Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Jan 15, 2008 12:48 PM, Alan McKinnon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tuesday 15 January 2008, Eric Martin wrote: > > > Anybody that feels they *need* or *must have* an official Gentoo > > > installer is probably the wrong target market and should be > > > referred to other distros that will suit their needs better. This > > > is not a troll or an elitist statement, it's just recognizing what > > > gentoo is and what it isn't - it's not a distro suitable for > > > someone to whom chroot isn't yet second nature. > > > > > > > I don't think it's an elitist statement, I agree in thinking that we > > shouldn't cater to the lcd. There are plenty of distros out there > > that work just fine and the greatest thing about FOSS is choice. If > > all of the options are the same there's no point. Again though, I > > have to disagree with the point that it's not for somebody whom > > chroot isn't yet second nature: I learned chroot through the install. > > I've tried playing around with Fedora / Ubunttu but I keep going > > back to Gentoo; it's my favorite distro. > > I know my statement about chroot looks like it should be taken > literally, but it wasn't meant that way. Read it more as illustrative, > that the potential user should be reasonably familiar with the more > unusual commands in *nix systems - chroot, grep, the idea of pipes and > redirection and many many more. After all if they are going to be using > these tools, they should know something about them. > Or the user could be like me - no experience with any of these commands but a moderate interest in learning. I hope this users list will continue to be supportive of folks like me. I was pointed to Gentoo 7 years ago by a very experienced Linux sys admin at a start up I was working at in Silicon Valley. Primarily through the help of this list I managed to get my first machine working in a few days and today have probably built 20 Gentoo machines. My longest lived, used my my dad who will be 80 this year, has now been running over 5 years. I couldn't have done it without the folks on this list. Grant you, I get that I'm not the target market, but I am someone who has benefited greatly from Gentoo and the generosity of the folks on this list. I hope it will continue for others that follow over the years to come. Thanks, Mark -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Tuesday 15 January 2008, Eric Martin wrote: > > Anybody that feels they *need* or *must have* an official Gentoo > > installer is probably the wrong target market and should be > > referred to other distros that will suit their needs better. This > > is not a troll or an elitist statement, it's just recognizing what > > gentoo is and what it isn't - it's not a distro suitable for > > someone to whom chroot isn't yet second nature. > > > > I don't think it's an elitist statement, I agree in thinking that we > shouldn't cater to the lcd. There are plenty of distros out there > that work just fine and the greatest thing about FOSS is choice. If > all of the options are the same there's no point. Again though, I > have to disagree with the point that it's not for somebody whom > chroot isn't yet second nature: I learned chroot through the install. > I've tried playing around with Fedora / Ubunttu but I keep going > back to Gentoo; it's my favorite distro. I know my statement about chroot looks like it should be taken literally, but it wasn't meant that way. Read it more as illustrative, that the potential user should be reasonably familiar with the more unusual commands in *nix systems - chroot, grep, the idea of pipes and redirection and many many more. After all if they are going to be using these tools, they should know something about them. -- Alan McKinnon alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
Alan McKinnon wrote: to build other distros. It is not suitable for newbies (disregard the occasional newbie that does get it right, that's a minority and very atypical), and one really does have to have moved beyond the "Oh, look! Shiny installer!" mentality to appreciate it. When you get to that stage, you appreciate that you need a bootstrap system to build the first stages of your own distro, and you can get that bootstrap system from any place you feel like getting it from. I came to Gentoo at gentoo 1.2 / gentoo 1.4 (I don't remember the year but it was around 2002). I was a GNU/Linux newbie who only knew RedHat and didn't quite understand compiling kernels. Doing the install taught me GNU/Linux and I'm better for it. I think newbies should try it, but unfortunately a lot might be turned off because it's 'too much work'. Anybody that feels they *need* or *must have* an official Gentoo installer is probably the wrong target market and should be referred to other distros that will suit their needs better. This is not a troll or an elitist statement, it's just recognizing what gentoo is and what it isn't - it's not a distro suitable for someone to whom chroot isn't yet second nature. I don't think it's an elitist statement, I agree in thinking that we shouldn't cater to the lcd. There are plenty of distros out there that work just fine and the greatest thing about FOSS is choice. If all of the options are the same there's no point. Again though, I have to disagree with the point that it's not for somebody whom chroot isn't yet second nature: I learned chroot through the install. I've tried playing around with Fedora / Ubunttu but I keep going back to Gentoo; it's my favorite distro. just my $0.02 eric -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Jan 14, 2008 10:39 AM, Cocoy Dayao <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > yeah. i agree. > In fact, imho the most perfect gentoo installer is the mini live cd! > what more can anybody need? > would it take much effort to maintain/refresh a mini live cd installer? > Couldn't that be refreshed every couple of months? > Having an "installer" gets newbies to like gentoo, reduces the barrier > of entry