Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On 19/03/07, Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2007-03-19 at 18:54 +0100, Michael Krelin wrote: Seriously. Everybody go to distrowatch and click on the little Gentoo no the right and watch what happens. If we got everybody to do it, then suddenly Gentoo must be the most popular distribution on the planet! Is that going to prove anything but Gentoo supporters infancy? No. It does prove that Gentoo supporters (at least on this list) have no sense of humor. Look at what I was responding to and read what I said again. In case you're still not noticing, it was a joke. It shows that the distrowatch ranking means absolutely nothing but the number of times somebody(s) clicked on a link. -- fwiw I guess most of us got it ;-) -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] About testing applications
On 18/03/07, Nirbheek Chauhan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Won't that break configs/increase clutter for people who share their home directories between two distributions since they'll have to restort to symlinks to make stuff work? I myself have gentoo and ubuntu installed and am sharing my home directory between them. I have to use ubuntu for maintaining a couple of packages and I can't live without gentoo :) Yes it would. Also, files beginning with . are not shown unless you use the -A/-a flag and therefore the traditional place for them is ~. Although having a ~/.config directory might make ~ look a bit cleaner, the use of .app directories instead of .app files, which is usual these days, helps to minimize the clutter. Also, if you have a .config directory to put all these files in, ~ becomes less cluttered but ~/.config becomes VERY cluttered! Jeff. -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] About testing applications
On 18/03/07, Piotr Jaroszyński [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 18 of March 2007 13:37:55 Jeff Rollin wrote: Also, if you have a .config directory to put all these files in, ~ becomes less cluttered but ~/.config becomes VERY cluttered! Nothing prevents from making appdirs in .config too. True, but then .config would just become cluttered with .appdirs instead! -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk
Re: [gentoo-dev] About testing applications
On 18/03/07, Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeff Rollin napsal(a): On 18/03/07, Piotr Jaroszyński [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 18 of March 2007 13:37:55 Jeff Rollin wrote: Also, if you have a .config directory to put all these files in, ~ becomes less cluttered but ~/.config becomes VERY cluttered! Nothing prevents from making appdirs in .config too. True, but then .config would just become cluttered with .appdirs instead! It wouldn't become any more or less cluttered than ~/ now... Which is why I was saying there was no point in a ~/.config directory... Jeff -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
On 16/03/07, Steve Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mauricio Lima Pilla wrote: We are always ready to listen to feedback and constructive criticism, but your constant trolling against the forums can't be classified as such. IMO ciaran has definitely been trolling this list and it's doing my head in. Is there anyone else who feels the same, strongly enough to risk his ire? -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list From what I've seen of the recent blather I can say I'm sorry Daniel Robbins is the one who took off. Jeff -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo's problems
On 15/03/07, Steve Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No development gets done on here either. Discussion does. Development happens when people aren't getting drawn into long flames about the distro they use, which only clog up peoples' inboxes. Are you suggesting a dev forum on forums.gentoo.org? If you are, you got my vote, especially if all the socio-political talk goes on there. BTW *none* of my code happens when I'm interfacing with an organic ;) Well said sir. Jeff -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
On 14/03/07, Christian Faulhammer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin F. Quinn [EMAIL PROTECTED]: So please, friends, just ignore it, nothing positive will come of it. Unfortunately it made its way onto big news site and lowers the view on Gentoo even more. From many comments I read we are a dying distro. V-Li Ha. This is like the Is the Linux desktop dead FUD I read a few months ago - IIRC it got deservedly derisive comments from the people on this list when I posted it here. FWIW, that was not written by the same author, but it could have been. News commentary sites are like the stock market - when something insignificant but bad happens the stock goes way down (= doom is predicted), when something insignificant but good happens the stock goes way up (= whatever they're writing about is the cure for cancer, c.) It's the same prophets of doom who came out of the woodwork over the DuncTank affair in Debian that, in the main, are posting this rubbish. Gentoo will die sooner or later - everything does - but I for one am not going to bury it just because it has stubbed its toe. Jeff -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Introducing the Proctors - Draft Code of Conduct for Gentoo
