Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On Sun, 15 Feb 2015 01:32:40 +0800 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: On 4 February 2015 at 17:26, Alexis Ballier aball...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wed, 4 Feb 2015 10:12:12 +0100 Ulrich Mueller u...@gentoo.org wrote: With the recent introduction of the libav USE flag, the Gentoo default for ffmpeg vs libav is more pronounced than it was before (with libav being listed first in || ( ) dependencies). In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982 several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg. So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we prefer libav over ffmpeg? good luck ! wait for other opinions, but I'd say: libav has a cleaner codebase and stricter development rules. (NB: some gentoo devs are member of the core libav dev team) IMHO, from a pure consumer POV where I want to play a random video and my programs using the libraries not to break, ffmpeg is much better (more codecs get in faster, API is preserved a bit longer), so I never understood nor agreed with that choice of default. I think for our users the latter is more important. After all the discussion we had here and on the forums, I propose we change the default to ffmpeg. Thoughts? I'd say let libav be default in developer profiles, ffmpeg in base. It's good to have the stricter one default for developers in order not to make it completely unusable for users. Alexis.
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On 4 February 2015 at 17:26, Alexis Ballier aball...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wed, 4 Feb 2015 10:12:12 +0100 Ulrich Mueller u...@gentoo.org wrote: With the recent introduction of the libav USE flag, the Gentoo default for ffmpeg vs libav is more pronounced than it was before (with libav being listed first in || ( ) dependencies). In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982 several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg. So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we prefer libav over ffmpeg? good luck ! wait for other opinions, but I'd say: libav has a cleaner codebase and stricter development rules. (NB: some gentoo devs are member of the core libav dev team) IMHO, from a pure consumer POV where I want to play a random video and my programs using the libraries not to break, ffmpeg is much better (more codecs get in faster, API is preserved a bit longer), so I never understood nor agreed with that choice of default. I think for our users the latter is more important. After all the discussion we had here and on the forums, I propose we change the default to ffmpeg. Thoughts? -- Cheers, Ben | yngwin Gentoo developer
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On Sat, 7 Feb 2015 00:03:26 +0100 Jason A. Donenfeld zx...@gentoo.org wrote: Welp, the votes clearly show ffmpeg is desired by users. Can we stop this nonsense and just do that? The people have spoken. Usually when there's a forums poll, the wise course of action is to do the opposite of what it says. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
Welp, the votes clearly show ffmpeg is desired by users. Can we stop this nonsense and just do that? The people have spoken. Ffmpeg shall be default.
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On 7 February 2015 at 07:03, Jason A. Donenfeld zx...@gentoo.org wrote: Welp, the votes clearly show ffmpeg is desired by users. Can we stop this nonsense and just do that? The people have spoken. Ffmpeg shall be default. Except Gentoo is not a democracy. It is still important data to take into consideration tho. -- Cheers, Ben | yngwin Gentoo developer
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hiya, On 06/02/15 11:49, Ben de Groot wrote: Since we introduced the libav useflag, we have now a way to finally make mpv-0.7* (using the upstream recommended ffmpeg as default) visible to ~arch users, without the need to unmask it. Users who wish to use libav with it, can do so by unmasking the useflag and the relevant libav version. (While before they would have had to unmask both mpv and libav. The resulting change is minor.) I guess I see knowing how to unmask USE flags (uncommon event) as more difficult than unmasking a couple of packages (much more common event). It's also particularly confusing given that there was a news article published saying libav was now the default and that people could explicitly swap to mpv with libav. The news article might have been published prematurely or without checking, I've no idea. Either way, what's going on at the moment is causing users confusion, and I was just suggesting that the decisions be made first and then action taken, rather than this back and forth we're having with packages and USE flags and masking of all kinds, which is not giving our users a good experience, even if the change is for the best. Mike 5:) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0 iKYEARECAGYFAlTVeoJfFIAALgAoaXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3Bl bnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldEZGQjEyM0ZDRDBCRjcwREE1MzA0MjNBREJC QkFENkEyNkMyMDE1N0EACgkQu7rWomwgFXpcrgCggW9zbw+7ZTfO2CZ75w40voS4 Fp4An31h4XyQ6YGnvEw1Py7bdEcXRDqk =Or5S -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
