FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Greg Rundlett]

The Free Software Foundation is looking for a GNU/Linux Sys Admin.  
http://www.fsf.org/jobs/fsf-sysadmin.html

This has been open for a little while, but I don't think it is filled 
yet (page still exists).  The pay seems a bit low, especially in 
Cambridge, but I don't know what a Sys Admin should earn.  But heck you 
get to work with Richard Stallman and Eben Moglen!  That plus 17 paid 
holidays should make for a Happy Gnu Year.  :-)

- Greg
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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Brian Chabot]

Greg Rundlett wrote:
> The Free Software Foundation is looking for a GNU/Linux Sys Admin.
> http://www.fsf.org/jobs/fsf-sysadmin.html
This makes me REALLY wish I was a coder.  I'm recently unemployed and 
fit (or could reasonably fake) all the requirements except:
3+ years experience with at least two programming languages.
(and of course the programming skills requirements...)

GRR.
And the pay is low, but the benefits are significantly higher than 
anything on the market today.  I mean full medical, FOUR WEEKS PAID 
vacation, plus holidays, a new notebook, and a cell phone?  DAMN.  I 
haven't seen benifits in IT like that since before the bubble burst.

Brian
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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Fred]

On Wed, 2004-12-15 at 23:31, Brian Chabot wrote:
> Greg Rundlett wrote:
>  > The Free Software Foundation is looking for a GNU/Linux Sys Admin.
>  > http://www.fsf.org/jobs/fsf-sysadmin.html
> 
> This makes me REALLY wish I was a coder.  I'm recently unemployed and 
> fit (or could reasonably fake) all the requirements except:
> 3+ years experience with at least two programming languages.
> (and of course the programming skills requirements...)
> 
> GRR.
> 
> And the pay is low, but the benefits are significantly higher than 
> anything on the market today.  I mean full medical, FOUR WEEKS PAID 
> vacation, plus holidays, a new notebook, and a cell phone?  DAMN.  I 
> haven't seen benifits in IT like that since before the bubble burst.

Looked at it, and the pay is REALLY low. Then again, it's a union job,
and I despise unions in any case. I'm wondering why a software/admin job
would be unionized. A *Free Software* job of all things. Strange.
Spooky. Ironic. Maybe I missed something. Has Boston unionized the IT
profession?

Of course, if you're "starving", anything will look sweet. And if you
have a family, the benefits don't suck either. 

Another negative is that it is in Massachusetts, and on top of the low
salary you get to pay  in mass taxes that of which you receive no
material benefit from (unless you live in Mass, in which case you have
my sympathies. :-)).

Aside from all those negatives, it looks like an interesting position.
Too many negatives for my tastes, though. I've been looking for a way to
contribute to Free Software, but still have a family to feed, a
mortgage, and all the usual "facts of life" issues...
-- 
Fred -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- place "[hey]" in your subject.
The mass of humans on planet Earth -- regard them as the ebbing 
seas in the winds of change. They ebb, they flow, they know not 
where to go.

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RE: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Brian]

 
>(Then again, not many programming jobs are five minutes away, have an
in-office mike and ike dispenser, a foosball table, 
>and a MAME-based stand up arcade machine...)

Chris, you know I mean this with all due respect, but you need to get out
more.

The 5 minutes away part is always a variable, but the rest of the "perks"
are (IME) standard tech offerings.

Someone else seemed to think that a new laptop and cellphone, along with
benefits and vacation, were big "perks", IMO those are just the standard
offerings.

>Does anyone have any experience with hiring, such that they could tell me
how screwed I am if I ever leave my current job, >since I dropped out of
college to take it? At the moment, I'm quite happy, and planning on resuming
studies 
>(although not full time) relatively soon to finish a degree, but if I were
to quit my job today and start looking, 
> how difficult would it be to move into some IT or programming (mostly web)
position given a lack of degree?

As I've told you before, I think that you're giving up the ability to earn
more than you currently do.  Especially with all the women you have to
support ;)  I've known plenty of places that hire without a college degree.
Hell *I* have no college degree and I'm a hiring manager...  If you weren't
so hung up on the 5 minutes away part (and was willing to travel a bit) I
could probably make a spot for you on my team early next year...

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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Mark Komarinski]

On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 06:34:27AM -0500, Fred wrote:
> 
> Another negative is that it is in Massachusetts, and on top of the low
> salary you get to pay  in mass taxes that of which you receive no
> material benefit from (unless you live in Mass, in which case you have
> my sympathies. :-)).
> 

If you want to see taxes, move to NY.  My brother lives in a house valued
about 1/2 of mine, pays three times the property taxes I do plus a
separate school tax.  Then there's the 8.25% sales tax and the income tax.

And that's upstate NY.  It's worse in NYC.

Taxachusetts indeed.