and gets new blood for the community and introduces users to > a whole new world and still give newbies the general idea of what > gentoo is. > not to mention give old hats a quick way to just get gentoo up and > running as quickly as possible. > if newbies find the mini live cd too difficult, then gentoo is > probably not for them is it? > Anything greater than a mini install cd i think, the community has the > right to expect contributors to help develop. > > just my two cents worth. Agreed. IMHO, the noob should start with the handbook on his legs and the minimal CD this is the best way to start for a beginner. But liveCD are also interesting for networkless people... gimme one reason not to provide good liveCD to these people that will re-build -with custom USE flags- the embedded packages ? I can't find Gal' -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Jan 14, 2008 10:17 AM, Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:27:30 +0100, b.n. wrote: > > > If I can give you an advice: don't create a "new" livecd from scratch. > > Take an Ubuntu, Knoppix or similar live cd, just add these three files > > in a /gentoo directory, and re-release it xerox, with just the three > > files added and a Gentoo logo somewhere. > > Or simply rebuild the existing CD with a newer kernel. Almost all of the > complaints about it being out of date can be traced back to the users' > hardware not being supported in the kernel used a year ago. +1, at least for the minimal CD ;) -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Jan 14, 2008, at 5:17 PM, Neil Bothwick wrote: On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:27:30 +0100, b.n. wrote: If I can give you an advice: don't create a "new" livecd from scratch. Take an Ubuntu, Knoppix or similar live cd, just add these three files in a /gentoo directory, and re-release it xerox, with just the three files added and a Gentoo logo somewhere. Or simply rebuild the existing CD with a newer kernel. Almost all of the complaints about it being out of date can be traced back to the users' hardware not being supported in the kernel used a year ago. yeah. i agree. In fact, imho the most perfect gentoo installer is the mini live cd! what more can anybody need? would it take much effort to maintain/refresh a mini live cd installer? Couldn't that be refreshed every couple of months? Having an "installer" gets newbies to like gentoo, reduces the barrier of entry and gets new blood for the community and introduces users to a whole new world and still give newbies the general idea of what gentoo is. not to mention give old hats a quick way to just get gentoo up and running as quickly as possible. if newbies find the mini live cd too difficult, then gentoo is probably not for them is it? Anything greater than a mini install cd i think, the community has the right to expect contributors to help develop. just my two cents worth. -- Cocoy "People who are really serious about software should make their own hardware." --Alan Kay -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 01:27:30 +0100, b.n. wrote: > If I can give you an advice: don't create a "new" livecd from scratch. > Take an Ubuntu, Knoppix or similar live cd, just add these three files > in a /gentoo directory, and re-release it xerox, with just the three > files added and a Gentoo logo somewhere. Or simply rebuild the existing CD with a newer kernel. Almost all of the complaints about it being out of date can be traced back to the users' hardware not being supported in the kernel used a year ago. -- Neil Bothwick I locked my coathanger in my car; good thing I had a key. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
2008. 01. 14, hétfő keltezéssel 01.27-kor b.n. ezt írta: > If I can give you an advice: don't create a "new" livecd from scratch. > Take an Ubuntu, Knoppix or similar live cd, just add these three files > in a /gentoo directory, and re-release it xerox, with just the three > files added and a Gentoo logo somewhere > ... > > m. Hi, Thank you for your advice, but in this case, where is the fun part? :) I do not want to create it from scratch, that is why catalyst exists. The rest depends on the computer which compiles everything. I agree, every kind of livecd is ready for install gentoo to a computer. I already made some livecds for my own, so, it is fun (more or less :) But I will explain the situation in my site later, based on this thread. Anyway, this is a "good marketing" to show, how smart I am :) Ok, I know, I'm stupid, but nobody else ;) Sh, this is a secret :) Anyway, if somebody needs a fresh gentoo livecd (for psychological reason) it will be possible to get one. With a BIG FAT note, this is not official from gentoo-dev and in fact, this is not necessary to install gentoo etc. Cheers, István -- eGroupWare, gLiveCD, gentoo és barátai http://www.osbusiness.hu „A humor a méltóság támasza, fölényünket hirdeti mindazzal szemben, amit a sors ránk mér.” (Romain Gary) -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
Pongracz Istvan ha scritto: > 2008. 01. 13, vasárnap keltezéssel 17.46-kor Ken Gypen ezt írta: > >> I agree that Gentoo shouldn't become an Ubuntu like distro, but the >> minimal install cd is, at least for me, a requirement. >> > ... >> Regards, >> >> Ken >> > > After reading lot of posts regarding install cd, I decided, I will > create livecd for install purposes, with: > - handbook > - fresh stage3 for i686 > - portage snapshot > > I will try to keep it up-to-date. > > Anyway, I'm not a dev member, just a user with motivation to do this. > Are anybody interesting in this kind of release? If I can give you an advice: don't create a "new" livecd from scratch. Take an Ubuntu, Knoppix or similar live cd, just add these three files in a /gentoo directory, and re-release it xerox, with just the three files added and a Gentoo logo somewhere. This is what open source is for: stand on the shoulders of giants. Don't reinvent the wheel. Ubuntu and Knoppix are extremly widely used and well tested live cds, designed to support an impressive range of hardware. You don't want to enter the realm of unknown or scratching your head thinking about what obsolete ISA card you want to support. Use ready made live cds. They're shiny gifts of the OSS community, just like Gentoo is. m. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Jan 13, 2008 11:26 AM, Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:15:38 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote: > > > 1) Boots new hardware well enough to do the install. The current > > LiveCD doesn't boot a P5E motherboard so I couldn't do the install on > > that machine using it. > > It booted on mine, I installed from a 2007.0 install disc. I stand partially corrected. It does boot AND see the disk drives *if* I make changes in BIOS to use AHCI instead of IDE emulation. Since BIOS was not set that way by ASUS as default the CD does boot but doesn't see the drives and cannot do the install. Presumably some sort of driver could have been enabled on the CD that would not have required this change to BIOS and IMO been more user install friendly. > > > 2) Has networking turned on for whatever my NIC is and makes it easy > > to start sshd. > > But it didn't do networking, so /i did a networkless install and updated > the kernel to a later one that did support my NIC. Precisely my point about the kernel and tarball on the CD. The most user friendly, which then IMO shines the most favorable light on Gentoo and it's install, is to have a very timely update to the install CD that has every driver possible on it, be they stable or testing, so that the machine can get to the network without having to get drivers there on some other CD, etc. If that means that the install CD kernel is updated weekly or even daily then so much the better IMO for the install CD only. I think you and I are really in violent agreement here Neil. It can be done, and the easier it is done the better it makes Gentoo look. Thanks for pointing out the mistake in my comment. Cheer, Mark > > > -- > Neil Bothwick > > Windows '96 artificial intelligence: Unable to FORMAT A: Having a go at C: > -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Jan 13, 2008 8:03 PM, Pongracz Istvan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I will prepare a "project" page on my website and I try to create the > first release in some weeks. Probably less, than one, depends on my free > time. > > I will send a mail to this list to inform you about the progress :) Sounds good :) But as a very-soon action to undertake, I think that the official handbook on gentoo.org should be modified as follow: -add an important note on top of step 2 saying that the current minimal/live CDs of Gentoo are outdated and people requiring lastest kernel should use another liveCD (GRML/knoppix or others) then download the stage3 tarball to keep on the installation. Gal' -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 11:15:38 -0800, Mark Knecht wrote: > 1) Boots new hardware well enough to do the install. The current > LiveCD doesn't boot a P5E motherboard so I couldn't do the install on > that machine using it. It booted on mine, I installed from a 2007.0 install disc. > 2) Has networking turned on for whatever my NIC is and makes it easy > to start sshd. But it didn't do networking, so /i did a networkless install and updated the kernel to a later one that did support my NIC. -- Neil Bothwick Windows '96 artificial intelligence: Unable to FORMAT A: Having a go at C: signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Jan 13, 2008 10:03 AM, Pongracz Istvan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 2008. 01. 13, vasárnap keltezéssel 17.46-kor Ken Gypen ezt írta: > > > I agree that Gentoo shouldn't become an Ubuntu like distro, but the > > minimal install cd is, at least for me, a requirement. > > > ... > > Regards, > > > > Ken > > > > After reading lot of posts regarding install cd, I decided, I will > create livecd for install purposes, with: > - handbook > - fresh stage3 for i686 > - portage snapshot > > I will try to keep it up-to-date. > > Anyway, I'm not a dev member, just a user with motivation to do this. > Are anybody interesting in this kind of release? > > Cheers, István > Hi, As a stupid user type, but one who does care about Gentoo and would like Gentoo to be strong and healthy, I'd certainly be interested in a very minimal install CD. I think it's good marketing that someone who wishes to use Gentoo can download something that writes Gentoo on his screen while he does the installation. All I personally want out of an install CD is something that: 1) Boots new hardware well enough to do the install. The current LiveCD doesn't boot a P5E motherboard so I couldn't do the install on that machine using it. 2) Has networking turned on for whatever my NIC is and makes it easy to start sshd. At that point I'll sit on another machine and copy/paste install commands to do a Stage 3 install. I wouldn't use a tarball on this CD. I'd go to the net to get the latest and greatest. It just needs a good kernel and networking support. After that it's up to me. This install CD, should you do it and I hope you do, should be focused at supporting new motherboards as soon as possible to ensure I can always install Gentoo on the newest machines. As far as I'm concerned, and this is just me the dumb user type, it doesn't need X, frame buffers, sound or *anything* fancy. Just boot to a text console and let me do my work. That would be perfect. Thanks for listening. Cheers, Mark -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
2008. 01. 13, vasárnap keltezéssel 19.22-kor Galevsky ezt írta:
> I can't help you immediately, but be sure I am going to help you if
> you'll still need it in a few months. For me, the key is to keep the
> handbook up-to-date. IMHO, it is a must. Having a "2. Choosing the
> Right Installation Medium" section not able to provide good
> information for new users is really painful. Gentoo is known as "one
> of the best documented distro" and I am sure that it is a crucial
> point to mind.