Il 04/02/2015 10:24, Ben de Groot ha scritto: From an upstream that I care about: https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav Based on that I would say we should switch back the default to ffmpeg. on that page I see a information about why gentoo should stick with libav, because cleaner code for a distro is very important. also ebuilds seem to reflect that: grep -v -e '^\s*#' -e '^\s*$' ffmpeg/ffmpeg-2.5.3.ebuild | wc -l 299 grep -v -e '^\s*#' -e '^\s*$' libav/libav-9.17.ebuild | wc -l 248 cheers, Francesco Riosa
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On 6 February 2015 at 00:20, hasufell hasuf...@gentoo.org wrote: Ben de Groot: On 4 February 2015 at 21:49, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn chith...@gentoo.org wrote: Ulrich Mueller schrieb: In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982 several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg. To help finding out what users actually think, I added a poll to the forum to ask them about their preference. https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1010096.html They seem pretty strongly in favour of changing the default back to ffmpeg: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1010096-postdays-0-postorder-asc-vote-viewresult.html 57% is not pretty strongly. It's a bit more than the half. If we add up the votes to a simpler overview, we get at this point: ffmpeg 66.4% libav8.2% don't care 24.0% other1.4% I think that's pretty clear. -- Cheers, Ben | yngwin Gentoo developer
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
viv...@gmail.com viv...@gmail.com napisał: Il 04/02/2015 10:24, Ben de Groot ha scritto: From an upstream that I care about: https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav Based on that I would say we should switch back the default to ffmpeg. on that page I see a information about why gentoo should stick with libav, because cleaner code for a distro is very important. also ebuilds seem to reflect that: grep -v -e '^\s*#' -e '^\s*$' ffmpeg/ffmpeg-2.5.3.ebuild | wc -l 299 grep -v -e '^\s*#' -e '^\s*$' libav/libav-9.17.ebuild | wc -l 248 Just to be clear, please don't judge projects by ebuild maintainer's code quality or style. Not to mention that positive quality factors such as having more configure options increase ebuild line count easily. cheers, Francesco Riosa -- Michał Górny
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
Rich Freeman schrieb: On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 11:20 AM, hasufell hasuf...@gentoo.org wrote: 57% is not pretty strongly. It's a bit more than the half. Sure, but libav as the default only got 5% of the vote. I think the poll suffers from over-complexity. :) I tried to choose the options' wording carefully, in order to get as much information as possible from a single poll. As it currently stands we have 144 votes (sorted descending by popularity). Time for some preliminary analysis: Which should be the default in Gentoo, ffmpeg or libav? A. I prefer ffmpeg, and it should be the default. 61% B. I don't care about the default, but it should be easy to use the non-default, even if that causes a less smooth experience for users of the default. 14% C. I don't care about the default, but users should have a smooth experience with it, even if that means additional hardships for those who choose differently. 6% D. I prefer libav, and it should be the default. 5% E. I prefer ffmpeg, but I am fine if libav is the default. 4% F. I prefer libav, but I am fine if ffmpeg is the default. 2% G. I don't care either way. 2% H. None of the above/Other 1% There were two respondents for Other. The first does not really consider ffmpeg and libav to be interchangeable packages any more. The second said that he wants to be able to install both ffmpeg and libav at the same time, even if that is currently infeasible. This means that, 61% disagree with the current default and want it changed to ffmpeg (A), while 38% are fine with the current default libav (B+C+D+E+F+G). 5% would be against changing the default from libav (E), 94% would be fine if the default was changed to ffmpeg (A+B+C+D+F+G). 22% of respondents did not express a preference for either ffmpeg/libav (B+C+G), including 14% who say that it should still be easy to choose the non-default option, even at the expense of a few bumps in the user experience (B), 6% who say that a good user experience is more important than having the choice (C). In case the default remains at libav, 79% would want to have an easy way of switching to ffmpeg (A+B+E). In case the default is changed to ffmpeg, 21% would want to have an easy way of switching to libav (B+D+F). Best regards, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On 4 February 2015 at 20:43, Mike Auty ike...