Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Bill McGonigle]

On Oct 26, 2005, at 10:59, Travis Roy wrote:

As others have pointed out, if you have a cell phone you can already 
be tracked.


Case in point:

  http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/news/local/12849605.htm

"There is absolutely no privacy threat whatsoever," said Pete Rahn, 
director of the Missouri Department of Transportation.


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Re: Toll Booths (Was: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th)

[Neil Schelly]

> I don't think this is true. In nearly all the cases I have seen, they are
> taking existing cash-only booths and making them cash and Fast Lane.
> I have not see one case where they have reduced existing Fast Lane booths
> to
> dual use.

Exits 9 and 10 are often down to only one dedicated FastLane booth, when
they have always had 2 before.  One of the dedicated ones in each case has
switched to usually being a hybrid.  I imagine this is less often the case
in the city if that's where you're talking about.
-Neil
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Re: Toll Booths (Was: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th)

[Jerry Feldman]

On Thursday 27 October 2005 9:41 am, Neil Schelly wrote:
> My qualm here is that they are turning FastLane-only booths to
> FastLane/Cash booths outside of the city at least.  That effectively
> makes another cash booth and takes away a FastLane booth.  The cash
> booths are getting quicker and the FastLane booths are getting slower.
I don't think this is true. In nearly all the cases I have seen, they are 
taking existing cash-only booths and making them cash and Fast Lane.
I have not see one case where they have reduced existing Fast Lane booths to 
dual use.
-- 
Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Re: Toll Booths (Was: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th)

[Neil Schelly]

> Has anyone been to Atlanta? The EZ-Pass style toll system is what it
> should be like anywhere they have an auto-payment type system. You can go
> 80mph through the toll plaza. They have two larger lanes on the left side
> of the highway and you can zip through like it wasn't even there. Your
> little transponder beeps and all is well.

This seems to be the direction MA is headed anyway - I know at least a few
places have these more separated FastLane paths now.  They aren't quite
safe at 80MPH, but I don't expect they can redo the entire tolling system
for that in a day.  At least I hope that's why they're doing it this way
on some of the newer tolls.

> EZ-Pass seems silly when you still have to wait in like 5-6 cars deep.
> Sure it moves faster, but when the cash (now also ez-pass) lanes only have
> on person, and the coin lanes have 2-3, it seems silly.

My qualm here is that they are turning FastLane-only booths to
FastLane/Cash booths outside of the city at least.  That effectively makes
another cash booth and takes away a FastLane booth.  The cash booths are
getting quicker and the FastLane booths are getting slower.

I love the idea of making FastLane booths out of all the cash booths, but
the whole point of FastLane is the dedicated FastLane booths.  The lines
are getting longer there and shorter in the cash booths because it's
cheaper to turn a FastLane booth into a FastLane/cash booth than to turn a
cash booth into a hybrid.

Eh well... they'll get there eventually.

> Then yo go through NY and they have GATES on the EZ-Pass lanes that you
> have to actually stop and wait for the gate to raise up... what's the
> point!

And that's why NY/NJ drivers shouldn't be allowed on the Mass Pike.  They
all stop in the toll booths, even with everyone else going the usual
15-25MPH.
-N


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Re: Toll Booths (Was: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th)

[Jerry Feldman]

On Thursday 27 October 2005 9:26 am, Bill Freeman wrote:

>   The "point" is for them to be able to reduce their staffing (fire
> token sellers/toll collectors).  What?  You thought that this stuff was
> for the customer's convenience?  Innocence of youth, I guess.
Certainly not. It all comes down to more revenue, lower cost.

-- 
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Toll Booths (Was: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th)

[Bill Freeman]

Travis Roy writes:
...
 > Then yo go through NY and they have GATES on the EZ-Pass lanes that you 
 > have to actually stop and wait for the gate to raise up... what's the point!

The "point" is for them to be able to reduce their staffing (fire
token sellers/toll collectors).  What?  You thought that this stuff was
for the customer's convenience?  Innocence of youth, I guess.

Bill
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Paul Lussier]

"Thomas M. Albright" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> Are rental car companies responsible for the speeding violations
>> of those renting?
>
> No; note the difference between renting and borrowing. You are paying to 
> use the car. Your name is in the records as the current user of the car. 
> If the car is used to break the law, you are responsible.
>
>> Are employers responsible for speeding violations of employees when
>> driving company owned vehicles?
>
> See the above answer. It's all in the paperwork.

So, if I "rent" the car to my friend for $5, and have him sign some
paperwork, I'm in the clear?

>> Are parents responsible for speeding violations of their children when
>> the kids borrow the car from Mom or Dad?
>
> They should be. Parents should always be held accountable for the
> actions of their minor children. I can say that: I am a parent. If I
> don't teach my kid properly, so he doesn't know right from wrong, that
> should be put on me as much, if not more, than him.

Actually, yes, if they're a minor. And though not a law, I'll
certainly be held responsible by my insurance company!  It's my
insurance they're on, and it's my insurance premiums that'll go up!

-- 

Seeya,
Paul
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Re: Toll Booths (Was: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th)

[Jerry Feldman]

On Thursday 27 October 2005 8:16 am, Travis Roy wrote:

> Has anyone been to Atlanta? The EZ-Pass style toll system is what it
> should be like anywhere they have an auto-payment type system. You can
> go 80mph through the toll plaza. They have two larger lanes on the left
> side of the highway and you can zip through like it wasn't even there.
> Your little transponder beeps and all is well.
I am unaware of any tools in Atlanta, but some of the toll systems south of 
NY are now higher speed. 
The Mass Pike at Allston has 2 open-style lanes in either direction but they 
still enforce the 15 MPH speeds as NY does with their 5MPH.

-- 
Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Paul Lussier]

Brian Chabot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Plus all over they have cameras.  Pointed at your license plate.  You 
> know it wouldn't be too hard to use OCR and a stopwatch to catch you 
> speeding through tolls.

Travis Roy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> That is probably the most important thing to me with RFID, that it
> only transmits a unique ID that is later cross referenced by somebody
> else that has the information. I don't want my name and other info
> sent over RF waves, but if 2451346256345243245 does and then a cop or
> whoever can look up "2451346256345243245" and that brings up my info,
> that's alright with me.

And what if it *isn't* you driving the car.  The big difference
between them issuing you a ticket at the toll booth and
cross-referencing the information is the fact that may not in fact be
you driving, and you're getting mailed a ticket for something you may
not have done, nor even be aware of.

If they issue the ticket at the booth, they can at least issue it to
the actual person driving.  But if they just record the license plate
number or RFID number and "mail it in", as they often do with
traffic-light cams, there is no way they can know you weren't driving
the car.  Suddenly you now have to defend yourself against a crime you
didn't commit.  The best case scenario is that they drop the charges
when you contest, however, you've still been cost a day of your life
defending yourself.  The worst case scenario is that you have to prove
your innocence and somehow lose.  So, now you're out time, money, at
least one vacation day from work, in addition to increased insurance
premiums.

Tell me again how this use of technology is a good idea?

> If you're worried about it, you can take other roads, use coins for
> this trip, or (novel concept) not break the law.

Right, and how about the novel concept of the *state* not breaking the
law!  Are you aware that *every* speed limit sign in the Commonwealth
of Massachusetts, with the exception of those within and marked by
School Zone signs, must, by state law, be approved and issued by the
State Highway Dept. ?  Are you also aware that *daily* hundreds of
speeding tickets are issued to drivers based on speed limit signs
"just put up" by local towns without having followed the proper State
laws?  So, by law, if there is a speed limit posted in an area, and
that speed limit was not approved by the State Highway Department,
*legally* you can not be issued a speeding ticket for speeding in that
area, because it an unlawfully posted speed limit.

So, if the State can't even follow the simple laws of posting properly
approved speed limit signs, *why* should I ever think they're going to
do so when it comes to the abuse of a technology that has the ability
to easily increase their revenue with little or no expenditure on
their part?

-- 

Seeya,
Paul
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Toll Booths (Was: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th)

[Travis Roy]

(However, they will ticket 
you if you go too fast through the toll booth).


That's the one thing I don't like about the Fastpass/EZ-Pass system up 
here.


Has anyone been to Atlanta? The EZ-Pass style toll system is what it 
should be like anywhere they have an auto-payment type system. You can 
go 80mph through the toll plaza. They have two larger lanes on the left 
side of the highway and you can zip through like it wasn't even there. 
Your little transponder beeps and all is well.


EZ-Pass seems silly when you still have to wait in like 5-6 cars deep. 
Sure it moves faster, but when the cash (now also ez-pass) lanes only 
have on person, and the coin lanes have 2-3, it seems silly.


Then yo go through NY and they have GATES on the EZ-Pass lanes that you 
have to actually stop and wait for the gate to raise up... what's the point!

