Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
m h wrote: > Subject says it all. > > This isn't meant as flamebait. I'm running stable on my laptop and > unstable on my desktop. It seems like most KDE release get better > over time, so I'm just wondering what the process is with KDE? > Whether it is meant to be flamebait or not is irrelevant. This list isn't for whining about (the lack of) stable keywords for any particular ebuild or set of ebuilds. -Steve -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 01:05, m h wrote: > This isn't meant as flamebait. I'm running stable on my laptop and > unstable on my desktop. It seems like most KDE release get better > over time, so I'm just wondering what the process is with KDE? KDE 3.5.0 was quite broken -and required more patches than usual to get to an usable state-, KDE 3.5.1 was a bit better but stills some patches were needed, KDE 3.5.2 is in portage since less than a month, and already had a few patches with revbumps to few memleaks and crashes, a new kdelibs revbump is also planned, and umbrello 3.5.2 is regressed compared to 3.5.1 (that still, vanilla, wasn't usable for activity diagrams at all). That said, I doubt we can have anything stable in less that another month or even two. -- Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/ Gentoo/Alt lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE pgpnWmqzKgPOU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On 4/3/06, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tuesday 04 April 2006 01:05, m h wrote: > > This isn't meant as flamebait. I'm running stable on my laptop and > > unstable on my desktop. It seems like most KDE release get better > > over time, so I'm just wondering what the process is with KDE? > KDE 3.5.0 was quite broken -and required more patches than usual to get to an > usable state-, KDE 3.5.1 was a bit better but stills some patches were > needed, KDE 3.5.2 is in portage since less than a month, and already had a > few patches with revbumps to few memleaks and crashes, a new kdelibs revbump > is also planned, and umbrello 3.5.2 is regressed compared to 3.5.1 (that > still, vanilla, wasn't usable for activity diagrams at all). > > That said, I doubt we can have anything stable in less that another month or > even two. > Diego - Thanks for the response. Steve- Sorry to abuse the list. Feel free to point me to the correct place to post this. I noticed it in the forums a few times without any answer. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
Stephen P. Becker wrote: [Mon Apr 03 2006, 07:11:12PM EDT] > Whether it is meant to be flamebait or not is irrelevant. This list > isn't for whining about (the lack of) stable keywords for any > particular ebuild or set of ebuilds. Making this kind of statement without pointing the poster to the appropriate place (and I'm curious too) surely isn't helping anybody. Where do you suggest procedural questions be asked? Aron -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
This is Gentoo. We have a reputation of good community support to maintain here. You're not helping that reputation by being mean to people who ask legitimate questions. The issue that the question may have been sent to the wrong list is irrelevant. RTFM is never the right answer to a question. Kari Hazzard On Monday 03 April 2006 11:11 pm, Stephen P. Becker wrote: > Whether it is meant to be flamebait or not is irrelevant. This list > isn't for whining about (the lack of) stable keywords for any particular > ebuild or set of ebuilds. > > -Steve -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
Kari Hazzard wrote: > This is Gentoo. We have a reputation of good community support to maintain > here. You're not helping that reputation by being mean to people who ask > legitimate questions. The issue that the question may have been sent to the > wrong list is irrelevant. RTFM is never the right answer to a question. I fail to see how pointing out a post was offtopic is mean. Rather, it will save that individual (and hopefully others) from making the same mistake in the future. Also, RTFM is absolutely the right answer more often than not. Otherwise, what is the point of having TFM in the first place? The amusement of those who spent a lot of time and effort writing it? -Steve -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
Kari Hazzard wrote: [Mon Apr 03 2006, 09:16:08PM CDT] > This is Gentoo. We have a reputation of good community support to maintain > here. You're not helping that reputation by being mean to people who ask > legitimate questions. The issue that the question may have been sent to the > wrong list is irrelevant. RTFM is never the right answer to a question. Although I agree with the overall spirit of the comment, I disagree that RTFM is never the right answer. It helps if somebody points out _which_ fine manual to read, but ":help hardcopy" is a much better answer to "How do I print from within vim?" than actual detailed instructions would be. -g2boojum- -- Grant Goodyear Gentoo Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0 9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76 pgphq4eQMaXfj.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