@gentoo.org wrote: Whilst the default *is* still in place (and particularly after the recent news article detailing that users should be using libav), could we please keep commits like the following until *after* we've made an agreed upon decision please? http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/package.mask?r1=1.16328r2=1.16329 Anyone using mpv (because mplayer does not work with libav, and they were directed to use mpv by the news article) will now be hit by blockers attempting to reinstall ffmpeg. It's fine to have disagreements, but airing them in front of the users like this is not an ideal situation... That would suggest political motives or something of the sort. But that is far from the truth. Newer mpv versions were masked for many months, for no apparently valid reason, except that the libav versions on which it optionally (!) depended were masked. Since we introduced the libav useflag, we have now a way to finally make mpv-0.7* (using the upstream recommended ffmpeg as default) visible to ~arch users, without the need to unmask it. Users who wish to use libav with it, can do so by unmasking the useflag and the relevant libav version. (While before they would have had to unmask both mpv and libav. The resulting change is minor.) Fewer users will now need to unmask mpv-0.7*. Besides, it is a reminder that upstream recommends ffmpeg, which comes as a surprise to many. And as a result, we can unmask the newest version of smplayer, which can now function as a GUI frontend for mpv as well. I would say this is an overall improvement for our end-users. I don't want to get into the politics of it, but just look at it from a practical perspective. -- Cheers, Ben | yngwin Gentoo developer
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/04/2015 04:43 AM, Mike Auty wrote: It's fine to have disagreements, but airing them in front of the users like this is not an ideal situation... As a user and prospective developer, why? Transparency is important to open communities like Gentoo's, and reading the discussions can give users and developers alike some context that they wouldn't normally get if they hadn't seen the discussion(s). -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJU1GVIAAoJEJUrb08JgYgH4AIH/j68vCFgRO8xm19TW/AqUlmH eT0JLeabLgPx7TDvaXPXGZo23acwAn6c9G/d+xFgX2oYKj+Cz+KSDOK9eQ/84w+U 3HYvA3jZUfYHcueiJK8/f2JPZ3sfdEwcARl3qjjMWpHSx5u97VA47VkRhQtP7VAF tktKc1HePqY/HjK+/dYyT1TqxQL8PPGK3k3jbdHQ37k2WxiWrbhTSsrkPXJskwuD Zaqga8I4OcakTIJ8HNqLCGgzPnNne4O9aLFYgTxpSaEiogObJ4oC8OF+iuJs+sr3 a39S4RExHjaUy63UNb/l32HDnwy+gSbgb4dse69Ylzt0MwxvMP+KNxEf9MMhV2M= =/4Pe -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On 4 February 2015 at 21:49, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn chith...@gentoo.org wrote: Ulrich Mueller schrieb: In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982 several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg. To help finding out what users actually think, I added a poll to the forum to ask them about their preference. https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1010096.html They seem pretty strongly in favour of changing the default back to ffmpeg: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1010096-postdays-0-postorder-asc-vote-viewresult.html -- Cheers, Ben | yngwin Gentoo developer
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 11:20 AM, hasufell hasuf...@gentoo.org wrote: 57% is not pretty strongly. It's a bit more than the half. Sure, but libav as the default only got 5% of the vote. I think the poll suffers from over-complexity. :) I don't think we should be putting all of our stock in forum polls, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that ffmpeg gets a lot more use in general. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
Ben de Groot: On 4 February 2015 at 21:49, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn chith...@gentoo.org wrote: Ulrich Mueller schrieb: In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982 several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg. To help finding out what users actually think, I added a poll to the forum to ask them about their preference. https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1010096.html They seem pretty strongly in favour of changing the default back to ffmpeg: https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1010096-postdays-0-postorder-asc-vote-viewresult.html 57% is not pretty strongly. It's a bit more than the half.
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 10:12:12 Ulrich Mueller u...@gentoo.org napisał(a): So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we prefer libav over ffmpeg? We have a developer inside I think it's time to end this cronyism, and instead examine things on their technical merit alone. I believe we should go with the opinion of the upstream mpv authors, who make a very clear and compelling case for ffmpeg as default.
