Re: [geo] Re: Natural olivine beaches
Do any useful materials tend to occur alongside olivine? If so, using tax incentives to ensure that open cast mining takes place in olivine-rich areas would potentially help greatly. Coarse-ground mine tailings dumped in areas prone to erosion would eventually end up weathering pretty fast. This could be a very simple way of getting some pretty large volumes of CO2 out of the air. A On 5 Oct 2014 09:03, Russell Seitz russellse...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps more to the point,temperate zone serpentinization and tropical weathering of olivine rich rocks like basalts and dunites is proceeding constantly over large inland areas, and whereever such rocks are eroded , comminution in rivers and streams gives rise to olivine particles even smaller than those you have discussed . On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 2:28:29 PM UTC-4, andrewjlockley wrote: Hi The proposal for olivine weathering on beaches seems to pass a common sense test. However, there's been a lack of detailed discussion about the occurrence and function of natural olivine beaches, as far as I'm aware. There are a lot of beaches in the world. Olivine is pretty common. How much of a sink is natural beach chemical and mechanical weathering of olivine? It should be easy to find at least one location where there's massive quantities of olivine sand, and take detailed measurements on the carbon sink. I know there's at least one such beach in the literature, but I can't recall discussions of others, nor detailed quantitative research on erosion and sequestration rates at this site Can someone enlighten me as to why this has seemingly been overlooked for detailed study? A -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups geoengineering group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups geoengineering group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [geo] Re: Natural olivine beaches
It came to my notice in the tropics and sub-tropics where ultramafic rocks exist on some islands, weathered materials like serpentine are washed into rivers etc leading them into mangrove swamps. One in particular is New Caledonia. Pls see link http://newcaledoniaplants.com/plant-catalog/mangrove-plants/ http://newcaledoniaplants.com/plant-catalog/mangrove-plants/ The mangroves are so healthy possibly the result of these nutrients and other chemicals present in the waters. However I also note there is extensive mining on the island and mangroves threatened by toxic chemicals. Another problem is the presence of chrysotile asbestos in the ultramafic rocks is not good for humans. I am interested to study the reaction of mangroves to olivine and other forms of surpentine like lizardite. Much of the coasts of countries in the tropics and sub-tropics can be further protected by natural means if these plants can be grown near coastlines to protect them against erosion, sea-level rises and tsunamis. In addition we may see further CO2 uptake by these forests by reducing the acidification in the surrounding waters. Parminder Singh Malaysia On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Russell Seitz russellse...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps more to the point,temperate zone serpentinization and tropical weathering of olivine rich rocks like basalts and dunites is proceeding constantly over large inland areas, and whereever such rocks are eroded , comminution in rivers and streams gives rise to olivine particles even smaller than those you have discussed . On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 2:28:29 PM UTC-4, andrewjlockley wrote: Hi The proposal for olivine weathering on beaches seems to pass a common sense test. However, there's been a lack of detailed discussion about the occurrence and function of natural olivine beaches, as far as I'm aware. There are a lot of beaches in the world. Olivine is pretty common. How much of a sink is natural beach chemical and mechanical weathering of olivine? It should be easy to find at least one location where there's massive quantities of olivine sand, and take detailed measurements on the carbon sink. I know there's at least one such beach in the literature, but I can't recall discussions of others, nor detailed quantitative research on erosion and sequestration rates at this site Can someone enlighten me as to why this has seemingly been overlooked for detailed study? A -- You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups geoengineering group. To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/geoengineering/a0MAljS4pgs/unsubscribe. To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups geoengineering group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: [geo] 'Clean Coal' With Carbon Capture Debuts in North America (Not in U.S.) - NBC News.com
Better not waste our time and money on CCS, see attachment, Olaf Schuiling -Original Message- From: geoengineering@googlegroups.com [mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Hawkins, Dave Sent: zaterdag 4 oktober 2014 20:58 To: andrew.lock...@gmail.com Cc: geoengineering Subject: Re: [geo] 'Clean Coal' With Carbon Capture Debuts in North America (Not in U.S.) - NBC News.com I went to the launch. CCS is currently expensive but the cost assessment needs to be done in the context of a full suite of methods to achieve deep reductions. When real market drivers for such reductions are adopted we should see cost-reducing innovations stimulated for CCS and a range of competing technologies. It's way to soon to write-off any of the candidates as too costly. Typed on tiny keyboard. Caveat lector. On Oct 4, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Andrew Lockley andrew.lock...