Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Stefano Mazzocchi]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> 
> on 1/4/02 4:20 PM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > They aren't even comparable, are they?
>
> Of course not.

No, I agree, I was just teasing :)
 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/dvsl/
> 
> When DVSL is integrated into Turbine's presentation layer and people are
> using it, the comparison will definitely be Cocoon2 vs. Turbine.

Uh, cool, let me take a look...

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
  able to give birth to a dancing star.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche




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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/4/02 7:38 PM, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> on 1/4/02 4:20 PM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> They aren't even comparable, are they?
> 
> Of course not.
> 
>   http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/dvsl/
> 
> When DVSL is integrated into Turbine's presentation layer and people are
> using it, the comparison will definitely be Cocoon2 vs. Turbine.
> 
> -jon
> 

Certainly!  But that's a whole other kettle of fish :)

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"Now what do we do?"


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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 1/4/02 4:20 PM, "Geir Magnusson Jr." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> They aren't even comparable, are they?

Of course not.

http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/dvsl/

When DVSL is integrated into Turbine's presentation layer and people are
using it, the comparison will definitely be Cocoon2 vs. Turbine.

-jon


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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/4/02 6:58 PM, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> "Craig R. McClanahan" wrote:
>> 
>> On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>> 
 
 - Sam Ruby
 
 P.S.  Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml
 and Jakarta?  Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot.
 Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we?
>>> 
>>> +1 on the principle of merging Jakarta and XML.
>> 
>> Agreed that it's definitely worth looking at.
>> 
>>> However, you realize
>>> there are technical considerations such as the look and fell of the
>>> merged web-site.
>> 
>> Sheesh ... just when I was starting to think that *nothing* could top the
>> rancor of arguing about coding conventions ... :-)
> 
> Yeah, Anakia vs. Cocoon2 would be a fun pissing contest to watch :) NOT!

They aren't even comparable, are they?

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin



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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Peter Donald]

On Sat, 5 Jan 2002 03:34, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Ted Husted wrote:
> > What would also help, I think, would be if we published more of our
> > statistics. I know Vincent was working on a download stats page once.
> > I've also seen people post interesting statistics about the posts to the
> > mailing lists. A snapshot of how many commits are being made and number
> > of unique committers making them would also be interesting. And other
> > things, I'm sure.
> >
> > Now, if I only had the faintest idea of how to automate something like
> > this ...
>
> Stefano, I and others are working on this.
>
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-apache-general&m=100857962129228&w=2
> http://www.apache.org/~stefano/forrest/1.5/

woohooo

> P.S.  Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml
> and Jakarta?

+1

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

Duct tape is like the force.  It has a light side, and a dark side, and
it binds the universe together ...
-- Carl Zwanzig

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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Stefano Mazzocchi]

Sam Ruby wrote:
> 
> Ted Husted wrote:
> >
> > What would also help, I think, would be if we published more of our
> > statistics. I know Vincent was working on a download stats page once.
> > I've also seen people post interesting statistics about the posts to the
> > mailing lists. A snapshot of how many commits are being made and number
> > of unique committers making them would also be interesting. And other
> > things, I'm sure.
> >
> > Now, if I only had the faintest idea of how to automate something like
> > this ...
> 
> Stefano, I and others are working on this.
> 
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-apache-general&m=100857962129228&w=2
> http://www.apache.org/~stefano/forrest/1.5/
> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> P.S.  Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml
> and Jakarta?  Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot.
> Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we?

I fully resonate with this: I have *always* hated projects as
containers. I think Tomcat is a project, not Jakarta. I think Xerces is
a project not XML (which conflicts with XML the language).

In the future, I would simply love to see

 www.apache.org/tomcat

go along with 

 www.apache.org/httpd

and a good software map to tell the story, indicate the overlap, outline
those distinctions and so on.

It would also remove the need for PMCs and give the ASF board a reason
to exist.

The reason question is: could we stand the heat of a [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mail list?

