Re: [Gimp-user] Fwd: Re: Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[Marco Ciampa]

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 11:09:22AM -0800, Ken Warner wrote:
> Ohhh the horror

Please,
 * Do not top post
 * Cut unrelated text from the rest of your post.

I find it annoyng, and I see that I am not alone.

Please.

-- 


Marco Ciampa

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Re: [Gimp-user] Fwd: Re: Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[Michaela Baulderstone]

Dear All,
I have been off sick the last 2 weeks with even more sick children. I look
forward to reading this mailing list.usually...!!

I am a "newbie" and am learning a lot from the many courteous and generous
people who answer questions and discuss issues. Particular thanks to the
JPEG discussion contributors recently! Now that was how this list should
work!

Let's all just take the recent flare up as a sign of great passion we all
have for such a worthwhile project as GIMP. Perhaps this is a timely
reminder to review our local email etiquette and stay patient with the
global and cultural melting pot that is the world of GIMP.

My first request would be that all personal replies be sent to the person
concerned only and not to the main list. 

Take care allyou are all doing great work!

Michaela "the newbie"
PS Quote of the day "When reason and emotion meet, reason always loses".



-Original Message-
From: gimp-user-boun...@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu
[mailto:gimp-user-boun...@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu] On Behalf Of Robert L
Cochran
Sent: Tuesday, 19 January 2010 2:17 AM
To: gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Re: [Gimp-user] Fwd: Re: Completely off every imaginable topic;)

I fix computers for a large number of people and a lot of these are 
interested in using Photoshop or lighter-weight versions of the same, 
but they want all the hard work of "fixing up" a photo to be done for 
them instantly in software and they do not want a learning curve with 
this. They want a magic solution. Let the computer and the software do 
the heavy lifting is their motto.

With some of these people -- the ones who are more willing to learn new 
stuff -- I suggest they use Gimp. I download the Windows version for 
them and install it and make sure that they have Gimp help, too. I also 
recommend they buy Akkana Peck's book. I think she wrote the book in a 
very helpful spirit using a format, and with examples, that are exactly 
right for many of my customers.

But I never suggest that these same customers join this mailing list. If 
I do, most or all of them will instantly be burned at stake for the 
crime of their posting styles. These are often older retired people who 
are very sensitive and innocent. And they will not be able to accept 
being lectured for their posting styles. The customer may then associate 
their treatment on this list with me as a service provider, and they 
might just think of me as showing poor manners. I do not want to take 
that risk, because I sell my services. I go to these people's homes, and 
often meet their family members, and they are just ordinary people on 
limited budgets who want to use their computers and a concept that a 
computer can think for them.

I notice that the commercial product forums don't have this issue very 
much -- other list users don't flame based on posting styles, and the 
list moderators try hard to get the question being asked answered. They 
really do welcome new users and beginners. They really want use of their 
product to expand. A user forum for a commercial, paid product is often 
a much more pleasant experience for the user for that reason.

This very thing is one of the biggest roadblocks I see with adoption of 
open source software. Given the choice of a user forum for a paid 
product that treats the customer with respect and courtesy, and a 
similar forum for open source software that often severely punishes 
participation if you don't conform to a set of stylistic conventions, 
where do you think the customer is going to head? That's right, the paid 
product and the courtesy and respect.

In the same way, suppose a customer is given the choice of a polite, 
respectful, smiling me as a technician and a different technician who 
makes often rude and biting remarks and requires conformity to a 
particular style. Which technician is likely to make more money? Me. The 
other tech can stay rude, and without business, too.

Increasing your product adoption is all about providing top service and 
support to go with it -- and with a smile.