On 13/03/07, Christel Dahlskjaer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hiya all, Any input will have to be received by Thursday, 15 March, 1200GMT in order to be useful; the Council will be voting on it later that day at 2100UTC. UTC and GMT being the same, right? so 2100UTC is exactly nine hours after 1200GMT? -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Introducing the Proctors - Draft Code of Conduct for Gentoo
On 13/03/07, Stephen Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 13 Mar 2007 19:01:33 + Jeff Rollin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: UTC and GMT being the same, right? so 2100UTC is exactly nine hours after 1200GMT? For all relevant purposes, yes. -- Tyvm. -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Some council topics for March meeting
On 12/03/07, Steve Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stephen Bennett wrote: Oh, and bashing ciaranm doesn't make you cool. Yeah and nor does sucking him off. I wonder if the manglement at eclipse.co.uk would be pleased about the impression of your company you're given when you post things like that on this mailinglist from that address. If you ARE the manglement of the company, I can see why I haven't heard of it. Jeff -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: How others handle bad behaviour on mailinglists
On 12/03/07, Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this thread is dead, If only... -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Something positive! (was Re: Client-serve flags (again ;))
On 11/03/07, Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2007-03-10 at 22:52 +, Jeff Rollin wrote: Personally I find you are/he/she/it/x,y,z is gay statements/jokes really lame. The topic matter doesn't seem to be relevant to anything (beyond whom you might want to sleep with/marry, obviously) - does being gay make you a better/worse airline pilot? Does it inhibit your ability to be a software engineer? Are you more likely to step out on to the road in front of an oncoming vehicle? Does it mean you spend 60 mins a day more than heterosexuals watching television? Are Mac users (as one OSNews nit posted recently) gay? Who gives a word-replaced-by-four-asterisks? *sigh* Can we drop this crap? Really, it was a joke. It wasn't even a joke in which someone said someone else was gay. Sure there was some hinting and some innuendo, but that's what made the joke. Huh? Excuse me, but as I tried to indicate in another message, I'm as much on YOUR side as anyone else's. Jeff -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Something positive! (was Re: Client-serve flags (again ;))
On 11/03/07, Steve Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeff Rollin wrote: On 10/03/07, Ryan Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The people who get all bent out of shape about a simple joke like that are either homosexual themselves (not a bad thing) or homophobes (definitely a bad thing). .. OTOH, I don't see how the allegation that people who are homophobic fear they may be homosexuals themselves is shocking, since I've suspected the same on many occasions and know that other people have - and it's imo certainly no more shocking than the original comment - which I didn't, but which *could*, be taken as a snide bit of homophobia. Yeah, it's fairly commonly agreed round these parts too. FWIW it wasn't the nature of the insult, it was just that there was an insult at all, from someone i've never spoken to; it made me think that I'm clearly annoying people and just not welcome. Felt like a kick in the guts after enjoying myself hanging out on irc. Anyway, *moving swiftly on*, I don't think it's right to have homophobic jokes (or any offensive jokes or language) as a general point of common courtesy. Especially not on a mailing-list. Oh, I can think of much more annoying and unwelcome correspondents than you ;-), if on other mailinglists. Simply put: slag me off all you want on irc, but please don't bring it to the mailing list or the forums. These are effectively archives for how gentoo grew; certainly I was dismayed by some of the stuff I read, as I came up to speed with reasons for technical decisions. You wouldn't even be allowed to carry on like that on the forums; why should we users be held up to a higher standard of conduct than devs who sign up to represent gentoo? Nicely put. Jeff -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Re: Something positive! (was Re: Client-serve flags (again ;))
On 11/03/07, Stephen Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 19:24:49 +0100
Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
__ __ _ _ ___ _
|__ / _ \| \/ |/ ___| | / ___|_ _/ _ \| _ \| |
/ / | | | |\/| | | _| | \___ \ | || | | | |_) | |
/ /| |_| | | | | |_| |_| ___) || || |_| | __/|_|
/\___/|_| |_|\(_) |/ |_| \___/|_| (_)
Nice job of not polluting the list with noise there.
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Nice one!
--
Q: What will happen in the Aftermath?
A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath.