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
  able to give birth to a dancing star.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche




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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Stefano Mazzocchi]

"Craig R. McClanahan" wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> 
> > >
> > >- Sam Ruby
> > >
> > >P.S.  Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml
> > >and Jakarta?  Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot.
> > >Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we?
> >
> > +1 on the principle of merging Jakarta and XML.
> 
> Agreed that it's definitely worth looking at.
> 
> > However, you realize
> > there are technical considerations such as the look and fell of the
> > merged web-site.
> 
> Sheesh ... just when I was starting to think that *nothing* could top the
> rancor of arguing about coding conventions ... :-)

Yeah, Anakia vs. Cocoon2 would be a fun pissing contest to watch :) NOT!

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
  able to give birth to a dancing star.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche




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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/4/02 12:39 PM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Here's a concrete example to illustrate the issue: I've always been under
> the assumption that at some point a few people in Jakarta land would take a
> sustained interest in contributing code to Gump, at which point, I would
> propose it to be a formal subproject.  At the present time, it looks like
> there is a greater possibility of interest of contributing by people in XML
> land.  This lead to a bit of soul searching, and I came to conclusion that
> if that were to come to pass, I would follow the community.  After all,
> what does it really matter whether the code is jakarta-gump or
> xml-whatever?


Funny.  I've been waiting for it to become a top level project (or at least
an Alexandrai project :)


-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
You're going to end up getting pissed at your software
anyway, so you might as well not pay for it. Try Open Source.



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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 12:39 04.01.2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>>
>> +1 on the principle of merging Jakarta and XML. However, you realize
>> there are technical considerations such as the look and fell of the
>> merged web-site. More importantly, what would be the scope of the merged
>> XML+Jakarta?
>
>The more important question is what is the community model.  As the XML
>bylaws are clones of the Jakarta ones, I would venture to say that they are
>fairly compatible.
>
>> How should we call the combined project? ApacheGrabBag? SourceForgeII?
>
>Jakarta.
>
>[Note: answer above is merely to show that the proposal is not a serious
>one]
>
>One thing I would like people to think about.  I see viceral reaction at
>times to putting things in commons.  Or in Avalon/Turbine/Struts, etc.  And
>often there is lengthy debates about whether something belongs in Jakarta
>or not.  Yet, curiously, there seems to be little consideration as to
>whether something belongs in Apache or not.
>
>How many people here know what the Apache board does?

Yah, they have cocktails, go to the beach and barbecue.

>Here's a concrete example to illustrate the issue: I've always been under
>the assumption that at some point a few people in Jakarta land would take a
>sustained interest in contributing code to Gump, at which point, I would
>propose it to be a formal subproject.  

What? Contribute to Gump to make it more powerful and nagging? I rather 
iron my old shirts before scratching that itch.  Is it possible that Gump
is complete such that no one has anything valuable left to contribute?

>At the present time, it looks like
>there is a greater possibility of interest of contributing by people in XML
>land.  This lead to a bit of soul searching, and I came to conclusion that
>if that were to come to pass, I would follow the community.  After all,
>what does it really matter whether the code is jakarta-gump or
>xml-whatever?

Go for it. 


--
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RE: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Gerhard Froehlich]

Hi



>Here's a concrete example to illustrate the issue: I've always been under
>the assumption that at some point a few people in Jakarta land would take a
>sustained interest in contributing code to Gump, at which point, I would
>propose it to be a formal subproject.  At the present time, it looks like
>there is a greater possibility of interest of contributing by people in XML
>land.  This lead to a bit of soul searching, and I came to conclusion that
>if that were to come to pass, I would follow the community.  After all,
>what does it really matter whether the code is jakarta-gump or
>xml-whatever?

Yep it matters because that's mixing of concerns. As an Avalon Committer I 
only say three words: Separation of Concerns :-)!

Beside there is lot of "inoffical" co-operation. Look at Cocoon and Avalon.
Devs in this project are working close together in technical issues though
the project aim is completly different.

I think you should leave the current diversification. Otherwise I see the 
danger that the xml-apache group is forced completely towards Java. But
that's not the aim of XML!

And when we soften Jakarta so that C++ (personally nothing against C)
servers could be possible as subprojects or whatever then we even 
could put everything under www.apache.org and in one mailing list ;)!