Bob


On 01/18/2010 09:53 AM, Robert L Cochran wrote:
> I top post.
>
> I don't think it helps to beat on people for their posting styles. It
> helps simply to respond to the issue under discussion.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On 01/17/2010 11:13 PM, Patrick Horgan wrote:
>
>> Have you ever noticed that people's progress in using, supporting,
>> writing bug reports for, and sometimes even developing for, writing
>> documentation for, or translating for open source software is paralleled
>> by their progress from top-posting to bottom posting to interlinear
>> posting, to intelligent elision with interlinear posting?  I see it on
>> the gimp, and on other lists all the time.
>>
>> Beginners don't know what top posting is.  They don't understand that
>> there's no business to bitch too about open source software.  They don't
>> understand how few people keep open software going.  They're completely
>> ignorant about our 

Re: [Gimp-user] Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[Patrick Horgan]

jolie wrote:
> I'm not sure if English is your first language or not but do you realise what
> you are saying? "Convert people into useful human beings?" 
>   
Nope, Texan is my first language, C/C++ my second and Spanish my third.  
I tend to get overly ironic in all three.
> I get what you mean though, you want beginners to get a warm welcome and when
> they are here a bit longer they will realise what the customs are.
>   
Yes, please.  Interesting that some seem to have taken the post as an 
attack/flame on top posters, instead of a plea to not attack and to 
instead realize that they just don't know about effective email 
communication styles.  Glad you got it.
> I'm all for it. New GIMP users can become developers later on or contribute
> to GIMP in some other way. So I say, be nice, welcoming and understanding to
> them. Besides, it's good to be nice to others. 
>   
Thank you:)

Patrick

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Re: [Gimp-user] Fwd: Re: Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[Daniel Hornung]

On Monday 18 January 2010 20:40:49 Dotan Cohen wrote:
> ...

What a nice little flamewar :)

Too bad that it's on a most-of-the-time-serious mailing list, where it might 
frighten some new, innocent people.

*gets some popcorn*
Daniel


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[Gimp-user] GIMP vs Photoshop

[jolie]

>
>> > There are a few things that GIMP needs to be competitive with PS.
>> 
>> Just a few? :)
>
>Why is it necessary for GIMP to be competitive with PS? GIMP is an
>alternative to PS developed for free use by anyone who wishes to use it.
>As I understand it, it isn't users that GIMP wants, it is developers
>prepared to give freely of their time and expertise.
 If you need the
>advantages that PS has over GIMP then, by all means, buy and use PS but,
>if you want something that does what you want and is free, then use
>GIMP. If you can help to improve GIMP then good for you, if you can't
>then, as it is said, put up or shut up.
>
>Norman
>
>

Are you serious? I help out other GIMP users with their problems on GIMP
forums or this mailing list. I make tutorials for GIMP on youtube and answer
question there too. Made over 50 videos so far and do my best to make them as
clear and helpful as possible. I get many comments from people saying thank
you for helping out. Or comments from  people looking to "photoshop" something
and discovering GIMP.  
I'm also very thankful to all other people who have helped me learn GIMP,
either by answering my questions or making tutorials for me to follow. What
would GIMP be if there wasn't a community to make tutorials and help eachother
and newbies to GIMP.  

If the GIMP user base grows there is more chance that new people will help
with development. The bigger the user base the better, and people who
contribute in the way they can help, be it, answering questions, making
tutorials, translating GIMP or the help documentation etc etc all help GIMP if
you ask me. 

I usually leave the developers alone. But if I feel strongly about something
I think I should have a right to say something and not be told to shut up just
because I'm not a GIMP developer. 

Just for the record, on the few occasion I did say something, the developers
always listened to what I had to say. :)

-- 
jolie (via www.gimpusers.com)
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Re: [Gimp-user] Fwd: Re: Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[Dotan Cohen]

2010/1/18 Ken Warner :
> Ohhh the horror
>

And here you have illustrated that many top-posters do so just to
spite people. I don't need to quote Voltaire to illustrate what that
means.


-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://what-is-what.com
http://gibberish.co.il
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Re: [Gimp-user] Fwd: Re: Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[Ken Warner]