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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Jerry Feldman]

On Wednesday 26 October 2005 6:14 pm, Brian wrote:
> > just as you can challenge a radar device on
> > its calibration.
>
> Have you ever tried that?  I have.  It doesn't work very well.  The radar
> companies basically train the cops on how to defend themselves and their
> radar units in court.
This is true. You would probably spend more on an attorney than the 
resulting ticket and added insurance costs. 

The chances of getting a mis-calibrated radar today is probably very rare. 

I pointed this out because if the states start to use times through the toll 
booths to issue tickets, they must also insure that the systems are 
properly time-synced because there is always the guy who will hire an 
attorney to challenge it. 

While it is not important enough for me to research properly, I believe that 
at least in Ma. when Fast Lane was initiated, the legislature passed a law 
that would prevent it from being used this way. (However, they will ticket 
you if you go too fast through the toll booth).
-- 
Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Bill McGonigle]

On Oct 26, 2005, at 19:59, Thomas M. Albright wrote:


No. I don't lend things to people unless I know they know how to use
them and I know what it'll be used for. tada! My ass is covered. No one
but me uses my gun unless I'm right there to supervise. No one but me
uses my car at all.

Why is that such a difficult concept?


I think I see the problem here - we're all maximizing different 
incompatible values.


You're maximizing for liability protection.  My neighbors and I lend 
each others powertools all the time (and we don't know one of us won't 
snap and go all homicidal with the brush cutter) but we're maximizing 
for other values (cost, quality, neighborliness, etc.)


What each of us individually maximizes for is a values decision - we 
can spend all day trying to debate the relative merits and whether 
those who don't follow our beliefs should be indicted for the potential 
outcomes of said belief systems, but whether one should be 'neighborly' 
or not isn't something you can solve for without other criteria and 
trade-offs. (a game-theory simulation of cooperation models with a 
liability factor would be an intriguing exercise...)


I can only say that Free Software wouldn't be possible if liability 
protection were each participants' top priority (there, Bruce, we're 
back on topic. ;) ).


-Bill
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Randy Edwards]

   Since I started this, I've been biting my tongue to avoid adding to this 
thread.  But my willpower just caved.  :-)

 >> just as you can challenge a radar device on its calibration.
 > Have you ever tried that?  I have.  It doesn't work very well.

   While not radars, this article  
shows that some judges do understand the fact that technology which is used 
to prosecute people has to be fully examined -- even the source code.

 Regards,
 .
 Randy

-- 
Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they 
make it easier to do don't need to be done.
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Bruce Dawson]

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For an Off Topic discussion, this is generating a lot of traffic.

Could it be moved elsewhere?

- --Bruce
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFDYBnV/TBScWXa5IgRAmtcAKCIPCYaTT3juHPZY+U8BIKNXiY84gCgvW5j
Vol0N3ZNWkSnIv1ny27vcpU=
=oqlQ
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Thomas M. Albright]

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, bryan wrote:

> Under this logic, if someone steals my car, then, since there's no 
> "paperwork" 
> I'm responsible for what the thief does with it.

A police report is paperwork.

> and if I'm not, then why am I responsible when someone borrows it ?  If I 
> create a written document that they sign before they borrow it, am I then not 
> responsible because of that "paperwork"? who decides what "paperwork" is 
> acceptable and what is not?  what if they borrow the car without my knowledge 
> or permission ?

That's theft. File a police report.

> If I borrow an axe from you, and there's no "paperwork" saying such,
> and then use it to hack my wife to death are you then responsible ?
> Can I borrow an axe?
> 

No. I don't lend things to people unless I know they know how to use
them and I know what it'll be used for. tada! My ass is covered. No one
but me uses my gun unless I'm right there to supervise. No one but me
uses my car at all.

Why is that such a difficult concept?

Oh, and please don't top-post.

-- 
TARogue (Linux user number 234357)
 Drama is life with the dull bits cut out. -Alfred Hitchcock (1899-1980)
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[bryan]

Under this logic, if someone steals my car, then, since there's no "paperwork" 
I'm responsible for what the thief does with it.
and if I'm not, then why am I responsible when someone borrows it ?  If I 
create a written document that they sign before they borrow it, am I then not 
responsible because of that "paperwork"? who decides what "paperwork" is 
acceptable and what is not?  what if they borrow the car without my knowledge 
or permission ?
If I borrow an axe from you, and there's no "paperwork" saying such,  and then 
use it to hack my wife to death are you then responsible ?
Can I borrow an axe?

B...



On Wednesday 26 October 2005 19:25, Thomas M. Albright wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Andrew W. Gaunt wrote:
> > That view is simplistic and does not address the more complicated
> > realities, however.
>
> KISS
>
> > Are rental car companies responsible for the speeding violations
> > of those renting?
>
> No; note the difference between renting and borrowing. You are paying to
> use the car. Your name is in the records as the current user of the car.
> If the car is used to break the law, you are responsible.
>
> > Are employers responsible for speeding violations of employees when
> > driving company owned vehicles?
>
> See the above answer. It's all in the paperwork.
>
> > Are parents responsible for speeding violations of their children when
> > the kids borrow the car from Mom or Dad?
>
> They should be. Parents should always be held accountable for the
> actions of their minor children. I can say that: I am a parent. If I
> don't teach my kid properly, so he doesn't know right from wrong, that
> should be put on me as much, if not more, than him.
>
> > Are you responsible for the speeding violations or any other stupid or
> > accidental thing your freind might get involved with when borrowing
> > your car?
>
> Yes. That's why I don't let just anybody borrow my car.
>
> > It's not the car, it's the driver; ergo my question.
>
> It's your car, it's your problem; ergo my answer.
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Thomas M. Albright]

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Bill McGonigle wrote:

> On Oct 26, 2005, at 19:12, Thomas M. Albright wrote:
> 
> > Well ... yeah. In fact cars kill many more people each year than guns.
> 
> So if I leant a pistol to a friend (who was duly licensed) to go shoot 
> at the range and he went and shot up a [insert harmless segment of 
> society] you'd want me on trial for murder 1?
> 
No, simple negligent homicide. If you can prove to a jury that you were 
sure he was a safe gun user then you'll walk. If you let your friend 
borrow your gun just because he's got a license, you're being negligent.

> Glad you're not a judge.
> 
"Neither a borrower nor a lender be."

-- 
TARogue (Linux user number 234357)
 If there really is a God who created the entire universe with all of
 its glories, and he decides to deliver a message to humanity, he will
 NOT use as his messenger a person on cable TV with a bad hairstyle or in
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Thomas M. Albright]

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Andrew W. Gaunt wrote:

> That view is simplistic and does not address the more complicated
> realities, however.
> 
KISS

> Are rental car companies responsible for the speeding violations
> of those renting?

No; note the difference between renting and borrowing. You are paying to 
use the car. Your name is in the records as the current user of the car. 
If the car is used to break the law, you are responsible.

> Are employers responsible for speeding violations of employees when
> driving company owned vehicles?

See the above answer. It's all in the paperwork.

> Are parents responsible for speeding violations of their children when
> the kids borrow the car from Mom or Dad?

They should be. Parents should always be held accountable for the
actions of their minor children. I can say that: I am a parent. If I
don't teach my kid properly, so he doesn't know right from wrong, that
should be put on me as much, if not more, than him.

> Are you responsible for the speeding violations or any other stupid or
> accidental thing your freind might get involved with when borrowing
> your car?
>
Yes. That's why I don't let just anybody borrow my car.
 
> It's not the car, it's the driver; ergo my question.
> 
It's your car, it's your problem; ergo my answer.

-- 
TARogue (Linux user number 234357)
 You can always tell the people that are forging the new frontier.
 They're the ones with arrows sticking out of their backs.
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Bill McGonigle]

On Oct 26, 2005, at 19:12, Thomas M. Albright wrote:


Well ... yeah. In fact cars kill many more people each year than guns.


So if I leant a pistol to a friend (who was duly licensed) to go shoot 
at the range and he went and shot up a [insert harmless segment of 
society] you'd want me on trial for murder 1?


Glad you're not a judge.

-Bill

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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Thomas M. Albright]

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Bill McGonigle wrote:

> On Oct 26, 2005, at 16:13, Thomas M. Albright wrote:
> 
> > Your car should be your responsibility. If your friend can't drive
> > resposibly, perhaps he shouldn't be driving your car.
> 
> Same standard for my gun?
> 
Well ... yeah. In fact cars kill many more people each year than guns.

-- 
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 my hopeless romantic to death ... it's just easier that way.
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Andrew W. Gaunt]

That view is simplistic and does not address the more complicated
realities, however.