@gmail.commailto:andrew.lock...@gmail.com wrote: Poster's note: potentially of interest to air capture types. Cynics may claim that this is simply an expensive piece of subsidized greenwash for the fossil fuels industry - and one that's being used partially to extract even more fossil fuels via EOR. http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/clean-coal-carbon-capture-debuts-north-america-not-u-s-n218221 'Clean Coal' With Carbon Capture Debuts in North America (Not in U.S.) BY JOHN ROACH A first-of-its-kind coal-fired power plant retrofitted with technology to capture and store most of the carbon dioxide produced at one of its boilers officially began operations this week in Saskatchewan, Canada. Meanwhile, a similar project in Illinois to demonstrate a cleaner way to burn the world's most abundant fossil fuel remains in legal and financial limbo.Whether the U.S. government-backed project in Meredosia, Ill., will advance so-called carbon capture and storage, or CCS, technology is an open question, but experts deem the technology itself vital if the world hopes to stand any practical chance at staving off catastrophic climate change.advertisement And CCS is being propelled forward by pollution-control measures such as the Obama admnistration's proposed rules to limit carbon emissions from new and existing power plants. The reason that you want to look at CCS is the math, John Thompson, the director of the Fossil Transition Project at the Clean Air Task Force, a nonprofit that advocates for low-carbon energy technologies, explained to NBC News. About two-thirds of the roughly 30 gigatons of carbon dioxide released by human activity each year comes from the power sector and industrial activities such as oil refining and fertilizer production. These activities are all amenable to carbon capture and storage, Thompson said. In fact, you can capture 90 percent of the CO2 from any one of those particular sources. 'Great bumper sticker' While increased use of nuclear, solar and wind power could replace some coal, gas and oil-fired power plants, they are not an option for most industrial sources of carbon dioxide, he added. Eliminating fossil fuels is a great bumper sticker, he said. It is an ineffective climate solution. To boot, global greenhouse gas emissions are higher than they have ever been and we are building more coal plants every year, Steven Davis, an earth systems scientist at the University of California, Irvine, told NBC News.In fact, current emission and construction trends suggest that the international goal to limit warming to 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit is completely implausible, he said during a presentation of his research at a recentclimate conference in Seattle. Getting anywhere close to the goal, he added in a follow-up interview, will almost certainly require massive deployment of solar and nuclear power along with CCS.But there is a big cost associated with CCS, he noted. It is like 40 or 50 percent more expensive to get energy from a fossil plant if it has CCS. How CCS works Carbon capture and storage is a basket of technologies used to prevent carbon dioxide from escaping to the atmosphere in the course of power generation and other industrial activities. The captured gas is typically injected deep underground where, in theory, it will stay forever. In some cases, this injected gas is used to force out remnant oil from underground deposits, a process known as enhanced oil recovery. It is a natural next step especially for the fossil fuel industry which sees value in CCS because it means we can continue to keep burning their products, Davis said. The Boundary Dam Power Station, owned by SaskPower, is near Estevan, Saskatchewan. The world's first commercial-scale carbon capture and storage project officially opened there this week. The carbon capture approach used at SaskPower's newly retrofitted Boundary Dam Power Plant in Saskatchewan removes the carbon dioxide with a chemical solution after the coal is burned to generate electricity. The captured gas will be
RE: [geo] Re: Natural olivine beaches
Once you do the mining and crushing, you might recover chromite, even if the grade is too low as a chromite ore. Once the mining and crushing is already paid for by the olivine, it may become possible to recover low chromite contents from the crushed olivine. Another possibility is magnesite that is present as veins in some olivine massifs. Olaf Schuiling From: geoengineering@googlegroups.com [mailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Lockley Sent: zondag 5 oktober 2014 10:56 To: Russell Seitz Cc: geoengineering Subject: Re: [geo] Re: Natural olivine beaches Do any useful materials tend to occur alongside olivine? If so, using tax incentives to ensure that open cast mining takes place in olivine-rich areas would potentially help greatly. Coarse-ground mine tailings dumped in areas prone to erosion would eventually end up weathering pretty fast. This could be a very simple way of getting some pretty large volumes of CO2 out of the air. A On 5 Oct 2014 09:03, Russell Seitz russellse...@gmail.commailto:russellse...