-Mark


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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Thomas M. Albright]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004, Mark Komarinski wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 06:34:27AM -0500, Fred wrote:
> > 
> > Another negative is that it is in Massachusetts, and on top of the low
> > salary you get to pay  in mass taxes that of which you receive no
> > material benefit from (unless you live in Mass, in which case you have
> > my sympathies. :-)).
> > 
> 
> If you want to see taxes, move to NY.  My brother lives in a house valued
> about 1/2 of mine, pays three times the property taxes I do plus a
> separate school tax.  Then there's the 8.25% sales tax and the income tax.
> 
> And that's upstate NY.  It's worse in NYC.
> 
I'm actually planning ot move to Upstate NY hopefully next summer. 
(We've been looking, but we won't move in the winter.) We currently 
live on 62 acres in Northwood, NH. We paid 300+K for what we have. In 
upstate NY we can get twice the land + more house & outbuildings for 
half what we paid for our current place. And property taxes will be 
significantly lower as well. Even adding in sales and income taxes, we 
will still end up paying less to live in NY that we're paying to live in 
NH.

Given: most of the taxeas paid outside of the City are used to finance 
City programs. That sucks, but it's the price you pay.

There is a web site that does a cost-of-living analysis between
different areas, but I don't remember where it is. (Or it may just show 
the TCL of a variety of different places, I'm not sure which.)

> Taxachusetts indeed.
> 
Yep.

-- 
TARogue (Linux user number 234357)
 "I do not believe that they are like the Scots or the Welsh and doubt
 that they ever will be. The real British interest would I think be
 served best by pushing them towards a United Ireland rather than tying
 them closer to the United Kingdom. Our own parliamentary history is one
 long story of trouble with Ireland."
 -- Sir Alex Douglas-Hume (13 March 1972)
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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Thomas M. Albright]

One quick follow-up: do you mean Upstate NY (W. of Albany) or Downstate 
(E. of Albany, not the City)? Having grown up in Rochester, NY, I get a 
bit uppity hearing people from Eastern NY saying they're "Upstate" 
just beacause they don't live in the City.

Yeah, I'm biased.

-- 
TARogue (Linux user number 234357)
 There are 10^11 stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge
 number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the
 national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers.
 Now we should call them economical numbers.
 -Richard Feynman, physicist, Nobel laureate (1918-1988)
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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Ken D'Ambrosio]

If you want to see taxes, move to NY.  My brother lives in a house valued
about 1/2 of mine, pays three times the property taxes I do plus a
separate school tax.  Then there's the 8.25% sales tax and the income tax.
And that's upstate NY.  It's worse in NYC.  
 

Actually, I believe the state tax is 7%; it's only 8.25% in NYC.  The 
part that REALLY sucks about NYC, though -- and some other states/cities 
do this, too -- is this: if you're married, work in NYC, and live in 
(say) New Jersey, and your spouse neither lives nor works in NYC... NYC 
can still tax your spouse's income!!!  This went all the way to the 
Supreme Court, where it was (to my astonishment) upheld; I would have 
considered it taxation w/o representation.

On a more Linux-y angle, has anyone tried out Trac 
(http://trac.edgewall.com/ 
), 
a sort of ticket tracker/front end for Subversion.  I'm interested in 
possibly giving it a go, but between Subversion, which I've never set 
up, and Trac on top of it, it'll be a bit of an investment, and was 
hoping someone had some input.

Thanks!
-Ken
Taxachusetts indeed.
-Mark
 

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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[travis]

> More to the point, I'm lacking the undergraduate college degree they're
> looking for, and probably have a bit less experience as a sysadmin than
> I'd be expected to. Unfortunate, since it looks like something that
> would be really cool other than that.
>
> Does anyone have any experience with hiring, such that they could tell
> me how screwed I am if I ever leave my current job, since I dropped out
> of college to take it? At the moment, I'm quite happy, and planning on
> resuming studies (although not full time) relatively soon to finish a
> degree, but if I were to quit my job today and start looking, how
> difficult would it be to move into some IT or programming (mostly web)
> position given a lack of degree?

At some point your experience is better then some thing hanging on your wall.

I dropped out of NHTI's CPET program because it didn't fit my needs. To
much electrical engineering stuff I wasn't interested in, and way to
strong a focus on WinNT. Let me give you a bit of my work history.

I dropped out of NHTI and started helping an old teacher friend doing
theatre in high school. This didn't pay anything but it gave me some
management experience that looked good. I was also the assistant state
director of ETA for about 3 years. During this time I looked for tech work
but didn't find much and became a janitor (a much better job then people
make it out to be). This paid the bills while I looked for more tech work.

I eventually took a pay cut ($10.50hr down to $7.50hr) to do tech support
at MV.Com. But I did this to get my foot in the door. Luckally I was still
able to live at my parents house. After about 7ish months there I got a
job at MediaOne working at the NOC (for the internal network, not the
customer network). That gave me HUGE experience and they sent me to
training. I was there for one year (making 32k/year) then got promoted to
night supervisor and got bumped up to 42k/year.

With rumors of the AT&T merger looming and my future uncertin I decided to
look for employment elsewhere. With the training and spare time I had
working at the NOC I taught myself a lot of useful skill, setup my own
personal server, and hosted a few friend's sites. I ended up landing a
sweet job at BURST! Media as a linux admin making 62k/year. I got a small
raise (up to 65k/year) and a small title change (Computer Security/Linux
Admin) after a year. But this was during the bubble bursting (hah, while I
worked at Burst!) so I didn't expect much for a raise.

Two things I learnt from that job.. 1. Open office sucks and 2. don't
trust ANYBODY. There was a LOT of backstabbing going on at that company.

