Re: [gentoo-dev] a new TLP to "unify" programming langiages?

[George Shapovalov]

середа, 11. жовтень 2006 23:12, Stuart Herbert Ви написали:
> We don't need a management hierarchy just to bring some structure to
> the docs on the website.I don't see any benefit in creating a TLP
> for programming languages.  If we were to move programming languages
> around, for example, I'd want to bring PHP and Ruby under webapps, as
> that's a more natural fit than a 'programming languages' category.
Well, incidentally I already got replies for two languages where they wanted 
now to create a project, given there is a TLP for languaged in general. So 
some people so want that :).

Anyway, any project is definitely free to opt out of this move. If you want 
your project to stay TLP please just say so.

George

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Re: [gentoo-dev] a new TLP to "unify" programming langiages?

[George Shapovalov]

середа, 11. жовтень 2006 22:30, Matthew Kennedy Ви написали:
> I think this proposal is OK even it is just to organize the top level
> listing a bit better.  It seems like a real mix right now -- Council
> next to Common Lisp, PR next to Python and so on etc.
Yea, this is exactly why I want to organize stuff a bit better.

> > The principal list of individual TLPs (as they stand now) is below:
> > Common Lisp
> > eselect
[..]
>
> I'm surprised to see you've listed eselect in there.  Isn't that more
> of a system tool?
Well, it seemed like a small tool, having a TLP for which is a gross overkill, 
and it is used to switch compiler variants. But then you are right - it is 
used for many more nonrelated packages (the related modules I have here are: 
binutils, compiler, gnat, java-nsplugin, java-vm, but this is less than 50%), 
so we can cross it out (from this one).

>
> > PPS
> > We could add principal divisions there, like
> >   Languages
> >   Tools
> >   whatever_else
>
> I think this would be too deep a hierarchy.
Funnily I already got questions like "is this thing only to move stuff around? 
I would be all for it if it had a bit more meat". I added that PPS expecting 
questions like that would be asked. Of course, realistically I do not 
think anything other than repositioning a few projects comes out of it - yet. 
If anybody steps forward saying "I want to do so and so and it seems to fit 
under this umbrella" then I think would be the right time to consider the 
structure or what exactly is going to be done. As it stands now, I don't 
think it is worth overly worrying about this.

George

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Re: [gentoo-dev] a new TLP to "unify" programming langiages?

[Stuart Herbert]

On 10/12/06, George Shapovalov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Funnily I already got questions like "is this thing only to move stuff around?
I would be all for it if it had a bit more meat". I added that PPS expecting
questions like that would be asked. Of course, realistically I do not
think anything other than repositioning a few projects comes out of it - yet.
If anybody steps forward saying "I want to do so and so and it seems to fit
under this umbrella" then I think would be the right time to consider the
structure or what exactly is going to be done. As it stands now, I don't
think it is worth overly worrying about this.


This isn't going to bring any benefits to anyone.  If you want to help
users find docs on programming languages on Gentoo (assuming there
_are_ any users who don't know how to Google for such things), just
get the docs team to organise 'Programming Languages on Gentoo' docs
category on [1].  _That_ would be much more useful to users.

Creating a TLP just to order some docs ... sorry, but it seems a very
bizarre thing to do.

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml

Best regards,
Stu
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42?

[Stuart Herbert]

On 10/11/06, Stephen Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

We also use space-delimited depend atoms everywhere else. It makes no
sense to break that when a comma works equally well.


I'm sorry, are you telling everyone that it's too difficult for you to
write an ungreedy regex that also tests for the possibility of a list
bounded by [ and ] being part of an atom?

Best regards,
Stu
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Re: [gentoo-dev] a new TLP to "unify" programming langiages?

[Luca Barbato]

George Shapovalov wrote:
> Well, it seemed like a small tool, having a TLP for which is a gross 
> overkill, 

eselect is anything but a small tool...


I'd just reorder docs in a more rational way but let our flat tlp as is.

lu

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42?

[Stuart Herbert]

On 10/11/06, Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Not an issue for me. It's an issue for random people writing scripts,
for people using command line things and for people who don't want to
use a full parser framework for some quick hack. There's no need to
make things harder for random developers here.