Stephen P. Becker wrote: I fail to see how pointing out a post was offtopic is mean. Rather, it will save that individual (and hopefully others) from making the same mistake in the future. Also, RTFM is absolutely the right answer more often than not. Otherwise, what is the point of having TFM in the first place? The amusement of those who spent a lot of time and effort writing it? RTFM shouldn't be an answer in and of itself. Pointing out which FM would help. Particular sections to note would be great help too considering many FM are really FLarge. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
--- lnxg33k <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > RTFM shouldn't be an answer in and of itself. > Pointing out which FM would help. > Particular sections to note would be great help too > considering many FM are > really FLarge. Good response. Saying RTFM doesn't require any know-how, and it's actually more of a one-up-manship. In fact instead of having a ml, when someone tries to join the ml just have it send a RTFM, RTFF, RTFW email. Would save everyone alot of time and be really helpful. :p Yeah, the arrogance of it really annoys me. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 2:28 am, Stephen P. Becker wrote: > I fail to see how pointing out a post was offtopic is mean. Rather, it > will save that individual (and hopefully others) from making the same > mistake in the future. Then refer the poster to the correct place to send such inquiries. That is the logical way to deal with OT messages. You failed to do this, and instead offered a derrogatory message contributing absolutely nothing positive. > > Also, RTFM is absolutely the right answer more often than not. > Otherwise, what is the point of having TFM in the first place? The > amusement of those who spent a lot of time and effort writing it? > > -Steve TFM exists to be read, yes, but not everyone reads TFM. You are a developer. That's great, I'm sure you can do a lot of things with Gentoo that I'd be completely dumbfounded about, being myself not a developer. If we're going to say that Gentoo is a valid and worthwhile operating system, we need to support that idea by maintaining our image as a group of people, both users and developers. The Gentoo philosophy of continual growth and improvement doesn't just apply to software. It applies to everyone on this list, how they conduct themselves, how they behave. I suggest patching your question-answering skills in light of this bug. :) Kari Hazzard -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
060404 Diego 'Flameeyes' Petten? wrote: > KDE 3.5.0 required more patches than usual to get to an usable state, > KDE 3.5.1 was a bit better but still some patches were needed, > KDE 3.5.2 is in portage since less than a month, and already > had a few patches with revbumps to few memleaks and crashes, > a new kdelibs revbump is also planned > and umbrello 3.5.2 is regressed compared to 3.5.1 . KDE is now modular: is it possible to upgrade some modules, but not others ? Kdelibs would need to be stable, but must everything wait for stragglers ? If I have Kdelibs 3.5.2 , can I still run eg Konsole 3.5.1 ? I have been running a wide variety of KDE 3.5.1 pkgs without any problems & before that ran KDE 3.5.0 successfully; I plan to get 3.5.2 soon. -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban & Community Studies TRANSIT`-O--O---' University of Toronto -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 08:09, Philip Webb wrote: > KDE is now modular: is it possible to upgrade some modules, but not others > ? Kdelibs would need to be stable, but must everything wait for stragglers > ? If I have Kdelibs 3.5.2 , can I still run eg Konsole 3.5.1 ? As modular as it can be, it has to go stable in one piece. -- Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/ Gentoo/Alt lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE pgpUyXSNfFhZR.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On 04/04/06, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > usable state-, KDE 3.5.1 was a bit better but stills some patches were > needed, KDE 3.5.2 is in portage since less than a month, and already had a > few patches with revbumps to few memleaks and crashes, a new kdelibs revbump > is also planned, and umbrello 3.5.2 is regressed compared to 3.5.1 (that > still, vanilla, wasn't usable for activity diagrams at all). Surely the question isn't whether the upgrade is perfect, but whether it's better than the current stable release? 