Are rental car companies responsible for the speeding violations
of those renting? Are employers responsible for speeding violations
of employees when driving company owned vehicles? Are parents responsible 
for speeding violations of their children when the kids borrow the car

from Mom or Dad? Are you responsible for the speeding violations
or any other stupid  or accidental thing your freind might get involved
with when borrowing your car?

It's not the car, it's the driver; ergo my question.


__
 | 0|___||.  Andrew Gaunt *nix Sys. Admin., etc.
_| _| : : }  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www-cde.inse.lucent.com/~quantum
 -(O)-==-o\  [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.gaunt.org

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Thomas M. Albright wrote:


On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Andrew W. Gaunt wrote:


BTW - If a ticket were to be issued based on EZ pass data
how would it proved absolutely that the person who owns the EZ pass
was the person driving whatever vehicle was going over the speed
limit.Perhaps there are more than one dirver, perhaps the car or pass
is being loaned out to a friend.


Your car should be your responsibility. If your friend can't drive
resposibly, perhaps he shouldn't be driving your car.

--
TARogue (Linux user number 234357)
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we
are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and
servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Bill McGonigle]

On Oct 26, 2005, at 10:59, Travis Roy wrote:

As others have pointed out, if you have a cell phone you can already 
be tracked. All this tracking and keeping info on people has long been 
around before RFID.


The key difference is "by the government" and "without a court order".

-
Bill McGonigle, Owner   Work: 603.448.4440
BFC Computing, LLC  Home: 603.448.1668
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Mobile: 603.252.2606
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Bill McGonigle]

On Oct 26, 2005, at 16:13, Thomas M. Albright wrote:


Your car should be your responsibility. If your friend can't drive
resposibly, perhaps he shouldn't be driving your car.


Same standard for my gun?

-Bill

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RE: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Brian]

 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Abreau
> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 2:18 PM
> To: gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> Subject: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID 
> chips Nov. 5th
> 
> Brian wrote:
> >  Plausible, yes.  But with ntp, GPS clock-syncing, etc, this is 
> > getting a little bit tinfoilhat-ish.
> 
> I suppose it would make more sense to say nothing, not worry 
> about it, and just assume that whoever implements it will get 
> all the details  right.

No, but it *would* make more sense to be concerned about a problem/threat
that actually exists, vs. a made-up exploited use of RFID on top of a
possible, but unlikely, problem.  How many levels of paranoia deep do you
want to take this thread?  

> "Tinfoilhat-ish" is an odd way to describe the question, 
> though. That term suggests a clock that's been deliberately 
> pushed back,

No, it suggests an unwarranted paranoia.

> I've had clock syncing problems in a bunch of desktops I 
> support, and every one of them had been configured to use the 
> Windows network time sync. In the end I discovered that they 
> were syncing against several different time servers, and most 
> of them were doing it weekly. I can only assume this was the 
> default that Microsoft defined for the initial install.

Well then, I hope you don't some day get a job building a speed-monitoring
setup for the EZ Pass folks.  If we want to base our concern for possible
problems on simple preventable human error, maybe you should worry that
they'll mistype the algorithm also, and give EVERYONE a speeding ticket.

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RE: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Brian]

 

> just as you can challenge a radar device on 
> its calibration. 

Have you ever tried that?  I have.  It doesn't work very well.  The radar
companies basically train the cops on how to defend themselves and their
radar units in court.

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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Thomas M. Albright]

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Andrew W. Gaunt wrote:

> BTW - If a ticket were to be issued based on EZ pass data
> how would it proved absolutely that the person who owns the EZ pass
> was the person driving whatever vehicle was going over the speed
> limit.Perhaps there are more than one dirver, perhaps the car or pass
> is being loaned out to a friend.
> 
Your car should be your responsibility. If your friend can't drive 
resposibly, perhaps he shouldn't be driving your car.

-- 
TARogue (Linux user number 234357)
 To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we
 are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and
 servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Bill Sconce]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:15:14 -0400
Bill Sconce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> ...A similar argument raged recently over binding RFID tags
> into passports, for similar reasons.



By coincidence, this today from the Washington Post.  Two things
jump out: no encryption on the passport;  98.5% of comments opposed
the idea.

U.S. Passports to Receive Electronic Identification Chips

By Jonathan Krim
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, October 26, 2005; Page A08

The State Department yesterday issued final rules for implanting
electronic identification chips into all U.S. passports, despite
continuing controversy over the security of the system and its impact on
personal privacy.

The regulations mean that as of October 2006, all new and renewed U.S.
passports will contain radio frequency identification chips that will
include a digital photo and all other information currently printed in
passports.  

Over time, as older passports expire, everyone who holds a passport will
get an electronic version.

Government employee and diplomatic passports will receive the chips in a
pilot program beginning early next year.

In issuing the new rules, the department is matching a requirement it is
imposing on visitors from several other countries. Foreigners from
countries who do not need visas to enter the United States also must
have the chips by next October. Such countries will be responsible for
providing their citizens with passports that comply with U.S. entry
requirements.

A spokeswoman said the department is convinced the electronic passports
will provide enhanced security.

But in a federal filing, the department said that 98.5 percent of the
2,335 comments it received since it issued proposed rules last spri ng
opposed the program.

Technology experts have said that the data on the chips, which will be
read at a short distance by electronic devices in a passport-control
booth, could be electronically intercepted and potentially misused.

Some privacy groups also fear that the chips could be a prelude to
tracking individuals' movements.

Other security experts said the system is not robust enough, noting that
digital photographs can have high error rates compared with actual
faces. These experts said the system should instead use a biometric
identifier such as fingerprints.

The new rules seek to address some of the concerns.

According to the filing, the passports will be equipped with
"anti-skimming" technology to reduce the chance of the signal being
intercepted between the passport and the electronic reader.

The chip itself will be embedded in the back cover of a newly designed
passport, and the anti-skimming film will be in both the front and back
covers, reducing the chance of interception when someone is standing in
a passport line.

According to the filing, the passport needs to be within inches of the
reader in order to work.

The department rejected calls to encrypt, or scramble, the data on the
passport. Instead, the transmission stream when the data is passing from
the passport to the reader will be encrypted.

The department also rejected some calls for using a smart-card-type chip
that must come into contact with the reader, as opposed to a radio
frequency identification chip that can be read at a distance. The
department said smart-card chips do not lend themselves to being put
into a book-like document such as a passport.

The chips will have enough memory so additional biometric information
could be added in the future.

But the department said it has no plans to include personal information
such as Social Security numbers on the chips.

Ari Schwartz, associate director of the Center for Democracy and
Technology, a digital-policy group, said he had not yet studied the
department filing.

But he said it was a "risky strategy" without first testing the system
on a large scale.
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Jerry Feldman]

On Wednesday 26 October 2005 2:17 pm, John Abreau wrote:
> Brian wrote:
> >  Plausible, yes.  But with ntp, GPS clock-syncing, etc, this is getting
> > a little bit tinfoilhat-ish.
>
> I suppose it would make more sense to say nothing, not worry about it,
> and just assume that whoever implements it will get all the details 
> right.
I believe that if they sent you a speeding ticket because your times between 
toll booths were the basis you could beat it because it is a basis of 
discrimination because the cash users would not be caught.  But, even it 
they did catch both electronic toll payers and cash toll payers, then an 
easy court challenge would be to prove that the two stations were properly 
synced just as you can challenge a radar device on its calibration. 
-- 
Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[John Abreau]

Brian wrote:

 Plausible, yes.  But with ntp, GPS clock-syncing, etc, this is getting a
little bit tinfoilhat-ish.


I suppose it would make more sense to say nothing, not worry about it, 
and just assume that whoever implements it will get all the details  right.


"Tinfoilhat-ish" is an odd way to describe the question, though. That 
term suggests a clock that's been deliberately pushed back, not the 
routine clock drift that occurs normally and makes clock-syncing tools 
necessary in the first place.


I've had clock syncing problems in a bunch of desktops I support, and 
every one of them had been configured to use the Windows network time 
sync. In the end I discovered that they were syncing against several 
different time servers, and most of them were doing it weekly. I can 
only assume this was the default that Microsoft defined for the initial 
install.


--
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ICQ 28611923 / AIM abreauj / JABBER [EMAIL PROTECTED] / YAHOO abreauj
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Bill Sconce]

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005 12:57:43 -0400
Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Wednesday 26 October 2005 12:34 pm, Travis Roy wrote:
> > Your EZ-Pass transponder is linked to your car in the DB. You must give
> > them a car make/model and plate number. If they don't match (they have a
> > camera that looks at the plates, not sure if it tries to match them
> > however), then you can get in trouble. Said so in the instructions that
> > came with my EZ-Pass. You are only suppose to have one EZ-Pass per car.

> Don't know specifically about NH, but you can have multiple cars assigned to 
> a single transponder. 