@gmail.com wrote: Perhaps more to the point,temperate zone serpentinization and tropical weathering of olivine rich rocks like basalts and dunites is proceeding constantly over large inland areas, and whereever such rocks are eroded , comminution in rivers and streams gives rise to olivine particles even smaller than those you have discussed . On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 2:28:29 PM UTC-4, andrewjlockley wrote: Hi The proposal for olivine weathering on beaches seems to pass a common sense test. However, there's been a lack of detailed discussion about the occurrence and function of natural olivine beaches, as far as I'm aware. There are a lot of beaches in the world. Olivine is pretty common. How much of a sink is natural beach chemical and mechanical weathering of olivine? It should be easy to find at least one location where there's massive quantities of olivine sand, and take detailed measurements on the carbon sink. I know there's at least one such beach in the literature, but I can't recall discussions of others, nor detailed quantitative research on erosion and sequestration rates at this site Can someone enlighten me as to why this has seemingly been overlooked for detailed study? A -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups geoengineering group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto:geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.commailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups geoengineering group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto:geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.commailto:geoengineering@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups geoengineering group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to geoengineering+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to geoengineering@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/geoengineering. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [geo] 'Clean Coal' With Carbon Capture Debuts in North America (Not in U.S.) - NBC News.com
What happens if full scale demonstrations of CCS simply confirm what we know so far - that CCS is too expensive in most applications (except for extracting more oil/CO2 out of the ground)? Yes, we need to evaluate a full suite of other point source mitigation options. That is not happening because CCS is viewed as the only game in town in terms of RD funding and in terms of policy formation. We are placing the planet at great risk and strangling technology development if those controlling RD investment and policy continue to think that CCS is our only and best hope for mitigating the 300 GT of CO2* we are now committed to. And while we are at it how about investing in CDR RD, just in case none of the above save the day? Imagine what $2B could do if diverted from one CCS demonstration (of the obvious) project to explore potentially cheaper, better, faster technologies. *http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/9/9/094008/pdf/1748-9326_9_9_094008.pdf Greg From: Hawkins, Dave dhawk...@nrdc.org To: andrew.lock...@gmail.com andrew.lock...@gmail.com Cc: geoengineering geoengineering@googlegroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 4, 2014 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [geo] 'Clean Coal' With Carbon Capture Debuts in North America (Not in U.S.) - NBC News.com I went to the launch. CCS is currently expensive but the cost assessment needs to be done in the context of a full suite of methods to achieve deep reductions. When real market drivers for such reductions are adopted we should see cost-reducing innovations stimulated for CCS and a range of competing technologies. It's way to soon to write-off any of the candidates as too costly. Typed on tiny keyboard. Caveat lector. On Oct 4, 2014, at 1:42 PM, Andrew Lockley andrew.lock...@gmail.commailto:andrew.lock...@gmail.com wrote: Poster's note: potentially of interest to air capture types. Cynics may claim that this is simply an expensive piece of subsidized greenwash for the fossil fuels industry - and one that's being used partially to extract even more fossil fuels via EOR. http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/clean-coal-carbon-capture-debuts-north-america-not-u-s-n218221 'Clean Coal' With Carbon Capture Debuts in North America (Not in U.S.) BY JOHN ROACH A first-of-its-kind coal-fired power plant retrofitted with technology to capture and store most of the carbon dioxide produced at one of its boilers officially began operations this week in Saskatchewan, Canada. Meanwhile, a similar project in Illinois to demonstrate a cleaner way to burn the world's most abundant fossil fuel remains in legal and financial limbo.Whether the U.S. government-backed project in Meredosia, Ill., will advance so-called carbon capture and storage, or CCS, technology is an open question, but experts deem the technology itself vital if the world hopes to stand any practical chance at staving off catastrophic climate change.advertisement And CCS is being propelled forward by pollution-control measures such as the Obama admnistration's proposed rules to limit carbon emissions from new and existing power plants. The reason that you want to look at CCS is the math, John Thompson, the director of the Fossil Transition Project at the Clean Air Task Force, a nonprofit that advocates for low-carbon energy technologies, explained to NBC News. About two-thirds of the roughly 30 gigatons of carbon dioxide released by human activity each year comes from the power sector and industrial activities such as oil refining and fertilizer production. These activities are all amenable to carbon capture and storage, Thompson said. In fact, you can capture 90 percent of the CO2 from any one of those particular sources. 'Great bumper sticker' While increased use of nuclear, solar and wind power could replace some coal, gas and oil-fired power plants, they are not an option for most industrial sources of carbon dioxide, he added. Eliminating fossil fuels is a great bumper sticker, he said. It is an ineffective climate solution. To boot, global greenhouse gas emissions are higher than they have ever been and we are building more coal plants every year, Steven Davis, an earth systems scientist at the University of California, Irvine, told NBC News.In fact, current emission and construction trends suggest that the international goal to limit warming to 3.6 degrees Fahrenheit is completely implausible, he said during a presentation of his research at a recentclimate conference in Seattle. Getting anywhere close to the goal, he added in a follow-up interview, will almost certainly require massive deployment of solar and nuclear power along with CCS.But there is a big cost associated with CCS, he noted. It is like 40 or 50 percent more expensive to get energy from a fossil plant if it has CCS. How CCS works Carbon capture and storage is a basket of technologies used to prevent carbon dioxide from escaping to the