'find /usr/portage/kde-base -name '*3.4.3*.patch' |wc -l' shows 15 patches, 3.5.1 has 11 patches, and 3.5.2 has 6 patches. (I realise that isn't a perfect patch count...) >From the handbook: "The use of ~arch denotes an ebuild requires testing. The use of package.mask denotes that the application or library itself is deemed unstable." As far as I can see the *ebuilds* for kde work fine. If the newer versions of kde have the problems you describe, then they should be package.masked. I think at this point it does more harm than good to be lagging behind the current upstream kde - last time I checked the kde bugzilla wouldn't even accept bug reports for the kde currently marked stable as it was too old, and if bugs can't be filed then it's clearly "unsupported upstream" and time to upgrade. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On Monday 03 April 2006 19:11, Stephen P. Becker wrote: > Whether it is meant to be flamebait or not is irrelevant. This list > isn't for whining about (the lack of) stable keywords for any particular > ebuild or set of ebuilds. Probably missing part of the thread or something, but I think the OP was more looking for information on the stablization process within the kde herd, and there's probably no better place to ask shy of irc than on -dev (and not all people have the luxury of getting on irc). Relax, spb, it's all good :) ~mcummings pgp73kaETDTuf.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
Michael Cummings wrote: > Relax, spb, it's all good :) spb != geoman :) -- cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 11:12, Chris Bainbridge wrote: > Surely the question isn't whether the upgrade is perfect, but whether > it's better than the current stable release? It is not. > 'find /usr/portage/kde-base -name '*3.4.3*.patch' |wc -l' shows 15 > patches, 3.5.1 has 11 patches, and 3.5.2 has 6 patches. (I realise > that isn't a perfect patch count...) Some of the patches are not in files/ for 3.5.x series. Also, many of the problems faced are more severe than 3.4.x series up to now. > As far as I can see the *ebuilds* for kde work fine. If the newer > versions of kde have the problems you describe, then they should be > package.masked. There's a big difference between theory and practice. We already get enough request to mark 3.5 stable (hell we had request to mark it stable when there were at least two systematical crashes for everyone), two weeks after 3.5.0 release IIRC, if we were to put it under package.mask, we really would be submerged by bug reports and mails about that. Anyway, ~arch is not technically broken as we patch that as soon as humanly possible, so it's not a p.mask kind of problem (a part from umbrello, but that's no news at all). I can ensure you we'd like to mark 3.5 stable as much as you do, probably even more as there are fixed things, but it's not possible for now. -- Diego "Flameeyes" Pettenò - http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/ Gentoo/Alt lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE pgpY8EKjgf6os.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 05:42, Jan Kundrát wrote: > Michael Cummings wrote: > > Relax, spb, it's all good :) > > spb != geoman :) BAH! People shouldn't be allowed to have overlapping initials or something /me puts moritorium on other mcummings and MPC's. spb - sorry 'bout that :) pgpWtyJ5bDW7x.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 11:12, Chris Bainbridge wrote: > Surely the question isn't whether the upgrade is perfect, but whether > it's better than the current stable release? Exactly. > (I realise that isn't a perfect patch count...) Exactly. > I think at this point it does more harm than good to be lagging behind > the current upstream kde - last time I checked the kde bugzilla > wouldn't even accept bug reports for the kde currently marked stable > as it was too old, and if bugs can't be filed then it's clearly > "unsupported upstream" and time to upgrade. KDE 3.5.0/1 had grave bugs, leaving users with lost addressbooks and such. KDE 3.5.2 is not even out of our 30 days testing period and I have still a few patches enqueued to be applied. I can live with users complaining, but that doesn't mean it's not going on ones nerve. Especially when developers fall into the chorus, it's getting uneasy. It's ready, when it's ready. Really. Carsten pgp5GodaAekLS.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
060404 Diego 'Flameeyes' Petten? wrote: > On Tuesday 04 April 2006 08:09, Philip Webb wrote: >> KDE is now modular: is it possible to upgrade some modules, >> but not others ? Kdelibs would need to be stable, >> but must everything wait for stragglers ? >> If I have Kdelibs 3.5.2 , can I still run eg Konsole 3.5.1 ? > As modular as it can be, it has to go stable in one piece. Ok, you're the expert. Thanks for the prompt & polite response. It's basically a question how far a user can trust the upstream devs & the KDE project team is one of the most competent among desktop stuff. I will continue to ride the cutting-edge, knowing there's a tiny possibility that something may not be quite right, eg the R-click-menu glitch mentioned in another thread on Gentoo-user today. -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban & Community Studies TRANSIT`-O--O---' University of Toronto -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 04:37, Grant Goodyear wrote: > Although I agree with the overall spirit of the comment, I disagree that > RTFM is never the right answer. It helps if somebody points out _which_ > fine manual to read, but ":help hardcopy" is a much better answer to > "How do I print from within vim?" than actual detailed instructions > would be. I wholeheartly agree, just that the help to help yourself is not what I consider as RTFM. Of course you have to learn the relevant bits yourself, so being kindly pointed to exactly those bits is perfectly fine. Carsten pgp7ABoOBSzpu.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