>
> Gal'
> ��?zb z{hx%
Thank you for your help.
I will prepare a "project" page on my website and I try to create the
first release in some weeks. Probably less, than one, depends on my free
time.
I will send a mail to this list to inform you about the progress :)
Regards,
István
--
eGroupWare, gLiveCD, gentoo és barátai
http://www.osbusiness.hu
„A humor a méltóság támasza, fölényünket hirdeti
mindazzal szemben, amit a sors ránk mér.”
(Romain Gary)
--
gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Jan 13, 2008 7:03 PM, Pongracz Istvan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > 2008. 01. 13, vasárnap keltezéssel 17.46-kor Ken Gypen ezt írta: > > > I agree that Gentoo shouldn't become an Ubuntu like distro, but the > > minimal install cd is, at least for me, a requirement. > > > ... > > Regards, > > > > Ken > > > > After reading lot of posts regarding install cd, I decided, I will > create livecd for install purposes, with: > - handbook > - fresh stage3 for i686 > - portage snapshot > > I will try to keep it up-to-date. > > Anyway, I'm not a dev member, just a user with motivation to do this. > Are anybody interesting in this kind of release? > > Cheers, István I can't help you immediately, but be sure I am going to help you if you'll still need it in a few months. For me, the key is to keep the handbook up-to-date. IMHO, it is a must. Having a "2. Choosing the Right Installation Medium" section not able to provide good information for new users is really painful. Gentoo is known as "one of the best documented distro" and I am sure that it is a crucial point to mind. Gal'
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
2008. 01. 13, vasárnap keltezéssel 17.46-kor Ken Gypen ezt írta: > I agree that Gentoo shouldn't become an Ubuntu like distro, but the > minimal install cd is, at least for me, a requirement. > ... > Regards, > > Ken > After reading lot of posts regarding install cd, I decided, I will create livecd for install purposes, with: - handbook - fresh stage3 for i686 - portage snapshot I will try to keep it up-to-date. Anyway, I'm not a dev member, just a user with motivation to do this. Are anybody interesting in this kind of release? Cheers, István -- eGroupWare, gLiveCD, gentoo és barátai http://www.osbusiness.hu „A humor a méltóság támasza, fölényünket hirdeti mindazzal szemben, amit a sors ránk mér.” (Romain Gary) -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On 2008-01-13 16:29:15 (+), Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 15:53:48 +0100, Michael Schmarck wrote: > > > > You also need the handbook, a portage snapshot and a stage tarball. > > > How many live CDs provide these? > > > > None. But the portage snapshot is best fetched from the web > > anyway, as far as I'm concerned. Same with the handbook, as > > it may contain (theoritcal) up-to-the minute corrections. > > > > So, the portage snapshot and handbook don't have to on the > > Live CD. > > No, but it's a lot easier if they are when doing a networkless install. I think that's what the whole discussion here is about. Should Gentoo become an elite meta-distro or do we actually want 'less then ultimate geek' people using it. A lot of the very verbal people over here seem to want the former. I agree that Gentoo shouldn't become an Ubuntu like distro, but the minimal install cd is, at least for me, a requirement. If there's too much work for the current devs then they should do something about it. After the whole p.g.o mess a lot of people, including myself, offered to become a dev. But I'm still awaiting replies from 3-4 herds. The whole discussion going on over here has a much deeper cause, lack of leadership. Every dev does what seems best for him or his herd, but the bigger whole seems to be lacking a lot. And I'm affraid that untill deeper problems are solved, Gentoo will keep losing users and more important, keep losing credability. Regards, Ken -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 16:00:20 +0100, Michael Schmarck wrote: > > It is a lot more comfortable for the first-time installer. > > Why's that? Because a first-time installer benefits from the confidence given by using an official install disc. > > It also allows you to install without a network > > connection if you have a single CD containing the handbook, tools, > > portage snapshot and stage files. > > How do you get that stuff (the Install CD)? By downloading? Why > can't you download the handbook, snapshot and stage tar ball as > well at that time? And what "tools" are you talking about? fdisk? > chroot? Everything needed can be obtained by downloading one ISO image and burning it to CD. There's no need for extra trips back the the netted computer to fetch things you discover you need after reading the handbook, or partway through the install. > > > So while an official install disc is not necessary for installation > > for many people, it is a part of what Gentoo should offer. > > I disagree. Maybe it's a bonus if it's offered, but then it "always" > has to be up-to-date. And that, obviously, cannot be done right now. > So I'd rather say, that it would be better, if there were no install > CD at all. But it can be done. The basic CD is a minimal live CD with portage snapshots and stage tarballs, which is relatively easy to keep up to date. What is holding the process back in the insistence on including a full desktop and graphical installer on the CD, which is a complete waste of effort IMO. I would prefer releng to concentrate on producing the traditional style minimal CD, with the installer project releasing their own discs based on this when they are able. -- Neil Bothwick When you choke a smurf, what color does it turn? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 15:53:48 +0100, Michael Schmarck wrote: > > You also need the handbook, a portage snapshot and a stage tarball. > > How many live CDs provide these? > > None. But the portage snapshot is best fetched from the web > anyway, as far as I'm concerned. Same with the handbook, as > it may contain (theoritcal) up-to-the minute corrections. > > So, the portage snapshot and handbook don't have to on the > Live CD. No, but it's a lot easier if they are when doing a networkless install. -- Neil Bothwick Top Oxymorons Number 43: Genuine imitation signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
Michael Schmarck wrote: > > < SNIP > > > How do you get that stuff (the Install CD)? By downloading? Why > can't you download the handbook, snapshot and stage tar ball as > well at that time? And what "tools" are you talking about? fdisk? > chroot? > < SNIP > > > Michael Schmarck > Actually, I order mine off the net. It would take over a week to download a CD over this crappy dial-up and this crappy dial-up is all I can get right now. DSL is coming tho. I can actually order the CD and get it faster through the mail that I can download it. Go figure. Dale :-) :-) -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
· Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:35:55 +0100, b.n. wrote: > >> > But i still think a Gentoo-Install-CD/DVD is a good thing. >> >> Any practical reason for that? > > It is a lot more comfortable for the first-time installer. Why's that? > One of the > problems with mixing components for various sources is knowing where to > turn for help when things go wrong. A single source means a single point > of contact, and no chance of each supplier blaming the other's component. In theory, that's true. But can you point to bugs, mailing list submissions or maybe forum posts, which indicate that there are problems because something's done in a chroot originating from a non-Gentoo system which would not exist, if the chroot were started from a Gentoo system (the Gentoo Install CD)? > While a Gentoo install CD is not essential for installing Gentoo, it is a > good thing to have. Depends. I'd rather say, that it is rather superfluous. > It also allows you to install without a network > connection if you have a single CD containing the handbook, tools, > portage snapshot and stage files. How do you get that stuff (the Install CD)? By downloading? Why can't you download the handbook, snapshot and stage tar ball as well at that time? And what "tools" are you talking about? fdisk? chroot? > So while an official install disc is not necessary for installation for > many people, it is a part of what Gentoo should offer. I disagree. Maybe it's a bonus if it's offered, but then it "always" has to be up-to-date. And that, obviously, cannot be done right now. So I'd rather say, that it would be better, if there were no install CD at all. Michael Schmarck -- He is considered a most graceful speaker who can say nothing in the most words. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
· Neil Bothwick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:06:39 +0100, b.n. wrote: > >> Because you don't have to add *anything* to such cd. >> -What do you need to install Gentoo? A working Linux live cd with a >> terminal and chroot. >> -Are a terminal and chroot available on 99.9% of Linux live cds in the >> world? Yes. > > You also need the handbook, a portage snapshot and a stage tarball. How > many live CDs provide these? None. But the portage snapshot is best fetched from the web anyway, as far as I'm concerned. Same with the handbook, as it may contain (theoritcal) up-to-the minute corrections. So, the portage snapshot and handbook don't have to on the Live CD. Stage Tarball - well, yes, that's an additional download, that's true. Michael Schmarck -- Narrator: Oh, no! He's heading towards Townsville! -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
Michael Schmarck schrieb: > · Norman Rieß <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > >> Michael Schmarck schrieb: >> >>> · Norman Rieß <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >>> >>> >>> Right, basicly telling people "You have to depend on / use other distros to install our OS, cause we are not able to / don´t have time to provide this" sounds a little fishy. It makes Gentoo look incomplete. >>> Well, but providing outdated (ie. non-usable for new systems) install >>> medium is also very bad. And if the installer doesn't work (satisfactory), >>> then that gives an even worse impression. >>> >>> Michael Schmarck >>> >>> >> I agree. >> And i don't think that this is contradicting my statement, does it? >> > > Depends. You're saying, that Gentoo might look to be incomplete, if > it were to rely on other distributions (Live CDs). I'm saying, that > it currently already looks to be incomplete, despite there being a > install CD - a CD, which is outdated. > > > Michael Schmarck > Still no complaints about your opinion from my side ;-). In short. An outdated InstallCD is bad and no InstallCD at all is bad, too.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
