Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On Thursday 13 January 2011 01:40:09 Dale wrote: You got a crystal ball or something? Not yet, my supplier is still awaiting new stock from the manufacturer... -- Joost
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On Thu, 13 Jan 2011 01:59:19 +, Peter Humphrey wrote: There's nothing gratuitous about it. It's perfectly suited for the purpose, in this particular case. No it is not: there's no need for it. it adds nothing useful, and it makes one wince. The sense would not have been changed by omitting it. It would have been changed a lot. However, I agree about the offensiveness of the language, the same effect could have been achieved with a less offensive term. -- Neil Bothwick We are from the planet Taglinis. Take us to your reader! signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On 2011-01-12, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:33:02 +, Stroller wrote: No longer updated can mean broken, but it can also mean finished. Boot to BTFS filesystems? Finished != complete Maybe not on the right hand side of the pond, but here in the US finished == complete. If you look in the Merriam-Webster dictionaly under finished both completed and complete are listed as synonyms. -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Are the STEWED PRUNES at still in the HAIR DRYER? gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Apparently, though unproven, at 00:42 on Thursday 13 January 2011, Grant Edwards did opine thusly: On 2011-01-12, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:33:02 +, Stroller wrote: No longer updated can mean broken, but it can also mean finished. Boot to BTFS filesystems? Finished != complete Maybe not on the right hand side of the pond, but here in the US finished == complete. If you look in the Merriam-Webster dictionaly under finished both completed and complete are listed as synonyms. Dictionaries document current usage and current usage sucks. The right hand side of the pond invented English so maybe you should call your language American, but we have dibs on English :-) Finished and complete and not the same, they are just similar. Complete is pretty much an absolute. Something is complete, it is done, nothing more can be added, nothing can be removed. Finished is a lower grade of that, a part can be finished and the whole is still incomplete. Grub is finished. There is nothing left to do to it in it's current state at this time. Sometime this year, btrfs will likely be stable and then grub can be extended to use it. That phase will then be finished but grub itself will not be complete. grub cannot be complete as there are always new file systems and boot methods that could be added. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
That makes perfect fucking sense. On Jan 12, 2011 6:18 PM, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 00:42 on Thursday 13 January 2011, Grant Edwards did opine thusly: On 2011-01-12, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:33:02 +, Stroller wrote: No longer updated can mean broken, but it can also mean finished. Boot to BTFS filesystems? Finished != complete Maybe not on the right hand side of the pond, but here in the US finished == complete. If you look in the Merriam-Webster dictionaly under finished both completed and complete are listed as synonyms. Dictionaries document current usage and current usage sucks. The right hand side of the pond invented English so maybe you should call your language American, but we have dibs on English :-) Finished and complete and not the same, they are just similar. Complete is pretty much an absolute. Something is complete, it is done, nothing more can be added, nothing can be removed. Finished is a lower grade of that, a part can be finished and the whole is still incomplete. Grub is finished. There is nothing left to do to it in it's current state at this time. Sometime this year, btrfs will likely be stable and then grub can be extended to use it. That phase will then be finished but grub itself will not be complete. grub cannot be complete as there are always new file systems and boot methods that could be added. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Alan McKinnon wrote: grub cannot be complete as there are always new file systems and boot methods that could be added. That was my point earlier. With computers changing, nothing will ever be finished. There will always be something that has to be added in as new things come out. I still wonder where computers will be in say 10 or 20 years. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:32:32 -0600, Dale wrote: That was my point earlier. With computers changing, nothing will ever be finished. There will always be something that has to be added in as new things come out. I still wonder where computers will be in say 10 or 20 years. If you'd asked that 10 or 20 years ago, the answer, as far as booting is concerned, would have been exactly the same as now. -- Neil Bothwick Invertebrates make no bones about it. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com writes: Alan McKinnon wrote: grub cannot be complete as there are always new file systems and boot methods that could be added. That was my point earlier. With computers changing, nothing will ever be finished. There will always be something that has to be added in as new things come out. I still wonder where computers will be in say 10 or 20 years. Stuff can be finished, given the /current/ requirements. But requirements change. -- Nuno J. Silva gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On 2011-01-12, Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com wrote: Grant Edwards did opine thusly: On 2011-01-12, Neil Bothwick n...