Ohhh the horror

Programmer In Training wrote:
> On 1/18/2010 8:53 AM, Robert L Cochran wrote:
>> I top post.
>>
>> I don't think it helps to beat on people for their posting styles. It 
>> helps simply to respond to the issue under discussion.
>>
>> Bob
> 
> 
> The problem with top posting, a problem no one seems to understand
> despite it being so simple, is that top-posting BREAKS THE NORMAL
> READING BEHAVIOR OF EVERY SINGLE HUMAN ON THE PLANET! We don't read from
> bottom to top, it's top to bottom.
> 
> With top posting you read the solution before you ever learn what the
> problem was. Also, not editing out information you aren't directly
> responding to wastes bandwidth (whether or not broadband penetration is
> high in your country (US is ranked 17th for broadband penetration) is of
> no concern). It wastes bandwidth and takes up extra, unnecessary room on
> a users computer or in their mail account.
> 
> Don't top post, bottom posting is much better, and posting your replies
> directly UNDER the issue you are responding to is best, especially when
> coupled with judicious snipping of unrelated (that is, unrelated to your
> reply of the issue in concern) errata.
> 
> I cannot respond to the issue under discussion when I do not know what
> exactly you are responding to! So to summarize:
> 
> * Don't top post
> * Snip unrelated errata from the rest of the post.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Gimp-user] Fwd: Re: Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[Programmer In Training]

On 1/18/2010 8:53 AM, Robert L Cochran wrote:
> I top post.
> 
> I don't think it helps to beat on people for their posting styles. It 
> helps simply to respond to the issue under discussion.
> 
> Bob


The problem with top posting, a problem no one seems to understand
despite it being so simple, is that top-posting BREAKS THE NORMAL
READING BEHAVIOR OF EVERY SINGLE HUMAN ON THE PLANET! We don't read from
bottom to top, it's top to bottom.

With top posting you read the solution before you ever learn what the
problem was. Also, not editing out information you aren't directly
responding to wastes bandwidth (whether or not broadband penetration is
high in your country (US is ranked 17th for broadband penetration) is of
no concern). It wastes bandwidth and takes up extra, unnecessary room on
a users computer or in their mail account.

Don't top post, bottom posting is much better, and posting your replies
directly UNDER the issue you are responding to is best, especially when
coupled with judicious snipping of unrelated (that is, unrelated to your
reply of the issue in concern) errata.

I cannot respond to the issue under discussion when I do not know what
exactly you are responding to! So to summarize:

* Don't top post
* Snip unrelated errata from the rest of the post.

-- 
PIT



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[Gimp-user] Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[jolie]

>  If we kindly educate them instead of 
>attacking them, (and when appropriate, privately, instead of 
>embarrassing them publicly on the list), we might over time convert some 
>of them to useful human beings. 
>

>Best regards,
>
>Patrick
>


I'm not sure if English is your first language or not but do you realise what
you are saying? "Convert people into useful human beings?" 

I get what you mean though, you want beginners to get a warm welcome and when
they are here a bit longer they will realise what the customs are.

I'm all for it. New GIMP users can become developers later on or contribute
to GIMP in some other way. So I say, be nice, welcoming and understanding to
them. Besides, it's good to be nice to others. 

The forums on GIMP are very welcoming to newbies, the mailing list a little
less so, but it's not that bad.  

-- 
jolie (via www.gimpusers.com)
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Re: [Gimp-user] Fwd: Re: Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[Robert L Cochran]

I fix computers for a large number of people and a lot of these are 
interested in using Photoshop or lighter-weight versions of the same, 
but they want all the hard work of "fixing up" a photo to be done for 
them instantly in software and they do not want a learning curve with 
this. They want a magic solution. Let the computer and the software do 
the heavy lifting is their motto.

With some of these people -- the ones who are more willing to learn new 
stuff -- I suggest they use Gimp. I download the Windows version for 
them and install it and make sure that they have Gimp help, too. I also 
recommend they buy Akkana Peck's book. I think she wrote the book in a 
very helpful spirit using a format, and with examples, that are exactly 
right for many of my customers.

But I never suggest that these same customers join this mailing list. If 
I do, most or all of them will instantly be burned at stake for the 
crime of their posting styles. These are often older retired people who 
are very sensitive and innocent. And they will not be able to accept 
being lectured for their posting styles. The customer may then associate 
their treatment on this list with me as a service provider, and they 
might just think of me as showing poor manners. I do not want to take 
that risk, because I sell my services. I go to these people's homes, and 
often meet their family members, and they are just ordinary people on 
limited budgets who want to use their computers and a concept that a 
computer can think for them.