Wouldn't a resolver API be the better approach to solving that?  We're
not here to support x-random number of independent, unofficial
implementations of atom parsers.

Best regards,
Stu
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Re: [gentoo-dev] a new TLP to "unify" programming langiages?

[Alexandre Buisse]

On Wed, Oct 11, 2006 at 19:33:16 +0200, George Shapovalov wrote:

> Hi gang.
>
> [snip]
> 
> The principal list of individual TLPs (as they stand now) is below:
> Common Lisp
> eselect
> java
> perl
> php
> python
> Ada  -- to be added


Hi,
if you go ahead with it, we'll probably want to add a ml subproject. It
didn't seem worth creating a whole TLP before, but would definitely have
a place in such an organization.

/Alexandre
-- 
Hi, I'm a .signature virus! Please copy me in your ~/.signature.


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[gentoo-dev] Last rites for net-im/kopete

[Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò]

As per summary, net-im/kopete is going away (again).
For a while upstrem released some versions out of the KDE release cycle 
(0.12_alpha through 0.12.2), but now 0.12.3 was merged again inside 
kdenetwork-3.5.5, so the point of having it in net-im is gone again.

As I've heard the most foolish requests about this, I'll be masking it for 
good. kde-base/kopete has already all the changes I did to net-im/kopete in 
the past months backported, so there's no regression in moving to it now.

-- 
Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/
Gentoo/Alt lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, Sound, ALSA, PAM, KDE, CJK, Ruby ...


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42?

[Stephen Bennett]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 09:52:42 +0100
"Stuart Herbert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm sorry, are you telling everyone that it's too difficult for you to
> write an ungreedy regex that also tests for the possibility of a list
> bounded by [ and ] being part of an atom?

No. I'm saying that it's more effort than simply tokenising by spaces,
and that there's absolutely no benefit in making anyone expend that
effort.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] a new TLP to "unify" programming langiages?

[Caleb Cushing]

This isn't going to bring any benefits to anyone.  If you want to help
users find docs on programming languages on Gentoo (assuming there
_are_ any users who don't know how to Google for such things), just
get the docs team to organise 'Programming Languages on Gentoo' docs
category on [1].  _That_ would be much more useful to users.

Creating a TLP just to order some docs ... sorry, but it seems a very
bizarre thing to do.

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/index.xml


I would like to say that the docs are second to... probably only IBM
developerworks which seems like where 1/4 of our docs come from.

perhaps the wrong time to bring this up but the list for documentation
is  a MESS I've been using gentoo docs for 3 years back when they were
1/10-ish this size and back then the organization worked. but I can
never remember whether the reference I'm looking for is

Gentoo Desktop Documentation Resources
Upgrade Guides
System Administration Documentation
etc.

so the index page rare does me any good

I suggested this on bugzilla a long time ago... and can't remember
what happened with it. but docs could use a search function. better
yet if it could somehow be integrated also into the forum search might
save some time with some questions. example search grub on the forums
get the grub error listing doc, and the handbook chapter on it, then
forum threads.

even if the forum thing wasn't possible say I was looking for a doc on iptables.

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/security/security-handbook.xml?part=1&chap=12
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/articles/dynamic-iptables-firewalls.xml
http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/articles/linux-24-stateful-fw-design.xml

those are 3 references that I'm aware of and in 2 different places and
only one even mentions iptables in the title, and if I don't know the
linux firewall is called iptables and I search firewall only one is
labeled firewall in the link and the other I would have to know it was
mentioned in the security handbook. I also think that via common sense
these would all be under System Administration Documentation, but none
of them are. If I were new to the docs I would be completely confused
at the organization.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Caleb Cushing]

I know what unsupported means chris. what I'm referring to though are
bugs that would affect i686 as well. but possibly get closed because a
dev, like yourself, requested emerge --info and saw it was build on <
i686 and closes it for that reason. probably RESOLVED WONTFIX .

On 10/11/06, Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

On Wed, 2006-10-11 at 12:18 -0400, Caleb Cushing wrote:
> I fear the idea that valid bugs may be closed do to a -march=i586.