>From the "E-ZPass Customer Agreement - Private Account Terms and Conditions":

"You do not need to order a separate tag for each vehicle
you own.  You may transfer your E-ZPass tag to any two-axle
vehicle of the same class.  ...  Adhesive fasteners enable
you to install the tag in seconds and remove it easily
from your windshield if you want to transfer it to another
two-axle vehicle."

-Bill


P.S.  I find it mildly interesting that the "Terms and Conditions"
document has no publication date, nor any byline showing who published
it.  I swear I got it at the E-ZPass trailer.  Honest.  It IS printed
with "official purple"...  :)


P.P.S.  The "User Guide Booklet" (also undated, but with a NH DOT logo)
has this:

"If you don't want your tag to be read at a particular toll
plaza, be sure to enclose the tag in the silver 'read prevention'
bag that was provided in your tag kit, remembering to fold the
bag, prior to entering the toll plaza area, so the tag will
not be read."
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RE: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Brian]

 Plausible, yes.  But with ntp, GPS clock-syncing, etc, this is getting a
little bit tinfoilhat-ish.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Abreau
> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 1:01 PM
> To: gnhlug-discuss@mail.gnhlug.org
> Subject: Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID 
> chips Nov. 5th
> 
> The thing that's always concerned me is, what happens if the 
> clocks on the EZ pass scanners are out of sync? If the second 
> scanner's clock is a few minutes behind the first one, then 
> the system does the math and computes a spped for your car 
> that's faster than what you're actually doing.
> 
>

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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[John Abreau]

Andrew W. Gaunt wrote:


BTW - If a ticket were to be issued based on EZ pass data
how would it proved absolutely that the person who owns the EZ pass
was the person driving whatever vehicle was going over the speed
limit.Perhaps there are more than one dirver, perhaps the car or pass
is being loaned out to a friend.


The thing that's always concerned me is, what happens if the clocks on 
the EZ pass scanners are out of sync? If the second scanner's clock is a 
few minutes behind the first one, then the system does the math and 
computes a spped for your car that's faster than what you're actually 
doing.


On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Paul Lussier wrote:

>  Distance: 72 miles
>   Time: 45 minutes
>   Speed:96 MPH

Time: 45 minutes
 Speed: 96 MPH

Actual Time: 50 minutes (5 minute clock drift)
 Speed: 86 MPH (10 MPH difference)

Time: 55 minutes (10 minute clock drift)
 Speed: 78 MPH (18 MPH difference)

Put it the other way; assuming the speed limit on the Mass Pike is 65 
MPH, let's look at 72 miles at 65 MPH.


Distance: 72 miles
Actual Time: 66 minutes
Speed: 65 MPH

5-minute clock drift: 61 minutes
Computed speed: 70 MPH

10-minute clock drift: 56 minutes
Computed speed: 77 MPH

Now you're legal, but the scanners claim you're speeding, and you're 
paying a ticket and increased insurance costs for something you didn't do.


--
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Jerry Feldman]

On Wednesday 26 October 2005 12:34 pm, Travis Roy wrote:
> Your EZ-Pass transponder is linked to your car in the DB. You must give
> them a car make/model and plate number. If they don't match (they have a
> camera that looks at the plates, not sure if it tries to match them
> however), then you can get in trouble. Said so in the instructions that
> came with my EZ-Pass. You are only suppose to have one EZ-Pass per car.
Don't know specifically about NH, but you can have multiple cars assigned to 
a single transponder. Theoretically, when you rent a car, you can use the 
transponder, but they recommend that you register the plates for the time 
you have the car. I once got a car as a loaner while mine was being 
serviced. I had transposed the license plate digits when I registered the 
car. Later on they charged Nissan $50. I called Fast Lane and they cleared 
it up. 
-- 
Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Jerry Feldman]

On Wednesday 26 October 2005 12:19 pm, Andrew W. Gaunt wrote:
> Perhaps having more than one EZ pass thingy could be used to stump
> the system. Use one for getting onto the toll road, the other for
> gettting off (using static bags or whatever to keep the one active and
> the other inactive).
Won't work. They must match you getting on and getting off. If you get on 
and don't get off you get charged the full toll for the entire distance. 

One of my former bosses used to live in DC and he tried a similar thing on 
the Metro and it did work.
-- 
Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Jerry Feldman]

On Wednesday 26 October 2005 11:04 am, Brian Chabot wrote:

> Uhh... If you're on the Mass Pike, they already have the ability to do
> that.  You know that paper toll ticket? It's got a time stamp.
Actually Mass. Law prevents this (but any law can be changed),

> Plus all over they have cameras.  Pointed at your license plate.  You
> know it wouldn't be too hard to use OCR and a stopwatch to catch you
> speeding through tolls.
>
> If you're worried about it, you can take other roads, use coins for this
> trip, or (novel concept) not break the law.
Many states have cameras, especially at stop lights. 

Brian, try going the speed limit on I93, I91, 495, Route 3. You'll be the 
slowest car for miles :-)
-- 
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Boston Linux and Unix user group
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Travis Roy]

Perhaps having more than one EZ pass thingy could be used to stump
the system. Use one for getting onto the toll road, the other for gettting
off (using static bags or whatever to keep the one active and the other
inactive). Presumably the system would not be smart enough to link the
the two EZ pass thingys being used this way.  I don't have one of
them, so I don't know what the potential drawabacks are.

BTW - If a ticket were to be issued based on EZ pass data
how would it proved absolutely that the person who owns the EZ pass
was the person driving whatever vehicle was going over the speed
limit.Perhaps there are more than one dirver, perhaps the car or pass
is being loaned out to a friend.


Your EZ-Pass transponder is linked to your car in the DB. You must give 
them a car make/model and plate number. If they don't match (they have a 
camera that looks at the plates, not sure if it tries to match them 
however), then you can get in trouble. Said so in the instructions that 
came with my EZ-Pass. You are only suppose to have one EZ-Pass per car.



Doesn't  there need to be some kind of indisputable evidence that
the person being given a speeding ticket is the person who is
in control of the speeding vehicle at the time? I suppose cameras
could be used in conjunction with EZ pass thingys to verify the
driver along every stretch of road (because drivers can alternate)
but one could simply simply wear a latex penguin (linux theme)
mask while driving to remain unrecognizable -- or is there a law
against that too.


Blocking the view of the driver has been used as a defense against those 
red-light cameras. Not sure of the outcome of any of that however.




On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Paul Lussier wrote:

 


What good is the anti-static bag if you have to remove it to go
through the toll booths? 
 Wed Oct 26 09:02:48 EDT 2005 Brian Chabot Mass. Pike/Rt. 128

 Wed Oct 26 09:47:10 EDT 2005 Brian Chabot Mass. Pike/Rt. 91
 
 Distance: 72 miles
 Time: 45 minutes
 Speed:96 MPH

Mail that speeding ticket!
  



Uhh... If you're on the Mass Pike, they already have the ability to do 
that.  You know that paper toll ticket? It's got a time stamp.


There are highways in Canada where they actually do this and issue the 
speeding ticket right at the exit toll.  No RFID needed.


Plus all over they have cameras.  Pointed at your license plate.  You 
know it wouldn't be too hard to use OCR and a stopwatch to catch you 
speeding through tolls.


If you're worried about it, you can take other roads, use coins for 
this trip, or (novel concept) not break the law.


Brian
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Andrew W. Gaunt]

Perhaps having more than one EZ pass thingy could be used to stump
the system. Use one for getting onto the toll road, the other for gettting
off (using static bags or whatever to keep the one active and the other
inactive). Presumably the system would not be smart enough to link the
the two EZ pass thingys being used this way.  I don't have one of
them, so I don't know what the potential drawabacks are.

BTW - If a ticket were to be issued based on EZ pass data
how would it proved absolutely that the person who owns the EZ pass
was the person driving whatever vehicle was going over the speed
limit.Perhaps there are more than one dirver, perhaps the car or pass
is being loaned out to a friend.

Doesn't  there need to be some kind of indisputable evidence that
the person being given a speeding ticket is the person who is
in control of the speeding vehicle at the time? I suppose cameras
could be used in conjunction with EZ pass thingys to verify the
driver along every stretch of road (because drivers can alternate)
but one could simply simply wear a latex penguin (linux theme)
mask while driving to remain unrecognizable -- or is there a law
against that too.


Brian Chabot wrote:


On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Paul Lussier wrote:

 


What good is the anti-static bag if you have to remove it to go
through the toll booths?  


 Wed Oct 26 09:02:48 EDT 2005 Brian Chabot Mass. Pike/Rt. 128
 Wed Oct 26 09:47:10 EDT 2005 Brian Chabot Mass. Pike/Rt. 91
 
 Distance: 72 miles
 Time: 45 minutes
 Speed:96 MPH

Mail that speeding ticket!
   