Re: [geo] 'Clean Coal' With Carbon Capture Debuts in North America (Not in U.S.) - NBC News.com
Greg, Your points about underfunding of alternatives to CCS are valid but it does not follow that the remedy, either from a systems perspective or a policy perspective, is to reduce CCS funding. That might result in less funding for CCS and no increase in funding for alternatives. Many advocates for various methods of cutting CO2 emissions and/or drawdown of atmospheric concentrations suffer from a zero-sum syndrome, believing the only viable path for more funding for their favored idea is to argue that some other currently funded approach is receiving too much money. Given where we are on (not) managing human GHG emissions, it is hard to support a claim that CCS or any other approach is receiving too much money. The money may not be being spent optimally on each option but fixing that requires a more surgical approach than just saying don't spend so much. The amount of public funding for different mitigation/compensation approaches is a political matter and requires a political strategy. Part of such a strategy is developing and publicizing analyses showing the potential payoff for investing in each approach. Another, probably more important part of the strategy, is building a substantial constituency for a portfolio of approaches. For the latter, we need to map the potential constituencies and determine the valid messages that are most likely to engage and activate them. (I feel the need to add valid since so many conversations about messaging do not seem to be concerned with whether a message has validity.) I, like many active environmental advocates, assign a high priority to mitigation, with efficiency, renewable energy, and forest protection ranked at the top of the mitigation hierarchy. But I (and a number of advocates I know) do not argue for this trio of actions to the exclusion of other complementary approaches. In my opinion, all potential mitigation approaches should be provided enough private and public funding to assess whether they should be kept in a portfolio. So too with CDR concepts, with due attention paid to ecosystem impacts of such approaches. And even SRM, which I find least appealing, should in my view receive sufficient research dollars to better understand and assess the implications of real-world deployment, should our failures in other areas cause humanity to want to turn to SRM as a complement to mitigation. But to succeed in getting more funding for all these potentially meritorious approaches we need a much bigger constituency than just the members of this listserv and a handful of similar ones. We need to make the case for a portfolio in terms that will appeal first, to committed environmental advocates; second, to industrial players that understand we cannot escape bad results by simply denying the seriousness of climate disruption; third, to business interests who see a market opportunity in helping to implement a climate protection portfolio; fourth, to citizens who believe that governments have an important role to play in helping complex industrial societies pursue human development paths that minimize adverse side effects; fifth, to religious communities that recognize human responsibility to care for our planet as part of their faith. I'm sure others can add to this list. What will not succeed, I am quite sure, is the discourse that happens often on this list, where approaches not favored by a poster are dismissed as a waste and the opinions of groups who have not been persuaded to recognize the value of a broad portfolio approach to climate protection are derided as no-nothings. Greg, please understand I am not aiming these remarks at you. Your post simply stimulated me to pose this topic for a broader discussion on the list. David Sent from my iPad On Oct 5, 2014, at 12:57 PM, Greg Rau gh...@sbcglobal.netmailto:gh...@sbcglobal.net wrote: What happens if full scale demonstrations of CCS simply confirm what we know so far - that CCS is too expensive in most applications (except for extracting more oil/CO2 out of the ground)? Yes, we need to evaluate a full suite of other point source mitigation options. That is not happening because CCS is viewed as the only game in town in terms of RD funding and in terms of policy formation. We are placing the planet at great risk and strangling technology development if those controlling RD investment and policy continue to think that CCS is our only and best hope for mitigating the 300 GT of CO2* we are now committed to. And while we are at it how about investing in CDR RD, just in case none of the above save the day? Imagine what $2B could do if diverted from one CCS demonstration (of the obvious) project to explore potentially cheaper, better, faster technologies. *http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/9/9/094008/pdf/1748-9326_9_9_094008.pdf Greg From: Hawkins, Dave dhawk...@nrdc.orgmailto:dhawk...@nrdc.org To:
