Re: The vendors page

[Andrus Adamchik]

-1

While (1) is no longer an issue (c'mon, it wasn't a real issue when the
vendor page was first created!), (2) is still true.

And the main things I disagree with is that criteria of "support" vs.
support should be committer status of one of the company employees. There
should definitely be some (more or less strict) "lameness" review of each
submission, but making it elitist just doesn't make sense.

Say for instance someone has a company that does a training course on a
number of Jakarta projects. None of the course instructors are Jakarta
committers, but they still educate the world about OpenSource software and
make whatever money they can while serving the community in their own way.
Is it that bad to list them on the vendor page?

Andrus Adamchik


> The original intent of the vendors.xml page was:
>
>  1. Because I got sick of hearing people say "Jakarta projects are not
> supported" and wanted a page to send people to during presentations.
>
>  2. So a certain unnamed committer would not feel the need to spam the
> lists
> (because I though if he got away with it, others would start doing it
> and then I'd get lists full of consultancy spam).
>
> Now that Open Source is no longer a commercial cussword and I doubt even
> an economic turnaround will kill the momentum, I think that the policy
> for that page ought to be "just have one of the committers you employ on
> the Jakarta projects you support make the change".  Thus tightening it
> from people who "support" Jakarta projects to people who support Jakarta
> projects.
>
> Thoughts/Objections?
>
> -Andy



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Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses

[Andrus Adamchik]

> I'd be all of this if it would make a difference, unfortunately you're
> barking up the wrong tree.

You gotta start somewhere. The fact that "others are doing it wrong" is
not an excuse to do the wrong thing yourself (see your own argument about
Outlook - you can't make everyone in the world to stop using Outlook, but
at least you should try doing something that is in your power).

But well...I might as well just give up this whole discussion, and simply
add an extra spamassassin rule on my mailserver or something, instead of
trying to change the world for better :-)


> I'm getting that virus/attachment to every
> email address I have just about.  I think it looks locally (user address
> book, etc).  Thus I'm against this on the principal that its a big waste
> of time. Spammers will get publicly posted email addresses elsewhere and
> viruses get them from outlook.
> (and I mean OUTLOOK.  You want to stop
> mail viruses??? STOP USING M$ OUTLOOK AND EXCHANGE.  Write your
> sysadmin, explain to him that he's an idiot for installing that
> "security hole with email features").

You got my support on that :-)

> --
> Andrew C. Oliver


Andrus



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Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses

[Andrus Adamchik]

>> Jakarta website has a very unfortunate and harmful feature - a full
>> mbox archive at
>>
>>http://jakarta.apache.org/mail/
>>
>> This is an invitation to spammers and people who spread viruses. And
>> all those types are gladly taking advantage of it. Here is a few
>> facts:
>>

>>
>
> -1.  Open Source means "Open" (as in speach, not beer).  The Jakarta
> mail lists are mirrored by very many sites (that aren't under Jakarta
> control), so it wouldn't help anyway.

I guess my definition of OpenSource is different. "Open" shouldn't mean
naive. This is like saying that "We are OpenSource, lets post root
passwords for everyone to use".


> It is just silly to be the only
> people that aren't archiving our mailing-lists.  And I certainly don't
> want Jakarta to go on record as endorsing gmain (as much as I love to
> use them :).

I never suggested that Jakarta should stop archiving the mailing lists.
Just that it should be done smarter. And the discussion further down in
this thread is just about that.

If other sites want to archive the mailing lists, it is their
responsibility to do the right thing. And obfuscating the addresses in
archive has never created any problems. You can always subscribe to the
list and ask if a particular person is around.

sed -e "s/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/../"

on incoming mail works very well for Cayenne archives :-)

Andrus Adamchik
  Check Out Cayenne O/R:
  http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/





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Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses

[Andrus Adamchik]

Jakarta website has a very unfortunate and harmful feature - a full mbox
archive at

   http://jakarta.apache.org/mail/

This is an invitation to spammers and people who spread viruses. And all
those types are gladly taking advantage of it. Here is a few facts:

1. I've been receiving quiet a lot of emails with Outlook viruses
(couldn't care less of course - I never used Outlook :-)) allegedly from
people that I saw posting on this mailing list. Ok, I disregarded those.
There are people who do use Outlook and they may have been infected, and
happened to have my old messages in the INBOX or something.

2. Now I noticed that my address is being used in some kind of distributed
virus attack (I see up to 20 bounces a day from invalid addesses claiming
that I sent the original message). Bounces IPs check just fine (aol.com,
sun.com, a few other known domains), so bounces themselves are not spam.
But information in the quoted bounced messages (that contain a virus among
other things) has some correlation with Jakarta comminity members.

Makes me wonder

[PROPOSAL]

There maybe other exlanations for these things, but still it would be wise
to pull the archives out of the site. Of course there are people who would
want to search them for information (since browseable Jakarta archives are
well, should I say hard to use :-)), but those archives can be
transferred to gmane.org or something...

Thoughts? Anyone else got hit by that (I remember someone posting
something similar long time ago).

Andrus Adamchik
  Check Out Cayenne O/R:
  http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/





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Re: Is there a place for Eclipse plugins in Apache/Jakarta land?