Uhh... If you're on the Mass Pike, they already have the ability to do 
that.  You know that paper toll ticket? It's got a time stamp.


There are highways in Canada where they actually do this and issue the 
speeding ticket right at the exit toll.  No RFID needed.


Plus all over they have cameras.  Pointed at your license plate.  You 
know it wouldn't be too hard to use OCR and a stopwatch to catch you 
speeding through tolls.


If you're worried about it, you can take other roads, use coins for this 
trip, or (novel concept) not break the law.


Brian
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Travis Roy]

There are highways in Canada where they actually do this and issue the 
speeding ticket right at the exit toll.  No RFID needed.


That was one of the reason I opted for the EZ-Pass, there are already 
plenty of ways for them to track me via my car and license plate without 
RFID. The fact is that RFID just makes it easier, and isn't that what 
technology is really about.


You drive around all the time with an unique ID screwed into the back of 
the car.


That is probably the most important thing to me with RFID, that it only 
transmits a unique ID that is later cross referenced by somebody else 
that has the information. I don't want my name and other info sent over 
RF waves, but if 2451346256345243245 does and then a cop or whoever can 
look up "2451346256345243245" and that brings up my info, that's alright 
with me.


As others have pointed out, if you have a cell phone you can already be 
tracked. All this tracking and keeping info on people has long been 
around before RFID.

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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Brian Chabot]

On Wed, 26 Oct 2005, Paul Lussier wrote:

> What good is the anti-static bag if you have to remove it to go
> through the toll booths?  
> 
>   Wed Oct 26 09:02:48 EDT 2005 Brian Chabot Mass. Pike/Rt. 128
>   Wed Oct 26 09:47:10 EDT 2005 Brian Chabot Mass. Pike/Rt. 91
>   
>   Distance: 72 miles
>   Time: 45 minutes
>   Speed:96 MPH
> 
> Mail that speeding ticket!

Uhh... If you're on the Mass Pike, they already have the ability to do 
that.  You know that paper toll ticket? It's got a time stamp.

There are highways in Canada where they actually do this and issue the 
speeding ticket right at the exit toll.  No RFID needed.

Plus all over they have cameras.  Pointed at your license plate.  You 
know it wouldn't be too hard to use OCR and a stopwatch to catch you 
speeding through tolls.

If you're worried about it, you can take other roads, use coins for this 
trip, or (novel concept) not break the law.

Brian
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Jeff Kinz]

On Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 09:13:52AM -0400, Paul Lussier wrote:
> Brian Chabot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Over my mental protests, I do have an EZ-Pass.  It came with an
> > anti-static bag to put it in if you don't want to be tracked.  Hell, the
> > tint on my front windshield is enough to block the signal.  (I really
> > wish they'd go back to the tokens.  They were a better value and pretty
> > much anonymous.) 
> >
> > Now I *know* we all can find antistatic bags laying around.  If there
> > were a cheap RFID locator, we could just toss the damned things into
> > these bags and not worry about them.
> 
> 
> What good is the anti-static bag if you have to remove it to go
> through the toll booths?  

Even more frustrating is trying to find one big enough to get the car
into in the first place


> 
>   Wed Oct 26 09:02:48 EDT 2005 Brian Chabot Mass. Pike/Rt. 128
>   Wed Oct 26 09:47:10 EDT 2005 Brian Chabot Mass. Pike/Rt. 91
>   
>   Distance: 72 miles
>   Time: 45 minutes
>   Speed:96 MPH
> 
> Mail that speeding ticket!
> 
> -- 
> 
> Seeya,
> Paul
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-- 
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Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Paul Lussier]

Brian Chabot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Over my mental protests, I do have an EZ-Pass.  It came with an
> anti-static bag to put it in if you don't want to be tracked.  Hell, the
> tint on my front windshield is enough to block the signal.  (I really
> wish they'd go back to the tokens.  They were a better value and pretty
> much anonymous.) 
>
> Now I *know* we all can find antistatic bags laying around.  If there
> were a cheap RFID locator, we could just toss the damned things into
> these bags and not worry about them.


What good is the anti-static bag if you have to remove it to go
through the toll booths?  

  Wed Oct 26 09:02:48 EDT 2005 Brian Chabot Mass. Pike/Rt. 128
  Wed Oct 26 09:47:10 EDT 2005 Brian Chabot Mass. Pike/Rt. 91
  
  Distance: 72 miles
  Time: 45 minutes
  Speed:96 MPH

Mail that speeding ticket!

-- 

Seeya,
Paul
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Paul Lussier]

Travis Roy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>>   Do you have a cell phone?  Careful man, very trackable.  MORE
>> EASILY trackable then any RFID chip, btw.
>
> No kidding:
>
> http://www.mologogo.com/waypoints/public/caveman978
>
> (that's a friend of mine's commute) Neat concept actually.

Fascinating, he seems to have teleported to the other side of 495 :)
-- 

Seeya,
Paul
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Jerry Feldman]

I don't see where HP per se. should be singled out. Maybe we should boycott 
Wal*Mart since they have been pushing very hard for RFID technology. And 
have you seen the IBM commercials where a truck is stopped by the help desk 
on a remote road because the RFID equipped boxes told them they were going 
in the wrong direction. The driver's helper says, "maybe we should let the 
boxes drive".

There are certainly some very good concerns raised in this list about RFID 
(such as in passports and EZ Passes). Note that I have had Fast Lane for 
several years since I take the Mass Pike to work, 

Stopping technology (even as pervasive as RFID can be) is futile and reminds 
me of Medieval mind set where any kind of scientific thinking was 
suppressed. Why not outlaw home computers and cable tv while we are at it.

-- 
Jerry Feldman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Boston Linux and Unix user group
http://www.blu.org PGP key id:C5061EA9
PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Jeffrey Creem]

By the way, combine device specific serial numbers in the printers tag 
(which they probably already do) and combine it with the fact that several 
vendors encode device specific data in all prints from the device and you 
really start to have something that can be abused...

Granted it is unclear how the rfid helps that much more than barcodes...but 
each of these little losses of privacy really do begin to add up.
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Thomas M. Albright]

How about just boycotting Wal*Mart altogether? I haven't been to a 
Wal*Mart in (I think) 8 years.

HP is not the problem.

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005, Randy Edwards wrote:

>On Nov. 5th there's going to be a protest at the Bedford Wal-Mart, 3:00 PM 
> to 4:30 PM, against HP's printers being sold with RFID chips.  For more 
> information: .
> 
>  Regards,
>  .
>  Randy
> 
> 

-- 
TARogue (Linux user number 234357)
 "The Irish are not in a conspiracy to cheat the world by false
 representations of the merits of their countrymen. No, Sir; the Irish
 are a fair people; -- they never speak well of one another."
 -- Samuel Johnson.
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RE: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Brian]

This statement could be taken a little further.  At no point in this thread
have you actually contributed anything useful.  You lobbed in a comment
along the lines of "just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean they're out
to get you".

Your initial comment essentially implied that you took issue with Travis'
reasoning.  However you really offered no data or other explanations as to
why you felt this way. 

> -Original Message-
> 
> Let me make this clear:  at no point in this thread have I 
> expressed my opinion of anything related to RFID.
> 
> 

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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Jeff Kinz]

<<< No Message Collected >>>
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Thomas Charron]

On 10/25/05, Travis Roy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What about the probably two dozen other cameras that are in the store?

  Telling yea man, we gotta protest.

  FULL FACIAL REMOVAL for the MASSES!  ;-)

  Thomas

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Frank DiPrete]

the eff has a few things to say about this:

http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/RFID/

Taking it a step further - imagine what happens when these things get
smaller. much smaller.

Like any tool, I think the technology itself is benign. It's how it gets
used is the problem. e.g., being able to walk through a checkout scanner
and have the contents of the cart scanned all at once is a convenience.
Having your habits and movements tracked by your jacket - not so much.

I wonder what allowed technology use is through the so called patriot
act.