If they're a bug dealing with an issue only present on < i686, then yes,
they likely would be, at least for release media, unless you also
provide a patch.  This is what being "unsupported" means.  Now, if you
give me a patch for some bug that only affects < i686, I'll apply it,
provided it doesn't break >= i686, but I simply don't have the time to
support < i686 with the release media anymore.

By the way, the stage1 tarball and Minimal InstallCD are both built as
"i386" and will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation




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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42?

[Natanael Copa]

On Wed, 2006-10-11 at 22:17 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 22:08:31 +0100 "Stuart Herbert"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | On 10/11/06, Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | > Spaces in dep atoms would be highly evil, since it'd mean they were
> | > no longer simply space delimited. Commas [foo,-bar,baz] would be
> | > fine...
> | 
> | Write a better parser then :P
> 
> Not an issue for me. It's an issue for random people writing scripts,
> for people using command line things and for people who don't want to
> use a full parser framework for some quick hack. There's no need to
> make things harder for random developers here.

I tried to write some scripts some time ago and it was completely
horrible. I wish more people would have been thinking like Ciaran
earlier.

btw.. I keep hearing about this paladius. Is it more script-friendly
than emerge?

--
Natanael Copa

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[gentoo-dev] Spider's Resignation from the Project

[Seemant Kulleen]

Dear All,

I'm forwarding this on behalf of Spider.  If anyone would like to send a
message to him, please respond to me privately and I'll forward your
wishes along.

Thanks,

Seemant

--- BEGIN

Well, I guess the time has come to say farewell.

Not without a slight taste of bitterness in my mouth as I write this.
Sadness to see an old bunch of friends in the distance,  reminiscent
of Samwise standing behind and watching Bilbo, Frodo and his friends
depart for other shores.

Still, I think its time to tell some history of where we came from.

The project I joined was small, we were... Twelve, I believe.  My
first additions were some clumsy additions for stuff I was missing
when transitioning into Gentoo.  Some small tools, backgrounds.
Nothing fancy, just getting the compiler to work,  some hacks on the
kernel,  a few tweaks to things here and there.  Work was basically
down to the "don't screw up" principle,  and if you did , it wasn't
the end of the world, because all the users were "hackers" and
developers themselves.   When portage died ( happened about every sync
or so...)  you fell back and did things manually. Was easier that way
anyhow.

QA, what was that?

Devrel?  Well, we had IRC, does that count? Later on it was Seemant.
Seemant doesn't scale very well so he sorta burned out.  Found out
that drobbins didn't scale very well either, it got hard to keep track
of things.  At one point I think I was listed as maintainer of about
20% of the tree. We were also cause of some of the first really rough
breakages. libpng incident and others caused us to think some more
about ABI stability.

People came and started to muck around more, without really knowing
what they were doing, so we realised we needed another check for it.
in came the ~x86 nomenclature.  Tagging, Keywords.  Starting to clean
up the mess that our "one size fits all" USE flags were.

The project grew and we started to get a lot more developers,  far too
many to know them all even by handle. Things got more organized into
"teams" "herds" and so on.  It also became a lot more demanding, you
don't screw up. Fin.   The QA watchdogs were there. I know, I was one
of them, chasing about stability and quality.

Things also started to take on a more "professional" attitude.   yes,
in quotations, because we still lacked a clear path, road map, reason
and function. However, we had "deadlines" that never held, (deadlines
with volunteers?)  teams started to bicker in between each other,
"you touched mine"started to remind you more and more about the
twins in a long car-ride, bickering about who's fingers were on what
seat.

Suddenly the apple wasn't just a bit sour when you bit on it, its
started to take on that sweet tone of rot.

People weren't joking around and doing what was fun, but holding in
mind some arbitrary product quality that wasn't specified. Different
groups had different goals and agendas. All from a working system on
an alpha, to embedded systems and network-wide installations.  We were
going to fit it all, without much overview.

Through that, people started to lose touch on who does what.  When
things went strange in glibc you didn't log on and ask Az or me, you
filed a bug report or contacted the herd.   When mozilla was screwing
around in the initscripts you didn't commit a fix (no no) but you
filed a patch and a bug. vs one of the clunkiest implementations in
history, "bugzilla".