[Andrus Adamchik]

> Since Eclipse folks have a directory of Eclipse Plugins already,
> that is where I would put it.  That is where Eclipse developers
> will look for it.  They will not necessarily be using Tomcat or
> Cactus, for instance.
>
> Otis

AFAIK, Eclipse website doesn't really host plugin projects. E.g. an
Eclipse plugin for WebObjects, developed inside the ObjectStyle community
( http://objectstyle.org/woproject/ ), is present on Eclipse website at

  http://www.eclipse.org/community/plugins.html

But other than that has no affiliation with Eclipse. So pointing to
Eclipse doesn't solve Vincent's problem. Looks like he is really looking
for a place to develop a community around the plugin project. IMO this is
a good standalone project idea. So it is a choice between Apache and
SourceForge I guess.

Andrus Adamchik

---
ORM + GUI tools - http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/



>
>  On Thu, 12 Jun 2003, Vincent Massol ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> As part of Cactus, we have developed 2 Eclipse plugins. One of
> them is a
>> generic webapp plugin. We would like to extract this from the
> Cactus CVS
>> and let others benefit from it.
>>
>> However, I'm not sure where we should put this new project.
>>
>> Obviously one choice is to put it on SourceForge. Before doing
> this, I
>> wanted to let us decide first if we wanted to have a place in
> Apache
>> land where we would put such IDE plugins.
>>
>> I think more and more the focus in java land is on usability.
> Be it
>> Tomcat, Avalon, Maven, etc, they will all have user-oriented
> front ends
>> to increase user productivity. One obvious place is within
> their own
>> repository. The real question is about shared plugins, like
> the webapp
>> one, which would benefit Tomcat users as well as Cactus ones.
>>
>> Any idea?
>>
>> Note: There's no hurry. Just testing the water... :-)
>>
>> Thank you
>> -Vincent
>>
>



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Re: OT: Re: time for a Web services PMC? (was: Fw: spinning out projects (was: incubator project))

[Andrus Adamchik]

Hi, 

since http://db.apache.org/ is empty, is there another place to get more 
information? Like who is behind this effort? how can I help? any particular 
mailing list where the discussion is going? 


Andrus 



Nicola Ken Barozzi writes:

V. Cekvenich wrote:

I would like to see a DB PMC.


IIRC there is one, and it's in the initial phases.
The website is not ready yet http://db.apache.org/. 

Wanna help? :-) 

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrus Adamchik]

At 09:00 PM 10/20/2002 -0400, V. Cekvenich wrote:

Struts 1.1 has something called tiles that are can be used for re-use, and 
at run time a tile can be bound to different beans, and more advanced 
capabilities.
http://www.lifl.fr/~dumoulin/tiles/doc/tutorialBody.html
and an advanced PDF (in doco of basicPortal which uses tiles and else where).

Well, the fact that Tapestry is not JSP, allows it to do it in a more 
straightforward way, just like most other things you would need for the web 
app. Basically my experience is the following for doing most common web app 
operations:

...To do an average operation using
  [JSP]
 it takes X amount of custom code (plus it requires putting scripting 
code in template)
  [Struts]
 it takes 1.5X amount of custom code, but does not require scripting 
in the template
  [Tapestry]
 it takes 0.5X amount of custom code, does not require scripting in 
the template (and I can't measure the amount of reuse :-))


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http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/  -
Home of Cayenne - Object Relational Java Framework
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

[Andrus Adamchik]

At 11:29 AM 10/19/2002 -0700, John McNally wrote:

If a project is proposed that overlaps a (or a few) current project, I
just think the bar needs to be a bit higher for approval.  If someone
proposed another java regex package, I think many people would want to
see distinguishing features and even if a few existed, it should be
clear that it would be extremely difficult to add the functionality to
one of the current projects or an attempt has been made to work with one
of the current projects and the communities are incompatible.


You know, Tapestry in fact is different from your average JSP taglib. 
Anyone who had a chance to use component-based web frameworks (like 
WebObjects, I don't know any other in this category) would know what I am 
talking about. This is a  *different* and highly powerful and convenient 
way of doing things.

Surprisingly enough with so many webapplication layers out there, Tapestry 
seems to be the only one (OpenSource, that is) that allows you to create a 
set of reusable components and build the design around this. The level of 
reuse is unmatched with anything "JSP". In many ways it is even stronger 
then commercial implementation of the same design idea (WebObjects). In 
particular it makes it extremely easy for graphics designers to modify 
HTML, since dynamic content does not use *any* custom tags. Also the amount 
of code (and time) it takes to hook up an average model layer to the HTML 
presentation is so small that at first you may think you've missed 
something along the way :-).


I think one of the goals of jakarta is to create high quality
implementations of recognized standards and another is to try to create
standards where they do not formally exist by developing a high quality
technology that is able to become a defacto standard.


The standards offered by Tapestry are the ones worth pushing for wider 
acceptance. I understand this was the main motive behind the decision to 
offer it to Jakarta.

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http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/  -
Home of Cayenne - Object Relational Java Framework
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: New Subproject proposal Config4J

[Andrus Adamchik]

Any possibilities should be investigated, but I think this is hopeless. 
Oracle can probably do that legally. IANAL, but for the last year I've 
seen at least 4 or 5 Oracle open anti-Microsoft adds ranging from 
Oulook/Exchange problems to attacks on SQL server. Wording was similar.

I guess nobody questions the capabilities of Microsoft lawers :-).


Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> "Danny Angus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
>>did anyone else get this "sponsored link" on the google "jakarta" results
>>page?
>>
>>"Jakarta - Are your business web sites and J2EE applications Unbreakable?
>>www.oracle.com
>>FREE Oracle High Availability Middleware Strategy Guide!"
>>
>>
>>Looks like someone is trying to poach our "clients", perhaps we should
>>sponsor one back..
>>
>>"Oracle - Are your business web sites and J2EE applications Cost Effective?
>>http://jakarta.apache.org
>>FREE Java and J2EE Server Software from the Organisation that brought you
>>the Apache webserver"
> 
> 
> As this might be a reason of concern for copyright misuse, I'm forwarding
> your message to the ASF members list. I want to have some feedback from the
> other "owners" of the Apache name and see what they think about it...
> 
> Pier
> 

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http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/
email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org


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Re: Subproject Proposal - crossdb

[Andrus Adamchik]

Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro wrote:

> 
> I can imagine why people do their OR tool: because existing ones do not
> fulfill their necessities. In fact, that's what happened to me recently.

Exactly. I haven't seen a decent one so far (except for NeXT/Apple 
WebObjects). So if you want to compare O/R with text editors (like it 
was done before in this thread), imagine a world with "vi" and "notepad" 
  as the only 2 choices. Emacs and MS Word > 6.0 are yet to be invented.

> 
> Torque is nice, but you have to specify the database first in the XML.
> Usually, I prefer to code Java instead of XML. If it was the other way
> around, it would have been our primary choice. No flames please: different
> use cases call for different tools. Torque would have been perfect for a set
> of tables which you can define completely from the beginning, and make a few
> changes along the way. In our case, the set of tables was meant to grow and
> be expandable.

This doesn't have to be hard either way. On my last project with 
WebObjects, database have grown from 15 to 100 tables along the way (in 
about 9 month). With a simple 1 screen GUI tool and a built in class 
generator we *never* had problems synchronizing (or rather evolving) the 
code base. Products like WebObjects or Cayenne, though they internally 
work off of the model file (XML), still make your code easy to change. 
But of course this varies from product to product.


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Home of Cayenne - O/R Persistence Framework
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/
email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org


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Re: Open Source JDO Implementation??

[Andrus Adamchik]

Sale, Doug wrote:
>  :) 
> 
> but isn't there some way to map multiple results to a single object?  

Of course there is. In O/R speak it is called "uniquing". Basically, 
each object is identified by its "id" which is an encapsulation of its 
primary key values. This "id" would serve as a key to look up object in 
the memory cache. Every time a new fetch is done, and when O/R layer 
reads the ResultSet, it would use cached object if ResultSet row primary 
key values match an id of an already existsing object. In some cases, 
fetched row would be even thrown away all together if there is an 
existing matching object to improve performance.


can't
> an object be backed by a result set, so all results aren't in memory?

In most cases you would want to close the ResultSet to free database 
resources, while you still want to keep your objects. It looks like JDBC 
people also realize that. In particular, JDBC 3 (part of JSDK 1.4) 
introduced a disconnected RowSet. As far as cleaning extra objects goes, 
cache management is a topic of its own


~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
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Home of Cayenne - O/R Persistence Framework
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/
email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org


> 
>>-Original Message-
>>From: Andrus Adamchik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 10:09 PM
>>To: Jakarta General List
>>Subject: Re: Open Source JDO Implementation??
>>
>>
>>Actually this is not that simple. I don't remember how JDO 
>>handles it, 
>>but here is the general problem description. Within any O/R layer you 
>>would need to maintain a balance between 2 things - fresh data and 
>>caching for performance. Lets take a look at 2 extremes:
>>
>>
>>1. Objects data is never cached.
>>
>>Every time you need to read an object, a query needs to be 
>>issued to the 
>>database. This is bad for 2 reasons - speed (since database 
>>queries are 
>>relatively slow), exessive object creation. Every time 
>>somebody does a 
>>fetch from a table with 1 rows, 1 objects will be 
>>created. Next 
>>second the same user hits "search again" button and gets a new 1 
>>objects again. This new batch of objects is logically the 
>>same objects, 
>>since they represent the same database rows. But since we had 
>>no cache, 
>>we have to create them again, all 1 of them. Very slow
>>
>>2. Objects are always cached.
>>
>>There is an application-wide cache. Every time you need an 
>>object with a 
>>certain id, it is first looked up in the cache, and only if it is not 
>>there, it is being fetched from the database. Good for 
>>performance, but 
>>bad for everything else. Problems with this is large memory footprint 
>>(eventually you can suck the whole database in the cache), 
>>stale data. 
>>Stale data is the worst of the two. Especially when the database is 
>>being updated externally via SQL or from other applications (which is 
>>the case in 99% of real life scenarious).
>>
>>
>>
>>A balanced O/R layer would have some sort of combination of the two 
>>abovementioned approaches. It would maintain the cache, 
>>expire it when 
>>needed (very non-trivial task in fact), and also would give user an 
>>opportunity to explicitly bypass the cache. IMHO if this problem 
>>(caching vs. fresh data) is solved properly, O/R way would rule the 
>>world :-). State of the art now is pretty close via different 
>>optimization techniques, etc. but there is still lots of 
>>mileage to cover.
>>
>


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Re: FW:

[Andrus Adamchik]

I don't know of this particular case, but this raises is an interesting 
point. When doing XML publishing with Anakia (using vi to type the text 
:-)), typos are unavoidable.

I wonder if there are any Java spellcheckers out there that have 
acceptable licensing terms. Such a spellchecker could be integrated with 
Anakia, to generate spelling warnings during the build. This could be a 
very nice enhancement.