Kari Hazzard wrote: > On Tuesday 04 April 2006 2:28 am, Stephen P. Becker wrote: >> I fail to see how pointing out a post was offtopic is mean. Rather, it >> will save that individual (and hopefully others) from making the same >> mistake in the future. > > Then refer the poster to the correct place to send such inquiries. That is > the > logical way to deal with OT messages. You failed to do this, and instead > offered a derrogatory message contributing absolutely nothing positive. I hate to break it to you, but there really is no such place for such queries. We generally consider it rude when users whine about stable keywording. Therefore, I don't feel bad about a short response. >> Also, RTFM is absolutely the right answer more often than not. >> Otherwise, what is the point of having TFM in the first place? The >> amusement of those who spent a lot of time and effort writing it? >> >> -Steve > > TFM exists to be read, yes, but not everyone reads TFM. You are a developer. > That's great, I'm sure you can do a lot of things with Gentoo that I'd be > completely dumbfounded about, being myself not a developer. Not really, I can only do what I do because I read stuff. Anybody else can easily do the same. > If we're going to say that Gentoo is a valid and worthwhile operating system, > we need to support that idea by maintaining our image as a group of people, > both users and developers. The Gentoo philosophy of continual growth and > improvement doesn't just apply to software. It applies to everyone on this > list, how they conduct themselves, how they behave. > > I suggest patching your question-answering skills in light of this bug. :) I would like to point out that it was you who flamed me for apparently saying RTFM, when in fact if you read my original email, I did nothing of the sort. I merely pointed out what should have been clear to anyone that signed up for this list, that it is not for whining about arch keywording. Sounds like you had an agenda to bitch about and found my email to be convenient. In other words, you have no point. -Steve -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On Tue, 4 Apr 2006 11:35 am, Stephen P. Becker wrote: I hate to break it to you, but there really is no such place for such queries. We generally consider it rude when users whine about stable keywording. Therefore, I don't feel bad about a short response. If questions on a particular topic get asked frequently, and indeed they do, maybe there should be an official place to ask them. Saying something along the lines of "this is the wrong place to ask, there is no right place, so don't ask at all" to a customer would get any employee of any business fired or given a stern warning instantly. It doesn't matter if the person is customer support, a clerk, a developer, management or whatever. It's unbecoming and does not promote a positive image. Not really, I can only do what I do because I read stuff. Anybody else can easily do the same. That makes the assumption everyone has the same amount of knowledge you did when you started using Gentoo. I don't know C#, for example. As a result, any attempt to program with Mono would be futile and result in failure. I would like to point out that it was you who flamed me for apparently saying RTFM, when in fact if you read my original email, I did nothing of the sort. You gave a logical RTFM. You're being literal with words when the meaning of what you said should be fairly clear. You didn't want to answer the question, so you flamed the person who asked instead of answering or defering to a more helpful individual. I merely pointed out what should have been clear to anyone that signed up for this list, that it is not for whining about arch keywording. Not everyone is like you. There are all sorts of different people out there who process information in a lot of different ways. Without a stated correct place for asking questions about keywording, it wouldn't be hard to rationalise that the proper place is the dev mailing list. You say it should be obvious like it's fact. Not everything is obvious to everyone--Not everyone is a Steve or Stephanie. They may interpret conveyed information in different ways and the ambiguity does not help at all. There's a reason devs rarely answer questions. Devs should do what they do best, code and fix problems according to SE principles. If you really want to answer questions, go ahead, but if you don't want to be helpful, don't say anything. Someone else who does want to will chime in with a helpful response. Sounds like you had an agenda to bitch about and found my email to be convenient. In other words, you have no point. -Steve I do have an agenda. I won't deny that. I think the Gentoo philosophy is essentially perfect, both as a development philosophy and also as an operational philosophy. When I see a dev who violates this philosophy with the way they behave, I am inclined to call them on it. Kari Hazzard -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