http://latedeveloper.org.uk
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Something positive! (was Re: Client-serve flags (again ;))
On 10/03/07, Andrej Kacian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 12:28:29 -0600 Andrew Gaffney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thing is that kinda stuff just puts ppl off; i've seen you carry on bugzilla but i always thought fair enough he's stressed and working on loads a bugs; if you really wanted to say that crap to me, you could have emailed me. Wow, somebody took that completely the wrong way. It was nothing more than a joke. This is a fine example of how different people are in perceiving jokes. BTW, I never understood why are certain people so touchy about homosexuality, Perhaps because they fear they might BE homosexual? Jeff
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Something positive! (was Re: Client-serve flags (again ;))
On 10/03/07, Ryan Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The people who get all bent out of shape about a simple joke like that are either homosexual themselves (not a bad thing) or homophobes (definitely a bad thing). Not only is this completely off-topic for a technical ml, but one of the most shockingly stupid things one could say in an international public forum. This would get you fired on the spot from any job. Please keep in mind you representing Gentoo here and keep your personal views on political issues to yourself. I'm speaking to everyone here. We have enough trouble getting along without this kind of shit. -- Actually it's the original i hear that's ok in MA joke that was off-topic, so the worst Andrew could be accused of is continuing it - maybe he shouldn't. OTOH, I don't see how the allegation that people who are homophobic fear they may be homosexuals themselves is shocking, since I've suspected the same on many occasions and know that other people have - and it's imo certainly no more shocking than the original comment - which I didn't, but which *could*, be taken as a snide bit of homophobia. Jeff -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Something positive! (was Re: Client-serve flags (again ;))
On 10/03/07, Stephen Bennett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 22:06:21 +0100 Andrej Kacian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BTW, I never understood why are certain people so touchy about homosexuality, while others joke about it with their peers daily (and very personally). The whole exchange made me think of http://xkcd.com/c65.html -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list Personally I find you are/he/she/it/x,y,z is gay statements/jokes really lame. The topic matter doesn't seem to be relevant to anything (beyond whom you might want to sleep with/marry, obviously) - does being gay make you a better/worse airline pilot? Does it inhibit your ability to be a software engineer? Are you more likely to step out on to the road in front of an oncoming vehicle? Does it mean you spend 60 mins a day more than heterosexuals watching television? Are Mac users (as one OSNews nit posted recently) gay? Who gives a word-replaced-by-four-asterisks? Jeff -- Q: What will happen in the Aftermath? A: Impossible to tell, since we're still in the Beforemath. http://latedeveloper.org.uk
[gentoo-dev] Patent threat?
HiI'd like to ask how many Gentoo devs get paid for contributions to Gentoo? How many of you (paid or non-paid) think MS's threat to sue over patents is a real danger?Thanks in advanceJeff
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo 2006.1
It seams that USE flags are not realy tested or howcan it happen that there are already know bugs in thestable distro ?Just like to make the point that if something requires a dependency in ~arch (unstable), then it isn't/shouldn't be in arch (stable).
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
All,If I might weigh in at this late stage:How did we end up here in the first place? Isn't the point of ~arch that we can put stuff here that might WELL be unstable? Sure, we'll get lots of I set my ACCEPT_KEYWORDS to ~arch and now my system is broken, messages, but if people are going to try ~arch, or Gentoo in general, despite warnings that it's not for newbies (and I have personal experience of this), we can't really stop them without turning the community into a fascist state, can we? Gentoo (like all projects) has a finite amount of developers, and if we spend to much time on ~arch then surely arch will suffer Just my 0.2 cents (sic)Jeff.On 04/05/06, Bart Braem [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (sorry if you receive this mail twice, my subscription was not ok)Philip Webb wrote: 060404 Caleb Tennis wrote: historically we were much more bleeding edge with our stable KDE versions, but if you've spent any significant time playing with 3.5.0 or 3.5.1, you would agree that they are terribly less stable than 3.4.3. Not here ! I've used both (successively) every day can't recall a single crash or noteworthy (indeed any) problem. It's true that I don't use Kmail similar exchange-type apps some comments suggest that is where the bulk of instability lies. The fact that KDE itself is no longer accepting bugs for 3.4.3 really does suggest there's something wrong with Gentoo's current criteria.As a user I have to add my opinion here. I have been using Gentoo for someyears now and it was always fairly up to date. Currently KDE is reallybehind on the current situation upstream. And then I wonder why. What makes us think we can not trust the KDE devs?Does compiling KDE introduce so many bugs? I mean, let's be serious, allother distributions have a stable 3.5.x now. Don't they experience all those horrible bugs?Seriously, this is really becoming an issue. As I pointed out in a bug Ifiled for a stable KDE (for which I apologize, I should have looked herefirst), some people are leaving Gentoo because of this slow upgrade process.The classical answer from devs is it's ready when it's ready. From a userpoint of view this is very, very vague. Please give users a more clearexplanation, this creates great frustration when looking at other distributions. Because it's stable there.These are my 2 cents as a user. One that loves Gentoo. One that loves KDE.One that's frustrated by the current situation. I am a CS so I know howhard programming can be, don't get me wrong there. I do appreciate what you guys do. But I can't understand why you do it this way right now.Bart--gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list -- --Argument against Linux number 6,033:...So this is like most Linux viruses. You have to download the virus yourself, become root, install it and then run it. Seems like a lot of work just to experience what you can get on Windows with a lot less trouble.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