@digimed.co.uk wrote: On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:33:02 +, Stroller wrote: No longer updated can mean broken, but it can also mean finished. Boot to BTFS filesystems? Finished != complete Maybe not on the right hand side of the pond, but here in the US finished == complete. If you look in the Merriam-Webster dictionaly under finished both completed and complete are listed as synonyms. Dictionaries document current usage and current usage sucks. The right hand side of the pond invented English so maybe you should call your language American, but we have dibs on English :-) OK, I'll cite the OED: finished adjective (of an action, activity, or piece of work ) having been completed or ended. Finished and complete and not the same, they are just similar. According to the OED they're the same. I checked both us english and world english versions. You and Humpty Dumpty are free to make up your own meanings, but doings so seems rather counter-productive if your goal is to actually communicate with others. Complete is pretty much an absolute. Something is complete, it is done, nothing more can be added, nothing can be removed. Finished is a lower grade of that, a part can be finished and the whole is still incomplete. Citations? -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! Either CONFESS now or at we go to PEOPLE'S COURT!! gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:32:32 -0600, Dale wrote: That was my point earlier. With computers changing, nothing will ever be finished. There will always be something that has to be added in as new things come out. I still wonder where computers will be in say 10 or 20 years. If you'd asked that 10 or 20 years ago, the answer, as far as booting is concerned, would have been exactly the same as now. So we don't have new and faster processors? Larger hard drives? Faster DVD type media? More memory that is usable? I can think of a LOT of things that have changed in just the past ten years. Dale :-) :-)
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com writes: Neil Bothwick wrote: On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 16:46:43 -0600, Dale wrote: What is there to do with it? It's a bootloader that boots and loads, what more do you want? No longer updated can mean broken, but it can also mean finished. My point was, if something changes and it no longer works, then we may all have to switch. According to the website, nothing much is being done with the old grub. What can change? We are stuck with a hardware spec from 30 years ago for booting. That won't change any time soon. File systems for one. They do make new ones every once in a while. ' At least in UNIX-like systems, one can always have a separate /boot in ext2, and use other filesystem everywhere else. It makes a grub update less urgent. Also, if they change - again - the way hard drives are accessed, just because some oh, 8GiB is so big, no disk will ever be that large barrier was hit, people may need some fix to access a kernel which is 129 PiB away from the first block. -- Nuno J. Silva gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On 2011-01-13, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Neil Bothwick wrote: On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:32:32 -0600, Dale wrote: That was my point earlier. With computers changing, nothing will ever be finished. There will always be something that has to be added in as new things come out. I still wonder where computers will be in say 10 or 20 years. If you'd asked that 10 or 20 years ago, the answer, as far as booting is concerned, would have been exactly the same as now. So we don't have new and faster processors? Larger hard drives? Faster DVD type media? More memory that is usable? How do those things impact grub? Do bigger drives and more ram require that grub be changed somehow? Does a faster processor with more cores require grub be changed? I can think of a LOT of things that have changed in just the past ten years. So can I, but how many of them have impacted grub's requirements? -- Grant Edwards grant.b.edwardsYow! But was he mature at enough last night at the gmail.comlesbian masquerade?
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com writes: Neil Bothwick wrote: On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:32:32 -0600, Dale wrote: That was my point earlier. With computers changing, nothing will ever be finished. There will always be something that has to be added in as new things come out. I still wonder where computers will be in say 10 or 20 years. If you'd asked that 10 or 20 years ago, the answer, as far as booting is concerned, would have been exactly the same as now. So we don't have new and faster processors? Larger hard drives? Faster DVD type media? More memory that is usable? I can think of a LOT of things that have changed in just the past ten years. Well, I think it's still possible to use INT13 for disk access :-) -- Nuno J. Silva gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Nuno J. Silva wrote: At least in UNIX-like systems, one can always have a separate /boot in ext2, and use other filesystem everywhere else. It makes a grub update less urgent. Also, if they change - again - the way hard drives are accessed, just because some oh, 8GiB is so big, no disk will ever be that large barrier was hit, people may need some fix to access a kernel which is 129 PiB away from the first block. I just learned a long time ago to never say I am done with anything. We never know what will happen that makes us go back and fix something else. I find this really applies to computers a lot. They always improving things on puters. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Apparently, though unproven, at 01:32 on Thursday 13 January 2011, Dale did opine thusly: Alan McKinnon wrote: grub cannot be complete as there are always new file systems and boot methods that could be added. That was my point earlier. With computers changing, nothing will ever be finished. There will always be something that has to be added in as new things come out. I still wonder where computers will be in say 10 or 20 years. Dale :-) :-) You know the old saw about how Perfection is design is achieved not when nothing remains to be added, but when nothing remains to be removed? Well, Unix ain't done yet, we had to take HAL out. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Apparently, though unproven, at 02:13 on Thursday 13 January 2011, Nuno J. Silva did opine thusly: Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com writes: Neil Bothwick wrote: On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:32:32 -0600, Dale wrote: That was my point earlier. With computers changing, nothing will ever be finished. There will always be something that has to be added in as new things come out. I still wonder where computers will be in say 10 or 20 years. If you'd asked that 10 or 20 years ago, the answer, as far as booting is concerned, would have been exactly the same as now. So we don't have new and faster processors? Larger hard drives? Faster DVD type media? More memory that is usable? I can think of a LOT of things that have changed in just the past ten years. Well, I think it's still possible to use INT13 for disk access :-) You horrible person. I just went 13 years without hearing that thing's name mentioned not even once. You have just broken that winning streak. You are a horrible person. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Apparently, though unproven, at 01:57 on Thursday 13 January 2011, Grant Edwards did opine thusly: Citations? You want me to quote another assumed authority when I can just quote the one that's already inside my head? -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On Thursday 13 January 2011 00:17:42 Dale wrote: They always improving things on puters. Well, changing them, anyway. -- Rgds Peter. Linux Counter 5290, 1994-04-23.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Grant Edwards wrote: On 2011-01-13, Dalerdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Neil Bothwick wrote: On Wed, 12 Jan 2011 17:32:32 -0600, Dale wrote: That was my point earlier. With computers changing, nothing will ever be finished. There will always be something that has to be added in as new things come out. I still wonder where computers will be in say 10 or 20 years. If you'd asked that 10 or 20 years ago, the answer, as far as booting is concerned, would have been exactly the same as now. So we don't have new and faster processors? Larger hard drives? Faster DVD type media? More memory that is usable? How do those things impact grub? Do bigger drives and more ram require that grub be changed somehow? Does a faster processor with more cores require grub be changed? I can think of a LOT of things that have changed in just the past ten years. So can I, but how many of them have impacted grub's requirements? I was talking about more than just grub at that point. Still, we don't know what may change that would require grub to need changing either. You got a crystal ball or something? Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On Thursday 13 January 2011 00:00:53 Dale wrote: Neil Bothwick wrote: If you'd asked that 10 or 20 years ago, the answer, as far as booting is concerned, would have been exactly the same as now. So we don't have new and faster processors? Larger hard drives? Faster DVD type media? More memory that is usable? I can think of a LOT of things that have changed in just the past ten years. How does any of that answer Neil's point? (Sorry, I'm being resolutely left-brained here.) -- Rgds Peter. Linux Counter 5290, 1994-04-23.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On Wednesday 12 January 2011 23:57:32 Grant Edwards wrote: I checked both us english and world english versions. Neither of which is acceptable in UK, the home of English. Not to me, at any rate. Colonials all... -- Rgds Peter. Linux Counter 5290, 1994-04-23.
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On 01/12/2011 04:17 PM, Dale wrote: I just learned a long time ago to never say I am done with anything. We never know what will happen that makes us go back and fix something else. I distinctly remember declaring There! I'm done with my 1982 tax return! BIG mistake :(
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com writes: Apparently, though unproven, at 02:13 on Thursday 13 January 2011, Nuno J. Silva did opine thusly: Well, I think it's still possible to use INT13 for disk access :-) You horrible person. I just went 13 years without hearing that thing's name mentioned not even once. Wait? You hear about INT13 for the first time in 13 years, in January 13? What a shame it's not Friday... You have just broken that winning streak. You are a horrible person. You may have a point here, but I'd blame the guy who conceived it ;-) sarcasm But, please understand! I want to be able to boot and use MS-DOS 4 on my brand-new eight-core 3GHz 8GiB RAM machine! Emulators are *slow*! /sarcasm -- Nuno J. Silva gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On Thursday 13 January 2011 01:02:30 Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 02:35 on Thursday 13 January 2011, Peter Humphrey did opine thusly: On Wednesday 12 January 2011 23:22:12 Jacob Todd wrote: That makes perfect fucking sense. Would you please not use gratuitously offensive language on this list? Thank you. I disagree. Then you're wrong. Perhaps you've been watching too many American films. There's nothing gratuitous about it. It's perfectly suited for the purpose, in this particular case. No it is not: there's no need for it. it adds nothing useful, and it makes one wince. The sense would not have been changed by omitting it. It's another sign of the progress towards the dogs of this society we're subjected to. I expected better of you. -- Rgds Peter.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