 

On Tue, 2005-10-25 at 13:14 -0400, Jeff Kinz wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 04:32:47PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> > > Please, explain to me how this is a threat.
> > 
> > No, I will not for the following reasons:
> > 
> > 1:  not relevant to this list.
> > 
> > 2:  I am certain that conversing with somebody such as yourself
> > who has already made the value judgement to obtain an
> > EZ Pass will yield absolutely no results.
> > 
> > 3:  I'm fairly confident that the web sites/FAQs offer explanations.
> > 
> > 4:  I'll bet that you could find a better place to post your 
> > opinions/queries.
> > 
> > 
> > I only responded to your email because of the gigantic falacy in your
> > line of reasoning, which was basically:
> >  
> > I made a value judgement about ;
> > I don't understand why everybody else doesn't think 
> > the way that I do.
> 
> 
> Kevin, I don't think you're being fair.  I'm not arguing against your
> position, I'm arguing against your non-response.
> 
> Travis may have made a judgment or he may have simply accepted a default
> arrangement that adds value and convenience to his life or that has been
> mandated by his employer(EZ_pass,and entry card)
> 
> Since most of the US population is making the same decision as Travis
> you should take advantage of the opportunity to provide him with more
> information and an alternate viewpoint.
> 
> He already stated that he looked at the web site you pointed to and it
> did not seem to provide a description of the dangers of rfid technology.
> 
> I just looked at it as well and I have to agree.  There is no obvious
> statement pointing out what the actual dangers of rfid tech are.  Just a
> continuous message/statement about "dangers to privacy".  
> 
> I find that message is no more credible than any random spin doctoring.
> 
> Can't you or the website provide an explicit detailed illustration or
> scenario which clarifies exactly what the danger (or one of the dangers)
> is?   A simple "what if" example is all that is needed.
> 
> > 1:  not relevant to this list.
> Then you should not have mentioned it here in the first place. ;-)
> 
> 

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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Travis Roy]

  News flash.  They could do the exact same thing with bar code if they 
put em on the side, and mounted a bar code reader sideways.


They don't even need that. they could detect when an item is picked up 
many ways, IR, a switch, weight sensors, motion sensors.


What about the probably two dozen other cameras that are in the store?

  Do you have a cell phone?  Careful man, very trackable.  MORE EASILY 
trackable then any RFID chip, btw.


No kidding:

http://www.mologogo.com/waypoints/public/caveman978

(that's a friend of mine's commute) Neat concept actually.
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Travis Roy]

Just to set things straight about this whole debate. I'm really not a 
fan of unique identifying RFID chips that can be read remotely.


I made a decision to go with EZ-Pass due to the discount and 
convenience. I use a toll perhaps.. twice a month.


The RFID badges I have in my wallet are from work, and I have to have those.

Also, EZ-Pass stuff is encrypted (but it can be cracked, I know).

That said, I think the protest against walmart for something that is 
only an inventory control device is silly when there's items that are 
far more intrusive to privacy.


Thomas Charron wrote:

  Yea, but..

  Don't buy them.

  The rest of us probrably will, and we'll be happy..

  Don't go clogging up my damned express lane becouse you don't like a 
chip that can be read remotely.


  Specifically, most of us just really don't care all that much.  We 
just want to grab our beer, soda, and diapers, in whatever order of 
imporance one considers them, and go home.


  If your so afraid of RFID, then..  Don't shop at wallmart.

  Thomas

On 10/25/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


Travis Roy writes:

 > Considering I already carry three RFID cards in my wallet (one for
 > each datacenter I go to) and then one in each car (EZ Pass) and I had
 > one when I had an Mobil Speedpass I really don't see the fear.

Just because *you* don't see the fear doesn't mean that there exists
fear and that this fear might be justified.

You've made a value judgement here; other people might come to
different conclusions.

--kevin
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Thomas Charron]

On 10/25/05, Randy Edwards <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 > Is RFID for inventory really that big of a deal?   Yes.  The problem is that there are no restrictions in how the chips willbe used.   For example, Gillette uses RFID in its razor packages.  Gillette, in
conjunction with retailers, has come up with store shelves which snap a photoof any potential customer whenever anyone picks up a package of razors offthe shelf.
  News flash.  They could do the exact same thing with bar
code if they put em on the side, and mounted a bar code reader sideways.

  Hell, they could snap the picture, then use facial recognition all around the store..

  Hrm, that's a good idea.

  I'll be staging a protest right next to them, but instead, the
real evil is.  Faces.  All people should remove their faces
IMMEDIATLY, as they can be used for tracking purposes.  They
simply identify oneself entirely to easy..

  And don't get me started on walmart actually catering to those
bastards who have the gaul to be born with fingerprints.  DAMNED
them..  ;-)

   That's simple RFID inventory technology -- but it's not the type wenormally think of and who knows how those photos and data are being used.
The public is woefully ignorant of RFID and its potential uses and misuses.
  So, you don't want anything to b able to wirelessly identify you.

  Do you have a cell phone?  Careful man, very trackable.  MORE EASILY trackable then any RFID chip, btw.

  Thomas

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Thomas Charron]

  Yea, but..

  Don't buy them.

  The rest of us probrably will, and we'll be happy..

  Don't go clogging up my damned express lane becouse you don't like a chip that can be read remotely.

  Specifically, most of us just really don't care all that
much.  We just want to grab our beer, soda, and diapers, in
whatever order of imporance one considers them, and go home.

  If your so afraid of RFID, then..  Don't shop at wallmart.

  ThomasOn 10/25/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:Travis Roy writes:> Considering I already carry three RFID cards in my wallet (one for
> each datacenter I go to) and then one in each car (EZ Pass) and I had> one when I had an Mobil Speedpass I really don't see the fear.Just because *you* don't see the fear doesn't mean that there exists
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[kevin_d_clark]

Jeff Kinz writes:

> Kevin, I don't think you're being fair.  I'm not arguing against your
> position, I'm arguing against your non-response.

I don't have to be fair.

> Travis may have made a judgment or he may have simply accepted a default
> arrangement that adds value and convenience to his life or that has been
> mandated by his employer(EZ_pass,and entry card)
>
> Since most of the US population is making the same decision as Travis
> you should take advantage of the opportunity to provide him with more
> information and an alternate viewpoint.

I don't feel the need to do this.  Are you volunteering?

> He already stated that he looked at the web site you pointed to and it
> did not seem to provide a description of the dangers of rfid technology.

I didn't point Travis to any (particular) web site.

> I just looked at it as well and I have to agree.  There is no obvious
> statement pointing out what the actual dangers of rfid tech are.  Just a
> continuous message/statement about "dangers to privacy".  
>
> I find that message is no more credible than any random spin doctoring.

I'm not spinning anything.  I merely pointed out a serious flaw in
somebody's argument.  If Travis had written:

   I wrote a letter to the editor two years ago but I haven't really
   had much to say since then.  I really don't value my value my right
   to speak freely.  I see no problem with letting the government take
   this right away from all citizens.

...then I would have responded in exactly the same way.

> Can't you or the website provide an explicit detailed illustration or
> scenario which clarifies exactly what the danger (or one of the dangers)
> is?   A simple "what if" example is all that is needed.

What if some of the participants on this mailing list didn't
appreciate the fact that I intentionally didn't express my opinions of
RFID and then tried to cajole me into defending some alternate
opinion, despite the fact that at no point did I express an
inclination to do so?

>> 1:  not relevant to this list.
> Then you should not have mentioned it here in the first place. ;-)

I didn't start this thread  (Randy did).  I didn't initially respond
to this thread (Travis did).  I only responded to a flaw in somebody's
argument.  If you believe that I was wrong in my assessment of Travis'
argument, please tell me where I went wrong.


Let me make this clear:  at no point in this thread have I expressed
my opinion of anything related to RFID.

Regards,

--kevin
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Brian Chabot]

Bill Sconce wrote:

>Arguably it's not very different (other than the RF exposure you'll get
>at the checkout counter) from a barcode tag.
>  
>

The RF exposure is a consideration, but I honestly don't think the
current readers are all that powerful.  You get more RF exposure walking
past your own refrigerator most likely. Or sitting in front of a CRT.

>On the other hand, plans for RFID tags go beyond stickers on boxes.
>Suppose they were, say, sewn into a jacket?  THEN your person becomes
>trackable well after you leave the store. 
>

Technically, your jacket is the trackable item, but that's beside the
point. 

Is there (coming a little closer to on-topic here) a publicly available
RFID sensor/reader?  It shouldn't be too hard to pull off.  Run a moving
current over an area, listen for a low level transmission.  Something
like that would be quite useful in locating RFID tags in/on/attached to
your posessions or person.


> A similar argument raged
>recently over binding RFID tags into passports, for similar reasons.
>  
>

...And I think the US Government has a pretty good solution, too.  They
wanted to put the RFID *inside* the passport while making the cover out
of or lined with a metallic material so that the RFID couldn't be read
unless you actually open the cover.

Over my mental protests, I do have an EZ-Pass.  It came with an
anti-static bag to put it in if you don't want to be tracked.  Hell, the
tint on my front windshield is enough to block the signal.  (I really
wish they'd go back to the tokens.  They were a better value and pretty
much anonymous.) 

Now I *know* we all can find antistatic bags laying around.  If there
were a cheap RFID locator, we could just toss the damned things into
these bags and not worry about them.


Brian



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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Bill Sconce]

I found the reference.  It was indeed Bruce Schneier.  "Identify people in
crowds" is in the next to last paragraph.