I know it's hard for us, but try to think as a guy from a entprise 
sales group ;-).

Just thoughts!

  Gerhard


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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Ted Husted]

Sam Ruby wrote:
> The more important question is what is the community model.  As the XML
> bylaws are clones of the Jakarta ones, I would venture to say that they are
> fairly compatible.

What about TCL then? 

I wouldn't actually care if there is one umbrella project or six. But it
seemed like the ASF was trying to organize things along platform lines. 

Should we think about merging with PHP too?

Should there actually be umbrella Apache Projects at all?

Maybe having proved ourselves, perhaps each product should now stand on
its own, as the HTTP Server does. And there would be one PMC for them
all.

Again, don't care. Just asking. 




> How many people here know what the Apache board does?

I used to read the minutes, but they've gotten hard to find. 

Perhaps they should be posted to the Committer list. 



> Here's a concrete example to illustrate the issue: I've always been under
> the assumption that at some point a few people in Jakarta land would take a
> sustained interest in contributing code to Gump, at which point, I would
> propose it to be a formal subproject.  At the present time, it looks like
> there is a greater possibility of interest of contributing by people in XML
> land.  This lead to a bit of soul searching, and I came to conclusion that
> if that were to come to pass, I would follow the community.  After all,
> what does it really matter whether the code is jakarta-gump or
> xml-whatever?

Perhaps if it were over here, then there would be more cross-pollination
between projects. 

Likewise with having things like POI in XML land, that Jartian products
might use. 


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/

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RE: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Scott Sanders]

> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> One thing I would like people to think about.  I see viceral 
> reaction at times to putting things in commons.  Or in 
> Avalon/Turbine/Struts, etc.  And often there is lengthy 
> debates about whether something belongs in Jakarta or not.  
> Yet, curiously, there seems to be little consideration as to 
> whether something belongs in Apache or not.

Agreed.

> 
> How many people here know what the Apache board does?

:)

> 
> Here's a concrete example to illustrate the issue: I've 
> always been under the assumption that at some point a few 
> people in Jakarta land would take a sustained interest in 
> contributing code to Gump, at which point, I would propose it 
> to be a formal subproject.  At the present time, it looks 
> like there is a greater possibility of interest of 
> contributing by people in XML land.  This lead to a bit of 
> soul searching, and I came to conclusion that if that were to 
> come to pass, I would follow the community.  After all, what 
> does it really matter whether the code is jakarta-gump or 
> xml-whatever?

You should *always* follow the community.  The community gives life to
the codebase.

Scott

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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Ceki Gülcü wrote:

> >
> >- Sam Ruby
> >
> >P.S.  Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml
> >and Jakarta?  Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot.
> >Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we?
>
> +1 on the principle of merging Jakarta and XML.

Agreed that it's definitely worth looking at.

> However, you realize
> there are technical considerations such as the look and fell of the
> merged web-site.

Sheesh ... just when I was starting to think that *nothing* could top the
rancor of arguing about coding conventions ... :-)

> Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch

Craig


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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Sam Ruby]

Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>
> +1 on the principle of merging Jakarta and XML. However, you realize
> there are technical considerations such as the look and fell of the
> merged web-site. More importantly, what would be the scope of the merged
> XML+Jakarta?

The more important question is what is the community model.  As the XML
bylaws are clones of the Jakarta ones, I would venture to say that they are
fairly compatible.

> How should we call the combined project? ApacheGrabBag? SourceForgeII?

Jakarta.

[Note: answer above is merely to show that the proposal is not a serious
one]

One thing I would like people to think about.  I see viceral reaction at
times to putting things in commons.  Or in Avalon/Turbine/Struts, etc.  And
often there is lengthy debates about whether something belongs in Jakarta
or not.  Yet, curiously, there seems to be little consideration as to
whether something belongs in Apache or not.

How many people here know what the Apache board does?