walt wrote: On 01/12/2011 04:17 PM, Dale wrote: I just learned a long time ago to never say I am done with anything. We never know what will happen that makes us go back and fix something else. I distinctly remember declaring There! I'm done with my 1982 tax return! BIG mistake :( I'd rather switch to grub2 and enable hal at the same time than to mess with the tax man. [[ SEVERELY OFF TOPIC ]] Reminds me of a old joke. Man gets a letter that he is being audited by the IRS. His friends tell him he better get everything ready for the audit in case he made a mistake. He said he wasn't worried because they can't get blood out of a turnip. Well, his day comes and the auditor calls him in his office. He sees a jar on the desk. The auditor tells him he found a few mistakes and deductions that were not allowed. The guy was sitting there trying to figure out what was in the jar but wasn't even concerned about the auditor. Finally after the auditor talked a while, it got the better of him and he asked what that was in the jar. The auditor said it was turnip blood. The guy excused himself and called his wife. He needed a change of clothes because tho he never had tummy trouble before, he did just then. He was in trouble after all and his friends was right. [[END OFF TOPIC ]] Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Get off your high horse. If I wouldn't of said 'that makes perfect fucking sense, ' what I was trying to convey wouldn't have had the emotion it needed. 'That makes perfect sense' seems to 'off-hand,' without any real feeling to the statement. What it really says is 'that doesn't make any sense, but I really don't care that much.' That was not was I was trying say, what I was trying to say was 'that makes perfect fucking sense.' It adds all of the emotion (sarcasm, in case you didn't notice) to the sentence, while still being concise. Hope that clears things up. On Jan 12, 2011 9:01 PM, Peter Humphrey pe...@humphrey.ukfsn.org wrote:
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 22:51, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: walt wrote: On 01/10/2011 01:37 PM, Dale wrote: pk wrote: On 2011-01-10 14:05, walt wrote: You guys may be losing interest in grub2, but I'm having fun, so... Although I've not been involved in this discussion I still enjoy your progress (I've been meaning to try out grub2 myself since grub1 is basically EOLed but haven't had the time yet)... please continue! Same here. I'm noticing how complicated this thing is. I'm sorry I've given that impression -- the complicated part is finding comprehensible examples to copy, but thanks to your previous links I'm gaining on it. I'm now able to write a functioning grub.cfg file for grub2, but I don't want to publish prematurely ;) It wasn't just you, it was other things I read too. Does it have audio too? Yes, but very primitive. No speech, but you can give it a series of numbers representing tones and durations -- to make it sound like a video game arcade. If you really want to. But I don't. Oh God, it can make sounds. O_O My first impression of grub2 was PAIN. In a foolish attempt to beautify my Desktop, I thought about installing a clean framebuffer logo for boot, and, why not, beautify the bootloader too. Gosh, 2 hours spent in an effort to configure, useless. I don't remember the exact error, but an hour of trying and I quit. Well, it messed the whole boot, so it took me twice the time spent on configuring to get rid of the thing. I never realized how happy I was with simple grub. Gosh, I even missed LILO while fighting with grub2. And LILO was a pain too, but I knew that when I first had to use it. -- Daniel da Veiga
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On Tuesday 11 January 2011 15:18:53 Daniel da Veiga wrote: On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 22:51, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: walt wrote: On 01/10/2011 01:37 PM, Dale wrote: pk wrote: On 2011-01-10 14:05, walt wrote: You guys may be losing interest in grub2, but I'm having fun, so... Although I've not been involved in this discussion I still enjoy your progress (I've been meaning to try out grub2 myself since grub1 is basically EOLed but haven't had the time yet)... please continue! Same here. I'm noticing how complicated this thing is. I'm sorry I've given that impression -- the complicated part is finding comprehensible examples to copy, but thanks to your previous links I'm gaining on it. I'm now able to write a functioning grub.cfg file for grub2, but I don't want to publish prematurely ;) It wasn't just you, it was other things I read too. Does it have audio too? Yes, but very primitive. No speech, but you can give it a series of numbers representing tones and durations -- to make it sound like a video game arcade. If you really want to. But I don't. Oh God, it can make sounds. O_O My first impression of