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~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
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Home of Cayenne - O/R Persistence Framework
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/
email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org



Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> Not acknowledged
> 
> Pier
> 
> -- Forwarded Message
> From: "Maher, Dan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 11:16:32 -0600
> To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 
> hate to nitpick, but a misspelling on the Jakarta site might in a small way,
> affect its adoption. This is from the Jetspeed page:
> 
> "The term "Portal" was created that described a Web Application that was
> designed to present a ton of information in a consise and centered way"
> 
> Concise, not consise
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>Daniel Maher
>>Software Engineer - Sprint PCS/IT
>>Application Development Solution Center - Nashville TN
>>615-341-7814 (Voice)
>>615-341-7684 (Fax)
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Open Source JDO Implementation??

[Andrus Adamchik]

Jakarta General Newsgroup (@Basebeans.com) wrote:
> Subject: Re: Open Source JDO Implementation??
> From: Vic Cekvenich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  ===
> DB performance depends (among other things) on SQL execution path chosen 
> by the optimizer. A SQL command string can be customized to optimize 
> that SQL and have it "force" it to go a cretain way on joins. If you 
> have a complex joing with many tables, this is a critical performance 
> that can impact it order of magnitude. Sometimes propriatory, sometime 
> stored procedures. Each extra join can be exponential. (Some clients do 
> 16 way joins, no lie)
> So the level of abstraction will be expensive here. If DB is the 
> bottleneck, than you need to be "closer to the metal".


If it comes to this level (optimizing joins for the target db by hand), 
you are better off writing a database view or a stored procedure, and 
still preserve object abstraction in your java code. This would allow 
painless migration between the databases (for Java developers that is, 
for database people it is always
painful) , as well as make life
easier for the next guy coming in after you left the project.

> On the design side, you can't model certain things like employes and 
> managers. 
(Manager is an employee, therfore a self join).


I didn't know JDO was so limited. Any O/R framework that has 
relationships would allow that.


Or corletaed,
> or outer join, or unions, etc.
> So bad deisgn.
> 
> My conculsion is that JDO is ok for small and simple but for large sites 
> with lots of users, pass. A application designer, must spend some time 
> matching business requirments, volumes, etc. to the physical design of 
> the db).  Now if you have small DB with few users, JDO is OK.


> 
> Roll your own DAO works better (I do O/R with Java Beans (never EJB) 
> sometimes contain other beans that have a rowset.) WIth Java Beans, I 
> have a level of abstraction to the physical db (coded in Java and not 
> XML).

Yes, programming in XML is bad, but still having it as a glue between 
the parts is unavoidable these days :-).


> On the Sun home page for JDO it says "developers do not need to know 
> SQL". Not all the developer need to know it, but someplace someone needs 
> to know it.

That is so true. If you don't provide a way around your object layer (or 
rather find a sinergy between O/R layer and raw SQL execution)  then the 
O/R it is pretty much useless.


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http://objectstyle.org
email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: Open Source JDO Implementation??

[Andrus Adamchik]

Actually this is not that simple. I don't remember how JDO handles it, 
but here is the general problem description. Within any O/R layer you 
would need to maintain a balance between 2 things - fresh data and 
caching for performance. Lets take a look at 2 extremes:


1. Objects data is never cached.

Every time you need to read an object, a query needs to be issued to the 
database. This is bad for 2 reasons - speed (since database queries are 
relatively slow), exessive object creation. Every time somebody does a 
fetch from a table with 1 rows, 1 objects will be created. Next 
second the same user hits "search again" button and gets a new 1 
objects again. This new batch of objects is logically the same objects, 
since they represent the same database rows. But since we had no cache, 
we have to create them again, all 1 of them. Very slow

2. Objects are always cached.

There is an application-wide cache. Every time you need an object with a 
certain id, it is first looked up in the cache, and only if it is not 
there, it is being fetched from the database. Good for performance, but 
bad for everything else. Problems with this is large memory footprint 
(eventually you can suck the whole database in the cache), stale data. 
Stale data is the worst of the two. Especially when the database is 
being updated externally via SQL or from other applications (which is 
the case in 99% of real life scenarious).



A balanced O/R layer would have some sort of combination of the two 
abovementioned approaches. It would maintain the cache, expire it when 
needed (very non-trivial task in fact), and also would give user an 
opportunity to explicitly bypass the cache. IMHO if this problem 
(caching vs. fresh data) is solved properly, O/R way would rule the 
world :-). State of the art now is pretty close via different 
optimization techniques, etc. but there is still lots of mileage to cover.


~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
Home of Cayenne - O/R Persistence Framework
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/
email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org


Sale, Doug wrote:
> how so?
> 
> doug :)
>
>>>>Note JDO are not scalable nd only simple. 
>>>
>>>I know this isn't the place to discuss this,
>>>but couldn't resist asking for the reasons
>>>supporting this assertion.
>>
>>Without caching, they lead to excessive object creation.
>>
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> 


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Re: Open Source JDO Implementation??

[Andrus Adamchik]

Bruce Buttles wrote:
> Does anyone know of an open source JDO (Java Data Objects)
> implementation?
> 
> I know of a number of great Object-Relational mapping tools but
> none that are JDO compliant.