When you had an argument it was more dirt piles and backstabbing than
work going on, and you ended up with a politicized system of councils
and committee's to handle the insurgence.

There was the cabal.

And throughout this,  we were still hacking around doing things for fun.

Well,  fun?  I know for me it changed from that. Stopped being hacking
around for fun to get things to work, turned towards "you must reply
to these mails.."  "you must fix bugs within days"   and more
hassling with infrastructure and administration than doing work.

Somewhere along the line it changed too much. Got too complex and
complicated.  We're still in that mess.

A typical example of the institutionalisation of the project is myself.

Had anyone just bothered to send me an email I would have replied.
"no, he's gone, terminate the account."that part works.

But.

You could have told me.

Since we're now so fond of bureaucracy, I'll add the following:

I retain copyright of all works committed to the Gentoo foundations
CVS repository,  the license remains as GPL v2, and you have my full
permission to continue to use it.   Texts and guides written and/or
co-authored by me will be treated the same way.  (No, I never signed a
copyright transfer to the project)


So long, thanks for all the fish.

And, remember. Give the kids in the back something to do and they will
stop bickering.


-- 
begin  .signature
.. signature ..
end

--- END

-- 
Seemant Kulleen
Developer, Gentoo Linux

-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Spider's Resignation from the Project

[Damian Florczyk]

Seemant Kulleen napisał(a):
> Dear All,
> 
> I'm forwarding this on behalf of Spider.  If anyone would like to send a
> message to him, please respond to me privately and I'll forward your
> wishes along.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Seemant
> 
> --- BEGIN
> 
> Well, I guess the time has come to say farewell.
> 
> Not without a slight taste of bitterness in my mouth as I write this.
> Sadness to see an old bunch of friends in the distance,  reminiscent
> of Samwise standing behind and watching Bilbo, Frodo and his friends
> depart for other shores.
> 
> Still, I think its time to tell some history of where we came from.
> 
> The project I joined was small, we were... Twelve, I believe.  My
> first additions were some clumsy additions for stuff I was missing
> when transitioning into Gentoo.  Some small tools, backgrounds.
> Nothing fancy, just getting the compiler to work,  some hacks on the
> kernel,  a few tweaks to things here and there.  Work was basically
> down to the "don't screw up" principle,  and if you did , it wasn't
> the end of the world, because all the users were "hackers" and
> developers themselves.   When portage died ( happened about every sync
> or so...)  you fell back and did things manually. Was easier that way
> anyhow.
> 
> QA, what was that?
> 
> Devrel?  Well, we had IRC, does that count? Later on it was Seemant.
> Seemant doesn't scale very well so he sorta burned out.  Found out
> that drobbins didn't scale very well either, it got hard to keep track
> of things.  At one point I think I was listed as maintainer of about
> 20% of the tree. We were also cause of some of the first really rough
> breakages. libpng incident and others caused us to think some more
> about ABI stability.
> 
> People came and started to muck around more, without really knowing
> what they were doing, so we realised we needed another check for it.
> in came the ~x86 nomenclature.  Tagging, Keywords.  Starting to clean
> up the mess that our "one size fits all" USE flags were.
> 
> The project grew and we started to get a lot more developers,  far too
> many to know them all even by handle. Things got more organized into
> "teams" "herds" and so on.  It also became a lot more demanding, you
> don't screw up. Fin.   The QA watchdogs were there. I know, I was one
> of them, chasing about stability and quality.
> 
> Things also started to take on a more "professional" attitude.   yes,
> in quotations, because we still lacked a clear path, road map, reason
> and function. However, we had "deadlines" that never held, (deadlines
> with volunteers?)  teams started to bicker in between each other,
> "you touched mine"started to remind you more and more about the
> twins in a long car-ride, bickering about who's fingers were on what
> seat.
> 
> Suddenly the apple wasn't just a bit sour when you bit on it, its
> started to take on that sweet tone of rot.
> 
> People weren't joking around and doing what was fun, but holding in
> mind some arbitrary product quality that wasn't specified. Different
> groups had different goals and agendas. All from a working system on
> an alpha, to embedded systems and network-wide installations.  We were
> going to fit it all, without much overview.
> 
> Through that, people started to lose touch on who does what.  When
> things went strange in glibc you didn't log on and ask Az or me, you
> filed a bug report or contacted the herd.   When mozilla was screwing
> around in the initscripts you didn't commit a fix (no no) but you
> filed a patch and a bug. vs one of the clunkiest implementations in
> history, "bugzilla".
> 
> When you had an argument it was more dirt piles and backstabbing than
> work going on, and you ended up with a politicized system of councils
> and committee's to handle the insurgence.
> 
> There was the cabal.
> 
> And throughout this,  we were still hacking around doing things for fun.
> 
> Well,  fun?  I know for me it changed from that. Stopped being hacking
> around for fun to get things to work, turned towards "you must reply
> to these mails.."  "you must fix bugs within days"   and more
> hassling with infrastructure and administration than doing work.
> 
> Somewhere along the line it changed too much. Got too complex and
> complicated.  We're still in that mess.
> 
> A typical example of the institutionalisation of the project is myself.
> 
> Had anyone just bothered to send me an email I would have replied.
> "no, he's gone, terminate the account."that part works.
> 
> But.
> 
> You could have told me.
> 
> Since we're now so fond of bureaucracy, I'll add the following:
> 
> I retain copyright of all works committed to the Gentoo foundations
> CVS repository,  the license remains as GPL v2, and you have my full
> permission to continue to use it.   Texts and guides written and/or
> co-authored by me will be treated the same way.  (No, I never signed a
> copyright transfer to the project)
> 
> 
> So long, thanks for all the fish.
> 
> And, remember. 