I notice that the commercial product forums don't have this issue very 
much -- other list users don't flame based on posting styles, and the 
list moderators try hard to get the question being asked answered. They 
really do welcome new users and beginners. They really want use of their 
product to expand. A user forum for a commercial, paid product is often 
a much more pleasant experience for the user for that reason.

This very thing is one of the biggest roadblocks I see with adoption of 
open source software. Given the choice of a user forum for a paid 
product that treats the customer with respect and courtesy, and a 
similar forum for open source software that often severely punishes 
participation if you don't conform to a set of stylistic conventions, 
where do you think the customer is going to head? That's right, the paid 
product and the courtesy and respect.

In the same way, suppose a customer is given the choice of a polite, 
respectful, smiling me as a technician and a different technician who 
makes often rude and biting remarks and requires conformity to a 
particular style. Which technician is likely to make more money? Me. The 
other tech can stay rude, and without business, too.

Increasing your product adoption is all about providing top service and 
support to go with it -- and with a smile.

Bob


On 01/18/2010 09:53 AM, Robert L Cochran wrote:
> I top post.
>
> I don't think it helps to beat on people for their posting styles. It
> helps simply to respond to the issue under discussion.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On 01/17/2010 11:13 PM, Patrick Horgan wrote:
>
>> Have you ever noticed that people's progress in using, supporting,
>> writing bug reports for, and sometimes even developing for, writing
>> documentation for, or translating for open source software is paralleled
>> by their progress from top-posting to bottom posting to interlinear
>> posting, to intelligent elision with interlinear posting?  I see it on
>> the gimp, and on other lists all the time.
>>
>> Beginners don't know what top posting is.  They don't understand that
>> there's no business to bitch too about open source software.  They don't
>> understand how few people keep open software going.  They're completely
>> ignorant about our culture.  They don't know how happy people will be if
>> they write intelligent bugs, or offer to make documentation better.
>> They don't understand that the people providing support for them are
>> potentially them.
>>
>> I guess the point is that it's easy to be annoyed by an ignorant
>> beginner, (definitely speaking from experience), and they make
>> themselves even more annoying by top posting when responding to
>> messages, not knowing that it looks like they are deliberately making it
>> harder to follow the conversation.  If we kindly educate them instead of
>> attacking them, (and when appropriate, privately, instead of
>> embarrassing them publicly on the list), we might over time convert some
>> of them to useful human beings.
>>
>> I really like the way Sven invites people to contribute.  For people not
>> used to open source it's startling, and sometimes his invitation to be
>> part of the solution is mistaken for an unwillingness to help.  They've
>> got this strange sense of learned helplessness.  Even though few of
>> those invited will ever contribute, some do, and some of those who don't
>> contribute right away, have been started thinking about it by Sven and
>> eventuall

Re: [Gimp-user] Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[Jon Cosby]

On Sun, 2010-01-17 at 20:13 -0800, Patrick Horgan wrote:
> Have you ever noticed that people's progress in using, supporting, 
> writing bug reports for, and sometimes even developing for, writing 
> documentation for, or translating for open source software is paralleled 
> by their progress from top-posting to bottom posting to interlinear 
> posting, to intelligent elision with interlinear posting?  I see it on 
> the gimp, and on other lists all the time.
> 

There's worse. At work, people have started dropping the entire context
at the support desk. We've been getting some replies as ambiguous as "It
didn't work."



Jon Cosby


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[Gimp-user] Fwd: Re: Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[Robert L Cochran]

I top post.

I don't think it helps to beat on people for their posting styles. It 
helps simply to respond to the issue under discussion.