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 17:24:03 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org napisał(a): On 4 February 2015 at 17:21, Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 10:12:12 Ulrich Mueller u...@gentoo.org napisał(a): With the recent introduction of the libav USE flag, the Gentoo default for ffmpeg vs libav is more pronounced than it was before (with libav being listed first in || ( ) dependencies). In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982 several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg. So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we prefer libav over ffmpeg? From an upstream that I care about: https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav Based on that I would say we should switch back the default to ffmpeg. From what I heard, that upstream likes to change its opinion frequently, pretty much based on which upstream he is pissed at the moment. But it's just rumors. -- Best regards, Michał Górny pgpTlujFP6Odr.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
With the recent introduction of the libav USE flag, the Gentoo default for ffmpeg vs libav is more pronounced than it was before (with libav being listed first in || ( ) dependencies). In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982 several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg. So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we prefer libav over ffmpeg? Ulrich pgptP0wFCiZ6W.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On 4 February 2015 at 17:21, Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 10:12:12 Ulrich Mueller u...@gentoo.org napisał(a): With the recent introduction of the libav USE flag, the Gentoo default for ffmpeg vs libav is more pronounced than it was before (with libav being listed first in || ( ) dependencies). In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982 several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg. So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we prefer libav over ffmpeg? From an upstream that I care about: https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav Based on that I would say we should switch back the default to ffmpeg. -- Cheers, Ben | yngwin Gentoo developer
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: From what I heard, that upstream likes to change its opinion frequently, pretty much based on which upstream he is pissed at the moment. But it's just rumors. This is most certainly untrue. Please stop disseminating FUD like this. There is zero factual basis for it. Fortunately, the wiki history of the above linked page retains its history, and we can quickly disprove this petty claim: https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav/_history
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 10:12:12 Ulrich Mueller u...@gentoo.org napisał(a): With the recent introduction of the libav USE flag, the Gentoo default for ffmpeg vs libav is more pronounced than it was before (with libav being listed first in || ( ) dependencies). In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982 several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg. So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we prefer libav over ffmpeg? We have a developer inside, so it's easier to bring some sanity in. Then ffmpeg people copy each patch, so double benefit for us :P. -- Best regards, Michał Górny pgprRVYqtSbyR.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
El mié, 04-02-2015 a las 17:24 +0800, Ben de Groot escribió: [...] From an upstream that I care about: https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav Based on that I would say we should switch back the default to ffmpeg. Thanks a lot for the link
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 10:24 AM, Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: From an upstream that I care about: https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav Based on that I would say we should switch back the default to ffmpeg. I can vouch for the content of that link and the expert opinion of its author. As a consequence, I would high recommend switching back to ffmpeg as default.
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On Wed, 4 Feb 2015 10:12:12 +0100 Ulrich Mueller u...@gentoo.org wrote: With the recent introduction of the libav USE flag, the Gentoo default for ffmpeg vs libav is more pronounced than it was before (with libav being listed first in || ( ) dependencies). In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982 several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg. So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we prefer libav over ffmpeg? good luck ! wait for other opinions, but I'd say: libav has a cleaner codebase and stricter development rules. (NB: some gentoo devs are member of the core libav dev team) IMHO, from a pure consumer POV where I want to play a random video and my programs using the libraries not to break, ffmpeg is much better (more codecs get in faster, API is preserved a bit longer), so I never understood nor agreed with that choice of default. Alexis.
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 09:49:02 Ian Stakenvicius a...@gentoo.org napisał(a): -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 04/02/15 09:27 AM, Michał Górny wrote: Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 14:41:06 Alexis Ballier aball...@gentoo.org napisał(a): On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 14:30:56 +0100 Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: It wasn't only weak but quite inconsistent too. Some packages had their own || deps, with different order. this was to reflect upstreams preferences The point is, the default was so weak that Portage's decision could have been randomly influenced by ordering of packages in depgraph. In other words, we didn't actually have a default, we just had a means that portage would choose one of them if the end-user haddn't chosen already. This to me is still the ideal solution (not the || deps due to the issues they have, but the soft default) -- why is it that we need to actually choose or force a default implementation in the profiles anyhow?? Because binary flag has to have a value :P. And anyway, having a default has the advantage that people don't have to bother when they don't care. -- Best regards, Michał Górny pgpabqog1aiSm.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 18:01:57 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org napisał(a): On 4 February 2015 at 17:55, Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 17:24:03 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org napisał(a): From an upstream that I care about: https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav Based on that I would say we should switch back the default to ffmpeg. From what I heard, that upstream likes to change its opinion frequently, pretty much based on which upstream he is pissed at the moment. But it's just rumors. Rumours have no place here. Let's focus on the technical arguments. If I were to be picky, 'upstream I care about' is not a technical argument either. -- Best regards, Michał Górny pgpThYJ16mkZG.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 13:57:55 +0100 Luca Barbato lu_z...@gentoo.org wrote: On 04/02/15 11:40, Michał Górny wrote: It's easiest to look at the trackers: - ffmpeg-2 [1] -- 26/26 fixed, - ffmpeg-2.4 [2] -- 3/3 fixed (but unsure if there won't be more), - libav-9 [3] -- 55/55 fixed, - libav-10 [4] -- 11/25 fixed. No offense here but in my experience, ffmpeg support in Gentoo is fixed faster than libav. Given I have to fix the downstream issues first in Libav and then whenever FFmpeg decides to drop the stale API they get those for free I'm not surprised. yeah, the above numbers are a bit unfair since most libav-9 fixes/bugs would have applied to ffmpeg 2 I think. Alexis.