Anyway, layoffs happened shortly after 9/11. I was unemployed for 9
months. The market sucked and I took a job at Mailways. I snail mail junk
mail company where I would load up reel to reel tape from big warehouse
companies (think BJs) of customer address and print out THOUSANDS of
labels, sort them by region and send them down the shoot to the poor
people downstairs that had to put the lables on the mailings. All while
stepping over the dead birds on the floor and setting mouse traps (no
joke). I made $10/hr there. WOO HOO.

After about 8 months there I left to work at Net Technologies (HI BEN). I
made about 41k/year there doing just about anything and everything. That
was another good real life learning ground.

After a year there I moved on to my current job at Colospace. Where I'm a
"Data Center Tech" but I really just manage the Manchester data center, I
walk to work it's so close. I make 42k/year, and again, do a little of
everything.

There was also a summer working for my uncle's sign shop (Jutras Signs).

I've never felt that me not having a degree has hurt me in any way as my
work experience shows a diverse range of skills. If anything I've
encountered a wider range of equipment and OSes then I ever would at NHTI.
>From AS/400s to Xenix, Win2k3 to old XTs running Dos.




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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Mark Komarinski]

On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 09:42:27AM -0500, Ken D'Ambrosio wrote:
> 
> >And that's upstate NY.  It's worse in NYC.  
> > 
> >
> Actually, I believe the state tax is 7%; it's only 8.25% in NYC.

Sales tax varies per county.  It's a state base of 4.25%, then something
tacked on by the county.  Schenectady County (where my brother lives)
adds 4%.

I'll let the interested google on "sales tax NY".

> On a more Linux-y angle, has anyone tried out Trac 
> (http://trac.edgewall.com/ 
> ), 
> a sort of ticket tracker/front end for Subversion.  I'm interested in 
> possibly giving it a go, but between Subversion, which I've never set 
> up, and Trac on top of it, it'll be a bit of an investment, and was 
> hoping someone had some input.

We use a combination of RT and Twiki for issue tracking.  RT is REALLY
nice software, and is so far beating the pants off the local Remedy
server in terms of performance, usability, and features.  And price.

-Mark


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RE: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[travis]

> The 5 minutes away part is always a variable, but the rest of the
> "perks" are (IME) standard tech offerings.

Totally, a mame cabinet, big woop. You're at work, you should be doing
work, not playing games. :) Actually at Burst we had a breakroom with a
fooseball table. That got locked when the shit started hitting the fan and
sales were in the toilet.

Living a 2min walk from work now I can say it is nice. Walk home for lunch
and all that. But we also have facilites in Marlborough and Somerville so
I have to travel to those now and then (I'm in Somerville today).

I make okay pay for what I do. Would I travel up to an hour for twice the
pay.. of course.

> Someone else seemed to think that a new laptop and cellphone, along with
> benefits and vacation, were big "perks", IMO those are just the standard
> offerings.

Not just standard offerings but they are required to do a sysadmin job
effectively. I have a work issued laptop and I get $100 towards my
personal cell phone a month. I actually like this better because it allows
me to not carry a second cell for personal stuff, or feel like I'm
mooching off my work cell phone for personal calls. It also lets me pick
the plan/phone I want. If you work for a decent smaller company getting
the time off you need usually isn't a problem (even more so with the extra
hours us sysadmins do). Benefits I really could care less about since my
wife is a teacher and I get great benefits from her job.


> As I've told you before, I think that you're giving up the ability to
> earn more than you currently do.  Especially with all the women you have
> to support ;)  I've known plenty of places that hire without a college
> degree. Hell *I* have no college degree and I'm a hiring manager...  If
> you weren't so hung up on the 5 minutes away part (and was willing to
> travel a bit) I could probably make a spot for you on my team early next
> year...

I agree, for what I know of Chris and what he does he could make a lot
more money. So you spend 30-40mins on the road to/from work. Big deal,
tons of people do it. You may spend less time with the ones you love, but
you can afford to get them a bigger place, a better car for you to commute
in, and can take better vacations.



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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Jon maddog Hall]

Hi,

[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> This makes me REALLY wish I was a coder.  I'm recently unemployed and  fit
> (or could reasonably fake) all the requirements except: 3+ years experience
> with at least two programming languages. (and of course the programming
> skills requirements...) 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> More to the point, I'm lacking the undergraduate college degree they're
> looking for, and probably have a bit less experience as a sysadmin than  I'd
> be expected to. Unfortunate, since it looks like something that would be
> really cool other than that.

People looking for employees often list more qualifications than they are
willing to accept.  If the ad has been running a while, it means that they
have not found the person they want, and they are still looking.

My first job out of college was programming in IBM assembler on an MVS system.
While in college I had never touched an IBM system, or studied IBM assembler.
I picked up everything I had to know by reading a book an studying on my own
AFTER I had taken the job.  I was up front with the employer, and told them
that I had learned PDP-8 assembler by self-study, and based on this, they
hired me.

You show up and apply for the job.  They point out that you have something
lacking.  You tell them that you are a quick study, that they could hire you
for six months and if you don't work out then you leave and everyone is
better off.  In the meantime:

o Brian, you would take courses in programming.  You may already know
  one language: bash and shell scripting.  If you know that, Perl is
  not too far behind.

o Christopher, you tell them you will go back at night and finish your
  degree.  Yes, you can do it.  I got my Masters at night while working
  full time.  You might even get them to pay for it after a short
  "trial period".