Being one of the authors of "non-JDO-compliant" object relational tool 
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/ , I looked at the possibility to make 
Cayenne a JDO implementation. But the situation here is rather similar 
to EJB - you can either have a persistence layer that works now or have 
a "standard-compliant" one.

1 year ago when I last checked, spec was rather raw and only "kinda 
worked", so we decided to go with our own design. Of course we could've 
chosen the hard way and join JCP in hope that we can make a difference, 
but as usual developers have a "personal itch" and can't wait till it is 
"scratched" via standards :-).


> I know JDO is still pretty new ... but the spec looks pretty
> cool.
> Also, I haven't seen any Apache activity around this yet.
> 
> All the JDO Implementations I've found (except that in Sun's Forte)
> are either NOT free ... or free for "Non-Commercial" use.
> 
> Anyone have some insight for me on this?
> Is there an Apache project out there for JDO that maybe I've
> overlooked?
> 
> Thanks!
> -Bruce
>

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Re: Managing versions of Apache Jakarta software

[Andrus Adamchik]

I hear you. And I think I understand pretty well ;-). Therefore I was 
looking at your project as an example how this should be done in Java 
world.


Guillaume Rousse wrote:
> 
> Curiously in java world, packager work is generaly is at best 
> misunderstood, often ignored, or even seen with some hostility from 
> developpers.


> 
> But the result is here: jpackage project covers today more than a hundred of 
> different java projects. See http://jpackage.sourceforge.net for complete 
> list.
> 


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Re: Managing versions of Apache Jakarta software

[Andrus Adamchik]

Danny Angus wrote:
>>There was a discussion about an enterprise distribution of jakarta and
>>other open-source java technologies some time back on this list that
>>resulted in starting "oed" project on SourceForge [which is pretty much
>>dead at the moment :-( ].
> 
> 
> Which may suggest that there's more to solving this problem than meets the
> eye..

You got it, this is one of the main reasons.

> I'm nervous about tackling it because I think that it would take a massive
> effort to gain the kind of acceptance it would need to be worthwhile..
> on the other hand.. how does RPM work? Personally I'm the impatient
> "configure-make-make install"  guy mentioned in the README files ;-)

RPM is neat and extremly clean and easy way to maintain software. This 
is what you get for all the tremendous work done by package creators. It 
maintains a central repository of packages installed and their 
dependencies. Unlike Windows registry it doesn't allow arbitrary garbage 
written to repository (AFAIK), it just uses it for package tracking. All 
you need to know as a user is a few switches to the RPM command:

rpm -i (install)
rpm -e (erase)
rpm -U (update)
rpm -V (verify)

Task of a package creator is harder. (Here is a link with detailed 
information : http://www.rpm.org/max-rpm/ ). In short (in reality it is 
rather hard) package creators need to get sources, convert 
"configure-make-make install" into a special RPM spec for a target 
platform, build it into RPM.

Implementing the same thing in Java should be easier.  As with RPM there 
are same 3 roles involved that need to be supported (user, developer, 
packager). The goal is to make "user" tasks as easy as with RPM, while 
making "packager" task much easier, bringing it down to creating a 
simple XML spec. It helps that in Java, you don't need to compile 
sources for different platforms. Getting a distribution that includes 
JARs is enough. Also, I am pretty sure there is lots of sinergy with 
Ant, so many things do not need to be implemented from scratch.

I've been holding this idea for a while since you won't find volunteers 
to help unless you lead such an effort and get it at least to beta, and 
I am very busy with Cayenne as it is right now. But I would happily 
participate as a developer, provided someone would take a lead.


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Re: Managing versions of Apache Jakarta software

[Andrus Adamchik]

Danny Angus wrote:
> Should, perhaps, Jakarta be using our hard fought success with JSPA to propose a JSR 
>defining an installation API that would address dependancy management in a cohesive 
>way?
> 
> It seems to me that dependancy handling in Java as a whole, not just here, has been 
>left to fate rather than engineering, I have installed, on this machine, JDK 1.3 and 
>1.4 from Sun other developers will also have IBM's JVM installed as well, yet when I 
>install JBuilder it installs its own JDK as well, and there are other products that 
>do likewise. To me this is an indication that the extent of dependancy management 
>problems is so great that sellers of commercial products cannot even reliably assume 
>compatibility between minor versions of the JDK, let alone third party components. I 
>would have thought that ought to concern anyone who's livelihood depends upon Java.
> Its all very well Java being "platform independant" but it really ought to provide a 
>framework for dependacy management too, after all it is in effect an operating system 
>(albeit more of an emulator) and library management should be a service provided by 
>the os (IMO), and as producers of a range of interdependant products Jakarta is in 
>dire need of this (again IMHO).
> 

This is so true that Java needs a real dependency management standard. 
While I agree that work on a JSR is maybe the way to go on a long run, I 
think the actual implementation should start regardless of JSR existence.

There was a discussion about an enterprise distribution of jakarta and 
other open-source java technologies some time back on this list that 
resulted in starting "oed" project on SourceForge [which is pretty much 
dead at the moment :-( ]. Doing some preliminary research in this 
direction led me to the same conclusion - Java is an "OS-like" creature 
and therefore needs a package manager (registry, whatever).

I was thinking more along the lines of an RPM-like system. It can still 
be ant-driven, but main effort should be put into dependency tracking 
framework. As far as JAR versioning goes, 
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/guide/extensions/versioning.html can 
be used, but there is much more. For instance you may want to install 
documentation or sample applications, etc. together with a package. So 
just dropping right version of  .jar in .../lib/ext may not solve all 
the problems. I was thinking about packaging similar to what folks at 
http://www.jpackage.org/ do, but making it in Java. This is a fairly big 
effort, but AFAIK this is the biggest piece currently missing from the 
"Java puzzle".