grub2 was PAIN. In a foolish attempt to beautify my Desktop, I thought about installing a clean framebuffer logo for boot, and, why not, beautify the bootloader too. Gosh, 2 hours spent in an effort to configure, useless. I don't remember the exact error, but an hour of trying and I quit. Well, it messed the whole boot, so it took me twice the time spent on configuring to get rid of the thing. I never realized how happy I was with simple grub. Gosh, I even missed LILO while fighting with grub2. And LILO was a pain too, but I knew that when I first had to use it. Same here, I messed up an installation trying different things because the grub2 splash would not work. Probably early days back then and this was a feature not working as it should. -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On 01/09/2011 11:07 AM, walt wrote: NOTE: I can't recall exactly why but the ata* modules conflict with some other modules, so *don't use them* unless you know what you are doing. NOTE: if grub2 names your disks (ataN,N) instead of (hdN,N) that means you are using the ata* grub2 modules -- I haven't figured out how to make that configuration work yet. I believe the ata*.mods conflict with biosdisk.mod. The biosdisk.mod is accepting what the BIOS announces about the drives, but ata.mod is probing the hardware directly instead of listening to the BIOS. I think. Anyway after removing biosdkisk.mod, the ata.mod works very well (but doesn't find any USB sticks, which are not ATA devices. I think :) BTW, the 'search' command (in the grub2 shell) will do the following: search -l BOOT -s root search -l BOOT finds the disk label of my /boot partition, which happens to be BOOT in my case, and the -s root sets the shell variable 'root' to point at the /boot partition, which happens to be (hd1,5) in my case. In other words, that search command does at boot time what this menu item root (hd1,5) does, but I don't need to know the (hd1,5) in advance, I only need to know the disk label BOOT and grub2 will go find it in real time. Now I just need to look up what to put in grub.conf to make it automatic. You guys may be losing interest in grub2, but I'm having fun, so...
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On 2011-01-10 14:05, walt wrote: You guys may be losing interest in grub2, but I'm having fun, so... Although I've not been involved in this discussion I still enjoy your progress (I've been meaning to try out grub2 myself since grub1 is basically EOLed but haven't had the time yet)... please continue! Best regards Peter K
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
pk wrote: On 2011-01-10 14:05, walt wrote: You guys may be losing interest in grub2, but I'm having fun, so... Although I've not been involved in this discussion I still enjoy your progress (I've been meaning to try out grub2 myself since grub1 is basically EOLed but haven't had the time yet)... please continue! Best regards Peter K Same here. I'm noticing how complicated this thing is. This sort of feels like installing a OS to boot a OS. lol Does it have audio too? I'm expecting you to post that you turned up the volume and realized it is talking to you. o_O Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
walt wrote: On 01/10/2011 01:37 PM, Dale wrote: pk wrote: On 2011-01-10 14:05, walt wrote: You guys may be losing interest in grub2, but I'm having fun, so... Although I've not been involved in this discussion I still enjoy your progress (I've been meaning to try out grub2 myself since grub1 is basically EOLed but haven't had the time yet)... please continue! Same here. I'm noticing how complicated this thing is. I'm sorry I've given that impression -- the complicated part is finding comprehensible examples to copy, but thanks to your previous links I'm gaining on it. I'm now able to write a functioning grub.cfg file for grub2, but I don't want to publish prematurely ;) It wasn't just you, it was other things I read too. Does it have audio too? Yes, but very primitive. No speech, but you can give it a series of numbers representing tones and durations -- to make it sound like a video game arcade. If you really want to. But I don't. Oh God, it can make sounds. O_O Dale :-) :-)
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On 01/09/2011 04:10 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 02:44 on Sunday 09 January 2011, Dale did opine thusly: I have not tried grub2 yet but I did fine these: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2 http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Grub2 http://grub.enbug.org/grub.cfg Thanks Dale, the ubuntu link may be what I need. I don't quite agree with Volker's viewpoint but don't totally disagree with him either. grub2 has a whole whack of bloat all of it's own. Indeed it does, except for grub.info, which is not nearly complete. Methinks a modular build system is in order here. Why should I build support for sparc when I know for a fact I'm building an x86 installer? Here is how I do that manually, FWIW. (I've not run the grub2 install scripts because I haven't read them yet, which makes me nervous in a boot loader :) $cd ~/src#in my home directory, so I don't need root $tar -xvzf /usr/portage/distfiles/grub-1.98.tar.gz $cd grub-1.98 $./configure --prefix=$HOME --disable-werror $make all install At this point grub2 has merely saved some files in your home directory, it has *not* messed with your boot sector or touched legacy grub in any way. $ls ~/bin/grub* /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-bin2h /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-mkisofs /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-editenv /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-mkpasswd-pbkdf2 /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-fstest /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-mkrelpath /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-mkelfimage /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-mkrescue /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-mkfont /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-script-check /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-mkimage $ls ~/lib/grub/i386-pc/ acpi.mod font.mod linux16.modreboot.mod affs.mod fs.lstlnxboot.imgreiserfs.mod afs.modfshelp.modloadenv.modrelocator.mod dozens more grub2 modules snipped for brevity That's where the bloat comes from, as you pointed out. There are tons of those *.mod files you won't need, so the trick is to compile a list of them you *do* need, and then feed the list to grub-mkimage as described below. NOTE: I can't recall exactly why but the ata* modules conflict with some other modules, so *don't use them* unless you know what you are doing. Create a list of all grub2 modules: $ls ~/lib/grub/i386pc/*.mod /tmp/modlist Now edit that file and delete any modules you know you don't need, e.g. I deleted reiserfs.mod and ntfs.mod and the raid*.mod because I don't use those items. Don't touch anything you don't clearly recognize, but *do* delete ata.mod and ata_pthru.mod. Now it's time to build the grub2 binary executable: $~/bin/grub-mkimage -o /tmp/grub2bin `cat /tmp/modlist` Your file grub2bin is actually formatted as a tiny pseudo kernel, which your legacy grub can boot using the usual grub sytax: title try grub2 root (hdX,X) kernel /tmp/grub2bin (or wherever else you want to put it. NOTE: so far I've done nothing requiring root privileges :) That menu item will start a grub2 running so you can experiment with it all you want, but still use legacy grub to boot as you always do. (You won't yet have a menu file for grub2, so you will see only the usual grub command prompt instead of a menu.) The grub2 shell is a bit different, so you might want to type set to see what variables you can change, ls to see your disks, and of course hit the tab key when you don't know what else to type. Type help search for the real excitement. A few more grub2 differences: the 'linux' command replaces 'kernel' to load your (linux) kernel. 'multiboot' is used to load any true multiboot kernel e.g. NetBSD. Not sure, but I think you still need to chainload the Windows booter -- sadly, I can't test it anymore :D One problem I encountered on my old amd32 machine is that I had to remove the USB-related grub2 modules or grub2 would crash while probing for disks. The newer amd64 machine works fine with the USB stuff included. Dunno why. NOTE: if grub2 names your disks (ataN,N) instead of (hdN,N) that means you are using the ata* grub2 modules -- I haven't figured out how to make that configuration work yet.
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On 01/09/2011 12:04 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote: grub2 now looks like GNU/grub (sarcasm intended). It's not a bootloader, it's a puny OS with one extra feature - it can bootload! You remember the vi versus emacs wars?
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
walt wrote: On 01/09/2011 04:10 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 02:44 on Sunday 09 January 2011, Dale did opine thusly: I have not tried grub2 yet but I did fine these: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2 http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Grub2 http://grub.enbug.org/grub.cfg Thanks Dale, the ubuntu link may be what I need. I don't quite agree with Volker's viewpoint but don't totally disagree with him either. grub2 has a whole whack of bloat all of it's own. Indeed it does, except for grub.info, which is not nearly complete. Methinks a modular build system is in order here. Why should I build support for sparc when I know for a fact I'm building an x86 installer? Here is how I do that manually, FWIW. (I've not run the grub2 install scripts because I haven't read them yet, which makes me nervous in a boot loader :) $cd ~/src#in my home directory, so I don't need root $tar -xvzf /usr/portage/distfiles/grub-1.98.tar.gz $cd grub-1.98 $./configure --prefix=$HOME --disable-werror $make all install At this point grub2 has merely saved some files in your home directory, it has *not* messed with your boot sector or touched legacy grub in any way. $ls ~/bin/grub* /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-bin2h /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-mkisofs /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-editenv /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-mkpasswd-pbkdf2 /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-fstest /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-mkrelpath /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-mkelfimage /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-mkrescue /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-mkfont /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-script-check /home/wa1ter/bin/grub-mkimage $ls ~/lib/grub/i386-pc/ acpi.mod font.mod linux16.modreboot.mod affs.mod fs.lstlnxboot.imgreiserfs.mod afs.modfshelp.modloadenv.modrelocator.mod dozens more grub2 modules snipped for brevity That's where the bloat comes from, as you pointed out. There are tons of those *.mod files you won't need, so the trick is to compile a list of them you *do* need, and then feed the list to grub-mkimage as described below. NOTE: I can't recall exactly why but