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42?

[Jan Kundrát]

Brian Harring wrote:
> cat/pkg[use1_on,-use2_off,-use3_on]

You mean "use3_on", without the minus sign, right?

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42?

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:00:05 +0100 "Stuart Herbert"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| On 10/11/06, Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > Not an issue for me. It's an issue for random people writing
| > scripts, for people using command line things and for people who
| > don't want to use a full parser framework for some quick hack.
| > There's no need to make things harder for random developers here.
| 
| Wouldn't a resolver API be the better approach to solving that?

Depends upon the task. There's no point forcing people to use a huge
API for everything just because someone wants to use spaces rather than
commas.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail: ciaranm at ciaranm.org
Web : http://ciaranm.org/
as-needed is broken : http://ciaranm.org/show_post.pl?post_id=13



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42?

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:24:36 +0200 Natanael Copa
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| btw.. I keep hearing about this paladius. Is it more script-friendly
| than emerge?

Once we get the Ruby interface fleshed out it will be...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail: ciaranm at ciaranm.org
Web : http://ciaranm.org/
as-needed is broken : http://ciaranm.org/show_post.pl?post_id=13



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42?

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 09:52:42 +0100 "Stuart Herbert"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| On 10/11/06, Stephen Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > We also use space-delimited depend atoms everywhere else. It makes
| > no sense to break that when a comma works equally well.
| 
| I'm sorry, are you telling everyone that it's too difficult for you to
| write an ungreedy regex that also tests for the possibility of a list
| bounded by [ and ] being part of an atom?

We are not talking about us. We have access to a full parser that could
very easily be told to handle spaces, backspaces, tabs and anything
else you'd care to use. It can even go beyond the single lookahead
element that's required here.

No. We're talking about other developers and users who just want to do
a quick script without having to care about all that. You know, not
making design decisions that have no affect on the top 1% but that
screw over significant parts of the remainder just for the sake of
using a space over a comma.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail: ciaranm at ciaranm.org
Web : http://ciaranm.org/
as-needed is broken : http://ciaranm.org/show_post.pl?post_id=13



signature.asc
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Paladius (was: GLEP 42?)

[Natanael Copa]

On Thu, 2006-10-12 at 16:18 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:24:36 +0200 Natanael Copa
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | btw.. I keep hearing about this paladius. Is it more script-friendly
> | than emerge?
> 
> Once we get the Ruby interface fleshed out it will be...

What about shell scripts?

Is it one (or few) big fat executable that can do everything windows
style, or is it small cooperating executables unix style?

Is fancy/pretty features like colors and prytty output more important
than easy-to-use with pipes in shell scripts?