If you don't apply for the job, you will never get it.  If you do apply and
they turn you down, at least you will know you tried, and they missed out on
getting a really good sys admin.

Warmest regards,

maddog

-- 
Jon "maddog" Hall
Executive Director   Linux International(R)
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 80 Amherst St. 
Voice: +1.603.672.4557   Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A.
WWW: http://www.li.org

Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association

(R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries.
(R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant
   to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus
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(R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other
   countries.

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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Christopher Schmidt]

On Thu, Dec 16, 2004 at 10:10:43AM -0500, Jon maddog Hall wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> > This makes me REALLY wish I was a coder.  I'm recently unemployed and  fit
> > (or could reasonably fake) all the requirements except: 3+ years experience
> > with at least two programming languages. (and of course the programming
> > skills requirements...) 
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> > More to the point, I'm lacking the undergraduate college degree they're
> > looking for, and probably have a bit less experience as a sysadmin than  I'd
> > be expected to. Unfortunate, since it looks like something that would be
> > really cool other than that.
> 
> People looking for employees often list more qualifications than they are
> willing to accept.  If the ad has been running a while, it means that they
> have not found the person they want, and they are still looking.

Something I'm well aware of; I learned some good lessons from my parents, and
this is definitely one of them. I got the job I'm at now for precisely this
reason: the qualifications were a bit more than what I had experience with,
but I applied anyway, since the job description fit me almost perfectly
otherwise.

I ended up working here, despite being at the tail end of a 3 week 
interview process, and not having all the skills they were looking for, since
I was pretty much the ideal candidate other than knowing Macromedia Flash.

I told them that I was self-taught with almost everything I knew, looking
to learn more, and that's the basic reason I got hired: they didn't want 
someone who knew everything, they wanted someone who could learn everything.

> My first job out of college was programming in IBM assembler on an MVS system.
> While in college I had never touched an IBM system, or studied IBM assembler.
> I picked up everything I had to know by reading a book an studying on my own
> AFTER I had taken the job.  I was up front with the employer, and told them
> that I had learned PDP-8 assembler by self-study, and based on this, they
> hired me.
> 
> You show up and apply for the job.  They point out that you have something
> lacking.  You tell them that you are a quick study, that they could hire you
> for six months and if you don't work out then you leave and everyone is
> better off.  In the meantime:
> 
>   o Brian, you would take courses in programming.  You may already know
> one language: bash and shell scripting.  If you know that, Perl is
> not too far behind.
> 
>   o Christopher, you tell them you will go back at night and finish your
> degree.  Yes, you can do it.  I got my Masters at night while working
> full time.  You might even get them to pay for it after a short
> "trial period".
>
> If you don't apply for the job, you will never get it.  If you do apply and
> they turn you down, at least you will know you tried, and they missed out on
> getting a really good sys admin.

Good point. At this point, I'm not really sure I want to leave where I do 
work; I like the environment, and I like the people, and I like being close to
home, and I like the work I do. But there's something to be said for a pay
raise, and working for ideals, something I can't do here nearly as much as I
would be able to there. Working at an advertising firm is just not quite the
same.

-- 
Christopher Schmidt


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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Fred]

On Thu, 2004-12-16 at 09:46, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
...
> I've never felt that me not having a degree has hurt me in any way as my
> work experience shows a diverse range of skills...

I've found -- painfully -- that while having a diverse ranges of skills
was a "shoe-in" in the 90's, it actually is a hindrance today, but that
may be changing. Too many places I've interviewed at wanted *specially*
someone who had X years doing skill Y, and looked down upon you if you
had many years doing A, B, and C too. And in my 25 years of being in the
field, I've "done it all".

It's a brutal market with some bright spots. Many of my friends have
fled the IT field and are doing or in training to do just about
everything else you can imagine. One became a State Policeman (!),
another a Minister (!!), and another is in training to be a Nurse (!!!).

I, being the old die-hard that I've always been, decided to wade it out.
Besides, there is nothing else I really would enjoy doing -- outside of
scientific research, which pays peanuts and have too many other
annoyances. But it was a challenge. I actually thought about becoming a
lawyer (). Well, I shouldn't say this especially here, but I even
seriously considered becoming a patent attorney (!!!). I
even came up with a scheme to work around the degree requirement --
basically, taking the FET. I looked at what was required, and it's not
much -- just some basic physics and calculus. With half a brain and good
week or two of study, anyone here should be able to pass the test. The
Patent Bar is *much* harder -- that would take 2 or 3 months of
preparation. After that, then you've got to find a patent firm that's
willing to take you in, and it's an *extremely* competitive market. But
the salary's good -- 90K and up well into the 6 figures after you've
been there awhile.

Fortunately, the field rebounded enough that I did not have to shame
myself. Phew! And no tomatoes please. I actually found a place thav
values my extensive experience over "3 years writing Java servelets and
nothing else to an Oracle database on a PC painted green using a
Microsoft Mouse".

-- 
Fred -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- place "[hey]" in your subject.
Cogitation for the day -- what does a bee and a galaxy have in common?


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RE: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Fred]

On Thu, 2004-12-16 at 09:57, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Living a 2min walk from work now I can say it is nice. Walk home for lunch
> and all that. But we also have facilites in Marlborough and Somerville so
> I have to travel to those now and then (I'm in Somerville today).