the ata* modules conflict with some other modules, so *don't use them* unless you know what you are doing. Create a list of all grub2 modules: $ls ~/lib/grub/i386pc/*.mod /tmp/modlist Now edit that file and delete any modules you know you don't need, e.g. I deleted reiserfs.mod and ntfs.mod and the raid*.mod because I don't use those items. Don't touch anything you don't clearly recognize, but *do* delete ata.mod and ata_pthru.mod. Now it's time to build the grub2 binary executable: $~/bin/grub-mkimage -o /tmp/grub2bin `cat /tmp/modlist` Your file grub2bin is actually formatted as a tiny pseudo kernel, which your legacy grub can boot using the usual grub sytax: title try grub2 root (hdX,X) kernel /tmp/grub2bin (or wherever else you want to put it. NOTE: so far I've done nothing requiring root privileges :) That menu item will start a grub2 running so you can experiment with it all you want, but still use legacy grub to boot as you always do. (You won't yet have a menu file for grub2, so you will see only the usual grub command prompt instead of a menu.) The grub2 shell is a bit different, so you might want to type set to see what variables you can change, ls to see your disks, and of course hit the tab key when you don't know what else to type. Type help search for the real excitement. A few more grub2 differences: the 'linux' command replaces 'kernel' to load your (linux) kernel. 'multiboot' is used to load any true multiboot kernel e.g. NetBSD. Not sure, but I think you still need to chainload the Windows booter -- sadly, I can't test it anymore :D One problem I encountered on my old amd32 machine is that I had to remove the USB-related grub2 modules or grub2 would crash while probing for disks. The newer amd64 machine works fine with the USB stuff included. Dunno why. NOTE: if grub2 names your disks (ataN,N) instead of (hdN,N) that means you are using the ata* grub2 modules -- I haven't figured out how to make that configuration work yet. This sounds about as complicated as lilo. Is this going to end up like hal? You know, so complicated that no one can use the thing and they have to start over again? Dale :-) :-)
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com writes: Apparently, though unproven, at 19:48 on Sunday 09 January 2011, Dale did opine thusly: It has support for jpeg, every fs under the sun, and the grub2 ebuild even has a truetype USE flag. Does it support mp3 or ogg vorbis? Don't tell me I can't make it play the fifth when it boots... Yes! Now my life is complete. I've been DYING for years to have a bootloader that can properly display anti-aliased fonts for the entire 2 seconds it's on- screen I just hope that it is actually able to work in plain VGA mode. Although I like to have framebuffer in the console, I don't think it's actually needed in the bootloader. Also, I suppose it'll be a PITA to configure that (or slow to run it) on some older computers. -- Nuno J. Silva gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
walt w41...@gmail.com writes: On 01/09/2011 12:04 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote: grub2 now looks like GNU/grub (sarcasm intended). It's not a bootloader, it's a puny OS with one extra feature - it can bootload! You remember the vi versus emacs wars? But at least emacs is running in the operating system, not in the bootloader (although that may be in the GRUB roadmap). Someday we will need a bootloader to load grub. -- Nuno J. Silva gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Apparently, though unproven, at 22:50 on Sunday 09 January 2011, walt did opine thusly: On 01/09/2011 12:04 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote: grub2 now looks like GNU/grub (sarcasm intended). It's not a bootloader, it's a puny OS with one extra feature - it can bootload! You remember the vi versus emacs wars? emacs? The complete OS that only lacks an editor to be complete? -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On 01/09/2011 01:19 PM, Nuno J. Silva wrote: Alan McKinnonalan.mckin...@gmail.com writes: Apparently, though unproven, at 19:48 on Sunday 09 January 2011, Dale did opine thusly: It has support for jpeg, every fs under the sun, and the grub2 ebuild even has a truetype USE flag. Does it support mp3 or ogg vorbis? Don't tell me I can't make it play the fifth when it boots... Hm. There *is* a grub2 module 'play.mod' but I haven't tried it yet. If it plays audio files I'll let you know ASAP.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On Sunday 09 January 2011 21:26:38 Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 22:50 on Sunday 09 January 2011, walt did opine thusly: On 01/09/2011 12:04 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote: grub2 now looks like GNU/grub (sarcasm intended). It's not a bootloader, it's a puny OS with one extra feature - it can bootload! You remember the vi versus emacs wars? emacs? The complete OS that only lacks an editor to be complete? Yes! If it could only receive vim commands, it would be perfect! :p -- Regards, Mick signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On Sunday 09 January 2011 23:26:38 Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 22:50 on Sunday 09 January 2011, walt did opine thusly: On 01/09/2011 12:04 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote: grub2 now looks like GNU/grub (sarcasm intended). It's not a bootloader, it's a puny OS with one extra feature - it can bootload! You remember the vi versus emacs wars? emacs? The complete OS that only lacks an editor to be complete? init=/bin/xemacs. Lots of fun, lots of fun. No, seriously, I did it, it worked surprisingly well.