Kari Hazzard wrote: > > On Tue, 4 Apr 2006 11:35 am, Stephen P. Becker wrote: >> I hate to break it to you, but there really is no such place for such >> queries. We generally consider it rude when users whine about stable >> keywording. Therefore, I don't feel bad about a short response. > > If questions on a particular topic get asked frequently, and indeed they > do, maybe there should be an official place to ask them. Saying > something along the lines of "this is the wrong place to ask, there is > no right place, so don't ask at all" to a customer would get any > employee of any business fired or given a stern warning instantly. It > doesn't matter if the person is customer support, a clerk, a developer, > management or whatever. It's unbecoming and does not promote a positive > image. If we had an official place where people could complain about ebuilds not being stabilized, then I have a feeling most developers would avoid it like the plague. Stuff like this is along the same lines as the "bump it!!!eleventy-one11!11" bugs which get filed the minute there is a new release of some program. We tend to hate that, and there isn't much that could be done other than closing them with prejudice. >> Not really, I can only do what I do because I read stuff. Anybody >> else can easily do the same. > > That makes the assumption everyone has the same amount of knowledge you > did when you started using Gentoo. > > I don't know C#, for example. As a result, any attempt to program with > Mono would be futile and result in failure. So? The only language which I know is fortran, and then I always have to look at my fortran references when I want to write a new program. Otherwise, I know just enough about bash syntax to get around ebuilds, and even then I always look at other ebuilds or references for examples when I need to do anything. The point here is that anybody with any sort of training in some sort of computer related field probably knows a hell of a lot more than me by default. Yet, I'm perfectly capable of doing Gentoo development by RTFM. >> I would like to point out that it was you who flamed me for apparently >> saying RTFM, when in fact if you read my original email, I did nothing >> of the sort. > > You gave a logical RTFM. You're being literal with words when the > meaning of what you said should be fairly clear. You didn't want to > answer the question, so you flamed the person who asked instead of > answering or defering to a more helpful individual. Not really. I should have actually pointed out that there is no (good) place for such queries originally, but I was doing about 10 things at once, and just sent the typical "don't send offtopic stuff to the gentoo-dev list" reply. Look back through the archives...this is pretty standard. >> I merely pointed out what should have been clear to anyone >> that signed up for this list, that it is not for whining about arch >> keywording. > > Not everyone is like you. There are all sorts of different people out > there who process information in a lot of different ways. Without a > stated correct place for asking questions about keywording, it wouldn't > be hard to rationalise that the proper place is the dev mailing list. Except that it isn't the proper place. It is for discussion of technical matters concerning the development of Gentoo. The closest place that might be sort of on-topic is the gentoo-desktop list, but I generally don't recommend that list because it seems like nobody bothers to answer questions there for the most part. I think the problem is that the RightPeople(TM) (meaning all the members of the teams for each desktop herd) probably aren't subscribed there. > You say it should be obvious like it's fact. Not everything is obvious > to everyone--Not everyone is a Steve or Stephanie. They may interpret > conveyed information in different ways and the ambiguity does not help > at all. It should be obvious to anybody who bothered to read the description for this mailing list before signing up. I can't fix ignorance. > There's a reason devs rarely answer questions. Devs should do what they > do best, code and fix problems according to SE principles. If you really > want to answer questions, go ahead, but if you don't want to be helpful, > don't say anything. Someone else who does want to will chime in with a > helpful response. My reponse was helpful. I guarantee you (unless that person is really dense) that they won't use this list to complain about stable keywording again. Furthermore, any currently subscribed list user who didn't know before will certainly know now. >> Sounds like you had an agenda to bitch about and found my >> email to be convenient. In other words, you have no point. >> >> -Steve > > I do have an agenda. I won't deny that. I think the Gentoo philosophy is > essentially perfect, both as a development philosophy and also as an > operational philosophy. When I see a dev who violates