Bob


On 01/17/2010 11:13 PM, Patrick Horgan wrote:
> Have you ever noticed that people's progress in using, supporting,
> writing bug reports for, and sometimes even developing for, writing
> documentation for, or translating for open source software is paralleled
> by their progress from top-posting to bottom posting to interlinear
> posting, to intelligent elision with interlinear posting?  I see it on
> the gimp, and on other lists all the time.
>
> Beginners don't know what top posting is.  They don't understand that
> there's no business to bitch too about open source software.  They don't
> understand how few people keep open software going.  They're completely
> ignorant about our culture.  They don't know how happy people will be if
> they write intelligent bugs, or offer to make documentation better.
> They don't understand that the people providing support for them are
> potentially them.
>
> I guess the point is that it's easy to be annoyed by an ignorant
> beginner, (definitely speaking from experience), and they make
> themselves even more annoying by top posting when responding to
> messages, not knowing that it looks like they are deliberately making it
> harder to follow the conversation.  If we kindly educate them instead of
> attacking them, (and when appropriate, privately, instead of
> embarrassing them publicly on the list), we might over time convert some
> of them to useful human beings.
>
> I really like the way Sven invites people to contribute.  For people not
> used to open source it's startling, and sometimes his invitation to be
> part of the solution is mistaken for an unwillingness to help.  They've
> got this strange sense of learned helplessness.  Even though few of
> those invited will ever contribute, some do, and some of those who don't
> contribute right away, have been started thinking about it by Sven and
> eventually will contribute.  On the lilypond list, it's Graham the
> curmudgeon that keeps inviting people.  It works.
>
> If instead we attack them, we make of ourselves boors, and drive away
> people that might have been of great help eventually.  Some of those
> driven away are lurkers not even involved in the communication.  I know
> that some have more patience than others, but if you can't stand
> beginners acting like beginners, it's only necessary to ignore them.
> One of my favorite proverbs is, "Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace,
> is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of
> understanding", or the more modern proverb "Better to be thought a fool
> than to open your mouth and remove all doubt";)
>
> People that are going to insist on being idiots go away pretty quickly
> if ignored.  I know people that have been around for years already know
> all this, but there might be one or two on this list who need a gentle
> reminder.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Patrick
>
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>
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Re: [Gimp-user] Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[Jon Cosby]

On Mon, 2010-01-18 at 05:45 -0800, Ken Warner wrote:
> Luckily, that's just your opinion -- and your problem.
> 



It's the same on nearly all mailing lists, Ken. Patrick is being far
more polite about it than some.



Jon Cosby


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Re: [Gimp-user] JPG file size increases with saving

[Frank Gore]

>> But a much better and simpler idea is to just use a
>> number range from 1..13, similar to photoshop.
>>
>> I'll take that over to the developer's list.

I disagree, I think Photoshop's way of displaying the JPG compression
slider is ridiculous. You can move the slider back and forth within a
very wide range before the corresponding number changes. And since the
slider doesn't spring back to a pre-determined spot on the line, that
means one could select a different grade of "level 8" depending on
where the slider is positioned. You can actually see this by looking
at the file size. If I select the lower range of "level 8", the file
is smaller than if I pick the higher range of "level 8". This has
always bugged me since the dawn of Photoshop (I started using it at
version 4.0 back in 1997). I far prefer the Gimp method of displaying
this setting.

> Is this any help, I came across it a long time ago?
>
> Here is a table that provides an approximate mapping between Photoshop
> quality levels and GIMP (actually IJG JPEG library) quality levels:

Now that's awesome. I always wondered what the correlation was. And I
always worried that Adobe was ignoring the subsampling aspect, now I
know better. It's also interesting to see that they don't allow
anything lower than 8...@2x2.

-- 
Frank Gore
Project Manager
www.projectpontiac.com
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Re: [Gimp-user] JPG file size increases with saving

[Norman Silverstone]

< snip >

> But a much better and simpler idea is to just use a
> number range from 1..13, similar to photoshop.
> 
> I'll take that over to the developer's list.

Is this any help, I came across it a long time ago?

Here is a table that provides an approximate mapping between Photoshop
quality levels and GIMP (actually IJG JPEG library) quality levels:

Adobe Photoshop quality 12  <=  GIMP quality 98, subsampling 1x1
Adobe Photoshop quality 11  <=  GIMP quality 95, subsampling 1x1
Adobe Photoshop quality 10  <=  GIMP quality 93, subsampling 1x1
Adobe Photoshop quality 9   <=  GIMP quality 91, subsampling 1x1
Adobe Photoshop quality 8   <=  GIMP quality 90, subsampling 1x1
Adobe Photoshop quality 7   <=  GIMP quality 89, subsampling 1x1
Adobe Photoshop quality 6   <=  GIMP quality 90, subsampling 2x2
Adobe Photoshop quality 5   <=  GIMP quality 89, subsampling 2x2
Adobe Photoshop quality 4   <=  GIMP quality 88, subsampling 2x2
Adobe Photoshop quality 3   <=  GIMP quality 88, subsampling 2x2
Adobe Photoshop quality 2   <=  GIMP quality 87, subsampling 2x2
Adobe Photoshop quality 1   <=  GIMP quality 86, subsampling 2x2
Adobe Photoshop quality 0   <=  GIMP quality 85, subsampling 2x2

Norman

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Re: [Gimp-user] Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[Programmer In Training]

On 1/18/2010 7:45 AM, Ken Warner wrote:
> Luckily, that's just your opinion -- and your problem.


Unfortunately when you top post, you make it everyone's problem. It's
lazy and inconsiderate. Top-posting breaks the natural method of reading
(top to bottom) and that's the only reason against it (and should be the
only reason not to top post).
-- 
PIT



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Re: [Gimp-user] Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[Ken Warner]

Luckily, that's just your opinion -- and your problem.

phanisvara das wrote:
> On Monday 18 January 2010 06:53:26 pm Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
>> Dude, I never ran any related research, but I 'm sure as hell that I
>> do all sorts of posting depending on situation. Does it make me Dr.
>> Jackill and Mr. Hyde? :) I'm also quite sure that I'm not alone in
>> this.
> 
> in my opinion, as long as you actually do think and choose your posting 
> style according to the situation, that's fine. what's obnoxious is 
> people using whatever defaul their email client comes up with, 
> subjecting others to scrolling thru' tons of unnecessary stuff, or 
> making it difficult or impossible to find out what they're talking about 
> because there's no context to be found.
> 
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Re: [Gimp-user] Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[phanisvara das]

On Monday 18 January 2010 06:53:26 pm Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> Dude, I never ran any related research, but I 'm sure as hell that I
> do all sorts of posting depending on situation. Does it make me Dr.
> Jackill and Mr. Hyde? :) I'm also quite sure that I'm not alone in
> this.

in my opinion, as long as you actually do think and choose your posting 
style according to the situation, that's fine. what's obnoxious is 
people using whatever defaul their email client comes up with, 
subjecting others to scrolling thru' tons of unnecessary stuff, or 
making it difficult or impossible to find out what they're talking about 
because there's no context to be found.

-- 
phani.
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Re: [Gimp-user] Completely off every imaginable topic;)

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On 1/18/10, Patrick Horgan wrote:
> Have you ever noticed that people's progress in using, supporting,
> writing bug reports for, and sometimes even developing for, writing
> documentation for, or translating for open source software is paralleled
> by their progress from top-posting to bottom posting to interlinear
> posting, to intelligent elision with interlinear posting?  I see it on
> the gimp, and on other lists all the time.

Dude, I never ran any related research, but I 'm sure as hell that I
do all sorts of posting depending on situation. Does it make me Dr.
Jackill and Mr. Hyde? :) I'm also quite sure that I'm not alone in
this.

Alexandre
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[Gimp-user] New GUG site available

[Claus Cyrny]

Hi again,


since I am able to post to the list again, here's a post of
mine that came back initially.

After the old GUG (Gimp User Group) website had been
shut down, a new site is up again at

http://gug.criticalhit.dk/

So far, there are the old tutorials and a few posts
available. It seems to me that this new site isn't that
well-known yet, so I'm posting this here.

Claus

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Re: [Gimp-user] JPG file size increases with saving

[Claus Cyrny]

Philip Rhoades wrote:

Cristi,


On 2010-01-16 06:55, Cristian Secară wrote:
  

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010 21:56:40 +1100, Philip Rhoades wrote:



- When saving as JPG with 85% quality am I losing information?
  

Yes, but still with the same 85% quality you may obtain different
results by changing other parameters.