> > install CD - a CD, which is outdated. ... > hardware where to install it? No. So why do not having an official > livecd makes it incomplete? > > Think it the other way. Gentoo is, among other things, a way to install > Linux from any decent Linux live cd. From this point of view, the fact > that Gentoo sometimes releases an 'official' live cd is more of a luxury > than something it needs to be complete. > > m. Hi, As I wrote before, there is a tool, calles catalyst, which is used to create "official" and up-to-date gentoo livecd. Everybody have the chance to create their own. I did it, that means, it is not really hard to learn :) By the way, I customized my livecd to support the rsync-to-the-hard-drive and viola', you have a fresh and running system :) The official install CD is a good marketing and reference, but in fact, it is not necessary. I think, this issue not really critical. If somebody needs, create his own or change the distro. Power of freedom :) Cheers, István -- eGroupWare, gLiveCD, gentoo és barátai http://www.osbusiness.hu „A humor a méltóság támasza, fölényünket hirdeti mindazzal szemben, amit a sors ránk mér.” (Romain Gary) -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
Michael Schmarck ha scritto: > · Norman Rieß <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Depends. You're saying, that Gentoo might look to be incomplete, if > it were to rely on other distributions (Live CDs). I'm saying, that > it currently already looks to be incomplete, despite there being a > install CD - a CD, which is outdated. And why something that can be installed and works is incomplete? Would you call Gentoo incomplete because it doesn't provide physical hardware where to install it? No. So why do not having an official livecd makes it incomplete? Think it the other way. Gentoo is, among other things, a way to install Linux from any decent Linux live cd. From this point of view, the fact that Gentoo sometimes releases an 'official' live cd is more of a luxury than something it needs to be complete. m. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
· Norman Rieß <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Michael Schmarck schrieb: >> · Norman Rieß <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> >> >>> Right, basicly telling people "You have to depend on / use other distros >>> to install our OS, cause we are not able to / don´t have time to provide >>> this" sounds a little fishy. It makes Gentoo look incomplete. >>> >> >> Well, but providing outdated (ie. non-usable for new systems) install >> medium is also very bad. And if the installer doesn't work (satisfactory), >> then that gives an even worse impression. >> >> Michael Schmarck >> > I agree. > And i don't think that this is contradicting my statement, does it? Depends. You're saying, that Gentoo might look to be incomplete, if it were to rely on other distributions (Live CDs). I'm saying, that it currently already looks to be incomplete, despite there being a install CD - a CD, which is outdated. Michael Schmarck -- You can't have everything. Where would you put it? -- Steven Wright -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 03:29:34 +0100, b.n. wrote: > Moreover, I'd go on to say that the fact Gentoo is installable from > almost every reasonable Linux-based live cd is a defining Gentoo > feature. It doesn't even need a live CD. I installed Ubuntu when I first got this laptop, because I needed a Linux environment quickly and I had an Ubuntu disc. I then installed Gentoo from within the installed Ubuntu OS. -- Neil Bothwick Top Oxymorons Number 22: Childproof signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Jan 11, 2008 11:29 PM, b.n. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Alan McKinnon ha scritto: > > > Gentoo is NOT "plug in and go", it is a complex scheme that allows you > > to build other distros. > > Exactly. > Moreover, I'd go on to say that the fact Gentoo is installable from > almost every reasonable Linux-based live cd is a defining Gentoo > feature. The real Gentoo installer is the combination of the tarball > (the data) and the manual (the algorithms). > > The fact that an "official" Gentoo live cd exists is just a happy gift > from developers, and a way to guarantee that there is a reference > environment from which Gentoo can be installed. > > While nearly every other distro requires its own live cd installer, > Gentoo (or any Gentoo-like system) requires just a working live cd and a > stage tarball. From there, you go. It's *you* that decide *your* > installation environment, depending on *your* needs. I used Knoppix > once, and Kubuntu another; I think I've never used the "official" Gentoo CD. > True. I may be going OT here, but I think that another feature is that when you realise you can install Gentoo from any working environment with basic support, you expect people to think "out of the box". Sincerely, that's something the world is desperatly in need. Linux by itself is "Darwinist" [1]. People need to get more knowledge to make it suits their needs or enhance performance. My whole experience with Gentoo, command line and deep system configuration makes it a breeze to deal with any distro out there. That's what make this community one (if not THE) best knowledge base I've ever seen. [1] http://www.meiobit.com/a_principal_vantagem_do_linux_e_ser_darwinista [in portuguese] -- Daniel da Veiga Filosofia de TI: Programadores de verdade consideram o conceito "o que você vê é o que você tem" tão ruim em editores de texto quanto em mulheres. Não, o programador de verdade quer um editor de texto do estilo "você pediu, você levou" - complicado, indecifrável, poderoso, impiedoso, perigoso.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
Alan McKinnon ha scritto: > Gentoo is NOT "plug in and go", it is a complex scheme that allows you > to build other distros. Exactly. Moreover, I'd go on to say that the fact Gentoo is installable from almost every reasonable Linux-based live cd is a defining Gentoo feature. The real Gentoo installer is the combination of the tarball (the data) and the manual (the algorithms). The fact that an "official" Gentoo live cd exists is just a happy gift from developers, and a way to guarantee that there is a reference environment from which Gentoo can be installed. While nearly every other distro requires its own live cd installer, Gentoo (or any Gentoo-like system) requires just a working live cd and a stage tarball. From there, you go. It's *you* that decide *your* installation environment, depending on *your* needs. I used Knoppix once, and Kubuntu another; I think I've never used the "official" Gentoo CD. m. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Saturday 12 January 2008, Qian Qiao wrote: > > I mean dealing with Gentoo components versions sounds sensible > > watching GRML/Knoppix/whatever website for a Gentoo > > install...surely less. > > As I said in the thread earlier, do not bind your mind to the idea > that "you need gentoo to install gentoo", the fact is, you don't. The > installation steps from knoppixCD/GRML is almost identical to those > from a Gentoo CD, with only one exception: they don't come with > /mnt/gentoo, so you'll have to mkdir /mnt/gentoo, but if that makes > it less sensible as you claimed, I'm afraid I can't agree. Without trying to be a complete dick here, I think Gavelsky has not yet 100% comprehended the essential difference between Gentoo and binary distros: Gentoo is NOT "plug in and go", it is a complex scheme that allows you to build other distros. It is not suitable for newbies (disregard the occasional newbie that does get it right, that's a minority and very atypical), and one really does have to have moved beyond the "Oh, look! Shiny installer!" mentality to appreciate it. When you get to that stage, you appreciate that you need a bootstrap system to build the first stages of your own distro, and you can get that bootstrap system from any place you feel like getting it from. Anybody that feels they *need* or *must have* an official Gentoo installer is probably the wrong target market and should be referred to other distros that will suit their needs better. This is not a troll or an elitist statement, it's just recognizing what gentoo is and what it isn't - it's not a distro suitable for someone to whom chroot isn't yet second nature. I could give a traditional car analogy with kit cars, but I think I'm into dead horse territory already alan -- Alan McKinnon alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Galevsky wrote: > Yes it is. Portage is not included Huh? If are talking about installation, then whether the LiveCD carries portage or not is irrelavent, portage is in the stage tarball you fetch over the internet. > you depend on other systems that > don't mind about Gentoo needs and could go on different way, and I > find very strange to have a 2.6.23 stable in Gentoo, but not necessary > on other liveCD at the same time. You don't depend on the LiveCD, it merely boots your computer and gives you fdisk and mount, as soon as you unpack the stage tarball and chroot into it, you are using the binaries from the stage tarball and gentoo's base-layout, and at that point, what the LiveCD is becomes completely irrelavent, so I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. > plus networkless installations... I > think it is very good -for any distro- to have an installCD that > brings a good system to not-connected machines. Just for them. Networkless installations is well documented. Even without gentoo's LiveCD, it can easily be done, some LiveCDs allow you to switch disc, or you can just use portable medias like USB flash. If you Google for it, there are plenty of guides and tutorials, so I won't go into details. > I mean dealing with Gentoo components versions sounds sensible > watching GRML/Knoppix/whatever website for a Gentoo install...surely > less. As I said in the thread earlier, do not bind your mind to the idea that "you need gentoo to install gentoo", the fact is, you don't. The installation steps from knoppixCD/GRML is almost identical to those from a Gentoo CD, with only one exception: they don't come with /mnt/gentoo, so you'll have to mkdir /mnt/gentoo, but if that makes it less sensible as you claimed, I'm afraid I can't agree. - -- Joe - -- A computer scientist is someone who, when told "go to hell", considers the "go to" harmful rather than the destination. GnuPG FP: DE08 57AE A1AD 620C 02AA CCDD 611B 63AC B146 61D9 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFHh/MbYRtjrLFGYdkRAke5AKCyoN34Yv3WyupfkcdavNiFxx495wCfcR1y ghjiHu1RP65yHB/DQLIX0Hw= =LHBM -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Jan 11, 2008 8:08 PM, Michael Schmarck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > GRML ? Knoppix ? other LiveCD ? What for, man ? > > Oh, quite easy - to install Gentoo. That way, the knowledge of experts > in creating live CDs is leveraged. NIH is not a good point of view, if > you ask me. > > > Using extra rescue > > systems is a liberty, of course, but why should it be a must ? I > > Easy - to make use of expert knowledge. To save resources, as that's > obviously a scarcity in Gentoo. Not sure that in the whole Gentoo community we cannot find someone not interested in dev stuff but okay to build CD releases... I can understand the understaffed argument, but in that case don't tell me that install CD is bad, tell me Gentoo has no resource for, but the debate is "does Gentoo need install CD or not ?". > > see no gain in downloading and burning one more system... > > Uhm? That doesn't make sense. Downloading GRML is no worse than > downloading a Gentoo Live CD. Yes it is. Portage is not included, you depend on other systems that don't mind about Gentoo needs and could go on different way, and I find very strange to have a 2.6.23 stable in Gentoo, but not necessary on other liveCD at the same time, plus networkless installations... I think it is very good -for any distro- to have an installCD that brings a good system to not-connected machines. Just for them. > > [...] I don't want to take care about > > versions > > Me neither, but that's a dream. I mean dealing with Gentoo components versions sounds sensible watching GRML/Knoppix/whatever website for a Gentoo install...surely less. > > So, of course, as far as > > one of linux distro at least will provide a way to boot up an > > up-to-date kernel, all the other distros won't have to maintain their > > own releases, but in the end, I am not sure that the whole community > > wants to launch the Windows Ubuntu installer, download the required > > packages manager from the web and update the system from the good > > repository. > > I don't get, what you were trying to say here. I mean that one particular aspect of linux world that I love is choice. I am very pleased to show different live CD to newbies and I hope that all other distros won't have the same reasoning. Okay, GRML does a nice job. But if a Gentoo user wants to spend time to build liveCD, I see no reason not to let him release official iso ... and propose a Gentoo alternative. Certainly not because guys are experts in rescue systems at grml.org. Gal' -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
· Galevsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > On Jan 11, 2008 11:02 AM, Michael Schmarck > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...] >> As far as I'm concerned, the Gentoo install CD could easily be dropped >> without a loss. >> >> Michael > > I'll try to make you understand it. After reading your reply, I've got to say that you failed. > GRML ? Knoppix ? other LiveCD ? What for, man ? Oh, quite easy - to install Gentoo. That way, the knowledge of experts in creating live CDs is leveraged. NIH is not a good point of view, if you ask me. > Using extra rescue > systems is a liberty, of course, but why should it be a must ? I Easy - to make use of expert knowledge. To save resources, as that's obviously a scarcity in Gentoo. > always installed my gentoo from the current gentoo installCD since I Fine. I never did that. > see no gain in downloading and burning one more system... Uhm? That doesn't make sense. Downloading GRML is no worse than downloading a Gentoo Live CD. > [...] I don't want to take care about > versions Me neither, but that's a dream. > and news about other distros/rescue systems, since I am using > Gentoo which provides me all I need to setup. Fine for you. That's obviously not the case for Shaochun. > So, of course, as far as > one of linux distro at least will provide a way to boot up an > up-to-date kernel, all the other distros won't have to maintain their > own releases, but in the end, I am not sure that the whole community > wants to launch the Windows Ubuntu installer, download the required > packages manager from the web and update the system from the good > repository. I don't get, what you were trying to say here. Michael Schmarck -- Real programmers don't draw flowcharts. Flowcharts are, after all, the illiterate's form of documentation. Cavemen drew flowcharts; look how much good it did them. -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
On Jan 11, 2008 12:53 PM, Michael Schmarck
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Galevsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > tel me how to install Gentoo in that case.
>
> Boot from any Live CD (like GRML) and do the installation from there,
> in a chroot.
>
And you can use any storage media to hold the important contents of
the CD (portage tree and stage tarball), like a USB stick, or another
CD drive. I believe you can even exchange CDs to use the old install
CD while booting from another (I can't remember right now, but I'm
pretty sure Ive done that in the past).
--
Daniel da Veiga
Filosofia de TI: Programadores de verdade consideram o conceito "o que
você vê é o que você tem" tão ruim em editores de texto quanto em
mulheres. Não, o programador de verdade quer um editor de texto do
estilo "você pediu, você levou" - complicado, indecifrável, poderoso,
impiedoso, perigoso.
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[gentoo-user] Re: Re: Is GWN dead?
Galevsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > tel me how to install Gentoo in that case. Boot from any Live CD (like GRML) and do the installation from there, in a chroot. Michael -- gentoo-user@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