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
Stephen P. Becker wrote: I fail to see how pointing out a post was offtopic is mean. Rather, it will save that individual (and hopefully others) from making the same mistake in the future. Also, RTFM is absolutely the right answer more often than not. Otherwise, what is the point of having TFM in the first place? The amusement of those who spent a lot of time and effort writing it? That's not the problem. RTFM is never the right answer because 'please, RTM' is. Your mail pointing out that it was off-topic wasn't mean because it pointed out that fact, it was mean because it was written in a form that could have been much more friendlier. A message is usually more than just the information in it. -- Kind Regards, Simon Stelling Gentoo/AMD64 Developer -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
> If we had an official place where people could complain about ebuilds > not being stabilized, then I have a feeling most developers would avoid > it like the plague. Stuff like this is along the same lines as the > "bump it!!!eleventy-one11!11" bugs which get filed the minute there is a > new release of some program. We tend to hate that, and there isn't much > that could be done other than closing them with prejudice. > I'm the OT. So I apologize to all devs whose precious time I have wasted. This post has probably now consumed about 10x as much time as it should've by now. I totally realize that it is probably super annoying to get requests for bumping to stable. And it wasn't my intention at all to put pressure on anyone to bump KDE. I was only curious as to what was holding it up. That was my bad for phrasing my question in such a sort manner (not following the "howto ask smart questions" protocol). I figured since, I'm seeing posts about 2.6.16 going stable in "2-3 weeks" and questions about firefox 1.5, then KDE would be kosher as well (since it is arguable on of the most important apps on the linux desktop). > > >> I would like to point out that it was you who flamed me for apparently > >> saying RTFM, when in fact if you read my original email, I did nothing > >> of the sort. > > > > You gave a logical RTFM. You're being literal with words when the > > meaning of what you said should be fairly clear. You didn't want to > > answer the question, so you flamed the person who asked instead of > > answering or defering to a more helpful individual. > > Not really. I should have actually pointed out that there is no (good) > place for such queries originally, but I was doing about 10 things at > once, and just sent the typical "don't send offtopic stuff to the > gentoo-dev list" reply. Look back through the archives...this is pretty > standard. > > > >> I merely pointed out what should have been clear to anyone > >> that signed up for this list, that it is not for whining about arch > >> keywording. > > > > Not everyone is like you. There are all sorts of different people out > > there who process information in a lot of different ways. Without a > > stated correct place for asking questions about keywording, it wouldn't > > be hard to rationalise that the proper place is the dev mailing list. > > Except that it isn't the proper place. It is for discussion of > technical matters concerning the development of Gentoo. The closest > place that might be sort of on-topic is the gentoo-desktop list, but I > generally don't recommend that list because it seems like nobody bothers > to answer questions there for the most part. I think the problem is > that the RightPeople(TM) (meaning all the members of the teams for each > desktop herd) probably aren't subscribed there. > Sorry I'm not on the desktop list and since I was seeing other posts about marking the kernel and firefox as stable, I figured kde fit in as well. My bad. One solution to naggers like me may be to have dedicated per package wiki/homepages where a status is shown (much like Trac releases). Or at least link to pending bugs. Though I realize that this is probably just more overhead for devs who are already too busy and would rather just code. > > > You say it should be obvious like it's fact. Not everything is obvious > > to everyone--Not everyone is a Steve or Stephanie. They may interpret > > conveyed information in different ways and the ambiguity does not help > > at all. > > It should be obvious to anybody who bothered to read the description for > this mailing list before signing up. I can't fix ignorance. Thanks