-Bill


http://www.schneier.com/essay-060.html

_
Does Big Brother want to watch?

By Bruce Schneier
International Herald Tribune
October 4, 2004

Since the terrorist attacks of 2001, the Bush administration -- specifically,
the Department of Homeland Security -- has wanted the world to agree on a
standard for machine-readable passports. Countries whose citizens currently
do not have visa requirements to enter the United States will have to issue 
passports that conform to the standard or risk losing their nonvisa status.

These future passports, currently being tested, will include an embedded
computer chip. This chip will allow the passport to contain much more 
information than a simple machine-readable character font, and will allow
passport officials  to quickly and easily read that information. That is
a reasonable requirement and a good idea for bringing passport technology
into the 21st century.

But the Bush administration is advocating radio frequency identification 
(RFID) chips for both U.S. and foreign passports, and that's a very bad 
thing.

These chips are like smart cards, but they can be read from a distance. A
receiving device can "talk" to the chip remotely, without any need for
physical contact, and get whatever information is on it. Passport officials
envision being able to download the information on the chip simply by 
bringing it within a few centimeters of an electronic reader.

Unfortunately, RFID chips can be read by any reader, not just the ones at
passport control. The upshot of this is that travelers carrying around RFID
passports are broadcasting their identity.

Think about what that means for a minute. It means that passport holders
are continuously broadcasting their name, nationality, age, address and
whatever else is on the RFID chip. It means that anyone with a reader can
learn that information, without the passport holder's knowledge or consent.
It means that pickpockets, kidnappers and terrorists can easily -- and 
surreptitiously -- pick Americans or nationals of other participating
countries out of a crowd.

It is a clear threat to both privacy and personal safety, and quite simply,
that is why it is bad idea. Proponents of the system claim that the chips
can be read only from within a distance of a few centimeters, so there is
no potential for abuse. This is a spectacularly na\ufffdve claim. All
wireless protocols can work at much longer ranges than specified. In tests,
RFID chips have been read by receivers 20 meters away. Improvements in
technology are inevitable.

Security is always a trade-off. If the benefits of RFID outweighed the
risks, then maybe it would be worth it. Certainly, there isn't a 
significant benefit when people present their passport to a customs 
official. If that customs official is going to take the passport and 
bring it near a reader, why can't he go those extra few centimeters that
a contact chip -- one the reader must actually touch -- would require?

The Bush administration is deliberately choosing a less secure technology
without justification. If there were a good offsetting reason to choose
that technology over a contact chip, then the choice might make sense.

Unfortunately, there is only one possible reason: The administration
wants surreptitious access themselves. It wants to be able to identify
people in crowds. It wants to surreptitiously pick out the Americans,
and pick out the foreigners. It wants to do the very thing that it
insists, despite demonstrations to the contrary, can't be done.

Normally I am very careful before I ascribe such sinister motives to a
government agency. Incompetence is the norm, and malevolence is much rarer.
But this seems like a clear case of the Bush administration putting its 
own interests above the security and privacy of its citizens, and then
lying about it.
_
Bruce Schneier is a security technologist and the author of "Beyond Fear:
Thinking Sensibly About Security in an Uncertain World."
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Bill Sconce]

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:18:49 -0400
Travis Roy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> > On the other hand, plans for RFID tags go beyond stickers on boxes.
> > Suppose they were, say, sewn into a jacket?  THEN your person becomes
> > trackable well after you leave the store.  A similar argument raged
> > recently over binding RFID tags into passports, for similar reasons.
> 
> See, and these things I do have a problem with. Putting them on the tag 
> that's removed that is attached to the jacked, I'm fine with that.. IN 
> the jacket is not cool.
> 
> I'm less annoyed with passports then with say a drivers license, but 
> it's still an issue.


"Less annoyed" is inappropriate.  For any document carried on your person.
Consider a point raised about passports (in one of Bruce Schneier's discussions,
if I remember correctly):  that the person carrying it would be indentifiable
remotely, and at a considerable distance if a directional antenna were used.
What if someone with a political agenda wanted to identify Americans on
the street, in say Paris or Instanbul?

Or if an administration wanted to know who had come into town for a
demonstration?

(The RFID tags in passports or driver's licenses would be different, of
course, in that their data relate directly to a person's identity, whereas
an RFID tag sewn into a jacket could do so only indirectly.)

I think I do agree with Travis that a tag I can see and remove is relatively
innocuous.  It's the unseen ones, and especially the idea that RFID tags
can be read without your knowledge, and at a distance...

-Bill

Whose EZ-Pass transponder stays in a tin box in the glove compartment except
at the toll booths.


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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Bill McGonigle]

On Oct 25, 2005, at 12:32, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


2:  I am certain that conversing with somebody such as yourself
who has already made the value judgement to obtain an
EZ Pass will yield absolutely no results.


Isn't there a world of difference between driving down the highway and 
reporting to the Government "I'm here" "Now I'm Here" "OK, I'm over 
here now - are you getting all this down?"


and

An anonymous inventory control tag on a box that's going to the 
dumpster?  I would think the better protest would be around wireless 
print servers, which broadcast a MAC that's easily readable from the 
road (not to mention the unencrypted print data stream).


I don't think that there's a necessary link between inventory control 
RFID and mandatory implanted RFID, but perhaps I missed something.


If one is advertising an [apparently] luddite protest on this list it's 
fair for others to request some rationale for the protest.


-Bill
-
Bill McGonigle, Owner   Work: 603.448.4440
BFC Computing, LLC  Home: 603.448.1668
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Mobile: 603.252.2606
http://www.bfccomputing.com/Pager: 603.442.1833
Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Text: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Blog: http://blog.bfccomputing.com/

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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Travis Roy]

   For example, Gillette uses RFID in its razor packages.  Gillette, in 
conjunction with retailers, has come up with store shelves which snap a photo 
of any potential customer whenever anyone picks up a package of razors off 
the shelf.


That could easily be done with other technologies besides RFID.
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Randy Edwards]

 > I agree, I am not quite sure what all the huff about the HP printers is
 > about though.

   I'm not familiar with the group organizing the protest, but I get the 
impression their primary objective is to try to get the RFID issue into the 
public's mind.

 Regards,
 .
 Randy

-- 
US citizens jailed without charges or trial FOR YEARS, seizing property based 
on "secret" evidence, wire taps and surveillance, urging millions to spy on 
their neighbors, military tribunals, US-run torture prisons and Cuban 
concentration camps, FBI no-evidence "warrants" to search your library 
records or home; and we're supposedly fighting for freedom?!?
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Jeff Kinz]

On Tue, Oct 25, 2005 at 04:32:47PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > Please, explain to me how this is a threat.
> 
> No, I will not for the following reasons:
> 
> 1:  not relevant to this list.
> 
> 2:  I am certain that conversing with somebody such as yourself
> who has already made the value judgement to obtain an
> EZ Pass will yield absolutely no results.
> 
> 3:  I'm fairly confident that the web sites/FAQs offer explanations.
> 
> 4:  I'll bet that you could find a better place to post your opinions/queries.
> 
> 
> I only responded to your email because of the gigantic falacy in your
> line of reasoning, which was basically:
>  
> I made a value judgement about ;
> I don't understand why everybody else doesn't think 
> the way that I do.


Kevin, I don't think you're being fair.  I'm not arguing against your
position, I'm arguing against your non-response.

Travis may have made a judgment or he may have simply accepted a default
arrangement that adds value and convenience to his life or that has been
mandated by his employer(EZ_pass,and entry card)

Since most of the US population is making the same decision as Travis
you should take advantage of the opportunity to provide him with more
information and an alternate viewpoint.

He already stated that he looked at the web site you pointed to and it
did not seem to provide a description of the dangers of rfid technology.

I just looked at it as well and I have to agree.  There is no obvious
statement pointing out what the actual dangers of rfid tech are.  Just a
continuous message/statement about "dangers to privacy".  

I find that message is no more credible than any random spin doctoring.

Can't you or the website provide an explicit detailed illustration or
scenario which clarifies exactly what the danger (or one of the dangers)
is?   A simple "what if" example is all that is needed.

> 1:  not relevant to this list.
Then you should not have mentioned it here in the first place. ;-)


-- 
speech recognition software may have been used in the composition of 
this e-mail
Jeff Kinz, Emergent Research, Hudson, MA.
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Randy Edwards]

 > Is RFID for inventory really that big of a deal?

   Yes.  The problem is that there are no restrictions in how the chips will 
be used.

   For example, Gillette uses RFID in its razor packages.  Gillette, in 
conjunction with retailers, has come up with store shelves which snap a photo 
of any potential customer whenever anyone picks up a package of razors off 
the shelf.

   That's simple RFID inventory technology -- but it's not the type we 
normally think of and who knows how those photos and data are being used.  
The public is woefully ignorant of RFID and its potential uses and misuses.