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Open Enterprise Distribution [project update]

[Andrus Adamchik]

Followup of a recent discussion about open java development platform 
(Open Enterprise Distribution).

Project registration went through on sourceforge (project name is 
"oed"). Link to the project page is http://sourceforge.net/projects/oed/

There is a developer list setup at [EMAIL PROTECTED]

My plans for this project is to build it upon real use cases. Use some 
of my current and future projects to create an environment 
(distribution) that is usable by others.

I envision that it will move rather slowly right now due to the current 
work overload. Unless of course there will be volunteers to help. Which 
is rather unlikely at the moment, since volunteers appear when the 
project base is defined and project is active and popular.


Cheers
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Recasting Apache license

[Andrus Adamchik]

License question.

I am going to recast standard Apache license to change the definitions 
of copyright holders to our project team. Now, the problem is that the 
project site, objectstyle.org , is not an officially registered 
foundation like Apache. Can it be a copyright holder? Is this legally 
binding to anyone? I can't just put my name on it, since it was a 
collaborative work of a group of developers.

Any suggestions how to handle situations like that?


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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrus Adamchik]

acoliver wrote:
> I think this would be less contentious then you think.  Basically if you add
> the *oh the power of those who do* principal then you'll probably get some
> list chatter but just say "are you volunteering" and they'll nearly
> immediately shutup. 
+1

  If you get two volunteers in the same area then its
> quite simple: you have an alternative which will make for a better
> distribution anyhow!  (You'll have the opportunity to develop better
> interfaces and coupling etc in the "distribution" or "platform")...  
> 
> 



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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrus Adamchik]

Tim Hyde wrote:
> Perhaps one thing that could be sensibly done is to strengthen the packaging
> and market visibility of the things in the Jakarta family ? A great deal of
> pre-selection has already been done, and there is already a project name -
> Jakarta. 'Jakarta Development Kit' might not be the best proposal, but there
> again ...

I haven't suggested this myself since I had a feeling that the project 
must materialize first before anybody would vote +1 to make it Jakarta. 
There was also a "borg" concern. I think you address it well in the next 
paragraph.

> 
> There needn't be any intention on 'family' grounds to exclude any other
> toolset that was seen to be useful, but I can't quite get my head round the
> difficulties of choosing candidates or the weakness of too much dilution.
> Again, these are things that Jakarta has inherently worked through.
> 
> Does this make the proposal any more practical ? Are there serious areas
> which Jakarta is missing ?

We are seeing now the main problem here: getting a consensus on what to 
include. For instance I would offer Cayenne ( 
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/ ) as a data layer and o/r mapping tool 
for this project, someone else would offer Torque or Osage, etc.

Maybe this needs to be organized by use case. For example we have a use 
case : "writing a database aware web application". Say a bug tracking 
system. Volunteers working on the OED project make design proposals. One 
(or maybe 2 or 3 that are chosen) are used to implement such a system 
(or a prototype of such system to cut on time). Implementations are done 
in a way separating OED part from custom code so that. By evaluating 
custom code and what it takes to write and maintain it we may be coming 
  with a winner combination.

I mentioned bug tracking since I started one such system now to evaluate 
Cayenne. I will start doing it in such a "OED format" fashion to see 
what comes out.

Also Somebody donating existing end user projects for such a case study 
would speed up things a lot.


> Perhaps one of the more useful things we might be able to add are design
> papers un-biassed by the issues of market orthodoxies - even to the extent
> of pointing out areas where the Jakarta technologies aren't the best. Or is
> that getting too altruistic ?-)

This is a good idea, but this is a different issue. I was thinking more 
of a package with documentation rather then a paper on how to write apps.


> - Tim




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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrus Adamchik]

Tim Hyde wrote:
> Andrus,
> 
> I'm 100% behind the idea of the complete platform, but I'm worried that your
> proposal talks about 'Web Applications'.
> 
> I believe that what's needed is an alternative to the very idea that J2EE
> (or even J2SE) is *the* definitive collection of java libraries, and that
> the project should offering a number of sensible alternatives for use in any
> architecture.

We still will depend on certain commercial JVM's (Sun or IBM), right?



> Database access, Logging, and Development Process are three things that
> you've specifically mentioned that aren't particularly Web or Server
> oriented.
> 
> Web Applications, or Server Applications, are more part of today's 'fashion'
> than inherent categories of how you make a computing solution, and we can
> expect things to move on during the lifetime of Java. Well, we can hope,
> anyway. :-)

You are right. I was mentioning Web applications just cause I wanted to 
limit initial scope to something sane. And I guess because I am myself 
is a better expert in this area then in any other. This would've helped 
to concentrate on a certain solution-based approach from the beginning. 
But I agree we can widen the scope as long as we can outline the 
problems being solved.

> 
> So, if possible, why not talk about a 'development and deployment platform
> for Java applications' - and then start off by assembling both the
> underlying 'component' toolsets and a number of combination-examples, such
> as the jGuru one Ted mentioned, and whatever else might emerge during the
> project as perhaps 'miniature live examples'.

+1, like I said above, I am for it if we define use cases we are going 
after.


