preferably agreeing with it.
> 
> I've tried to before to spur more organization, but that didn't really
get
> started.  The problem is, developers are too happy, I think.  The
> framework
> does mostly what they need, bugs fixes and improvements happen, so
there
> hasn't been a need to get involved.  A move to Jakarta will *force* a
few
> people (and I know who they are) to step forward, since other wise, by
the
> rules, nothing will actually happen.

I'm interested to know more about this last part... I have moved Cactus
from SF to Jakarta a bit more than a year ago and I've found that I
haven't been able to grow much the number of committers. I believe there
are 2 possible reasons:

1/ Cactus (server-side unit testing - J2EE ATM) is too much of a niche
and people think there's not much more to do in that domain (quite
wrongly I can assure you ... :-))

2/ Cactus is a victim of its success. From the beginning I have tried to
work hard to provide everything: documentation, quick answers to ML,
quick fixes, be customer driven, etc. Thus, as you say, people do not
participate because it works and the projects moves forward by itself
(so it seems ;-)).

So I'm not sure why you say that a move to jakarta would change point 2/
(which seems to be Tapestry's case). I'm interested in knowing if you
have a magic recipe that I could apply ... :-)

Thanks
-Vincent  

PS: BTW, how do you unit test tapestry components? ;-)

> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 9:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta
> 
> 
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
> > "Benevolent dictatorship".  Probably should have expanded on this.
> Without
> > a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to
> ultimately
> > decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.
> 
> Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you come
to
> Apache
> but there is no harm and considerable benefit in moving to this model
> IMHO.
> It would also enhance your chances of making it into Apache.
> 
> --
> Cheers,
> 
> Peter Donald
> --
>  Logic: The art of being wrong with confidence...
> --
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> For additional commands, e-mail:

> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> For additional commands, e-mail:




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