2 minute walk to work? I've got a 2-second walk to work -- roll out of
bed and plop down in my home office across the hallway to my 3-monitor
workstation, a laptop, a fax machine, and a hot cup of espresso that my
SO is so kind to get for me.

Once or twice a week I actually have to *drive* 5 minutes to the real
office to say "Hi!" to everyone, demonstrate a new feature or two I've
added to the software, and pick up my check.

I'm on call 24/7 for problems, but since I manage all the servers *from
home*, no big deal. And since I control all the systems, I can *make
sure* problems are a rarity so I don't get many calls.

You know, despite everything, it couldn't be better. And when I get
bored working at my home office, me and my laptop travel over to Borders
or some other hotspot point.

The only downside to this is that I am not getting enough exercise. How
ironic since I work for a fitness company. :-)

-- 
Fred -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- place "[hey]" in your subject.
The mass of humans on planet Earth -- regard them as the ebbing 
seas in the winds of change. They ebb, they flow, they know not 
where to go.

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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Brian Chabot]

Brian wrote:
Someone else seemed to think that a new laptop and cellphone, along with
benefits and vacation, were big "perks", IMO those are just the standard
offerings.
That was me.  The last two years have seen me working for peanuts and 
table scraps and *zero* benefits.  It's been pretty suckadelic.


If you weren't
so hung up on the 5 minutes away part (and was willing to travel a bit) I
could probably make a spot for you on my team early next year...
Hi.  I'm another Brian.  And another Linux guy who dropped out of 
college (taking an AS as a consolation prize).

(Crowd: Hi, Brian)
Right.  Any way, I'm in the market for something preferable permanent 
and I'm willing to travel, just prefer not to relocate.

I've got 6 years experience and do just about any IT stuff except 
programming, but I'm at least working on teaching myself how to make 
LAMP applications. (Been troubleshooting them for a few years, just got 
a book on the topic today...)

I figure PHP/MySQL is as good a place to start as any.  C/C++/C# and the 
Java family just seem like they need programing theory as background 
from how the books on them read.

Brian
--
---
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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Matt Oquist]

Hi Chris,

I'm the guy who shared your w/l-bluetooth-cellular Internet connection
in the Manchester Airport before Thanksgiving.

> Only you can help you with the final choice of taking the job.  But again,
> if you don't apply, you will never know what could have been.

I think this advice from Maddog is key; if you never apply, you never
have a chance to get the ball to your end of the court.  Write
a strong resume and a good cover letter (that explains how you want to
finish your education), and get your name in there.  If they turn you
down, you've lost nothing.  If you get to interview, you're one step
closer.

As a soon-to-be former employee of HP, I've recently attended a good
resume-writing workshop.  I'll be happy to pass any pointers I can on
to you if you're interested.

--matt
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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Travis Roy]

I think the general rule is if you can do 50% of the job, and it's in 
your current field go for it.

That's what I did with my BURST! job and I got it. I didn't know about 
40% of what I needed. But I showed them I could do it and learn and they 
hired me.

I was scared to death, but it was a fantastic experience.
Hi Chris,
I'm the guy who shared your w/l-bluetooth-cellular Internet connection
in the Manchester Airport before Thanksgiving.
 

Only you can help you with the final choice of taking the job.  But again,
if you don't apply, you will never know what could have been.
   

I think this advice from Maddog is key; if you never apply, you never
have a chance to get the ball to your end of the court.  Write
a strong resume and a good cover letter (that explains how you want to
finish your education), and get your name in there.  If they turn you
down, you've lost nothing.  If you get to interview, you're one step
closer.
As a soon-to-be former employee of HP, I've recently attended a good
resume-writing workshop.  I'll be happy to pass any pointers I can on
to you if you're interested.
--matt
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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Chris Brenton]

On Fri, 2004-12-17 at 06:27, Travis Roy wrote:
>
> That's what I did with my BURST! job and I got it. I didn't know about 
> 40% of what I needed. But I showed them I could do it and learn and they 
> hired me.

IMHO this is awesome advice, push your limits. Being thrown into the
middle of something you have not yet mastered is the best way to cut the
curve. Sure its more work/longer hours/etc., but the payoff is worth it.

On my first day of work at my first Net Admin job (which I BSed my way
into) my boss dropped a Wellfleet router on my desk. At the time I had
*no* idea what a router was or what it even did. That night I hit a
bookstore and kept reading till they threw me out. I purchased 3 books
on my way out the door and spent all night reading. The next day in the
office I spent the day going through the product manual and tweaking the
router. When everyone went home, I deployed it and spent a good 8 hours
troubleshooting all the resulting error messages. 

So by the time my boss showed up on my third day of employment, the
router was functional and stable. Hard pressed for him not to feel like
I didn't knew all about routers before I was even hired. ;-)

> >I think this advice from Maddog is key; if you never apply, you never
> >have a chance to get the ball to your end of the court.  Write
> >a strong resume and a good cover letter (that explains how you want to
> >finish your education), and get your name in there.

Also, it helps to do something unique that distinguishes you from the
masse' of other people in the field. Write a tool, some step-by-step
guides, a book, etc. In short, anything that says you have skills and
abilities that go above and beyond the norm. 