 Regards,
 .
 Randy

-- 
There's no such thing as "Intellectual 'Property'".  All ideas are owned by 
the public and are in the public domain.  The creator of an idea is granted a 
temporary monopoly called a copyright (or patent) before the idea returns to 
the public.
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Travis Roy]

On the other hand, plans for RFID tags go beyond stickers on boxes.
Suppose they were, say, sewn into a jacket?  THEN your person becomes
trackable well after you leave the store.  A similar argument raged
recently over binding RFID tags into passports, for similar reasons.


See, and these things I do have a problem with. Putting them on the tag 
that's removed that is attached to the jacked, I'm fine with that.. IN 
the jacket is not cool.


I'm less annoyed with passports then with say a drivers license, but 
it's still an issue.

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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Bill Sconce]

> Considering what other devices use barcodes and that actually have 
> valuable data that can be stolen and reused (EZ-Pass, car keys, 
> Speedpass). I don't see the big deal with a RFID on a box for inventory 
> tracking.


Arguably it's not very different (other than the RF exposure you'll get
at the checkout counter) from a barcode tag.

On the other hand, plans for RFID tags go beyond stickers on boxes.
Suppose they were, say, sewn into a jacket?  THEN your person becomes
trackable well after you leave the store.  A similar argument raged
recently over binding RFID tags into passports, for similar reasons.

-Bill
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Travis Roy]

 > Please, explain to me how this is a threat.

No, I will not for the following reasons:

1:  not relevant to this list.


It was made relevant by you posting about the demonstration. And you are 
more then free to post to me off-list.



2:  I am certain that conversing with somebody such as yourself
who has already made the value judgement to obtain an
EZ Pass will yield absolutely no results.


I have said I had concerns about EZ-Pass (being able to track speed and 
autosend tickets for example). I looked at the pros and cons and made a 
decision that I think is justified based on what I knew at the time.


Clearly you think that I made a bad decision and I would like to know 
why so I can re-evaluate my decision. Everybody can't have all the facts 
all the time. I have been wrong before, I admit that I may be wrong again.



3:  I'm fairly confident that the web sites/FAQs offer explanations.


I looked over the spychips site and read the FAQ. If anyplace was going 
to clearly show the threat I would think it would be them. They really 
don't give much of a threat except for the fact that products that have 
an RFID chip don't have anything on the package saying that they have 
one. I don't see that as much of a threat.



4:  I'll bet that you could find a better place to post your
opinions/queries.


Perhaps, but the thread is here.


I only responded to your email because of the gigantic falacy in your
line of reasoning, which was basically:

I made a value judgement about ;
I don't understand why everybody else doesn't think
the way that I do.

If you wish to continue with this line of reasoning, I'll be happy to
provide a parody.


I think it's more:

I made a decision based on the information at hand.
Somebody tells me I made the wrong decision but gives me nothing of 
substance to make me change my mind.


And I do understand why people don't like it, but I would like to see 
more justification for the logic.


It's like the people that got food irradiation banned because they 
thought it would make your food radioactive. They clearly did not have 
all the facts.


My stance on RFID is very clear. I think it's a great technology. Like 
all technologies it has a potential for abuse and I think we should do 
something to curb the abuse.


From my view, Wal-Mart is using RFID for inventory control and I see no 
issues with that. Do you have evidence to the contrary? Please show me, 
because I can't find it. In fact, I think using RFID for inventory 
control is a fantastic use of it.

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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Michael Costolo]

On 10/25/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:> Please, explain to me how this is a threat.No, I will not for the following reasons:
1:  not relevant to this list.2:  I am certain that conversing with somebody such as yourselfwho has already made the value judgement to obtain anEZ Pass will yield absolutely no results.
3:  I'm fairly confident that the web sites/FAQs offer explanations.4:  I'll bet that you could find a better place to post your opinions/queries.I only responded to your email because of the gigantic falacy in your
line of reasoning, which was basically:I made a value judgement about ;I don't understand why everybody else doesn't thinkthe way that I do.If you wish to continue with this line of reasoning, I'll be happy to
provide a parody.--kevin

 Reasoning such as this shall surely never be refuted.  Where does one sign up for the newsletter?

-Mike-

Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[kevin_d_clark]

> Please, explain to me how this is a threat.

No, I will not for the following reasons:

1:  not relevant to this list.

2:  I am certain that conversing with somebody such as yourself
who has already made the value judgement to obtain an
EZ Pass will yield absolutely no results.

3:  I'm fairly confident that the web sites/FAQs offer explanations.

4:  I'll bet that you could find a better place to post your opinions/queries.


I only responded to your email because of the gigantic falacy in your
line of reasoning, which was basically:
 
I made a value judgement about ;
I don't understand why everybody else doesn't think 
the way that I do.

If you wish to continue with this line of reasoning, I'll be happy to
provide a parody.

--kevin


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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Travis Roy]

Just because *you* don't see the fear doesn't mean that there exists
fear and that this fear might be justified.

You've made a value judgement here; other people might come to
different conclusions.


That's fine, but even after reading the site (overview and FAQ). I don't 
see how a glorified UPC code that basically transmits a barcode number 
via radio waves is a threat.


Even more so if it's on the box that usually gets thrown out.

Considering what other devices use barcodes and that actually have 
valuable data that can be stolen and reused (EZ-Pass, car keys, 
Speedpass). I don't see the big deal with a RFID on a box for inventory 
tracking.


Please, explain to me how this is a threat.
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[kevin_d_clark]

Travis Roy writes:

> Considering I already carry three RFID cards in my wallet (one for
> each datacenter I go to) and then one in each car (EZ Pass) and I had
> one when I had an Mobil Speedpass I really don't see the fear.

Just because *you* don't see the fear doesn't mean that there exists
fear and that this fear might be justified.

You've made a value judgement here; other people might come to
different conclusions.

--kevin
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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Travis Roy]

The range isn't really that limited.  There are simple plans on the 'net to
build an RFID sniffer that can excite and read most RFID tags from several
meters away.

I agree, I am not quite sure what all the huff about the HP printers is
about though.


Okay, so they know I have a printer.. big deal. Anything that helps a 
store keep better track of it's inventory, helps prevent theft, and 
ultimately keep costs down is good with me. The ability to inventory a 
whole pallet of items in a seconds has to be worth it.


It's probably easier to visually see the printer in somebody's car then 
it is to try and track it via RFID, since it's in a big metal box (the car).


I'd be more concerned about them setting up EZ-Pass readers along the 
highway to calculate speed and automatically send speeding tickets then 
stuff used for inventory control.


Between discount cards, credit cards, barcodes, and security cameras, 
they already have more then enough information then an RFID chip would 
ever give them..


Reminds me of that casino that put RFIDs in the casino chips and people 
were complaining about tracking.. in a CASINO. How stupid.






-Original Message-
The range is so limited unless you have a active device (like 
EZ-Pass) and the fact that Wal-Mart is using them for 
inventory control (as in item number, not unique ID for every 
single printer) the only thing anybody can really "track" is 
that you bought printer..

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RE: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Brian]

The range isn't really that limited.  There are simple plans on the 'net to
build an RFID sniffer that can excite and read most RFID tags from several
meters away.

I agree, I am not quite sure what all the huff about the HP printers is
about though.

> -Original Message-
> The range is so limited unless you have a active device (like 
> EZ-Pass) and the fact that Wal-Mart is using them for 
> inventory control (as in item number, not unique ID for every 
> single printer) the only thing anybody can really "track" is 
> that you bought printer..

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Re: [OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Travis Roy]

Is RFID for inventory really that big of a deal? My understanding 
Wal-Mart uses them for inventory control, much like a barcode.


Considering I already carry three RFID cards in my wallet (one for each 
datacenter I go to) and then one in each car (EZ Pass) and I had one 
when I had an Mobil Speedpass I really don't see the fear.


The range is so limited unless you have a active device (like EZ-Pass) 
and the fact that Wal-Mart is using them for inventory control (as in 
item number, not unique ID for every single printer) the only thing 
anybody can really "track" is that you bought printer..


Randy Edwards wrote:
   On Nov. 5th there's going to be a protest at the Bedford Wal-Mart, 3:00 PM 
to 4:30 PM, against HP's printers being sold with RFID chips.  For more 
information: .


 Regards,
 .
 Randy


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[OT] NH protest against HP printers with RFID chips Nov. 5th

[Randy Edwards]

   On Nov. 5th there's going to be a protest at the Bedford Wal-Mart, 3:00 PM 
to 4:30 PM, against HP's printers being sold with RFID chips.  For more 
information: .

 Regards,
 .
 Randy

-- 
 Why do geeks get Halloween and Christmas confused?
 Because 31 oct = 25 dec.
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