> Naturally, server applications are the primary interest point initially, but
> it would be nice to think that the collection of tools being provided for
> distribution would be offered as having wide applicability.
> 
> In particular, I believe that if a thing like this is available *and gets
> marketed* (in the Red Hat sense) properly, we could start to see the
> weakening of the Dilbert idea that only vendor-supplied products are
> 'serious' tools.
> 
> This *marketing* focus is the very thing I had settled on as being the
> logical conclusion of the recent threads (J2EE considered harmful, EJB=Bad,
> etc). A way to bring the marketplace to see that there are better
> alternatives than the Dark Lords. Hence the marketing side (meaning actual
> activity to spread the word and work in PR mode with the media) needs to be
> a vital part of this project, needing volunteers of a different sort than
> technicians.
> 
> But assembling the distribution first is very important, and I'm with you on
> this.

yes, this should be the starting point

> 
> One small extra: if a RedHat style toolkit distribution were available, the
> number of independent consultants who could offer their support services
> would exceed the number available to BEA, for example, eliminating that
> argument that 'I buy where I can depend on getting support'. Well, we can
> dream, anyway.

+1. I am an independent consultant myself, and I would stick with a 
technology that
- allows me to concentrate on customer requirements rather then 
repetitive coding tasks,
- offers strong design direction,
- implemented most of the standard tasks already.

The only thing that would prevent me from using such technology is that 
customer's CIO has never read about it in JDJ.

> 
> I had been considering a project along these lines, and had thought of the
> name 'Tonic', both because it might revive a sickening architecture and
> because the Tonic (in musical terms) is where you want to go after the
> Dominant :-)
> 
> But, if OED is the same thing, yes, what's in a name ? But, think marketing
> eventually !!

I like the name Tonic, but I think Open Enterprise Distribution may 
actually serve that same marketing goal better. It does sound ..umm.. 
serious or something :-)

.
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrus Adamchik]

Meaningful names are OK with me too :-) . Suggested versions revolve 
around Enterprise Distribution idea. I personally like "Open Enterprise 
Distribution", with OED acronym used interchangebly. I will register SF 
project under this name and let everybody know when the registration 
goes through.



Bill Barnhill wrote:
> How about a (semi?)-catchy name and a meaningful name--
> Open Distribution for the Enterprise -- ODE
> 
> Just my two cents,
> Bill Barnhill
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 11:32 AM
> Subject: Re: The Complete Server Platform?
> 
> 
> 
>>Open Enterprise Distribution ...  I'm bigger into descriptive names that
>>mean something when they don't cause lawsuits...
>>
>>:-)
>>
>>You asked...  What's in a name?
>>
>>-Andy
>> 


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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrus Adamchik]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 12:42, Andrus Adamchik wrote
>>This is exactly why I think setting up a separate project would be a 
>>good idea. A project that would realize the concept of a platform that 
>>uses open tools (as opposed to jakarta-only tools). Though of course it 
>>will most likely be 70-80% Jakarta based.
>
> 
> +1  -- I think eventually it could be brought to Jakarta if it was
> successful

I am ready to setup a project on SourceForge. Any name suggestions? How 
about "Fusion"? Kind of on topic, though sounds like ColdFusion.

When the name is decided upon we can transfer this discussion to 
SourceForge, though I of course have a lot of hope that this community 
will be interested enough to provide input. Especially since this 
project is not so much about coding, but rather architecture.

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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrus Adamchik]

Ted Husted wrote:
>
> My concern would be that this promotes a "We are Borg" attitude.
> 

This is exactly why I think setting up a separate project would be a 
good idea. A project that would realize the concept of a platform that 
uses open tools (as opposed to jakarta-only tools). Though of course it 
will most likely be 70-80% Jakarta based.


Here is a draft of proposed project description:
---

Project XYZ (replace with a catchy name :-)) is dedicated to creation of 
development and deployment platform for Java web applications. It is 
based on other open technologies. Each one of such technologies 
specializes in a certain area of web application building, such as XML, 
HTML creation, database access, logging, Java development process 
support, etc. Project XYZ is a fusion of these technologies into a Java 
server solution that covers all parts of the spectrum. Also it 
introduces extensions (... need to be defined ...).

Other project goals are:

- to create a lower entry barrier for web application developers to use 
state of the art technology by providing a single full solution "that works"
- to realize our vision of the best design and development practices
- 


Project goals are NOT:

- to set the only acceptable way of doing things in Java
- to reduce the importance of technologies that are not in the core of 
XYZ project

---


Here is a comparison to show why such a project is needed and why this 
is a good thing. Take Linux example. How many people in the world could 
take kernel code and GNU compiler and make a system that even boots? 
With the emergence of companies like RedHat, people received this 
missing piece - packaging. It was at least as important as kernel code 
itself. And RedHat is not the only way to package Linux, so nobody 
really thinks that RedHat "stole Linux".

I think here we have a similar situation - full platform solution will 
make life easier for many people, while no harm will be done to the 
foundation projects and their alternatives.
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrus Adamchik]

It is interesting that I made a similar proposal (or rather described 
the same idea) just yesterday on an unrelated mailing list, with the 
normal excuse of being too busy right now to start working in this 
direction ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/webobjects/message/45867 ). I 
guess the idea is just flying in the air :-)


> 
> Why It Doesn't Happen
> 
> ...is also pretty straightforward. Individual developers
> work on the various Jakarta projects because they have an
> immediate, specific need for the project they're working
> on. So that's what they do.
> There isn't enough people around devoting energy to
> inter-project communication to get an integration project
> underway
true, even though I am not a Jakarta committer, I am in a similar 
situation with my own project.