--
Natanael Copa

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42?

[Andrew Gaffney]

Natanael Copa wrote:

btw.. I keep hearing about this paladius. Is it more script-friendly
than emerge?


It's "paludis", and no, the API is currently C++ only, afaik. There are ruby 
bindings in the works, though. The other alternative, pkgcore, has a python 
API...as does portage itself. None of the options have an interface that's 
usable via a bash script.


--
Andrew Gaffneyhttp://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer   Installer Project
Today's lesson in political correctness:  "Go asphyxiate on a phallus"
--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Spider's Resignation from the Project

[Grant Goodyear]

Seemant Kulleen wrote: [Thu Oct 12 2006, 08:50:33AM CDT]
> A typical example of the institutionalisation of the project is myself.
> 
> Had anyone just bothered to send me an email I would have replied.
> "no, he's gone, terminate the account."that part works.
> 
> But.
> 
> You could have told me.

A minor correction here:  Spider did receive the retirement-bug e-mails,
but never knew it until today as his filters munched them.  It doesn't
change his argument that Gentoo is much less personal now than it was
"back in the day", but it does, at least, make things look less
malicious.

-g2boojum-
-- 
Grant Goodyear  
Gentoo Developer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42?

[Stephen Bennett]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 11:03:41 -0500
Andrew Gaffney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It's "paludis", and no, the API is currently C++ only, afaik. There
> are ruby bindings in the works, though. The other alternative,
> pkgcore, has a python API...as does portage itself. None of the
> options have an interface that's usable via a bash script.

Paludis also has python bindings in the works. And the regular paludis
command-line is usable via bash scripts, though for obvious reasons not
as flexible as the other languages would be.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Spider's Resignation from the Project

[Lance Albertson]

Grant Goodyear wrote:
> Seemant Kulleen wrote: [Thu Oct 12 2006, 08:50:33AM CDT]
>> A typical example of the institutionalisation of the project is myself.
>>
>> Had anyone just bothered to send me an email I would have replied.
>> "no, he's gone, terminate the account."that part works.
>>
>> But.
>>
>> You could have told me.
> 
> A minor correction here:  Spider did receive the retirement-bug e-mails,
> but never knew it until today as his filters munched them.  It doesn't
> change his argument that Gentoo is much less personal now than it was
> "back in the day", but it does, at least, make things look less
> malicious.

I often wondered if people's filters would muck away such retirement
bugs sometimes. Perhaps devrel might send personal emails along side bug
emails just in case they don't watch their bug email that much.

-- 
Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Peter Weber]

Hi, im sorry about "creating" a flamewar. But their are a view points
that disturb me really:

- The same installtion (networkless!) possibilites should be offered to
the people who install via the shell (the oldschool an most often used
way i believe), the ncurses-installer and the gtk-installer. I
personally think a real Stage-3 would be the best, but it would be also
good enough to have the possiblity to use the so called
"voodoo-scripts".

We are Gentoo, not Windows, let us the Shell, Please don't play the role
of the "Force" and the "Clickadventure-Community". There is often not
only one right way, regluary their are more. One on the Shell, NCURSES,
QT, GTK and something between that over a totally other subset of
librarys and programs ;-)

The best way to solve problems, is a clear communication over officall
channels like the gwn.

- Just because a developer thinks it is good, it isn't good. Just
because a User think it is good, it isn't good.

If there are to less testers/volunters - here I'am! I will do what I can
in my possiblities for Gentoo and the Community. Give me the the link to
the next release, I will take a look on it.

- Gentoo isn't User-Centric. Gentoo isn't Developer-Centric.

Gentoo is used by a lot of users, because the love the system behind the
CFLAGS/USEFLAGS and PORTS. Gentoo is used by a lot of developers,
because the love the system behind the CFLAGS/USEFLAGS and PORTS, it is
perfect for Coders. A lot of Users become also Developers.


Your User, who try to become sb. who move sth.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] a new TLP to "unify" programming langiages?