Here's a concrete example to illustrate the issue: I've always been under
the assumption that at some point a few people in Jakarta land would take a
sustained interest in contributing code to Gump, at which point, I would
propose it to be a formal subproject.  At the present time, it looks like
there is a greater possibility of interest of contributing by people in XML
land.  This lead to a bit of soul searching, and I came to conclusion that
if that were to come to pass, I would follow the community.  After all,
what does it really matter whether the code is jakarta-gump or
xml-whatever?

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Sam Ruby]

Ted Husted wrote:
>
> I'm not sure if I'm ready for the equation
>
> Jakarta != Java

http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-tomcat-connectors/jk/native/common/
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-ant/src/main/org/apache/tools/ant/taskdefs/optional/dotnet/

> Thinking about it more carefully, ...

That was the real point of this exercise.  ;-)

- Sam Ruby


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RE: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Gerhard Froehlich]

Hi,

>At 11:34 04.01.2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>Ted Husted wrote:
>>>
>>> What would also help, I think, would be if we published more of our
>>> statistics. I know Vincent was working on a download stats page once.
>>> I've also seen people post interesting statistics about the posts to the
>>> mailing lists. A snapshot of how many commits are being made and number
>>> of unique committers making them would also be interesting. And other
>>> things, I'm sure.
>>>
>>> Now, if I only had the faintest idea of how to automate something like
>>> this ...
>>
>>Stefano, I and others are working on this.
>>
>>http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-apache-general&m=100857962129228&w=2
>>http://www.apache.org/~stefano/forrest/1.5/
>>
>>- Sam Ruby
>>
>>P.S.  Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml
>>and Jakarta?  Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot.
>>Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we?
>
>+1 on the principle of merging Jakarta and XML. However, you realize
>there are technical considerations such as the look and fell of the
>merged web-site. More importantly, what would be the scope of the merged 
>XML+Jakarta?
>
>How should we call the combined project? ApacheGrabBag? SourceForgeII?
>
>How about all the C++ projects in XML land? 
>
>When do you think ApacheGrabBag/SourceForgeII and the httpd projects 
>could be merged?
>
>Seriously, I think the idea is worth our consideration. Regards, Ceki

No, I wouldn't merge. Leave the URLs as are, take the Forrest design and 
change the color ;-)!

  Gerhard





 

In the beginning there was nothing... then even *that* exploded!



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RE: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Paulo Gaspar]

I am 100% for that.

Even because:
 - How server specific is Ant?
 - And BCEL?
 - And Log4J?
 - And ORO?
 - And Regexp?
 - And Xerces?
 - And commons collections, DBCP, Beanutils...

And I could push it a bit more.

Of course that they are useful to build server stuff... as they could be
useful to build client stuff, which is exactly what happens with POI!


I think the QUALITY distinction is much more important than the server
issue and that should probably be formalized.

For me the important arguments being presented are those going on between
Stefano and Jon - if there is enough commitment and support for it.
(IMO Stefano record looks great. It only makes it better that he knows 
how and to whom to delegate responsibilities.)


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 6:14 PM
> 
> 
> Sam Ruby wrote:
> > P.S.  Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow 
> merge xml
> > and Jakarta?  Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot.
> > Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we?
> 
> The thing with XML is that core products like Xerces are cross-platform.
> I'm not sure if I'm ready for the equation 
> 
> Jakarta != Java
> 
> Thinking about it more carefully, I would venture to say that POI (along
> with Battick, FOP, and Xang) may belong under Jakarta. 
> 
> But I'm not sure that we want to say that Jakarta != Java or XML==Java.
> 
> I do think it might be helpful to drop the "server" stipulation from the
> Jakarta charter. I realized that we are all born of the HTTPD Apache
> server, but I think the ASF is growing past that. Jakarta should be
> about the development of open source products on the Java platform. And
> the ASF should be about promoting meritocratic development, regardless
> of what it has any ties to the Apache HTTPD.
> 
> This coincides nicely with the other ASF projects, which are also based
> around given languages, like PHP. 
> 
> -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
> -- Building Java web applications with Struts.
> -- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
> -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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> 

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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Ted Husted]

Sam Ruby wrote:
> P.S.  Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml
> and Jakarta?  Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot.
> Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we?