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
Mick michaelkintz...@gmail.com writes: On Sunday 09 January 2011 21:26:38 Alan McKinnon wrote: Apparently, though unproven, at 22:50 on Sunday 09 January 2011, walt did opine thusly: On 01/09/2011 12:04 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote: grub2 now looks like GNU/grub (sarcasm intended). It's not a bootloader, it's a puny OS with one extra feature - it can bootload! You remember the vi versus emacs wars? emacs? The complete OS that only lacks an editor to be complete? Yes! If it could only receive vim commands, it would be perfect! :p Maybe this will do, I never tried it. ,[C-h f viper-mode] | viper-mode is an interactive autoloaded Lisp function in `viper.el'. | | (viper-mode) | | Turn on Viper emulation of Vi in Emacs. See Info node `(viper)Top'. ` -- Nuno J. Silva gopher://sdf-eu.org/1/users/njsg
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On 01/09/2011 01:11 PM, Dale wrote: walt wrote: my grub recipe book snipped for brevity This sounds about as complicated as lilo. Much more complicated, but also more nifty :) Is this going to end up like hal? I certainly hope so! You know, so complicated that no one can use the thing and they have to start over again? rant This mess goes back to IBM's decision to use the Intel 8086 CPU in their shiny new PC and then hire Bill Gates and Paul Allen to write/steal DOS. The result was a brain-dead booting scheme which has been holding back the Intel/x86 world to this very day. (But they all made a huge bundle of cash along the way.) Intel has been trying ever since to correct those early wrong choices by inventing stuff like ACPI and EFI and GPT, et al, but it's been a long time coming. Meanwhile we have a truckload of hacks like lilo, grub1, grub2, syslinux, not to mention M$ boot loaders, which morph with every new release of Windows. /rant (Corrections to my historical mis-recollections are welcome, of course :)
[gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On 01/09/2011 11:07 AM, walt wrote: One problem I encountered on my old amd32 machine is that I had to remove the USB-related grub2 modules or grub2 would crash while probing for disks. The newer amd64 machine works fine with the USB stuff included. Dunno why. By trial-and-error I found that usb_keyboard.mod was the guilty one, but I have no idea why it causes trouble on this machine. Maybe a bug in the BIOS?
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On Sunday 09 January 2011 22:54:14 walt wrote: This mess goes back to IBM's decision to use the Intel 8086 CPU in their shiny new PC What? Little-endian hardware? Crackers: backwards thinking, which Americans seem to me to be prone to. And yes, I did spend two years working in Minneapolis 20 years ago. In the predecessor of that project we had to write common code to run equally well on a GEC machine, with a hardware limit of 8KB of process space but a highly efficient scheduler, and on a Ferranti Argus 700 in which a process could be any size but you couldn't have too many of them. The project failed of course, having been specified by the hardware department: yet another stupid decision. It was replaced with another project that bought a system in from another continent. Anyone remember Empros? Defunct, after gargantuan efforts by all concerned. Whose interest was that in? and then hire Bill Gates and Paul Allen to write/steal DOS. Just about the worst decision ever taken. And that includes politicians. All of them. The result was a brain-dead booting scheme which has been holding back the Intel/x86 world to this very day. (But they all made a huge bundle of cash along the way.) Capitalism? Greed in another word. (Why use one syllable when 5 will do?) Meanwhile we have a truckload of hacks like lilo, grub1, grub2, syslinux, not to mention M$ boot loaders, which morph with every new release of Windows. Come on, why don't you tell us what you think? Don't hold back - I haven't. -- Rgds Peter. Linux Counter 5290, 1994-04-23.
Re: [gentoo-user] Re: A tiny titillating taste of grub2
On Jan 9, 2011 8:11 PM, Peter Humphrey pe...@humphrey.ukfsn.org wrote: On Sunday 09 January 2011 22:54:14 walt wrote: The result was a brain-dead booting scheme which has been holding back the Intel/x86 world to this very day. (But they all made a huge bundle of cash along the way.) Capitalism? Greed in another word. (Why use one syllable when 5 will do?) Of course, if all else fails, blame the capitalists! That argument hasn't been torn to shreds for fifty years or anything.