I think that sums up some good answers to my questions, too.Jeff.On 04/05/06, Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On Thu, 2006-05-04 at 13:48 +0200, Bart Braem wrote: Does compiling KDE introduce so many bugs? I mean, let's be serious, all other distributions have a stable 3.5.x now. Don't they experience all those horrible bugs?Compiling KDE doesn't introduce bugs.Compiling KDE with anycombination of USE/CFLAGS/CXXFLAGS/GCC/Glibc/etc does.Remember that we're a from-source distribution.Guys like Debian or Red Hat just haveto compile it *once* then they make a package of it, with exactly *one*set of options (USE), C(XX)FLAGS, gcc, glibc, etc. making their job infinitely easier. Seriously, this is really becoming an issue. As I pointed out in a bug I filed for a stable KDE (for which I apologize, I should have looked here first), some people are leaving Gentoo because of this slow upgrade process.Honestly, if they're leaving over something so minor, they're free togo.We're not a commercial distribution.We don't sell Gentoo.We'renot concerned with market share. The classical answer from devs is it's ready when it's ready. From a user point of view this is very, very vague. Please give users a more clear explanation, this creates great frustration when looking at other distributions. Because it's stable there.As I stated above, they have a *much* lower barrier of entry for making something stable than we do.We've tried making this explanation overand over again.The problem is that every single version of $package,people don't look at the last explanation and ask again... and again... and again... and again.It gets very old to answer the same questionover and over again.The simple answer is really when we don't havemajor showstopper bugs anymore.Again, remember that we have to support countless combinations from our users.Other distributions needto support only one.They can use forms of tricks to get it to compilethat *one* time, including adding patches and other things that might not be suitable for a from-source distribution. These are my 2 cents as a user. One that loves Gentoo. One that loves KDE. One that's frustrated by the current situation. I am a CS so I know how hard programming can be, don't get me wrong there. I do appreciate what you guys do. But I can't understand why you do it this way right now.Quite simply, we don't want to give you crap.If we followed others blindly, as so many users suggest, then we would have stabilized KDE 3.5 ages ago, and every single one of you KDE userswould be complaining about how our QA sucks because KDE doesn't compileor breaks badly in so many places.We would hear about how Gentoo sucks where they can't even test such a major application as KDE properly.Wewould have users leaving in droves.Now, we can't have both faststabilization *and* actual stability, so we err on the side of caution. We don't like hearing complaints any more than anyone else, but we'drather hear a few why isn't KDE stable yet questions than *everyone*saying we suck because KDE is broken.I hope that sums it up for you. By the way, this isn't just for KDE.This is how we do *every* package.--Chris GianelloniRelease Engineering - Strategic Leadx86 Architecture TeamGames - DeveloperGentoo Linux -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)iD8DBQBEWfErkT4lNIS36YERAtKVAKDE9aVxS6dq34fleM1WPi2vOC9TGgCfb+ctGhTF595T05xwiL60103fkAk==YYvC-END PGP SIGNATURE- -- --Argument against Linux number 6,033:...So this is like most Linux viruses. You have to download the virus yourself, become root, install it and then run it. Seems like a lot of work just to experience what you can get on Windows with a lot less trouble.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
Paul, That cleared it up for me, thanks Jeff.On 04/05/06, Paul de Vrieze [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually the testing keywords are not for unstable packages. If somethingis unstable it must be masked. If we however want to test our packagingwe put it in ~arch. If something is in ~arch that means that it works for the packager, but that your mileage may vary. ~arch may sometimes haveunexpected problems, especially involving migration from old versions tonew versions. Actually most time is spent on ~arch, as there is where development happens. As a package is seen to be stable, then it getspromoted to arch. This is just a change of the keyword. The developerthen goes on to newer versions of the package.Paul-- Paul de VriezeGentoo DeveloperMail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net -- --Argument against Linux number 6,033:...So this is like most Linux viruses. You have to download the virus yourself, become root, install it and then run it. Seems like a lot of work just to experience what you can get on Windows with a lot less trouble.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
I think the problem is that Gentoo is falling into the same sandtrap the Debian project has been mired in forever. arch and ~arch are polarizinginto stable, but horribly out of date, and maybe it will work.This leads to people trying to maintain a frankenstinian /etc/portage/package.keywords file, constantly adding to itand never knowing when things can be removed from it.I would suggest opening a middle ground tag, where things can be moved to from ~arch when they work for reasonable configuration values, but still haveopen bugs for some people.That way, people who prefer stability over the latest features can run arch,and everyone who bitches about packages being out of date can run the middle tag, and ~arch can be kept for testing.--gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing listOr maybe we could move to a fixed release cycle. Debian uses 18 (?) months, but maybe a 3- or 6-month release cycle would suit us better Jeff.-- --Argument against Linux number 6,033:...So this is like most Linux viruses. You have to download the virus yourself, become root, install it and then run it. Seems like a lot of work just to experience what you can get on Windows with a lot less trouble.