IMHO it all comes down to how driven you are and the choices you make.
IT can be extremely lucrative if that is what you are looking for. If
other life choices take priority (want more free time, shorter ride to
the office, etc.), then that's totally cool, but recognize that you've
made these choices if you feel the current job is not paying off. 

HTH,
Chris


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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Travis Roy]

Also, it helps to do something unique that distinguishes you from the
masse' of other people in the field. Write a tool, some step-by-step
guides, a book, etc. In short, anything that says you have skills and
abilities that go above and beyond the norm. 
That's key. I think writing procedures at MediaOne was the best 
training. Sure, there's tons of geeks out there that can setup a linux 
box. But how many can write a simple, short, and easy to follow set of 
procedures to follow when the thing breaks and you're on vacation out of 
cell phone range.

Mangers LOVE procedures. Making them generic as possible is also 
important. Also keep stripped version handy to show with your resume 
(you know, with all your company specific stuff out).

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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Jason Stephenson]

Mark Komarinski wrote:
And that's upstate NY.  It's worse in NYC.
Taxachusetts indeed.
Yeah, I moved from KY to Massachusetts a couple years ago. The sales tax 
here is lower, in KY it's 6%, and the bite from state income tax is 
about the same, though lower once you factor in some deductions that MA 
lets you take that most states don't, like rent, up to a certain amount.

Thing I don't understand are the people who live in NH, but work in MA. 
Frankly, if I did that, I'd demand to vote in MA or refuse to pay the 
state income tax.

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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Jon maddog Hall]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> Frankly, if I did that, I'd demand to vote in MA or refuse to pay the  state
> income tax. 

That type of action only worked one time.  Something about dumping tea in the
harbor.

md
-- 
Jon "maddog" Hall
Executive Director   Linux International(R)
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 80 Amherst St. 
Voice: +1.603.672.4557   Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A.
WWW: http://www.li.org

Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association

(R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries.
(R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant
   to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus
   Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis
(R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other
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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Christopher Schmidt]

On Wed, Dec 15, 2004 at 10:19:23PM -0500, Greg Rundlett wrote:
> The Free Software Foundation is looking for a GNU/Linux Sys Admin.  
> http://www.fsf.org/jobs/fsf-sysadmin.html
> 
> This has been open for a little while, but I don't think it is filled 
> yet (page still exists).  The pay seems a bit low, especially in 
> Cambridge, but I don't know what a Sys Admin should earn.  But heck you 
> get to work with Richard Stallman and Eben Moglen!  That plus 17 paid 
> holidays should make for a Happy Gnu Year.  :-)

You people all complain about low pay, but it still pays 1.5x as much as 
I'm getting for doing sysadmin+coding work at my current job. Maybe I 
should look for something different...

(Then again, not many programming jobs are five minutes away, have an 
in-office mike and ike dispenser, a foosball table, and a MAME-based 
stand up arcade machine...)

More to the point, I'm lacking the undergraduate college degree they're 
looking for, and probably have a bit less experience as a sysadmin than 
I'd be expected to. Unfortunate, since it looks like something that 
would be really cool other than that.

Does anyone have any experience with hiring, such that they could tell 
me how screwed I am if I ever leave my current job, since I dropped out 
of college to take it? At the moment, I'm quite happy, and planning on 
resuming studies (although not full time) relatively soon to finish a 
degree, but if I were to quit my job today and start looking, how 
difficult would it be to move into some IT or programming (mostly web) 
position given a lack of degree?

-- 
Christopher Schmidt


pgp1K85iOc7ks.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Tom Buskey]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 09:57:49 -0500 (EST), [EMAIL PROTECTED]
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > The 5 minutes away part is always a variable, but the rest of the
> > "perks" are (IME) standard tech offerings.
> 
> Totally, a mame cabinet, big woop. You're at work, you should be doing
> work, not playing games. :) 

And if you spend lots of time at the games during work, it'll get noticed.

One place I worked at had a volleyball court & they'd play at lunch. 
We had 6 per side with 2 rotating in (16 people!).  But that was a
cultural thing.

> Living a 2min walk from work now I can say it is nice. Walk home for lunch
> and all that. But we also have facilites in Marlborough and Somerville so
> I have to travel to those now and then (I'm in Somerville today).
> 
> I make okay pay for what I do. Would I travel up to an hour for twice the
> pay.. of course.
> 
> > Someone else seemed to think that a new laptop and cellphone, along with
> > benefits and vacation, were big "perks", IMO those are just the standard
> > offerings.

If the company thinks I need a phone/pager, of course they pay for it.
 If they want me to have remote access, they need to provide a
computer.  That's standard for sysadmin.

btw - if you look at the construction industry, plumbers, etc need to
provide all their tools and work as an apprentice to get a license. 
It's 3 (7?) years.  They also have to travel to the work site, time
not counted (usually).  We have it pretty good IMO.
 
> So you spend 30-40mins on the road to/from work. Big deal,
> tons of people do it. You may spend less time with the ones you love, but
> you can afford to get them a bigger place, a better car for you to commute
> in, and can take better vacations.

I used to commute 1-1.5 hours (one way) into Boston.  That was on the
train so I could do some reading.  Most of my jobs have been more then
30 minutes away (I'm in theLowell area).