for the compliment ;) "General Gentoo developer discussion mailing list" is the description... I guess my post was not general enough. ;) > > > > There's a reason devs rarely answer questions. Devs should do what they > > do best, code and fix problems according to SE principles. If you really > > want to answer questions, go ahead, but if you don't want to be helpful, > > don't say anything. Someone else who does want to will chime in with a > > helpful response. > > My reponse was helpful. I guarantee you (unless that person is really > dense) that they won't use this list to complain about stable keywording > again. Furthermore, any currently subscribed list user who didn't know > before will certainly know now. > Hmmm, I really wasn't trying to complain about the keywording of KDE. Sorry if it came out that way. I really just wanted a status update and again, since I saw others I figured it would be ok. In the future I will do the following: * Re-read "howto ask a smart question" * Find a mailing list that looks appropriate by the description * Spam that mailing list * Pending no response, find the dev and email them personally For the benefit of us dense users, please let me know if this works. -matt -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On 2006-04-04, m h <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > You say it should be obvious like it's fact. Not everything is obvious > > > to everyone--Not everyone is a Steve or Stephanie. They may interpret > > > conveyed information in different ways and the ambiguity does not help > > > at all. > > It should be obvious to anybody who bothered to read the description for > > this mailing list before signing up. I can't fix ignorance. > "General Gentoo developer discussion mailing list" is the > description... I guess my post was not general enough. ;) Indeed. There is an assumption that "Gentoo developer" should in fact be read "Gentoo Developer". And, of course, unless you know about the special status of the proper noun "Gentoo Developer" you are likely to think it is just somebody who develops stuff with/for Gentoo. Hey, I've written some ebuilds locally, doesn't that mean I'm a (small-d) Gentoo developer? Probably. The list description could probably be a little more precise, I suspect. I *know* I'm not stupid, and I misunderstood the intent of the mailing list those years ago that I subscribed. Anyway, wrt "I can't fix ignorance" - yes, actually you can. If that wasn't true then we'd all still in caves banging rocks together. phil back to lurking -- change name before "@" to "phil" for email -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 04:28, Stephen P. Becker wrote: > Kari Hazzard wrote: > > This is Gentoo. We have a reputation of good community support to > > maintain here. You're not helping that reputation by being mean to people > > who ask legitimate questions. The issue that the question may have been > > sent to the wrong list is irrelevant. RTFM is never the right answer to a > > question. > > I fail to see how pointing out a post was offtopic is mean. Rather, it > will save that individual (and hopefully others) from making the same > mistake in the future. > > Also, RTFM is absolutely the right answer more often than not. > Otherwise, what is the point of having TFM in the first place? The > amusement of those who spent a lot of time and effort writing it? Don't reply with RTFM, but with something like: - template - Hi sender, This is explained far better than I could do here in http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/foobar.xml If you have further questions, feel free to ask. Regards, your friendly gentoo developer. - end template - Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgp3LJsZ4F6YM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 17:12, Stephen P. Becker wrote: > I hate to break it to you, but there really is no such place for such > queries. We generally consider it rude when users whine about stable > keywording. Therefore, I don't feel bad about a short response. short != rude This was not a wine, at least not phrased as it. And in the gentoo that I am a developer for, there is always place for polite questions. I am certain that this is also the gentoo that Daniel Robbins started. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpACGOktXCBl.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 19:04, m h wrote: > I'm the OT. So I apologize to all devs whose precious time I have > wasted. This post has probably now consumed about 10x as much time as > it should've by now. I totally realize that it is probably super > annoying to get requests for bumping to stable. And it wasn't my > intention at all to put pressure on anyone to bump KDE. I was only > curious as to what was holding it up. You didn't waste time at all. While your question might have been rather concise I found it topical enough, and proper. The one wasting our time is Stephen P. Becker by behaving a gentoo developer unworthy, and being called upon that. He's also forgetting that while one could try asking it at gentoo-user, the chances of getting an answer from the developers are very thin. > > That was my bad for phrasing my question in such a sort manner (not > following the "howto ask smart questions" protocol). I figured since, > I'm seeing posts about 2.6.16 going stable in "2-3 weeks" and > questions about firefox 1.5, then KDE would be kosher as well (since > it is arguable on of the most important apps on the linux desktop). > > > >> I would like to point out that it was you who flamed me for apparently > > >> saying RTFM, when in fact if you read my original email, I did nothing > > >> of the sort. > > > > > > You gave a logical RTFM. You're being literal with words when the > > > meaning of what you said should be fairly clear. You didn't want to > > > answer the question, so you flamed the person who asked instead of > > > answering or defering to a more helpful individual. > > > > Not really. I should have actually pointed out that there is no (good) > > place for such queries originally, but I was doing about 10 things at > > once, and just sent the typical "don't send offtopic stuff to the > > gentoo-dev list" reply. Look back through the archives...this is pretty > > standard. > > > > >> I merely pointed out what should have been clear to anyone > > >> that signed up for this list, that it is not for whining about arch > > >> keywording. > > > > > > Not everyone is like you. There are all sorts of different people out > > > there who process information in a lot of different ways. Without a > > > stated correct place for asking questions about keywording, it wouldn't > > > be hard to rationalise that the proper place is the dev mailing list. > > > > Except that it isn't the proper place. It is for discussion of > > technical matters concerning the development of Gentoo. The closest > > place that might be sort of on-topic is the gentoo-desktop list, but I > > generally don't recommend that list because it seems like nobody bothers > > to answer questions there for the most part. I think the problem is > > that the RightPeople(TM) (meaning all the members of the teams for each > > desktop herd) probably aren't subscribed there. > > Sorry I'm not on the desktop list and since I was seeing other posts > about marking the kernel and firefox as stable, I figured kde fit in > as well. My bad. One solution to naggers like me may be to have > dedicated per package wiki/homepages where a status is shown (much > like Trac releases). Or at least link to pending bugs. Though I > realize that this is probably just more overhead for devs who are > already too busy and would rather just code. > > > > You say it should be obvious like it's fact. Not everything is obvious > > > to everyone--Not everyone is a Steve or Stephanie. They may interpret > > > conveyed information in different ways and the ambiguity does not help > > > at all. > > > > It should be obvious to anybody who bothered to read the description for > > this mailing list before signing up. I can't fix ignorance. > > Thanks for the compliment ;) > "General Gentoo developer discussion mailing list" is the > description... I guess my post was not general enough. ;) You are right, the list is about the development of gentoo. Asking what the reasons are why kde is not stabilized yet (while it used to be really fast) is totally relevant to that. The list is intentionally not developer only. It is a place for the interaction between developers and advanced users on what happens in gentoo. It's not for flames ;-). Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpOiRwkeR7F4.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
On Tuesday 04 April 2006 18:37, Stephen P. Becker wrote: > My reponse was helpful. I guarantee you (unless that person is really > dense) that they won't use this list to complain about stable keywording > again. Furthermore, any currently subscribed list user who didn't know > before will certainly know now. Your response was far from helpful on a few accounts: - You scared away the user related. - You probably scared away various other users that were tricked into believing that the requirements for gentoo-dev are very high. - You ignited a flamefest that probably chases of other list members. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpRwNMMpXYqJ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] When will KDE 3.5 be marked as stable?
Maybe your answer has already been answered somewhere in this thread, here are some threads on the forums on this issue (some are about older versions, but the reasons are likely the same): http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-335187.html http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-446306.html Searching for "kde stable" in all forums or just the duplicate threads forum should yield in some more probably useful hits. cheers, Wernfried -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org pgpCwVnmn4LSU.pgp Description: PGP signature