> 
> What To Do
> 
> 1) as proposed before, a separate (from general) mailinglist
> dedicated to general discussion. Sharing thoughts should
> develop into sharing code every so often.

agreed.

> 2) a statement of intent in important places on the website.
> I'm guessing that putting "we would like to see tomcat
> integrate with avalon" on the projects' respective websites
> would mean that such will happen sooner.


Maybe this doesn't even have to be supported by individual Jakarta 
projects. Rather there can be a separate project with its own 
participants. Setting up a mailing list would help to keep design going. 
And after (if) a viable design/vision results from it, a project can be 
setup in CVS to start this big scale jakarta integration and writing any 
missing extensions.

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Re: ApacheCon news

[Andrus Adamchik]

Could anyone who attended ApacheCon in the past (or was a speaker) could 
share his/her experience. What kind of crowd is gathering there? From 
the session list from previous years it looks like the conference may 
entice a geek or two.


jean-frederic clere wrote:
> Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> 
> I have forwarded it to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Ken suggests everyone should forward it to the appropriate lists ;-)
> 
> 
>>Pier
>>
> 
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RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Andrus Adamchik]

At 09:11 PM 1/31/2002 +0100, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>  (1) Not using that kind of layer does NOT mean that you have to
>  concatenate Strings;

Yes, am pretty sure there are ways to make life easier with SQL, sorry for 
bad comparison.

See, despite all of the skepticism about O/R mechanisms, I believe in this 
approach for one reason - I used a good O/R tool for major development for 
about 4 years now. I am talking about WebObjects. I believe this was the 
first application server out there (I think before even the term was 
coined). Now it lives in a relative obscurity since NeXT (the inventor of 
it) was bought by Apple, and Apple has no reputation for "enterprise" 
solutions.

The bottom line here is that developer productivity goes up significantly. 
Code produced is incomparably easier to understand and maintain. And 
performance price is not that big (definitely not comparable to the impact 
EJB would make).


>  (2) The use of Javabeans is abused.

Totally agree. Still does not make this pattern bad. One use is a transport 
mechanism for data between the application parts. Clean and easy to understand.

 Sorry for an OT post, this J2EE licensing discussion got a bit off hand.

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RE: J2EE considered harmful

[Andrus Adamchik]

At 12:36 PM 1/31/2002 -0500, Steve Downey wrote:
>EJB also brings to the table all of the problems of the Object/Relational
>impedance mismatch. It's an empirical fact at this point that rows in a
>table are bad objects. They're data, and have no behavior. Turning them into
>objects with container managed persistence doesn't make them good objects.
>Objects are composed out of many rows spanning several tables. That's hard
>to do with CMP.
>
>Just my $0.02.

Well, if EJB (or others) are doing it wrong, it doesn't mean that Object 
Relational approach is bad. I agree that objects mapped straight to the 
rows one to one are not of much use by themselves. But they provide 
something that you will need to build your less fine grained objects, 
namely *persistence transparency*. By the same token you can say that any 
objects that use Java Bean pattern are useless, since all they have is get 
and set methods.

But well, some people may like to concatenate SQL strings every time they 
want to get some data written or read to/from the database. The keyword 
here is "productivity".


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- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org
list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

[Andrus Adamchik]

At 08:58 PM 1/30/2002 -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>I'd rather see someone come up with an opensource standard that achieves
>the goals of EJBs without being limited by its faulty design and
>backward compatibility with its original faultier design.  Just my
>humble opinion on that.


Couldn't agree more. Any ideas on how to make such an Open Source standard 
a "standard" in a sense that it would be accepted by the IT community as 
way to do things? Maybe some kind of a Standard Committee under apache and 
a working reference implementation based on one of the existing projects?


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- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org
list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: Groupware Website Recommendations

[Andrus Adamchik]

Ted,

I set up a similar environment for my own OS project at 
http://objectstyle.org . I never thought of offering this commercially, but 
so far it worked great for our small team. What we have is CVS via SSH, 
mailing lists and mail accounts for developers (if you have your own 
domain, this can be handled as well), web server, nightly backups.

This proved to be a great collaborative environment. The only thing that is 
missing I guess is bug tracker. I was reluctant to install software like 
bugzilla on a production host.

I am not sure what you mean by reasonable price. If you could provide some 
details of your project, we may do it for free. Note that we probably can't 
support a high volume download site though, but for development 
collaborative environment we have enough horsepower.

Cheers



At 12:46 PM 1/11/2002 -0500, Ted Husted wrote:
>I'm working on an (unrelated) projects with some people, and wouldn't
>mind setting up an Apache-style collaborative environment.
>
>Just wondering if anyone has any personal recommendations for
>
>+ A free groupware host, with calendar, mail-list/BBS, file upload that
>sort of thing.
>
>I know there are several but wondered if someone was using one they
>liked.
>
>+ A private, fee-based sourceforge, where someone could collaborate on a
>private software project (I guess sourceforge may go fee-based, but I
>was wondering about someone who was already doing it).
>
>Of course, any place where you could setup some mailing lists and a CVS
>might work for the second. Just wondered if anyone was already doing
>that successfully for a reasonable price.
>
>
>-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
>-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
>-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
>-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/
>
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~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org
list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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