That said, I agree w/ the travel thing. 5 days a week for 48 weeks
(vacation, sick time, holidays take out of the year) * 10 minute = 40
hours/ year.  So each extra 10 minutes you spend commuting is a work
week you don't get to be home with your family.
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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Ted Roche]

On Dec 16, 2004, at 7:27 AM, Christopher Schmidt wrote:
More to the point, I'm lacking the undergraduate college degree they're
looking for, and probably have a bit less experience as a sysadmin than
I'd be expected to. Unfortunate, since it looks like something that
would be really cool other than that.
It never hurts to ask.
Consider completing your degree through one of the many off-site 
options. Not a fly-by-night company, but real colleges and universities 
that offer legitimate degrees by combining previous school work, 
on-the-job learned skills, college night courses, and testing. Through 
the University of the State of New York's Regent's Program (now 
Excelsior College), I completed my bachelor degree while serving 
full-time in the U. S. Navy. It was hard work, but it did open the 
doors in those companies that considered an undergraduate degree to be 
a pre-requisite.

Ted Roche
Ted Roche & Associates, LLC
http://www.tedroche.com
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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Jon maddog Hall]

Christopher,

[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> Does anyone have any experience with hiring, such that they could tell  me
> how screwed I am if I ever leave my current job, since I dropped out  of
> college to take it? At the moment, I'm quite happy, and planning on  resuming
> studies (although not full time) relatively soon to finish a  degree, but if
> I were to quit my job today and start looking, how  difficult would it be to
> move into some IT or programming (mostly web)  position given a lack of
> degree? 

This is a hard question, and the answer to it really depends on a lot of 
factors,
including the times you live in and your own abilities.

Some people get started in times of short supply of college graduates, or
where the field is new, and degrees of study in that area are rare.

There are obvious examples of people who never went to college, never got
a "degree", yet were remarkably successful business and technical people.
There are even examples of people who were almost stunted because they were so
intelligent that the colleges they attended actually worked against them.
Albert Einstein and Thomas Edison come to mind as examples.

On the other hand, a lot of people benefit from college on two main levels:

o college teaches them (or tries to teach them) how to learn on their
  own
o college exposes them to things that they would not normally 
investigate
  on their own

Finally, some employers look at college degrees as a "litmus test" of whether
or not someone can start a four-year (or two-year) project and commit to its
end.

Many other things in life can substitute for the degree that you get.  Life
experiences have even been acknowledged by colleges themselves as having
equivalent value as courses.  But the degree has been acknowledged as one
main indicator that the person can meet the needs of the corporation.  Not
a guarantee, but an indicator.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
>  I've known plenty of places that hire without a college degree. Hell *I*
> have no college degree and I'm a hiring manager...  

And I have known many people who I respect and acknowledge who have no degrees.
It is the main reason I left Bell Labs.  Certain people inside of Bell Labs
believed that no one had any good ideas unless they had at least a master's
degree.  This idiocy did not directly affect me, since I had my MSCS.  But
when my TAs (some of whom were going at night for their BS) had good ideas, no
one in upper management would even listen to them unless I also gave my
blessing as a Member of Technical Staff.  This pissed me off, so I
took a job with a company that put emphasis on the idea, not the degree the
person had.  That company was Digital Equipment Corporation.

Later on, all four TAs who worked for me at the labs ended up working for
Digital.  Some finished their degrees, some did not.  All were successful
to some extent or another.

I would like to agree with Brian that not having a degree is muted once you get
some experience under your belt, but unless your name is Bill Gates,
Warren Buffet or some other like person, you may still be filtered through an
HR department who may be directed to look for "college graduates".  Then,
ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, you will lose out to the person who has the
degree.  Remember, I said "ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL"the degree may
just be the tie breaker.

You have the inclination to go back and complete your degree.  I recommend
that you follow that inclination.

Warmest regards,

maddog
-- 
Jon "maddog" Hall
Executive Director   Linux International(R)
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 80 Amherst St. 
Voice: +1.603.672.4557   Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A.
WWW: http://www.li.org

Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association

(R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries.
(R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant
   to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus
   Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis
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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Fred]

On Thu, 2004-12-16 at 09:02, Mark Komarinski wrote:
...
> If you want to see taxes, move to NY.  My brother lives in a house valued
> about 1/2 of mine, pays three times the property taxes I do plus a
> separate school tax.  Then there's the 8.25% sales tax and the income tax.
> 
> And that's upstate NY.  It's worse in NYC.
> 
> Taxachusetts indeed.

It's been a lng time since I've live in NYC -- way back around '81.
Still even taxes were pretty high along with the rest of the cost of
living. But then, if you were working in Wall Street, you could afford
it. :-)

-- 
Fred -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- place "[hey]" in your subject.
The mass of humans on planet Earth -- regard them as the ebbing 
seas in the winds of change. They ebb, they flow, they know not 
where to go.

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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Jon maddog Hall]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> Good point. At this point, I'm not really sure I want to leave where I do
> work; I like the environment, and I like the people, and I like being close
> to home, and I like the work I do. But there's something to be said for a pay
> raise, and working for ideals, something I can't do here nearly as much as I
> would be able to there. Working at an advertising firm is just not quite the
> same. 