Just look at the following example. Note the file size for each, but
most of all, look at the color quality and the outline of objects
(the files are quite small; save them somewhere and look at them by
switching forth and back so you can notice the differences).
The JPEG were both saved with 85%, but one with subsample for best
quality and the other with subsample for minimum file size:

http://www.secarica.ro/misc/monopoly.bmp
http://www.secarica.ro/misc/monopoly.png
http://www.secarica.ro/misc/monopoly_gimp_hi_quality.jpg
http://www.secarica.ro/misc/monopoly_gimp_minim_size.jpg

Take the .bmp and do further tests with the save options.




Yep, the only one where I could see a difference was with the last one.

It still seems counter intuitive that opening a JPG (even if it is a 
photo rather than a computer generated image) and immediately saving it 
with 100% "quality" increases the size by 2.5 . 
  


The exampe image is actually not well-suited for JPG. For this one,
indexed PNG would work much better. Som, this comparisonis actually
misleading. It would actually be better use a photo for this.

When I was still using Windows (I'm under Ubuntu "Karmic" now), I used
Ulead's SmartSaver, where one can view the original & the optimized image
at the same time and tweak the settings until one is satisfied with the 
result.


I usually have compression set to '90%'. Due to quality reasons, I never go
below that. Additionally, for DCT (Discrete Cosinus Transformation), I am
using 'Fast Integer', not 'Floating Point' (further loss, AFAIK). ('DCT' 
is part

of the JPG compression process, which works in several steps.)

Claus

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Re: [Gimp-user] JPG file size increases with saving

[yahvuu]

Philip Rhoades wrote:
> Peter,
> 
> 
> On 2010-01-18 20:40, yahvuu wrote:
>> Philip Rhoades wrote:
>>> It still seems counter intuitive that opening a JPG (even if it is a
>>> photo rather than a computer generated image) and immediately saving it
>>> with 100% "quality" increases the size by 2.5 . .
>>
>> so you mean the scale should be different? Like
>>
>> 1 .. 10 ... 100 ... 10
>>   ^ ^
>>   |  \ extravagant luxury quality for the filthy rich
>>  current "90"
>>   default
> 
> 
> ?? - that's an odd comment . .

oh yeah, i should have been more clear.
Now that you and me and probably a few others have learned something new
about JPG peculiarities, i was brainstorming how the user interface could
be tweaked to avoid misleading associations.

Above diagram was intended to depict a logarithmic scale for the quality value,
where the numbers relate to the typical growth in file size [1].

But a much better and simpler idea is to just use a
number range from 1..13, similar to photoshop.

I'll take that over to the developer's list.

regards,
peter



[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Quality_comparison_jpg_vs_saveforweb.jpg

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Re: [Gimp-user] JPG file size increases with saving

[Philip Rhoades]

Peter,


On 2010-01-18 20:40, yahvuu wrote:
> Philip Rhoades wrote:
>> It still seems counter intuitive that opening a JPG (even if it is a
>> photo rather than a computer generated image) and immediately saving it
>> with 100% "quality" increases the size by 2.5 . .
>
> so you mean the scale should be different? Like
>
> 1 .. 10 ... 100 ... 10
>   ^ ^
>   |  \ extravagant luxury quality for the filthy rich
>  current "90"
>   default


?? - that's an odd comment . .


> i'm not shure if that would not create even more confusion...


I think an "average" user would expect a saved file with a "quality" of 
100% to be the same as the original file ie the same specs and file size . .


> PS: as Michael Schumacher previously noted, the quality value
>  is indeed just a number, not a percentage.


Yes, but misleading . .

Regards,

Phil.
-- 
Philip Rhoades

GPO Box 3411
Sydney NSW  2001
Australia
E-mail:  p...@pricom.com.au
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Re: [Gimp-user] JPG file size increases with saving

[yahvuu]

Philip Rhoades wrote:
> It still seems counter intuitive that opening a JPG (even if it is a 
> photo rather than a computer generated image) and immediately saving it 
> with 100% "quality" increases the size by 2.5 . .

so you mean the scale should be different? Like

1 .. 10 ... 100 ... 10
 ^ ^
 |  \ extravagant luxury quality for the filthy rich
current "90"
 default


i'm not shure if that would not create even more confusion...

regards,
peter


PS: as Michael Schumacher previously noted, the quality value
is indeed just a number, not a percentage.

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