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
I'd like to insert, early on in this thread, that we must leave personal biases and associations *out* of this discussion, and instead focus on technical merits and analyses only. Thus, I would *strongly encourage* that authors of libav and ffmpeg will *refrain from joining this discussion* in order to keep unnecessary biases out, which perhaps the sole exception of sending stray commit sha1s along if needed. I believe previous Gentoo policy to have been ruled by this non-technical aegis.
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Whilst the default *is* still in place (and particularly after the recent news article detailing that users should be using libav), could we please keep commits like the following until *after* we've made an agreed upon decision please? http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/package.mask?r1=1.16328r2=1.16329 Anyone using mpv (because mplayer does not work with libav, and they were directed to use mpv by the news article) will now be hit by blockers attempting to reinstall ffmpeg. It's fine to have disagreements, but airing them in front of the users like this is not an ideal situation... Mike 5:) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0 iKYEARECAGYFAlTSE/pfFIAALgAoaXNzdWVyLWZwckBub3RhdGlvbnMub3Bl bnBncC5maWZ0aGhvcnNlbWFuLm5ldEZGQjEyM0ZDRDBCRjcwREE1MzA0MjNBREJC QkFENkEyNkMyMDE1N0EACgkQu7rWomwgFXos8ACeIq/rqIdp9DAowP2qVyrUQFfn 4rUAn1coOLGSk60pA9VSbKdXBnPiiSki =aOWg -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On 04/02/15 11:40, Michał Górny wrote: It's easiest to look at the trackers: - ffmpeg-2 [1] -- 26/26 fixed, - ffmpeg-2.4 [2] -- 3/3 fixed (but unsure if there won't be more), - libav-9 [3] -- 55/55 fixed, - libav-10 [4] -- 11/25 fixed. No offense here but in my experience, ffmpeg support in Gentoo is fixed faster than libav. Given I have to fix the downstream issues first in Libav and then whenever FFmpeg decides to drop the stale API they get those for free I'm not surprised. As per Libav, I managed to convince my fellow developers not to drop 2-years old APIs for some more time, since there is enough orphaned software using it (thus why libav 10 and 11 had been kept API (source) compatible) and we (as Libav) spent a decent chunk of time to get updates for a good number of them. Sadly the balance between the requirements of our active users, that demands better APIs and the latent users, that did not update since version 0.8 or so, was a bit too much toward the former. I'd like not to have to discuss more than this since I'm strongly related to Libav and I have no time to get involved in a discussion with fans. lu
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
Ulrich Mueller u...@gentoo.org napisał: On Wed, 04 Feb 2015, Matthias Maier wrote: So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we prefer libav over ffmpeg? *ugh* Please no. What about leaving the default (if there ever was such a default) as it is and avoid the otherwise imminent trainwreck? As I said, so far the default was very weak, namely by ordering of dependencies in a || ( ) group. This has changed since the libav flag is now enabled in profiles: http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/make.defaults?r1=1.121r2=1.122 Ulrich It wasn't only weak but quite inconsistent too. Some packages had their own || deps, with different order. -- Michał Górny
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 14:30:56 +0100 Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: It wasn't only weak but quite inconsistent too. Some packages had their own || deps, with different order. this was to reflect upstreams preferences
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On 04/02/15 14:25, Jason A. Donenfeld wrote: By now it should be clear to most people that everything goes smoother, works better for the end user, and causes less breakage when *ffmpeg is the default, not libav*. Works better is a matter of perception, if I (and the few that help me not afraid of having rabid FFmpeg-fans bite them) fix the bulk of the issues early surely those that use FFmpeg get a smoother experience. Again it is one project parasiting everything the other does. Currently I'm trying to get Libav not to drop the old APIs as hard as I could so at least that part would be even. Probably I should stop caring about the breakages myself and wait until they hit FFmpeg and let other do the work so I can spend my spare time in implementing more features instead. lu
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 5:09 AM, Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 11:04:57 Jason A. Donenfeld zx...@gentoo.org napisał(a): I'd like to insert, early on in this thread, that we must leave personal biases and associations *out* of this discussion, and instead focus on technical merits and analyses only. Thus, I would *strongly encourage* that authors of libav and ffmpeg will *refrain from joining this discussion* in order to keep unnecessary biases out, which perhaps the sole exception of sending stray commit sha1s along if needed. I believe previous Gentoo policy to have been ruled by this non-technical aegis. I disagree. The authors/maintainers of both have the most to say here since they actually may know *something* rather than the FUD that's been going around like forever. ++ Those with the greatest stake in a decision are often the ones who have the most information to provide. That does of course include a risk of bias, but you don't get the best decision possible by having a conversation limited to people who have never heard of ffmpeg or libav. :) -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
Ulrich Mueller schrieb: In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982 several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg. To help finding out what users actually think, I added a poll to the forum to ask them about their preference. https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1010096.html Best regards, Chí-Thanh Christopher Nguyễn
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 9:49 AM, Ian Stakenvicius a...@gentoo.org wrote: This to me is still the ideal solution (not the || deps due to the issues they have, but the soft default) -- why is it that we need to actually choose or force a default implementation in the profiles anyhow?? I think this is an option that should probably at least be on the table. We seem to have about a half-dozen ways we can handle this, and they all involve pain to users/developers/etc just in different ways. If this nonsense keeps up all that much longer, I wonder if we'll start seeing everybody just bundling their preferred implementation in their packages. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On Wednesday 04 February 2015 09:49:02 Ian Stakenvicius wrote: In other words, we didn't actually have a default, we just had a means that portage would choose one of them if the end-user haddn't chosen already. This to me is still the ideal solution (not the || deps due to the issues they have, but the soft default) -- why is it that we need to actually choose or force a default implementation in the profiles anyhow?? Because it was causing obscure blocks when trying to build/update sufficiently complex system (e.g. pulling in mplayer and vlc simultaneously). I hit this a few times recently while rebuilding a few systems, which caused me to go and search for wtf all this mess is about? and finding exactly that link with explanation that was already cited in this thread (by developer of some viewer named similarly to vlc - vmp??). On the technical side: setting -libav +ffmpeg explicitly seemed to work the best. I had an impression that the other way around was not as robust - I tried to enforce libav, but that was before reading on this issue, so I don't remember what was the state of ffmpeg. I just remember having to look at the emerge --tree -pv output to figure out that these two flags were in conflict.. George
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 04/02/15 09:27 AM, Michał Górny wrote: Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 14:41:06 Alexis Ballier aball...@gentoo.org napisał(a): On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 14:30:56 +0100 Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: It wasn't only weak but quite inconsistent too. Some packages had their own || deps, with different order. this was to reflect upstreams preferences The point is, the default was so weak that Portage's decision could have been randomly influenced by ordering of packages in depgraph. In other words, we didn't actually have a default, we just had a means that portage would choose one of them if the end-user haddn't chosen already. This to me is still the ideal solution (not the || deps due to the issues they have, but the soft default) -- why is it that we need to actually choose or force a default implementation in the profiles anyhow?? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2 iF4EAREIAAYFAlTSMV4ACgkQ2ugaI38ACPDlOwD+JHd0OPGfcz0m/i4+nJW7jWSF hrpLj7kJrSuWuMUDYQMA/03GKhbIr9ZXNb3OetA0qUHKcrcrEnbirKiFO8vbD5Ex =/WPf -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On 4 February 2015 at 17:55, Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 17:24:03 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org napisał(a): From an upstream that I care about: https://github.com/mpv-player/mpv/wiki/FFmpeg-versus-Libav Based on that I would say we should switch back the default to ffmpeg. From what I heard, that upstream likes to change its opinion frequently, pretty much based on which upstream he is pissed at the moment. But it's just rumors. Rumours have no place here. Let's focus on the technical arguments. -- Cheers, Ben | yngwin Gentoo developer
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 11:04:57 Jason A. Donenfeld zx...@gentoo.org napisał(a): I'd like to insert, early on in this thread, that we must leave personal biases and associations *out* of this discussion, and instead focus on technical merits and analyses only. Thus, I would *strongly encourage* that authors of libav and ffmpeg will *refrain from joining this discussion* in order to keep unnecessary biases out, which perhaps the sole exception of sending stray commit sha1s along if needed. I believe previous Gentoo policy to have been ruled by this non-technical aegis. I disagree. The authors/maintainers of both have the most to say here since they actually may know *something* rather than the FUD that's been going around like forever. -- Best regards, Michał Górny pgpVaBzXjZU_P.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
El mié, 04-02-2015 a las 11:40 +0100, Michał Górny escribió: [...] It's easiest to look at the trackers: - ffmpeg-2 [1] -- 26/26 fixed, - ffmpeg-2.4 [2] -- 3/3 fixed (but unsure if there won't be more), - libav-9 [3] -- 55/55 fixed, - libav-10 [4] -- 11/25 fixed. No offense here but in my experience, ffmpeg support in Gentoo is fixed faster than libav. [1]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476490 [2]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=524568 [3]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443230 [4]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=509294 Also I am unsure how many packages are working with recent libav versions: https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=474408
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 14:41:06 Alexis Ballier aball...@gentoo.org napisał(a): On Wed, 04 Feb 2015 14:30:56 +0100 Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: It wasn't only weak but quite inconsistent too. Some packages had their own || deps, with different order. this was to reflect upstreams preferences The point is, the default was so weak that Portage's decision could have been randomly influenced by ordering of packages in depgraph. -- Best regards, Michał Górny pgpUKXBtgB1AG.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
Dnia 2015-02-04, o godz. 10:26:06 Alexis Ballier aball...@gentoo.org napisał(a): On Wed, 4 Feb 2015 10:12:12 +0100 Ulrich Mueller u...@gentoo.org wrote: With the recent introduction of the libav USE flag, the Gentoo default for ffmpeg vs libav is more pronounced than it was before (with libav being listed first in || ( ) dependencies). In the replies to http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic.php?p=7694982 several users have expressed their preference for ffmpeg. So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we prefer libav over ffmpeg? good luck ! I pretty much agree with Alexis' points. To clarify... wait for other opinions, but I'd say: libav has a cleaner codebase and stricter development rules. (NB: some gentoo devs are member of the core libav dev team) I'd say both projects suck hard at lack of understanding of API/ABI stability. However, if one of them is going to finally get some stability, it's rather going to be libav. But we're far from that, so... IMHO, from a pure consumer POV where I want to play a random video and my programs using the libraries not to break, ffmpeg is much better (more codecs get in faster, API is preserved a bit longer), so I never understood nor agreed with that choice of default. It's easiest to look at the trackers: - ffmpeg-2 [1] -- 26/26 fixed, - ffmpeg-2.4 [2] -- 3/3 fixed (but unsure if there won't be more), - libav-9 [3] -- 55/55 fixed, - libav-10 [4] -- 11/25 fixed. No offense here but in my experience, ffmpeg support in Gentoo is fixed faster than libav. [1]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=476490 [2]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=524568 [3]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=443230 [4]:https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=509294 -- Best regards, Michał Górny pgpaHMWCyiOt5.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we prefer libav over ffmpeg? *ugh* Please no. What about leaving the default (if there ever was such a default) as it is and avoid the otherwise imminent trainwreck? Best, Matthias signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
On Wed, 04 Feb 2015, Matthias Maier wrote: So can someone please remind me what are the technical reasons why we prefer libav over ffmpeg? *ugh* Please no. What about leaving the default (if there ever was such a default) as it is and avoid the otherwise imminent trainwreck? As I said, so far the default was very weak, namely by ordering of dependencies in a || ( ) group. This has changed since the libav flag is now enabled in profiles: http://sources.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewvc.cgi/gentoo-x86/profiles/base/make.defaults?r1=1.121r2=1.122 Ulrich pgp4oudLNRC7v.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: [gentoo-dev] ffmpeg vs libav choice of default
This to me is still the ideal solution (not the || deps due to the issues they have, but the soft default) -- why is it that we need to actually choose or force a default implementation in the profiles anyhow?? Because blockers resulted whenever two different packages made portage pick two different implementations. Which is a natural result of weak preferences in one place combined with try to avoid uninstalling A and installing B and hard dependencies in another place. Because the messy chaotic virtual solution did not provide any deterministic way to rebuild reverse deps when needed. -- Andreas K. Huettel Gentoo Linux developer kde, council signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