[George Shapovalov]

четвер, 12. жовтень 2006 10:47, Stuart Herbert написав:
> This isn't going to bring any benefits to anyone.  If you want to help
> users find docs on programming languages on Gentoo (assuming there
> _are_ any users who don't know how to Google for such things), just
> get the docs team to organise 'Programming Languages on Gentoo' docs
> category on [1].  _That_ would be much more useful to users.
Sorry, I am not sure how it went this direction. I am not talking about "some 
language docs", these do not even belong to our space. I am talking about 
Gentoo and project specific issues. 

One thing is an organization - there are real projects related to languages 
and IMHO it only makes sense for them to belong to a common TLP since they 
are related. (And looks like a few more would be created to represent 
existing teams when the TLP is created).
Then there are some "use resources" specific to every project. These would be 
represented as that - resource links in index.xml pages, as for example done 
with multi-blas/lapack in sci.

This is all I am talking about. Sorry about confusion.

George

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[gentoo-dev] Troubleshooters for Gentoo

[Maurice van der Pot]

Hi,

I've noticed in the past that a lot of people come to irc with problems
in some area (say networking) that are easy to solve just by first
asking a number of questions to identify the problem and then providing
the solution.

I've always liked the way Microsoft put these troubleshooters in their
help files. While the content of Microsoft's troubleshooters probably 
never really helped anyone, the format of a troubleshooter is in my 
opinion one of the best ways to help people solve their own problems.

Now I've hacked up a program that can create a troubleshooter from
specifications of questions and problems and their dependencies, but I'd
need to have some decent content to really make it useful for other
people.

I think having a couple of Gentoo-specific troubleshooters would be a
great resource for new users (not just new to Gentoo, but new to Linux).

I have a couple of questions:

1) Does this sound like a good idea?

2) Does anyone feel like pouring his/her troubleshooting skills into
   content for my program?

The program is still very immature (I skipped a lot of things that
weren't absolutely necessary for the program to show what it can do),
but that'll be fixed.

When given proper input, it generates HTML files that you can click 
through and that will hopefully lead you to (a solution to) your problem.
It has some sample content to show the format.

Maurice.


http://griffon26.kfk4ever.com/~griffon26/troubleshooter-0.0.2.tar.bz2
43f0042c802ad5ddcdf2a4db671c41c8 *troubleshooter-0.0.2.tar.bz2

-- 
Maurice van der Pot

Gentoo Linux Developer   [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gentoo.org
Creator of BiteMe!   [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.kfk4ever.com



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Paladius (was: GLEP 42?)

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 17:41:20 +0200 Natanael Copa
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| On Thu, 2006-10-12 at 16:18 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 14:24:36 +0200 Natanael Copa
| > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > | btw.. I keep hearing about this paladius. Is it more
| > | script-friendly than emerge?
| > 
| > Once we get the Ruby interface fleshed out it will be...
| 
| What about shell scripts?
| 
| Is it one (or few) big fat executable that can do everything windows
| style, or is it small cooperating executables unix style?

It's a .so file (well, several .so files) written in C++, plus
supporting bash scripts for ebuildy things. There're several client
apps available, most of which are reasonably shell script friendly for
small things. For complex tasks you're better off using the API rather
than pipes.

| Is fancy/pretty features like colors and prytty output more important
| than easy-to-use with pipes in shell scripts?

The two don't have to be mutually exclusive. Having said that, Ruby is
a good shell scripting language...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh
Mail: ciaranm at ciaranm.org
Web : http://ciaranm.org/
as-needed is broken : http://ciaranm.org/show_post.pl?post_id=13



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Troubleshooters for Gentoo

[Caleb Cushing]

> I have a couple of questions:
> 
> 1) Does this sound like a good idea?
> 
> 2) Does anyone feel like pouring his/her troubleshooting skills into
>content for my program?
1.) maybe microsofts troubleshooter sucks, it never solved a single problem I 
had. this will only be a good Idea if we're guaranteed to do better. on 
gentoo this would be harder than say red hat. because of almost infinite 
combinations of ways to have your software built.