The thing with XML is that core products like Xerces are cross-platform.
I'm not sure if I'm ready for the equation 

Jakarta != Java

Thinking about it more carefully, I would venture to say that POI (along
with Battick, FOP, and Xang) may belong under Jakarta. 

But I'm not sure that we want to say that Jakarta != Java or XML==Java.

I do think it might be helpful to drop the "server" stipulation from the
Jakarta charter. I realized that we are all born of the HTTPD Apache
server, but I think the ASF is growing past that. Jakarta should be
about the development of open source products on the Java platform. And
the ASF should be about promoting meritocratic development, regardless
of what it has any ties to the Apache HTTPD.

This coincides nicely with the other ASF projects, which are also based
around given languages, like PHP. 

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/

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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 11:34 04.01.2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Ted Husted wrote:
>>
>> What would also help, I think, would be if we published more of our
>> statistics. I know Vincent was working on a download stats page once.
>> I've also seen people post interesting statistics about the posts to the
>> mailing lists. A snapshot of how many commits are being made and number
>> of unique committers making them would also be interesting. And other
>> things, I'm sure.
>>
>> Now, if I only had the faintest idea of how to automate something like
>> this ...
>
>Stefano, I and others are working on this.
>
>http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-apache-general&m=100857962129228&w=2
>http://www.apache.org/~stefano/forrest/1.5/
>
>- Sam Ruby
>
>P.S.  Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml
>and Jakarta?  Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot.
>Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we?

+1 on the principle of merging Jakarta and XML. However, you realize
there are technical considerations such as the look and fell of the
merged web-site. More importantly, what would be the scope of the merged 
XML+Jakarta?

How should we call the combined project? ApacheGrabBag? SourceForgeII?

How about all the C++ projects in XML land? 

When do you think ApacheGrabBag/SourceForgeII and the httpd projects 
could be merged?

Seriously, I think the idea is worth our consideration. Regards, Ceki


--
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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Sam Ruby]

Ted Husted wrote:
>
> What would also help, I think, would be if we published more of our
> statistics. I know Vincent was working on a download stats page once.
> I've also seen people post interesting statistics about the posts to the
> mailing lists. A snapshot of how many commits are being made and number
> of unique committers making them would also be interesting. And other
> things, I'm sure.
>
> Now, if I only had the faintest idea of how to automate something like
> this ...

Stefano, I and others are working on this.

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=xml-apache-general&m=100857962129228&w=2
http://www.apache.org/~stefano/forrest/1.5/

- Sam Ruby

P.S.  Food for thought: wouldn't it be nice if we could somehow merge xml
and Jakarta?  Then discussions as to where POI should go would be moot.
Gump doesn't care about these arbitrary distinctions, why should we?


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Re: Jakarta Status [was Code conventions]

[Ted Husted]

Danny Angus wrote:
> Perhaps thats because the direction is not changing, are the goals of the
> project still the same, are the subprojects all still moving steadily
> forward?
>
> They seem to be, and this would be a good reason for not interfering, after
> all there are no deadlines except those imposed by individual projects and
> few imperatives of the kind which, in the commercial world, need to be
> enforced by PM's.

I agree. Personally, I don't see that anything is broken. Things don't
happen as quickly as any of us would like, but they are happening.
Struts now supports Velocity along with JavaServer Pages. Turbine is
exposing more of its components, and Torque may graduate to a subproject
in its own right. Avalon is up to speed, and just made a significant
release. We've added BCEL, Lucene, and others to our midst this year.
Doug Cutting was going to step back from Lucene, but it looks like we've
drawn him back into the game ;-). The Commons has made several releases,
and is actively whiteboarding severl exciting new products, like the
Workflow and DynaBeans. 

I think the newsletter will help bring more of this out. There mis ore
good news than people imagine. We just don't blow our own horn much.

What would also help, I think, would be if we published more of our
statistics. I know Vincent was working on a download stats page once.
I've also seen people post interesting statistics about the posts to the
mailing lists. A snapshot of how many commits are being made and number
of unique committers making them would also be interesting. And other
things, I'm sure.

Now, if I only had the faintest idea of how to automate something like
this ...


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/

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