In 1977 I left my first job at Aetna Life and Casualty.  I had worked there
for almost five years.  I enjoyed the work, the pay was good, management was
decent, not good.  [I will say that twenty-seven years later I am still looking
for that "good management"]

I went to teach at a small, two-year technical college.  I took a 1/3 cut
in pay to teach there, and I stayed for about four years.  It was the most
rewarding job I ever had.  I left because a flamboyant lifestyle could not be
supported by the salary, and I was 2X my yearly salary in debt.  My first year
with Bell Laboratories fixed that issue.

Other jobs have had other benefits.  Even though I spent 16 years at Digital,
I had many different jobs inside the company, all dealing with Unix, or that
which was to replace Unix (and that was not to be WNT).

And certainly my work with Linux has come in a close second, but I will always
remember the impact that I had on those college kids, even the ones that did
not make it through the program.

Only you can help you with the final choice of taking the job.  But again,
if you don't apply, you will never know what could have been.

md
-- 
Jon "maddog" Hall
Executive Director   Linux International(R)
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 80 Amherst St. 
Voice: +1.603.672.4557   Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A.
WWW: http://www.li.org

Board Member: Uniforum Association, USENIX Association

(R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several countries.
(R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used pursuant
   to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized licensor of Linus
   Torvalds, owner of the Linux trademark on a worldwide basis
(R)UNIX is a registered trademark of The Open Group in the USA and other
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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Fred]

On Fri, 2004-12-17 at 22:10, Jon maddog Hall wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> > Frankly, if I did that, I'd demand to vote in MA or refuse to pay the  state
> > income tax. 
> 
> That type of action only worked one time.  Something about dumping tea in the
> harbor.

This time, it'll have to be the Mass politicians and bureaucrats.

> md

-- Fred

Why don't we ever have a WAR on WAR?


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Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin

[Bill McGonigle]

On Dec 16, 2004, at 7:27 AM, Christopher Schmidt wrote:
You people all complain about low pay, but it still pays 1.5x as much 
as
I'm getting for doing sysadmin+coding work at my current job. Maybe I
should look for something different...
And the cost of living in Cambridge is pretty tough so the FSF job may 
be similar in pay, but either way I can't see how you could ever buy a 
house or raise a family on that kind of money.  i.e. you're not making 
enough.

Somewhere to start for comparison:
 http://tinyurl.com/6dqvl
(Then again, not many programming jobs are five minutes away, have an
in-office mike and ike dispenser, a foosball table, and a MAME-based
stand up arcade machine...)
These tend to show up in places where programmers are overworked and 
underpaid.  If you're working 9-5 you don't have time for foosball.

-Bill
-
Bill McGonigle, Owner   Work: 603.448.4440
BFC Computing, LLC  Home: 603.448.1668
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   Cell: 603.252.2606
http://www.bfccomputing.com/Text: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AIM: wpmcgonigleSkype: bill_mcgonigle
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Taxes (Was: Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin)

[Travis Roy]

Thing I don't understand are the people who live in NH, but work in MA. 
Frankly, if I did that, I'd demand to vote in MA or refuse to pay the 
state income tax.
That's nothing. When I was unemployed looking for ANY work I was looking 
for work in Maine. They tax your income based on your federal taxes.

Well I file jointly with my wife. That means that they would tax our 
joint income for the state income tax in Maine.

So Dale's income would be subject to Maine income tax, even with her 
working in NH, and never -EVER- stepping foot in Maine.

Their tax system is all screwy too.
There are people fighting this and not currently paying taxes. But it's 
been going on for years, and if they lose then they have to pay all the 
back taxes they haven't been paying.
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Re: Taxes (Was: Re: FSF looking for Sys Admin)

[Fred]

On Mon, 2004-12-20 at 11:47, Travis Roy wrote:
> > Thing I don't understand are the people who live in NH, but work in MA. 
> > Frankly, if I did that, I'd demand to vote in MA or refuse to pay the 
> > state income tax.

I was doing that for a while -- paying Mass taxes whilst living in NH. 
When you're being W2ed, there's not a whole lot you can do about it. I
did feel like fighting the issue, but bigger fish came along to fry...

> That's nothing. When I was unemployed looking for ANY work I was looking 
> for work in Maine. They tax your income based on your federal taxes.
> 
> Well I file jointly with my wife. That means that they would tax our 
> joint income for the state income tax in Maine.
> 
> So Dale's income would be subject to Maine income tax, even with her 
> working in NH, and never -EVER- stepping foot in Maine.

That would make me furious.

Here's something you might try -- it's in the "grey" area, so I didn't
say this. Don't know if it will work, but should. File your federal
separately, file Maine's taxes on that basis, then refile your federal
jointly and quietly. 

General Disclaimer: I just said that for amusement purposes only. 

> Their tax system is all screwy too.

A friend of mine relocated there, but then I think he "retired", so is
probably not too bothered by the screwy taxes.

> There are people fighting this and not currently paying taxes. But it's 
> been going on for years, and if they lose then they have to pay all the 
> back taxes they haven't been paying.

As always one must choose one's battles carefully. Sometimes a quiet
grey approach is better than a head-on confrontation. At least there's
no litigation fees and headaches, and the worst possible outcome is that
you'll just have to pay back the differences. Well, amusing to think
about anyway.
-- 
-- Fred

Why don't we ever have a WAR on WAR?


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