2.) maybe... but I think you'll need someone before me. this is too unreliable 
too many variables / ways of doing things. first question do you use command 
line / gnome / kde /. answer use program x in this way to solver your 
problem. 

user huh. I don't have this program wtf. program x is not installed. checks 
portage. program x was hardmasked last week. this would be insane open source 
moves to fast good luck having your troubleshooter keep up.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Chris Gianelloni]

On Thu, 2006-10-12 at 20:06 +0200, Peter Weber wrote:
> - The same installtion (networkless!) possibilites should be offered to
> the people who install via the shell (the oldschool an most often used
> way i believe), the ncurses-installer and the gtk-installer. I
> personally think a real Stage-3 would be the best, but it would be also
> good enough to have the possiblity to use the so called
> "voodoo-scripts".

I'm going to repeat myself exactly once more, then I'm flagging this
entire thread to /dev/null.

I'm not interested in supporting anything other than what we currently
support.  I'm not interested in spending any more of my *volunteer* time
supporting an installation method that I consider antiquated and
bug-ridden.  I am sick of wasting *my* time supporting the countless
bugs from the old networkless capabilities.  No amount of discussion
will change this.  If you want to change my mind, you are more than
welcome to initiate negotiations on my compensation for not only
building the required media, but also supporting it.  You are also free
to build the media and support it yourself.  If you're unwilling to
either pay me to do this, or do it yourself, then I simply don't care.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Missing: Universal-CD - Gentoo discriminates shell and networkless users

[Luca Barbato]

Do not top post, is rude.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top-posting

Peter Weber wrote:
> You seem to think that the discussion is around you, and your work :-)
> 
> It is about Gentoo, please keep this in mind. Nobody says YOU have to
> make the work, or that you are doing sth. wrong. You could do the job,
> but you don't must do anything/everything alone. You want that Gentoo
> "needs" a internet-connection, and their should be now way to install
> Gentoo without access to the web?

He wants people quit annoying him about frivolous things.

> 
> Sorry, but simply: No. I'am complet againt this! I select OSS, because I
> want independence (from the web in this special chase). I accept your
> position, but I don't agree.

His position: "I won't do it, do yourself or pay."

> 
> On Question: Is their a howto, a script or a offical guidline how you or
> other gentoo-devs build the Universal-Disc's, what must be included an
> so on?

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/releng/catalyst/

Regards.

-- 

Luca Barbato

Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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Re: [gentoo-dev] New Developer: Alon Bar-Lev (alonbl)

[Eldad Zack]

On Thursday 12 October 2006 02:19, Michael Cummings wrote:
> On Wed, 2006-10-11 at 08:35 -0700, Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
> > Eldad Zack wrote:
> > > Christian Heim wrote:
> > >> Its my pleasure to introduce to you Alon "alonbl" Bar-Lev, the latest
> > >> addition joining to help out with the crypto herd.
> > >>
> > >> He hails from Israel (hrm, they don't have cities down there ?). So
> > >> far it looks like Alon is completely constrained to his computer, he
> > >> doesn't have any other hobbies nor life.
> > >
> > > Oh, great, I'm not alone here anymore :) Welcome!
> >
> > And soon there will be three of us - I'm moving to Israel some time
> > next year ;-)
>
> yuval too.

Hmm... that makes quite a crowd :) the more the better :)

-- 
Eldad Zack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Key/Fingerprint at pgp.mit.edu, ID 0x96EA0A93


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Spider's Resignation from the Project

[Duncan]

Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted [EMAIL PROTECTED],
excerpted below, on  Thu, 12 Oct 2006 11:56:02 -0500:

> Grant Goodyear wrote:
>> Seemant Kulleen wrote: [Thu Oct 12 2006, 08:50:33AM CDT]
>>> A typical example of the institutionalisation of the project [...]
>> 
>> A minor correction here:  Spider did receive the retirement-bug e-mails,
>> but never knew it until today as his filters munched them.  It doesn't
>> change his argument that Gentoo is much less personal now than it was
>> "back in the day", but it does, at least, make things look less
>> malicious.
> 
> I often wondered if people's filters would muck away such retirement
> bugs sometimes. Perhaps devrel might send personal emails along side bug
> emails just in case they don't watch their bug email that much.

Even if they do see the bug mail, personal mails would give it the human
touch once again.  Even when one agrees with the ultimate outcome,
most should agree that being run thru the system like so much grist for the
mill doesn't feel so great.  The human touch helps.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master."  Richard Stallman

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